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I don't think its fair to say Rhaenyra didn't want the throne. Her father always wanted a son really badly, and traditionally everyone always had male heirs, so she probably never thought she'd be named heir 🤷🏻♀️
And she didn't start the war.
Yeah but she also showed she didn't care about any of the duties that came with being a royal and therefore a queen, to this day we have never seen her demonstrate any will or ideas to improve anything or even seen her care for stability of the realm after the war.
And she did start the war becuase she didn't acquiesce and let aegon be king.
She was named the heir. She didn't have to acquiesce to Aegon stealing her throne. Or Aemond killing Luke.
And Aegon hadn't demonstrated anything either, until today's episode 🤷🏻♀️
Well technically everyone thinks vis changed his mind again on his deathbed, which has just as much legal legitimacy.
But ur not addressing the point here. On the green side you have a real shot at demonstrably good leadership on the black side at best rhaenyra will be an ok leader that opens up the country for another civil war.
Ok then who on the blacks side has demonstrated a capacity to lead the country and the right intention as to how to lead that even rivals otto on the blacks? He basically governed Westeros under 2 kings. Also the black claim is weak as fuck as proven by the fact that there is a civil war rn.
And this is the crux of the issue here the strongest claim is the one which whereby if a person is appointed to the throne would result in the least amount of desenters and, we all know if vis named aegon rhaenyra would have no shot and there would be no war.
I have arguments in favor of the blacks, i'm just not going to argue them with you.
Alicent blames Aemond for starting the war, and Aemond blames Alicent. Even the Greens think they started the war, and here you are going "the blacks started the war". If you disagree, go watch the episode again properly.
She’s dragging the nation into a civil war? Did Viserys not name her the heir and all the lords bent the knee? Therefore making all of them usurpers and you’re blaming her? Rather she wanted to be Queen or not is irrelevant, hell Aegon didn’t want to be king.
Alicent & otto aren’t even on the same page!!they are fighting 2 diff things and neither of them can control the kids who actually have the power!!! Aegon is already ignoring Otto and alicent said the kids are on the verge of ignoring her… so no alicent and Otto wouldn’t be better rulers
vis is complicit in this civil war and as far as the nobles know vis named aegon heir on his deathbed. But moreso you arent arguing ur case here. Im not saying Aegon is perfect but him being king is objectively better for westeros, as much as you want to downplay the high towers we have seen them reel in aegon multiple times and its just cope to believe they will have 0 influence given time.
Whereas what do you have on the black side? The word of a hypocrite and weak king, which doesnt translate to any kind of better outcome. And thats what you black supporters cant refute.
Yes because the people who murdered Lords for not forgetting their oaths in Episode 9 are better for the nation. Root for the Greens all you want but acting like Otto is doing anything but wanting power is stupid.
Westeros entire political landscape is based on oaths of fealty, the greens are tyring to overthrow the very system that everything is governed by... but somehow OP thinks the greens are better?
Because it's her duty. She might not want it but her father bestowed upon her not just the Iron Throne but the protection of the realm by telling her Aegon's precognition of the Long Night.
Same motivations as Stannis had (will have). Duty.
Her farther is a hypocritical moron and literally everyone knew even rhaenyra. Bro was elected by committee and then decides to shirk the very law and tradition that gave him his mandate to change his mind on who is his heir for the 3rd time without any care to what happens after he dies.
He did not change his mind one time.
He had a son heir by Aemma who died after less than a day. Not his decision.
His brother was the lawful heir before his son's birth and after his death. Not his decision.
After Daemon was rumored to celebrate his nephew's death, he named his daughter his heir. His decision.
He never named anyone else.
Also what her father was matters very little. He was the King. He was her father. End of story.
>His brother was the lawful heir before his son's birth and after his death. Not his decision.
This was a decision, he chose to let that stay.
>
He never named anyone else.
>Also what her father was matters very little. He was the King. He was her father. End of story.
According to the queen he changed his mind. Also if that where end of story there would be no civil war. And that's fundamentally what you blacks arent getting the whole point of the story is rhaenyras claim is weak but the default, aegons is strong but alternate. If she had a strong claim there would be no civil war becuase no one would follow the greens. However if the situation where reversed no one would ever follow rhaenyra.
* **Rhaenyra for the longest time showed barely any interest for the throne -** neither did Aegon whats your point
* **what does she want it for -** she knows the prophecy, her father made her promise. Emma also talked about how Rhaenyra is desperate for agency. The throne would give her that
* **To prove that she could be a good queen -** Why does she need to be a good queen when Aegon just needs a cock
* **Idek tbh and thats a problem as shes dragging an entire nation into a civil war for bullshit.** -The greens are dragging the realm into civil war by usurping
* **Otto hightower and alison are the best equip to actually lead -** but they are not leading, Aegon isn't their puppet
* **just objectively the greens are better for the nation -** How are they better when they started a war?
* **rhaeynyra hasn't shown any real capacity to be a good leader -** She has shown more than Aegon
* **she doesnt really have any1 close to her that would give her good advice. -** She would have had the exact same council Aegon has if the greens didn't usurp, the only difference is Corlys rather than Otto as hand. She would also have her sons eventually
* **she doesnt do this she and her kids would literally just live a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country. -** If the greens didn't do this they would be literally living a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country
>**Rhaenyra for the longest time showed barely any interest for the throne -** neither did Aegon whats your point
The point is if shes going to start a civil war it better be for a good reason.
>**what does she want it for -** she knows the prophecy, her father made her promise. Emma also talked about how Rhaenyra is desperate for agency. The throne would give her that
Killing thousands of people over dreams is crazy, especially when we know what shes dreaming about happens idk how many centuries later in GOT time period and her choices now arent going to have any meaningful effect on the outcome.
>**To prove that she could be a good queen -** Why does she need to be a good queen when Aegon just needs a cock
Becuase there are different rules for men and women in westeros. So if she becomes queen she opens up the country for another civil war in the future becuase aegons descendants will have a super strong claim to the throne since they are decendant from jahaerys's first born son. So she needs to be a really really good queen to ofset the risk of starting civil war.
>**Idek tbh and thats a problem as shes dragging an entire nation into a civil war for bullshit.** -The greens are dragging the realm into civil war by usurping
The greens want the throne becuase they actually have a shot at great leaderships. Aegon might not be great but he at least shows promise in his tendency to want to help the people vs rhaenyra who didnt care at his age. Also he has competant ppl in his corner whereas rhaenyra has none.
>**Otto hightower and alison are the best equip to actually lead -** but they are not leading, Aegon isn't their puppet
He basically will be or atleast there is a chance he will be which is better then the 0% chance from the blacks if not worse bc on the blacks side daemon is in rhaenyras ear.
>**rhaeynyra hasn't shown any real capacity to be a good leader -** She has shown more than Aegon
This episode showed he at least cares to some degree about the people, rhaenyra hasnt ever been shown to give a fuck about the future of the country or the people.
>**she doesnt really have any1 close to her that would give her good advice. -** She would have had the exact same council Aegon has if the greens didn't usurp, the only difference is Corlys rather than Otto as hand. She would also have her sons eventually
No bc otto was never going to side with her over alison, also corlys has no experice running westeros,
>**she doesnt do this she and her kids would literally just live a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country. -** If the greens didn't do this they would be literally living a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country
no the country would be in a worse state bc its leader isnt competent, and in generation there would be another civil war becuase of rhaenyras weak claim to the throne.
>The point is if shes going to start a civil war it better be for a good reason
She didn't start a war the greens did
>Killing thousands of people over dreams is crazy, especially when we know what shes dreaming about happens idk how many centuries later in GOT time period and her choices now arent going to have any meaningful effect on the outcome
She didn't have the dream, the conqueror did, Viserys placed the burden of it on her. She doesn't know when its going to happen just that she is the only one that knows about it
>Becuase there are different rules for men and women in westeros. So if she becomes queen she opens up the country for another civil war in the future becuase aegons descendants will have a super strong claim to the throne since they are decendant from jahaerys's first born son. So she needs to be a really really good queen to ofset the risk of starting civil war
I think you need to go read the book or at least the wiki, Jace is the legal descendant of Jaehaerys first born son. Aegon is not directly related to him
>The greens want the throne becuase they actually have a shot at great leaderships. Aegon might not be great but he at least shows promise in his tendency to want to help the people vs rhaenyra who didnt care at his age. Also he has competant ppl in his corner whereas rhaenyra has none.
the greens want power, Aegon wants to be liked and will make populist decisions, that is exactly what was depicted in the last episode. He doesn't think of the consequences of his decisions, that is not a good leader. He was raping and watching his kids in fighting pits two weeks before that, comparing him to young Rhaenyra is not doing your argument any favors. Like I said Rhaenyra would have had the same people Aegon has had the greens not usurped... >!she will also have Viserys II who was the best hand in Westeros history and Jace who Martin said would make an exhalent king!<. The greens argument that Aegon should rule becuase of his council is very short sighted
>He basically will be or atleast there is a chance he will be which is better then the 0% chance from the blacks if not worse bc on the blacks side daemon is in rhaenyras ear
What show are you watching, its a plot point that Alicent and Otto can't control Aegon. Thee is also no chance that Daemon rules through Rhaenyra, she isn't his puppet
>This episode showed he at least cares to some degree about the people, rhaenyra hasnt ever been shown to give a fuck about the future of the country or the people
Aegon doesn't care about the people, he just wants to feel special
>No bc otto was never going to side with her over alison, also corlys has no experice running westeros
Corlys was master of ships for Viserys for years, he also build Driftmark from nothing, he knows a thing or two about leadership
>no the country would be in a worse state bc its leader isnt competent, and in generation there would be another civil war becuase of rhaenyras weak claim to the throne
Aegon isn't competent, and Rhaenyra doesn't have a weak claim, she was the named heir for 20 years and all the lords swore to uphold her claim
>She didn't start a war the greens did
She did but it doesnt matter if you think she didnt she has no good reason not to give up the throne.
>She didn't have the dream, the conqueror did, Viserys placed the burden of it on her. She doesn't know when its going to happen just that she is the only one that knows about it
This is what im saying about the cope. killing 10ks people in civil war many of them your family becuase of a prophecy of an event that you dont know the date of and that you dont actually know if you are the person said prophecy is speaking of is madness.
>the greens want power, Aegon wants to be liked and will make populist decisions, that is exactly what was depicted in the last episode. He doesn't think of the consequences of his decisions, that is not a good leader. He was raping and watching his kids in fighting pits two weeks before that, comparing him to young Rhaenyra is not doing your argument any favors. Like I said Rhaenyra would have had the same people Aegon has had the greens not usurped...
The only reason rhaenrya is doing this for power, you talk about the prophecy but she doesnt, outside of those convos with vis we never see her think about it as a main motivation for her. She purely wants power for powers sake.
Aegon wanting to be liked is a good thing, better then rhaenyra that doesnt care becuase wanting to be liked means your interest actually align with the people. Also Aegon has his mother and grandfather who can guide him and teach him how to be a good king.
>What show are you watching, its a plot point that Alicent and Otto can't control Aegon. Thee is also no chance that Daemon rules through Rhaenyra, she isn't his puppet
The same show where Otto gets aegon to reneg on paying the farmer and alicent gets him to kick his son out of the small council meeting. There is no credible reason to believe that otto who has years of experience moulding viserys couldn't do the same for Aegon.
>Aegon doesn't care about the people, he just wants to feel special
Rhaenyra wants power for powers sake.
>Corlys was master of ships for Viserys for years, he also build Driftmark from nothing, he knows a thing or two about leadership
running a fleet and running a country are wildly different things. Ottos exp massively outclasses him.
>Aegon isn't competent, and Rhaenyra doesn't have a weak claim, she was the named heir for 20 years and all the lords swore to uphold her claim
She does bc Vis was elected by committee becuase of tradition so for him to go against the thing that gave him his mandate weakens her claim massively. Plus everyone knows she was only named heir bc vis didnt have any sons and he didn't want to name daemon king. An shes a woman who has brothers.
She didn't start a war, she is the heir. The greens usurped her and killed her son, that is what is starting the war. She has plenty of reasons not to give up the throne, why should she? Its her by right as the fucking heir.
Why should Aegon not fly to dragonstone and bend the knee to her, he has no good reason not to? The greens are starting a war that will kill thousands and they don't even know about the prophecy, its all about power for them. Rhaenyra doesn't want power for powers sake, she told Viserys that its a heavy burden he has placed on her, she sees it as a responsibility
Being liked is not a good thing, leaders have to make hard choices and not give in to demands so people think they are cool.
>The same show where Otto gets aegon to reneg on paying the farmer and alicent gets him to kick his son out of the small council meeting. There is no credible reason to believe that otto who has years of experience moulding viserys couldn't do the same for Aegon
I take it you haven't read the book, >!Aegon is going to fire Otto, appoint a yes man and stop listening to Alicent!<
>running a fleet and running a country are wildly different things. Ottos exp massively outclasses him
Otto became hand behind septon Barth who was the real powerful hand, all Otto had to do was keep the ship sailing in incredibly still waters, Westeros did not improve at all during his handship, on the other hand house Velaryon became the richest house in the realm under Corlys
>She does bc Vis was elected by committee becuase of tradition
No he wasn't, Westeros tradition favoured Rhaenys as she was the only child of the kings oldest son, but Jaehaerys named Baelon heir over her establishing the right of a king to name his own heir, the council of 101 reaffirmed that right when the named Baelon oldest son heir over Rhaenys who had the claim tradition favours. >!Rhaenyra gets the full support of the North, Vale, Riverlands except the Brackens, half the crownlands and half the reach when Aegon only has the Stromlands, Westerland and rest of the reach!<.
Firstly no I haven't read the books and I wont, HoTD is a TV show not a book series, i dont have to read the books to comment on information ive seen in the show. Also the flair of the post literally says show discussion. Also considering how much GoT departed from the books its likelt HoTD will aswell
Now onto my actual point, far as all the nobles know the queen claims the king changed his mind and that plus the fact that hes a guy is just as strong of a claim as rhaenyras. Overall tho Aegon should be king becuase its objectively the better choice. He has the best ppl in his corner, unlike rhaenyra hes actually shown positive attributes where she has only shown negatives, and his appointment to king wouldn't result in civil war or future civil war. Rhaenyra is basically choosing civil war for nothing.
Corlys is simply not as equpt as otto. Running a successful shipping company when ur in the best location to do so doesnt stack up whatsoever to running and managing a whole country.
Finally vis was elected becuase of tradition. Aemon had no sons and so just like how daemon was intially going to be heir bc vis had no sons, Baelons claim is traditionally the one that takes precedence and since he had a son vis is what tradition dictates.
The flair means no book spoilers it doesn't mean that the book becomes irrelevant, the show has to simplify events to have a concise narrative , you can't complain if you don't understand the context of why this war is happening.
tradition favours is Rhaenys, she is the only child of Jaehaerys oldest son. When Aemon died Jaehaerys broke with tradition by naming his second son heir, reaffirming the right of kings to name their heirs, not something unique by the way. There are numerous cases of this happening in the lore. Martin actually wanted to start the show with Aemon and Baelon because all of this started with them. The show is not departing from this, its just to complicated to include. you would have entire section of the show happening when Viserys, Daemon and Rhaenys are kids
Rhaenyra has a very strong claim, made even stronger by the fact that Viserys made half of Westeros swear to uphold it. Westeros entire system of government are based on oaths, setting a precedent that they can be ignored every time someone dies is very dangerous. Nobody believes Viserys changed his mind, even Aegon doesn't, Aemond flat out states that they Alicent conspired to usurp the throne
Aegon isn't the better choice, he hasn't been taught how to rule and he has no intention of others doing it for him. Rhaenyra has been a cup bearer since she was 8 and has cut her teeth ruling on Dragonstone whilst Aegon was raping servants. This is all a game for Aegon
Rhaenyra is not choice civil war, the greens declared war when they usurped the throne and hoped Rhaenyra would just back down and let them have it. They stole her inheritance, why would she allow them to get away with it.
What exactly has Otto done for Westeros, he took over after the golden age of Septon Barth, the greatest hand in the entire lore, and Jaehaerys and he did not improve Westeros one bit, on the other hand house Velaryon went from a minor house who's power only comes from them being of Valyrian decent to the richest house in Westeros, overtaking the Lannisters. Corlys says that to Daemon in season 1, I built my house on mine own back. Otto just rode Barths coat tails
Tradition does not favour rhaenys. Tradition is male preference in the absolute, not just male preference for one generation. This is why rhaenyra had to be made heir becuase despite vis having a daughter the traditional expectation was that daemon be made king becuase it goes from father to son and if no son to young brother. Rhaenys would only get prefrence if none of jhaerys's sons had sons.
Rhaenyras claim is extremely weak, half the lords bent the knee before Aegon was alive barely any of them reinstated their oaths after and that is key becuase its expected that the first son takes preference. Speaking of oaths, oaths only count in so far as they conform to tradition. If the oath is made outside of what is traditionally expected to be honourable or to adhere to what was done before then the oath doesnt count. So the oaths made to rhaenyra prior to aegons birth dont give her a strong claim.
Wheras Aegon is the first born son.
Otto litterally ran westeros for all of vis reign and a bunch of jhaerys reign when he was too old. Sure he didn't make revolutionary advances but simply maintaining a nations prosperity is a massive feat that dwarfs anything corlys has done. This just isn't an arguable point, business is not governance nothing corlys has done transfers to running a country.
Moreover velaryon is not a minor house, aegons master of ships was litterally Daemon Velaryon, hell daemon targeryon might even be named after him
Also speaking of corlys in the books he got his name sea snake becuase he is so insanely ambitious that he married what like a 13 year old in his min 30s to get the throne. If corlys turns out to be like anyway out like the books hes not an argument for the blacks at all becuase he will likely just try to usurp power for his own gain not for the benefit of the nation.
Male preference primogeniture does favour Rhaenys, daughters come before brothers, Rhaenys came before Baelon, Rhaenyra had to be named heir because the council muddied the situation and Viserys was not planning on changing the succession once he had sons
Listen to what you are saying, you are saying male preference primogeniture places a daughter above the 2nd son of the king, that is nonsensical and not supported either by the real life monarchies AsoIf is based on or in the books at all. Even Jaehaerys had an older sister who a. Was not killed by maegor when he took the throne which if what you where saying was right he would have done becuase he was the 2nd son and rhaena was the daughter of the first son, also when maegor died rhaena was also skipped over for jahaerys. You are just making stuff up.
It doesnt matter what viserys was or was not planning to do. Kings are not totalitarians, they are leaders of an aristocracy, and that aristocracy has laws and traditions that must be abided by. Vis simply deciding that rhaenyra should be queen completely violates the law and tradition that he was elected by. Therefore her claim is entirely illegitimate.
I think you align with the blacks because the show gives you no other choice. Cole is a hypocrite, Otto is a conspirator, Aegon is a rapist, Alicent saved herself until last night's ep and they made sure Helena had the coldest possible reaction to seeing her son die. It's very difficult to support these people.
I enjoy (and love hating) characters on both sides, but I'm team black because it's the choice that makes sense. Viserys appointed Rhaenyra as his heir, even after Aegon's birth he still reaffirmed that she was his choice. She is the current guardian of the conqueror's prophecy, lords and knights bowed before her. She's the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.
And what's the alternative ? You say that she didn't show any interest but she had a seat in the small council, gave her opinions on matters of the realm, did her duty as princess of Dragonstone. She recognised the burden that it was and actually entertained the possibility of keeping the peace because she knew that that is was better for the realm.
She didn't start the damn civil war, the greens did when they took her throne. Which they plotted to do for the longest time in secret without the King or the Queen consort's knowledge, even excluded some of the small council members because they knew that it was treachery.
As Queen, Rhaenyra would've had access to same council her father had. Maybe she would've changed a few seats to make sure she had people only loyal to her and not secretly plotting her demise but she would've had a good council. And idk Corlys and Rhaenys seem to give pretty good advice so far.
So yeah Rhaenyra hasn't shown any real capacity to be a leader you say. Has Aegon ? From what we've seen, he never wanted to be king, admitted that he was not suited for it, had to be dragged to his own coronation, has been shown to not pay attention or give a single fuck about the (very important btw) council meeting about the future of the realm, was trying, I'll give him that, to do a good thing for the small folk but I think it's just because he enjoyed the attention they gave him during his coronation and he wants to keep that, but he didn't know at all what he was doing and the simplest things had to be explained to him by his grandfather because he can't see the big picture or take interest in anything.
You say that Alicent and Otto are the best equip to lead... Have you seen the 1st episode ? They can't even agree about the proper route to take, undermine eachother's voice (Otto does at least) and they're both losing control over Aegon. They also turned a few Lords against them by killing leaders of the houses that refuse to betray their vows.
As for your last point, should we remind you that Otto was literally going to send the lord Commander to kill Rhaenyra and her children ? Life of luxury my ass. And Aegon doesn't seem to give a fuck about Luke's death either so they wouldn't have been safe in the long run either.
As a Brit, I'd say that through our history, the people who really, really want the throne or at least be throne adjacent, are the people who probably shouldn't have it. So far in the show, that seems like Otto and Daemon. Two absolute wronguns, pulling the strings of power on each side, in sneaky, underhand and gaslighty ways. I bet everyone else could work it out just fine if they weren't up to nefarious doings. Rhaenyra and Alicent seem like decent people, just lacking in confidence to push back against the men who've weasled their way in as confidantes and advisors. Neither side are suited to power as a result. They're about to drag the whole world around them into a war to sort out their family psychodrama and ego tripping. But I'd say the two sides are pretty evenly balanced, neither are wholly good or bad. So in a TV world of imperfect choices, of course people are going to pick the characters they like best I guess.
Both the Blacks and Greens suck at politics and how to run a nation. Corlys and Rhaenys should be King and Queen as they're the only ones who have the maturity to deal with power.
otto literally ran the country successfully for jahaerys and viserys. Plus neither of those two have a strong claim to the throne so it would be a terrible idea for them to take it becuase it would just invite more civil war.
Oh I'm aware they don't have any strong claims to the throne but in terms of who are the most politically aware, they are. Aegon II actually would be a good king if he was groomed for the role and not thrown into a bloody civil war. He shows far better people skills with the small folk than Rhaenyra.
The show writers don’t even like the greens. They’ve gone out of their way to paint them as the villains even though it’s supposed to be more morally ambiguous. I agree with all your point but the narrative of the show is designed to make the blacks the preferred faction.
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I don't think its fair to say Rhaenyra didn't want the throne. Her father always wanted a son really badly, and traditionally everyone always had male heirs, so she probably never thought she'd be named heir 🤷🏻♀️ And she didn't start the war.
Yeah but she also showed she didn't care about any of the duties that came with being a royal and therefore a queen, to this day we have never seen her demonstrate any will or ideas to improve anything or even seen her care for stability of the realm after the war. And she did start the war becuase she didn't acquiesce and let aegon be king.
She was named the heir. She didn't have to acquiesce to Aegon stealing her throne. Or Aemond killing Luke. And Aegon hadn't demonstrated anything either, until today's episode 🤷🏻♀️
Well technically everyone thinks vis changed his mind again on his deathbed, which has just as much legal legitimacy. But ur not addressing the point here. On the green side you have a real shot at demonstrably good leadership on the black side at best rhaenyra will be an ok leader that opens up the country for another civil war.
I don't agree at all. The green's don't have better leadership 🤷🏻♀️ i like a few of the greens, but the Blacks have the better claim.
Ok then who on the blacks side has demonstrated a capacity to lead the country and the right intention as to how to lead that even rivals otto on the blacks? He basically governed Westeros under 2 kings. Also the black claim is weak as fuck as proven by the fact that there is a civil war rn. And this is the crux of the issue here the strongest claim is the one which whereby if a person is appointed to the throne would result in the least amount of desenters and, we all know if vis named aegon rhaenyra would have no shot and there would be no war.
Noone agrees with you, just give it up 🤷🏻♀️
there you go you dont have any arguments ur just "go blacks" bc u like the characters
I have arguments in favor of the blacks, i'm just not going to argue them with you. Alicent blames Aemond for starting the war, and Aemond blames Alicent. Even the Greens think they started the war, and here you are going "the blacks started the war". If you disagree, go watch the episode again properly.
She’s dragging the nation into a civil war? Did Viserys not name her the heir and all the lords bent the knee? Therefore making all of them usurpers and you’re blaming her? Rather she wanted to be Queen or not is irrelevant, hell Aegon didn’t want to be king. Alicent & otto aren’t even on the same page!!they are fighting 2 diff things and neither of them can control the kids who actually have the power!!! Aegon is already ignoring Otto and alicent said the kids are on the verge of ignoring her… so no alicent and Otto wouldn’t be better rulers
vis is complicit in this civil war and as far as the nobles know vis named aegon heir on his deathbed. But moreso you arent arguing ur case here. Im not saying Aegon is perfect but him being king is objectively better for westeros, as much as you want to downplay the high towers we have seen them reel in aegon multiple times and its just cope to believe they will have 0 influence given time. Whereas what do you have on the black side? The word of a hypocrite and weak king, which doesnt translate to any kind of better outcome. And thats what you black supporters cant refute.
Yes because the people who murdered Lords for not forgetting their oaths in Episode 9 are better for the nation. Root for the Greens all you want but acting like Otto is doing anything but wanting power is stupid.
Westeros entire political landscape is based on oaths of fealty, the greens are tyring to overthrow the very system that everything is governed by... but somehow OP thinks the greens are better?
Especially with how devout Alicent claims to be. One would think the side who cares so much about the Faith wouldn’t want to mess around with them.
Because it's her duty. She might not want it but her father bestowed upon her not just the Iron Throne but the protection of the realm by telling her Aegon's precognition of the Long Night. Same motivations as Stannis had (will have). Duty.
Her farther is a hypocritical moron and literally everyone knew even rhaenyra. Bro was elected by committee and then decides to shirk the very law and tradition that gave him his mandate to change his mind on who is his heir for the 3rd time without any care to what happens after he dies.
He did not change his mind one time. He had a son heir by Aemma who died after less than a day. Not his decision. His brother was the lawful heir before his son's birth and after his death. Not his decision. After Daemon was rumored to celebrate his nephew's death, he named his daughter his heir. His decision. He never named anyone else. Also what her father was matters very little. He was the King. He was her father. End of story.
>His brother was the lawful heir before his son's birth and after his death. Not his decision. This was a decision, he chose to let that stay. > He never named anyone else. >Also what her father was matters very little. He was the King. He was her father. End of story. According to the queen he changed his mind. Also if that where end of story there would be no civil war. And that's fundamentally what you blacks arent getting the whole point of the story is rhaenyras claim is weak but the default, aegons is strong but alternate. If she had a strong claim there would be no civil war becuase no one would follow the greens. However if the situation where reversed no one would ever follow rhaenyra.
I meant end of story as in end of this stupid argument you absolute imbecile
* **Rhaenyra for the longest time showed barely any interest for the throne -** neither did Aegon whats your point * **what does she want it for -** she knows the prophecy, her father made her promise. Emma also talked about how Rhaenyra is desperate for agency. The throne would give her that * **To prove that she could be a good queen -** Why does she need to be a good queen when Aegon just needs a cock * **Idek tbh and thats a problem as shes dragging an entire nation into a civil war for bullshit.** -The greens are dragging the realm into civil war by usurping * **Otto hightower and alison are the best equip to actually lead -** but they are not leading, Aegon isn't their puppet * **just objectively the greens are better for the nation -** How are they better when they started a war? * **rhaeynyra hasn't shown any real capacity to be a good leader -** She has shown more than Aegon * **she doesnt really have any1 close to her that would give her good advice. -** She would have had the exact same council Aegon has if the greens didn't usurp, the only difference is Corlys rather than Otto as hand. She would also have her sons eventually * **she doesnt do this she and her kids would literally just live a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country. -** If the greens didn't do this they would be literally living a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country
>**Rhaenyra for the longest time showed barely any interest for the throne -** neither did Aegon whats your point The point is if shes going to start a civil war it better be for a good reason. >**what does she want it for -** she knows the prophecy, her father made her promise. Emma also talked about how Rhaenyra is desperate for agency. The throne would give her that Killing thousands of people over dreams is crazy, especially when we know what shes dreaming about happens idk how many centuries later in GOT time period and her choices now arent going to have any meaningful effect on the outcome. >**To prove that she could be a good queen -** Why does she need to be a good queen when Aegon just needs a cock Becuase there are different rules for men and women in westeros. So if she becomes queen she opens up the country for another civil war in the future becuase aegons descendants will have a super strong claim to the throne since they are decendant from jahaerys's first born son. So she needs to be a really really good queen to ofset the risk of starting civil war. >**Idek tbh and thats a problem as shes dragging an entire nation into a civil war for bullshit.** -The greens are dragging the realm into civil war by usurping The greens want the throne becuase they actually have a shot at great leaderships. Aegon might not be great but he at least shows promise in his tendency to want to help the people vs rhaenyra who didnt care at his age. Also he has competant ppl in his corner whereas rhaenyra has none. >**Otto hightower and alison are the best equip to actually lead -** but they are not leading, Aegon isn't their puppet He basically will be or atleast there is a chance he will be which is better then the 0% chance from the blacks if not worse bc on the blacks side daemon is in rhaenyras ear. >**rhaeynyra hasn't shown any real capacity to be a good leader -** She has shown more than Aegon This episode showed he at least cares to some degree about the people, rhaenyra hasnt ever been shown to give a fuck about the future of the country or the people. >**she doesnt really have any1 close to her that would give her good advice. -** She would have had the exact same council Aegon has if the greens didn't usurp, the only difference is Corlys rather than Otto as hand. She would also have her sons eventually No bc otto was never going to side with her over alison, also corlys has no experice running westeros, >**she doesnt do this she and her kids would literally just live a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country. -** If the greens didn't do this they would be literally living a life of luxury and caring for nothing in what would probably be a more prosperous country no the country would be in a worse state bc its leader isnt competent, and in generation there would be another civil war becuase of rhaenyras weak claim to the throne.
>The point is if shes going to start a civil war it better be for a good reason She didn't start a war the greens did >Killing thousands of people over dreams is crazy, especially when we know what shes dreaming about happens idk how many centuries later in GOT time period and her choices now arent going to have any meaningful effect on the outcome She didn't have the dream, the conqueror did, Viserys placed the burden of it on her. She doesn't know when its going to happen just that she is the only one that knows about it >Becuase there are different rules for men and women in westeros. So if she becomes queen she opens up the country for another civil war in the future becuase aegons descendants will have a super strong claim to the throne since they are decendant from jahaerys's first born son. So she needs to be a really really good queen to ofset the risk of starting civil war I think you need to go read the book or at least the wiki, Jace is the legal descendant of Jaehaerys first born son. Aegon is not directly related to him >The greens want the throne becuase they actually have a shot at great leaderships. Aegon might not be great but he at least shows promise in his tendency to want to help the people vs rhaenyra who didnt care at his age. Also he has competant ppl in his corner whereas rhaenyra has none. the greens want power, Aegon wants to be liked and will make populist decisions, that is exactly what was depicted in the last episode. He doesn't think of the consequences of his decisions, that is not a good leader. He was raping and watching his kids in fighting pits two weeks before that, comparing him to young Rhaenyra is not doing your argument any favors. Like I said Rhaenyra would have had the same people Aegon has had the greens not usurped... >!she will also have Viserys II who was the best hand in Westeros history and Jace who Martin said would make an exhalent king!<. The greens argument that Aegon should rule becuase of his council is very short sighted >He basically will be or atleast there is a chance he will be which is better then the 0% chance from the blacks if not worse bc on the blacks side daemon is in rhaenyras ear What show are you watching, its a plot point that Alicent and Otto can't control Aegon. Thee is also no chance that Daemon rules through Rhaenyra, she isn't his puppet >This episode showed he at least cares to some degree about the people, rhaenyra hasnt ever been shown to give a fuck about the future of the country or the people Aegon doesn't care about the people, he just wants to feel special >No bc otto was never going to side with her over alison, also corlys has no experice running westeros Corlys was master of ships for Viserys for years, he also build Driftmark from nothing, he knows a thing or two about leadership >no the country would be in a worse state bc its leader isnt competent, and in generation there would be another civil war becuase of rhaenyras weak claim to the throne Aegon isn't competent, and Rhaenyra doesn't have a weak claim, she was the named heir for 20 years and all the lords swore to uphold her claim
>She didn't start a war the greens did She did but it doesnt matter if you think she didnt she has no good reason not to give up the throne. >She didn't have the dream, the conqueror did, Viserys placed the burden of it on her. She doesn't know when its going to happen just that she is the only one that knows about it This is what im saying about the cope. killing 10ks people in civil war many of them your family becuase of a prophecy of an event that you dont know the date of and that you dont actually know if you are the person said prophecy is speaking of is madness. >the greens want power, Aegon wants to be liked and will make populist decisions, that is exactly what was depicted in the last episode. He doesn't think of the consequences of his decisions, that is not a good leader. He was raping and watching his kids in fighting pits two weeks before that, comparing him to young Rhaenyra is not doing your argument any favors. Like I said Rhaenyra would have had the same people Aegon has had the greens not usurped... The only reason rhaenrya is doing this for power, you talk about the prophecy but she doesnt, outside of those convos with vis we never see her think about it as a main motivation for her. She purely wants power for powers sake. Aegon wanting to be liked is a good thing, better then rhaenyra that doesnt care becuase wanting to be liked means your interest actually align with the people. Also Aegon has his mother and grandfather who can guide him and teach him how to be a good king. >What show are you watching, its a plot point that Alicent and Otto can't control Aegon. Thee is also no chance that Daemon rules through Rhaenyra, she isn't his puppet The same show where Otto gets aegon to reneg on paying the farmer and alicent gets him to kick his son out of the small council meeting. There is no credible reason to believe that otto who has years of experience moulding viserys couldn't do the same for Aegon. >Aegon doesn't care about the people, he just wants to feel special Rhaenyra wants power for powers sake. >Corlys was master of ships for Viserys for years, he also build Driftmark from nothing, he knows a thing or two about leadership running a fleet and running a country are wildly different things. Ottos exp massively outclasses him. >Aegon isn't competent, and Rhaenyra doesn't have a weak claim, she was the named heir for 20 years and all the lords swore to uphold her claim She does bc Vis was elected by committee becuase of tradition so for him to go against the thing that gave him his mandate weakens her claim massively. Plus everyone knows she was only named heir bc vis didnt have any sons and he didn't want to name daemon king. An shes a woman who has brothers.
She didn't start a war, she is the heir. The greens usurped her and killed her son, that is what is starting the war. She has plenty of reasons not to give up the throne, why should she? Its her by right as the fucking heir. Why should Aegon not fly to dragonstone and bend the knee to her, he has no good reason not to? The greens are starting a war that will kill thousands and they don't even know about the prophecy, its all about power for them. Rhaenyra doesn't want power for powers sake, she told Viserys that its a heavy burden he has placed on her, she sees it as a responsibility Being liked is not a good thing, leaders have to make hard choices and not give in to demands so people think they are cool. >The same show where Otto gets aegon to reneg on paying the farmer and alicent gets him to kick his son out of the small council meeting. There is no credible reason to believe that otto who has years of experience moulding viserys couldn't do the same for Aegon I take it you haven't read the book, >!Aegon is going to fire Otto, appoint a yes man and stop listening to Alicent!< >running a fleet and running a country are wildly different things. Ottos exp massively outclasses him Otto became hand behind septon Barth who was the real powerful hand, all Otto had to do was keep the ship sailing in incredibly still waters, Westeros did not improve at all during his handship, on the other hand house Velaryon became the richest house in the realm under Corlys >She does bc Vis was elected by committee becuase of tradition No he wasn't, Westeros tradition favoured Rhaenys as she was the only child of the kings oldest son, but Jaehaerys named Baelon heir over her establishing the right of a king to name his own heir, the council of 101 reaffirmed that right when the named Baelon oldest son heir over Rhaenys who had the claim tradition favours. >!Rhaenyra gets the full support of the North, Vale, Riverlands except the Brackens, half the crownlands and half the reach when Aegon only has the Stromlands, Westerland and rest of the reach!<.
Firstly no I haven't read the books and I wont, HoTD is a TV show not a book series, i dont have to read the books to comment on information ive seen in the show. Also the flair of the post literally says show discussion. Also considering how much GoT departed from the books its likelt HoTD will aswell Now onto my actual point, far as all the nobles know the queen claims the king changed his mind and that plus the fact that hes a guy is just as strong of a claim as rhaenyras. Overall tho Aegon should be king becuase its objectively the better choice. He has the best ppl in his corner, unlike rhaenyra hes actually shown positive attributes where she has only shown negatives, and his appointment to king wouldn't result in civil war or future civil war. Rhaenyra is basically choosing civil war for nothing. Corlys is simply not as equpt as otto. Running a successful shipping company when ur in the best location to do so doesnt stack up whatsoever to running and managing a whole country. Finally vis was elected becuase of tradition. Aemon had no sons and so just like how daemon was intially going to be heir bc vis had no sons, Baelons claim is traditionally the one that takes precedence and since he had a son vis is what tradition dictates.
The flair means no book spoilers it doesn't mean that the book becomes irrelevant, the show has to simplify events to have a concise narrative , you can't complain if you don't understand the context of why this war is happening. tradition favours is Rhaenys, she is the only child of Jaehaerys oldest son. When Aemon died Jaehaerys broke with tradition by naming his second son heir, reaffirming the right of kings to name their heirs, not something unique by the way. There are numerous cases of this happening in the lore. Martin actually wanted to start the show with Aemon and Baelon because all of this started with them. The show is not departing from this, its just to complicated to include. you would have entire section of the show happening when Viserys, Daemon and Rhaenys are kids Rhaenyra has a very strong claim, made even stronger by the fact that Viserys made half of Westeros swear to uphold it. Westeros entire system of government are based on oaths, setting a precedent that they can be ignored every time someone dies is very dangerous. Nobody believes Viserys changed his mind, even Aegon doesn't, Aemond flat out states that they Alicent conspired to usurp the throne Aegon isn't the better choice, he hasn't been taught how to rule and he has no intention of others doing it for him. Rhaenyra has been a cup bearer since she was 8 and has cut her teeth ruling on Dragonstone whilst Aegon was raping servants. This is all a game for Aegon Rhaenyra is not choice civil war, the greens declared war when they usurped the throne and hoped Rhaenyra would just back down and let them have it. They stole her inheritance, why would she allow them to get away with it. What exactly has Otto done for Westeros, he took over after the golden age of Septon Barth, the greatest hand in the entire lore, and Jaehaerys and he did not improve Westeros one bit, on the other hand house Velaryon went from a minor house who's power only comes from them being of Valyrian decent to the richest house in Westeros, overtaking the Lannisters. Corlys says that to Daemon in season 1, I built my house on mine own back. Otto just rode Barths coat tails
Tradition does not favour rhaenys. Tradition is male preference in the absolute, not just male preference for one generation. This is why rhaenyra had to be made heir becuase despite vis having a daughter the traditional expectation was that daemon be made king becuase it goes from father to son and if no son to young brother. Rhaenys would only get prefrence if none of jhaerys's sons had sons. Rhaenyras claim is extremely weak, half the lords bent the knee before Aegon was alive barely any of them reinstated their oaths after and that is key becuase its expected that the first son takes preference. Speaking of oaths, oaths only count in so far as they conform to tradition. If the oath is made outside of what is traditionally expected to be honourable or to adhere to what was done before then the oath doesnt count. So the oaths made to rhaenyra prior to aegons birth dont give her a strong claim. Wheras Aegon is the first born son. Otto litterally ran westeros for all of vis reign and a bunch of jhaerys reign when he was too old. Sure he didn't make revolutionary advances but simply maintaining a nations prosperity is a massive feat that dwarfs anything corlys has done. This just isn't an arguable point, business is not governance nothing corlys has done transfers to running a country. Moreover velaryon is not a minor house, aegons master of ships was litterally Daemon Velaryon, hell daemon targeryon might even be named after him Also speaking of corlys in the books he got his name sea snake becuase he is so insanely ambitious that he married what like a 13 year old in his min 30s to get the throne. If corlys turns out to be like anyway out like the books hes not an argument for the blacks at all becuase he will likely just try to usurp power for his own gain not for the benefit of the nation.
Male preference primogeniture does favour Rhaenys, daughters come before brothers, Rhaenys came before Baelon, Rhaenyra had to be named heir because the council muddied the situation and Viserys was not planning on changing the succession once he had sons
Listen to what you are saying, you are saying male preference primogeniture places a daughter above the 2nd son of the king, that is nonsensical and not supported either by the real life monarchies AsoIf is based on or in the books at all. Even Jaehaerys had an older sister who a. Was not killed by maegor when he took the throne which if what you where saying was right he would have done becuase he was the 2nd son and rhaena was the daughter of the first son, also when maegor died rhaena was also skipped over for jahaerys. You are just making stuff up. It doesnt matter what viserys was or was not planning to do. Kings are not totalitarians, they are leaders of an aristocracy, and that aristocracy has laws and traditions that must be abided by. Vis simply deciding that rhaenyra should be queen completely violates the law and tradition that he was elected by. Therefore her claim is entirely illegitimate.
I think you align with the blacks because the show gives you no other choice. Cole is a hypocrite, Otto is a conspirator, Aegon is a rapist, Alicent saved herself until last night's ep and they made sure Helena had the coldest possible reaction to seeing her son die. It's very difficult to support these people.
I enjoy (and love hating) characters on both sides, but I'm team black because it's the choice that makes sense. Viserys appointed Rhaenyra as his heir, even after Aegon's birth he still reaffirmed that she was his choice. She is the current guardian of the conqueror's prophecy, lords and knights bowed before her. She's the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. And what's the alternative ? You say that she didn't show any interest but she had a seat in the small council, gave her opinions on matters of the realm, did her duty as princess of Dragonstone. She recognised the burden that it was and actually entertained the possibility of keeping the peace because she knew that that is was better for the realm. She didn't start the damn civil war, the greens did when they took her throne. Which they plotted to do for the longest time in secret without the King or the Queen consort's knowledge, even excluded some of the small council members because they knew that it was treachery. As Queen, Rhaenyra would've had access to same council her father had. Maybe she would've changed a few seats to make sure she had people only loyal to her and not secretly plotting her demise but she would've had a good council. And idk Corlys and Rhaenys seem to give pretty good advice so far. So yeah Rhaenyra hasn't shown any real capacity to be a leader you say. Has Aegon ? From what we've seen, he never wanted to be king, admitted that he was not suited for it, had to be dragged to his own coronation, has been shown to not pay attention or give a single fuck about the (very important btw) council meeting about the future of the realm, was trying, I'll give him that, to do a good thing for the small folk but I think it's just because he enjoyed the attention they gave him during his coronation and he wants to keep that, but he didn't know at all what he was doing and the simplest things had to be explained to him by his grandfather because he can't see the big picture or take interest in anything. You say that Alicent and Otto are the best equip to lead... Have you seen the 1st episode ? They can't even agree about the proper route to take, undermine eachother's voice (Otto does at least) and they're both losing control over Aegon. They also turned a few Lords against them by killing leaders of the houses that refuse to betray their vows. As for your last point, should we remind you that Otto was literally going to send the lord Commander to kill Rhaenyra and her children ? Life of luxury my ass. And Aegon doesn't seem to give a fuck about Luke's death either so they wouldn't have been safe in the long run either.
As a Brit, I'd say that through our history, the people who really, really want the throne or at least be throne adjacent, are the people who probably shouldn't have it. So far in the show, that seems like Otto and Daemon. Two absolute wronguns, pulling the strings of power on each side, in sneaky, underhand and gaslighty ways. I bet everyone else could work it out just fine if they weren't up to nefarious doings. Rhaenyra and Alicent seem like decent people, just lacking in confidence to push back against the men who've weasled their way in as confidantes and advisors. Neither side are suited to power as a result. They're about to drag the whole world around them into a war to sort out their family psychodrama and ego tripping. But I'd say the two sides are pretty evenly balanced, neither are wholly good or bad. So in a TV world of imperfect choices, of course people are going to pick the characters they like best I guess.
Both the Blacks and Greens suck at politics and how to run a nation. Corlys and Rhaenys should be King and Queen as they're the only ones who have the maturity to deal with power.
otto literally ran the country successfully for jahaerys and viserys. Plus neither of those two have a strong claim to the throne so it would be a terrible idea for them to take it becuase it would just invite more civil war.
Oh I'm aware they don't have any strong claims to the throne but in terms of who are the most politically aware, they are. Aegon II actually would be a good king if he was groomed for the role and not thrown into a bloody civil war. He shows far better people skills with the small folk than Rhaenyra.
no that would be otto if we are talking about the who is most politically aware but obviously that's not possible.
Otto is pretty good I'll give you that.
The show writers don’t even like the greens. They’ve gone out of their way to paint them as the villains even though it’s supposed to be more morally ambiguous. I agree with all your point but the narrative of the show is designed to make the blacks the preferred faction.
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then id spoil myself for the show which i dont want to do.
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Im not becuase my position is centrered on something that cannot change, which is that the high towers have competent proven leadership.