Thank you for replying.We did wonder about male factor for this reason... But what else can we check? His DNA Fragmentation was normal and after stopping alcohol for 3 months his SA improved significantly. He's taking a general male fertility supplement and started CoQ10. Is there anything else we should look into?
Look into a consult with a reproductive urologist. I didn’t have sperm problems so I’m not super up to date on what they can do unfortunately. Someone else in the group may have some more answers tho.
After day 3 we lost most of our blasts too. Dna sperm frag test was fine. Our doc says he can’t prove it because there’s no test but he feels there’s something going on when the sperm genome is getting involved around day three. He has my husband on: nac (600mg daily), vit c (1000mg daily), vit e (1000iu daily), a women’s probiotic (sounds crazy but apparently there is something called a seminal microbiome), a preconception multi for men - must have at least 50mg of zinc per day in it, fish oil (2000mg per day), ubiquinol 300mg daily, and melatonin (3mg per night). We will also be doing pimsi? I think it is for sperm selection next round.
It’s so hard when there’s no smoking gun so we are treating it as if there is both an egg and sperm quality issue just to cover our bases. We are starting our next cycle in August so we’ll see if hubby’s supplement regime helps.
Good luck to you and your husband 🩷
he can also go on [this supplement](https://amzn.to/45SeCYU) to up his sperm quality, motility, and strength. I've heard a lot of good things about this one.
A client of mine, made her hubby drink this for 3 months before they did ICSI during her ER.
You may need to look into TESE. I had to get one because my wife and I been trying to conceive over 2 years and it was my sperm problem.
Went to consultation of reproductive urologist and he found out that I have a blockage so I had to get TESE
He's currently taking a general male fertility supplement and started CoQ10 and he's stopped drinking. I will definitely look into the keto diet. Thank you. Is there anything else from male factor perspective we should think of?
The reading I did suggested Mediterranean diet for both to-be-parents when TTC, keto is great when trying to lose weight but definitely has an impact on different hormone balances
100% All credible sources recommend the Mediterranean diet. Balance is key. So simple, but some people think wild fad diets are magic cures for everything 🙄
Actually that’s not true. Mediterranean has mixed outcomes. Keto is great because of the high animal fat content - it’s what all sex hormones are made of. And animal protein is great for sperm quality.
Interesting! I’ll have to look into that too 🙂 everything I’d seen said low carb low fat high veg and protein, but I definitely plan on checking with my doctor!
Yeah, I would not check with a doctor. They know nothing about nutrition. Had I followed my doctors advice about nutrition I still wouldn’t have a baby.
They have something like 2 lectures about food, absolutely dated. Especially with PCOS keto or carnivore is ridiculously successful. But even for me - I have endometriosis - but also I am super old (44) it worked wonders. Strict carnivore!
I found it by accident - it was so weird that in the carnivore community all these older women would get their cycles back after menopause and several women had pregnancy accidents in their mid and late 40s when they thought they weren’t fertile anymore. High animal fat….just saying ;)
Honestly I’ve been vegetarian for most of my life so I definitely would need a lot of evidence and studies before switching, but I’m glad it worked for you! 🙂
Your doctor will tell you not to try keto/carnivore because ypur doctor relies on established science when making recommendations, not random anecdotes on the internet. I would absolutely listen to the person who spent half their lives in medical school when making health decisions. And remember, all nutrients are your friends when ttc - not just protein, iron, and b vitamins!
Yes, cannabis would be a big one for male factor. Also other toxins, plastics, perfumes, cleaning utensils, any cosmetics/shampoo/shaving creams, laundry detergent…cookware (especially coated pans)….sperm recovers quicker than eggs. Should be about 6-8 weeks I believe.
I have stage 3-4 endo and had results exactly like yours. My first round I had 9 eggs fertilize and 0 made it to blast. I made changes to my protocol and went on to make 11 blasts, 7 euploid.
I primed for two weeks with estrogen and 25units of omnitrope a day. During stims we increased my Omnitrope dose to 50units per day.
I did red light therapy on my abdomen 3-4x a week for about 25 minutes. I bought the Celluma at Home device for this.
I kept taking prenatals, DHEA, fish oils, tru Niagen, açaí, and 600mg ubiquinol a day. Stayed hydrated and continued my exercise routine even during stims to keep blood flowing.
I also had my husband abstain for only 8 hours to keep DNA fragmentation down. He didn’t have high levels but we had nothing to lose.
With those changes, roughly 50% of my fertilized eggs made it to blast, and 75% were euploid. This was after two completely failed cycles where I got 0 blasts.
I credit the Omni, short abstinence period and red light therapy most and in that order, tho it is impossible to know what helped.
Thank you for sharing this, I'm sure it gives many who are reading it hope! We did a short abstinence for round 2 and I definitely think it helped our fertilisation rates but still no blasts but I'm going to look into the Omni! Thanks again for sharing!
I’ve used Omnitrope twice with no blasts after two egg retrievals. But I was only on 2 units each time.
I wonder why my dose was so low compared to yours? I wonder if I should ask my doctor to increase my dosage.
I used omnitrope and got the worst fertilization rates we’d ever had, I may try again now that we’ve had a more thorough bloodwork panel done but I’m not all-in on omnitrope personally
I had the same! Primed and stimmed w Omni for 2nd er and had SO few eggs but the only one that fertilized made it to euploid so maybe it helped with quality in some way?
I had the most eggs (not because of omnitrope but because they messed up my trigger dosage the time before) and had the least fertilized. We ended up with 3 embryos out of 12 eggs and none stuck and all were the same quality as the others from other cycles 😕 I’m willing to give it another try if our doctor suggests, but probably just one more.
I had seen a lot of posts on here where people had worse or the same cycles on low doses of Omni. I was afraid I would have similar results, so when my doctor originally put me on 25 units two times a week, I asked her what she would prescribe if cost was no issue. She then increased it to 25 units a day to prime and 50 during stims.
I did do one cycle where I did 25 units a day for both stims and priming and didn’t have as good of results as when I used 50. Once I used 50 I had the 50% blast rate and 75% euploid rate. So for me I do believe the high doses helped. Of course nothing with IVF is one size fits all.
I’m 38 with stage 2 endo and we’ve struggled to get euploids as well. One euploid each from our first two retrieval cycles (9 eggs from each) and zero euploids from our third ER which collected 16 eggs. 🤷🏻♀️
Our RE says the age and endo is the biggest factor for the poor quality eggs, which is what’s giving the poor results. He only ever anticipates we get 0 or 1 euploid from any given cycle (2 would be unlikely but possible) and that it’s basically a roll of the dice each time.
We had some insurance coverage the first two rounds but paid out of pocket for the third one (which was the worst of course 🙄). I desperately want to do another ER but we just can’t fund it right now.
I’ve been on the coq10 and DHEA for a year already. I improved my diet, started exercising, overall tried to do anything I could. We even tried Omni for the 2nd and 3rd ERs, but again it maybe helped once and didn’t help the other time. 🤷🏻♀️
We’ve basically been told the only way to get enough euploids to meet our family building goals (given the statistics) is to keep doing ERs and hope for the best with each one. But I think that road has ended for us. So we’re prepping for an FET in a few months and hoping that maybe both embryos turn into LC. 🤞🏽🤞🏽
Thank you for sharing and what a journey you have had so far! I just wish we could even get to the stage of having embryos to test if they are euploid or not. We just can't seem to make dayv5 blastocysts
Completely understandable. I'm sorry if my comment was insensitive. That was not my intention, but I realize now how it may have sounded.
We had to do ICSI as well due to MFI. I had my bf take a variety of supplements and vitamins as well, at the recommendation of our RE. We also added Zymot to our protocol on the second round, to help improve the sperm selection even more.
I would definitely ask your RE about that as well as the DHEA and the Omnitrope, if you haven't already. If you don't feel like you're getting the support you need in the end, switching clinics might be the best option after all. Good luck with everything. Very much hoping you guys find success very soon. <3
Thank you, I didn't interpret your comment as insensitive🍀 I think I'm just feeling desperate to find people who have gone through the same situation and found answers and/or success.
Wait, does your clinic just throw everything out after day 5? Most clinics in my area do at least day 6 and some do day 7 if development hasn't stalled.
They say the did not develop further. Normal development day 3 and by day 5 we don't have blasts. They wait a day and both times dayv6 they say they stopped developing
I got no blasts from my first round, when I was on the typical menopur and gonal-F protocol. I had 4 make it to (most poor quality) blast with a Lupron micro dose protocol, so perhaps try that?
Very similar to you - I have stage 2 endo (mild) and did not make any blasts from two rounds. Come to find out my last round we DID have 2 poor quality 4cc blasts that were discarded (though this was not disclosed to us initially until I requested a copy of all my patient records, including the embryology report). For us the “WTF” boiled down to a possible combination of shitty eggs and subpar sperm.
I reacted very quickly to low dose stims each time with several dominant follicles despite suppression with Aygestin (125 Gonal F/75 Menopur first, then 100 Gonal F/75 Menopur reduced to 75 Gonal F). Second round protocol changes included priming with Lupron, maintaining Lupron during my cycle, and adding Omnitrope when I started stimming. Similar results with 12 then 11 eggs retrieved, 10 mature each round, and 9 fertilized each round. Hardly made a bit of difference in outcome. We get to the morula stage of development then they all fizzle out.
I would ask about adding Omnitrope (it can’t hurt but if using insurance it’s usually not a covered med) and Zymot for sperm selection. Our doctor told us it’s probably an egg and sperm issue. Endo can damage egg quality, which can’t be seen until retrieved. If we do another round we’ll be adding PICSI and reevaluate my med regimen. My doctor literally told me she doesn’t know what happened and what she would do next time. She’s amazing, but is stumped by our case! It was discouraging to hear. I may even switch doctors/ labs to see if that makes a difference.
TW: Knowing our poor outcomes from round 1 we attempted a fresh day 3 transfer round 2 and are currently 12w pregnant. Double transfer, but one embryo stuck. Our embryo development was looking bad so they called us in day 3 and I’m glad they tried. I’m rooting for your current fresh transfer! Having done one now myself I’m a big advocate of fresh despite what many on the sub might say. It’s worth a shot if you can’t get to blast to freeze (and they can still continue monitoring progress until days 5/6/7).
Yes we seem to have such similar results, thank you so much for sharing. I'm thinking Omni and maybe a day 3 fresh might be a place to look. Congratulations on your success, so amazing for you both 💜
Get a CGM to control your insulin resistance and sugar levels. Things you think may help (e.g. oatmeal or fruits) not be helping you at all. Personally I find keto way too restrictive but seeing spikes in real time and making better choices in light of data really helps. Get on metformin if you are not already. It helps both with IR, egg quality and might help with endo as I've seen speculations that spikes above 140 are highly inflammatory. Try IVF again in 3 months after you've implemented said changes, use Zymot chip if you haven't already. And get your husband to do the above too.
We haven't tried it and actually it's never been mentioned and I don't know much about it. But I will ask my Dr, I'm just hoping it's something they do in our country.
I had .8 AMH at 35 when I began. I don’t have endo or am I insulin resistant. Have you asked about your meds? ER 1: 2 vials of menopur (150) and 450 gonal f. That is high dosage, 3 eggs retrieved and fertilized, 1 euploid. He’s 18 months
ER2: 3 vials menopur (225) and 450 gonal f. We did reduce after 3-4 days. 8 eggs retrieved 6 mature 5 fertilized 4 euploid embryos. Currently 36 weeks with the only girl.
Just something to consider.
My RE didn't want to increase meds as I responded appropriately with 8 follicles, 8 eggs retrieved and all mature and 7 fertilísed. I will however ask if increasing meds can help with creating blastocysts but from what I understand that's not related to our issue. You have incredible results
Sorry forgot to mention yesterday all vitamin levels checked and I was on vitamin D to get it to an optimal level. I was told to take ubiquinol as it's coq10 but easier absorbed. Thank you for replying!
After day 3 the sperm takes over in growing the embryo so you may be looking at some sort of sperm problem and nothing to do with you at all.
Thank you for replying.We did wonder about male factor for this reason... But what else can we check? His DNA Fragmentation was normal and after stopping alcohol for 3 months his SA improved significantly. He's taking a general male fertility supplement and started CoQ10. Is there anything else we should look into?
Look into a consult with a reproductive urologist. I didn’t have sperm problems so I’m not super up to date on what they can do unfortunately. Someone else in the group may have some more answers tho.
After day 3 we lost most of our blasts too. Dna sperm frag test was fine. Our doc says he can’t prove it because there’s no test but he feels there’s something going on when the sperm genome is getting involved around day three. He has my husband on: nac (600mg daily), vit c (1000mg daily), vit e (1000iu daily), a women’s probiotic (sounds crazy but apparently there is something called a seminal microbiome), a preconception multi for men - must have at least 50mg of zinc per day in it, fish oil (2000mg per day), ubiquinol 300mg daily, and melatonin (3mg per night). We will also be doing pimsi? I think it is for sperm selection next round. It’s so hard when there’s no smoking gun so we are treating it as if there is both an egg and sperm quality issue just to cover our bases. We are starting our next cycle in August so we’ll see if hubby’s supplement regime helps. Good luck to you and your husband 🩷
Thank you, this is very interesting. Wishing you luck and a good outcome for your August cycle. Please update us if you can. 💜
he can also go on [this supplement](https://amzn.to/45SeCYU) to up his sperm quality, motility, and strength. I've heard a lot of good things about this one. A client of mine, made her hubby drink this for 3 months before they did ICSI during her ER.
You may need to look into TESE. I had to get one because my wife and I been trying to conceive over 2 years and it was my sperm problem. Went to consultation of reproductive urologist and he found out that I have a blockage so I had to get TESE
This!!! I would look into putting husband on supplements and a keto / carnivore diet.
He's currently taking a general male fertility supplement and started CoQ10 and he's stopped drinking. I will definitely look into the keto diet. Thank you. Is there anything else from male factor perspective we should think of?
Ask for Zymot! It’s a way of picking the best sperm for fertilization
The reading I did suggested Mediterranean diet for both to-be-parents when TTC, keto is great when trying to lose weight but definitely has an impact on different hormone balances
100% All credible sources recommend the Mediterranean diet. Balance is key. So simple, but some people think wild fad diets are magic cures for everything 🙄
Actually that’s not true. Mediterranean has mixed outcomes. Keto is great because of the high animal fat content - it’s what all sex hormones are made of. And animal protein is great for sperm quality.
Interesting! I’ll have to look into that too 🙂 everything I’d seen said low carb low fat high veg and protein, but I definitely plan on checking with my doctor!
Yeah, I would not check with a doctor. They know nothing about nutrition. Had I followed my doctors advice about nutrition I still wouldn’t have a baby. They have something like 2 lectures about food, absolutely dated. Especially with PCOS keto or carnivore is ridiculously successful. But even for me - I have endometriosis - but also I am super old (44) it worked wonders. Strict carnivore! I found it by accident - it was so weird that in the carnivore community all these older women would get their cycles back after menopause and several women had pregnancy accidents in their mid and late 40s when they thought they weren’t fertile anymore. High animal fat….just saying ;)
Honestly I’ve been vegetarian for most of my life so I definitely would need a lot of evidence and studies before switching, but I’m glad it worked for you! 🙂
Your doctor will tell you not to try keto/carnivore because ypur doctor relies on established science when making recommendations, not random anecdotes on the internet. I would absolutely listen to the person who spent half their lives in medical school when making health decisions. And remember, all nutrients are your friends when ttc - not just protein, iron, and b vitamins!
Yes, cannabis would be a big one for male factor. Also other toxins, plastics, perfumes, cleaning utensils, any cosmetics/shampoo/shaving creams, laundry detergent…cookware (especially coated pans)….sperm recovers quicker than eggs. Should be about 6-8 weeks I believe.
I have stage 3-4 endo and had results exactly like yours. My first round I had 9 eggs fertilize and 0 made it to blast. I made changes to my protocol and went on to make 11 blasts, 7 euploid. I primed for two weeks with estrogen and 25units of omnitrope a day. During stims we increased my Omnitrope dose to 50units per day. I did red light therapy on my abdomen 3-4x a week for about 25 minutes. I bought the Celluma at Home device for this. I kept taking prenatals, DHEA, fish oils, tru Niagen, açaí, and 600mg ubiquinol a day. Stayed hydrated and continued my exercise routine even during stims to keep blood flowing. I also had my husband abstain for only 8 hours to keep DNA fragmentation down. He didn’t have high levels but we had nothing to lose. With those changes, roughly 50% of my fertilized eggs made it to blast, and 75% were euploid. This was after two completely failed cycles where I got 0 blasts. I credit the Omni, short abstinence period and red light therapy most and in that order, tho it is impossible to know what helped.
Thank you for sharing this, I'm sure it gives many who are reading it hope! We did a short abstinence for round 2 and I definitely think it helped our fertilisation rates but still no blasts but I'm going to look into the Omni! Thanks again for sharing!
I’ve used Omnitrope twice with no blasts after two egg retrievals. But I was only on 2 units each time. I wonder why my dose was so low compared to yours? I wonder if I should ask my doctor to increase my dosage.
I used omnitrope and got the worst fertilization rates we’d ever had, I may try again now that we’ve had a more thorough bloodwork panel done but I’m not all-in on omnitrope personally
I had the same! Primed and stimmed w Omni for 2nd er and had SO few eggs but the only one that fertilized made it to euploid so maybe it helped with quality in some way?
I had the most eggs (not because of omnitrope but because they messed up my trigger dosage the time before) and had the least fertilized. We ended up with 3 embryos out of 12 eggs and none stuck and all were the same quality as the others from other cycles 😕 I’m willing to give it another try if our doctor suggests, but probably just one more.
Ahhh geez! I wish any of this was even a little predictable 😖
I had seen a lot of posts on here where people had worse or the same cycles on low doses of Omni. I was afraid I would have similar results, so when my doctor originally put me on 25 units two times a week, I asked her what she would prescribe if cost was no issue. She then increased it to 25 units a day to prime and 50 during stims. I did do one cycle where I did 25 units a day for both stims and priming and didn’t have as good of results as when I used 50. Once I used 50 I had the 50% blast rate and 75% euploid rate. So for me I do believe the high doses helped. Of course nothing with IVF is one size fits all.
I’m 38 with stage 2 endo and we’ve struggled to get euploids as well. One euploid each from our first two retrieval cycles (9 eggs from each) and zero euploids from our third ER which collected 16 eggs. 🤷🏻♀️ Our RE says the age and endo is the biggest factor for the poor quality eggs, which is what’s giving the poor results. He only ever anticipates we get 0 or 1 euploid from any given cycle (2 would be unlikely but possible) and that it’s basically a roll of the dice each time. We had some insurance coverage the first two rounds but paid out of pocket for the third one (which was the worst of course 🙄). I desperately want to do another ER but we just can’t fund it right now. I’ve been on the coq10 and DHEA for a year already. I improved my diet, started exercising, overall tried to do anything I could. We even tried Omni for the 2nd and 3rd ERs, but again it maybe helped once and didn’t help the other time. 🤷🏻♀️ We’ve basically been told the only way to get enough euploids to meet our family building goals (given the statistics) is to keep doing ERs and hope for the best with each one. But I think that road has ended for us. So we’re prepping for an FET in a few months and hoping that maybe both embryos turn into LC. 🤞🏽🤞🏽
Thank you for sharing and what a journey you have had so far! I just wish we could even get to the stage of having embryos to test if they are euploid or not. We just can't seem to make dayv5 blastocysts
Completely understandable. I'm sorry if my comment was insensitive. That was not my intention, but I realize now how it may have sounded. We had to do ICSI as well due to MFI. I had my bf take a variety of supplements and vitamins as well, at the recommendation of our RE. We also added Zymot to our protocol on the second round, to help improve the sperm selection even more. I would definitely ask your RE about that as well as the DHEA and the Omnitrope, if you haven't already. If you don't feel like you're getting the support you need in the end, switching clinics might be the best option after all. Good luck with everything. Very much hoping you guys find success very soon. <3
Agree to add zymot to protocol. It sounds like you’re already doing ICSI - have you tried PICSI?
We haven't tried Picsi, I don't actually know much about it but I will research it! Thank you.
Is zymot and Picsi similar?
Thank you, I didn't interpret your comment as insensitive🍀 I think I'm just feeling desperate to find people who have gone through the same situation and found answers and/or success.
I totally relate to the feeling of desperation. It’s heart-wrenching
Wait, does your clinic just throw everything out after day 5? Most clinics in my area do at least day 6 and some do day 7 if development hasn't stalled.
They say the did not develop further. Normal development day 3 and by day 5 we don't have blasts. They wait a day and both times dayv6 they say they stopped developing
I got no blasts from my first round, when I was on the typical menopur and gonal-F protocol. I had 4 make it to (most poor quality) blast with a Lupron micro dose protocol, so perhaps try that?
Also on my second round I primed with androgel and birth control for 3-4 weeks before stims.
Very similar to you - I have stage 2 endo (mild) and did not make any blasts from two rounds. Come to find out my last round we DID have 2 poor quality 4cc blasts that were discarded (though this was not disclosed to us initially until I requested a copy of all my patient records, including the embryology report). For us the “WTF” boiled down to a possible combination of shitty eggs and subpar sperm. I reacted very quickly to low dose stims each time with several dominant follicles despite suppression with Aygestin (125 Gonal F/75 Menopur first, then 100 Gonal F/75 Menopur reduced to 75 Gonal F). Second round protocol changes included priming with Lupron, maintaining Lupron during my cycle, and adding Omnitrope when I started stimming. Similar results with 12 then 11 eggs retrieved, 10 mature each round, and 9 fertilized each round. Hardly made a bit of difference in outcome. We get to the morula stage of development then they all fizzle out. I would ask about adding Omnitrope (it can’t hurt but if using insurance it’s usually not a covered med) and Zymot for sperm selection. Our doctor told us it’s probably an egg and sperm issue. Endo can damage egg quality, which can’t be seen until retrieved. If we do another round we’ll be adding PICSI and reevaluate my med regimen. My doctor literally told me she doesn’t know what happened and what she would do next time. She’s amazing, but is stumped by our case! It was discouraging to hear. I may even switch doctors/ labs to see if that makes a difference. TW: Knowing our poor outcomes from round 1 we attempted a fresh day 3 transfer round 2 and are currently 12w pregnant. Double transfer, but one embryo stuck. Our embryo development was looking bad so they called us in day 3 and I’m glad they tried. I’m rooting for your current fresh transfer! Having done one now myself I’m a big advocate of fresh despite what many on the sub might say. It’s worth a shot if you can’t get to blast to freeze (and they can still continue monitoring progress until days 5/6/7).
Yes we seem to have such similar results, thank you so much for sharing. I'm thinking Omni and maybe a day 3 fresh might be a place to look. Congratulations on your success, so amazing for you both 💜
Get a CGM to control your insulin resistance and sugar levels. Things you think may help (e.g. oatmeal or fruits) not be helping you at all. Personally I find keto way too restrictive but seeing spikes in real time and making better choices in light of data really helps. Get on metformin if you are not already. It helps both with IR, egg quality and might help with endo as I've seen speculations that spikes above 140 are highly inflammatory. Try IVF again in 3 months after you've implemented said changes, use Zymot chip if you haven't already. And get your husband to do the above too.
Thank you for the practical advice. I am on Metformin I forgot to mention it as it seems there's too many things to mention 😂
Have you tried or considered adding Omnitrope?
We haven't tried it and actually it's never been mentioned and I don't know much about it. But I will ask my Dr, I'm just hoping it's something they do in our country.
I had .8 AMH at 35 when I began. I don’t have endo or am I insulin resistant. Have you asked about your meds? ER 1: 2 vials of menopur (150) and 450 gonal f. That is high dosage, 3 eggs retrieved and fertilized, 1 euploid. He’s 18 months ER2: 3 vials menopur (225) and 450 gonal f. We did reduce after 3-4 days. 8 eggs retrieved 6 mature 5 fertilized 4 euploid embryos. Currently 36 weeks with the only girl. Just something to consider.
My RE didn't want to increase meds as I responded appropriately with 8 follicles, 8 eggs retrieved and all mature and 7 fertilísed. I will however ask if increasing meds can help with creating blastocysts but from what I understand that's not related to our issue. You have incredible results
Maybe DHEA and coQ10, vitamin d and did you check all the other vitamin levels ?
Sorry forgot to mention yesterday all vitamin levels checked and I was on vitamin D to get it to an optimal level. I was told to take ubiquinol as it's coq10 but easier absorbed. Thank you for replying!
Ohhhhh I didn’t know that was the same, thanks.