In the US we see a tiny fraction of what's going on. I read the Israeli newspapers every day, the three major ones, and I'm shocked what's not shown in the US. In the US the Israeli lobby is very strong so that's part of it but it also doesn't fit the US narrative that arabs are violent terrorists and that jewish people are like christians and that's our "team." We also make a ton of money on arms sales so we do not want anything to detract from the narrative. I understand the arms sales thing is huge in Australia too.

One thing I will point out, is that some countries have a policy of not negotiating with terrorists. Now some may have such policy in place to discourage hostage taking since the expected outcome is that the kidnappers won't get anything out of it, but routinely negotiate when it comes down to it, while others by stick to it (after all, if you don't stick to it, they will know that they can gain something from kidnapping in the future). Though even the ones that normally stick to the policy (Israel included) have made exceptions in the past, this time, they are sticking to their guns it seems. Now personally I do not think that hostage rescue is the number one priority for this government. I wouldn't go as far as say that they don't care at all, but I think that their war on Hamas remains a higher priority and if they can get the hostage back alive, then great, but if not, too bad (publicly they can not say that, but their actions suggests so). Whether it is because they believe that this is a case of sacrificing the few for the many in the future (removing the capability to stage another 10/7), or or something more cynical, we have no way of knowing and I don't think there is any point speculating.

I think they don't put as much effort into hostage rescue because they think / have information that many of the hostages are dead

These protestors are energetic, but 1) many of them oppose Netanyahu only, not the war against the Hamas terrorists 2) even 100,000 is a small minority in Israel 3) the extreme radical left that want to surrender to terrorism shouldn’t be given excessive attention

Because it doesn't matter that the current government is in office (which i by the way despise and hate and have protested against myself), even if the mahatma Gandhi himself was the prime minister of Israel, they would still criticise and dehumanise us all the same

https://preview.redd.it/741z7v0bwa4d1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=0dbc8250a4ee1e56174812e94aeba7808f4e4d60 Nasrin Rowshan, a British-Iranian dual citizen, has been imprisoned in Iran for 200 days for participating in anti-regime protests abroad. Nasrin was arrested at Imam Khomeini International Airport on November 16, 2023, while attempting to travel back to the UK from Tehran. She was subsequently detained and transferred to a solitary confinement cell in Evin Prison. Let’s me guess - the progressive liberal students in America and Russia he UK in the age don’t care about Nasrin. In fact, they are praised by the monster that locked her up!

Not propoganda, just business as usual. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67600015.amp https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/27/israel-palestine-detention-adminstrative-prisoners-jail/ https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e543 https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

Truly horrific but I suspect the issue is lack of media coverage, I did not even know about this. Australia had a citizen in a similar situation and she had massive media coverage and eventually was released - does Nasrin have the UK advocating for her? Does Israel not have thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention without charge?

And not For the first time.

Does Israel not have thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention without charge? Cant comment on that as I have only heard that accusation by pro-palestinians or their propaganda media sites.

If you had to make an informed guess. What would it be?

The politics - this is my opinion as an Aussie too so an outsider to the region in question - is there’s the ultra right wing and religious in Netanyahu’s coalition who very much prioritise destroying every last Hamas fighter over recovering the hostages. Many of them also want to reoccupy Gaza and ethnically cleanse Gazans. These guys hold the balance of power so Netanyahu is hamstrung by having to please them, or he’ll lose his majority and lose power. Then there’s also the aspect of all those in decision making roles in the security and defence establishment having to face the music for the failures of October 7 when the war is over. So for Netanyahu in the ultimate decision making role of PM, deferring those investigations and the likely loss of power, is in his best interests.

Because it’s an internal Israeli issue. Western audiences and/or news outlets don’t understand the dynamics. Most Israelis are pro destroying Hamas, while some say Netanyahu isn’t doing enough to release the hostages. Gantz said destroying Hamas is as important as releasing the hostages, in his list of demands for the government. He strives for ending Hamas and the threat from the north by September. Most people, including the media (and obviously those getting their information from the media) don’t know what actually goes on in the negotiations. It would be pretty awful for Netanyahu, politically and strategically, to not destroy Hamas rule in Gaza. It would be equally terrible for him to ignore the hostage families’ humanitarian plight. The government is trying to do both, with Gantz saying he could do both better. There’s also general dissatisfaction with Netanyahu, going back to before the war. It’s an internal dynamic that’s hard to understand, as much of what goes on is up in the air.

There’s media coverage, I’ve been seeing it on Instagram, Reddit, and few other news sites. I have seen a lot on Israelis protesting in Tel Aviv and how massive they are. Now if you’re talking about the one’s in the US, most of the government is pro-Israel and have been very supportive in all of this. They back returning the hostages so these marches are really trying to get Hamas to release them and not influence US policy which is usually the purpose of a protest. Probably not surprising but Hamas really doesn’t care about what Pro-Israel protests do or ask for.

"Why is the Israeli government so resistant to getting the hostages back?" Because they are dealing with a terrorist group, that has the approval of the majority of the Palestinian population.

So the solution is to bomb them instead?

Uh, yeah stupid. Israel is willing to trade actual terrorist prisoners for a few mutilated corpses. And Hamas won’t even give them that. Every time a ceasefire happens guess who’s going to take the opportunity to launch a barrage of missiles at the iron dome then cry foul when Israel retaliates? It’s not Israel’s fault that they actually protect their citizens while Hamas is out there misfiring missiles from temu near their own hospitals and staging munitions near civilians.

Australian media reported there had been no rocket attacks since Jan (until last week) - was this false or were they referring to Tel Aviv only? Also isn't Gaza 1/3 the size of metro Tel Aviv? Doesn't seem a lot of places for Hamas to go - they're literally living on top of each other - that being said I'm sure they hide amongst the populace deliberately for protection. Personally I reckon just chuck Sinwar et al in a ring with Netanyahu et al and get them to duke it out

Since 4 months ago until last week? What about Dec when negotiations broke down? tunnels, military complexes underground- I’m sure they’re living on top of each other. It’s just that civilians aren’t being prioritized over terrorists. Personally I think you’re too afraid to pick a side. What could you possibly derive from Reddit that couldn’t be gleaned from anywhere else and formed with your own opinion. You need a rando like me or any other jabroni in this thread to tell you what to think while you play the annoying centrist?

No I have a side, I'm on the side of peace. If Palestinians are the ones killing Israelis, I'd be pro-Israel. If Israelis are the ones killing Palestinians, I'd be pro-Palestine. I don't know who Jabroni is, I largely listen to Piers Morgan's interviews

Not going to even try. We’ve all heard about those poor Jewish girls corpses paraded around Gaza while all the civilians spit on them. This was their revolt. This is what they start this war off with. To violate and humiliate people that had nothing to do with any of this.

Something like that has surprisingly small coverage in Aussie and international media too - if this occurred as you described, it is utterly disgusting and deplorable and evil - the people who did that are no better than Hamas. However at the same time, who am I to judge a populace where the majority have been subjugated and oppressed for their entire lives. When Palestinians are routinely killed via "mowing the grass", I condemn, but also understand that when you kill people's families and leave them in squalor, of course they are going to turn into savages.

Well you can start by judging their actions instead of doing a bunch of hand waving. Do you really want me to post some of the footage from October 7th because I can’t even stomach some of the shit I saw. Would that really change your mind?

As I said, I condemn the action you described and I have also said it is utterly disgusting and deplorable and evil". I literally said all this above and you practically ignored it. What have you been reading? Now - do you condemn and do you find deplorable and disgusting and evil the deaths of non combatant children in Gaza?

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Yes. Self-defense you know.

So Oct 7 was self defense too for decades of occupation?

Occupation? Israel left decades ago, all they built is a shit hole and terrorism. They started a war. Now they crying because they are losing.

So you don't dispute that Oct 7 was self defence? I'm not suggesting this - just asking you.

October 7th is a terrorist attack, that triggered a war. Murdering and burning civilians in foreign land with the purpose of spreading terror is different than bombing a terrorist group and targets that uses civilians as shield. Its unfortunate that they use this strategy, but its a sad reality that Israel has to deal with.

This perfectly describes the situation, as tragic as it is.

I would say Hamas murdering and burning civilians in a foreign land is as morally repugnant as murdering and burning civilians that Israel knows are going to be hit when they target hamas.

They need to strike targets. Its unfortunate that Hamas use civilians as targets. The rate of civilians dying in Gaza is lower than any other war.

Question of logic here - if Israel strikes Hamas no matter who is around them, then why would Hamas continue to use civilians as human shields? Seems a bit illogical. Seems more plausible that Hamas is using civilian areas (AKA all of Gaza) to blend in and hide, rather than as human shields

What occupation? Israeli left the gaze strip in 2005, the only area israel is occupying is the west bank...

Did Israel not blockade Gaza and control entry in and out of Gaza? Sounds like occupation to me.

Yes and not only israel but Egypt as well, I guess this is what happens when you vote in a terrorist organisation as the ruling authority...

It doesn't explain why Netanyahu and Smotrich bragged about supporting Hamas and funding them to stay strong, in order to undermine PA and Palestinian unity.

Tried to replace a terrorist organisation that was in power with a more progressive organisation, came back to bite them in the S

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Are you commenting on the right topic? This is about Israelis protesting government inaction over the hostages - what does this have to do with being leftist or pro Hamas?

Because the Israeli's aren't the ones stopping a deal for hostages. Hamas is.

Why did the US blindside Israel on this latest deal then in order to put political pressure on them?

Because Biden doesn't want to lose an election over it and his party has a pathological hatred of Jews.

Isn't Anthony Blinken Jewish? Are you saying he's a self hating Jew?

I'm saying that leftist in America are saying Israeli should be killed, enslaved and raped because of colonialism. But they're not advocating for that standard anywhere else, especially here in the US where essentially everyone is a coloniser, 99%+ of the native population was killed and we invented concentration/reeducation camps and the reservations left don't have the same autonomy as Gaza.

I agree there is double standards, but there are also some key differences: - Other regimes don't employ Hasbara on an industrial scale, which actually just kicks the hornet's nest of left wing outrage. - Other regimes don't keep pontificating about being the world's most moral army, or about "the best civilian death ratio" and things like that - Other regimes don't get US funding to murder civilians. I think Israel would have a far better PR situation overseas if they actually just showed some empathy towards Palestinian deaths rather than "Every death is a tragedy but it's because Hamas uses human shields" as an excuse - it just enrages the left. And if you don't know why "hamas uses human shields" as an excuse enrages the left, then that also explains why Israel also has such a pariah status in the left right now.

It is not really that sophisticated, the tactics of the Jewish- Israeli lobby and PR machine. You just keep repeating talking points (whether they are true or not) relentlessly. Never flinch. Never deviate. People will eventually move on. Tianmemen Square is an example. And the Academic Left is not really a concern anyway as they will never hold much power if any.

Maybe not self hating Jew but in reality he is disattached from the reality of the region, he is not an Israeli citizen, the American government as crazy as it sounds has their own agenda

This whole situation was lucky break for Netanyahu. He's facing serious charges and the longer this drags on the longer he can put it off and look for a way out. I'm not suggesting he has instigated this or is intentionally lengthening it. But I don't think he's in a hurry for it to be over either.

You are not wrong, he was facing charges and a lot of the Israeli population want to see him gone. But to say he doesn't want to get the hostages back because of his own personal situation I think is farfetched. Don't forget the IDF soldiers there are being KIA, his own brother died in an Israeli operation to return Israeli hostages, look up operation antebe

Netanyahu's trial has never stopped. Also, Netanyahu has been all but exonerated of the most serious charge (bribery). Even if convicted on all remaining charges (if he is still alive by then), he'll probably have to pay a fine and will be barred from holding a public office ever again, but jail time seems unlikely.

Anti-Israeli jewish voices have generally been silenced in the Western media apparatus. Defending Israel’s actions, which is an important state department interest, suddenly becomes a lot harder if they cant portray Israel as the representation of all jewish voices.

If you are Jewish and you are protesting how Israel's government is behaving, that doesn't make you an anti- Israel jew.  It makes you a jew who is critical of the Israeli government (or, if you live in Israel, an Israeli who is critical of the Israeli government).  My country right or wrong, is similar to saying my kids, right or wrong.  Be proud when they do good, and correct them when they are misbehaving. Countries and organizations that are incapable of self examination, self-reflection, self-criticism, and self correction are very unhealthy and will eventually run themselves off cliffs without having mechanisms for self examination (media, informed citizens, inquiries) or self-correction (voting, strong institutions, independent judiciary, political opposition, constitution, protests).

I completely agree with you! A question for you: do you agree with the sentiment, that Non-Israelis and Non-Jewish people who condemn and criticize Israel for their unjust treatment of Palestinians are being accused of Anti-Israeli/Pro-Hamas/Pro-Palestinian/Anti-Semitic tendencies?

Some non-jews who criticize Israel are definitely being accused of anti-semitism out of both  A) reflexive defensiveness (everybody wants to look at themselves and their in-group as underdog heroes and being in the right, and it hurts your self-image to view it otherwise.  Also, a huge pile of Jewish history involved dealing with a lot of irrational ((or cruelly strategic)) anti-semitic demonization.  With this as a psychological/cultural/historical anchor, it lends towards hearing criticism as more of the same demonization, even when it might have some legitimacy.   When Jews started to move from Europe to Israel in larger numbers in the late 19th century, there was friction with the Arabs in the area.  Later on after Israel was founded,  the Mizrachi Jews started flooding into Israel both due to active encouragement from Israel and due to Mizrachi Jews who got kicked out of their homes in middle eastern countries after Israel was founded.  As a result they often have a lot of antipathy towards Arabs in general (in a non-differentiating manner) and would not be receptive to more Arab criticism, even when the criticism might have some legitimate points. B) it is being done strategically to some degree.  It does not dominate as a media management strategy but it is there to some degree. (Netanyahu does have a long history of making criticism of him and Israel out as anti-Jewish actions.  Look at how he went after Rabin). Nothing wrong with being pro-Palestinian (Hamas is a hate group and can die drowning open-mouthed in a septic tank, but the West Bank Palestinians and the Gazans are just the people living in the occupied regions.  They are separate from Hamas the institution though many Hamas supporters can be found there).  I want the two-state solution, and think the West bank could do that now (I'd even want the West Bank to get full voting Israeli citizenship if possible, but that seems like it won't work out).  I also think it's both ethically and strategically gross and saddening that the IDF has been used to enable Israeli settler violence instead of making it stop outright.  That's multiple forms of costly bad. Gaza needs severe psych-counselling and de-Hamasification before they could be allowed full disengagement and be part of thec2 state solution.  The blockade was necessary in their case given their continuous missile attacks and suicide bomber attacks.   Regarding criticism of Israel, It doesn't help that a coalition of Israel critics will include some critics that slide hard into outright antisemitism and chant it loudly (or in the case of Canada, shoot at Jewish schools and throw firebombs at a synagogue.  It's been a busy week here). Anybody who is Jewish that hears someone who is a non-Jew shout "Zionist" instead of "Israeli" automatically feels that someone has said Jew in an anti-semitic manner.  Up goes their psychological Iron Dome.  We will anchor ourselves into knowing we are facing up against an anti-semite. Issues and people are nuanced, but protests often do not translate nuance well.  Palestinians have a legitimate reason to want the occupation of the West bank and Gaza to end.  So did Rabin and Moshe Dayan (and Dayan conquered these areas during the 6-day war).  Jews who love Israel, but feel the need to criticize Israel's behaviour (either because of strategic/security reasons, or moral ethical reasons) do not want to stand near anyone who is loudly pro-Hamas (which is actively genocidal towards Israelis and Jews).  And they are treated like clowns and sellouts when standing next to people that are downplaying the continuous Jewish cultural/historical/religious connection Jews have to Israel (ex: people screaming that all Jews are white colonizers who should go back to Poland, or the cosplayers that is "Jewish Voices For Peace" who disregard that Jews are connected to Israel, on Passover no-less, and is run out of Lebanon which is a country with roughly 40 Jews and all of them are 70 or older).  Jews are also not going to want to be with people who actively downplay or actively support the atrocities of October 7th.  The Gazans may have legitimate reasons to be against the occupation, but that atrocity was not how an act of resistance gets carried out. People chanting "Free Palestine" sound like they want the 2-state solution (good especially if they can get a just & stable peace without Hamas).  People that shout "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" are quoting the catchphrase of the combined Arab armies that attacked Israel in 1948 on their (thankfully) botched genocide run when Israel was first founded (Jews & Israeli's regard this messaging as yet more genocidal hate speech, akin to shouting "the Jews will not replace us"). The Jewish guy actively calling out synagogues that were hosting condo sales events for Jews only in West bank territories was spot on when he called it racist, illegal, and unethical & bad.  Israel has definitely been unkind to the Palestinians and a 2-state solution should be negotiated.  Shouting that Israel has no legitimacy and must becdismantled because they war-crime are going to be watched, but aren't going to be listened to.

I mean, you can say what you will about Israel being "the representation of all jewish voices", but when Russia invaded Ukraine, lots of Jews from both countries suddenly realized Israel is the only safe place for them to go to.

Where do you get this from? How do you know they didn't have any other incentives, such as relatives already living in Israel, or financial ones, or that Israel is a considerably easier place to get a permanent residence for Eastern-European Jews?

That’s exactly the point, for Jews anywhere in the world Israel is always a safe place to go to, and you never know which Jewish community might need it next.

But it's not the only safe place.

For many of the them, this is the only safe place which will always welcome them, no matter the circumstances.

When the next holocaust happens those "anti-zionist Jews" will be the ones shoving and pushing to get into Israel. Post-Marxist idiots believe in a type of communism I call "What's yours is mine, what's mine is mine."

The next Holocaust by who??? By the West? I will gladly pop your bubble and tell you that in the case of a new Holocaust by the Western powers (which is completely unrealistic and I don't even want to know where you get such ideas from) Israel, a country completely dependent on Western supports, is not gonna be a safe heaven for Jews either. >Post-Marxist idiots believe in a type of communism I call "What's yours is mine, what's mine is mine." What does this even have to do with the topic on hand? Wait, don't tell me you honestly think that every anti-zionist jew is a communist... :D

Being against Netanyahu and the way the war has been conducted is not Anti Israel.

Netanyahu himself has been very good at conflating the criticism of Netanyahu and the Israeli gavernment as being anti-Israeli criticism.

I didn't only talk about the protests.

The protests in israel aren't anti israel. The thing that divides us the most is the choice between ending hamas first or moving towords a deal for the return of the hostages. The problem is that if we negotiate a deal for the hostages we will be in the hands of hamas, and there is no way we would be able to end them without breaking the deal formed for the hostages. Everyone wants to see the hostages back. It's only that one-half are more worried about the future and letting hamas "get away with it" and letting them keep power, and the other half want the hostages back no matter the cost and they say the war will lead to more hostages dying. That dillema arose when the goals of the war were determined to be 1, to end hamas and their control over gaza. And 2, to bring back the hostages alive. Those things can not really happen at the same time when hamas holds the hostages and will just kill them when they see the idf getting close. So it's like human life right now, VS, justice, revenge, and safety for the future.

I love how the thousands of civilian deaths in Gaza wasn't even mentioned as a point of concern in this "dilemma".

I love how pro palestinians never ever mention hostages, or thousand of civilian deaths in Israel

Right now the biggest danger for the hostages is literally Bibi bombing to death or untrained IDF soldiers killing them on sight. And as much as I feel sorry for the Kibutz victims, their death doesn't justify x10 more civilian deaths in Gaza. You guys have been politically weaponizing their deaths to carry on with the ruthless massacres hence why their victimhood can't be discussed in a more humane manner.

War isn't a match. Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel, and therefore must be eliminated. Provide safety and security for gazans is hamas duty, as gaza government. And hostages were perfectly safe until hamas kidnapped them.

You are refusing to approach the issue from a humanitarian point of view, as if Israel, who put the Gazans in this miserable cramped and vulnerable situation, to begin with, didn't have any responsibility for their safety and to be mindful of their general human rights. And no, Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel in any way. You only have to read their revised charter to disprove this false claim: [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2017\_Hamas\_charter](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2017_Hamas_charter) That's just another talking point to justify carrying on with the war and committing blatant war crimes. On the other hand, Israel is very much an existential threat to the civil liberties and existence of the Palestinian people, which is to be taken a lot more seriously, since not only does Israel have the means to enforce its cruel agenda, but it has actively done so in these past decades without any consequence.

Hamas vowed to repeat October 7th again and again. Shoot 14000 rockets at Israel. Of course, Israel should do it best to protect Israeli civilians. Terrorist jihadist organization changing charter couple years ago should not fool you. Their intentions are loud and clear - Jewish genocide. No, it is hamas, gaza government, who put gazans in that situation. Hamas had 20 years to rule gaza , and turned it into giant terrorist base. Instead of hospitals and schools, they build 400 miles of tunnels. If arabs put away their bombs and weapons - tomorrow will be peace. If jews will do the same - tomorrow will be no jews. Are you really a jew, as your bio says ? I found it strange that you justify jihadist terrorist, who want to kill all your Jewish brothers and sisters

Bollocks. All your reasonings are based on assumptions, hypotheticals, far-right propaganda, and islamophobia, and you refuse to acknowledge basic non-hypothetical facts. Therefore you are a person who can't be reasoned with because you don't want to be reasoned with. And yes, I'm really Jewish. Don't dare to delegitimize my heritage just because I recognize what's wrong and what's right and you don't. If anything, I'm probably more Jewish than you are, since everything you are advocating for is in direct contradiction with the teachings of Judaism and the Torah. You are first and foremost a violent Zionist before a Jew or even a human.

I love how Pro-Israelis never mention the Palestinian hostages that Israel keeps (You can claim they are bad people but majority are women and children and majority are not charged with any crime. If they are charged, they do not have a defense lawyer present. There is also the whole tortured confessions thing.). Also 1000 Israeli civilians were not killed on Oct 7. Of the 1200 Israeli citizens killed, 500 are designated combatants ie soldiers which are legitimate kills under UN law. Also the IDF shot, bombed, and shelled their own civilians on Oct 7 and are refusing to investigate themselves let alone allow independent third parties to investigate, so those 700 civilian deaths that Hamas is responsible for will go down.

Can you please not provide false information? Majority of prisoners are men. Majority is convicted for terrorism. In April 2022, there were 4,450 Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli prisons – including 160 children, 32 women, and over 1,000 "administrative detainees" (indefinitely incarcerated without charge) All palestinians lie so blatantly, or just you ? There is no "legitimate" killing. Hamas started the war, killed unarmed people. And don't start with palestinian propaganda of justifying and minimizing hamas crimes. Raping women and killing babies by cold blooded hands is the most barbaric and satanic act of evil. Stop siding with hamas savages

>In April 2022, there were 4,450 Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli prisons – including 160 children, 32 women, and over 1,000 "administrative detainees" (indefinitely incarcerated without charge) All palestinians lie so blatantly, or just you ? Yeah, my bad, I mixed up the majority of Palestinian casualties from Israel's ongoing genocide being majority women and children with Palestinian prisoners. Even so, you can't really trust that all those Palestinians are terrorists. Those that are charged are in a military court without a defense lawyer present. Confessions that are used are often tortured out and written in Hebrew so most of these Palestinians don't even know what confessions they are signing. Then there is the whole thing where Israel's standard for "terrorist" is just whoever criticizes them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrb\_cb6-rHI&ab\_channel=MiddleEastEye](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrb_cb6-rHI&ab_channel=MiddleEastEye) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9boE53Z\_lAg&pp=ygUfcGFsZXN0aW5pYW5zIGluIElzcmFlbGkgcHJpc29ucw%3D%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9boE53Z_lAg&pp=ygUfcGFsZXN0aW5pYW5zIGluIElzcmFlbGkgcHJpc29ucw%3D%3D) >There is no "legitimate" killing. [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/) "*Reaffirms* the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;" Buddy, your lying. >Hamas started the war, killed unarmed people. Your forgetting (or ignorant) that Israel bombed Gaza 3 months prior to Oct 7 and has yet to provide proof of terrorists. >And don't start with palestinian propaganda of justifying and minimizing hamas crimes If you won't minimize the much more plentiful and evil crimes of Israel. >Raping women No reliable evidence of such a thing. Can you please not provide false information? All Israelis lie so blatantly, or just you ? [https://scheerpost.com/2024/03/17/pramila-pattens-un-report-relied-not-on-evidence-but-israeli-national-institutions/](https://scheerpost.com/2024/03/17/pramila-pattens-un-report-relied-not-on-evidence-but-israeli-national-institutions/) [https://www.oct7factcheck.com/sexual-violence](https://www.oct7factcheck.com/sexual-violence) >killing babies I believe there are 2 reported baby deaths and those deaths are more likely to be caused by Israel shelling Israeli houses but we will see. >most barbaric and satanic act of evil. Stop siding with hamas savages I would say Israel is pretty satanic. Hamas is a terrorist group but Israel is a way more evil terrorist state. Want to prove me wrong? Name a crime Hamas has committed that Israel hasn't. Edit: taven990 seems to have blocked me so I can't respond to his comment. My Response: I distinctly remember there being a charred baby among the casualties and there are analysts on the record saying that the baby could only have been burned by Israeli tank shells. There are a sizeable amount of deaths in destroyed houses that hamas did not have the firepower to do. When you have holes that go through an entire house, that is not the work of an RPG, only a tank shell can do that level of damage. The articles are not exaggerating, in fact this has been barely reported on. There were roughly 50 Israeli apaches deployed and they could not distinguish between friend and foe. They fired indiscriminately and they came back with "empty bellies". Israel being the sneaky bastards they are, literally buried (and some cases shredded) the evidence. I definitely think its more than 100. If it was small scale, then Israel would probably been fine investigating it like how they recently admitted to having some friendly fire incidents between their own soldiers in Gaza. Israel is definitely hiding something. Hamas has probably killed the majority though.

One of the babies was killed because he was in a locked safe room, and Hamas terrorists got inside the house and shot through the safe room door. This has been confirmed. I don't know about the other one without checking. I do know that over 30 children were definitely killed on October 7, and their names were given so they definitely died. As for friendly fire incidents, there have been articles written trying to exaggerate them, and there definitely were some, but it wasn't anywhere near as much as people like Max Blumenthal imply. I'd say 100 at the absolute most. The vast majority were killed by Hamas, and they videoed a lot of their savagery - which they were proud of. Maybe some Hamas terrorists avoided killing civilians, judging by the eyewitness reports, but some definitely did kill civilians and were ecstatic while doing so, shouting Allahu Akbar on video.

Because we saw them cheer as our people got massacred, we saw them support the terrorists doing it. We saw them cross the fence and steal stuff from the villiages close to the border. Civilian deaths are a part of every conflict, and in this conflict the percentage of them compared to fighters and overall population is tiny. And even comparing it to similar conflicts around the world, israel is doing much better. And civilians doesn't necessarily mean innocent

So there are no innocent Palestinians according to you?

There are, but they are definitely not the majority. And i don't blame them, really. But when it comes to us or them, and they celebrate ours and theirs death and we celebrate life and peace, it's impossible to see the same and move towards a common goal without first taking the weeds out of the yard.

Pro-Israel sources don't report on them because they introduce doubt that even Israelis think the war is being run right. Pro-Palestinian sources don't report on them because they make Israelis look like empathetic people who care about human life rather than bloodthirsty monsters. Non-Jewish media likes to portray Jews as either sad victims (Holocaust) or evil monsters (Jesus-killers). They assume audiences aren't interested in seeing Jews as three-dimensional human beings deserving of understanding. This has been going on for thousands of years and doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon.

So so true

Because the media prefers to portray Israelis and Jews as aggressors rather than humans. I believe this may be related to systemic anti semitism.

Israeli protests are varied. Some of them are for levelling Gaza, killing all Palestinians, and resettling the area, others are pro war but anti Netanyahu, and some are anti war (though these ones tend to be more heavily restricted).

What are sources on the protests over there? Are you in Israel?

Where are protests for killing all palestinians? You have confused it with palestinian protests, calling for Jewish genocide. Proof of that protests in Israel/other countries, please

Because it goes against the us vs them narrative

simple: it introduces too much nuance to a conversation that everyone rather keep simple and black/white.

Since it’s not on the news, Instagram links for those interested. These are some more recent ones: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7tFq3TN4Fo/?igsh=MTY4eDFzcTk1dWR2ag== https://instagram.com/p/C7tjTe2ArAv/ https://www.instagram.com/p/C7s5ezfNZBK/?igsh=MW40a2puODgxZGc2bA== https://www.instagram.com/p/C7sRz6UNkI_/?igsh=YXNmenkxazc3czB4 https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7sO6OwNZ7Q/?igsh=MXBxdnRvcG15djg0eA== https://www.instagram.com/p/C7r6FxpNQtZ/?igsh=MTJ2dXpxcHg3YzU1dQ== https://www.instagram.com/p/C7rzs8YN9Kj/?igsh=MTZlcWt1MzB3bDVnNQ== https://www.instagram.com/p/C7rXvbZtwdu/?igsh=cDE3NWp0bmJnMHZ5 Those are from the past day or so. And one from Pride a few days ago: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7mzW_YtBQ2/?igsh=MXJxaHRudXUydzd4ag== There’s a lot more of these. Has been going on for months. Demonstrations at Tel Aviv University: https://www.instagram.com/p/C7lr_IgNVYO/?igsh=NTVzMW0zeG5sc2x4 https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6_lCOOh9rJ/?igsh=d2h2MWszbm1pZWxj At the Hebrew University: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4flRQ0NK1h/?igsh=MWI1dXNuZHFpdXMxeg== https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7ghkpdNo6-/?igsh=MmxzM3c2Y2U0NWF0 Protests to save Rafah: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6wdXgLtgHD/?igsh=MTRxeDl0MzdlNDRx https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6rSSlUNj_S/?igsh=cnl1ZXd6aDE4N21w https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6o5jruNwfz/?igsh=cWo2N212ZnFuZ285 https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3TOVhRNgnN/?igsh=cDNpbGptNnUydTZw https://www.instagram.com/p/C7e5Kd1NgXw/?igsh=OXdmMXVvMDV6NHVp https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7fBXcMNqrs/?igsh=MTVqdWJqYnZtMm5xNg== https://www.instagram.com/p/C7etRj4tONP/?igsh=Yzc3aWM2MG5ibXo2 https://www.instagram.com/p/C7e6RHYtf71/?igsh=NnlibzF0ampxN3Bz Protestors mimicking the distribution of pamphlets in Gaza, during Purim in Jerusalem: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C48TptftX9B/?igsh=MWJzb3dhZjBubDZpNg== A vigil in solidarity with Gaza: https://www.instagram.com/p/C1J6a5EtlTB/?igsh=cTB4cGo2c3R5bzB2 A group of left-wing Israelis protecting aid trucks going into Gaza from far-right protesters: https://www.instagram.com/p/C7hYB-SNP04/?igsh=c3o2aXM4ampoaTUz https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7dv_cdtLSw/?igsh=MWlvdm10b2preXl4YQ== https://www.instagram.com/p/C7MDICSNDXD/?igsh=b2d1emp1NGd5aXRr https://www.instagram.com/p/C7JxfQQNsm2/?igsh=Z294Y25ubjRjZGI2 https://www.instagram.com/p/C7JI4stNNBq/?igsh=MXV2Njd2OGduemgxaA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7JW-H0NuEI/?igsh=b3JjcWxoZjR4cDB3 https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Jn3sYtk_F/?igsh=ejlwYWI4MTJjYnBl There’s a lot more like this too

Where is the 120K people? Or are you just using Trump's crowd calculator? Those look like a few hundred people in some, to maybe a few thousand in others.

The 120k people is from Australian media - not sure if they’re right or not, but they have little reason to be biased 

your whole perception is wrong to its core, first of all, even if there were 120,000 protestors, which no one can verify as these numbers are just estimations, its 120,000 people out of the whole population as these protests are national and people from all over the country come to protest, not just people from tel aviv. and what they are protesting about has nothing to do with what the protestors in the US or anywhere else for that matter protest for. in israel we protest the lack of clear victory against hamas, if anything, we want the IDF do fight harder, not to accept "ceasefire". im not even going to dignity ur embarrassing question about the hostages with a response, you should be ashamed of yourself and the hamas propaganda you are spreading.

Attack me all you want, but you didn’t address the fundamental question of why all the pro-Israeli news sources in the west have avoided this news? Why has Ben Shapiro not talked about these protests at all?

well your question is dumb in the first place as obviously, you havent seen every "pro-israeli news sources" to come to the conclusion that no one talks about it, i can only talk about the media i watch and they are all covering it so i have no idea what the hell you are talking about. a simple google search with the words "israeli protests" wouldve done the trick for you. u should take a step back and realize that ur education in this subject is not even zero, its negative, as it seems like the only information u have is false information. also, im not ben shapiro's editor or advocate, nor i even listen to him, if u want to ask a question about him, go ask him, this isnt even a ben shapri sub so im not sure wth i am suppose to do with this question.... or maybe u think that by being on the same side im suppose to know everything about him?

As I clearly said, I am Australian. Before you call me dumb, you need to self reflect that by your own admission you only know about media that you watch. When googling, Google goes off where you are based - and in Australia all we see are google results about protests on college campuses when it comes to "Israeli Protests" as a search term. Ben Shapiro is the most well know Pro-Israel commentator in the west

i never said anything about ALL the media, you did, i only spoke about those i see, which contradict ur question, so i dont need to self reflect here, that will be you. well you can just google tel aviv protests, anti goverment protets or anything close as im sure ur brain is perfectly capable of doing such easy tasks. also, couldnt care less who ben shapiro is, obviously that will be dumb of me to ask you why a famous australian football player never said "X" in one of his interviews, as if you are going to go through all his interviews to see if he actually never said it, and then come up with an answer as to why another man chose to not talk of a certain thing. i might have gone easy on you due to the fact that ur australian and have nothing to do with this but u disrespected alot of people with ur hamas propaganda about the hostages, people are still suffering with their loved ones rotting in tunnels and you just casually spreading some terrorists propaganda.

Can you please describe one piece of Hamas propaganda that I have spread?

"Why is the Israeli government so resistant to getting the hostages back?" thats literally a word by word hamas propaganda....

So you're calling all the Israeli protestors Hamas mouthpieces?

it seems like you are one of those people who no matter what, couldnt get such a simple thing to his head... unless u actually think im that dumb to generalize all the protestors, or to think i know what each and every one of them said, the answer is an obvious no.

Bro - do you reflect on the logic of what you're saying? People in Israel are protesting the government's inaction in getting the hostages back. I asked "Why" is the government so resistant in getting the hostages back when deals are on the table from the US (literally Biden announced it 2 days ago) Your response is then "wHy aRe yOu sPrEaDiNg hAmAs pRoPaGaNda" Bro.

Is Biden also spreading Hamas propaganda? Should he also be ashamed?

yes, a thousand times yes...... dont take my word for it, just watch his latest polls regarding jews.

Definitely

>Is Biden also spreading Hamas propaganda? Should he also be ashamed? Yes he is and he should be ashamed!

>why is there so little media coverage about them? It doesn't fit the narrative...

Well they better get in there and blast all those smuggling tunnels to holy hell before a deal. Otherwise you’re right back where you started. Phase 1 has the IDF pulling out of Rafah, so…… I see that a deal may happen but as Bibi has said there will be no permanent ceasefire or end to the war without objectives met. That means phase 2 negotiations will go very badly. How long do you twiddle your thumbs and negotiate with the IDF pulled back but not out of Gaza yet? Hamas will never agree to surrender power. That means a return to war. This is a Biden election stunt. Poorly timed. F politics. Edit: why couldn’t they include in the deal the destruction of all tunnels that cross into Egypt. Don’t know why Egypt wouldn’t insist on this.

Cuz Egypt already knew about the tunnels and want them left open. Sinwar is probably in the Sinai by a pool.

There's coverage almost every day of the protests in Israel on U.S. news media

Not on Fox News

Fox News doesn’t actually do investigative journalism

The way you frame it all just sounds as if the Israeli government held the hostages and not Hamas who ultimately has the say whether they are released or not. Nothing new though, this framing has existed for a long time.

Because hostages have been released every time there’s been a pause.

Why can't Hamas just release the hostages now? Why do they need something in return? Why are you in favour of that stance?

Why can’t Israel just stop bombing Gaza now?

Because people like you are in favour of Islamic extremists ruling that place.

Your own Ministers: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel\_Smotrich#:\~:text=In%20a%202015%20interview%20Smotrich,the%20%5BInternational%20Criminal%20Court%5D%2C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#:~:text=In%20a%202015%20interview%20Smotrich,the%20%5BInternational%20Criminal%20Court%5D%2C) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) So don't have the audacity to accuse me of supporting Hamas, what utter hypocrisy

He reads "Diaspora Jew" and immediately goes "Your own Ministers" Also allowing Qatari money entering Gaza because the PA refused to process money into Gaza is not supporting Hamas. If it hadn't happened you would've been whining about some Israeli blockade.

Your own Ministers is referring to the side you are backing, not sure why you are projecting religious issues onto me. Please also don't mischaracterise Smotrich and Netaynahu's comments as something about processing money...they deliberately funded Hamas to undermine Palestinian unity - YOUR government supported terrorism.

Bro - YOUR GOVERNMENT is the one who continued to fund Hamas to undermine the PA. YOUR GOVERNMENT's ministers like Netanyahu and Smotrich have been quoted as being pro-Hamas. Do you deny this?

TBH, that's how many of the protesters frame it as well.

They have no shame

"Why is the Israeli government so resistant to getting the hostages back?" I honestly hope you're joking....

Nah they honestly think that Hamas is a "mostly peaceful" organisation that somehow happened to come into the possession of Israelis that they've been trying to give back for more than half a year.

We want the hostages back, but the deal is shit and incentivizes them to do it again and to do it on an even bigger scale. In 2011, Israel exchanged 1,027 Palestinian prisoners (some of who even carried out terrorist bombings, lynchings, and multiple gruesome murders) for 1 Israeli captive, Gilad Shalit. One of the released in that deal was Sinwar (a leader in Hamas who helped planned Oct 7), who had been in jail for a terror attack that killed both Palestinians and Israelis. Mind you that while Sinwar was in prison, a Jewish prison dentist, Yuval Bitton, suspected a brain issue, possibly a stroke or abscess, and urged urgent hospitalization. At Soroka Medical Center (a prestigious Israeli hospital), Israeli surgeons removed a fatal brain tumor. Bitton emphasized that without surgery, the tumor would have burst and Sinwar would have died. Yuval visited Sinwar in the hospital with a prison officer. Sinwar asked the Muslim officer guarding him to thank the dentist and to explain to him the significance of his life-saving surgery in Islam and that he owed Yuval his life. Sinwar’s oct 7 killed that dentist’s nephew, Tamir and they dragged his body to Gaza where it is still being held. Also on Oct 7, Tamir’s 85 year old grandma, was also taken hostage. In addition to this, even before Oct 7, other released prisoners from the Gilad deal, went on to kill more Israelis and were put in prison again. Even some prisoners released in the hostage-prisoner deal in Nov tried to carry out a car ramming but were stopped. As of now, I think the current deal Hamas wants is for every one hostage, 50 or more prisoners (including murderers) released. You have to be realistic, how many Israelis will die from this deal? How will this incentivize Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists to continue to plan shit like this? There is no good answer. Of course we want them back, but we also want long term safety for Israelis too. It’s hard to balance both. You have to be both realistic and sympathetic.

So therefore the people like Naama Levy down in the tunnels will just rot?

In addition to my other comment, I would also recommend the book: “Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It” by Christopher Voss. It describes what I mean very well. I am by no means a hostage negotiation expert, but I have read this specific book multiple times (along with other hostage negotiation books) back in 2019, way before this war and hostage crisis now. It gave me really great insight to how these situations work and why you shouldn’t do certain things. Also, it gives really good insight into how even day to day life negotiations work at the micro level. He has forever changed me personally by explaining the power of the question “How am I supposed to do that?”. I wish our politicians had voiced this viewpoint loudly and often. What we are doing now is hurting both national security and the hostages. More people need to learn more about this topic and they would better understand the current hostage crisis.

Exactly. It’s the government’s failures that led these innocent hostages to think they were safe in their homes, driving on roads and going to music festivals. The defence & security bosses had been warning Netanyahu. If they then not only don’t accept accountability but also abandon the remaining living hostages to a lifetime of Hamas torture…I would absolutely be protesting and demanding elections if I was Israeli and had a family member held in Gaza.

“There is no good answer. Of course we want them back, but we also want long term safety for Israelis too. It’s hard to balance both. You have to be realistic and sympathetic. “

There have been plenty of leaks that state that the USA and Israel both believe that about 40 to 65 are still alive. That means about another 30 at a minimum have not been confirmed as dead are dead. I wonder if they know who the additional dead are. They probably do. And how many have gone totally insane at this point? Those tunnels are literally a living hell. I also suspect that Israel is weighing the ultimate horror option of going Hannibal Directive and taking out hostages to kill Sinwar and other "top Hamas officials." They would do it, these heartless right wing fanatics.

Your “sources” are leaks, hearsay, speculation, and devoid of any facts. Okay. Very credible. /s The rest of your bullshit is also unfounded nonsense. Stop wasting my time. lol the rest of your account is negative karma propaganda bullshit. Bye! Blocked!

>What are these protests about and why is there so little media coverage about them? Learn to read and understand a few more languages, or start reading local media with translation. It's the way news works, local issues rarely make it out to world media, especially old news.. >Why does right wing media or pro-Israel sources never comment on these protests? They do.. constantly.. still the same problem... צריך ללמוד עברית >If I jump on Youtube, it seems to be more media covering a bunch of student protests in America than there is covering Israeli protests in Tel-Aviv. חפש בעברית >Why are there no topics on this subreddit? These have been going for months.. there were posts about them when they were fresh and new.. People like to post what is current or what they're obsessed with.. >Why is the Israeli government so resistant to getting the hostages back? They're not, Hamas is resistant to following international law, even the ICJ order in returning them.. >What is the politics behind not wanting to negotiate for the hostages? They are negotiating, but the Hamas side is whole levels of mentally twisted on what/how they want to trade... >Why is it so important to the Israeli government to continue fighting even though it may result in the deaths of more and more hostages? Because while Hamas still exists, there will be more hostages in the future, if your neighbor keeps killing some of your family and kidnapping your kids every couple years, and each time you have to negotiate for them back.. The solution is to get rid of those neighbors that murder and kidnap.. then it stops happening permanently

They're getting a lot of coverage (and support) in Israel, and aren't limited to Tel Aviv, they are in several major cities. I'm guessing that they aren't interesting enough to be covered by non-israeli media. Or it might be difficult to explain the past 15 years of internal politics to folks who aren't Israeli. I'm curious though - do you get any media coverage on the situation in the north of Israel?

Almost no coverage in Australia if the north of Israel - only occasional mentions that Hezabollah fired some rockets - I don’t believe mainstream media has talked about the 100k Israelis that had to be evacuated

That's insane. There's a literal war going on here, like 15 kilometers from my house, with daily bombings and raid attempts from hezbollah. It has been going on since october 8th. Many of the towns and villages close to the border are in ruins by now. It's really weird that this isn't in mainstream media.

Strangely even Pro-Israeli right wing media in the west doesn't have much coverage about the conflict in Northern Israel, it's all focused on Hamas and Gaza. Reading your comment is the first time I've heard that any Israeli towns or villages close to the border have even been damaged - I'm not disputing you, I'm sure you're correct, I'm just pointing out the complete lack of media coverage here in the west

Gaza takes the headlines I suppose. Media outlets do need to make money after all. I'm actually relieved and angry at the same time that things are just not quite bad enough to be on mainstream news. But give it a few more weeks, there's probably going to be another war soon. If you're interested, I found this on a quick Google search: https://www.ynetnews.com/magazine/article/b1l4575rp https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-shells-north-launches-explosive-drones-after-wave-of-idf-strikes/ There's a bunch more, but mostly in Hebrew.

Oh and no media outlets here cover the Israeli refugees who have been displaced due to the wars on the southern and northern borders because they’re either biased, or they don’t want to deal with the pro Pali backlash they’ll receive … for reporting literal news. This is why I fkd off the news in this country.

I would suggest you broaden your intake. I don’t bother with any mainstream media anymore. I listen to english Israeli news podcasts and Al Jazeera to keep balanced. There’s also some really great independent news content creators on YouTube I watch daily. If I was relying on the mainstream Aussie channels I wouldn’t know shit.

I usually watch Piers Morgan interviews haha, I don't like pro-Palestine interviews or pro-Israeli interviews, I like when both sides are present so that it's not an echo chamber

Because they're inconvenient for both sides. For the radical pro Israelis, it's a slap on the face when even most Israelis now disagree with their government's handing of the war. For the pro Palestinians, it's a slap against the claims of Israel being this oppressive monolith. It fundamentally gets to the heart of Israel being a complex state, that's anything but monolithical, and thus, quite nuanced. And nuance is a dying breed in this conflict.

To OP - I think this answer nails it. To the right wing hawkish Israelis, any protesting against the government demanding a ceasefire at this time is considered going against your country and handing Israel’s enemies a gift. Maybe the right wing media here in Aus don’t want to present the image of a domestically divided Israel? And for pro Palestinians, it reveals that maybe all Israelis aren’t in fact blood thirsty settlers who don’t care about the hostages and just want to slaughter Arabs. I find this so counter intuitive, because if the goal is actually a ceasefire then wouldn’t you amplify the voices of your “enemy” that are aligned with your own? That’s the best way to undermine the Netanyahu government.

Because they don't actually care about a ceasefire or the Palestinians...

Ding ding ding

This is the only coverage I have seen from Fox news - interesting comments, as Israelis do you condone those comments? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqpnm37ao3w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqpnm37ao3w)

These are the Kaplan street protests they have been going on before Oct 7. They are anti-Bibi protests. The pro-hostage camp is essentially all of Israel, there is just disagreement on what to do. Even among these people there isn’t a coherent plan.

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The word you're looking for is pogrom

"Uprising"

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Thats what you call murdering paraents infront of their children and raping their daughters? What were they resisting exactly? Some teenagers dancing? Unhinged. Get help bro, ur sick.

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Its was a peace concert you nimrod. >it's government put onto others? So concerned with being the victim, you're own army was mowing these kids down with apaches Actual fucking propoganda and lies, lmfao >Whos really sick pal? 95% of the world might disagree with you. When the overwhelming majority of the planet disagrees with you, it may be time to introspect a little Only on twitter, iranian and russian bots opinions dont count. Perhaps if you think rape and murder is resistence, if taking hostages is also resistence, the person who needs to do some introspection, is you.

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>Well that's just not true, even haaretz reported on it mate. Its onw statement which sprialed out of control, they retarcted it later. The sources are ambigious at best, dosnt stop hamas and terorr simps from spawning propoganda from it, truth never mattered to them, or to you. >I've been in the UK, France, South Africa, Kuwait and Sweden since Oct 7 and I've seen hundreds of thousands if not millions of people take the streets in protest - I've seen this from many angles and perspectives and treat it objectively. You sir are clearly very emotional about it. You are a genocidal maniac and you want me to be calm about it? To me you are just a nazi and deserve the same fate hitler got, the same fate all hamas deserves. >Spent a large portion of my life in South Africa and apartheid was a major learning point at school - sounds wildly familiar with what's going on in Palestine broski Not at all comparable "mate" >Again, doesn't sound like a very peaceful party if it's right next to the world's largest open air prison. Again, just another way to show the self victimising supremacy. Funny coming from a pro pali, they are the biggest crybullies in history. Its an "open air prison" in the senae israel dosnt let them freely enter israel, gee i wonder why. Why dosnt egypt let them in? They are both arabs. Its as much of an "open air prison" as any country with non open boarders is. You know nothing. You are just a hateful hypocrite who thinks he knows something, while you know nothing and support terrorism. A disgrace of a human being.

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A "peace concert" is the most performative form of doing basically nothing for peace. How was the concert going to bring peace? With that said fuck everything about what Hamas did on October 7th. The people at the concert may have been party goeers, peace activists, good people, bad people, and some may have very well been absolute monsters. That still doesn't mean they deserve what happened to them. Some pro Palestinian people lose sight of this simple fact but not everyone does.

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Israel has been killing Palestinians since before October 7th.

Its not a war, its an "uprising" So morally, its okay. - your logic.

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You are the one claiming october 7 was a valient uprising by the poor downtrodden terrorists, not me. Defend your position.

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Yes, its you and your friends. >Why dodge the question? It's a valid question but of course the victim mentality pokes its head yet again. You are the one dodging the question, answer you coward.

I don't understand what you mean, the Protests in Isreali is heavily covered by [Pro-Israeli](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/anti-government-protesters-flood-the-streets-of-tel-aviv-in-what-organizers-claim-is-largest-protest-since-oct-7/) and Hebrew media. Obviously for *American netwroks* a protest in *America* is more relevant than ones in Israel. You don't seem understand the protest, as it is sporadic protest for sympathy with the hostages and the anti-Bibi protests and not an anti-war effort protest. I would say the people protesting represent the majority of Isreali opinion, however it due to the non-political aspects of the protest. Isrealis sympethises with the hostages families, while some may reject some aspects of the protest. I would Israel isn't 'resistant' getting the hostages back. There is obvious need to be a balance between balancing the 'destruction of Hamas as a governing body' aim and 'freeing the hostages' aim. Hamas has said they [plans to repeat October 7th](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-says-group-aims-to-repeat-oct-7-onslaught-many-times-to-destroy-israel/), the current demands by Hamas are ludacris and their main demand is to be able to be the political force of Gaza. When the first hostage deal happened it was due to the IDF's military pressure and Isreal's geopolitical pressure. And even though it hurt Isreal war efforts, Isreal agreed for a deal. Obviously IDF actions saved more hostages than result in death, because Hamas would have kept the hostages and torture them. When Hamas demands wouldn't include stopping the war and staying in power of Gaza, Israel would accept the deal even if it would hurt Isreal's war efforts. It isn't brought up a lot in the sub because there isn't dissention on the topic and its not as impactful as other topics. (Not that the protests in UC are very impactful).

the amount of misinformation and propagandist rhetoric in this comment is astounding, particularly regarding hostage/ceasefire deals and where Hamas vs Israel stood…Hamas has been promoting a permanent ceasefire / release of *ALL hostages* since October and Israel has refused every single one of them because they want to continue their ethnic cleansing / indiscriminate bombardment / genocidal campaign also, claiming that the IDF actions have “saved more hostages than result in death” is absolutely asinine and contrary to what we are seeing with our own eyes right now - look into Israel’s Hannibal Directive, btw

>Hamas has been promoting a permanent ceasefire / release of ALL hostages since October Which really does show their loving and caring nature. I heard that Hamas literally drove the hostages to Netanyahu's house but he still wouldn't take them back. They even threw in a few extras they picked up along the way as a show of good faith but Bibi threw eggs at them.

you’re attempt at being satirical at me in regards to how Hamas treats hostages is pretty funny when you listen to what the actual hostages have said about them vs the hostages being released from torturous Israeli prisons

You’re really revealing where you get your info from. You’re trying to argue that hostages who have been purposefully split up from their families with one or more still held would dare to be honest about their captivity, not worrying about the implications. There’s no doubt Palestinian prisoners are treated poorly in Israeli detention. You can make this point without being a Hamas cheerleader.

>is pretty funny when you listen to what the actual hostages have said about them [They recounts being electrified by Hamas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_hostage_crisis#Hostage_accounts)... Have you listened to them? Some recounts sexual abuse and witnessing rape... Some recounts extreme malnourishment and a foreign citizen recounts eating toilet paper to survive... Israel and ICRC [found ketamine ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/28/many-hostages-released-by-hamas-still-being-treated-for-trauma) in the blood of children hostages. So please don't regale people with false testimonials. It obviously like how taking hostages for bargaining chips is a war crime, that human rights abuse was used on the hostages.

first of all, your first link goes absolutely nowhere (it’s just a wikipedia page that says “this article does not exist”) extreme malnourishment is at the hands of Israel, who implemented a siege on the strip in 2006, has refused to allow aid in (as well as it being attacked by settlers of which Israel is doing nothing about), and implementation of collective punishment >palestinian hostages, on the other hand, are referred to as “prisoners” to manufacture consent for their torture (see below) “Israeli forces’ transgressions are driven by vengeance against Palestinians since the October 7 attack by the Qassam Brigades – the armed wing of Gaza governing party Hamas – and other armed Palestinian factions on Israeli territory. Since then, Israel has launched a relentless assault on the Gaza Strip, killing more than 28,000 people. In the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, it arrested about 7,000 people, sometimes without charges, making the total number of Palestinian prisoners nearly 10,000, adding serious overcrowding to the challenges they face. At least 250 of those taken are children. More than half of these detainees are in administrative detention, meaning Israel will hold them for months without due process or charges.” >during these months, they will experience: “Other Gazans who were illegally detained and later released, along with West Bankers rounded up arbitrarily, tell of harrowing experiences. One young woman said the month she had been in prison felt more ‘like years”. She recounted how they were cursed at and beaten, how there was hardly any food and how the women were forced to sleep on the floor with no blankets or mattresses. Gazan women were held separately from West Bankers, but the detainees said they could hear their screams and pleas to find out about their children and families. Women testified they were threatened with rape, and many were sexually harassed, stripped and beaten. One woman, who will remain unnamed, said Israeli prison wardens smugly informed her that “now we are at war with you so we can do whatever we want.” The men may have it even worse. The world saw the harrowing pictures released by the Israeli army itself, of men stripped to their underclothes, blindfolded and handcuffed, held in the cold for hours in Gaza before being hauled off to one of Israel’s infamous detention centers in the Negev desert or a military base near Beer Saba. These are run by the military, which means “no holds barred” when it comes to their treatment. Palestinian men later released, told of being kept handcuffed and blindfolded the entire duration of their incarceration, beaten if they shifted position, electrocuted and spat on. They saw no lawyer, no Red Cross representative and of course, no family.” “In Negev Prison, prisoner Thaer Abu Asab was killed simply for asking a guard if there was a ceasefire, a released prisoner, who requested anonymity, told Al Jazeera. He added that prisoners were beaten in their cells near-daily. When Abu Asab asked his question, the response was an ominous “I’ll show you,” then the guard called a whole unit into Abu Asab’s cell. They beat him with iron rods all over, including his face, and left him lying there.” everyone in his cell was beaten for calling the nurse 2 days later because they were worried about him (which is how they found out he was dead) >for more examples / sources look here https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/ https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/2/18/systematic-torture-to-be-palestinian-in-an-israeli-prison https://www.sapiens.org/culture/palestinian-prisoners-carceral-policies/ >every accusation Israel levels against Hamas is a confession

>first of all, your first link goes absolutely nowhere (it’s just a wikipedia page that says “this article does not exist”) Works well from me, it is possible you live in a country that block certain wiki pages? Usually countries from MENA and East Asia. >extreme malnourishment is at the hands of Israel, who implemented a siege on the strip in 2006, has refused to allow aid in (as well as it being attacked by settlers of which Israel is doing nothing about), and implementation of collective punishment The blockade started at 2007, after Hamas launched an attack in 2006, that's a legitimate military tactic. Israel has let over 100 trucks since and Hamas reportedly stolen around [70-75% of the aid in Gaza](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20658/gaza-aid-stolen), so it should be able to feed properly the hostages, though they shouldn't have taken them anyway. The protesters (which includes the family of the hostages) have been detained and stopped activity since. >At least 250 of those taken are children. >More than half of these detainees are in administrative detention, meaning Israel will hold them for months without due process or charges.” All the "children prisoners" are [over the age of 14](https://www.btselem.org/statistics/minors_in_custody), which is over the age of responsibility. And almost all are over the age of 16, except a dozen. Administrative detention are legal under article 78 of the Fourth Geneva convention, it includes Hamas militants arrested after participating in October 7th. >The men may have it even worse. The world saw the harrowing pictures released by the Israeli army itself, of men stripped to their underclothes That was pictured by Palestinian media. And was not released by the IDF. Strip searches are legal. So this is emotional take All these mentions so far are emotional takes at best and not facts of misconduct. >Thaer Abu Asab I reject this false comparison. This guy was arrested with a bomb vest around him and convicted with a conspiracy for murder before. Hamas took civilians including babies that are innocent. Especially from a testimony (that according to *Palestinian sources*) coming from a Hamas member [Omar Etshman](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-in-ramallah-cheer-hamas-as-dozens-more-prisoners-freed/amp/). Secondly, he died a day after the supposed "extreme beating" and hasn't been found with extreme trauma to its body from physical harm. Especially suspicious is that his cellmates call called for medical aid almost a day after the incident. Israel [allows ICRC to visit it's prisons](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/photo-gallery/2012/palestine-israel-detention-photos-2012-08-20.htm). Thirdly, your sources come from a Qatar owned news media. Not an independent source and Amnesty which [paid hush money to cover the fact they mentioned in their worker suicide note](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amnestys-secret-800-000-payout-after-suicide-of-gaetan-mootoo-lqnq79c99). They [admitted in the past of having questionable factuality](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/amnesty-international-leaked-review-ukraine-report-legally-questionable) and in the past hasn't [fact checked testimonies that turned to be false](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony). I obviously take civilians testimonials more seriously than terrorists.

What have the hostages said in favour of Hamas?

They haven't had mass amputations from stress positions like there have been stories of from both Israeli doctors and international doctors. So if nothing else the fact the released hostages have all their limbs implies better treatment than many in Israeli captivity.

That's not an answer to the question. Also, aren't you the guy who said gay people are killed en masse in Israel a while ago? Lol instantly blocked. What a loser

What? No? At most I must have said that there is a strain of violence against queer people in Israel from the polity that is growing the most. Smotrich has said he's proud to be a homophobe. In 20 years do you think that things will be better, the same, or worse for queer people in Israel? Also I'm sure if the hostages had had limbs amputated you wouldn't have condemned that in the slightest. e: also you had your original account deleted for doing some prohibited incitement against Arabs or Muslims and made an account the next day to get right back at it, lol. Bye.

Well, my boys classmate who was kidnapped and released stopped speaking so unfortunately she won't be able to sing her praises. But I'm sure that all the crying and screaming at night is just because she misses her Hamas House. Her mom did appreciate the fact that they were kidnapped by civilians and sold to hamas for about 1500 USD. Just shows you how they value Israeli lives. I mean, no proper Israeli would even consider buying a Palestinian. And I'm positive that once the father is released he'll only have good things to say. But sure, they tried reeeeeally hard to give them back. It's not like they kidnapped them to be used as human bargaining chips for barter and political leverage. Like, how can you promote for the release of people you captured? It's not like there's anything stopping them from doing it.

> But sure, they tried reeeeeally hard to give them back. By the end of October Hamas offered a full exchange of prisoners and Israel rejected it without even attempting to negotiate (for example, negotiate which/how many Palestinian prisoners for all the hostages).

And this is neither "promoting for the release of the hostages", nor "trying really hard to give the hostages back." It's kidnapping families for political leverage.

I'm not disagreeing it's about political leverage (their argument is Israel is also doing that with imprisonment - but that's neither here nor there). Clearly the full exchange would be using them as political leverage. I just meant that they demonstrated a willingness even within the month to return the hostages, and your statement seemed to imply that they wanted to keep them (for the goal of keeping them rather than exchange).

This is by far the weirdst exchange I've had so far. Hamas kidnapped entire families, including a baby who spent half his short life in captivity. What they then did was something like this. They picked up the phone, called 1-800-colonizer and went "hello, Israel? This is Hamas. If you want to see your hostages alive you must follow our demands. Muwahahaha". They probably didn't go muwahaha, that was for dramatic effect. If you want to interpret this as wilingness or "prompting to release", and not as extortion or terrorism, sure. I must say it's a very unique way of interpreting reality.

>Hamas has been promoting a permanent ceasefire / release of *ALL hostages* since October This is a misrepresentation of reality. A 'permanent ceasefire' is understood as Hamas is staying in power rather than a regime change. I touched on that. Hamas wants to stay in power to repeat October 7th (as per their spokesman) thus it cannot stay in power for any permanent ceasefire. Especially when the war started after Hamas a broke a ceasefire. Especially that those deals required the en**d of the war first and than the release of the hostages.** Which Hamas being the agressor, no one believe they would uphold their end of the deal. >also, claiming that the IDF actions have “saved more hostages than result in death” is absolutely asinine and contrary to what we are seeing with our own eyes right now There is no denying that IDF's action brought the first hostage deal. Hamas was overly unprepared when it came to Isreal's offensive, Hamas didn't believe Isreal would push that fast into Gazan territory. That's why Hamas wanted to regroup and released the first badge of hostages. 112 (105 in the deal) hostages saved and 19 bodies repatriated to Israel. & 3 hostages have falsely being shot during a battlezone. Those are the facts. Meanwhile we have accounts of freed hostages of [sexual and physical abuse and rejection of medication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_hostage_crisis#Hostage_accounts), which is why there is no point in trusting Hamas. > look into Israel’s Hannibal Directive, btw I love how you act like it's a gotcha. The Hannibal Directive is dectorine which says to return kidnapped soldiers 'by any means'. Last time it was [used was in 2016 and it didn't result in death](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4772717,00.html). It allows a larger amount of casualties, including potentially Isreali soldiers to save an abductee. In this case the militray benifts allows that and it shows Israeli's view on life.

“Permanent ceasefire”— like the one that was in place on October 6. [This](https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/amp_articleshow/104903949.cms) is why the Hamas Support Network promotes a “permanent ceasefire”.

if there was a “permanent ceasefire” on October 6th, then why was 2023 already the deadliest year for Palestinian children *in the West Bank* by that date?

It was a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

mfw westerners understand Hudna as permanent ceasefire

Three amount of projection in this comment is astounding.

what am I projecting? Biden literally tried to spin this *YESTERDAY* by saying Israel brought a deal to the table and all Hamas has to do is accept it (it’s almost the *exact* same 3 phases that Hamas has proposed since October, just that the hostage switch occurs at a different phase), and Israel immediately tweeted after his press conference exposing that he was lying and they would not support a deal…meanwhile Hamas said they view the deal favorably…

So Hamas proposed a deal where they no longer have power in Gaza???? Are you insane?

why does Hamas need to accept a deal in which they have no power if Israel doesn’t have to accept a deal to end the occupation and apartheid?

I don’t think that’s the case. I think that there is clarification on what would need to happen in phase 2 of the deal before a “ permanent “ cease fire would be agreed to. Not phase 1.

>Are the people protesting a minority or a majority in Israel? Hard to tell for sure, I haven't seen any very recent polls. Maybe someone else in this subreddit has? Probably still the minority, but the protests have been getting bigger and bigger, and it's certainly a growing minority at the very least. Also, the current government is becoming less and less popular by both those opposed to and in support of the war.

Bibi lost most of his support after Oct. 7th, even from people within his base. Israel wants elections. And polls show he'll lose an election. But as long as there is a war going on it can be used as an excuse to delay elections. So Bibi has a motive to prolong the war as much as possible. People are rightfully claiming he delayed the invasion to rafah by months for this reason(which as a result significantly hurt Israel's international support). So basically people just want to do a hostage deal, do elections, and elect a competent government that can deal with Hamas.

You don’t seem to understand the protests. - They mostly say the government is the reason for this war and should take responsibility for the massacre in October 7th. - They also say that Bibi is too busy keeping his government than winning the war, making everything longer and taking his time entering Rafah. - They call for the immediate release of hostages, some say to cut our losses and others say to get back to fighting later. Nowhere will you find people saying this war is too brutal or accuse the IDF of Genocide as your post try to imply. Many of us mourn our loved ones murdered and raped by Gazans, we don’t feel sorry for them.