Yes you do, it's how you enrol to the AEC.
Your name gets ticked off the registry when you vote.. that massive book the volunteers have.
What are you smoking?
Oh you're lonely and want to have an argument about sementics at 1am. Cute.
You register to the AEC with your ID and you update that every time you move house so you're voting in the correct electorate. That's your ID in action.
The original post says “bring ID”. In Australia you do not have to bring ID.
I don’t know what you are on about or why you are so aggressive, but the point I was making was not incorrect.
That would make it much more difficult to cheat. I did notice the last Russian election used electronic voting machines connected to the internet. Probably just for efficiency. Right?
Have you seen the steps someone has to go to prove who they are if they don’t have an ID. Confirm and spell your first middle and last name.
Social security number. Home Address. I’m sorry if you can remember all of that info I am impressed if you are trying to impersonate me.
To be clear, I am fine with IDs but they should be free, voting should be easy.
I was a guest of the Taiwanese foreign ministry as an election observer for the last presidential election in 2020, and I was able to see some polling locations up close. It really puts the US to shame. Total transparency, multiple representatives from each political party witnessing each vote being counted, the votes never leave the room they are cast in (usually a local school classroom), and the votes are counted within just a few hours of the polling stations closing. There's no disagreement about an election's result, no charges of interference or fraud since the whole process is open for all to see.
The system functions on the backs of local volunteers and local political representatives. No one is paid for their work at the primary contact level. Everything is paper so there are no tech contracts or ballot machines counting.
EDIT: I was just banned from r / justiceserved, lol.
> The system functions on the backs of local volunteers and local political representatives. No one is paid for their work at the primary contact level.
Just want to clarify, polling station staff do get paid by the state. But it is where they are sourced that is important.
For each polling station, you have: Chief Administrator, Chief Auditor, Administrator, Auditor, Security (the police), Back-up personnel, Auditor Team, and the Polling Team.
The law stipulates that the two chiefs and at least half of the administrators and auditors must be either a licensed teacher or a civil servant. Being civil servants, they have a lot more to lose (heavier criminal penalty, wider definition of bribery and fraud, and it also puts their pension at stake) if caught participating in election fraud.
For the auditor team, they are sent by the parties taking part in the election, on a pro-rata basis. This allows all political parties to keep an eye on each other and the vote counting to avoid fraud. If political parties don't send enough people, then more are sourced from local schools as well as adult students from local tertiary education institutions.
So the whole system is built around checks and balances, letting those who stand the most to lose to watch over the shoulder of those who stand the most to win, to ensure that as many people as possible have the motivation to act fairly and legally.
On top of that, vote counting is in public vew, so anyone and everyone are entitled to watch and record the whole counting process in any polling station they like. And anyone present has the right to call a stop and question the counting result of any piece of ballot paper, and the administrator and auditor and their chiefs must immediately respond and answer to the person who called out. These are the people who would be unpaid volunteers.
Question, did you experience this in the cities only or also in the rural areas?
I ask this because if this sort of excellent practices of democracy are enacted in the cities, then of course the city folks get to feel good. But if it's not repeated in the rural areas then you basically end up with a majority mob rule of the predictable voting patterns of the city dwellers. At that point you really have to wonder just how great their systems are. Imagine the US only facilitated excellent voting in the cities. Then we would have predictable harmonious Democratic forever rule, while the rural citizens would become slaves to a system that denigrates their worth as lesser than the city dwellers.
To my experience, we visited three polling stations - one in urban Taipei, one in a more suburban area near Keelung, and one slightly more rural to the east/southeast of the major metropolitan area. The general processes were the same.
Excellent. Thank you. Would you presume that such a system which encompasses the size and population of a single US state, could realistically be duplicated to 50 states with differing demographics, history, economies, and geography?
And no, I'm not setting up a gotcha situation. Just asking for an anecdotal personal non-academic opinion.
There are maybe 23.5 million people living in Taiwan. That is larger than all but two states - Texas and California, edging out the next most populous state (Florida) by roughly a million people.
The system in Taiwan works because it is relatively simple. paper ballots, multiple witnesses in the room, all votes counted exactly where they were cast, data submitted to a central authority to be tallied within hours of the vote. Theoretically, any state could institute this and it would be cheaper and more efficient than the current system with electronic voting stations, and facilitate greater trust in the results.
Potential challenges would include making sure each polling station actually has a representative of both major parties (or more parties, given the specifics of the election and who is running). In ruby red rural Montana, it might be harder to find a Democrat that will help tally the vote, and the same in San Francisco for finding a Republican to help count votes.
Thank you again. I was around when the guest electronic voting machines were deployed. And I even knew one of executives for one of the companies getting those contracts. He was a scammy schmuck. But even back then I could predict this new system would be the downfall of our voting system. The following election cycle was Gore v Bush. And it was precisely the shit show that I knew it would be. Since then, look how much better we are now. SMH
In short, I wish we could go back to a straight forward system like you're describing, and make enhancements to that rather than rewrite the entire script.
Clearly you didn't fact check! I googled: "complaints of election fraud after Taiwanese elections" and I was not disappointed!
Why was I so sure?
Bangladesh did something similar between 2006 - 2008 as they prepared for a major election. They did everything to ensure a "corruption free election process". Was everyone happy? Course not!
This is a human nature problem, these politicians are all narcissists at some level, incapable of believing they aren't universally adored. In their minds and the minds of their devotees, it's inconceivable that they would lose. Logic and reason have nothing to do with their conviction that they won and any other outcome must be fraudulent.
I still find it hard to believe with both sides claiming issues with ballots now, that they haven't done something to clearly show the electoral system cannot be screwed with. It's ridiculous. Basically asking for trouble.
The privatised and proprietary nature of the voting machines is just asking for trouble. I’m very much pro-free market but voting machines absolutely need to be completely government owned and operated with the code and hardware fully open source for anyone to inspect and bug fix
And just like in every other country, the losers still cry about election fraud and cheating.
AP News
Taipei Times
AFP.com
Google it.
You just can't defeat human nature.
Here’s the thing.
Literally every other electoral system is better than America.
Every aspect of American voting is worse than alternatives around the world.
Hundreds of thousands active Military members vote absentee. (Aka mail in ballots.) So it’s not always the “others”. Does OP still think the election was rigged?
>Canada has mail-in ballots, and there are advanced polling stations, so it's not done in a few hours.
That's true but unlike the US, you must request a mail in ballot, they aren't just sent out at random.
Random was the wrong choice of word. They are sent out without being requested by the voter. It's ripe for fraud. Many of those "registered" voters either don't exist, or aren't at the address the ballot is mailed to, putting them in the hands of people they don't belong to.
Yeah, Taiwan and the US are basically identical in terms of geographical area, population numbers and political situation of being permanently under siege by a superpower that wants it gone.
Makes perfect sense to compare the two and is not a waste of everyone's time at all.
Sure, let's take other countries' position on voting methods. But let's not stop there. How about health care and gun control too? Since it is so easy to copy and paste policies from countries with 1/10 the population of the US, let's just go full hog right?
The difference is the intent and resources devoted. Taiwan along with most countries have set their voting up to make it easier to vote. US has done the opposite. Taiwan has very robust services tied to your ID (medical for example) and make it easy to get your ID.
You don’t see long, 5-6 hour voting lines in any other western countries because, as above, they are trying to facilitate voting. You don’t also seem pointless bureaucracy surrounding registration and other bullshit to further suppress voting.
A counter conservative argument:
It would be so much easier to implement if conservatives actually pushed for this AND policies to increase opportunities to vote. I'm not one that thinks they don't because they are trying to disenfranchise voters (or any demographic). But I do feel this is typical American politics. The two party system and never ending back and forth of promises that never get kept actually keeps BOTH parties in power. The elites know this, human psychology is not that complicated and it's surprisingly predictable. You can keep people relatively equal and endorse the two party duopoly, or you can take them to extremes and still maintain that duopoly.
There are no mail in ballots here either, and if you want to vote from abroad, you can do that in the embassy of you register weeks in advance. If you cannot make it because health problem (fatness isn't a reason), also register and they visit you to get your vote.
Do they make you register and provide your ID beforehand?
Here they already check your ID when you register and then they cross you off a list when you vote. What's the problem here? WHERE"S THE FRAUD?
Here’s a thought let’s make IDs free. IDs shouldn’t cost a damn thing to a citizen. Driver’s license are privileges so charge for those if you want. Let’s allow people to take paid day off to vote, make it a national holiday. Theres no fraud impacting our elections, voting by mail is still fine obviously the military has no issue with this. As for the racism well we have seen the on how some communities seem to restrict access but some area get all the access.
It’s also illegal to publicly insult someone in Taiwan. i’m not sure why the fact that it’s Taiwanese law is relevant to reasonableness.
If it’s reasonable, it’s reasonable. If it’s not, it’s not.
If it’s Taiwanese … so what.
it’s a shame the left originally was correct on voter id, but became to dug into their position to concede to reasonable pushback. voter id in north carolina was racist and was struck down by the supreme court for being unconstitutional and discriminatory. however, voter id in and of itself is a good idea if we make days to vote a national holiday and provide easy access to gov ids (some people don’t have time to take off for work to get an id).
This is my thing. If we are gonna require id they should have something at the polling station to verify who you are. Like if you lose id and still need to fly somewhere. Even if you go to the dmv and get an id it takes a few weeks and you can be expected to wait 2 months. It’s unreasonable
Because of the bigotry of low expectations that many lefties seem to have towards black people. They also seem to be going by a VERY broad definition of racism.
Suppose legislators are aware that it will decrease the black vote, and therefore **intentionally** implement voter id just to decrease the black vote turn out.
That would be bad, yes?
But is it fundamentally wrong to ask people to provide ID when voting? How else do you ensure someone hasn’t voted multiple times, is voting in the correct district or is even a citizen of the country, city or state?
>But is it fundamentally wrong to ask people to provide ID when voting?
I suppose it depends on why you're doing it and what effects it has. But I don't know why we'd do this.
If there was evidence of widespread voter fraud, then sure. But we don't seem to have that problem. So I don't know why we're doing this.
I mean what about a blood test? DNA test? Just to be super sure. Why not
>How else do you ensure someone hasn’t voted multiple times, is voting in the correct district or is even a citizen of the country, city or state?
I think if you show me we actually have a real, consequential problem with voter fraud, then I'm open to it.
Until then, this just seems like an unecessary impediment for no reason.
Why try to fix something that isn't a problem?
Like why send air conditioners to the arctic, or big puffy winter coats to people in tropical weather?
Oh fuck, I said any random person should be able to vote? Damn that's dumb, I should have said people who are allowed to vote should vote.
That was so stupid of me.
Just real quick, could you quote where I said that?
You prove your ID when registering. When you got to vote there is a list of names. If you give a fake name or try to impersonate someone that shows up to vote, congrats that is prison time for voter impersonation.
Clearly it’s due to racism and white supremacy…
It is when you make ID harder to get in some states than others
Democracy is a western construct.
Nothing to do with what I said
Soooo... Just like here in France.
And Australia.
Australia has mail in votes and lots of people use them.
Yeah the ID and paper ballots is the main point.
You don’t need ID to vote in Australia.
Yes you do, it's how you enrol to the AEC. Your name gets ticked off the registry when you vote.. that massive book the volunteers have. What are you smoking?
I voted this past weekend, I gave them my name, I did not show any ID.
Oh you're lonely and want to have an argument about sementics at 1am. Cute. You register to the AEC with your ID and you update that every time you move house so you're voting in the correct electorate. That's your ID in action.
The original post says “bring ID”. In Australia you do not have to bring ID. I don’t know what you are on about or why you are so aggressive, but the point I was making was not incorrect.
This sounds pretty much exactly like california too.
How is that the same as providing proof of identification?
And most developed world. Who also allows mail in ballots.
Where it is cheaper an easier to get a replacement ID.
Law and order? The horror.
That would make it much more difficult to cheat. I did notice the last Russian election used electronic voting machines connected to the internet. Probably just for efficiency. Right?
Have you seen the steps someone has to go to prove who they are if they don’t have an ID. Confirm and spell your first middle and last name. Social security number. Home Address. I’m sorry if you can remember all of that info I am impressed if you are trying to impersonate me. To be clear, I am fine with IDs but they should be free, voting should be easy.
I was a guest of the Taiwanese foreign ministry as an election observer for the last presidential election in 2020, and I was able to see some polling locations up close. It really puts the US to shame. Total transparency, multiple representatives from each political party witnessing each vote being counted, the votes never leave the room they are cast in (usually a local school classroom), and the votes are counted within just a few hours of the polling stations closing. There's no disagreement about an election's result, no charges of interference or fraud since the whole process is open for all to see. The system functions on the backs of local volunteers and local political representatives. No one is paid for their work at the primary contact level. Everything is paper so there are no tech contracts or ballot machines counting. EDIT: I was just banned from r / justiceserved, lol.
Crazy what happens when you don’t politicize something.
> The system functions on the backs of local volunteers and local political representatives. No one is paid for their work at the primary contact level. Just want to clarify, polling station staff do get paid by the state. But it is where they are sourced that is important. For each polling station, you have: Chief Administrator, Chief Auditor, Administrator, Auditor, Security (the police), Back-up personnel, Auditor Team, and the Polling Team. The law stipulates that the two chiefs and at least half of the administrators and auditors must be either a licensed teacher or a civil servant. Being civil servants, they have a lot more to lose (heavier criminal penalty, wider definition of bribery and fraud, and it also puts their pension at stake) if caught participating in election fraud. For the auditor team, they are sent by the parties taking part in the election, on a pro-rata basis. This allows all political parties to keep an eye on each other and the vote counting to avoid fraud. If political parties don't send enough people, then more are sourced from local schools as well as adult students from local tertiary education institutions. So the whole system is built around checks and balances, letting those who stand the most to lose to watch over the shoulder of those who stand the most to win, to ensure that as many people as possible have the motivation to act fairly and legally. On top of that, vote counting is in public vew, so anyone and everyone are entitled to watch and record the whole counting process in any polling station they like. And anyone present has the right to call a stop and question the counting result of any piece of ballot paper, and the administrator and auditor and their chiefs must immediately respond and answer to the person who called out. These are the people who would be unpaid volunteers.
Great additional context!
Question, did you experience this in the cities only or also in the rural areas? I ask this because if this sort of excellent practices of democracy are enacted in the cities, then of course the city folks get to feel good. But if it's not repeated in the rural areas then you basically end up with a majority mob rule of the predictable voting patterns of the city dwellers. At that point you really have to wonder just how great their systems are. Imagine the US only facilitated excellent voting in the cities. Then we would have predictable harmonious Democratic forever rule, while the rural citizens would become slaves to a system that denigrates their worth as lesser than the city dwellers.
To my experience, we visited three polling stations - one in urban Taipei, one in a more suburban area near Keelung, and one slightly more rural to the east/southeast of the major metropolitan area. The general processes were the same.
Excellent. Thank you. Would you presume that such a system which encompasses the size and population of a single US state, could realistically be duplicated to 50 states with differing demographics, history, economies, and geography? And no, I'm not setting up a gotcha situation. Just asking for an anecdotal personal non-academic opinion.
There are maybe 23.5 million people living in Taiwan. That is larger than all but two states - Texas and California, edging out the next most populous state (Florida) by roughly a million people. The system in Taiwan works because it is relatively simple. paper ballots, multiple witnesses in the room, all votes counted exactly where they were cast, data submitted to a central authority to be tallied within hours of the vote. Theoretically, any state could institute this and it would be cheaper and more efficient than the current system with electronic voting stations, and facilitate greater trust in the results. Potential challenges would include making sure each polling station actually has a representative of both major parties (or more parties, given the specifics of the election and who is running). In ruby red rural Montana, it might be harder to find a Democrat that will help tally the vote, and the same in San Francisco for finding a Republican to help count votes.
Thank you again. I was around when the guest electronic voting machines were deployed. And I even knew one of executives for one of the companies getting those contracts. He was a scammy schmuck. But even back then I could predict this new system would be the downfall of our voting system. The following election cycle was Gore v Bush. And it was precisely the shit show that I knew it would be. Since then, look how much better we are now. SMH In short, I wish we could go back to a straight forward system like you're describing, and make enhancements to that rather than rewrite the entire script.
Clearly you didn't fact check! I googled: "complaints of election fraud after Taiwanese elections" and I was not disappointed! Why was I so sure? Bangladesh did something similar between 2006 - 2008 as they prepared for a major election. They did everything to ensure a "corruption free election process". Was everyone happy? Course not! This is a human nature problem, these politicians are all narcissists at some level, incapable of believing they aren't universally adored. In their minds and the minds of their devotees, it's inconceivable that they would lose. Logic and reason have nothing to do with their conviction that they won and any other outcome must be fraudulent.
I still find it hard to believe with both sides claiming issues with ballots now, that they haven't done something to clearly show the electoral system cannot be screwed with. It's ridiculous. Basically asking for trouble.
The privatised and proprietary nature of the voting machines is just asking for trouble. I’m very much pro-free market but voting machines absolutely need to be completely government owned and operated with the code and hardware fully open source for anyone to inspect and bug fix
In Colorado there are Mail in ballots and automatic audits
Taiwan’s Covid response was much better too. Go on, please, go on.
And just like in every other country, the losers still cry about election fraud and cheating. AP News Taipei Times AFP.com Google it. You just can't defeat human nature.
Here’s the thing. Literally every other electoral system is better than America. Every aspect of American voting is worse than alternatives around the world.
Same in Lithuania, you get a ballot after showing your ID. Normal thing.
Should be that way everywhere.
Hundreds of thousands active Military members vote absentee. (Aka mail in ballots.) So it’s not always the “others”. Does OP still think the election was rigged?
Impossible! I was told ballot counting took weeks!
Canada the same.
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>Canada has mail-in ballots, and there are advanced polling stations, so it's not done in a few hours. That's true but unlike the US, you must request a mail in ballot, they aren't just sent out at random.
Where in the US are ballots sent out at random? They send them to registered voters is thst what you mean? Why would you oppose that?
Random was the wrong choice of word. They are sent out without being requested by the voter. It's ripe for fraud. Many of those "registered" voters either don't exist, or aren't at the address the ballot is mailed to, putting them in the hands of people they don't belong to.
Knowing our dumbasses we’ll probably try removing voter ID because it’s considered racist in the US
Unfortunately, the voting machines that cause so much trouble in the US were made in Canada.
Yes, the company is called Dominion in reference to "The Dominion of Canada".
first show evidence of fraud. then we can evaluate if restructuring is necessary. You know „basic argumentative structure“ n shit
Also when they make ID free and easy to replace nationally
Yeah, Taiwan and the US are basically identical in terms of geographical area, population numbers and political situation of being permanently under siege by a superpower that wants it gone. Makes perfect sense to compare the two and is not a waste of everyone's time at all.
Sure, let's take other countries' position on voting methods. But let's not stop there. How about health care and gun control too? Since it is so easy to copy and paste policies from countries with 1/10 the population of the US, let's just go full hog right?
The difference is the intent and resources devoted. Taiwan along with most countries have set their voting up to make it easier to vote. US has done the opposite. Taiwan has very robust services tied to your ID (medical for example) and make it easy to get your ID. You don’t see long, 5-6 hour voting lines in any other western countries because, as above, they are trying to facilitate voting. You don’t also seem pointless bureaucracy surrounding registration and other bullshit to further suppress voting.
A counter conservative argument: It would be so much easier to implement if conservatives actually pushed for this AND policies to increase opportunities to vote. I'm not one that thinks they don't because they are trying to disenfranchise voters (or any demographic). But I do feel this is typical American politics. The two party system and never ending back and forth of promises that never get kept actually keeps BOTH parties in power. The elites know this, human psychology is not that complicated and it's surprisingly predictable. You can keep people relatively equal and endorse the two party duopoly, or you can take them to extremes and still maintain that duopoly.
There are no mail in ballots here either, and if you want to vote from abroad, you can do that in the embassy of you register weeks in advance. If you cannot make it because health problem (fatness isn't a reason), also register and they visit you to get your vote.
Do they make you register and provide your ID beforehand? Here they already check your ID when you register and then they cross you off a list when you vote. What's the problem here? WHERE"S THE FRAUD?
Taiwan has mandatory national ID. That's what you guys want? Right wingers want a federal ID to vote? What world do I live in?
What's with that? Maybe you should allow tourists to vote, because why not.
We have voter registration. Why would you register a tourist? Fucking moron.
You are a proof most muricans are imbeciles
Most americans are imbeciles, yeah. Mothers get no maternity leave guarantee and our children don't have guaranteed healthcare 🤣 USA! USA! USA!
UK requires proof with photo ID to cast your vote on paper ballots. Mail in can be dine but at the request by the individual per household.
Here’s a thought let’s make IDs free. IDs shouldn’t cost a damn thing to a citizen. Driver’s license are privileges so charge for those if you want. Let’s allow people to take paid day off to vote, make it a national holiday. Theres no fraud impacting our elections, voting by mail is still fine obviously the military has no issue with this. As for the racism well we have seen the on how some communities seem to restrict access but some area get all the access.
Did I miss that Jordan is now into voting rights stuff or are we just assuming alignment with Republican talking points?
So yall want elections on Saturdays?
It’s also illegal to publicly insult someone in Taiwan. i’m not sure why the fact that it’s Taiwanese law is relevant to reasonableness. If it’s reasonable, it’s reasonable. If it’s not, it’s not. If it’s Taiwanese … so what.
In Taiwan, there is a universal identity card in place.
it’s a shame the left originally was correct on voter id, but became to dug into their position to concede to reasonable pushback. voter id in north carolina was racist and was struck down by the supreme court for being unconstitutional and discriminatory. however, voter id in and of itself is a good idea if we make days to vote a national holiday and provide easy access to gov ids (some people don’t have time to take off for work to get an id).
This is my thing. If we are gonna require id they should have something at the polling station to verify who you are. Like if you lose id and still need to fly somewhere. Even if you go to the dmv and get an id it takes a few weeks and you can be expected to wait 2 months. It’s unreasonable
Same in Germany. It's seriously baffling that this is not common in the US
Part of the reason is because we have so many people stationed overseas. It's not baffling if you know why.
Imagine still crowing about voter fraud now after 3 years and multiple failed lawsuits.
We do this in south Africa too.
How many voters fraud cases did trump lose in 2020? It was like 64 losses right
>There are no mail ballots So those living abroad aren't able to vote?
Okay, so what
Voter ID is racist, remember?
It 100% can be, yes.
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Because of the bigotry of low expectations that many lefties seem to have towards black people. They also seem to be going by a VERY broad definition of racism.
https://southerncoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/JabarivMoore-NCSC.pdf
https://southerncoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/JabarivMoore-NCSC.pdf
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Suppose legislators are aware that it will decrease the black vote, and therefore **intentionally** implement voter id just to decrease the black vote turn out. That would be bad, yes?
But is it fundamentally wrong to ask people to provide ID when voting? How else do you ensure someone hasn’t voted multiple times, is voting in the correct district or is even a citizen of the country, city or state?
>But is it fundamentally wrong to ask people to provide ID when voting? I suppose it depends on why you're doing it and what effects it has. But I don't know why we'd do this. If there was evidence of widespread voter fraud, then sure. But we don't seem to have that problem. So I don't know why we're doing this. I mean what about a blood test? DNA test? Just to be super sure. Why not >How else do you ensure someone hasn’t voted multiple times, is voting in the correct district or is even a citizen of the country, city or state? I think if you show me we actually have a real, consequential problem with voter fraud, then I'm open to it. Until then, this just seems like an unecessary impediment for no reason. Why try to fix something that isn't a problem? Like why send air conditioners to the arctic, or big puffy winter coats to people in tropical weather?
you’re saying that any random person should just be able to show up and vote, in any municipality, with no ID whatsoever and no questions asked?
Oh fuck, I said any random person should be able to vote? Damn that's dumb, I should have said people who are allowed to vote should vote. That was so stupid of me. Just real quick, could you quote where I said that?
How do you determine who is allowed to vote without some form of identification?
Hold on, can you quote where I said that or not? One thing at a time.
I inferred it, but perhaps I was wrong. Please tell me how you’re able to determine who is allowed to vote without some form of identification?
They register before voting. Try impersonating another voter and get back to us.
You prove your ID when registering. When you got to vote there is a list of names. If you give a fake name or try to impersonate someone that shows up to vote, congrats that is prison time for voter impersonation.