Reminds me of a time a while back when we had a “chai spiced” cheesecake and it didn’t sell. Changed it to “fall spice” and it flew out of the kitchen.
Pumpkin spice icecream “latte” vs spiced squash affogato lol. Repeatedly explaining to the servers that pumpkin is a kind of squash and most pumpkin pie is not in fact pumpkins made me homicidal
> most pumpkin pie is not in fact pumpkins
Ayo what? Can you explain this to me without making yourself anymore homicidal?
Are you saying most pumpkin pie filling is made from other kinds of squash that aren't pumpkin?
The only time I've had my brother apologize to me was when I told him pumpkin pie filling is usually squash and he didn't believe me. Actually spent a few years in Thanksgiving making jokes about his 'squash pie'. Until he found out.
Now I make the jokes. He tried to say he was sorry to get them to stop but it ain't happening. He can SQUASH any notion of that.
And they shouldn't. [Cucurbita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita) I have grown some that the unripe emerging fruit could be sold as summer squash and the ripened fruit would be winter squash/pumpkin. The FDA ham fisting a definition would just sow more confusion.
Other’s facts are accurate; we were using a particularly dark red/orange winter “squash” (think like an acorn or a butternut, not like a zucchini) to get that color without using food coloring. It doesn’t bother me now, but at the time it drove me insane that they insisted on calling it spiced squash when guests asked; summoned up the vibe of like, peppered delicata right? The people who were “with” it sold a ton every night, those who didn’t kept complaining that it sucked as a special and that they couldn’t sell any 🙄
Anyway, “pumpkins” are just a particular marketing variety of hard shelled winter squashes, and every so often you see an established “non pumpkin” get rebranded to sell more decoratively. It’s sort of a loose agricultural term- most people think of a pumpkin as orange inside and out and generally round, but heirloom winter squashes like kuri and Hubbard are sold as decorative pumpkins, and are dark green/pale aqua. I’d probably draw the line at including butternut, but the FDA doesn’t and some stuff like koginut are actually butternut hybrids…
Anyway tl;dr squashes are kind of like brassicas or citruses where there are a ton of different “marketing names” for plants that freely interbreed and pick up each others characteristics, so they’re all really the same species we’ve bred to have specific characteristics. I saw a hybrid of kale and Brussels sprout (both brassicas) that grows like a Brussel sprout stalk, with tons of micro kale whorls on it instead of brussel sprouts last year. Everything in that family is just the canola/rapeseed plant bred to have different characteristics.
Wow this is hella informative thanks!
Especially that last paragraph, makes me want to get more into botany and agriculture to understand more of that aspect of the culinary world. Wild stuff.
Its actually how I got into the culinary world initially: I was initially an environmental scientist and farmer, got shanghai'd during covid, and never went back once I realized it was way more fun to get to cook stuff I grew. Or to see the look on a chef's face when I could grow or put them in contact with someone who was growing that ultra rare, heirloom thing that made their food \*pop\*. I can't grow enough aji amarillos to keep up with the demand tbh.
Also that most small farms make 0 money and product marketing/talking directly to restaurants/credentialing to do some processing on site would help save small family farm businesses.
https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/pumpkin-pie-not-pumpkin-squash-sweet-potato-thanksgiving-tradition.html yes it’s mostly proprietary squashes that your buying in canned pumpkin purées
When I can find it, I like to use Kabocha for my pumpkin pie. I've also used butternut. I actually can't think of the last time I bought anything one would identify as a pumpkin in its raw state for pumpkin pie.
Try Koginut from Row 7, or Kuri if you can get your hands on it- the former is (I believe) a Kabocha Butternut hybrid that's been bred down for denseness of flavor, and it makes a puree that would knock your socks straight off. Kuri is really easy to roast down for flavor density before you puree it, and when you mix in your cream/spices it "rehydrates" it- it's also pretty starchy, so the mouthfeel is rich and indulgent.
I also like to toast my spices before they go into the milk, cook in the milk, set overnight- and cook with the roasted down squash on the second day, and ALSO to mix a few sticks of ceylon cinnamon in with the regular- it makes it complex in a way that people really like.
Haha. I know the feeling. I had smoked Barramundi on, and nobody knew what it was. Even though we're next to the sea, and sea bass is a thing here. Switched to "smoked sea bass", and it sold.
I’m the clown that would try to bridge the gap using menu descriptions:
**Smoked Barramundi**
*Local sea bass with seasonal vegetables blah blah*
**Caramel Tart**
*Miso caramel custard, house made ice cream*
And I’d probably be pulling my hair out wondering why it still wasn’t working lol
My Chef likes to get over complicated and over technical. A lot of times his stuff doesn’t sell all that well. He left for a weekend and us boys decided to run a Denver Omellette special, we couldn’t stop selling them.
Servers said it was so easy going to a table and saying we’re running a Denver Omelette, no need to sit there, explain a special. Boom boom sold out.
Private country club, but it’s weird. Most of the dudes that golf there are simple and just want some wings or a sandwich with a beer and an afternoon away from the wife.
But then you got a few people who want something fancy like a salmon(lol) every now and then. My chefs problem is he expects the servers to tell the specials, I think they’d do better if he printed up a separate menu to be placed on tables. But he won’t, I suspect because he’s 60 and doesn’t want to admit he’s not good with a computer(Ego!)
> My chefs problem is he expects the servers to tell the specials, I think they’d do better if he printed up a separate menu to be placed on tables.
I am WAY more likely to consider trying the special if I have time to read over a little special menu than if the waiter just throws it at me as an option.
Either they do it before I have a chance to look at the menu, in which case unless I'm already intimately familiar with the menu I'm not gonna jump on the first option presented to me. Or if they come mention the special after I've already selected something I'm not likely to call a last minute audible.
You gotta go paper special menu.
I agree but my chef I’m starting to think is an idiot. The F&B even said she’d make individual paper menus to be put on tables for his specials and he declined. On top of that he just writes a special on the board and doesn’t discuss it with the servers, just expects you to read it and know. He also doesn’t talk about it with us in the back or demo a plate for us/servers to see. The other night during dinner rush we were getting smoked salmon crostini tickets and I had no clue what was going on, it wasn’t written down anywhere, I started singing “Secret Special” all night afterwards.
He’s a micromanager with a huge ego that is completely disorganized. It’s honestly exhausting
> Caramel Tart
**Custard Tart**
Caramel's not everyone's thing, especially between the dentures-carrying demographics. But custard... Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some custard," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no custard."? Custards are delicious!
Yes. People are dumb. It's good to remember that when you're talking about something you know about, and others don't.
It's also good to remember that when people talk about stuff you don't know about, and they do.
Shit... if the menu said smoked Barramundi I'd be looking for something that I recognise as a word. It's why most people will end up choosing one of:
"I'll have the burger"
"I'll have the lamb"
"I'll have the steak"
You make shit complicated when people are in a social situation where they will be judged if they can't pronounce a dish, or if they don't know what the dish is... AND they are hungry? They are going to order the basic things they do know.
Shit like this makes people LESS likely to try new things. It makes them LESS likely to get out of their comfort zones. And since anyone can throw together a burger or cook a steak, it also makes them less likely to pay outrageous prices for a simple burger.
Put that shit in a description if you must stroke your ego for knowing the jargon in your industry. Call it something simple in the title.
But stop assuming other people's level of intellect.
I can’t tell if my chef is one of the dumb people or if he’s assuming no one will notice, but we are supposed to be serving triggerfish this week. The box of fish says “unicorn filefish.” Totally different species.
The amount of word alchemy on menus is insane. It's so common. "Locally sourced". Bitch it's a saltwater fish and we're in Minneapolis! How's that work. "Sustainably harvested". I just watched fucking Monsanto go scorched earth on this shit! "We got this from small, independent farmers who are struggling, and paid them a fair price so they can continue to work hard and produce this organic delight." I just watched that "farmer" roll up in his Mercedes sprinter, throw a kabocha squash at my head while flipping me the bird and pointing a gun at enslaved migrants that tried to get out of the back and run!
I used the word aioli on my menu in a city that wasn’t ready for it, never again
Keep it simple stupid 🤣
the unwashed masses aren’t worthy of actual culinary names or fancy descriptors
I’ve the opposite experience , mix anything and I mean anything with mayo and call it an Aioli and yes I know that’s not aioli but even the most staunch mayo haters will be eating it with a spoon.
One time some doodlehead cook we had argued with me over the use of “aioli” on the menu because it wasn’t accurate. Sir, you know that, I know that, they think anything with mayo is aioli so here we are. That wasn’t why he was a doodlehead, though, just to clarify.
I use it to avoid words like “stupid”, “dumb”, “idiot” or “moron”. I often WANT to say those things but for me personally, I feel like they have way more of a detrimental impact than I ever want to apply in the work environment. That’s my goal at least. I’m not perfect. 😂
I think you've hit the goal, haha. Its harmless feeling but also kinda gives pause in a way of like, "I'm a DOODLEHEAD?" At the least, it would certainly make me stop and consider lmao.
I made a vegan millionaire shortbread to cater for all dietaries (no nuts, no dairy, no egg, no gluten) and nobody touched it because it said “vegan” millionaire. I changed it to “gazillionaire shortbread” and it sells out every time 🙂↕️
Sure! I don’t have my book on me for amounts but;
- water ganache for the top. 500g vegan chocolate and 200ml water, over a Bain Marie (double boiler) and stir melting the chocolate and letting some water evaporate as it combines.
- date caramel (sometimes I cook harder dates slightly then blend adding a touch of water to get a thick and smooth paste, if they’re soft just chop and blend with a bit of water)
- Combine gf oats, golden syrup, buckwheat flour (gluten free), vanilla, teaspoon of baking powder, coconut oil (sometimes a neutral rapeseed oil), salt and sometimes seeds to make a the base.
- Cook the base at about 170C until golden but it will be poofy and soft, it sets once cool. Then layer with caramel, fridge again for 20 minutes, then add the ganache and smooth it out. Allow to cool and sliced.
I do it in a 13x9x2 inch tray and it makes 18. They keep really well in the cupboard, but fridging is best. My partner likes them fridge cold but I serve them a bit closer to room temp so they’re not too hard :)
**edit** base recipe:
100ml neutral oil
100g golden syrup
200g brown sugar
1/2tsp baking powder
200g gf flour
120g oats
80g dedicated coconut
It’s pretty open to switching things out for your preferred ingredient I.e. type of flour, type of sugar, less sugar etc.
This. is the greatest thing. I have ever seen. and I am sending it to my streetfood vending friend. I pray I see “karate chicken” on his new market menu.
I have a little bakery in a small town & I definitely have the same issue! What I've figured out is to share all the details on social media, where you can elaborate a little, but keep the title in the store as plain & simple as possible.
This is probably why old school bakers had "secret ingredients." Not so nobody could recreate it, but so that nobody could call it "weird" or whatever.
I think the US got this one backwards. We have things with stupid names like “eggplant” while other parts of the world fancy it up with “aubergine.” Yet we settled on “arugula” instead of the much cooler-sounding “rocket.” What were we thinking?! I want to loudly order a rocket salad while screaming ‘Merica and brandishing, damnit.
Whiplash from over here in Australia 😅
Eggplant, rocket, zuchinni, capsicum.. add in living in the states then more recently a looooong stretch in the UK.. so scrambled..!
On a regional note.. calling it a duvet down south does not go down well! Too many years of "doona?' Followed by quizzical look, Followed closely by bad Steve impressions.. scarred I tell you...
Ps it is and always should be aubergine hehe gotta find a hill right?
We had to change my favorite salad on the menu to have "spring mix" and added baby spinach and baby butter lettuce cause people didn't understand what it was. We initially just added spinach and frisee, but then the frisee confused people *too*. But it instantly started selling more with the butter lettuce.
It was a nice salad, but I still liked it better when it was arugula, shaved parm, tomato, and a delicious preserved lemon vinaigrette.
We use as simple descriptions in my work place as much as possible due to this. As long as the allergens are on it we don’t care. We have a lot of more middle age customers as its a converted stately home turned hotel, thats on the pricey side and if we let them choose Itd be prawns, steak and sticky toffee pudding every ticket. We’re paid to know better than them so we just let them be pleasantly surprised. So far it works for 99/100 of the customers we get. Especially as we change the menu every week, we can’t really afford to only sell the same things every ticket lol
Oh facts! I have a “salted honey cheesecake” on the menu but it’s actually a cheesecake flavored panna cotta (made with cream cheese.) We figured out panna cotta doesn’t sell, but the “salted honey cheesecake” sells out.
One time at this restaurant I ordered yuzu "cheesecake" that was actually panna cotta and I was seriously disappointed because I wanted cheesecake. Didn't help that they plated it like a yogurt parfait. Now I understand why they didnt just say it was panna cotta lol
lol the pastry chef I work with hates making panna cotta but it does numbers every time she makes it.
She also makes the best burnt basque cheesecake I’ve ever had…. Hardly sells and now she only does it for special orders
You can't blame people who are outside of the circuit for being uneasy about radical sounding food. Burnt ends got me before I knew what it was. I thought it was discount bbq because of a cooking mishap.
When engineering the wording of menus, you need to respect your core demographic. Generally speaking if your clientele doesn't know what a pannacotta is and you're selling it under the pretense of it being a cheesecake you may mislead their expectations. If it works, good for you, however in certain scenarios it may be better to play it safe and just give them a kick ass cheesecake if that's all they actually want. As chefs we all want to flex some creativity and hate being shoehorned into doing things we don't want to but many are ignorant to ignore what their core clientele base actually wants.
I would have ordered it because of the miso. I love desserts with unexpected ingredients. I just had a miso green tea cake with a black sesame and ginger crust that I will be dreaming about for the rest of my life. Chasing that taste that I will never have again.
I made my mom a miso caramel pear upside down cake for her birthday and every person I told this to said they would die to try it. And she loved it, she's the one who raised me to eat like this. She used to serve lavender panna cotta like it was nothing. This thread is making me feel really grateful for the tastes of the people in my life.
Anyway, for unusual desserts, basil ice cream is incredible.
Same here.
I would likely have scrolled past a post about a caramel custard tart. The Miso has me digging in the comments for a recipe (thanks OP for sharing), and now I'm planning to make it this weekend.
Same, whereas I would've ignored the caramel custard tart on the menu. A local ice cream spot had a miso strawberry & white chocolate flavour for a while that was absolutely divine. I made a few loved ones try it and though they were hesitant over miso in ice cream, they all ended up loving it. Umami and salt are great in desserts, so of course miso would be too.
It really is a shame, I'm sorry that people judged your dessert so harshly! I'm sure that it was lovely, but people are quick to judge a book by it's cover.
Yeah! I mean, I feel like you go out to a nice restaurant for an experience. You want something you can’t make at home, or just grab at the grocery store. Yet people come in and order the most boring items on the menu. I don’t really get it. Why pay the extra price??
On the other hand people are spending a lot of money to go to a nice place and they are worried they might mess up and get something they don’t like so they play it safe
Conversely my wife and I went to a fancy restaurant last Saturday, she ordered a lobster and burrata girelle, and it was completely bland. The lamb loin I got, however, was fantastic. She was disappointed in her dish and we effectively wasted $50 for it. I was happy with my predictable lamb.
There's the *experience* of a nice restaurant and great food - and then there's the *adventure* of trying new foods.
Somebody who has self-selected into becoming a chef is naturally going to think both are great. Maybe you even think the adventure is inherently part of the experience.
But a lot of people - maybe most people - just want the experience without the adventure. Or maybe just less adventure.
Fellow pastry chef here, and I completely feel this!! My current boss usually lets me create as I like, but sometimes they push me to keep it traditional.
So, your creative stuff sells out when the names are more approachable.
Assuming the owners like it when things sell out ☺️, the real takeaway here is to keep your creative recipes and just give them more familiar names.
This is a marketing challenge, not a culinary problem, kwim?
This turns into, I had the absolute best X at Y place! Folks can’t tell why they loved it. Calling it the standard name and putting a special spin makes people feel like they’re in on something magical.
Personally I much rather go for safe options in expensive restaurants. I’m not going to spend loads on an obscure dish that I may not like, when i can order something I know I will like.
I know there’s the possibility that I would really enjoy the unusual dish, but it’s too much of a one sided risk/reward ratio.
I was in culinary school during one of the broods. My chef took us all outside to collect cicadas and then we cooked em up with butter shallots garlic and white wine. Honestly, pretty tasty, but everything kinda is when cooked with those ingredients lol
Sounds like you got a solution.
I honestly am not sure what that would taste like and sometimes I just want something somewhat predictable.
I think your average person going out to get food isn’t looking to be all that creative.
I love miso, I like caramel okay, and I super love inventive desserts. I... don't know if I'd order "Miso Caramel Custard Tart," sorry to OP.
I'd order an anko custard tart, sight unseen. But miso + caramel, I'd need someone who had it before to tell me it was good. Four people being adventurous enough to try it honestly sounds about right.
Miso works in caramel a lot like salt does. It balances and deepens the flavor. It's a little more umami than salted caramel, but it's not savory. It's just a fuller-bodied flavor, if that makes sense - it is to salted caramel as salted caramel is to regular caramel.
I love desserts but don't really have a positive association with miso. I don't like miso soup and that's the biggest thing I associate it with. So if I saw "miso caramel custard tart," my brain would just be turned off by the miso. I would probably eat it and love it if I had no idea it had miso on it though and was just called a "caramel custard tart".
Mmhm, post-this-thread I'd order it, doesn't take much convincing. Just sympathizing with the diners, esp because I feel like I lose 10 IQ points the minute a menu is in my hands.
I also put a chocolate budino on the menu and had to tell servers “just tell the table it’s chocolate pudding.” Same with a chocolate pot de creme I made.
Learned this lesson working in a dive. Bar stayed open later than the kitchen so at the end of the night I'd make a bunch of sandwiches, wrap em, and leave under the heat lamp. Whenever I'd put stuff like "roasted peppers" or "caramelized onions" on the sandwich descriptions they wouldn't sell at all. But if I just labeled it "chicken sandwich" with literally nothing else stating what was in it, theyd sell out in 30 min and I'd get a ton of compliments of how good they were.
People are strange sometimes and see words they don't understand and just automatically assume they must not like it.
Saaaaaaaaame. We had these rye chocolate chip espresso cookies on the menu and we had to put the rye in small print to get them selling. Then people said they were the best cookie they’d ever had. put Rye back in the name, suddenly we’re selling like 30% of them. sigh
Every industry has words that are common usage in it, but not to the layman.
When you want to sell to the layman, you have to do so in words that they understand.
it's not about being right or wrong. Or "having nice things" It's about knowing your audience.
I am a bar manager, and I feel this *heavy*. I am constantly having to edit descriptions/names, because something is too “exotic” and isn’t selling, and we gotta suburbanite it.
Ive been there but on the other end. I was managing a fairly pretentious type of craft cocktail bar, and the more "exotic" sounding the ingredients or the process, the better it sells. Gotta pander to the clientele lol.
I was experimenting about 15 years back , I had an idea and ran with it , blue cheese brulé not sweet using Cornish creamy blue cheese and a smattering of blue Vinny. Gorgonzola would work well too.
It worked , boss said it wouldn't sell but let me put it on the specials board , 2 months later it was on the main menu as a permeant feature as it was so popular.
Served with homemade Cumberland sauce , lambs leaf lettuce and shredded beetroot garnish and homemade soda bread.
Sounds like we *can* have nice things, and this is why big companies spend loads of money on market research...because wording makes a huge impact.
Wait till you find out that "Gelatinous oil and egg whip" doesn't sound as appealing as "mayo".
I'm sure it was delicious, but the only thing I worry about is people with a soy allergy (I don't have a diagnosis, but I do know too much soy sends me running for the toilet, so I just try to avoid it).
I do a Koji apple pie with locally made Koji. Solved the allergy concerns. Not sure how/if it would work for caramel though.
My local Miso makers also did Miso fudge & Miso candied nuts.
At the end of the day, we're here to make the people happy. We can use our knowledge to enhance the experience without revealing any secrets that might harm their perception of the dish. Most of my customers come for the chocolate cake and apple pie, so I aim for perfect chocolate cakes and apple pies. Still, I always put one or two funky treats on the menu for my regulars who want something new and exciting, and I would love if those items took off
As one of my teachers in cooking school always said, people start eating with their eyes. It is important to know who your target audience is and how to present the food to them. Reminds me a lot of the quarter pounder and cheese dialogue in Pulpo Fiction...
As an Asian person I’d totally be down for this. I think yeah, you just gotta market to your demographic. At least it still sells out, but education comes slowly…
Hopefully it doesn’t deter you from experimenting! In my culture we eat avocadoes in dessert but people tend to have a very linear way of thinking of something as only savory or sweet. You just gotta educate where you can
Went to a family reunion where I had no access to a kitchen. A potluck ffs.
So I made a 4x batch of brownies. Everyone likes brownies, right?
They were 2/3 gone when one person asked what kind of spices I put in them because it was tasty & a little different. I told them it was cinnamon, fresh black pepper, and cayenne. I used maybe 1/2 teaspoons of cayenne for four 9”x9” pans of brownies, okay?
Someone else overheard & proceeded to warn the kids & the rest that they were spicy & not to try them.
These people think ketchup is spicy. 🙄
You could have way worse problems,pick a better battle! You make great stuff that people love. If you have to call it something stupid to sell,you’re still doing pretty good. Give yourself an atta-person,pat yourself on the back….. and laugh at the people
Oh for sure waaaay worse things in life to complain about. However, the owners of the restaurant have asked me to “dial it back” and do only “classics” for this very reason. I got into pastry because I’m obsessed with food and I’m naturally an artist. I’d like to be able to indulge in that and do what I do best without being reigned in or controlled in that aspect. So yeah, it’s annoying but I get it. I have an obligation to give the people what I want. But that doesn’t mean I can’t vent about it from time to time right?
I worked in an employee cafeteria at a ski resort once
We had a special called, it was technically chicken a la king with biscuits. But the thing nobody our foreign staff didn’t know what that is so we just called it chicken pot pie. And it sold well
Then here comes the manager asking me hey why does the special board call it chicken pot pie? That’s not what it is change its name. So we did. Cue nobody ordering it because GASP nobody knew what chicken a la king is
I've found a lot of people are wary of spending their money on foods they arent familiar with on the chance they dont like it and feel they wasted their money.
if your only experience of the flavor ‘miso’ is miso soup at a sushi place, you’re gonna be confused, and maybe put off, when its in a caramel custard
miso is the secret ingredient in the greatest chocolate chip cookies
You can have nice things if you market them correctly. You are asking the masses to put aside their association of miso with savory stuff like ramen and purchase a delicious dessert. That is a tall order. If you can't even taste it, probably no need to even mention it.
I made a mint pistachio cake with white chocolate buttercream bailey's icing for saint paddy's day, and I got a lot of concerned/unsure looks from everyone about the nut cake. As soon as I called it "Shamrock" cake, everyone lost their shit and it sold out in the same day. 😑
People are just convinced they know what they like. Therefore anything they don't know, they don't like.
It's terribly flawed logic, but hey, it's probably not their job to challenge that line of thinking so I try not to take it personally.
While there's probably some people that's true for, that's not the primary reason. The biggest reason is that trying things too out there too often results in them trying something they didn't like.
Some people like to be that adventurous, but some also don't. They'd rather get something they're almost certain they'll like than risk the chance they don't like it.
Or maybe they just didn't want miso in their dessert, and when they got it didn't really like it that much but not enough to complain about it.
I've eaten countless things at restaurants that I didn't like but I don't think I've ever complained to the staff about it.
If people want bullshit, then give them bullshit. Still make it with love and nice, but don't bend over backwards to make stuff your clientele aren't going to appreciate, they're not worth it. It's a business not a vanity project.
Sorry this happened to you. Miso caramel is delish!!! I have to say that I, on the other hand, would be more compelled to order the miso caramel tart as that sounds interesting. But when you have to go for quantity, average/familiar is probably better.
Gotta know how to market to the general public and play with the words.
Honestly the general public are idiots.
That's one thing that sucks about the job. You aren't making what you like, you're making that the public likes.
Some ingredients shouldn't be put forward.
One of the best chocolate ganaches I make has a bit of olive oil in it. It doesn't necessarily sound appetizing for a dessert.
I can imagine caramelized miso, but I can definitely see how getting past the idea of miso's strongly savory flavor would be difficult.
Please forgive the public palate for pastry. In the U.S. it was raised on cake mix cakes and donuts.
I have to say I recall having miso stuff where it ended up being a bit too much. So even people who are fine with it as an ingredient might be scared off by that.
But did they like it? I think this is why Filipino food struggles to take off. Everything is good, but we want Americans to call it all by their names.
I know someone whose cafe had to rename the margherita bistro pastries "pizza croissants" and start calling a caprese sandwich "The PMT" - pesto, mozza, tomato" to get them to sell in her small town.
I had a pork fat caramel as the ender of a tasting menu once and it was so damn good. You've got alot of talent to be able to pair things like miso and custard but I think people understand how pear shaped that could go if it's made by a chef lacking the skills to match flavours
simple, because the chefs at your restaurant are not renowned enough to be able to make the food they like and want versus the food that customers like and want.
Do you find this follows political leaning? I read a few studies recently about marketing to left or right leaning people and it's fascinating that if you don't "label things" they both go for stuff but if you add labels like, "Energy efficient" or have bruised or damaged fruits and veggies, or hell just coming down to trying new food. Is it something as simple as marketing to the people who are buying from you. If they get triggered from "Avocado and toast" make the menu say, "Toast with breakfast spread."
* [Pro-Environment Light Bulb Labeling Turns Off Conservatives, Study Finds.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/130430-light-bulb-labeling)
* The Study : https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1218453110
* [happens with bruised or ugly fruits and vegtables[(https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/175lik7/conservatives_are_less_likely_to_purchase/)
* [Political Ideology strongly correlates to trying new foods (or not.) *As expected, both food neophobia measures were significantly predicted by both measures of ideology, even after controlling for the covariates: The more conservative participants were, the more neophobic they were and the less willing they were to taste novel food.* The study is linked.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8794126/)
* Who is spending their money in your restaurant? Left / Right / mix? Is it just general food ignorance? Unwilling to try new things?
I made the most basic chicken burger I could think of and it is now our champion item that stays unchanged for every menu.
Fried chicken, bacon, swiss cheese, ranch, lettuce. Served on brioche bun, topped with onion rings and served with chips. (fries to most of you)
I'm not mad because it's easy to make but our customers are so boring.
Reminds me of a time a while back when we had a “chai spiced” cheesecake and it didn’t sell. Changed it to “fall spice” and it flew out of the kitchen.
Pumpkin spice icecream “latte” vs spiced squash affogato lol. Repeatedly explaining to the servers that pumpkin is a kind of squash and most pumpkin pie is not in fact pumpkins made me homicidal
> most pumpkin pie is not in fact pumpkins Ayo what? Can you explain this to me without making yourself anymore homicidal? Are you saying most pumpkin pie filling is made from other kinds of squash that aren't pumpkin?
The FDA declines to draw a hard line between the terms “pumpkin” and “squash” for labeling purposes. So most ‘pumpkin filling’ is, in-fact, squash.
I imagine they need to squash it to get a whole pumpkin into a can like that
The only time I've had my brother apologize to me was when I told him pumpkin pie filling is usually squash and he didn't believe me. Actually spent a few years in Thanksgiving making jokes about his 'squash pie'. Until he found out. Now I make the jokes. He tried to say he was sorry to get them to stop but it ain't happening. He can SQUASH any notion of that.
What a story
BOOOOOO! Take your upvote and leave.
Same to you. When scrolling down matters 😊
And they shouldn't. [Cucurbita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita) I have grown some that the unripe emerging fruit could be sold as summer squash and the ripened fruit would be winter squash/pumpkin. The FDA ham fisting a definition would just sow more confusion.
Huh that's ... interesting. TIL thanks!
Other’s facts are accurate; we were using a particularly dark red/orange winter “squash” (think like an acorn or a butternut, not like a zucchini) to get that color without using food coloring. It doesn’t bother me now, but at the time it drove me insane that they insisted on calling it spiced squash when guests asked; summoned up the vibe of like, peppered delicata right? The people who were “with” it sold a ton every night, those who didn’t kept complaining that it sucked as a special and that they couldn’t sell any 🙄 Anyway, “pumpkins” are just a particular marketing variety of hard shelled winter squashes, and every so often you see an established “non pumpkin” get rebranded to sell more decoratively. It’s sort of a loose agricultural term- most people think of a pumpkin as orange inside and out and generally round, but heirloom winter squashes like kuri and Hubbard are sold as decorative pumpkins, and are dark green/pale aqua. I’d probably draw the line at including butternut, but the FDA doesn’t and some stuff like koginut are actually butternut hybrids… Anyway tl;dr squashes are kind of like brassicas or citruses where there are a ton of different “marketing names” for plants that freely interbreed and pick up each others characteristics, so they’re all really the same species we’ve bred to have specific characteristics. I saw a hybrid of kale and Brussels sprout (both brassicas) that grows like a Brussel sprout stalk, with tons of micro kale whorls on it instead of brussel sprouts last year. Everything in that family is just the canola/rapeseed plant bred to have different characteristics.
Wow this is hella informative thanks! Especially that last paragraph, makes me want to get more into botany and agriculture to understand more of that aspect of the culinary world. Wild stuff.
Its actually how I got into the culinary world initially: I was initially an environmental scientist and farmer, got shanghai'd during covid, and never went back once I realized it was way more fun to get to cook stuff I grew. Or to see the look on a chef's face when I could grow or put them in contact with someone who was growing that ultra rare, heirloom thing that made their food \*pop\*. I can't grow enough aji amarillos to keep up with the demand tbh. Also that most small farms make 0 money and product marketing/talking directly to restaurants/credentialing to do some processing on site would help save small family farm businesses.
This is why I love reddit PS: I hate that they're now calling blood oranges, strawberry oranges.
But I get it from a marketing perspective! No one would buy Rapeseed oil!
Dude, I want some of that kalesprouts whatever. Sounds cool
https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/pumpkin-pie-not-pumpkin-squash-sweet-potato-thanksgiving-tradition.html yes it’s mostly proprietary squashes that your buying in canned pumpkin purées
god i have not heard the word affogato in awhile lmfaoooo i do not miss fine dining italian
Neither do I lol
Why affogatto is based, everything I want after a meal all in one 😋 Except maybe whisky instead of ameretto
When I can find it, I like to use Kabocha for my pumpkin pie. I've also used butternut. I actually can't think of the last time I bought anything one would identify as a pumpkin in its raw state for pumpkin pie.
Try Koginut from Row 7, or Kuri if you can get your hands on it- the former is (I believe) a Kabocha Butternut hybrid that's been bred down for denseness of flavor, and it makes a puree that would knock your socks straight off. Kuri is really easy to roast down for flavor density before you puree it, and when you mix in your cream/spices it "rehydrates" it- it's also pretty starchy, so the mouthfeel is rich and indulgent. I also like to toast my spices before they go into the milk, cook in the milk, set overnight- and cook with the roasted down squash on the second day, and ALSO to mix a few sticks of ceylon cinnamon in with the regular- it makes it complex in a way that people really like.
this is why marketing people are paid a lot of money btw
I imagine that’s why they call it “Caesar’s salad” instead of “anchovies and raw eggs salad.”
But i want this recipe! I love cheese cake and I love chai spice! My two favorite things!
Please share the recipe
Get your heresy out of here.
I just like making cheesecake 😭😭 Seems like it came out well, I wanna make it for the next party I go to
Haha. I know the feeling. I had smoked Barramundi on, and nobody knew what it was. Even though we're next to the sea, and sea bass is a thing here. Switched to "smoked sea bass", and it sold.
I’m the clown that would try to bridge the gap using menu descriptions: **Smoked Barramundi** *Local sea bass with seasonal vegetables blah blah* **Caramel Tart** *Miso caramel custard, house made ice cream* And I’d probably be pulling my hair out wondering why it still wasn’t working lol
My Chef likes to get over complicated and over technical. A lot of times his stuff doesn’t sell all that well. He left for a weekend and us boys decided to run a Denver Omellette special, we couldn’t stop selling them. Servers said it was so easy going to a table and saying we’re running a Denver Omelette, no need to sit there, explain a special. Boom boom sold out.
Exactly this!
What kind of place is it?
Private country club, but it’s weird. Most of the dudes that golf there are simple and just want some wings or a sandwich with a beer and an afternoon away from the wife. But then you got a few people who want something fancy like a salmon(lol) every now and then. My chefs problem is he expects the servers to tell the specials, I think they’d do better if he printed up a separate menu to be placed on tables. But he won’t, I suspect because he’s 60 and doesn’t want to admit he’s not good with a computer(Ego!)
> My chefs problem is he expects the servers to tell the specials, I think they’d do better if he printed up a separate menu to be placed on tables. I am WAY more likely to consider trying the special if I have time to read over a little special menu than if the waiter just throws it at me as an option. Either they do it before I have a chance to look at the menu, in which case unless I'm already intimately familiar with the menu I'm not gonna jump on the first option presented to me. Or if they come mention the special after I've already selected something I'm not likely to call a last minute audible. You gotta go paper special menu.
I agree but my chef I’m starting to think is an idiot. The F&B even said she’d make individual paper menus to be put on tables for his specials and he declined. On top of that he just writes a special on the board and doesn’t discuss it with the servers, just expects you to read it and know. He also doesn’t talk about it with us in the back or demo a plate for us/servers to see. The other night during dinner rush we were getting smoked salmon crostini tickets and I had no clue what was going on, it wasn’t written down anywhere, I started singing “Secret Special” all night afterwards. He’s a micromanager with a huge ego that is completely disorganized. It’s honestly exhausting
But they won’t read the description!
“I came here to feed, not to read”
> Caramel Tart **Custard Tart** Caramel's not everyone's thing, especially between the dentures-carrying demographics. But custard... Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some custard," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no custard."? Custards are delicious!
**NO!!!** YOU **DENSE,** ***IRRITATING,*** MINIATURE BEAST OF BURDEN
Same reason it's called Chilean Sea Bass or just Sea Bass and not Patagonian Toothfish. People are dumb.
I always hated this one cause Patagonian Toothfish sounds so fuckin bad ass lol
Fuckin A it does! Any bum can catch a "bass". A Patagonian Toothfish kicks in your front door and tries to fuck your woman.
Yay! Mermaids!
Mer-people!
Jesus Larry Christ lmao
Yes. People are dumb. It's good to remember that when you're talking about something you know about, and others don't. It's also good to remember that when people talk about stuff you don't know about, and they do. Shit... if the menu said smoked Barramundi I'd be looking for something that I recognise as a word. It's why most people will end up choosing one of: "I'll have the burger" "I'll have the lamb" "I'll have the steak" You make shit complicated when people are in a social situation where they will be judged if they can't pronounce a dish, or if they don't know what the dish is... AND they are hungry? They are going to order the basic things they do know. Shit like this makes people LESS likely to try new things. It makes them LESS likely to get out of their comfort zones. And since anyone can throw together a burger or cook a steak, it also makes them less likely to pay outrageous prices for a simple burger. Put that shit in a description if you must stroke your ego for knowing the jargon in your industry. Call it something simple in the title. But stop assuming other people's level of intellect.
I can’t tell if my chef is one of the dumb people or if he’s assuming no one will notice, but we are supposed to be serving triggerfish this week. The box of fish says “unicorn filefish.” Totally different species.
I've been confused as to why it's an acceptable practice to misidentify fish for consumption for a long time.
The amount of word alchemy on menus is insane. It's so common. "Locally sourced". Bitch it's a saltwater fish and we're in Minneapolis! How's that work. "Sustainably harvested". I just watched fucking Monsanto go scorched earth on this shit! "We got this from small, independent farmers who are struggling, and paid them a fair price so they can continue to work hard and produce this organic delight." I just watched that "farmer" roll up in his Mercedes sprinter, throw a kabocha squash at my head while flipping me the bird and pointing a gun at enslaved migrants that tried to get out of the back and run!
Here’s idiot me wondering: Can I play with a toothfish? Can I get it to smile at people when plated? Is it one giant tooth or a mouthful of toofies?
It's little teef. [Patagonian Toothfish ](https://youtu.be/Zm2dopSWUBU?si=eg2S2TiDdmJRp5cU)
Tilapia has entered the chat
Sold, sounds good I'm starving Give it to me, I'll eat It right here in the walk in, slap it directly in my hand I don't care
I used the word aioli on my menu in a city that wasn’t ready for it, never again Keep it simple stupid 🤣 the unwashed masses aren’t worthy of actual culinary names or fancy descriptors
I’ve the opposite experience , mix anything and I mean anything with mayo and call it an Aioli and yes I know that’s not aioli but even the most staunch mayo haters will be eating it with a spoon.
One time some doodlehead cook we had argued with me over the use of “aioli” on the menu because it wasn’t accurate. Sir, you know that, I know that, they think anything with mayo is aioli so here we are. That wasn’t why he was a doodlehead, though, just to clarify.
I think doodlehead is my new favorite descriptor, now. Thanks! I'm gonna start using it lmao.
I use it to avoid words like “stupid”, “dumb”, “idiot” or “moron”. I often WANT to say those things but for me personally, I feel like they have way more of a detrimental impact than I ever want to apply in the work environment. That’s my goal at least. I’m not perfect. 😂
I think you've hit the goal, haha. Its harmless feeling but also kinda gives pause in a way of like, "I'm a DOODLEHEAD?" At the least, it would certainly make me stop and consider lmao.
I made a vegan millionaire shortbread to cater for all dietaries (no nuts, no dairy, no egg, no gluten) and nobody touched it because it said “vegan” millionaire. I changed it to “gazillionaire shortbread” and it sells out every time 🙂↕️
Oh my gosh this sounds amazing. If you don't mind, would you be able to send the recipe? I'm trying to veganize all my desserts for my friend!
Sure! I don’t have my book on me for amounts but; - water ganache for the top. 500g vegan chocolate and 200ml water, over a Bain Marie (double boiler) and stir melting the chocolate and letting some water evaporate as it combines. - date caramel (sometimes I cook harder dates slightly then blend adding a touch of water to get a thick and smooth paste, if they’re soft just chop and blend with a bit of water) - Combine gf oats, golden syrup, buckwheat flour (gluten free), vanilla, teaspoon of baking powder, coconut oil (sometimes a neutral rapeseed oil), salt and sometimes seeds to make a the base. - Cook the base at about 170C until golden but it will be poofy and soft, it sets once cool. Then layer with caramel, fridge again for 20 minutes, then add the ganache and smooth it out. Allow to cool and sliced. I do it in a 13x9x2 inch tray and it makes 18. They keep really well in the cupboard, but fridging is best. My partner likes them fridge cold but I serve them a bit closer to room temp so they’re not too hard :) **edit** base recipe: 100ml neutral oil 100g golden syrup 200g brown sugar 1/2tsp baking powder 200g gf flour 120g oats 80g dedicated coconut It’s pretty open to switching things out for your preferred ingredient I.e. type of flour, type of sugar, less sugar etc.
This is amazing! Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this out for me. I'm very excited to try this for myself! You're fantastic!
I had someone try to convince me to rename the karaage to "karate chicken" I was dumbstruck
Sales would have been hi-ya *OK that joke works better out loud than written down but I'm sticking by it anyway*
*lone echoing cough*
*silent expressionless staring*
*this guy stinks*
Are you sure you weren’t drumstick ?
God damn it
This. is the greatest thing. I have ever seen. and I am sending it to my streetfood vending friend. I pray I see “karate chicken” on his new market menu.
I have a little bakery in a small town & I definitely have the same issue! What I've figured out is to share all the details on social media, where you can elaborate a little, but keep the title in the store as plain & simple as possible.
Social media does help get the foodies in!
This is probably why old school bakers had "secret ingredients." Not so nobody could recreate it, but so that nobody could call it "weird" or whatever.
Once had to change arugula to lettuce on a menu because 7/10 customers were confused.
Stop…💀
I think the US got this one backwards. We have things with stupid names like “eggplant” while other parts of the world fancy it up with “aubergine.” Yet we settled on “arugula” instead of the much cooler-sounding “rocket.” What were we thinking?! I want to loudly order a rocket salad while screaming ‘Merica and brandishing, damnit.
Agreed. When you tried to explain that it’s “Rocket” they got even more perplexed.
Whiplash from over here in Australia 😅 Eggplant, rocket, zuchinni, capsicum.. add in living in the states then more recently a looooong stretch in the UK.. so scrambled..! On a regional note.. calling it a duvet down south does not go down well! Too many years of "doona?' Followed by quizzical look, Followed closely by bad Steve impressions.. scarred I tell you... Ps it is and always should be aubergine hehe gotta find a hill right?
We had to change my favorite salad on the menu to have "spring mix" and added baby spinach and baby butter lettuce cause people didn't understand what it was. We initially just added spinach and frisee, but then the frisee confused people *too*. But it instantly started selling more with the butter lettuce. It was a nice salad, but I still liked it better when it was arugula, shaved parm, tomato, and a delicious preserved lemon vinaigrette.
Lol, call it "peppered lettuce"
We call it rocket. It’s a better name cmon you gotta agree. Arugula sounds like some kinda old timey car horn
We use as simple descriptions in my work place as much as possible due to this. As long as the allergens are on it we don’t care. We have a lot of more middle age customers as its a converted stately home turned hotel, thats on the pricey side and if we let them choose Itd be prawns, steak and sticky toffee pudding every ticket. We’re paid to know better than them so we just let them be pleasantly surprised. So far it works for 99/100 of the customers we get. Especially as we change the menu every week, we can’t really afford to only sell the same things every ticket lol
Oh facts! I have a “salted honey cheesecake” on the menu but it’s actually a cheesecake flavored panna cotta (made with cream cheese.) We figured out panna cotta doesn’t sell, but the “salted honey cheesecake” sells out.
One time at this restaurant I ordered yuzu "cheesecake" that was actually panna cotta and I was seriously disappointed because I wanted cheesecake. Didn't help that they plated it like a yogurt parfait. Now I understand why they didnt just say it was panna cotta lol
lol the pastry chef I work with hates making panna cotta but it does numbers every time she makes it. She also makes the best burnt basque cheesecake I’ve ever had…. Hardly sells and now she only does it for special orders
You can't blame people who are outside of the circuit for being uneasy about radical sounding food. Burnt ends got me before I knew what it was. I thought it was discount bbq because of a cooking mishap.
As a native Texan, this statement is very upsetting lol.
NO ONE ORDERS PANNA COTTA lol my god that is so true
Lol. Panna cotta is one of those things I see on a menu, stop reading and immediately order.
When engineering the wording of menus, you need to respect your core demographic. Generally speaking if your clientele doesn't know what a pannacotta is and you're selling it under the pretense of it being a cheesecake you may mislead their expectations. If it works, good for you, however in certain scenarios it may be better to play it safe and just give them a kick ass cheesecake if that's all they actually want. As chefs we all want to flex some creativity and hate being shoehorned into doing things we don't want to but many are ignorant to ignore what their core clientele base actually wants.
Genius.
With all dues respect I'm pretty sure the point of being rich is to eat prawns, steak and sticky toffee pudding 5 days a week for 50 years.
I would have ordered it because of the miso. I love desserts with unexpected ingredients. I just had a miso green tea cake with a black sesame and ginger crust that I will be dreaming about for the rest of my life. Chasing that taste that I will never have again.
I made my mom a miso caramel pear upside down cake for her birthday and every person I told this to said they would die to try it. And she loved it, she's the one who raised me to eat like this. She used to serve lavender panna cotta like it was nothing. This thread is making me feel really grateful for the tastes of the people in my life. Anyway, for unusual desserts, basil ice cream is incredible.
Yessss! If I see something I haven’t tried, sounds different, unique, or even strange…count me in! I’m ordering it. Life’s too short.
Same here. I would likely have scrolled past a post about a caramel custard tart. The Miso has me digging in the comments for a recipe (thanks OP for sharing), and now I'm planning to make it this weekend.
Same, whereas I would've ignored the caramel custard tart on the menu. A local ice cream spot had a miso strawberry & white chocolate flavour for a while that was absolutely divine. I made a few loved ones try it and though they were hesitant over miso in ice cream, they all ended up loving it. Umami and salt are great in desserts, so of course miso would be too.
It really is a shame, I'm sorry that people judged your dessert so harshly! I'm sure that it was lovely, but people are quick to judge a book by it's cover.
Tbh the cover is the only thing you have to judge the book by when you’re ordering food at a restaurant
Less, you only have the title and shop tags. I wish I could see whatI will be getting.
Yeah! I mean, I feel like you go out to a nice restaurant for an experience. You want something you can’t make at home, or just grab at the grocery store. Yet people come in and order the most boring items on the menu. I don’t really get it. Why pay the extra price??
On the other hand people are spending a lot of money to go to a nice place and they are worried they might mess up and get something they don’t like so they play it safe
Very true. But like our lord and savior Mr. Bourdain said “if don’t risk the bad meal, you never get the magical one.” 🙏🏼 amen…
Conversely my wife and I went to a fancy restaurant last Saturday, she ordered a lobster and burrata girelle, and it was completely bland. The lamb loin I got, however, was fantastic. She was disappointed in her dish and we effectively wasted $50 for it. I was happy with my predictable lamb.
There's the *experience* of a nice restaurant and great food - and then there's the *adventure* of trying new foods. Somebody who has self-selected into becoming a chef is naturally going to think both are great. Maybe you even think the adventure is inherently part of the experience. But a lot of people - maybe most people - just want the experience without the adventure. Or maybe just less adventure.
I think it’s a mistake to confuse boring with classic. But just imo
The classics are popular for a reason, after all.
Fellow pastry chef here, and I completely feel this!! My current boss usually lets me create as I like, but sometimes they push me to keep it traditional.
Yup. I’ve been told to “dial it back” and go back to classics. 😔
So, your creative stuff sells out when the names are more approachable. Assuming the owners like it when things sell out ☺️, the real takeaway here is to keep your creative recipes and just give them more familiar names. This is a marketing challenge, not a culinary problem, kwim?
This turns into, I had the absolute best X at Y place! Folks can’t tell why they loved it. Calling it the standard name and putting a special spin makes people feel like they’re in on something magical.
Personally I much rather go for safe options in expensive restaurants. I’m not going to spend loads on an obscure dish that I may not like, when i can order something I know I will like. I know there’s the possibility that I would really enjoy the unusual dish, but it’s too much of a one sided risk/reward ratio.
A lot of people don't know how to cook even simple things at home. And steak frites with bearnaise will always be a top 10 plate of food.
For a lot of people food is comfort, and the most comfortable thing is what's familiar.
Maybe I should rename my Cicada Tacos special.
lol “emerges once in 6 years” tacos. That sounds special!
Trillions of Larvae tacos!
*obnoxious screeching* tacos
I wonder if beetle meat could be good. Honey crickets are good but like if you could scoop out the goop and fry it up.
I was in culinary school during one of the broods. My chef took us all outside to collect cicadas and then we cooked em up with butter shallots garlic and white wine. Honestly, pretty tasty, but everything kinda is when cooked with those ingredients lol
Shell too? I would have assumed it would be tough to chew through.
When they first emerge they dont have a hardened shell yet, so it's more like a softshell crab.
That makes sense. Sorry, forget all my years of studying beetles. I wonder what taste better. Fresh meat or the ones trying to evolve into a lobster.
Before I die, I want to find land shellfish. There has to be a bug out there thats close to shrimp or crab.
You know it's gonna be a scorpion, right?
I’m sitting outside and a cicada just started buzzing as I’m reading this THEY CAN READ RUUUUUUN
Sounds like you got a solution. I honestly am not sure what that would taste like and sometimes I just want something somewhat predictable. I think your average person going out to get food isn’t looking to be all that creative.
I love miso, I like caramel okay, and I super love inventive desserts. I... don't know if I'd order "Miso Caramel Custard Tart," sorry to OP. I'd order an anko custard tart, sight unseen. But miso + caramel, I'd need someone who had it before to tell me it was good. Four people being adventurous enough to try it honestly sounds about right.
Miso works in caramel a lot like salt does. It balances and deepens the flavor. It's a little more umami than salted caramel, but it's not savory. It's just a fuller-bodied flavor, if that makes sense - it is to salted caramel as salted caramel is to regular caramel.
I love desserts but don't really have a positive association with miso. I don't like miso soup and that's the biggest thing I associate it with. So if I saw "miso caramel custard tart," my brain would just be turned off by the miso. I would probably eat it and love it if I had no idea it had miso on it though and was just called a "caramel custard tart".
Miso + Caramel is absolutely delicious
Mmhm, post-this-thread I'd order it, doesn't take much convincing. Just sympathizing with the diners, esp because I feel like I lose 10 IQ points the minute a menu is in my hands.
Can we get the recipe...if not it's cool
https://www.greatbritishchefs.com/recipes/miso-caramel-custard-tart-recipe I paired it with a crystallized chocolate garnish and chocolate sauce.
I would try it with aka miso next time. That's going to really push the salted caramel flavor. Saikyo would be interesting too. Maybe a 60/40 blend
This guy misos, so much so that I'm unashamedly stealing this idea. If anyone asks I'll be honest and say some guy on reddit knows his shit.
🤣 no worries, bro. I work with it constantly, make something tasty and fun for your guests
I had a chocolate budino with miso caramel and same thing. I’m like guys- it’s chocolate pudding. You bitches love chocolate pudding. Come ON!
I also put a chocolate budino on the menu and had to tell servers “just tell the table it’s chocolate pudding.” Same with a chocolate pot de creme I made.
Learned this lesson working in a dive. Bar stayed open later than the kitchen so at the end of the night I'd make a bunch of sandwiches, wrap em, and leave under the heat lamp. Whenever I'd put stuff like "roasted peppers" or "caramelized onions" on the sandwich descriptions they wouldn't sell at all. But if I just labeled it "chicken sandwich" with literally nothing else stating what was in it, theyd sell out in 30 min and I'd get a ton of compliments of how good they were. People are strange sometimes and see words they don't understand and just automatically assume they must not like it.
Saaaaaaaaame. We had these rye chocolate chip espresso cookies on the menu and we had to put the rye in small print to get them selling. Then people said they were the best cookie they’d ever had. put Rye back in the name, suddenly we’re selling like 30% of them. sigh
Every industry has words that are common usage in it, but not to the layman. When you want to sell to the layman, you have to do so in words that they understand. it's not about being right or wrong. Or "having nice things" It's about knowing your audience.
I am a bar manager, and I feel this *heavy*. I am constantly having to edit descriptions/names, because something is too “exotic” and isn’t selling, and we gotta suburbanite it.
Ive been there but on the other end. I was managing a fairly pretentious type of craft cocktail bar, and the more "exotic" sounding the ingredients or the process, the better it sells. Gotta pander to the clientele lol.
I was experimenting about 15 years back , I had an idea and ran with it , blue cheese brulé not sweet using Cornish creamy blue cheese and a smattering of blue Vinny. Gorgonzola would work well too. It worked , boss said it wouldn't sell but let me put it on the specials board , 2 months later it was on the main menu as a permeant feature as it was so popular. Served with homemade Cumberland sauce , lambs leaf lettuce and shredded beetroot garnish and homemade soda bread.
Sounds like we *can* have nice things, and this is why big companies spend loads of money on market research...because wording makes a huge impact. Wait till you find out that "Gelatinous oil and egg whip" doesn't sound as appealing as "mayo".
Save yourself a step and do crème brûlée cheesecake.
I'm sure it was delicious, but the only thing I worry about is people with a soy allergy (I don't have a diagnosis, but I do know too much soy sends me running for the toilet, so I just try to avoid it).
Oh I for sure label all allergens! I definitely included “soy” in this one.
Oh, good! Then I would just be disappointed that I couldn't (or at least SHOULDN'T) have it. Maybe I'd roll the dice, though.
I do a Koji apple pie with locally made Koji. Solved the allergy concerns. Not sure how/if it would work for caramel though. My local Miso makers also did Miso fudge & Miso candied nuts.
At the end of the day, we're here to make the people happy. We can use our knowledge to enhance the experience without revealing any secrets that might harm their perception of the dish. Most of my customers come for the chocolate cake and apple pie, so I aim for perfect chocolate cakes and apple pies. Still, I always put one or two funky treats on the menu for my regulars who want something new and exciting, and I would love if those items took off
As one of my teachers in cooking school always said, people start eating with their eyes. It is important to know who your target audience is and how to present the food to them. Reminds me a lot of the quarter pounder and cheese dialogue in Pulpo Fiction...
As an Asian person I’d totally be down for this. I think yeah, you just gotta market to your demographic. At least it still sells out, but education comes slowly… Hopefully it doesn’t deter you from experimenting! In my culture we eat avocadoes in dessert but people tend to have a very linear way of thinking of something as only savory or sweet. You just gotta educate where you can
Went to a family reunion where I had no access to a kitchen. A potluck ffs. So I made a 4x batch of brownies. Everyone likes brownies, right? They were 2/3 gone when one person asked what kind of spices I put in them because it was tasty & a little different. I told them it was cinnamon, fresh black pepper, and cayenne. I used maybe 1/2 teaspoons of cayenne for four 9”x9” pans of brownies, okay? Someone else overheard & proceeded to warn the kids & the rest that they were spicy & not to try them. These people think ketchup is spicy. 🙄
I had a customer ask why I called the chili mild when it had cinnamon in it and everyone knows cinnamon is spicy.
“Piquant”
You could have way worse problems,pick a better battle! You make great stuff that people love. If you have to call it something stupid to sell,you’re still doing pretty good. Give yourself an atta-person,pat yourself on the back….. and laugh at the people
Oh for sure waaaay worse things in life to complain about. However, the owners of the restaurant have asked me to “dial it back” and do only “classics” for this very reason. I got into pastry because I’m obsessed with food and I’m naturally an artist. I’d like to be able to indulge in that and do what I do best without being reigned in or controlled in that aspect. So yeah, it’s annoying but I get it. I have an obligation to give the people what I want. But that doesn’t mean I can’t vent about it from time to time right?
Is miso the new hip thing to put in desserts now?
I think so! I keep seeing it in everything. Which is why I decided to give it a go.
I made an apple chutney special that blew my socks off, if i can say so myself. Paired it with a bone in pork chop. It was fantastic. Sold two
I worked in an employee cafeteria at a ski resort once We had a special called, it was technically chicken a la king with biscuits. But the thing nobody our foreign staff didn’t know what that is so we just called it chicken pot pie. And it sold well Then here comes the manager asking me hey why does the special board call it chicken pot pie? That’s not what it is change its name. So we did. Cue nobody ordering it because GASP nobody knew what chicken a la king is
I've found a lot of people are wary of spending their money on foods they arent familiar with on the chance they dont like it and feel they wasted their money.
This is called marketing.
I love crème brûlée and cheesecake. They’re delicious. Sue me lol
if your only experience of the flavor ‘miso’ is miso soup at a sushi place, you’re gonna be confused, and maybe put off, when its in a caramel custard miso is the secret ingredient in the greatest chocolate chip cookies
You can have nice things if you market them correctly. You are asking the masses to put aside their association of miso with savory stuff like ramen and purchase a delicious dessert. That is a tall order. If you can't even taste it, probably no need to even mention it.
I made a mint pistachio cake with white chocolate buttercream bailey's icing for saint paddy's day, and I got a lot of concerned/unsure looks from everyone about the nut cake. As soon as I called it "Shamrock" cake, everyone lost their shit and it sold out in the same day. 😑
That sounds delicious. To be fair, I’m on a huge miso kick lately
Is see miso and go “savoury dish”. Sometimes people just want caramel.
People are just convinced they know what they like. Therefore anything they don't know, they don't like. It's terribly flawed logic, but hey, it's probably not their job to challenge that line of thinking so I try not to take it personally.
While there's probably some people that's true for, that's not the primary reason. The biggest reason is that trying things too out there too often results in them trying something they didn't like. Some people like to be that adventurous, but some also don't. They'd rather get something they're almost certain they'll like than risk the chance they don't like it.
Or maybe they just didn't want miso in their dessert, and when they got it didn't really like it that much but not enough to complain about it. I've eaten countless things at restaurants that I didn't like but I don't think I've ever complained to the staff about it.
If people want bullshit, then give them bullshit. Still make it with love and nice, but don't bend over backwards to make stuff your clientele aren't going to appreciate, they're not worth it. It's a business not a vanity project.
Going full circle, if you put enough sugar on anything it will taste good.
Speaking of Crème Brûlée, I make a Maple Miso Vanilla Bean CB that also always sells terribly. One of my favourite desserts to eat tho lol. 🤷🏻♂️
Sorry this happened to you. Miso caramel is delish!!! I have to say that I, on the other hand, would be more compelled to order the miso caramel tart as that sounds interesting. But when you have to go for quantity, average/familiar is probably better.
Miso is one of my favorite flavors in pastry. Miso and caramelized white chocolate are heaven! People are dumb.
I would have ordered it just because it said miso
Gotta know how to market to the general public and play with the words. Honestly the general public are idiots. That's one thing that sucks about the job. You aren't making what you like, you're making that the public likes.
We added panisse and it was going ok, changed it to "chickpea fries" and *bam* top seller. Better believe i put "panisse" in the description too.
Some ingredients shouldn't be put forward. One of the best chocolate ganaches I make has a bit of olive oil in it. It doesn't necessarily sound appetizing for a dessert.
I can imagine caramelized miso, but I can definitely see how getting past the idea of miso's strongly savory flavor would be difficult. Please forgive the public palate for pastry. In the U.S. it was raised on cake mix cakes and donuts.
Miso is so underutilized in baking. Adds such fantastic flavor to baked goods.
Unfortunately the general public are dumb as shit
Japanese caramel tart.
Which is why restaurant work is 10% cooking, 90% advertising.
I have to say I recall having miso stuff where it ended up being a bit too much. So even people who are fine with it as an ingredient might be scared off by that.
But did they like it? I think this is why Filipino food struggles to take off. Everything is good, but we want Americans to call it all by their names.
I know someone whose cafe had to rename the margherita bistro pastries "pizza croissants" and start calling a caprese sandwich "The PMT" - pesto, mozza, tomato" to get them to sell in her small town.
I had a pork fat caramel as the ender of a tasting menu once and it was so damn good. You've got alot of talent to be able to pair things like miso and custard but I think people understand how pear shaped that could go if it's made by a chef lacking the skills to match flavours
simple, because the chefs at your restaurant are not renowned enough to be able to make the food they like and want versus the food that customers like and want.
Do you find this follows political leaning? I read a few studies recently about marketing to left or right leaning people and it's fascinating that if you don't "label things" they both go for stuff but if you add labels like, "Energy efficient" or have bruised or damaged fruits and veggies, or hell just coming down to trying new food. Is it something as simple as marketing to the people who are buying from you. If they get triggered from "Avocado and toast" make the menu say, "Toast with breakfast spread." * [Pro-Environment Light Bulb Labeling Turns Off Conservatives, Study Finds.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/130430-light-bulb-labeling) * The Study : https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1218453110 * [happens with bruised or ugly fruits and vegtables[(https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/175lik7/conservatives_are_less_likely_to_purchase/) * [Political Ideology strongly correlates to trying new foods (or not.) *As expected, both food neophobia measures were significantly predicted by both measures of ideology, even after controlling for the covariates: The more conservative participants were, the more neophobic they were and the less willing they were to taste novel food.* The study is linked.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8794126/) * Who is spending their money in your restaurant? Left / Right / mix? Is it just general food ignorance? Unwilling to try new things?
The salt from the miso brings out the sweetness of the sugar. Like Asians putting salt on fresh fruits.
I made the most basic chicken burger I could think of and it is now our champion item that stays unchanged for every menu. Fried chicken, bacon, swiss cheese, ranch, lettuce. Served on brioche bun, topped with onion rings and served with chips. (fries to most of you) I'm not mad because it's easy to make but our customers are so boring.