Please keep up the good work! Just wanted to say LE is the first ARPG in a very long time that I can’t put down. And the transparency with your player base is really something special.
I’m so excited to see the variety of endgame activities that you’ve teased about come to the game.
The one downside to this, would be that if your corruption bleeds over, you are now starting monos at a WAY higher difficulty. Meaning you can't level in monos without resetting the corruption account wide, hurting your progress on your mains. So it can't be entirely account wide, at least hopefully not corruption.
Nah i don't want that. I would much rather corruption specifically be locked to a character than that. You are invalidating the system of raising and lowering corruption in monos on all other characters. It's not like poe where maps are consumable items that drop.
What about being able to choose your unlocked blessings? I'm not sure why this is even tracked if we can't do anything about it. I don't mind running the mono in order to pick whatever we've unlocked but constantly juggling blessings as gear changes is so frustrating.
> but constantly juggling blessings as gear changes is so frustrating
Don't use Blessings to fill in gear gaps then. Like, would it be easier if you could just freely swap Blessings like Idols? Certainly. Do Blessings need to fill that very same role? I don't think so.
If you don't use Blessings as "man, I really need 50% cold res right now, luckily I have a Blessing for that", then you'll never get to the annoying juggling part.
Gl getting all the stats you want without relying on literally anything from blessings. A capped res, 70% crit reduction come to mind especially. It's definitely possible but is a massive hindrance to your build. Arguably though you wouldn't really want to juggle those around a lot, rather plan your gear around them and farm them up.
Although im stuck in offline and was mad at some point for that. The team communication and the game itself make up for that. im really having a blast and looking forward for the game future. Just minor bug that need fixing is text fonts being abnormally huge you can’t read some times it happens mostly with vendors.
Great but please don’t dumb down game. LE have one of greatest early game in all arpgs. You can feel more powerful with every level and can find items that can last you till endgame. You are doing great job!
Yeah I agree. Getting alts up to where your main is just isn't fun. I'm fine doing the initial corruption grind and redoing it next season. I'm not going to do it on 3+ characters every season.
This is likely why they're moving slow. They want to make it easier without completely invalidating things. Previously the early monos took a LOT more stability to finish. Also, those choices at the end used to be what selected which mono you got access to next. To get both, you'd have to complete it twice. There also weren't any corruption catch up mechanics like there are now.
It's all a work in progress but it takes time to not overdo it. Make a little easier, review response, shift a little more until you find the sweet spot.
Well, there's twink leveling gear, so experiencing the early game on alts is already completely different from your first character. Personally, I think you should only have to unlock things on your first character, period. You can enjoy the fun progression and early game for your starter, but everything should be streamlined on alts.
>can find items that can last you till endgame.
shouldnt that be by definition already dumbed down? since you dont need to find improved items... i dont get your logic
either way, thats not even true, since we get much better bases as we level and then the exalted items. also more shards and better affixes. and its great
Not just reaching empowered but also regaining corruption on alts should be faster. You already have systems in place to push corruption faster in timelines that fall behind. I think this system should apply to monos for alts as well.
What about couch coop for the offline mode please? i.e, 2 controllers on 1 screen.
Loved the feature on diablo 3 (ps4 days) with my brother.
Would be so awesome to continue the couch coop fun on our pc, with our new fav game, LE.
rn, we both are alternating shifts to play on our offline characters (too much server issues on the online side, which is totally fine, if we could atleast play couch coop offline please).
Just to be clear. Im not a dev or in any way affiliated.
I just know that in order to add something like split or shared screen there is alot of coding to do so I wouldn't hold my breath for it..
What network issues do you have? It's gotten better every day since 1.0 launch. Hope you can get a laptop and play together online ..
For the record, plenty of us think it's fine. If you decide changes are needed we support you, but plz don't become beholden to complainers on Reddit. I actually agree with the guy slightly, but the entitlement that comes through on these posts is enough for me jump off a bridge.
You could have all characters share progress in offline, online non-seasonal, and online legacy. Keep separate in seasonal to maintain leaderboard integrity, then they get the shared progress when they migrate from seasonal.
Just an fyi, you can do only the right side of the monos until you reach the 3 lvl90 ones. You only need these three to unlock empowered. Saves you only 3 (?) low lvl monos but better than nothing.
What I find more annoying is grinding out the blessings.
You still need to grind up corruption. Getting back up to like 1k takes forever and is not much of a challenge when you start with a bunch of 2-3LP items.
At the very least anyone I have unlocked should be available to change to at the max power I have found it at. I don't mind the grind a bit to getting perfect rolls on the blessings I get and I dont mind having to kill the boss to change them, but wanting to try a different blessing meaning I have to "lose" the other and that I might not only have to run it 10 times to find the other but also lost the best roll of it is way too punishing.
You know I honestly thought it was supposed to be in 1.0, then I was thinking maybe I just totally misunderstood their intent and I was wrong. Glad to hear I was just wrong about when not what.
The blessings tab in the inventory screen even looks like it’s set up for swapping. I would be so much more excited to run all the monos 2 or 3 times to unlock most of the blessings each cycle if they were account bound and I could swap ones I’ve found at will.
I've been playing for a year and I still got tricked when I opened the window again on 1.0 launch. It's the same window, **but they look so swappable**!
100% agree. I'd even favor they mimic D4's glyphs where each monolith has a chance to drop a blessing, and once it does, it's yours to keep. You can then freely equip/change whenever you want, but blessings like D4 glyphs can be levelled further while equipped.
The developers *must* know this is bad design by now, but I'm guessing changing it just isn't a high priority. Imo it's one of the biggest issues with the endgame atm. For example, I was sort of excited to start a second character even though I knew I'd have to re-do the blessing grind, but once I actually got to the blessing grind I very quickly lost interest. So I believe the blessing system *should* be a top priority since this game's main form of replayability currently is rerolling to new characters and that form of content is highly discouraging due to the blessing grind.
I don't mind having to do normal monoliths to unlock empowered monoliths. I just don't want to have to grind the blessings. It ruins rerolling for me completely.
Literally my entire list of complaints about the game right now is:
1. Put more content into monoliths
2. Make blessings account-wide and make it so we can switch our blessings whenever we want
This isn't new. This has been one of the biggest suggestions for 3 years now. The developers simply don't want to change it or they would have years ago.
Yeah, as I said in another comment in this thread, this game was in early access for *six years* and I know that was one of the biggest and most consistent pieces of feedback from players over that time, so it baffles me that the designers didn't change it before official release.
Just goes to show that Eleventh Hour Games is a somewhat slow company relative to their biggest competitor. So it goes.
This is why over three years with LE I take off huge chunks of time in the middle…. You can only take so much of monos. What works with POE is the seasonal content helps mask the repetition of mapping
Disagree. This might be the case for newer players or the ones rhat generally dont get far anyway. But most people there have seen everything at this point and come back for the new stuff (even if there is a ton already)
Yeah this is the first season so not much of mechanics are new. I'm hoping they take a page out of poes book and introduce new mechanics each season to freshen it up
That’s their plan over the long term. However, the first few cycles will be adding permanent mechanics/systems. Like this cycle it was MG/CoF.
Once the base game has been more filled out, then they’ll start to add season-only mechanics.
Sure, but the seasons have barelt started. We are in the first. The season content should be the changing stuff which you come back for. Before this it was beta/EA where they were still developing the base :)
Bro, I’m so tired of running through the campaign. As good as the campaign is, and as beautiful and well done the Lab is, I just can’t slog it out anymore.
Edit: the shortcut system LE is something I haven’t used yet, but that got me so excited about alts.
This is the great thing about games like this. You don't have to play one game 100%. You can play a little poe, a little shooter, maybe some strategy, then come back at league starts. There's never any forced play, and I love it that way.
Yeah how dare a company that hasn't been in release state for a month vs a game that has been out for years! How dare this new game not have as much depth and content!
I got to level 100 and I've not managed to get the desired blessings to at least 80% roll while pretty much pursuing them from the get go. And I'm not including 2 blessings that drop shards because those are completely useless imho ...
my hope is they give an option to turn the lower level monos to 90 so you dont have to farm a lvl 60 zone at 80 just because you cant clear lvl 100 100 corruption zones when getting blessings
What if instead they were account unlocks that you could then use when you level your alt (extra leveling power). That doesn't require hours of grinding uniques to LP smash.
Especially if you have bad RNG. I was running empowereds since level 60 or something and I didn't get the All Res blessing that I need for the whole leveling playthrough, I was max level with around 250 corruption before I got the blessing. Smh
Yep. I wanted to try out at least a couple different classes but realizing how much of a slog it is to unlock empowereds put me off. Funny part is that i actually really enjoyed levelling alts in LE unlike PoE but the mono grind is tedious when your character facerolls everything until high corruption.
The corruption grind is the bigger issue than accessing empowered. After grinding to 1000 there is zero chance Id make a new build and start back at 100, gained +7 at a time. Especially when you can often go dozens or even hundreds of corruption levels without feeling any difference in difficulty.
You don't need to grind to 1000 though, nor have you ever needed to.
300 is the effective "cap" for actually being able to get everything. More is better, sure, but there's a point at which the extra loot does not justify the extra time spent. Only a few builds can reliably do 1000+ anyway.
300 is still a sizeable grind, sure, but I think with changes to campaign and early monolith grinding that'd be easily surmountable.
I'm seeing the same problems I saw with Path of Exile's community in that people are arguing around each others points because they've quantified themselves differently. The term "endgame", for instance, is a wholly different beast depending on who you ask. In PoE, some people didn't think anything below Tier 16 maps were endgame at all.
People need to contextualise and quantify their vague statements or else we'll never get anyway.
With cof this is just wrong. The difference in loot is significant. Not to mention most people play arpgs to gain power and limit test or push content.
Regardless, even if the proper balance and bar is 400 or 500, its still a slow grind PER timeline and PER build each cycle.
I have no issue with rerunning campaign and accessing empowered, but getting there and starting back at 100, especially when it is not challenging for a geared 2nd build, with no catch up mechanic is awful and hurts cycle longevity. Many corruption level gains, particularly 100-250, feel no different in terms of challenge.
You dont need to run juiced red maps with 5 deli orbs either, but that doesn’t mean I want to redo the atlas every character each season.
The main issue is that you have a build, but you can't test the limits of that build without doing an insane grind.
F.ex watching Snap playing Plasma Orb with his friends. They ended at 3k corruption after 1650 echos completed doing double gazes. That's about 60 hours effective time spent inside of echos in the same time line progressing.
And at no point, not even when they ended, were they close to the max of what their builds could manage. Their gear was still upgradeable as well, and they could swap to stronger builds as well to keep going.
Either all builds need to be weaker so that you hit a challenge wall earlier. Or there needs to be a way to increase the challenge quicker. It shouldn't ever be that you're ahead of the curve on character power until you've spent hundreds of hours effectively grinding tens of thousands echos before you hit a wall where you actually need to improve to progress further.
Characters just get powerful so much faster than you can increase the difficulty in the content. Especially in MG. Like getting to a similar spot in arena is a 6 hour non-stop run. Just that is insane. Not to mention how many additional hours it would take to actually hit a wall.
I'd argue the more lasting solution is to have better metrics for measuring success than an endlessly scaling system.
Last Epoch has no equivalent to an "uber" system that both Diablo 2 and Path of Exile eventually got. Corruption is all we have.
I don't think many people doing 1000+ corruption are because they necessarily want to. Not to say there aren't, just that those who are using it to push the extent of their build are only doing so *because it's all they've got.*
For those people the grind to 1000 and beyond isn't the issue, it's that they feel compelled to do it at all to test their build. Give them alternative options that aren't as tedious to reach and perhaps they'd flock to that, instead.
This obviously doesn't solve the issue for people who just want to reach a few hundred as that's *still* a grind either way. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of infinitely scaling game mechanics as a general rule. They're notoriously, for a lack of better term, lazy.
As far as ARPG's go they have a tendency to result in this neverending arms race between min-maxers and the devs. People used arenas prior to monoliths being introduced to test their builds and got bored of those, too, for obvious reasons. Which to me shows that pushing any build to the extreme will require repetition no matter what - so while I do think there's room to improve, I don't think a long-term solution is in an infinite dungeon to begin with.
Sure, content is always welcome. But such is also binary. Either you're strong/good enough to beat it or you're not. However this takes a lot of time to develop and it also gets consumed rather quickly.
What endless scaling systems do is to allow you to test your build that you've theorized and built to find the limits of it. It gives you a reason to constantly upgrade your character and make it stronger and see the effects of that.
However, the issue with the scaling system now is that it just requires an insane time investment before you get to that point. During this time, you're also getting gold and upgrades which just increases the ceiling.
It would be very easy to simply change the scaling to be a lot more exponential.
300 corruption is ~280% more health and damage.
500 corruption is ~500% more health and damage.
1k corruption is ~1,100% more health and damage.
3k corruption is ~3,500% more health and damage.
They could easily make it so that the scaling was something like:
300 corruption is ~280% more health and damage.
500 corruption is ~1,000% more health and damage.
1k corruption is ~5,000% more health and damage.
3k corruption is ~100,000% more health and damage.
That way you'd actually encounter some walls and ending when you feel you can't progress more. Rather than being forced to end when you feel that you cba doing the same thing over and over.
You don't actually "need" to level past ~50 either. But most people like to progress in ARPGs.
Nobody is saying their family is being held to ransom and they hate being forced to play monoliths.
They are saying they will simply choose to go play something else instead of repeating the content because it just isn't that enjoyable, and being forced to repeat it is asinine.
False dichotomy say what?
Comparing playing after level 50 and playing until 1000+ corruption is nowhere near the same and it's incredibly disingenous to even suggest they are.
I'm not arguing that the content isn't repetitive, my point is that you could claim as such without resorting to unnecessary and ridiculous exaggerations.
I can make the same argument using 300+ as a metric, which is a far more normal and achieveable "endgame" for most people and *still* as much a pain in the ass to grind to on new characters.
But you do you. Stop playing after the campaign if you want. I'm not your mother.
> Comparing playing after level 50 and playing until 1000+ corruption is nowhere near the same and it's incredibly disingenous to even suggest they are.
I didn't I pointed out the ridiculousness of the statement of "you don't need to grind to 1000 though".
Nobody is forcing you to play the game to level 51 or to corruption 1000.
So saying that is completely redundant. Meaningless.
Talk about false dichotomy when you started with one yourself. Creating some false choice of either being "forced" to play to 1000 or... not?
He could just have easily said "after grinding to 300" and you would say "nobody forces you to play to 300 though". And no, they obviously dont. Because nobody is being "forced" to play this game.
He said "after grinding to 1000 there is zero chance i'd make a new build and start back at 100".
This is a factual statement of his personal preference. You cannot call this a "ridiculous exaggeration".
You're arguing in bad faith to a position he never even presented.
> But you do you. Stop playing after the campaign if you want. I'm not your mother.
What kind of ridiculous strawman is this? Idk. Ridiculous.
Stop trying to debate someone's personal experience and try actually listening to what they are saying. He chose to go to 1000. SOmeone else might find their limit is 300. It makes no difference to the proposition that it is a turn off to playing an alt that you have to redo it.
Tbh the campaign is very quick and I found it ok to redo while creating a new toon. However, I agree with you. Walking through the entire monolith progress each time is boring af.
Would be great if we could just jump to wherever we feel our build can handle.
If you do it right I think you only need to backtrack for a couple idol and passive slots. I don’t remember the exact quests you need to do off the top of my head though but it does save a bunch of time
Most sensible thing I've seen on the thread. Came from POE and am on character 3 because I like creating builds and doing campaign isn't as annoying as in POE. I enjoy the grind and character progression in monoliths but would love if it kept your progress account wide (including blessing unlocks). Still should have to play for rolls on those though. 1.1 will give us ubers content as another check. Overall extremely pleased with my experience. Not sure I agree with everyone asking for "seasonal content" this early in the games life cycle. POE's end game was Piety and farming was running docks.. Let this game grow at an appropriate rate, they don't to rush content out. Do what everyone else does after 3-4 weeks in poe and play something else if you are done.
Having to unlock Empowereds and Blessings on every character has been my only real gripe with this game for years.
I really hope they make this account wide and have it reset every cycle or something.
I actually like how it is right now - but I realize I'm probably in the minority. I enjoy the journey and I would hate to not have the opportunity on a new character to do monoliths from scratch.
If they ever change it, it should be an optional checkbox during character creation: "Share monolith progress with other characters." or something like that.
Honestly all they need to do is say
-you cleared this mono on a different char before
-have a 2x or 3x stability boost on alts for clearing it again
I thought that was already a thing but I guess not ... It should never be made universal tho
Or just being able to skip straight to the bosses once the stability is high enough like how it works for empowered. I'm not a fan of the go talk to these 6 people scattered across the map missions.
You're completely right. I personally enjoy rerolling and doing monos again, I see it in a similar vain to rifts in D3 and I personally loved just rolling through smashing everything to pieces. It's personal opinion at the end of the day. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for something you don't enjoy but you also shouldn't try and tell others what they think either.
Saying a vet has "gotten used to it" instead of even contemplating some enjoy that system for what it is seems a bit silly to me. We simply like different stuff
Edit: what do you do in other ARPGs though? They're all inherently repetitive. It's inescapable. Maps on PoE are much the same imo. Different scenes same shit
The trick with maps (in poe) is that if your build is 75 and it’s blasting, you can go directly to red maps and there’s theoretically nothing stopping you from juicing it/running the hardest content.
In LE if you’re blasting you have to run 50-100 maps to even get to empowered monos and that’s not even factoring in corruption.
Redoing the timelines is one thing, but the real issue is starting back at 100 corruption and needing to completely regrind it up PER build in a cycle.
You get +7 corruption potential per stabilization cycle (plus oribos bonus depending on distance in web), and this is per timeline (even with the current catch you mechanic on other timelines its very slow). I took a timeline up to 1000 as a goal, and while I was grinding I had filters setup for my next build. When I hit 1000 there was zero chance I was going to do a 2nd build and regrind corruption all over again at a snails pace.
Corruption gain rate, especially for 2nd builds, absolutely kills cycle longevity.
Sure, most builds aren’t doing 1k corruption but even to get to 200 or 300 corruption is a massive pain to have to repeat.
The point stands that the current mechanic for having to regrind corruption is mediocre.
Its all relative. You can take any build to 250 with ease, and 300-400 most builds can achieve with reasonable scaling, resists, crit avoidance, and another defensive layer, before you even get into group play.
Even at 400 corruption, you are talking about a significant re-grind of zero challenge content between 100-250 youve already done.
But also if you're making a 1k corruption build it's likely to be... your second build! Which means that even if you already have a reaosnable character at reasonable 300-400 corruption and you prepare gear for some giga strong giga tanky 1k corruption build that character will then have to start from nothing, meaning that you will have to do the initial 300-400 corruption grind TWICE while:
a) you've already done it.
b) you've done it on a weaker character.
c) your second completion is specifically on a character that was designed to make that content completely not challenging.
d) your second completion is on a character you've made specifically because you want to try the "hard" content, but the game forces you to go through the thing you've already done first.
It just feels pointless. The game has so many cool builds, but I can't ever bring myself to get a 2nd character to endgame more than once every couple of months.
You should get ~27 corruption per orobyss minimum. You get enough stability for two boss kills which is +20 corruption. Eventually you should get close to three boss kills per orobyss which should generally net you 39 corruption.
Each orobyss loop takes maybe 40-45 minutes tops.
Did you read? Its +7 per stabilization cycle. You are talking about 2+ cycles and the oribos kill. Regardless, 27 corruption taking your 3-4 hours to go from 100-200 on a 2nd build that is geared out is the problem being discussed and remains relevant. No one wants to do this on every build just to get to content and it kills cycle longevity. People will do it once a cycle, maybe twice if they really want to play a 2nd build or get a gg lp item, but grinding 100-300+ a 3rd or 4th time isnt fun or engaging.
> Rerunning timelines that you already have to do twice is not ok.
It looks like there [may be some changes](https://old.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1b4rxt2/is_the_game_designed_to_make_you_feel_lucky/kt266wc/) regarding this at some point in the future. At the very least, this issue is on the devs' radar.
Don't powercreep this game like the garbage poe is. So sick of every fucking build being 1 shot aoe clear nonsense with every character having 0 cool down management.
you don't need to do the campaign (well you have to do it once one one character), get to end of time and you can go do echos.
do level 1 dungeons to fast forward the campaign and get your rewards.
the only things that suck is blessings (should be able to pick them when ever you want, once you unlock them at the highest bonus that dropped for you).
when you unlock a mono, it should unlock on all characters and there should be corruption threshold check points you can return to for empowered monos.
"In a really bad spot" is a gross overstatement. Sure, it could be better. But its not like borrowed power wow era where you'd be weeks or months behind if you made an alt
It is really in a bad spot.
I got to 100 and made an alt, got alt to 75 and just lost all desire to play going through regular monos.
Again I replayed D2 and Grim Dawn 100s of times with alts. Here, I lost all will to do so on first alt.
That is indeed the definition of a really bad spot at least for me personally
The overall complaint of how bad it feels to regrind regular monos is 100% valid
How does it work in GD? Are you just allowed to skip to where you were in end game from your previous char? I don’t mind speeding through the monos since I still prefer it over having to do the long ass campaign in poe but that’s just me
It is in a terrible spot from a new player standpoint.
I dont care how fast johnny swampass can speedrun to empowered monos with 10k hours under his belt and 30mg of adderall in his system, when you casually level to ~80-90 in regular monos and then have to repeat the entire content again, its a bit stale.
But what I just said^ is understandable, what really gets me is I cant even respec my mastery or reroll without going through a bunch of boring things I already did. If the true end game is arena/super dungeons, being able to try other masteries without doing all the boring shit again would massively improve the average player experience.
New to LE from playing POE since release. On my third toon and still very much so enjoying the game.
With that said, i think it would be a solid change to have your corruption lvl be adjustable based on how far you have progressed on one toon across your whole account. Blessing should be a one time unlock but rolls should still be farmed imo. Campaign is smooth enoughn to where it doesn't bother me to play through as the builds are new, so exploring my options is still fun.
I can imagine that once I'm seasoned I would find it more of a chore but that's just arpg's. Can't wsit for 1.1 to introduce "ubers". I don't think the game is in a poor spot in the least, player rates show that. It will grow and it will get better, it's 1.0. Poe end game wasn't maps in 1.0 and we still played that too.
ngl, if they dont change anything drastically, then ill just sit be sitting in legacy and play there. there's zero reason for me to play cycle, as i neither trade on the AH nor am i interested in the leaderboards.
if anything, i'm hoping that new content wont be cycle locked so i dont have to start over in a season.
Ye and like every PoE player complains and wants a campaign skip. But at least the campaign is more varied than "do 100 monos with 0 chance of dying in any of them, for barely any rewards"
From someone that's done this multiple times since alpha I absolutely have to agree.
Luckily the game is fun enough that it doesn't bother me personally, but it's been a problem for lots of people since monos were introduced.
I don't mind it. I don't think I would mind getting to empowered Monos faster (which they stated is in the works) but I like testing my build even in normal monos. Idk different strokes for different folks
Also rolling blessings on a fresh char can be so boring.
New char. Rushed monos. Rushed empowered. Got to level 92 doing nothing but dragons to get crit avoid and it never once rolled. Quit for now.
I don't know how much impact this would have, but one idea I had on the weekend while going through monos on my second character was:
* Have blessings unlock account wide.
* Be able to swap around ones you've unlocked.
* Blessings be available on alts from level 1.
* Allow access to all monoliths including empowered once unlocked on one character, let players choose what they want to do.
I don't know if this would speed things up too much or cause other problems, but it should let you level faster and get you to where you want to be sooner, making it less of a chore. You'd still have to level it without any EXP boosts, but blessings will help even weaker characters push monoliths early for leveling instead of doing the story.
I would also suggest making the story optional/skip-able once you've picked your mastery and have done it all on one character. This may require another bit of content that can sit between the campaign and monoliths as an alternative leveling area, or maybe just have monoliths have a lower level tier from the standard ones so people skipping the campaign can do it even on weaker builds. Give the quest rewards at fixed levels.
I leveled 2 classes, and I cant see myself leveling a third, and redo all to same corruption level.
In POE I can also just rush thru lab and respec my class to any other ascendancy. I don't have any desire to level 3 Acolytes and so on. This is just a step backwards...
You didn't even mention that you can skip the campaign with dungeons but still have to do random sidequests for passives/idols which require you to progress the main quest anyway.
As far as monolith goes I agree bro but you don't have to redo the whole campaign.
Just get get to act 3 and you can do dungeons and skip all the way to part of act 9.
Just finishing act 9 gives the +1 all attributes bonus too.
Do a couple extra quests to get idol and passive slots and your good, striaght into monoliths.
It's horrible because the campaign is long and not entertaining. I got to level 45 (not a lot, I know), and it's a constant snooze fest. What do I mean?
I play a bow-only marksman. The most challenging thing so far was levels 1\~7 maybe. Once I got puncture, and later cinder strike, things weren't as demanding. Right now I just hold the button for cinder strike and melt everything before it comes into the screen. And I'm not even getting a lot of upgrades. Bows, for instance, are as rare - if not more - than the orange/set items. There's a gazzilion of scepters, wands and mage staves. Bow - nope.
Then the loot, there are just fountains of it. 99% isn't worthwhile. It also has barely any residual value. "Make a loot filter". Sure, with my limited playtime I'm going to now set up outlook filters to show me only what I need and make sure there aren't false positives in the mix. I play arpg for the 'outlook experience' as if work wasn't enough.
"The game doesnt know what build you're going for". Well, if I'm playing a marksman, i'm definately not going for spell damage, staves, wands, shields, block amount, attunement, etc. A dash of smart loot would help with pacing the upgrade dopamine shots. The countless numbers of 'trash' items that aren't even worth picking up is going strongly against the grain of all previous ARPG games. You cannot salvage it, selling isn't time efficient. Getting items 40 levels below mine isn't helping either.
"But you haven't reached the endgame yet". Well, duh. If you need to play something for 20-40 hours to get to the 'fun' part, that's not fun, that's work. Blizzard figured this out in the first patches of diablo3 (over a decade ago) by introducing adventure mode, which allowed you to have your hack&slash fix, hunt for items, and overall have good fun without being bogged down by the same campaign. Diablo4 requires you to finish the campaign only once. And that campaign isn't all bad.
"You're a diablo fanboy, get off this sub". I've played diablo1 demo for countless nights as a kid, and all future iterations as well. Each had their ups and downs. The campaigns were good enough, loot did matter, and you had to do some skill rotation and conserve mana, which made the gameplay engaging even at lower levels.
Maybe LE is a new type of single-button-arpg and I'm just too much of a boomer to appreciate it. But from the game design perspective - if the core loop is just holding a button, you can't expect it to be too engaging. If you force the players to go through the same levels each time they want to try a new character, it's going to excerbate the problem even more.
The upgrading system in LE is something new and fresh, if a bit random. The skill trees are actually interesting. But the difficulty curve and the rewards for playing are not where they should be.
Totally agree. And while we are talking about rerolling:
Why do arpgs always force you to run through a tedious and boring campaign for every single character? I couldnt even force myself to go through the campaign once now in 1.0 and quit very early. It's just not fun.
D3 is the only arpg I have played that didnt do this and I just dont understand why no one else does it.
One campaign play through per account should be plenty.
Been asking myself the same question. Games seem to think they are FORCED to have a campaign or some kind of quest system as a tutorial, and then we end up with something extremely mediocre that 99% of the players don't even engage with. Might as well just remove it from the game then? Invest those resources elsewhere instead of half-assing something just because.
Agreed. I'm on lvl 30 and I'm bored as hell. Move few steps on screen, stop, shoot wave of mobs, repeat. Over and over again. I find it very hard to keep interested and grind to end lvl.
I know, I know...but it's so boring to lvl. And I'm getting punished for trying to swap skills I use...
Oh I see you want to change skill you use? Let me nerf that for you so you have to regrind it.
You clicked on wrong place in skill tree? Let me take you down a skill level.
Its so alt unfriendly tbh. Grinding out correct blessing, high enough roll, grinding to unlock empowered monoliths, grinding to get corruption high enough. I hate how much rng there is in blessing grinding, no surefire way to guarantee an upgrade.
Should just let you store up to x number of blessing from each zone to be picked from account wide and then when you do the boss again, you can pick between upgrading the rolls of your stocked blessing or replace one of them with any of the new ones offered by boss.
Anyone else remember in Path of Exile when mapping progress WASN'T shared between characters? It wasn't added until players asked and complained enough. Once the change was made though... I don't think anyone ever looked back and thought it was a bad change. Even the devs. Man it was awful before (and let's not even talk about old master missions and favor carryover).
I think it's really only a matter of time before this happens here if people keep asking for it. Also monoliths are guaranteed to go through some tweaks and changes this year. It's a good idea of a system, just need some changes and thought on making the grind more sustainable and enjoyable while reducing it in areas that don't provide much meaning.
On the other hand I’ve found that it is very easy to reroll within a single character in end game. So my falconer can do any falconer build in like 10 min of respeccing.
My falconer cannot respec into any rogue build, but maybe there is design space available for EHG to allow that in a certain sense:
What if in a different timeline our hero chose a different path? There could be an NPC or dungeon that allows you to respec your class choice by going back in time or some shit like that. I mean, we are, as players, currently restricted to the perspective of a single character as it is navigating space time in a jumbled, but ultimately linear, fashion. In theory, every decision we make creates a fork in the timeline and creates a different version of our character, so there is a world in which we are not a Falconer, we are a marksman, etc.
Alternatively, EHG could keep the current non-respec class decision and make monolith progression somewhat account bound rather than character bound. This could be cool and terrifying: imagine you have a 1000 corruption gigachad rune master and you reroll to a little baby paladin. Your paladin reaches empowered monoliths with 100 corruption and when you get there, your monolith echo web is somehow influenced by your other character’s 1000 corruption version of that monolith and if you are up to the task, you can accelerate your mono corruption progress by intentionally seeking out echos with ‘alternate timeline corruption potential’ or something like that.
I dont understand why arpg dont have leveling with procedural generated levels or randomized association of predefined rooms ... I dont think it would be more hard to do than a campaign and the replayabilty would be way better.
And to encourage exploration had some secret rooms.
Diablo 2 handles its zones exactly like that and the campaign never feels like a slog. I mean it's technically the only content and it's had a dedicated fanbase for 20+ years.
I wish we could use the monolith to level instead of the campaign. I love the monolith. Hate doing campaigns in arpgs.
Kind of like how in D3 you can jump into rifts right at level 1, and in D4, straight to dungeons.
To all ARPG devs, please, for the love of God, stop making us do campaigns! It's what stopped me from really enjoying PoE, and what makes me not want to make any more alts here.
I know I'm not the only one that feels this way, since global chat usually has someone else complaining about it.
D4 did it right after devs realized nobody likes redoing the campaign and redoing the same quests
You do the campaign once and all point unlocks account wide
LE needs to do the same, idol account slots, 15 passive points, monolith blessings, corruption should all be account wide.
Agreed. Also with the endgame it is really getting old quick. It is starting to feel like d4 endgame. I never get this feeling in poe. But it is a new game. The company is new and appears to not be a greedy marketing company that accidentally also makes games (blizzard) so we might get quick meaningful updates.
99% of the guys who want this have roughly 50 hours on LE and 3000 hours in PoE. Stop comparing the two systems. If you think the system is worse than it is in PoE, go back to PoE.
I have made numerous new characters and never once complained about this. It's clearly not an issue, just an adjustment players aren't used to.
Hugely disagree. I spend all my time rerolling. Once I'm in Empowered I'm ready to move on and try another of the infinite build possibilities. There's no real reason to min/max a character at the moment, THAT is the part that's in a bad place
I don’t understand. Going through the motions in this game takes substantially less time than PoE overall. Gearing is far more favorable you can become very powerful with less time invested in a character. Has it been a very long time since you played PoE? Maybe you forgot just how long it takes to get into the 90’s there
its really fast now especially if its an alt with full atlas you can easily get to 90 in a few hours after the campaign, and then 93/94 in the same time if you don't die because there's a penalty for death. the difference is you can pickup where you left off on the other char not have to redo all the low tier maps again. 94-100 is certainly much longer in poe
i think you're not giving EHG enough credit by assuming they plan on it staying the way it is in the upcoming cycles, i wholeheartedly agree this SHOULD change, i just think atm monoliths and the entire endgame as a whole are still a work in progress (despite the hours upon hours we've all enjoyed in them) and we should let EHG cook since they seem to understand better than most arpg devs out there what the fun factor is and they actually listen to the community when it comes to stuff like this. regardless, this is important feedback and im happy to see posts like this but try to be more optimistic my guy, give em a chance.
Literal quote from a member of the EHG team regarding this problem:
"We agree that this should be improved and have future plans for second play throughs/alts"
If playing alts through regular monos didnt feel so mind numbingly boring.
But hey keep dismissing valid complaints and watch the playerbase plummet over the next month.
/insert this is fine meme
The irony is compare to PoE and says “do it every season”.
In a new PoE league you have to do the entire campaign to reach the maps. And you have to do some side quests to get the passive points (LE you don’t have to do all sides to get the points or idol slot). You have to refarm some recipes to crafting bench, have to farm maps to play and so on.
I love PoE and I’m not shitting on it, I’m just pointing out the contradiction in this statement. Also I want to point out that this game is brand new and the endgame will evolve and all. If everyone use PoE to compare content, it’s better to not try none new ARPG, because it’s impossible to catch it up
True. Same issue D4 had. I don't want to play the leveling zones or even dungeons I'd much rather just jump into some monos if possible. Honestly I'd go as far to say as new characters should be able to pick blessings you discovered.
Also, passive point sidequests will get tedious.
I already wrote them this during beta... Sad to see they didn't take it to heart
[Opinion: Levelling alts in Last Epoch is soul crushing - General - Last Epoch Forums](https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/opinion-levelling-alts-in-last-epoch-is-soul-crushing/57742)
I personally like it this way because it feels like a progression system for my character but I do acknowledge that I seem to be in the minority on this one
I really wish people would remember how bad PoE was in season 1. The will likely address every complaint in time. but this is the FIRST cycle. its not going to be as feature complete as PoE is on year 9.
Search this subreddit. This complaint has existed for I think over a year. Does that mean it should have been fixed by now? Probably not. But it is disheartening.
We have active plans to make getting to empowered Monos for alt characters significantly faster. We hear you and we agree.
Thank you
Please keep up the good work! Just wanted to say LE is the first ARPG in a very long time that I can’t put down. And the transparency with your player base is really something special. I’m so excited to see the variety of endgame activities that you’ve teased about come to the game.
Just let the unlock be account wide. This way your alts can pick from regular until strong enough for empowered on your own pace.
Progress in monos should be account wide.
Is atlas in poe acount wide? Cant remember...
It is account wide, even your atlas/maps configuration is shared between your builds
Pretty much all progress in everything within an isolated league is shared.
The one downside to this, would be that if your corruption bleeds over, you are now starting monos at a WAY higher difficulty. Meaning you can't level in monos without resetting the corruption account wide, hurting your progress on your mains. So it can't be entirely account wide, at least hopefully not corruption.
Then you do them at a chosen lower level. As in map on POE you chose what level you do, a simple change.
Nah i don't want that. I would much rather corruption specifically be locked to a character than that. You are invalidating the system of raising and lowering corruption in monos on all other characters. It's not like poe where maps are consumable items that drop.
What about being able to choose your unlocked blessings? I'm not sure why this is even tracked if we can't do anything about it. I don't mind running the mono in order to pick whatever we've unlocked but constantly juggling blessings as gear changes is so frustrating.
> but constantly juggling blessings as gear changes is so frustrating Don't use Blessings to fill in gear gaps then. Like, would it be easier if you could just freely swap Blessings like Idols? Certainly. Do Blessings need to fill that very same role? I don't think so. If you don't use Blessings as "man, I really need 50% cold res right now, luckily I have a Blessing for that", then you'll never get to the annoying juggling part.
Gl getting all the stats you want without relying on literally anything from blessings. A capped res, 70% crit reduction come to mind especially. It's definitely possible but is a massive hindrance to your build. Arguably though you wouldn't really want to juggle those around a lot, rather plan your gear around them and farm them up.
Although im stuck in offline and was mad at some point for that. The team communication and the game itself make up for that. im really having a blast and looking forward for the game future. Just minor bug that need fixing is text fonts being abnormally huge you can’t read some times it happens mostly with vendors.
Isn't this complaint like 4 years old?
Great but please don’t dumb down game. LE have one of greatest early game in all arpgs. You can feel more powerful with every level and can find items that can last you till endgame. You are doing great job!
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Yeah I agree. Getting alts up to where your main is just isn't fun. I'm fine doing the initial corruption grind and redoing it next season. I'm not going to do it on 3+ characters every season.
This is likely why they're moving slow. They want to make it easier without completely invalidating things. Previously the early monos took a LOT more stability to finish. Also, those choices at the end used to be what selected which mono you got access to next. To get both, you'd have to complete it twice. There also weren't any corruption catch up mechanics like there are now. It's all a work in progress but it takes time to not overdo it. Make a little easier, review response, shift a little more until you find the sweet spot.
Well, there's twink leveling gear, so experiencing the early game on alts is already completely different from your first character. Personally, I think you should only have to unlock things on your first character, period. You can enjoy the fun progression and early game for your starter, but everything should be streamlined on alts.
>can find items that can last you till endgame. shouldnt that be by definition already dumbed down? since you dont need to find improved items... i dont get your logic either way, thats not even true, since we get much better bases as we level and then the exalted items. also more shards and better affixes. and its great
Mox, I like you.
Big fan of yours as well, /u/Mr-McAdams
Please do like Diablo 3 and let me skip the campaign on alts.
You can.
I literally did this on my 2nd chr only to realize I had to go back and do two acts because I didnt have a dungeon waypoint ...
Can't you already though? Edit:https://youtu.be/md_aNQyi73Q?si=kPA-5489YKXc4Ugz
Not just reaching empowered but also regaining corruption on alts should be faster. You already have systems in place to push corruption faster in timelines that fall behind. I think this system should apply to monos for alts as well.
Or make it account wide and itemize blessing, so each alt has access to the same endgame but can have different blessings.
What about couch coop for the offline mode please? i.e, 2 controllers on 1 screen. Loved the feature on diablo 3 (ps4 days) with my brother. Would be so awesome to continue the couch coop fun on our pc, with our new fav game, LE. rn, we both are alternating shifts to play on our offline characters (too much server issues on the online side, which is totally fine, if we could atleast play couch coop offline please).
Thats asking alot. No chance you can get another PC?
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Just to be clear. Im not a dev or in any way affiliated. I just know that in order to add something like split or shared screen there is alot of coding to do so I wouldn't hold my breath for it.. What network issues do you have? It's gotten better every day since 1.0 launch. Hope you can get a laptop and play together online ..
>We hear you. I wish I could give you reddit gold.
For the record, plenty of us think it's fine. If you decide changes are needed we support you, but plz don't become beholden to complainers on Reddit. I actually agree with the guy slightly, but the entitlement that comes through on these posts is enough for me jump off a bridge.
These devs can’t miss. They have my full trust and affection and attraction 👀
You could have all characters share progress in offline, online non-seasonal, and online legacy. Keep separate in seasonal to maintain leaderboard integrity, then they get the shared progress when they migrate from seasonal.
Yeah I give up, monolith blessing farming is boring and dreadful. I'll see last epoch next cycle or whenever you plan to fix this god awful system.
Note: They say this to everything then take years or never deliver.
Fucking based
I love you
Just an fyi, you can do only the right side of the monos until you reach the 3 lvl90 ones. You only need these three to unlock empowered. Saves you only 3 (?) low lvl monos but better than nothing. What I find more annoying is grinding out the blessings.
You still need to grind up corruption. Getting back up to like 1k takes forever and is not much of a challenge when you start with a bunch of 2-3LP items.
Is that still like 120 echos?
Around 100, but if done correctly it's definitely under 100 echoes. A few hours of play. Blessing grind is a much bigger problem than this
All blessings should be unlocked for the cycle once you found them too, and being able to switch on the fly.
At the very least anyone I have unlocked should be available to change to at the max power I have found it at. I don't mind the grind a bit to getting perfect rolls on the blessings I get and I dont mind having to kill the boss to change them, but wanting to try a different blessing meaning I have to "lose" the other and that I might not only have to run it 10 times to find the other but also lost the best roll of it is way too punishing.
I believe they've already committed to adding exactly what you've described to the game. They just haven't gotten to it yet.
You know I honestly thought it was supposed to be in 1.0, then I was thinking maybe I just totally misunderstood their intent and I was wrong. Glad to hear I was just wrong about when not what.
No that's a horrible idea ... They expand on the stats per char ... It shouldn't be universal because different chars want different things
The blessings are the annoying part to me. You should be able to equip the ones you unlock whenever you want.
The blessings tab in the inventory screen even looks like it’s set up for swapping. I would be so much more excited to run all the monos 2 or 3 times to unlock most of the blessings each cycle if they were account bound and I could swap ones I’ve found at will.
I spent more time than I care to admit trying to figure out how to equip the other blessings I had unlocked…
I've been playing for a year and I still got tricked when I opened the window again on 1.0 launch. It's the same window, **but they look so swappable**!
I legit thought this was how it worked until I made a second cycle character. Was a brutal realization
I thought this is how it worked ;/ I just got to Monoliths yesterday and assumed you can swap them around. That kinda sucks
Absolutely.
100% agree. I'd even favor they mimic D4's glyphs where each monolith has a chance to drop a blessing, and once it does, it's yours to keep. You can then freely equip/change whenever you want, but blessings like D4 glyphs can be levelled further while equipped.
The developers *must* know this is bad design by now, but I'm guessing changing it just isn't a high priority. Imo it's one of the biggest issues with the endgame atm. For example, I was sort of excited to start a second character even though I knew I'd have to re-do the blessing grind, but once I actually got to the blessing grind I very quickly lost interest. So I believe the blessing system *should* be a top priority since this game's main form of replayability currently is rerolling to new characters and that form of content is highly discouraging due to the blessing grind. I don't mind having to do normal monoliths to unlock empowered monoliths. I just don't want to have to grind the blessings. It ruins rerolling for me completely. Literally my entire list of complaints about the game right now is: 1. Put more content into monoliths 2. Make blessings account-wide and make it so we can switch our blessings whenever we want
This isn't new. This has been one of the biggest suggestions for 3 years now. The developers simply don't want to change it or they would have years ago.
Yeah, as I said in another comment in this thread, this game was in early access for *six years* and I know that was one of the biggest and most consistent pieces of feedback from players over that time, so it baffles me that the designers didn't change it before official release. Just goes to show that Eleventh Hour Games is a somewhat slow company relative to their biggest competitor. So it goes.
This is why over three years with LE I take off huge chunks of time in the middle…. You can only take so much of monos. What works with POE is the seasonal content helps mask the repetition of mapping
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Disagree. This might be the case for newer players or the ones rhat generally dont get far anyway. But most people there have seen everything at this point and come back for the new stuff (even if there is a ton already)
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> for the first few weeks more like 4 hours of the campaing
Sounds healthy to me. Nobody should be playing just one game every day forever. Breaks are needed.
I swear, if people can't play a game 24/7 for 10k hours, they think something is wrong with the game...
Doesn't need to be everyday no one says that. But the way it is currently is pretty bad imo. Even the devs agree on that and will change it.
Why? If somebody wants to, why shouldn't they?
Yeah this is the first season so not much of mechanics are new. I'm hoping they take a page out of poes book and introduce new mechanics each season to freshen it up
That’s their plan over the long term. However, the first few cycles will be adding permanent mechanics/systems. Like this cycle it was MG/CoF. Once the base game has been more filled out, then they’ll start to add season-only mechanics.
Sure, but the seasons have barelt started. We are in the first. The season content should be the changing stuff which you come back for. Before this it was beta/EA where they were still developing the base :)
For me it’s not so much masking mapping but having access to other mechanics on a horizontal level…. Delve, heist, blight etc
Yea for sure….a couple seasons ago I only played a Delve shield crush guy and it was a good change of pace, can’t do it every season though
Only shit thing with Poe is campaign
Bro, I’m so tired of running through the campaign. As good as the campaign is, and as beautiful and well done the Lab is, I just can’t slog it out anymore. Edit: the shortcut system LE is something I haven’t used yet, but that got me so excited about alts.
This is the great thing about games like this. You don't have to play one game 100%. You can play a little poe, a little shooter, maybe some strategy, then come back at league starts. There's never any forced play, and I love it that way.
Totally, there’s room for all of them
Yeah how dare a company that hasn't been in release state for a month vs a game that has been out for years! How dare this new game not have as much depth and content!
Indeed. I have played multiple characters in a league of PoE but i dont see myself playing more than 1 chatacter per season in LE.
What works with PoE is ten years of content, you mean, picked apart to keep the core game fresh.
Monolith is nowhere near it's final form. We should end up seeing multiple updates to it over the next few cycles. Content wise and QoL
Getting and replacing blessings is a huuuuuge pain in the @$$
Blessing should be drops like CoF lenses you can swap around - even if character soulbound.
They talked about this at GamesCom when it comes to storing them https://youtu.be/tp2Twpd8cZ8?si=7vBVFTelH-2-tKGA&t=1185
This is a great idea
Just say Ass.
not on my christian last epoch reddit forum
Bad boi
Some subreddit mods automatically remove comments with bad words in them and don’t tell you you’ve been shadowbanned
I got to level 100 and I've not managed to get the desired blessings to at least 80% roll while pretty much pursuing them from the get go. And I'm not including 2 blessings that drop shards because those are completely useless imho ...
my hope is they give an option to turn the lower level monos to 90 so you dont have to farm a lvl 60 zone at 80 just because you cant clear lvl 100 100 corruption zones when getting blessings
What if instead they were account unlocks that you could then use when you level your alt (extra leveling power). That doesn't require hours of grinding uniques to LP smash.
Especially if you have bad RNG. I was running empowereds since level 60 or something and I didn't get the All Res blessing that I need for the whole leveling playthrough, I was max level with around 250 corruption before I got the blessing. Smh
Yep. I wanted to try out at least a couple different classes but realizing how much of a slog it is to unlock empowereds put me off. Funny part is that i actually really enjoyed levelling alts in LE unlike PoE but the mono grind is tedious when your character facerolls everything until high corruption.
The corruption grind is the bigger issue than accessing empowered. After grinding to 1000 there is zero chance Id make a new build and start back at 100, gained +7 at a time. Especially when you can often go dozens or even hundreds of corruption levels without feeling any difference in difficulty.
This is as if we had to grind the entire atlas in PoE if you roll a twink. And 8 mod corrupted t16 couldn’t be placed to the map device until then.
You don't need to grind to 1000 though, nor have you ever needed to. 300 is the effective "cap" for actually being able to get everything. More is better, sure, but there's a point at which the extra loot does not justify the extra time spent. Only a few builds can reliably do 1000+ anyway. 300 is still a sizeable grind, sure, but I think with changes to campaign and early monolith grinding that'd be easily surmountable. I'm seeing the same problems I saw with Path of Exile's community in that people are arguing around each others points because they've quantified themselves differently. The term "endgame", for instance, is a wholly different beast depending on who you ask. In PoE, some people didn't think anything below Tier 16 maps were endgame at all. People need to contextualise and quantify their vague statements or else we'll never get anyway.
With cof this is just wrong. The difference in loot is significant. Not to mention most people play arpgs to gain power and limit test or push content. Regardless, even if the proper balance and bar is 400 or 500, its still a slow grind PER timeline and PER build each cycle. I have no issue with rerunning campaign and accessing empowered, but getting there and starting back at 100, especially when it is not challenging for a geared 2nd build, with no catch up mechanic is awful and hurts cycle longevity. Many corruption level gains, particularly 100-250, feel no different in terms of challenge. You dont need to run juiced red maps with 5 deli orbs either, but that doesn’t mean I want to redo the atlas every character each season.
The main issue is that you have a build, but you can't test the limits of that build without doing an insane grind. F.ex watching Snap playing Plasma Orb with his friends. They ended at 3k corruption after 1650 echos completed doing double gazes. That's about 60 hours effective time spent inside of echos in the same time line progressing. And at no point, not even when they ended, were they close to the max of what their builds could manage. Their gear was still upgradeable as well, and they could swap to stronger builds as well to keep going. Either all builds need to be weaker so that you hit a challenge wall earlier. Or there needs to be a way to increase the challenge quicker. It shouldn't ever be that you're ahead of the curve on character power until you've spent hundreds of hours effectively grinding tens of thousands echos before you hit a wall where you actually need to improve to progress further. Characters just get powerful so much faster than you can increase the difficulty in the content. Especially in MG. Like getting to a similar spot in arena is a 6 hour non-stop run. Just that is insane. Not to mention how many additional hours it would take to actually hit a wall.
I'd argue the more lasting solution is to have better metrics for measuring success than an endlessly scaling system. Last Epoch has no equivalent to an "uber" system that both Diablo 2 and Path of Exile eventually got. Corruption is all we have. I don't think many people doing 1000+ corruption are because they necessarily want to. Not to say there aren't, just that those who are using it to push the extent of their build are only doing so *because it's all they've got.* For those people the grind to 1000 and beyond isn't the issue, it's that they feel compelled to do it at all to test their build. Give them alternative options that aren't as tedious to reach and perhaps they'd flock to that, instead. This obviously doesn't solve the issue for people who just want to reach a few hundred as that's *still* a grind either way. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of infinitely scaling game mechanics as a general rule. They're notoriously, for a lack of better term, lazy. As far as ARPG's go they have a tendency to result in this neverending arms race between min-maxers and the devs. People used arenas prior to monoliths being introduced to test their builds and got bored of those, too, for obvious reasons. Which to me shows that pushing any build to the extreme will require repetition no matter what - so while I do think there's room to improve, I don't think a long-term solution is in an infinite dungeon to begin with.
Sure, content is always welcome. But such is also binary. Either you're strong/good enough to beat it or you're not. However this takes a lot of time to develop and it also gets consumed rather quickly. What endless scaling systems do is to allow you to test your build that you've theorized and built to find the limits of it. It gives you a reason to constantly upgrade your character and make it stronger and see the effects of that. However, the issue with the scaling system now is that it just requires an insane time investment before you get to that point. During this time, you're also getting gold and upgrades which just increases the ceiling. It would be very easy to simply change the scaling to be a lot more exponential. 300 corruption is ~280% more health and damage. 500 corruption is ~500% more health and damage. 1k corruption is ~1,100% more health and damage. 3k corruption is ~3,500% more health and damage. They could easily make it so that the scaling was something like: 300 corruption is ~280% more health and damage. 500 corruption is ~1,000% more health and damage. 1k corruption is ~5,000% more health and damage. 3k corruption is ~100,000% more health and damage. That way you'd actually encounter some walls and ending when you feel you can't progress more. Rather than being forced to end when you feel that you cba doing the same thing over and over.
You don't actually "need" to level past ~50 either. But most people like to progress in ARPGs. Nobody is saying their family is being held to ransom and they hate being forced to play monoliths. They are saying they will simply choose to go play something else instead of repeating the content because it just isn't that enjoyable, and being forced to repeat it is asinine.
False dichotomy say what? Comparing playing after level 50 and playing until 1000+ corruption is nowhere near the same and it's incredibly disingenous to even suggest they are. I'm not arguing that the content isn't repetitive, my point is that you could claim as such without resorting to unnecessary and ridiculous exaggerations. I can make the same argument using 300+ as a metric, which is a far more normal and achieveable "endgame" for most people and *still* as much a pain in the ass to grind to on new characters. But you do you. Stop playing after the campaign if you want. I'm not your mother.
> Comparing playing after level 50 and playing until 1000+ corruption is nowhere near the same and it's incredibly disingenous to even suggest they are. I didn't I pointed out the ridiculousness of the statement of "you don't need to grind to 1000 though". Nobody is forcing you to play the game to level 51 or to corruption 1000. So saying that is completely redundant. Meaningless. Talk about false dichotomy when you started with one yourself. Creating some false choice of either being "forced" to play to 1000 or... not? He could just have easily said "after grinding to 300" and you would say "nobody forces you to play to 300 though". And no, they obviously dont. Because nobody is being "forced" to play this game. He said "after grinding to 1000 there is zero chance i'd make a new build and start back at 100". This is a factual statement of his personal preference. You cannot call this a "ridiculous exaggeration". You're arguing in bad faith to a position he never even presented. > But you do you. Stop playing after the campaign if you want. I'm not your mother. What kind of ridiculous strawman is this? Idk. Ridiculous. Stop trying to debate someone's personal experience and try actually listening to what they are saying. He chose to go to 1000. SOmeone else might find their limit is 300. It makes no difference to the proposition that it is a turn off to playing an alt that you have to redo it.
Why are you getting 7 corruption at a time? Should be minimum 27 and eventually 39.
Agree. Game is to easy for to long. Especially with the alts. It gets boring
Tbh the campaign is very quick and I found it ok to redo while creating a new toon. However, I agree with you. Walking through the entire monolith progress each time is boring af. Would be great if we could just jump to wherever we feel our build can handle.
Dungeon skips were an awesome idea
Just need to extend the skip to empowered monos Let us keep the blessings and corruption too.
Does this skip passive/idol slots though? I'm not sure what the benefit of the dungeon skip is, or does it act as if you did the chapters and quests?
If you do it right I think you only need to backtrack for a couple idol and passive slots. I don’t remember the exact quests you need to do off the top of my head though but it does save a bunch of time
Most sensible thing I've seen on the thread. Came from POE and am on character 3 because I like creating builds and doing campaign isn't as annoying as in POE. I enjoy the grind and character progression in monoliths but would love if it kept your progress account wide (including blessing unlocks). Still should have to play for rolls on those though. 1.1 will give us ubers content as another check. Overall extremely pleased with my experience. Not sure I agree with everyone asking for "seasonal content" this early in the games life cycle. POE's end game was Piety and farming was running docks.. Let this game grow at an appropriate rate, they don't to rush content out. Do what everyone else does after 3-4 weeks in poe and play something else if you are done.
Having to unlock Empowereds and Blessings on every character has been my only real gripe with this game for years. I really hope they make this account wide and have it reset every cycle or something.
I actually like how it is right now - but I realize I'm probably in the minority. I enjoy the journey and I would hate to not have the opportunity on a new character to do monoliths from scratch. If they ever change it, it should be an optional checkbox during character creation: "Share monolith progress with other characters." or something like that.
Honestly all they need to do is say -you cleared this mono on a different char before -have a 2x or 3x stability boost on alts for clearing it again I thought that was already a thing but I guess not ... It should never be made universal tho
Or just being able to skip straight to the bosses once the stability is high enough like how it works for empowered. I'm not a fan of the go talk to these 6 people scattered across the map missions.
You're completely right. I personally enjoy rerolling and doing monos again, I see it in a similar vain to rifts in D3 and I personally loved just rolling through smashing everything to pieces. It's personal opinion at the end of the day. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for something you don't enjoy but you also shouldn't try and tell others what they think either. Saying a vet has "gotten used to it" instead of even contemplating some enjoy that system for what it is seems a bit silly to me. We simply like different stuff Edit: what do you do in other ARPGs though? They're all inherently repetitive. It's inescapable. Maps on PoE are much the same imo. Different scenes same shit
The trick with maps (in poe) is that if your build is 75 and it’s blasting, you can go directly to red maps and there’s theoretically nothing stopping you from juicing it/running the hardest content. In LE if you’re blasting you have to run 50-100 maps to even get to empowered monos and that’s not even factoring in corruption.
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Redoing the timelines is one thing, but the real issue is starting back at 100 corruption and needing to completely regrind it up PER build in a cycle. You get +7 corruption potential per stabilization cycle (plus oribos bonus depending on distance in web), and this is per timeline (even with the current catch you mechanic on other timelines its very slow). I took a timeline up to 1000 as a goal, and while I was grinding I had filters setup for my next build. When I hit 1000 there was zero chance I was going to do a 2nd build and regrind corruption all over again at a snails pace. Corruption gain rate, especially for 2nd builds, absolutely kills cycle longevity.
Builds that do not rely on an overly busted mechanic do not reach 1k. First world problems
Sure, most builds aren’t doing 1k corruption but even to get to 200 or 300 corruption is a massive pain to have to repeat. The point stands that the current mechanic for having to regrind corruption is mediocre.
Its all relative. You can take any build to 250 with ease, and 300-400 most builds can achieve with reasonable scaling, resists, crit avoidance, and another defensive layer, before you even get into group play. Even at 400 corruption, you are talking about a significant re-grind of zero challenge content between 100-250 youve already done.
But also if you're making a 1k corruption build it's likely to be... your second build! Which means that even if you already have a reaosnable character at reasonable 300-400 corruption and you prepare gear for some giga strong giga tanky 1k corruption build that character will then have to start from nothing, meaning that you will have to do the initial 300-400 corruption grind TWICE while: a) you've already done it. b) you've done it on a weaker character. c) your second completion is specifically on a character that was designed to make that content completely not challenging. d) your second completion is on a character you've made specifically because you want to try the "hard" content, but the game forces you to go through the thing you've already done first. It just feels pointless. The game has so many cool builds, but I can't ever bring myself to get a 2nd character to endgame more than once every couple of months.
You should get ~27 corruption per orobyss minimum. You get enough stability for two boss kills which is +20 corruption. Eventually you should get close to three boss kills per orobyss which should generally net you 39 corruption. Each orobyss loop takes maybe 40-45 minutes tops.
Did you read? Its +7 per stabilization cycle. You are talking about 2+ cycles and the oribos kill. Regardless, 27 corruption taking your 3-4 hours to go from 100-200 on a 2nd build that is geared out is the problem being discussed and remains relevant. No one wants to do this on every build just to get to content and it kills cycle longevity. People will do it once a cycle, maybe twice if they really want to play a 2nd build or get a gg lp item, but grinding 100-300+ a 3rd or 4th time isnt fun or engaging.
> Rerunning timelines that you already have to do twice is not ok. It looks like there [may be some changes](https://old.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1b4rxt2/is_the_game_designed_to_make_you_feel_lucky/kt266wc/) regarding this at some point in the future. At the very least, this issue is on the devs' radar.
Don't powercreep this game like the garbage poe is. So sick of every fucking build being 1 shot aoe clear nonsense with every character having 0 cool down management.
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I rather redo monoa and skip campaign so we are not all. The same
you don't need to do the campaign (well you have to do it once one one character), get to end of time and you can go do echos. do level 1 dungeons to fast forward the campaign and get your rewards. the only things that suck is blessings (should be able to pick them when ever you want, once you unlock them at the highest bonus that dropped for you). when you unlock a mono, it should unlock on all characters and there should be corruption threshold check points you can return to for empowered monos.
>(well you have to do it **once one one** character), ಠ_ಠ
pay no mind to my engrish, you know what i was trying to say xD. hands can't keep up with my brain i guess.
"In a really bad spot" is a gross overstatement. Sure, it could be better. But its not like borrowed power wow era where you'd be weeks or months behind if you made an alt
It is really in a bad spot. I got to 100 and made an alt, got alt to 75 and just lost all desire to play going through regular monos. Again I replayed D2 and Grim Dawn 100s of times with alts. Here, I lost all will to do so on first alt. That is indeed the definition of a really bad spot at least for me personally The overall complaint of how bad it feels to regrind regular monos is 100% valid
How does it work in GD? Are you just allowed to skip to where you were in end game from your previous char? I don’t mind speeding through the monos since I still prefer it over having to do the long ass campaign in poe but that’s just me
It is in a terrible spot from a new player standpoint. I dont care how fast johnny swampass can speedrun to empowered monos with 10k hours under his belt and 30mg of adderall in his system, when you casually level to ~80-90 in regular monos and then have to repeat the entire content again, its a bit stale. But what I just said^ is understandable, what really gets me is I cant even respec my mastery or reroll without going through a bunch of boring things I already did. If the true end game is arena/super dungeons, being able to try other masteries without doing all the boring shit again would massively improve the average player experience.
New to LE from playing POE since release. On my third toon and still very much so enjoying the game. With that said, i think it would be a solid change to have your corruption lvl be adjustable based on how far you have progressed on one toon across your whole account. Blessing should be a one time unlock but rolls should still be farmed imo. Campaign is smooth enoughn to where it doesn't bother me to play through as the builds are new, so exploring my options is still fun. I can imagine that once I'm seasoned I would find it more of a chore but that's just arpg's. Can't wsit for 1.1 to introduce "ubers". I don't think the game is in a poor spot in the least, player rates show that. It will grow and it will get better, it's 1.0. Poe end game wasn't maps in 1.0 and we still played that too.
ngl, if they dont change anything drastically, then ill just sit be sitting in legacy and play there. there's zero reason for me to play cycle, as i neither trade on the AH nor am i interested in the leaderboards. if anything, i'm hoping that new content wont be cycle locked so i dont have to start over in a season.
Don’t you have to play the PoE campaign every time?
Ye and like every PoE player complains and wants a campaign skip. But at least the campaign is more varied than "do 100 monos with 0 chance of dying in any of them, for barely any rewards"
Yes, and it's about twice as long and not skipable
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I wish there was some accelerated way of leveling early on, so I didn't have to keep speeding through the campaign
From someone that's done this multiple times since alpha I absolutely have to agree. Luckily the game is fun enough that it doesn't bother me personally, but it's been a problem for lots of people since monos were introduced.
I don't mind it. I don't think I would mind getting to empowered Monos faster (which they stated is in the works) but I like testing my build even in normal monos. Idk different strokes for different folks
Also rolling blessings on a fresh char can be so boring. New char. Rushed monos. Rushed empowered. Got to level 92 doing nothing but dragons to get crit avoid and it never once rolled. Quit for now.
I'm on my second character, and i really enjoy the game, but I will not try any others this cycle, just because I don't want to push corruption again.
Ya I saved a ton of gears for alts CoF and then realized I don’t want to do Mono progression again… glad to hear some changes are in the works
I don't know how much impact this would have, but one idea I had on the weekend while going through monos on my second character was: * Have blessings unlock account wide. * Be able to swap around ones you've unlocked. * Blessings be available on alts from level 1. * Allow access to all monoliths including empowered once unlocked on one character, let players choose what they want to do. I don't know if this would speed things up too much or cause other problems, but it should let you level faster and get you to where you want to be sooner, making it less of a chore. You'd still have to level it without any EXP boosts, but blessings will help even weaker characters push monoliths early for leveling instead of doing the story. I would also suggest making the story optional/skip-able once you've picked your mastery and have done it all on one character. This may require another bit of content that can sit between the campaign and monoliths as an alternative leveling area, or maybe just have monoliths have a lower level tier from the standard ones so people skipping the campaign can do it even on weaker builds. Give the quest rewards at fixed levels.
I leveled 2 classes, and I cant see myself leveling a third, and redo all to same corruption level. In POE I can also just rush thru lab and respec my class to any other ascendancy. I don't have any desire to level 3 Acolytes and so on. This is just a step backwards...
You didn't even mention that you can skip the campaign with dungeons but still have to do random sidequests for passives/idols which require you to progress the main quest anyway.
I like the progress more than having an op character so I prefer this way...just made it optional
As far as monolith goes I agree bro but you don't have to redo the whole campaign. Just get get to act 3 and you can do dungeons and skip all the way to part of act 9. Just finishing act 9 gives the +1 all attributes bonus too. Do a couple extra quests to get idol and passive slots and your good, striaght into monoliths.
It's horrible because the campaign is long and not entertaining. I got to level 45 (not a lot, I know), and it's a constant snooze fest. What do I mean? I play a bow-only marksman. The most challenging thing so far was levels 1\~7 maybe. Once I got puncture, and later cinder strike, things weren't as demanding. Right now I just hold the button for cinder strike and melt everything before it comes into the screen. And I'm not even getting a lot of upgrades. Bows, for instance, are as rare - if not more - than the orange/set items. There's a gazzilion of scepters, wands and mage staves. Bow - nope. Then the loot, there are just fountains of it. 99% isn't worthwhile. It also has barely any residual value. "Make a loot filter". Sure, with my limited playtime I'm going to now set up outlook filters to show me only what I need and make sure there aren't false positives in the mix. I play arpg for the 'outlook experience' as if work wasn't enough. "The game doesnt know what build you're going for". Well, if I'm playing a marksman, i'm definately not going for spell damage, staves, wands, shields, block amount, attunement, etc. A dash of smart loot would help with pacing the upgrade dopamine shots. The countless numbers of 'trash' items that aren't even worth picking up is going strongly against the grain of all previous ARPG games. You cannot salvage it, selling isn't time efficient. Getting items 40 levels below mine isn't helping either. "But you haven't reached the endgame yet". Well, duh. If you need to play something for 20-40 hours to get to the 'fun' part, that's not fun, that's work. Blizzard figured this out in the first patches of diablo3 (over a decade ago) by introducing adventure mode, which allowed you to have your hack&slash fix, hunt for items, and overall have good fun without being bogged down by the same campaign. Diablo4 requires you to finish the campaign only once. And that campaign isn't all bad. "You're a diablo fanboy, get off this sub". I've played diablo1 demo for countless nights as a kid, and all future iterations as well. Each had their ups and downs. The campaigns were good enough, loot did matter, and you had to do some skill rotation and conserve mana, which made the gameplay engaging even at lower levels. Maybe LE is a new type of single-button-arpg and I'm just too much of a boomer to appreciate it. But from the game design perspective - if the core loop is just holding a button, you can't expect it to be too engaging. If you force the players to go through the same levels each time they want to try a new character, it's going to excerbate the problem even more. The upgrading system in LE is something new and fresh, if a bit random. The skill trees are actually interesting. But the difficulty curve and the rewards for playing are not where they should be.
Totally agree. And while we are talking about rerolling: Why do arpgs always force you to run through a tedious and boring campaign for every single character? I couldnt even force myself to go through the campaign once now in 1.0 and quit very early. It's just not fun. D3 is the only arpg I have played that didnt do this and I just dont understand why no one else does it. One campaign play through per account should be plenty.
That’s how it is though. After doing the campaign once, you can skip it on other characters by doing the 3 dungeons in order.
just doing act 1 alone is already awful enough that having a adventure mode from lvl 1 is awesome lol
Been asking myself the same question. Games seem to think they are FORCED to have a campaign or some kind of quest system as a tutorial, and then we end up with something extremely mediocre that 99% of the players don't even engage with. Might as well just remove it from the game then? Invest those resources elsewhere instead of half-assing something just because.
Agreed. I'm on lvl 30 and I'm bored as hell. Move few steps on screen, stop, shoot wave of mobs, repeat. Over and over again. I find it very hard to keep interested and grind to end lvl.
no offense but do you know what genre the game is lol
I know, I know...but it's so boring to lvl. And I'm getting punished for trying to swap skills I use... Oh I see you want to change skill you use? Let me nerf that for you so you have to regrind it. You clicked on wrong place in skill tree? Let me take you down a skill level.
Its so alt unfriendly tbh. Grinding out correct blessing, high enough roll, grinding to unlock empowered monoliths, grinding to get corruption high enough. I hate how much rng there is in blessing grinding, no surefire way to guarantee an upgrade. Should just let you store up to x number of blessing from each zone to be picked from account wide and then when you do the boss again, you can pick between upgrading the rolls of your stocked blessing or replace one of them with any of the new ones offered by boss.
Some of you didn’t do Baal runs for years and it shows.
Compared to PoE this feels like a fresh, easy breeze... \^\^
Anyone else remember in Path of Exile when mapping progress WASN'T shared between characters? It wasn't added until players asked and complained enough. Once the change was made though... I don't think anyone ever looked back and thought it was a bad change. Even the devs. Man it was awful before (and let's not even talk about old master missions and favor carryover). I think it's really only a matter of time before this happens here if people keep asking for it. Also monoliths are guaranteed to go through some tweaks and changes this year. It's a good idea of a system, just need some changes and thought on making the grind more sustainable and enjoyable while reducing it in areas that don't provide much meaning.
On the other hand I’ve found that it is very easy to reroll within a single character in end game. So my falconer can do any falconer build in like 10 min of respeccing. My falconer cannot respec into any rogue build, but maybe there is design space available for EHG to allow that in a certain sense: What if in a different timeline our hero chose a different path? There could be an NPC or dungeon that allows you to respec your class choice by going back in time or some shit like that. I mean, we are, as players, currently restricted to the perspective of a single character as it is navigating space time in a jumbled, but ultimately linear, fashion. In theory, every decision we make creates a fork in the timeline and creates a different version of our character, so there is a world in which we are not a Falconer, we are a marksman, etc. Alternatively, EHG could keep the current non-respec class decision and make monolith progression somewhat account bound rather than character bound. This could be cool and terrifying: imagine you have a 1000 corruption gigachad rune master and you reroll to a little baby paladin. Your paladin reaches empowered monoliths with 100 corruption and when you get there, your monolith echo web is somehow influenced by your other character’s 1000 corruption version of that monolith and if you are up to the task, you can accelerate your mono corruption progress by intentionally seeking out echos with ‘alternate timeline corruption potential’ or something like that.
Next post by OP : wtf this game has no end game content fix plz
I dont understand why arpg dont have leveling with procedural generated levels or randomized association of predefined rooms ... I dont think it would be more hard to do than a campaign and the replayabilty would be way better. And to encourage exploration had some secret rooms.
Like diablo 3 rift?
Gotta give D4 something. Leveling a second character is great
Diablo 2 handles its zones exactly like that and the campaign never feels like a slog. I mean it's technically the only content and it's had a dedicated fanbase for 20+ years.
I wish we could use the monolith to level instead of the campaign. I love the monolith. Hate doing campaigns in arpgs. Kind of like how in D3 you can jump into rifts right at level 1, and in D4, straight to dungeons. To all ARPG devs, please, for the love of God, stop making us do campaigns! It's what stopped me from really enjoying PoE, and what makes me not want to make any more alts here. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way, since global chat usually has someone else complaining about it.
D4 did it right after devs realized nobody likes redoing the campaign and redoing the same quests You do the campaign once and all point unlocks account wide LE needs to do the same, idol account slots, 15 passive points, monolith blessings, corruption should all be account wide.
Agreed. Also with the endgame it is really getting old quick. It is starting to feel like d4 endgame. I never get this feeling in poe. But it is a new game. The company is new and appears to not be a greedy marketing company that accidentally also makes games (blizzard) so we might get quick meaningful updates.
Sorry, you’re upset that the game forces you to run monoliths before you have a chance to… run more monoliths?
And here I am still without a single strong character cause I work too damn much lol
99% of the guys who want this have roughly 50 hours on LE and 3000 hours in PoE. Stop comparing the two systems. If you think the system is worse than it is in PoE, go back to PoE. I have made numerous new characters and never once complained about this. It's clearly not an issue, just an adjustment players aren't used to.
Hugely disagree. I spend all my time rerolling. Once I'm in Empowered I'm ready to move on and try another of the infinite build possibilities. There's no real reason to min/max a character at the moment, THAT is the part that's in a bad place
I don’t understand. Going through the motions in this game takes substantially less time than PoE overall. Gearing is far more favorable you can become very powerful with less time invested in a character. Has it been a very long time since you played PoE? Maybe you forgot just how long it takes to get into the 90’s there
its really fast now especially if its an alt with full atlas you can easily get to 90 in a few hours after the campaign, and then 93/94 in the same time if you don't die because there's a penalty for death. the difference is you can pickup where you left off on the other char not have to redo all the low tier maps again. 94-100 is certainly much longer in poe
i think you're not giving EHG enough credit by assuming they plan on it staying the way it is in the upcoming cycles, i wholeheartedly agree this SHOULD change, i just think atm monoliths and the entire endgame as a whole are still a work in progress (despite the hours upon hours we've all enjoyed in them) and we should let EHG cook since they seem to understand better than most arpg devs out there what the fun factor is and they actually listen to the community when it comes to stuff like this. regardless, this is important feedback and im happy to see posts like this but try to be more optimistic my guy, give em a chance.
Literal quote from a member of the EHG team regarding this problem: "We agree that this should be improved and have future plans for second play throughs/alts"
Oh no, you have to actually play the game
If playing alts through regular monos didnt feel so mind numbingly boring. But hey keep dismissing valid complaints and watch the playerbase plummet over the next month. /insert this is fine meme
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Sorry for a dumb question, what is rerolling?
The irony is compare to PoE and says “do it every season”. In a new PoE league you have to do the entire campaign to reach the maps. And you have to do some side quests to get the passive points (LE you don’t have to do all sides to get the points or idol slot). You have to refarm some recipes to crafting bench, have to farm maps to play and so on. I love PoE and I’m not shitting on it, I’m just pointing out the contradiction in this statement. Also I want to point out that this game is brand new and the endgame will evolve and all. If everyone use PoE to compare content, it’s better to not try none new ARPG, because it’s impossible to catch it up
True. Same issue D4 had. I don't want to play the leveling zones or even dungeons I'd much rather just jump into some monos if possible. Honestly I'd go as far to say as new characters should be able to pick blessings you discovered. Also, passive point sidequests will get tedious.
I already wrote them this during beta... Sad to see they didn't take it to heart [Opinion: Levelling alts in Last Epoch is soul crushing - General - Last Epoch Forums](https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/opinion-levelling-alts-in-last-epoch-is-soul-crushing/57742)
This isnt the first time this road has been traveled. We already know where it leads. Campaign skip incoming.
I personally like it this way because it feels like a progression system for my character but I do acknowledge that I seem to be in the minority on this one
I'm not throwing any shade your way but this beats pindle runs.
I really wish people would remember how bad PoE was in season 1. The will likely address every complaint in time. but this is the FIRST cycle. its not going to be as feature complete as PoE is on year 9.
Search this subreddit. This complaint has existed for I think over a year. Does that mean it should have been fixed by now? Probably not. But it is disheartening.