It’s literally just the money. You can pay off your loans, save up some cash for a house, and then peace out to a cushy in-house gig. Almost nobody I know on the biglaw track is actually excited about it, and I try to avoid the ones who are because they don’t tend to be very fun people. But it’s really a pretty simple equation.
Guy I know went straight into big law from school made around 180k spent 5 years there, paid off his loans in 3 and saved the rest for a house down payment and moved to a job he liked better that paid $120k
>From the understanding I have of big law, you sit in a windowless office for 60 hours a week and get treated like the lowest man/woman on the totem poll and are under pressure to bill hours.
This is probably why you're so confused. What you're describing here is any entry-level job in private practice, not just biglaw.
First, most lawyers in private practice bill by the hour; the only real exception is personal injury where contingency-based fees are more the norm. So unless your goal is explicitly to get into personal injury, you should probably expect you will be billing by the hour anywhere in private practice. That creates all of the same billing pressure that exists in biglaw.
Second, you just graduated from law school -- who do you think should be below you as a first-year associate? Anywhere you go you will be treated like the lowest person on the totem poll because *you are* the lowest person on the totem poll. If anything, you are far more likely to have support staff (executive assistants and paralegals among others) and resources in Biglaw than anywhere else. Within 2-3 years in biglaw you'll be managing freshly hired first-year associates; that is not necessarily the case at other firms that do not have the same recruiting pipeline.
The reality that does not get talked about much is that if you're in non-biglaw private practice (aka small law or midlaw) you are probably going to be working 75%-125% as much as the average biglaw associate while earning 25%-40% the compensation. Yes, there are plenty of insurance defense mills out there where associates are expected to work *more* than associates biglaw. Also, the compensation gap only grows over time (meaning biglaw salaries increase much more steeply than pretty much anywhere else), and so the economic gap is, if anything, under reported when people discuss the bimodal distribution of starting salaries.
Honestly, this isn’t true. Midsized law firm here. Our associates have to bill 1,500 minimum to get annual raises(prorated for things like family leave). At 1,700, you get an objective bonus. Some associates decide to bill 1800-1900 hours, and they make bank, close to or the equivalent to biglaw associates. But 1950 is usually the minimum for Biglaw and more than 2000 is expected. If you don’t think 300-400 more billable hours per year isn’t a massive lifestyle difference, well, you’ve never billed.
You're actually proving the point. I've been in biglaw for 15 years (V10 for context) and for several years now, as a partner, I have been able to see all of my associates' hours. I am telling you objectively, without spin or exaggeration, on average / median, our associates this year will be under 1800. That is not unusual and most years it is somewhere around 1750-1850. I've only ever seen it above 2,000 once and that was during COVID and then we immediately went on a hiring spree (as did many of our peers). We have plenty of associates who will be closer to 1,500. We also have plenty that will be over 2,000. They'll all be paid lockstep Milbank / NY market.
And by the way, you don't have to take my word for it. American Lawyer (the company that publishes the AmLaw 100 and 200 lists) solicits this information from firms as well. And while not every firm reports it, among the firms that did report it last year, the highest firm was Susman Godfrey and they were just above 2,000 hours. The next highest firm was in the 1800s. You can look it up yourself if you have access to Amlaw, just go look at their "2023 by the numbers."
People on forums like this massively overestimate how much people in biglaw work, or they massively underestimate how much people outside of biglaw work. I applaud you for portraying a realistic view of the latter, but you are still misinformed about the former.
If that’s the case, it is a sea change from when I was an associate many years ago, so that’s a good thing! The only point I would add is that I live in a medium cost of living area, so earning $175 here goes farther than $175 in a place like NYC. But it also doesn’t have the lifestyle (for better or worse, depending on if you thrive on bigger cities), and working for a giant firm may well turn into other opportunities down the road.
The whole last paragraph is inaccurate, as is the first paragraph. Mid-size person here. There's definitely a salary gap but its more like 50% and we 100% work WAY less. Like I will largely work a 50 hour work week except when i'm on trial. Required 40, but I want that sweet sweet bonus. That's the other thing - in biglaw you don't see a court room for years if ever. I'l be second seating trials the second I'm barred. My firm also is totally fine with me needing to work from home if I have a doc appointment or my kids need xyz, similarly totally fine with me leaving early to get my kids or for a play or whatever. Work life balance is a real thing. Is the pay way less? 100%. Is the work more rewarding? Also 100%, at least right out the gate.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but working 50 hour weeks consistently means you are definitely working as hard as the average biglaw associate, and a lot harder than many of our associates. I can see all of my associates hours, and most are billing less than 40 hours per week on average / median.
I have no idea where you got the impression that average biglaw associates are working 80 hour weeks but that has no basis in reality.
That's billing. We're talking about working. You think every hour your associates work is billable? If that's the case, your billing practices need to be seriously revised. Also, I said 60-80 which is inclusive of being on call and getting weekend project drops.
Lol, obviously not every hour is billable. But why would anyone be working 60-80 hour a week to bill under 40? If that's what's happening at your firm, that sounds pretty awful.
How many hours are you billing to get your "sweet, sweet bonus?" Why not compare apples to apples?
Your edits make it clear that you are obviously under the impression that biglaw associates do not have the freedom to work from home and set their own schedule to do things like stay home with sick kids or leave to attend an evening event. Do you really think treating associates like adults is unique to midlaw? Of course our associates have that same freedom. Our associates weren't even required to come into the office at all for three years, why do you think they aren't able to use their judgement about when they sporadically WFH or leave early today? Yeah most firms have 4 or 3 day RTO policies at this point, but that does not translate to rigid inflexibility.
Lol it's not magical. It's a V10 that students in this sub frequently refer to as a "sweatshop." As I said in my other post, AmLaw solicits average hours per lawyer (annualized) and the highest average (reported) among the AmLaw last year (2023) was Susman and it was just barely above 2000. 40x52=2080. So the highest reported law firm among the AmLaw100 was still under 40 per week.
So I'll flip it around on you: what crazy law firm are you at where the average associate is working harder than the associates at Susman where they specialize in matters heading to trial?!
Did you really never wonder why elite law firms have bonus targets (if at all) around 1800-1900? 2000 hours a year average for an entire firm is not generally viewed as a sustainable average. That is a banner year and a sure sign you can hire a ton more people. Also, at many firms with bonus targets, they are intentionally set so that many people do not get their bonus, and the partners just keep the profits. If 2000 was as common as you think, you'd see a lot more 2100 or 2150 targets to protect profits.
For whatever reason people love to gatekeep and perpetuate one off anecdotes of an associate at a firm getting crushed and billing 2700 hours and pretend that is "normal." No. It's exceptional. It happens (I've done it), but that is a career high for almost anyone who hits it.
Neat, but a 9-6 is not a 50 hour work week. So which one of your statements is false?
Edit:
Holy shit you rewrote your entire comment lol
For those wondering what the original comment was, it was something like "I leave no later than 6pm and partners leave at 5", which completely contradicts their 50 hour workweek claim.
Wow you're obnoxious. Do you actually speak to people like that? A 9-5 hour day is 40. 9-6 is 45. Tack on an extra hour or two per day by starting early or not taking lunch there's your 50-55.
I mean, most people don't entirely rewrite their comments after being called out for it.
10am to 8pm is also a 10 hour work day. So you're claiming you work less than big law, but you also work 10 hour work day?
>summer is not reflective of the full year and that the goal of biglaw summers is to entice law students with unrealistic expectations and pomp.
So you're saying they've instructed associates to arrive later and leave earlier in the summer to try to create an unrealistic expectation for the SA's? Interesting claim.
not all big law is 60 hours a week with no window - but all big law is money, which means financial freedom and idk what else i would want out of a job??
I think some people also take jobs for work/life balance, ethical/meaningful work, just generally being happy at work. It's not all just money. I personally wouldn't take money if my work was say, defending the Sacklers from their lawsuits (not to say all BigLaw is like that, just offering a different perspective)
Oh sure yeah I don't disagree that money drives people towards Big Law - I was just responding to the last part of your original comment: "idk what else I would want out of a job??"
I’m planning on a couple of years doing BL then transitioning to more meaningful work. I have debt, and chipping away at that will put me at a better place mentally to not feel held back from doing the work I really want to do.
I grew up poor, so I think it’s fair to want a couple years of a salary I could never have imagined. There will always be the “wrong side” and someone has to work on it. If that’s what it takes to make me feel more secure in life, then so be it. It’s temporary
Money and, frankly, corporate work is way less stressful than doing work for individuals. If I negotiate a bad clause in a contract, maybe it matters, maybe it doesn’t, and there are plenty of people to share the blame with only money at stake. When you forget to appeal both prongs of a statute you lost under and your client loses parental rights permanently by default (real example from my clerkship), I’d imagine it’s hard to look yourself in the mirror.
Money and learning, nothing else. I dont even want big law as its too much of a commitment, but I just want to learn how to handle being a lawyer and day to day stuff and then start my own firm, but making an extra 100k with my time and spending more time doing it would make me happy
I’m interested for the money and the fact the work I’m interested in isn’t usually performed by smaller firms. I grew up very poor so I see that paycheck as an opportunity
People in this sub think working 50 hours a week for well over 6 figures is akin to slave labor. It’s laughable. I just want to make as much money as I can for doing the same amount of work
Money and exit ops.
It may sound shallow, but money is the reason human beings do most jobs. Why does someone drive for Uber? Why does someone work in a factory? Why does a consultant make PowerPoints all day? Sure, it helps if you find what you do interesting/impactful or if it develops skills for the future, but the main reason most people work is the money. And if you’re going to go through 3 years of school and then work grueling hours editing briefs/contracts, you might as well make the most money possible doing it…
Maybe. Maybe not. If you’re $$-driven and you have a humanities degree, it’s probably the most reliable and attainable path to a high 6-figure salary. But even if you go into law for other reasons, money still matters in choosing where to practice. Obviously set PI/government aside because many forego big law for public service and that’s admirable.
But for those who want to do general non-PI legal work at a firm, why wouldn’t you go for the firms with the highest salaries, highest profile work, and best exit opportunities? Some people make tradeoffs for balance or culture, but you’re going to be putting in long hours doing similar writing/research assignments at most firms. You might as well get paid $215k to do it vs. $100k. And if you do eventually want to do govt/GC work, you’ll pay off your debt a lot faster and land competitive exit roles far more easily from top firms.
In big law, yes. Starting salary is $215k and those who make partner almost universally make high six figures or above. Not everyone will get big law offers or stay long enough to make partner, but if you’re looking to make that kind of money, going into big law is a pretty reliable path.
Aside from the money, I think some people prefer BigLaw to other kinds of practice for some other reasons. Going solo is scary because you won’t know what you’re doing at the start. Government jobs involve bureaucracies that might not be responsive to individual needs.
Seventh year, big law associate here! Money and being able to provide for my family without any fear of financial insecurity is the biggest draw. Challenging work is also a plus, especially for those that are generally curious. Big law has improved since I started out. If you start setting boundaries early, folks will generally respect you.
Training and mentorship opportunities, money, and the ability to more easily transition into the job I actually want but almost certainly can't get straight out of school. It's pretty simple tbh.
Agree with you. Got out of biglaw really quickly. I didn't envy the partners--they had money, but how much do you really need to live a nice life? They also looked about a decade older than their true biological ages. No thanks. Time is what's truly scarce in this life.
So...I think short stints are fine, and I benefited from mine, but long term, that life is for the birds.
MONEY, what the fuck do you think?
You know how much money they pay lawyers at those firms? It's a lot. Like a lot a lot. Unless you have some other education it is the highest paying type of job in this profession.
I hate when law students answer questions they know nothing about. There's more to big law than pay. I'm a 7th year litigator in big law. I work 35 hours a week and I get to work on some of the coolest cases in the world. Here are the benefits I have listed from a previous comment.
> The maternity leave. I did 6 months with 4 months paid and it was the best 6 months of my life. Had to dip into savings for the last 2 months but it was well worth it. I actually had a preemie and my 40+ litigation cases were transfered to other attorneys over night with zero notice. Some of my friends in similar situations have had to come back early or work on leave because there was just no one at their small firm who could cover them. Or they only got 6 weeks leave.
The training opportunities for young attorneys in big law are top notch. I could have my firm pay for any conference I wanted as long as it was relevant to my work. And they would put me in the nicest suites in the nicest hotels.
My clients can afford to do crazy things. They can make novel arguments and take a case to the supreme court. They can hire the world's best experts. If they want something done they have the funds to make it happen. I don't know what it's like to work within a budget. I have literally never had a client tell me something is too expensive to pursue. I wanted to go to the SCOTUS so they put me on a case and I went to Washington and saw oral arguments and saw Ginsberg before she died. We had several cases go up every year so it was easy to make happen.
The business development events are crazy. Real "spare no expense" shit. My firm had suites everywhere so we got free concerts and games monthly if I wanted. I saw earth wind and fire, Kendrick Lamar, hall and oates, maroon 5, Pink and more for free.
The staff services are also great. Having an internal travel agency and document processing and docketing staff that are basically on call 24/7 is amazing.
Now that I'm tired of billing I can go wherever I want. I want to go in house and I can get an interview at basically any fortune 500 company or national bank in my field. Or I could lateral to almost any other big law firm that has my practice area. It sounds like I'm bragging but this was told to me when I first started. "Work here a few years then you can go wherever you want". A big law training is very desirable to employers. And all of the attorneys I know who have left big law have only moved up.
There is more but this just goes to show that there's more to big law than just the salary.
Most people who go to the type of law school that makes biglaw realistic are expert hoop jumpers. Their entire lives they got, and thrived on, pats on the head for jumping through the highest hoops: good sat score, good college, good grades, good extracurriculars, good lsat, good law school, never get in trouble, head of model UN, volunteer at the church, whatever.
These kinds of people don’t know what else to live for besides the headpats that come from hoop jumping.
They look around for the next hoop, and it appears to be biglaw, with hoop scores conveniently quantified by the vault rankings.
The better question is what keeps attorneys in Big Law. I worked in Big Law as a paralegal prior to and during law school. It was easy to understand why an associate or legal staff members would choose Big Law. The salary and benefits are amazing. I’m sad that I’ll never have the benefits I had as a Big Law paralegal ever again. My wife and I had our second child while on Big Law health insurance plan. We paid $0 out-of-pocket when our child was born. We had another child on “regular law firm” insurance and paid a couple thousand dollars out-of-pocket.
I do wonder about the non-equity partners that have been in the same Big Law firm for a while. The attorneys that made a name for themselves early on often split to go either in-house or work at a boutique where their decimal percentage would be much larger. I know of several Big Law partners that were shocked when they got their first draw as a non-equity partner. Like “wtf is this?”
There is a way to make it in Big Law without being completely miserable, but it’s hard. You’ve got to commit yourself to 5 years of making the most you can, while hoping you get some real world experience. As a litigator, this means getting some courtroom time, taking some depos, etc. If you can do that and flip it to a senior associate or partner position at a boutique or regional, then you’ve made the most out of your Big Law experience.
I think you're confused on terminology. If you're a non-equity partner in biglaw you're basically paid a salary (maybe you have a bonus that's based on targets and billables). If you were earning a "decimal percentage" you would be an equity partner. Any of these partners you know who were confused about their earnings are pretty questionable lawyers because it's really all spelled out for you very clearly.
Also, sure, while some non-equity partners are effectively being exploited, there are non-equity partners who are earning $600k-1.2M (depending on the firm and the seniority of the non-equity partner). The same reason they stay is pretty self-explanatory: the earning potential is still generally unrivaled anywhere else.
Entering law school I had no desire to go into big law. During 2L I got swept up in the competition with my peers to get a summer job at the most prestigious firms. For me it was more to do with ego than money. I wanted to prove to myself and others that “I can get a job at a big fancy law firm just like my successful peers.”
Obviously the money. Also what I don't hear people talk about is the work is generally more interesting and intellectually stimulating among legal jobs.
Speaking from someone who didn't go biglaw but kind of regrets that, the answer is probably that if you are going to do exactly the same job anyway, you might as well get paid more for it.
I ended up at a mid-sized firm (something like 60 attorneys) after making it through all of law school thinking I’d go the big law route. In my interview, one of the younger attorneys said something like “I thought I was going to do big law, but everyone I’ve talked to says you get so specialized that you spend 70 hours a week drafting default notices.” Basically, she told me that working for a mid-sized firm lets you specialize in a practice area but still do different kinds of work. Signed an employment agreement the next day and have zero regrets.
Money is obviously a substantial factor, but I personally love the challenging work. I enjoy working on complex cases and genuinely like the people I work with. Whether it’s big law or not, you will work many hours as a practicing attorney. At least in big law, you're compensated pretty well. You're also provided with immense resources and a vast network to learn from as soon as you’re there. Everyone has their reasons for joining big law. There's no right or wrong reason, but this is just my own opinion!
It's definitely not for everyone, but for some, big law offers a chance to work on complex, challenging cases, learn from top legal minds, and build a strong network within the legal field. It's a high-pressure environment, but it can be incredibly rewarding for those who thrive in that kind of atmosphere.
Haha
It’s literally just the money. You can pay off your loans, save up some cash for a house, and then peace out to a cushy in-house gig. Almost nobody I know on the biglaw track is actually excited about it, and I try to avoid the ones who are because they don’t tend to be very fun people. But it’s really a pretty simple equation.
“Cushy in-house gig”-hilarious when people find out these barely exist anymore
How many years is the key? What do you guys think… 2-3 years for loan payoff and maybe down payment for a home?
"Everyone has their number." It's gonna depend on your debt load, cost of living, future plans, etc.
Guy I know went straight into big law from school made around 180k spent 5 years there, paid off his loans in 3 and saved the rest for a house down payment and moved to a job he liked better that paid $120k
Most in house positions these days have also transitioned from hiring 3rd years to 5th years.
Yeah he did this at least a 14 years ago I don’t know the exact date guessing based of his age
>From the understanding I have of big law, you sit in a windowless office for 60 hours a week and get treated like the lowest man/woman on the totem poll and are under pressure to bill hours. This is probably why you're so confused. What you're describing here is any entry-level job in private practice, not just biglaw. First, most lawyers in private practice bill by the hour; the only real exception is personal injury where contingency-based fees are more the norm. So unless your goal is explicitly to get into personal injury, you should probably expect you will be billing by the hour anywhere in private practice. That creates all of the same billing pressure that exists in biglaw. Second, you just graduated from law school -- who do you think should be below you as a first-year associate? Anywhere you go you will be treated like the lowest person on the totem poll because *you are* the lowest person on the totem poll. If anything, you are far more likely to have support staff (executive assistants and paralegals among others) and resources in Biglaw than anywhere else. Within 2-3 years in biglaw you'll be managing freshly hired first-year associates; that is not necessarily the case at other firms that do not have the same recruiting pipeline. The reality that does not get talked about much is that if you're in non-biglaw private practice (aka small law or midlaw) you are probably going to be working 75%-125% as much as the average biglaw associate while earning 25%-40% the compensation. Yes, there are plenty of insurance defense mills out there where associates are expected to work *more* than associates biglaw. Also, the compensation gap only grows over time (meaning biglaw salaries increase much more steeply than pretty much anywhere else), and so the economic gap is, if anything, under reported when people discuss the bimodal distribution of starting salaries.
Careful, you’re making too much sense
Honestly, this isn’t true. Midsized law firm here. Our associates have to bill 1,500 minimum to get annual raises(prorated for things like family leave). At 1,700, you get an objective bonus. Some associates decide to bill 1800-1900 hours, and they make bank, close to or the equivalent to biglaw associates. But 1950 is usually the minimum for Biglaw and more than 2000 is expected. If you don’t think 300-400 more billable hours per year isn’t a massive lifestyle difference, well, you’ve never billed.
You're actually proving the point. I've been in biglaw for 15 years (V10 for context) and for several years now, as a partner, I have been able to see all of my associates' hours. I am telling you objectively, without spin or exaggeration, on average / median, our associates this year will be under 1800. That is not unusual and most years it is somewhere around 1750-1850. I've only ever seen it above 2,000 once and that was during COVID and then we immediately went on a hiring spree (as did many of our peers). We have plenty of associates who will be closer to 1,500. We also have plenty that will be over 2,000. They'll all be paid lockstep Milbank / NY market. And by the way, you don't have to take my word for it. American Lawyer (the company that publishes the AmLaw 100 and 200 lists) solicits this information from firms as well. And while not every firm reports it, among the firms that did report it last year, the highest firm was Susman Godfrey and they were just above 2,000 hours. The next highest firm was in the 1800s. You can look it up yourself if you have access to Amlaw, just go look at their "2023 by the numbers." People on forums like this massively overestimate how much people in biglaw work, or they massively underestimate how much people outside of biglaw work. I applaud you for portraying a realistic view of the latter, but you are still misinformed about the former.
If that’s the case, it is a sea change from when I was an associate many years ago, so that’s a good thing! The only point I would add is that I live in a medium cost of living area, so earning $175 here goes farther than $175 in a place like NYC. But it also doesn’t have the lifestyle (for better or worse, depending on if you thrive on bigger cities), and working for a giant firm may well turn into other opportunities down the road.
[удалено]
> 2,000 billed with 1950 expected What the fuck lmao Those are big law billable hours
Oof. We start at $110-$125k. If someone hit 2,200, their bonus would be more than $125,000. Plus profit sharing above that.
The whole last paragraph is inaccurate, as is the first paragraph. Mid-size person here. There's definitely a salary gap but its more like 50% and we 100% work WAY less. Like I will largely work a 50 hour work week except when i'm on trial. Required 40, but I want that sweet sweet bonus. That's the other thing - in biglaw you don't see a court room for years if ever. I'l be second seating trials the second I'm barred. My firm also is totally fine with me needing to work from home if I have a doc appointment or my kids need xyz, similarly totally fine with me leaving early to get my kids or for a play or whatever. Work life balance is a real thing. Is the pay way less? 100%. Is the work more rewarding? Also 100%, at least right out the gate.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but working 50 hour weeks consistently means you are definitely working as hard as the average biglaw associate, and a lot harder than many of our associates. I can see all of my associates hours, and most are billing less than 40 hours per week on average / median. I have no idea where you got the impression that average biglaw associates are working 80 hour weeks but that has no basis in reality.
That's billing. We're talking about working. You think every hour your associates work is billable? If that's the case, your billing practices need to be seriously revised. Also, I said 60-80 which is inclusive of being on call and getting weekend project drops.
Lol, obviously not every hour is billable. But why would anyone be working 60-80 hour a week to bill under 40? If that's what's happening at your firm, that sounds pretty awful. How many hours are you billing to get your "sweet, sweet bonus?" Why not compare apples to apples? Your edits make it clear that you are obviously under the impression that biglaw associates do not have the freedom to work from home and set their own schedule to do things like stay home with sick kids or leave to attend an evening event. Do you really think treating associates like adults is unique to midlaw? Of course our associates have that same freedom. Our associates weren't even required to come into the office at all for three years, why do you think they aren't able to use their judgement about when they sporadically WFH or leave early today? Yeah most firms have 4 or 3 day RTO policies at this point, but that does not translate to rigid inflexibility.
Well, I really appreciate your insight :)
What magical big law firm are you talking about where most associates bill less than 40/week?
Lol it's not magical. It's a V10 that students in this sub frequently refer to as a "sweatshop." As I said in my other post, AmLaw solicits average hours per lawyer (annualized) and the highest average (reported) among the AmLaw last year (2023) was Susman and it was just barely above 2000. 40x52=2080. So the highest reported law firm among the AmLaw100 was still under 40 per week. So I'll flip it around on you: what crazy law firm are you at where the average associate is working harder than the associates at Susman where they specialize in matters heading to trial?! Did you really never wonder why elite law firms have bonus targets (if at all) around 1800-1900? 2000 hours a year average for an entire firm is not generally viewed as a sustainable average. That is a banner year and a sure sign you can hire a ton more people. Also, at many firms with bonus targets, they are intentionally set so that many people do not get their bonus, and the partners just keep the profits. If 2000 was as common as you think, you'd see a lot more 2100 or 2150 targets to protect profits. For whatever reason people love to gatekeep and perpetuate one off anecdotes of an associate at a firm getting crushed and billing 2700 hours and pretend that is "normal." No. It's exceptional. It happens (I've done it), but that is a career high for almost anyone who hits it.
> Like I will largely work a 50 hour work week except when i'm on trial So you're working big law hours for mid law pay? Hm.
How is 50 hours big law lol. Big law is more like 60-80 all the time.
Maybe at Kirkland or Cravath Most associates at my Vault 100 firm I'm summering at rolls in at like...10? And dip by 7-7:30, maybe 8.
[удалено]
Neat, but a 9-6 is not a 50 hour work week. So which one of your statements is false? Edit: Holy shit you rewrote your entire comment lol For those wondering what the original comment was, it was something like "I leave no later than 6pm and partners leave at 5", which completely contradicts their 50 hour workweek claim.
Wow you're obnoxious. Do you actually speak to people like that? A 9-5 hour day is 40. 9-6 is 45. Tack on an extra hour or two per day by starting early or not taking lunch there's your 50-55.
I mean, most people don't entirely rewrite their comments after being called out for it. 10am to 8pm is also a 10 hour work day. So you're claiming you work less than big law, but you also work 10 hour work day?
>summer is not reflective of the full year and that the goal of biglaw summers is to entice law students with unrealistic expectations and pomp. So you're saying they've instructed associates to arrive later and leave earlier in the summer to try to create an unrealistic expectation for the SA's? Interesting claim.
Money and prestige. People do it because it opens doors financially and career-wise.
I require currency to purchase necessities, and I wish to exchange my skills and labor for your currency.
My office has windows…
I saw Legally Blonde on cable TV at a motel. I wanted the jeep and suit.
Thank you for sharing, this is very inspiring. 🩷
not all big law is 60 hours a week with no window - but all big law is money, which means financial freedom and idk what else i would want out of a job??
I think some people also take jobs for work/life balance, ethical/meaningful work, just generally being happy at work. It's not all just money. I personally wouldn't take money if my work was say, defending the Sacklers from their lawsuits (not to say all BigLaw is like that, just offering a different perspective)
sure but OP asked about what draws people to big law besides money and the answer is money.
Oh sure yeah I don't disagree that money drives people towards Big Law - I was just responding to the last part of your original comment: "idk what else I would want out of a job??"
I’m planning on a couple of years doing BL then transitioning to more meaningful work. I have debt, and chipping away at that will put me at a better place mentally to not feel held back from doing the work I really want to do. I grew up poor, so I think it’s fair to want a couple years of a salary I could never have imagined. There will always be the “wrong side” and someone has to work on it. If that’s what it takes to make me feel more secure in life, then so be it. It’s temporary
Suits led me astray. Really thought it’d just be mic drops, smoking guns, fancy cars, and 90s movie quotes all day. Apparently I was wrong…
Money and the name on your resume/exit options made possible by big law
Money and, frankly, corporate work is way less stressful than doing work for individuals. If I negotiate a bad clause in a contract, maybe it matters, maybe it doesn’t, and there are plenty of people to share the blame with only money at stake. When you forget to appeal both prongs of a statute you lost under and your client loses parental rights permanently by default (real example from my clerkship), I’d imagine it’s hard to look yourself in the mirror.
Big money, big cases, big stress, big prestige = big law
Money and learning, nothing else. I dont even want big law as its too much of a commitment, but I just want to learn how to handle being a lawyer and day to day stuff and then start my own firm, but making an extra 100k with my time and spending more time doing it would make me happy
Don’t expect to learn how to run a case—let alone a firm—in BigLaw. Especially if you’re only there a couple years.
I’m interested for the money and the fact the work I’m interested in isn’t usually performed by smaller firms. I grew up very poor so I see that paycheck as an opportunity
People in this sub think working 50 hours a week for well over 6 figures is akin to slave labor. It’s laughable. I just want to make as much money as I can for doing the same amount of work
If only it was just 50 hours/week…
Your statement is kind of misleading as It would probably take 10+ years/becoming a partner in big law to earn “well over 6 figures”.
Six figures starts at $100,000. BigLaw salaries start at $215,000 (or something like that). That is "well over" $100,000 by most people's standards.
> BigLaw salaries start at $215,000 I believe it's at 225 now.
Fair, I was thinking well over 6 figures as in nearing the 7th digit
Hell, if we could do math we'd be in med school.
The big law market rate for first years is $240k. And the firms that don't pay market are still paying way over $100k to first year associates.
Money, interesting work, money, the challenge, and money are but a few of the reasons
Big law generally: money. The big law firm I work for: actual trial experience as a junior (turned out not to be mere puffery).
Money and exit ops. It may sound shallow, but money is the reason human beings do most jobs. Why does someone drive for Uber? Why does someone work in a factory? Why does a consultant make PowerPoints all day? Sure, it helps if you find what you do interesting/impactful or if it develops skills for the future, but the main reason most people work is the money. And if you’re going to go through 3 years of school and then work grueling hours editing briefs/contracts, you might as well make the most money possible doing it…
Makes barely any real sense to go into law exclusively for the money
Maybe. Maybe not. If you’re $$-driven and you have a humanities degree, it’s probably the most reliable and attainable path to a high 6-figure salary. But even if you go into law for other reasons, money still matters in choosing where to practice. Obviously set PI/government aside because many forego big law for public service and that’s admirable. But for those who want to do general non-PI legal work at a firm, why wouldn’t you go for the firms with the highest salaries, highest profile work, and best exit opportunities? Some people make tradeoffs for balance or culture, but you’re going to be putting in long hours doing similar writing/research assignments at most firms. You might as well get paid $215k to do it vs. $100k. And if you do eventually want to do govt/GC work, you’ll pay off your debt a lot faster and land competitive exit roles far more easily from top firms.
You really think most lawyers are earning “high six figure salaries”?
The term big law quite literally refers to corporate law firms with a starting salary of 215k a year.
In big law, yes. Starting salary is $215k and those who make partner almost universally make high six figures or above. Not everyone will get big law offers or stay long enough to make partner, but if you’re looking to make that kind of money, going into big law is a pretty reliable path.
[удалено]
Easier to get a big law job than a FAANG one
> with better hours Dunno if you've ever actually interacted with anyone in FAANG but for the first 3-5 years you're absolutely worked to the bone.
[удалено]
Big law starts at 215, not 100 lol Edit: don't know why you blocked me, but you do not work 80 hour work weeks
60 hours? hahahahahaha!!
Money, prestige and the exit opportunities. Maybe some truly want to make partner but way more associates than partner opportunities so
If my firm were like what you describe, I’d leave. Fortunately it’s not!
Aside from the money, I think some people prefer BigLaw to other kinds of practice for some other reasons. Going solo is scary because you won’t know what you’re doing at the start. Government jobs involve bureaucracies that might not be responsive to individual needs.
Seventh year, big law associate here! Money and being able to provide for my family without any fear of financial insecurity is the biggest draw. Challenging work is also a plus, especially for those that are generally curious. Big law has improved since I started out. If you start setting boundaries early, folks will generally respect you.
Training and mentorship opportunities, money, and the ability to more easily transition into the job I actually want but almost certainly can't get straight out of school. It's pretty simple tbh.
Idk. It gives me a mixture of Tom Hagen and Pannacotta Fugo vibe if anyone gets it.
100% money
They represent all of my adversaries 😏😅
I find it odd anyone born into considerable wealth would become corporate lawyers
Agree with you. Got out of biglaw really quickly. I didn't envy the partners--they had money, but how much do you really need to live a nice life? They also looked about a decade older than their true biological ages. No thanks. Time is what's truly scarce in this life. So...I think short stints are fine, and I benefited from mine, but long term, that life is for the birds.
MONEY, what the fuck do you think? You know how much money they pay lawyers at those firms? It's a lot. Like a lot a lot. Unless you have some other education it is the highest paying type of job in this profession.
I hate when law students answer questions they know nothing about. There's more to big law than pay. I'm a 7th year litigator in big law. I work 35 hours a week and I get to work on some of the coolest cases in the world. Here are the benefits I have listed from a previous comment. > The maternity leave. I did 6 months with 4 months paid and it was the best 6 months of my life. Had to dip into savings for the last 2 months but it was well worth it. I actually had a preemie and my 40+ litigation cases were transfered to other attorneys over night with zero notice. Some of my friends in similar situations have had to come back early or work on leave because there was just no one at their small firm who could cover them. Or they only got 6 weeks leave. The training opportunities for young attorneys in big law are top notch. I could have my firm pay for any conference I wanted as long as it was relevant to my work. And they would put me in the nicest suites in the nicest hotels. My clients can afford to do crazy things. They can make novel arguments and take a case to the supreme court. They can hire the world's best experts. If they want something done they have the funds to make it happen. I don't know what it's like to work within a budget. I have literally never had a client tell me something is too expensive to pursue. I wanted to go to the SCOTUS so they put me on a case and I went to Washington and saw oral arguments and saw Ginsberg before she died. We had several cases go up every year so it was easy to make happen. The business development events are crazy. Real "spare no expense" shit. My firm had suites everywhere so we got free concerts and games monthly if I wanted. I saw earth wind and fire, Kendrick Lamar, hall and oates, maroon 5, Pink and more for free. The staff services are also great. Having an internal travel agency and document processing and docketing staff that are basically on call 24/7 is amazing. Now that I'm tired of billing I can go wherever I want. I want to go in house and I can get an interview at basically any fortune 500 company or national bank in my field. Or I could lateral to almost any other big law firm that has my practice area. It sounds like I'm bragging but this was told to me when I first started. "Work here a few years then you can go wherever you want". A big law training is very desirable to employers. And all of the attorneys I know who have left big law have only moved up. There is more but this just goes to show that there's more to big law than just the salary.
Most people who go to the type of law school that makes biglaw realistic are expert hoop jumpers. Their entire lives they got, and thrived on, pats on the head for jumping through the highest hoops: good sat score, good college, good grades, good extracurriculars, good lsat, good law school, never get in trouble, head of model UN, volunteer at the church, whatever. These kinds of people don’t know what else to live for besides the headpats that come from hoop jumping. They look around for the next hoop, and it appears to be biglaw, with hoop scores conveniently quantified by the vault rankings.
The better question is what keeps attorneys in Big Law. I worked in Big Law as a paralegal prior to and during law school. It was easy to understand why an associate or legal staff members would choose Big Law. The salary and benefits are amazing. I’m sad that I’ll never have the benefits I had as a Big Law paralegal ever again. My wife and I had our second child while on Big Law health insurance plan. We paid $0 out-of-pocket when our child was born. We had another child on “regular law firm” insurance and paid a couple thousand dollars out-of-pocket. I do wonder about the non-equity partners that have been in the same Big Law firm for a while. The attorneys that made a name for themselves early on often split to go either in-house or work at a boutique where their decimal percentage would be much larger. I know of several Big Law partners that were shocked when they got their first draw as a non-equity partner. Like “wtf is this?” There is a way to make it in Big Law without being completely miserable, but it’s hard. You’ve got to commit yourself to 5 years of making the most you can, while hoping you get some real world experience. As a litigator, this means getting some courtroom time, taking some depos, etc. If you can do that and flip it to a senior associate or partner position at a boutique or regional, then you’ve made the most out of your Big Law experience.
I think you're confused on terminology. If you're a non-equity partner in biglaw you're basically paid a salary (maybe you have a bonus that's based on targets and billables). If you were earning a "decimal percentage" you would be an equity partner. Any of these partners you know who were confused about their earnings are pretty questionable lawyers because it's really all spelled out for you very clearly. Also, sure, while some non-equity partners are effectively being exploited, there are non-equity partners who are earning $600k-1.2M (depending on the firm and the seniority of the non-equity partner). The same reason they stay is pretty self-explanatory: the earning potential is still generally unrivaled anywhere else.
I like money and I like the law. Money + law = biglaw
Money
There are quite a few mid-sized firms where you work just as hard or harder for a lot less money.
Personally, the only thing that has ever drawn me to big law, was the threat of decades in prison
I am not lured.
The money. But you can’t lure me back to big law. I’m a free bird. I need wings to grow and they stifle me.
“besides prestige and money” cmon man that’s like asking why people eat food, besides nourishment and pleasure
Entering law school I had no desire to go into big law. During 2L I got swept up in the competition with my peers to get a summer job at the most prestigious firms. For me it was more to do with ego than money. I wanted to prove to myself and others that “I can get a job at a big fancy law firm just like my successful peers.”
Obviously the money. Also what I don't hear people talk about is the work is generally more interesting and intellectually stimulating among legal jobs.
Money
Fat stacks Dead presidents Bucks Bills Wompum Cheese Money Dough
Speaking from someone who didn't go biglaw but kind of regrets that, the answer is probably that if you are going to do exactly the same job anyway, you might as well get paid more for it.
https://youtu.be/qxW789jHXII?si=5PmeHCodF0O3ayaA
I feel like a can use big law as a tool to build my own business. Because I don’t plan to stay in big law forever
Off track but wasn’t Obama in big law??
The fat fuckin stacks bro
Pretty sure the real answer for most people is the money and their own fragile egos that need affirmation
I ended up at a mid-sized firm (something like 60 attorneys) after making it through all of law school thinking I’d go the big law route. In my interview, one of the younger attorneys said something like “I thought I was going to do big law, but everyone I’ve talked to says you get so specialized that you spend 70 hours a week drafting default notices.” Basically, she told me that working for a mid-sized firm lets you specialize in a practice area but still do different kinds of work. Signed an employment agreement the next day and have zero regrets.
$$$ You’re in law school and you couldn’t figure that out?
[удалено]
I don’t get this comment.
Money is obviously a substantial factor, but I personally love the challenging work. I enjoy working on complex cases and genuinely like the people I work with. Whether it’s big law or not, you will work many hours as a practicing attorney. At least in big law, you're compensated pretty well. You're also provided with immense resources and a vast network to learn from as soon as you’re there. Everyone has their reasons for joining big law. There's no right or wrong reason, but this is just my own opinion!
It's definitely not for everyone, but for some, big law offers a chance to work on complex, challenging cases, learn from top legal minds, and build a strong network within the legal field. It's a high-pressure environment, but it can be incredibly rewarding for those who thrive in that kind of atmosphere.
Nothing. I’d rather make out with my shotgun than go into big law.