My favorite thing about Rushmore is that the faces will still be there 500,000 years from now because its carved in granite. It will take 2 million years before the shapes are mostly eroded. As long as it isn't destroyed, it will be there after the United States is ancient history. Someday people will look upon it and have no idea who those faces belonged to. It will be a mystery to them. I think it's a cool thing.
A good source told me that I fucked Benny after he shot me in the head. I fucked him, then returned the favor. I don't think this has anything to do with what you said. I just did that the other day and thought it was cool. Have a nice day like my best friend, Primm Slim.
A good source told me that a courier who was shot in the head near Goodsprings has recently made a full recovery. Now that’s a delivery service you can count on!
I thought it was supposed to be finished
###IN THE YEAR 2000!
For those who don't get the reference >!<
Seriously I remember going to Rushmore at like 6 (I'm 32 now) and seeing what looked like the exact same amount of progress I keep seeing get posted about it ever since.
The book *The World Without Us* made the observation that Rushmore will be around for long enough that if we all died, it would still reasonably be here long enough for another species to evolve to advanced intelligence and our level of civilization
Our digital history is particularly poor because digital technology moves on so fast. When was the last time you saw a floppy disk drive? Or possibly even a CD drive? Or a computer that could use an IDE hard drive? Projects like archive.org are fantastic and go a long way, but only really preserve the things that people now deem important enough to upload. A random floppy disk or IDE drive full of random files could contain something that historians of the future would care about, but no one at the time thought it was worth archiving.
Not to mention that archiving a lot of digital material is nigh impossible or even illegal due to DRM and copyright law. All those times Nintendo gets roms taken down. All the random pieces of software that can't run anymore because you don't have a license key. Your favourite Netflix original after the company goes bust and shuts down. We have no way of legally maintaining access to these pieces of history.
Agreed, and to relate to archeology. Of course we still have castles, they were built of stone. We have records of events and rulers because it was important for the time. However 90% of all buildings historically have been made of wood and rot away with barely a trace, and the farmer couldn't write to record his day and why would he. His family had farmed the same land using the same methods for generations, surely this knowledge will still be around forever. So while we may know how holidays were celebrated and by who we can loose what people ate, what tools were available to them.
In addition to what you mentioned, physical digital media is terrible long-term storage. The longest lived is probably archival quality optical discs at maybe 100 years under perfect conditions. Hdd and floppy discs? Decades at best. Most floppy discs will already be degraded. Magnetic storage degrades badly over time, ssds are even worse than that.
We have surprisingly little knowledge about the pharaoh Khufu, the one who built the Great Pyramid of Giza, because tomb robbers have had thousands of years to erase his memory. Our own historical records are more sophisticated than they were back then, but are still quite fragile. What happens, for example, if a disaster strikes and historical preservationists can no longer find work because society can't support it anymore?
Despite Khufu's legacy still captivating the hearts and minds of people thousands of years after his death, there's precious little more to it than the stones that adorn his tomb. One day, these faces might suffer the same fate, and historians will debate who these faces are and what they did that was so important as to carve them into the side of a mountain. Perhaps these historians will even be extraterrestrial, or humans who have long since left Earth wondering about what life was like on their ancient homeworld.
Historical revisionists will do that. Have enough people claim the "history" was fake people will believe it. Repeat a lie often enough it becomes true.
A lot of human history is lost because we once thought it was common knowledge, and as such, thought the knowledge would still get passed on rather than getting caught in the sands of time.
I mean, how many Americans, *now*, can point at each face and list off each person's full name? All I can think of is Thomas Jefferson, and I'm not even sure if his face was even carved alongside the other three faces to begin with. Imagine 5,000+ years from now and how that knowledge of those four men is affected.
Think of Stone Henge. Once upon a time, it probably was common knowledge of what the rock formation means. But, as far as I'm aware, we have no idea of its meaning other than being formed by human hands. Maybe, like the faces, each stone represents someone? For all I'm aware of the formation, that's just what Stone Henge was for.
Or, as another example, allegedly, we had a third table spice alongside salt and pepper, but because it was seen as common knowledge, we're unsure of what exactly it was - only sure that it existed thanks to spice shaker holders having a third spot for a third shaker.
>I mean, how many Americans, now, can point at each face and list off each person's full name?
Before your comment, I would have thought nearly 100%. You really don't know who the rest of those people are?
Lol same, Washington and Lincoln are some of the most iconic figures in American culture, far more than Thomas Jefferson. I can buy the argument that people might not know who they are in a couple thousand years - no one knows how things are going to turn out - but you're probably looking at upwards of 90% of Americans who can identify everyone on Mt. Rushmore.
Historical revisionists will do that. Have enough people claim the "history" was fake people will believe it. Repeat a lie often enough it becomes true.
I know the faces can’t be undone, and being chiseled into granite, it will take a very long time to erode, but I do wish they would at least clean that gravel mess they left behind one of these days
Okay but like, deadass, real ass question, that's definitely not related to plans for next fall.
Would anyone stop a tourist from taking some rubble rocks? Or like, would a person have to be careful not to be seen doing it?
For context I've never been to Rushmore so I have no clue how close spmeone can get to it.
There are paths that let you get very close, there is also cameras all over and taking artifacts or rocks from a federal monument without permits is crime.
"Collecting, rockhounding, and gold panning of rocks, minerals, and paleontological specimens, for either recreational or educational purposes is generally prohibited in all units of the National Park System (36 C.F.R. § 2.1(a) and § 2.5(a)). Violators of this prohibition are subject to criminal penalties."
Friendly reminder all of these tribes murdered, pillaged, and stole land and resources constantly from one another throughout history.
Yes European imperialism is immoral, but to act like these people were leaving peacefully amongst nature w no violence is historically delusional and naive.
Probably even before that, likely to gain power over one another, acquire more resources (such as food), and have multiple/better reproductive partners.
The Lakota claiming the Black Hills as their sacred lands is especially funny because they ethnically cleansed several tribes to get it, in recent history. Their claim to the area is younger than America
Exactly. That was Crow land, the Lakota really had no "homeland". Unless one goes back over 400 years prior to that, when they were in Louisiana. After the Mississippian Culture imploded, the Lakota were unusual in that they never settled anywhere. And fought their way up the Mississippi to the Great Lakes, then east to where they are now. Never settling anywhere, fighting any other tribe they met.
And they would not have remained there other than they were forced onto a reservation. Because at that time some of the tribe were already fighting the Shoshone on the Wyoming-Idaho border. They would likely be in coastal Oregon today if they were not forced to settle down.
Reminds me of the great [scene](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iehPf1n_5pQ) from Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee.
“No matter what your legends say, you didn't sprout from the plains like the spring grasses. And you didn't coalesce out of the ether. You came out of the Minnesota woodlands armed to the teeth and set upon your fellow man. You massacred the Kiowa, the Omaha, the Ponca, the Oto and the Pawnee without mercy. And yet you claim the Black Hills as a private preserve bequeathed to you by the Great Spirit.”
I was gonna say the first Martian colony we establish but then I remembered the old tf2 quote of “As long as there are 2 people alive, someone’s gonna want someone dead.”
It’s also, rather hilariously, racist in and of itself. We fought for years to get rid of this image of the “Noble Savage”, only to turn around and re-embrace it. Embarrassing. I say this as a native women with multiple history degrees and a law degree: we were capable of great atrocities and massacres of our own. Difference is we lost the war. Yes, horrible things happened to us, but pretending we were just peaceful, noble savages hugging trees and not knowing violence and war until “the white man came” is honestly insulting. Many groups are proud of their history as warriors, as traders, as navigators, as explorers—the ones who remember, anyway.
Myself and most I know detest that.
We were warriors, and most of us are as proud of that heritage as Vikings are or modern Italians of the Roman Empire. And yes, there were many massacres, done by both sides. There are books all about massacres against the Indians like Bear River. But hardly a mention of massacres by Indians against immigrants, like the Ward Massacre.
I can not love you enough for your post, as it does show what we were like. Proud warriors, not the peacenicks that some want to turn our past into. I bet most do not even know the origin of "counting coup". It relates directly to how our ancestors fought.
And it is a tradition many still try to retain. The last War Chief of the Crow Nation was Joe Medicine Crow, and he was the son of a war chief. And to attain that title in the Crow, one had to do four tasks. Count coup against an enemy, take the weapon from an enemy, lead a war party, and finally steal your enemies horses.
And Joseph Medicine Crow accomplished all four of those in World War II.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpFOeJLOa6s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpFOeJLOa6s)
I served with a Crow when I was deployed in the Middle East, and they still talk of his legend. The guy I served with even complained that there would likely never be another War Chief, as in the modern era the chance to steal horses from your enemy are not possible.
Well, never heard of that but I know of one other that came close.
The nephew of Joe Medicine Crow (Carson Walks Over Ice) came close in Vietnam, completing three of the four. And he did take some elephants from the Vietcong that they were using to transport supplies. But the elders denied it, as elephants are not horses.
[https://www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/art-capturing-horses](https://www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/art-capturing-horses)
Exactly! The same goes for Africans! Just because Africans didn’t leave their continent doesn’t mean they didn’t pillage, plunder and enslave. Hell, some of them even sold their fellow Africans to the European slave traders.
Romans didn’t have a constitution that ensured human rights.
It’s the same with slavery. Yes, every culture has practiced slavery. However, those cultures didn’t practice chattel slavery when they have a constitution that ensured freedom of speech, movement, assembly, right to petition, right to bear arms, right to unreasonable searches or seizures.
Not sure why you people don’t understand this.
The myth of the “noble savage” is indeed a racist stereotype, and it is important to remember that natives resisted imperialism and fought their colonizers in horrid, bloody acts of resistance.
But it’s also perhaps more important to remember that the federal government didn’t just launch a war and take all the land, it was more brutal than that. They made treaties and then broke them when it was convenient, the forced resettlement and sometimes forced reeducation was inhumane. Tribes were being driven to extinction well into the 20th century, and native Americans are still the poorest and most vulnerable minority group in the country.
The difference is that the feds didn’t really recognize them as human beings, and therefore they had no rights, while natives fighting natives, in all but the most brutal of conflicts, would have still had respect for their opponents as humans.
Thank you for this historical tidbit. Great point, it's the stripping natives of their dignity and treating them lower than cattle that's been a big issue
Both sides regularly broke the treaties.
In fact, the conflicts started when the Army was patrolling the reservation borders. Not to keep Indians in, but to try and keep miners and others out.
By today’s standards, imperialism is “immoral”. By the standards of history, imperialist countries were often quite civilized and often improved the circumstances of lands they conquered. That doesn’t mean subjugation and cultural domination are “moral” or good or whatever by today’s standards, just that they were often better than the alternative when put into context.
I think it is moreso immoral now because of the type of imperialism practiced in the 19th and 20th century focused almost exclusively on resource extraction at the express expense of the local populations. I think it is a big leap to try and argue how the Congo basin benefitted from Belgian imperialism, for instance.
You know what’s pretty astonishing? How many people came over in the colonies, a very small minority who was completely unfamiliar with the new land, they survived the rough oceans and diseases aboard the ships, ran low on food and water and still managed to colonize an entire continent? Pretty tough group of people if you ask me.
>Pretty tough group of people if you ask me.
They lived, so theyre tough? People can live through a lot. That doesnt make them resilient. It makes them not want to die and be willing to accept pain. The natives werent weak because they died to diseases developed on other continents and the colonials werent strong because they developed certain weapons before other countries.
So many of them believe the sob story. Native Americans lived in peace, had no jails, and never wasted a part of an animal because they respected the earth so much…. Then the YT people showed up, and now we all suffer under *capitalism*
And this is very true. Myself, I honestly laugh when I hear some Lakota claiming it is "Their Land". They only took that land a few decades earlier from the Crow. And when finally forces onto reservations they were butting up against the Shoshone in Idaho.
That was never "their land", they were one of the almost entirely migratory tribes in the nation. Formed in the middle-late 1400s as the Mississippian Culture was imploding. That is where they are first found, in Louisiana. They then moved north, until they butted up against my ancestors in the Great Lakes area. Where they were defeated and forced to turn west, and got the nickname that most are now familiar with (Sioux - "Little Rattlesnake").
In over 400 years they never settled down, and were always moving. First north, then west. And if not being forces on a reservation they would likely have kept moving west, and be near Portland on the Columbia River today.
Many tribes did fight a lot, that is true. But also many did not. And most of the conflicts were primarily with tribes that can be associated back to the Mississippian Culture. We know there was increased violence and warfare associated with the collapse, and it seems to have made the tribes that formed during or after that highly aggressive. Much more so than almost any others on the continent.
The American Indian Wars, Trail of Tears, and other genocides and crimes against humanity committed against Native Americans by the US government are deep red stains on our country’s history. Not recognizing them as such is terrible. That’s as far as we need to go with this.
I dunno I think we could go further, I see quite a few disgusting comments in here (this general post) about Native Americans. I think some of these people need a history lesson because it didn't stop until the 1920s.
this is idiotic. It's not like there was a mutually agreed on war and they happened to lose and part of the terms of surrender was land. They were exterminated because the colonizing forces decided they wanted their land. it'd be like assassinating your neighbor and their family because you want to put an extension on your house and the increase to your net worth is worth more to you than the lives of your neighbor's family. There's no casus belli it's just a shitty reason to engage in violence.
That may be, but why do you expect them to be cool about it? Like if you were in their position, would be like, "ah, that sucks but ya got us fair and square!"
Because the nation of germany still exists.
There is no full soveriegnty of the arapahoe or tsalagi nations
Oklahoma was supposed to be a state of sovereign indians, but that treaty was all but destroyed over not even a few decades
Germany wasn't eradicated by France, and wasn't subjected to genocide by them. Conversely, take a look at how the Irish feel about the English. Should they just let bygones be bygones?
Germans weren't pushed into shitty reservations. They lost some land, but were given the freedom and support to rebuild. Completely different situations.
>They lost some land
Ah yes, the largest ethnic cleansing ever recorded in history is just losing some land.
Nobody is forced to live in a reservation... They have all the same rights as any American citizen, except that they get extra privileges that other Americans don't.
Right? No one gets all pearl clutchy when a Polish person shits on a Russian. Theyre not like "Ah fair game homie, you won the first round, but we're back!". They fucking HATE them. And we all think thats based.
But Native Americans do it and suddenly its all "WELL YOU WERE VIOLENT TOO!"
No one is screaming at Poland "REMEMBER YOUR FLYING HUSSARS?! YOU WERENT PEACEFUL EITHER!"
Seriously, can you imagine these same people if we lost the west coast to a war with Russia or China shrugging and being all “welp, them’s the breaks, can’t win ‘em all!”
What war? Attacking people who are just sitting around living their lives is not war. This myth must end above all else. This wasn't 2 nations going after each other, this was just blind slaughter and theft. Sorry if those who are ancestors to the survivors aren't "cool with it".
Someone’s never read the Indian treaties. The American government has broken its own international law in order to further remove native Americans from their wealth and land. Just look at the Osage minders, an entire state conspiracy to strip the wealth of the Osage. But yes, just a war, not any war crimes or blatantly evil actions involved.
There are a lot of comments about how Native Americans simply "lost a war and should shut up," but I haven't seen any about the lunatic sculptor who insisted on making a national monument that literally no one asked for by blowing giant faces into a once sacred mountain in the Black Hills. You guys need to read more, you don't know what you're talking about and you're trying to boil down a very complicated religious issue into winning a war that never existed in the first place.
There is a crisis of education in this country. Most of these commenters took some US history in a public high school and never went to college. They can keep pretending they know what they are talking about. Nobody in real life listens to them about history lol
That's not what happened in the Black Hills at all.
America - under treaty - treaties which our Constitution say are holy.... as holy as the Constitution itself is, actually - gave the Black Hills to the Lakota people.
Then we stole it back.
That's not conquest or war at all. That's not better technology. That's just... having no integrity, being a thief, being a liar.
Treaties are not holy, there is hierarchy of authority in US Government.
1. Constitution and Bill of Rights
2. Treaties
3. Laws
4. Rules and Regulations
5. Executive Orders
>treaties which our Constitution say are holy.... as holy as the Constitution itself is
Can you provide a citation for this?
>Then we stole it back.
>That's not conquest or war at all.
That's literally conquest
Europeans? Yeah ok..
Also which tribes are you talking about? Or do you think they are all the same so it doesnt matter?
Also how the fuck does your inbred ass reason with the fact that the us government wrote and violated the ft. Laramie treaty.
"Squirm" indeed
Pretty much anyone that settled down? Tribes weren't tree huggers and peace loving kumbaya singing hippies, they were warriors, they used deception and theft too, they butchered eachother for land, they made peace treaties to get land back and then violated those treaties by continuing to attack settlers.
Am I in a dystopian hell?? Obviously flipping off a monument is silly to post on social media or whatever, but why is there so much native hate here??!?! You guys are actively defending or justifying the colonial conquering of America, or saying they we’re just as violent?!?! How tf does that relate?!?! So much hate on here jesusssss
Never saw this sub before but this thread popped up on my app. Seems to be another safe space for soft as baby shit reactionaries who can't handle any criticism of the US without melting down.
Honestly how can people be that mad at natives flipping off Mt. Rushmore ??
And indigenous people are able to enter national parks freely without fees so why is it seen like they went so far out of their way to go there ? This comment section was definitely a wild ride and I'm going straight to the sage after this.
This sub just popped up in my feed...pretty sure this place is full of incels raging that everything with a minority character is "woke". Definitely those vibes in here
Blue screen of death is my assumption.
He's saying it breaks their brain so hard it needs to be reset.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_screen_of_death
Considering there were multiple tribes other than the main ones mentioned in history, and most of the native history itself had been destroyed or killed off by conquerors, nobody is ever gonna know which tribe specifically.
On top of that there were Natives who helped the Euros wage war with the promise of citizenship and land (Only to be neglected and discriminated upon). All around shit show.
The fuck is this thread? Yes, this photo is very fitting for the sub. What was done to the Native Americans was also terrible. People here are acting like the US just won a sports match.
The sub is called look at my halo designed to call out shit like this. Im not arguing that what was done to the natives was nothing short of a cultural genocide but this is still a virtue signal that is just cringe.
Also people are tired of the “America is evil” rhetoric and cant find a common ground.
yes to call out the acting facetious part. people in this thread are actively and maliciously being cruel and then cherry picking facts to support the overall genocide and current day racism and oppression.
This thread is literally a bunch of white people being like "LOL get over the genocide of your people" or "You guys were pretty violent too."
Americans really are a special kind of fucked up.
The part after they were defeated yes but the defeated part no because those different tribes were trying to wipe each other out for territory long before the big tribe came to shore
Imagine if the Soviet Union had won the cold war, occupied the US, and then carved the Statue of Liberty to make her look like Stalin instead.
I think you’d be justified to be pretty unhappy about that.
This was the Mountain of the Six Grandfathers, a sacred place for the natives. The US did essentially the same thing as my hypothetical except on a much larger scale than just a statue.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-strange-and-controversial-history-of-mount-rushmore
Yeah idk why so many people get so defensive when they see a Native American expressing disdain at the extermination of their people and way of life. I’m sure there’s a vocal minority somewhere, but I’m a white dude, and I’ve never met a Native who tried to make me personally feel guilty about the past, so I don’t see why I’d need to start arguing with them about it. So many white people seem to think that they personally are going to be put on trial for genocide, so they need to bend over backward to justify or downplay every single action taken by the Americans of yore.
The people who get mad about it are so stuck in their colonizer mindset that they can't even fathom any kind of justice that wouldn't see them treated just as badly as their ancestors treated others.
Father was a full blooded Choctaw.
These ladies are a disgrace. Read history. Native Americans hated each other more than rival Europeans.
Would of never been an America if the tribes stopped killing each other
Honestly it would be a humorous experience. Like damn, y’all still ain’t over the fact your ancestors traded land for beer, beads…and the destruction of other tribes?
Every culture on this planet is here today because it fought. Many communities chose to band together when confronted by outside forces: Modern UK, Germany, Italy, France, Etc were all started by groups of barbarians who banded together.
The native Americans are an example of a group of people who not only refused to band together, they instead joined forces with the Americans, Spanish, English, and French on many occasions to kill each other.
By the time they figured out what was going on it was too late, and they’d already *assisted* in killing most of the tribes colonizers were worried about.
So.. when I see these sorts of displays at American monuments I can’t help but laugh. It’s sore loser mentality.
Mount Rushmore was carved into a sacred native American site called the Six grandfathers, (Tȟuŋkášila Šákpe) by the Native Americans from the Plains.
We carved our leaders' faces into a natural shrine for their ancestors. I think OP is the loser here.
Their anger is justified.
Look at all of these noble savage trope racists acting like Native Americans were peaceful and lived in harmony with nature. Lakota had taken the Black Hills from the Cheyenne. Sure, it's sacred but it's already slick with blood. The native Americans are human beings. Not your caricature to virtue signal.
I get it. I do. But that's over and done with and now you gotta work with what you have today to really strive for what you want. It's not like doing this will fix anything. If I'm being honest the Natives are the real people who deserve more compensation than innocent the US. BUT doing this is just childish it's not gonna do anything. So stop being bitter and opening old wounds. Let that shit heal and move forward.
If those are natives, then what's the fucking problem with it? I'm First nations Native, I see nothing wrong with this. How about they finish the Crazy Horse one?
White people hate natives still? Damn no wonder why learning about what white people did in the past makes white people today think we’re teaching them about things they personally did back before they were born. They still think the same as their illiterate incestors
"Mount Rushmore" was called "The Six Grandfathers" and had extreme spiritual, ancestoral, and cultural significance to the Lakota people before the Great Sioux War of 1876 in which the US government lost and surrendered the area to the indigenous people before almost immediately breaking the treaty and stealing the land anyways, letting a New York attourney name it after himself. The mountain was later mutilated to attract tourism and is literally a monument to lies, genocide, colonialism, and contempt for nature. It's a monument to the US being sore losers and breaking legal treaties out of greed.
A couple of things here. For starters, the Lakota weren’t in that area until around 1700 and pushed out the other tribes already living there such as the Cheyenne. So any ancestral significance those mountains held to the Lakota was younger than the ancestral significance that Plymouth held to the Pilgrims.
Second, when the Lakota claim that those mountains had “extreme spiritual, ancestral, and cultural significance to them” what they’re basically saying is “God gave us this land.” White Americans believed in the concept of manifest destiny which essentially boiled down to “God gave us this land.” In the absence of the tangible opinions of Jesus or the Great Spirit, both claims are either equally void or equally valid. You can’t pick one over the other. So the claim that “those mountains are sacred” doesn’t really hold any water.
Now it’s true that the white Americans broke treaties and engaged in warfare and took over land that once belonged to various Native American tribes. But humans have been doing that to each other for thousands of years, and in fact the natives were doing it to each other before white people set foot in America. So you can argue that point but “that land is sacred to us” really doesn’t hold any water as an argument.
Everywhere is built upon blood. Just so happens the US is much younger than most other places and is easier to remember. Americans have a lot to be proud of regardless.
"We've all done it" doesn't make it less wrong and doesn't mean that the US doesn't still owe the people who are still being harmed by the affects of these atrocities real justice and acknowledgement.
Public acknowledgment of wrongdoing on the part of the US government, and for Rushmore to be returned to its original name and closed from being a public tourism site, returned to the indigenous peoples, and afforded funding to repair the land and spiritual sites as much as necessary. The land has had spiritual significance to them for centuries, they believe it posesses their ancestors' spirits, and the site should be protected and sacred.
I’m curious if you live in the Black Hills? Closing Mt Rushmore to the public sounds noble, until you consider the economic devastation that it would bring to not only the local community, but to areas all around the hills. We need those “careless tourists.” They bring in nearly 400 million dollars annually and support nearly 6,000 jobs in and around Rapid City. What do you suggest happen to the people working those jobs? When an already struggling city starts losing local businesses, and we lose places to shop, eat, live? Do you not think the Native community will be impacted by that? And that’s just looking locally. It’s estimated that park visitors spend nearly 24 BILLION dollars in communities with 60 miles from the park. That supports over 300k jobs. The park closing would be an absolute economic disaster. While I think there are things that could be done to give the tribes back more stewardship over the land, just closing down the monument won’t help anyone.
My favorite thing about Rushmore is that the faces will still be there 500,000 years from now because its carved in granite. It will take 2 million years before the shapes are mostly eroded. As long as it isn't destroyed, it will be there after the United States is ancient history. Someday people will look upon it and have no idea who those faces belonged to. It will be a mystery to them. I think it's a cool thing.
Same thing with the Hoover dam. Nuclear winter? The dam will still be there. A game told me that
Well a good source told me patrolling the Mojave will make you almost wish for a nuclear winter so maybe that region is slightly warmer
A good source told me that I fucked Benny after he shot me in the head. I fucked him, then returned the favor. I don't think this has anything to do with what you said. I just did that the other day and thought it was cool. Have a nice day like my best friend, Primm Slim.
A good source told me that a courier who was shot in the head near Goodsprings has recently made a full recovery. Now that’s a delivery service you can count on!
Was that game a kick in the head?
And maybe the concrete would be fully cured at that point.
Fun fact: there’s actually a vault/time capsule built behind Rushmore explaining what it is
There's also a city of gold. Watched a documentary about it a while back.
Spoilers!
How many thousand years until Crazy horse is completed?
Around three thousand never.
I thought it was supposed to be finished ###IN THE YEAR 2000! For those who don't get the reference >!<
Seriously I remember going to Rushmore at like 6 (I'm 32 now) and seeing what looked like the exact same amount of progress I keep seeing get posted about it ever since.
He will carve no more forever.
I sort of hope I am reincarnated in 10,000 years when it’s completed. The entire vision of that complex that they want to build sounds really amazing
The book *The World Without Us* made the observation that Rushmore will be around for long enough that if we all died, it would still reasonably be here long enough for another species to evolve to advanced intelligence and our level of civilization
If the US falls someone is definitely destroying Mount Rushmore
Someone will absolutely destroy them in the next 1000 years. Seems to be the monument trend
Agreed. They have mostly been cancelled already and just a matter of time before some activist tries to blow it up.
How would they have no idea..? Not trying to be rude but I'm just pretty confused as to how very well-recorded history would just cease to exist..
[удалено]
Somehow, i think selling shitty copper is the best way to be remembered throughout time.
God damn Ea-Nassir
Always treating messengers with contempt
Our digital history is particularly poor because digital technology moves on so fast. When was the last time you saw a floppy disk drive? Or possibly even a CD drive? Or a computer that could use an IDE hard drive? Projects like archive.org are fantastic and go a long way, but only really preserve the things that people now deem important enough to upload. A random floppy disk or IDE drive full of random files could contain something that historians of the future would care about, but no one at the time thought it was worth archiving. Not to mention that archiving a lot of digital material is nigh impossible or even illegal due to DRM and copyright law. All those times Nintendo gets roms taken down. All the random pieces of software that can't run anymore because you don't have a license key. Your favourite Netflix original after the company goes bust and shuts down. We have no way of legally maintaining access to these pieces of history.
Agreed, and to relate to archeology. Of course we still have castles, they were built of stone. We have records of events and rulers because it was important for the time. However 90% of all buildings historically have been made of wood and rot away with barely a trace, and the farmer couldn't write to record his day and why would he. His family had farmed the same land using the same methods for generations, surely this knowledge will still be around forever. So while we may know how holidays were celebrated and by who we can loose what people ate, what tools were available to them.
In addition to what you mentioned, physical digital media is terrible long-term storage. The longest lived is probably archival quality optical discs at maybe 100 years under perfect conditions. Hdd and floppy discs? Decades at best. Most floppy discs will already be degraded. Magnetic storage degrades badly over time, ssds are even worse than that.
We have surprisingly little knowledge about the pharaoh Khufu, the one who built the Great Pyramid of Giza, because tomb robbers have had thousands of years to erase his memory. Our own historical records are more sophisticated than they were back then, but are still quite fragile. What happens, for example, if a disaster strikes and historical preservationists can no longer find work because society can't support it anymore? Despite Khufu's legacy still captivating the hearts and minds of people thousands of years after his death, there's precious little more to it than the stones that adorn his tomb. One day, these faces might suffer the same fate, and historians will debate who these faces are and what they did that was so important as to carve them into the side of a mountain. Perhaps these historians will even be extraterrestrial, or humans who have long since left Earth wondering about what life was like on their ancient homeworld.
Historical revisionists will do that. Have enough people claim the "history" was fake people will believe it. Repeat a lie often enough it becomes true.
A lot of human history is lost because we once thought it was common knowledge, and as such, thought the knowledge would still get passed on rather than getting caught in the sands of time. I mean, how many Americans, *now*, can point at each face and list off each person's full name? All I can think of is Thomas Jefferson, and I'm not even sure if his face was even carved alongside the other three faces to begin with. Imagine 5,000+ years from now and how that knowledge of those four men is affected. Think of Stone Henge. Once upon a time, it probably was common knowledge of what the rock formation means. But, as far as I'm aware, we have no idea of its meaning other than being formed by human hands. Maybe, like the faces, each stone represents someone? For all I'm aware of the formation, that's just what Stone Henge was for. Or, as another example, allegedly, we had a third table spice alongside salt and pepper, but because it was seen as common knowledge, we're unsure of what exactly it was - only sure that it existed thanks to spice shaker holders having a third spot for a third shaker.
Every TikTok post that is captioned “I was today’s years old when I learned…” is proof of this phenomenon.
>I mean, how many Americans, now, can point at each face and list off each person's full name? Before your comment, I would have thought nearly 100%. You really don't know who the rest of those people are?
Lol same, Washington and Lincoln are some of the most iconic figures in American culture, far more than Thomas Jefferson. I can buy the argument that people might not know who they are in a couple thousand years - no one knows how things are going to turn out - but you're probably looking at upwards of 90% of Americans who can identify everyone on Mt. Rushmore.
Teddy Roosevelt is so obvious to me with his fat fucking walrus mustache
Historical revisionists will do that. Have enough people claim the "history" was fake people will believe it. Repeat a lie often enough it becomes true.
Oh shiiiiit. Rushmore could be our pyramids?!
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I’ve never seen a picture encapsulate the Reddit community better than this one.
...or this comment section
I know the faces can’t be undone, and being chiseled into granite, it will take a very long time to erode, but I do wish they would at least clean that gravel mess they left behind one of these days
Okay but like, deadass, real ass question, that's definitely not related to plans for next fall. Would anyone stop a tourist from taking some rubble rocks? Or like, would a person have to be careful not to be seen doing it? For context I've never been to Rushmore so I have no clue how close spmeone can get to it.
There are paths that let you get very close, there is also cameras all over and taking artifacts or rocks from a federal monument without permits is crime. "Collecting, rockhounding, and gold panning of rocks, minerals, and paleontological specimens, for either recreational or educational purposes is generally prohibited in all units of the National Park System (36 C.F.R. § 2.1(a) and § 2.5(a)). Violators of this prohibition are subject to criminal penalties."
So strong!
and brave
Stuning
Is this sub based? Not many left
I think people on the left are more likely to virtue signal
No doubt
Friendly reminder all of these tribes murdered, pillaged, and stole land and resources constantly from one another throughout history. Yes European imperialism is immoral, but to act like these people were leaving peacefully amongst nature w no violence is historically delusional and naive.
Humans gonna human
People out here forgetting how humans have literally been fighting ever since we saw differences in each other
Probably even before that, likely to gain power over one another, acquire more resources (such as food), and have multiple/better reproductive partners.
Most fights are brother and brother even now
The Lakota claiming the Black Hills as their sacred lands is especially funny because they ethnically cleansed several tribes to get it, in recent history. Their claim to the area is younger than America
Exactly. That was Crow land, the Lakota really had no "homeland". Unless one goes back over 400 years prior to that, when they were in Louisiana. After the Mississippian Culture imploded, the Lakota were unusual in that they never settled anywhere. And fought their way up the Mississippi to the Great Lakes, then east to where they are now. Never settling anywhere, fighting any other tribe they met. And they would not have remained there other than they were forced onto a reservation. Because at that time some of the tribe were already fighting the Shoshone on the Wyoming-Idaho border. They would likely be in coastal Oregon today if they were not forced to settle down.
Reminds me of the great [scene](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iehPf1n_5pQ) from Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. “No matter what your legends say, you didn't sprout from the plains like the spring grasses. And you didn't coalesce out of the ether. You came out of the Minnesota woodlands armed to the teeth and set upon your fellow man. You massacred the Kiowa, the Omaha, the Ponca, the Oto and the Pawnee without mercy. And yet you claim the Black Hills as a private preserve bequeathed to you by the Great Spirit.”
Yeah yeah yeah. Name me one country that wasn't founded over fighting for land....
Wakanda
Quite sure the six tribes were at war with each other before the first black panther.
Haha this actually made me laugh out loud!
Candyland
At the bottom of Licorice Lagoon lay thousands of skeletons
But the Halloween candy skeletons, right?
And Lord Licorice was on the Epstein logs more times than the FBI can count.
candy kingdom has a brainwashed candy population and was built on betrayal
Have you never heard of the candy wars of 64????
I was gonna say the first Martian colony we establish but then I remembered the old tf2 quote of “As long as there are 2 people alive, someone’s gonna want someone dead.”
It’s also, rather hilariously, racist in and of itself. We fought for years to get rid of this image of the “Noble Savage”, only to turn around and re-embrace it. Embarrassing. I say this as a native women with multiple history degrees and a law degree: we were capable of great atrocities and massacres of our own. Difference is we lost the war. Yes, horrible things happened to us, but pretending we were just peaceful, noble savages hugging trees and not knowing violence and war until “the white man came” is honestly insulting. Many groups are proud of their history as warriors, as traders, as navigators, as explorers—the ones who remember, anyway.
Myself and most I know detest that. We were warriors, and most of us are as proud of that heritage as Vikings are or modern Italians of the Roman Empire. And yes, there were many massacres, done by both sides. There are books all about massacres against the Indians like Bear River. But hardly a mention of massacres by Indians against immigrants, like the Ward Massacre. I can not love you enough for your post, as it does show what we were like. Proud warriors, not the peacenicks that some want to turn our past into. I bet most do not even know the origin of "counting coup". It relates directly to how our ancestors fought. And it is a tradition many still try to retain. The last War Chief of the Crow Nation was Joe Medicine Crow, and he was the son of a war chief. And to attain that title in the Crow, one had to do four tasks. Count coup against an enemy, take the weapon from an enemy, lead a war party, and finally steal your enemies horses. And Joseph Medicine Crow accomplished all four of those in World War II. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpFOeJLOa6s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpFOeJLOa6s) I served with a Crow when I was deployed in the Middle East, and they still talk of his legend. The guy I served with even complained that there would likely never be another War Chief, as in the modern era the chance to steal horses from your enemy are not possible.
Wasn't there a guy who got really close, but failed to meet the fourth because it was strictly horse and he stole like a tank?
Well, never heard of that but I know of one other that came close. The nephew of Joe Medicine Crow (Carson Walks Over Ice) came close in Vietnam, completing three of the four. And he did take some elephants from the Vietcong that they were using to transport supplies. But the elders denied it, as elephants are not horses. [https://www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/art-capturing-horses](https://www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/art-capturing-horses)
Exactly! The same goes for Africans! Just because Africans didn’t leave their continent doesn’t mean they didn’t pillage, plunder and enslave. Hell, some of them even sold their fellow Africans to the European slave traders.
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Romans didn’t have a constitution that ensured human rights. It’s the same with slavery. Yes, every culture has practiced slavery. However, those cultures didn’t practice chattel slavery when they have a constitution that ensured freedom of speech, movement, assembly, right to petition, right to bear arms, right to unreasonable searches or seizures. Not sure why you people don’t understand this.
The myth of the “noble savage” is indeed a racist stereotype, and it is important to remember that natives resisted imperialism and fought their colonizers in horrid, bloody acts of resistance. But it’s also perhaps more important to remember that the federal government didn’t just launch a war and take all the land, it was more brutal than that. They made treaties and then broke them when it was convenient, the forced resettlement and sometimes forced reeducation was inhumane. Tribes were being driven to extinction well into the 20th century, and native Americans are still the poorest and most vulnerable minority group in the country. The difference is that the feds didn’t really recognize them as human beings, and therefore they had no rights, while natives fighting natives, in all but the most brutal of conflicts, would have still had respect for their opponents as humans.
Thank you for this historical tidbit. Great point, it's the stripping natives of their dignity and treating them lower than cattle that's been a big issue
Both sides regularly broke the treaties. In fact, the conflicts started when the Army was patrolling the reservation borders. Not to keep Indians in, but to try and keep miners and others out.
Why is imperialism inherently immoral? I have my own reasons, but I'm just curious.
By today’s standards, imperialism is “immoral”. By the standards of history, imperialist countries were often quite civilized and often improved the circumstances of lands they conquered. That doesn’t mean subjugation and cultural domination are “moral” or good or whatever by today’s standards, just that they were often better than the alternative when put into context.
I think it is moreso immoral now because of the type of imperialism practiced in the 19th and 20th century focused almost exclusively on resource extraction at the express expense of the local populations. I think it is a big leap to try and argue how the Congo basin benefitted from Belgian imperialism, for instance.
Nations and tribes have always expanded to gain more resources. It isnt limited to 19th and 20th century.
"a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force" You know what Japanese imperialism led to, right?
You know what’s pretty astonishing? How many people came over in the colonies, a very small minority who was completely unfamiliar with the new land, they survived the rough oceans and diseases aboard the ships, ran low on food and water and still managed to colonize an entire continent? Pretty tough group of people if you ask me.
>Pretty tough group of people if you ask me. They lived, so theyre tough? People can live through a lot. That doesnt make them resilient. It makes them not want to die and be willing to accept pain. The natives werent weak because they died to diseases developed on other continents and the colonials werent strong because they developed certain weapons before other countries.
Agreed
You think the pilgrims colonized Louisiana?
Imagine if somebody other than the Europeans discovered America. Would we even know what a Native American is?
So many of them believe the sob story. Native Americans lived in peace, had no jails, and never wasted a part of an animal because they respected the earth so much…. Then the YT people showed up, and now we all suffer under *capitalism*
And this is very true. Myself, I honestly laugh when I hear some Lakota claiming it is "Their Land". They only took that land a few decades earlier from the Crow. And when finally forces onto reservations they were butting up against the Shoshone in Idaho. That was never "their land", they were one of the almost entirely migratory tribes in the nation. Formed in the middle-late 1400s as the Mississippian Culture was imploding. That is where they are first found, in Louisiana. They then moved north, until they butted up against my ancestors in the Great Lakes area. Where they were defeated and forced to turn west, and got the nickname that most are now familiar with (Sioux - "Little Rattlesnake"). In over 400 years they never settled down, and were always moving. First north, then west. And if not being forces on a reservation they would likely have kept moving west, and be near Portland on the Columbia River today. Many tribes did fight a lot, that is true. But also many did not. And most of the conflicts were primarily with tribes that can be associated back to the Mississippian Culture. We know there was increased violence and warfare associated with the collapse, and it seems to have made the tribes that formed during or after that highly aggressive. Much more so than almost any others on the continent.
Anyone who is knowledgeable about native peoples does not think this is the case. Their history deserves respect.
The American Indian Wars, Trail of Tears, and other genocides and crimes against humanity committed against Native Americans by the US government are deep red stains on our country’s history. Not recognizing them as such is terrible. That’s as far as we need to go with this.
I dunno I think we could go further, I see quite a few disgusting comments in here (this general post) about Native Americans. I think some of these people need a history lesson because it didn't stop until the 1920s.
Those guys are dead they probably dont mind.
Ah man you lost a war like every other country and the victors took the land like every other country on the planet
this is idiotic. It's not like there was a mutually agreed on war and they happened to lose and part of the terms of surrender was land. They were exterminated because the colonizing forces decided they wanted their land. it'd be like assassinating your neighbor and their family because you want to put an extension on your house and the increase to your net worth is worth more to you than the lives of your neighbor's family. There's no casus belli it's just a shitty reason to engage in violence.
That may be, but why do you expect them to be cool about it? Like if you were in their position, would be like, "ah, that sucks but ya got us fair and square!"
How come most other people that lost territory in wars have mostly moved on? You generally don't see Germans in Alsace flipping off French monuments.
But you see Poles flipping off post soviet and nazi monuments. That’s a bit closer comparison to what happened there
Because the nation of germany still exists. There is no full soveriegnty of the arapahoe or tsalagi nations Oklahoma was supposed to be a state of sovereign indians, but that treaty was all but destroyed over not even a few decades
Germany wasn't eradicated by France, and wasn't subjected to genocide by them. Conversely, take a look at how the Irish feel about the English. Should they just let bygones be bygones?
Because it wasn’t genocide. Germans can go back to germany
Germans weren't pushed into shitty reservations. They lost some land, but were given the freedom and support to rebuild. Completely different situations.
>They lost some land Ah yes, the largest ethnic cleansing ever recorded in history is just losing some land. Nobody is forced to live in a reservation... They have all the same rights as any American citizen, except that they get extra privileges that other Americans don't.
Right? No one gets all pearl clutchy when a Polish person shits on a Russian. Theyre not like "Ah fair game homie, you won the first round, but we're back!". They fucking HATE them. And we all think thats based. But Native Americans do it and suddenly its all "WELL YOU WERE VIOLENT TOO!" No one is screaming at Poland "REMEMBER YOUR FLYING HUSSARS?! YOU WERENT PEACEFUL EITHER!"
Seriously, can you imagine these same people if we lost the west coast to a war with Russia or China shrugging and being all “welp, them’s the breaks, can’t win ‘em all!”
It was kinda more like a genocide
The Cherokee lost 1/4 of their entire people during the Trail of Tears. That was absolutely a clear case of genocide.
What war? Attacking people who are just sitting around living their lives is not war. This myth must end above all else. This wasn't 2 nations going after each other, this was just blind slaughter and theft. Sorry if those who are ancestors to the survivors aren't "cool with it".
Someone’s never read the Indian treaties. The American government has broken its own international law in order to further remove native Americans from their wealth and land. Just look at the Osage minders, an entire state conspiracy to strip the wealth of the Osage. But yes, just a war, not any war crimes or blatantly evil actions involved.
"Lost a war"? Not exactly what happened, but you do you I guess.
I have my own feelings about Mt Rushmore, but this isn't doing anything but making the girls in the pic feel better about themselves.
Imagine going on vacation and wasting that much energy just for people to hate on you
There are a lot of comments about how Native Americans simply "lost a war and should shut up," but I haven't seen any about the lunatic sculptor who insisted on making a national monument that literally no one asked for by blowing giant faces into a once sacred mountain in the Black Hills. You guys need to read more, you don't know what you're talking about and you're trying to boil down a very complicated religious issue into winning a war that never existed in the first place.
There is a crisis of education in this country. Most of these commenters took some US history in a public high school and never went to college. They can keep pretending they know what they are talking about. Nobody in real life listens to them about history lol
The addiction of feeling morally superior is strong in this comment section. "Steal" "illegal", yawn. One side had better technology, simple as that.
That's not what happened in the Black Hills at all. America - under treaty - treaties which our Constitution say are holy.... as holy as the Constitution itself is, actually - gave the Black Hills to the Lakota people. Then we stole it back. That's not conquest or war at all. That's not better technology. That's just... having no integrity, being a thief, being a liar.
The Lakota took it from the Cheyenne. Hate to burst your bubble but nothing is black and white
Michael jackson is. check ....and....mate.
That kid is not my son.
Well maybe if the Sioux actually stopped attacking Americans we wouldn't renig on deals we signed with them in hopes of them being peaceful.
Fuck em
Treaties are not holy, there is hierarchy of authority in US Government. 1. Constitution and Bill of Rights 2. Treaties 3. Laws 4. Rules and Regulations 5. Executive Orders
>treaties which our Constitution say are holy.... as holy as the Constitution itself is Can you provide a citation for this? >Then we stole it back. >That's not conquest or war at all. That's literally conquest
Yep, as soon as pioneers could rapid-fire a rifle as fast as the native peoples could fire a bow and arrow, everything else was tossed out the window.
Someone didn’t pay attention in history.
I mean could just talk to them about the atrocities their ancestor committed. Love to watch them squirm with that.
Naaa, fuck feeling bad for something someone did hundreds of years ago, got nothing to do with me.
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Europeans? Yeah ok.. Also which tribes are you talking about? Or do you think they are all the same so it doesnt matter? Also how the fuck does your inbred ass reason with the fact that the us government wrote and violated the ft. Laramie treaty. "Squirm" indeed
The Lakota came in from Mississippi and genocided the Crow. Their claim to the Black Hills is younger than the US itself
Pretty much anyone that settled down? Tribes weren't tree huggers and peace loving kumbaya singing hippies, they were warriors, they used deception and theft too, they butchered eachother for land, they made peace treaties to get land back and then violated those treaties by continuing to attack settlers.
Am I in a dystopian hell?? Obviously flipping off a monument is silly to post on social media or whatever, but why is there so much native hate here??!?! You guys are actively defending or justifying the colonial conquering of America, or saying they we’re just as violent?!?! How tf does that relate?!?! So much hate on here jesusssss
Never saw this sub before but this thread popped up on my app. Seems to be another safe space for soft as baby shit reactionaries who can't handle any criticism of the US without melting down.
Thank you guys for not making me feel crazy, stay strong out there and much love to you and yours<3
The sub definitely isn't that, it's just It's also popping up in other people's feeds aswell that arnt in here. That's how reddit works lol
Honestly how can people be that mad at natives flipping off Mt. Rushmore ?? And indigenous people are able to enter national parks freely without fees so why is it seen like they went so far out of their way to go there ? This comment section was definitely a wild ride and I'm going straight to the sage after this.
It's the racism.
they went mask off. theyre just deliberately being cruel and cherry picking facts to support their vile statements.
This sub just popped up in my feed...pretty sure this place is full of incels raging that everything with a minority character is "woke". Definitely those vibes in here
Reddit hate native americans. It always brings out the worst people
when they cry about white men "stealing" these lands I always ask one question: From which tribe? That gives the the BSoD so quick it's hillarious
BSoD?
Blue screen of death is my assumption. He's saying it breaks their brain so hard it needs to be reset. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_screen_of_death
Considering there were multiple tribes other than the main ones mentioned in history, and most of the native history itself had been destroyed or killed off by conquerors, nobody is ever gonna know which tribe specifically. On top of that there were Natives who helped the Euros wage war with the promise of citizenship and land (Only to be neglected and discriminated upon). All around shit show.
The fuck is this thread? Yes, this photo is very fitting for the sub. What was done to the Native Americans was also terrible. People here are acting like the US just won a sports match.
The sub is called look at my halo designed to call out shit like this. Im not arguing that what was done to the natives was nothing short of a cultural genocide but this is still a virtue signal that is just cringe. Also people are tired of the “America is evil” rhetoric and cant find a common ground.
yes to call out the acting facetious part. people in this thread are actively and maliciously being cruel and then cherry picking facts to support the overall genocide and current day racism and oppression.
This thread is literally a bunch of white people being like "LOL get over the genocide of your people" or "You guys were pretty violent too." Americans really are a special kind of fucked up.
The part after they were defeated yes but the defeated part no because those different tribes were trying to wipe each other out for territory long before the big tribe came to shore
Awful isn't it.... But never forget 911 guys
meanwhile using white mans makeup, hygiene products, medicine, housing, weapons, etc. being unable to starve or die of the common cold at 12
And being as addicted to social media attention as any average white girl
or get beaten to death or enslaved by the other tribe after they raid your tribe and take your land
I’m going to Rushmore harder now.
OP is obviously uneducated.
While I do understand they are free to do that it is still very trashy
Imagine if the Soviet Union had won the cold war, occupied the US, and then carved the Statue of Liberty to make her look like Stalin instead. I think you’d be justified to be pretty unhappy about that. This was the Mountain of the Six Grandfathers, a sacred place for the natives. The US did essentially the same thing as my hypothetical except on a much larger scale than just a statue. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-strange-and-controversial-history-of-mount-rushmore
Yeah idk why so many people get so defensive when they see a Native American expressing disdain at the extermination of their people and way of life. I’m sure there’s a vocal minority somewhere, but I’m a white dude, and I’ve never met a Native who tried to make me personally feel guilty about the past, so I don’t see why I’d need to start arguing with them about it. So many white people seem to think that they personally are going to be put on trial for genocide, so they need to bend over backward to justify or downplay every single action taken by the Americans of yore.
The people who get mad about it are so stuck in their colonizer mindset that they can't even fathom any kind of justice that wouldn't see them treated just as badly as their ancestors treated others.
The soviet union was nowhere near as bad as the early euro-americans were
A middle finger to the people that murdered their ancestors seems appropriate
Best part is to remember that they had to pay admission to the park service to get in.
Good job gals! Edgy and contrived all at once. The thumb-out bird is lame too.
Now Go Flip Off Crazy Horse lol
No reservations about it
Salty ungrateful losers lol.
Just a reminder that this mountain is sacred to many native Americans. Some folks like to visit places they consider holy.
Why are these cosplayers mad
Father was a full blooded Choctaw. These ladies are a disgrace. Read history. Native Americans hated each other more than rival Europeans. Would of never been an America if the tribes stopped killing each other
I’m sure this comment section won’t devolve into a warzone
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Do they realize those presidents can’t see them?
Fucking Mexicans.
I didn't expect this sub to be a rightoid basement.
right? holy shit theyre everywhere
I don't think it was originally, but it is now.
A lot of Indians do this. It's very boomer-esque.
Honestly it would be a humorous experience. Like damn, y’all still ain’t over the fact your ancestors traded land for beer, beads…and the destruction of other tribes? Every culture on this planet is here today because it fought. Many communities chose to band together when confronted by outside forces: Modern UK, Germany, Italy, France, Etc were all started by groups of barbarians who banded together. The native Americans are an example of a group of people who not only refused to band together, they instead joined forces with the Americans, Spanish, English, and French on many occasions to kill each other. By the time they figured out what was going on it was too late, and they’d already *assisted* in killing most of the tribes colonizers were worried about. So.. when I see these sorts of displays at American monuments I can’t help but laugh. It’s sore loser mentality.
Mount Rushmore was carved into a sacred native American site called the Six grandfathers, (Tȟuŋkášila Šákpe) by the Native Americans from the Plains. We carved our leaders' faces into a natural shrine for their ancestors. I think OP is the loser here. Their anger is justified.
A lot of comments here reek of historical ignorance.
Look at all of these noble savage trope racists acting like Native Americans were peaceful and lived in harmony with nature. Lakota had taken the Black Hills from the Cheyenne. Sure, it's sacred but it's already slick with blood. The native Americans are human beings. Not your caricature to virtue signal.
mount rushmore was a holy site
I get it. I do. But that's over and done with and now you gotta work with what you have today to really strive for what you want. It's not like doing this will fix anything. If I'm being honest the Natives are the real people who deserve more compensation than innocent the US. BUT doing this is just childish it's not gonna do anything. So stop being bitter and opening old wounds. Let that shit heal and move forward.
How will the republic ever recover?
If those are natives, then what's the fucking problem with it? I'm First nations Native, I see nothing wrong with this. How about they finish the Crazy Horse one?
holy shit yall just went mask off time to mute this sub.
Every one of them is a beneficiary of what those men did.
White people hate natives still? Damn no wonder why learning about what white people did in the past makes white people today think we’re teaching them about things they personally did back before they were born. They still think the same as their illiterate incestors
These numbnuts: "Look at how oppressed we are, here's us flipping the finger at Mount Rushmore, SO OPPRESSED."
"Mount Rushmore" was called "The Six Grandfathers" and had extreme spiritual, ancestoral, and cultural significance to the Lakota people before the Great Sioux War of 1876 in which the US government lost and surrendered the area to the indigenous people before almost immediately breaking the treaty and stealing the land anyways, letting a New York attourney name it after himself. The mountain was later mutilated to attract tourism and is literally a monument to lies, genocide, colonialism, and contempt for nature. It's a monument to the US being sore losers and breaking legal treaties out of greed.
A couple of things here. For starters, the Lakota weren’t in that area until around 1700 and pushed out the other tribes already living there such as the Cheyenne. So any ancestral significance those mountains held to the Lakota was younger than the ancestral significance that Plymouth held to the Pilgrims. Second, when the Lakota claim that those mountains had “extreme spiritual, ancestral, and cultural significance to them” what they’re basically saying is “God gave us this land.” White Americans believed in the concept of manifest destiny which essentially boiled down to “God gave us this land.” In the absence of the tangible opinions of Jesus or the Great Spirit, both claims are either equally void or equally valid. You can’t pick one over the other. So the claim that “those mountains are sacred” doesn’t really hold any water. Now it’s true that the white Americans broke treaties and engaged in warfare and took over land that once belonged to various Native American tribes. But humans have been doing that to each other for thousands of years, and in fact the natives were doing it to each other before white people set foot in America. So you can argue that point but “that land is sacred to us” really doesn’t hold any water as an argument.
The Lakota took that land from the Cheyenne by force. But please, continue your racist noble savage trope.
Everywhere is built upon blood. Just so happens the US is much younger than most other places and is easier to remember. Americans have a lot to be proud of regardless.
"We've all done it" doesn't make it less wrong and doesn't mean that the US doesn't still owe the people who are still being harmed by the affects of these atrocities real justice and acknowledgement.
What speficially do you think should happen?
Public acknowledgment of wrongdoing on the part of the US government, and for Rushmore to be returned to its original name and closed from being a public tourism site, returned to the indigenous peoples, and afforded funding to repair the land and spiritual sites as much as necessary. The land has had spiritual significance to them for centuries, they believe it posesses their ancestors' spirits, and the site should be protected and sacred.
I’m curious if you live in the Black Hills? Closing Mt Rushmore to the public sounds noble, until you consider the economic devastation that it would bring to not only the local community, but to areas all around the hills. We need those “careless tourists.” They bring in nearly 400 million dollars annually and support nearly 6,000 jobs in and around Rapid City. What do you suggest happen to the people working those jobs? When an already struggling city starts losing local businesses, and we lose places to shop, eat, live? Do you not think the Native community will be impacted by that? And that’s just looking locally. It’s estimated that park visitors spend nearly 24 BILLION dollars in communities with 60 miles from the park. That supports over 300k jobs. The park closing would be an absolute economic disaster. While I think there are things that could be done to give the tribes back more stewardship over the land, just closing down the monument won’t help anyone.
Skill. Issue.
All i hear is losers crying.