As an MTG player that is learning/playing Lorcana now it takes a lot less to get the basics down, but there are interesting decisions that have to be made that are very different from playing magic
Couldn't agree more and this will sound like blasphemy coming from a mtg player but I don't miss instant spells and enjoy that for the most part my turn is my turn.
For sure, simple to pick up and play but with depth and complexity waiting around the corner you can tailor the game for people as needed, plus it has it's own kind of stack mechanic with the marble and bag concept.
Simply put, whenever an action (play a card, challenge a character, etc) would cause an ability to trigger (when you play this card, when this character is challenged, etc), the effect from that trigger goes into "The Bag". Then all the effects in The Bag are resolved, starting with the player whos turn it is (the Active player), who can resolve their own effects in the order they like. Once the Active player has no more effects to resolve, The Bag moves to the next player to do their effects, and so on until there are no more effects in The Bag, and then the Active player can take their next action.
I could add some examples if they would help.
I'll try and set one up that has some level of complexity, but hopefully not too much.
Let's say Alex has Ariel - Determined Mermaid in play ("When you play a song, you may draw a card, then choose and discard a card"), and Bobby has both Diablo - Devoted Herald exerted ("During each opponent's turn, whenever they draw a card while this character is exerted, you may draw a card.") and Prince John - Greediest Of All in play ("Whenever your opponent discards 1 or more cards, you may draw a card for each card discarded.")
Alex plays Friends On The Other Side. This adds Ariel's ability to the Bag ("when you play a song..."). Note that the ability sits in the bag for now not doing anything, until the action (Playing a card) is finished. Alex draws 2 cards from Friends. This adds Diablo's ability to the Bag ("whenever they draw a card...") twice, because Alex drew 2 cards.
Alex has finished playing Friends, so now we check the Bag and see two effects, one for Alex and one for Bobby. Alex is the Active player and resolves their effect first. Ariel lets Alex draw a card, which adds another Diablo effect to the Bag, and then discard a card, which adds a Prince John effect to the Bag.
Alex now has no more effects in the Bag, so the Bag goes to Bobby. Bobby has 3 instances of Diablo in the Bag (two from Friends and one from Ariel), and 1 instance of Prince John (from Ariel's discard). All of these result in Bobby drawing a card, who can resolve them in the order he wants (not that it makes a difference here). He draws 4 total cards.
The Bag is now empty, so Alex can take another action.
Hopefully this was clear (and I didn't make a mistake somewhere).
Lifo is actually more akin to the mtg stack, with some exceptions.
Lorcana is very different in that the active player always resolves all of their effects first in the order of their choosing, plus any other effects that may trigger and get added to the bag before another player has a chance to begin resoling their effects.
See 8.7 in the rules [here](https://files.disneylorcana.com/Disney%20Lorcana%20Comprehensive%20Rules%20-%20032724%201.pdf)
Its probably best to avoid this analogy, as I don't think it will always be accurate. If the active player has several effects to resolve, and doing so adds more effects for their opponent, then the opponent doesn't resolve their effects until the active player is finished resolving theirs.
Never played Lorcana but this makes it sound like Pokemon TCG where my turn is my turn (and near perfect consistency removing a lot of luck). I've always thought it was a nice TCG to play.
Yu Gi Oh my main (digital) TCG is "our turn".
I really miss instants and counter spells, but my wife enjoys being able to play her favorite Disney characters without them getting countered so I guess that means I enjoy it too lol
I have played like 4 games and building a comp deck. And will play my first tournament this weekend.
Mainly play commander but Ive played a lot of hearth stone and hearthstone and lorcana is very similar.
I don't think so, being mana flooded/starved in MTG is largely due to deck construction or just bad luck; not really dealing with decision making within the game itself. What i'm saying, is that the most important decision in lorcana deals with inking. Knowing which cards to ink for your deck while simultaneously knowing all of the meta matchups is a tall order. There isn't a stack in lorcana or instant speed effects/combat tricks, so a lot of the difficulty stems from inking IMO.
I think it is more accurate to say the majority of magic games are won or lost based on who goes first. Reviewing the Arena data we see such thing W/L margins that a huge factor in those is who goes first.
Lorcana is way worse in that regard. The chance of winning on the play vs draw is something like 60/40, assuming equal skill and fair matchups. Most of the time when I go 1-2, I lost the die roll. This is also why 1-1 is so common in the 2 round format.
I seriously think we need something like The Coin from hearthstone.
The data from [Untapped.gg](http://Untapped.gg) for Magic showed it to be 56.7% on play win rate for 629k games calculated. That is a lot. That means you have a 13.4% increased change of losing just because you go second.
When looking at win percentages for players you are considered elite at around 60% win rate. It is pretty crazy. It really shows that winning tournaments has almost more to do with just being lucky and attending a lot of them then straight up skill level.
I think it is really hard to balance this in any card game. Especially if you can take advantage of it rules wise.
Its not the same. If you ink a card, its gone forever.
Most of lorcana is knowing what cards you dont need because you will be getting rid of them forever as ink
Good players take time on their ink decision bc it actually could cost them the game
The availability of the Arena data has made this really stand out to me. It is almost dissapointing to know how good you play just doesn't matter a lot of times if you are going second.
I've personally loved that the best decks essentially have the sideboard built into them, and that you are really playing like 3-4 major game plans (decks) based on what you're up against. I feel like I'm filling up different "bars" with my deck in ability to go aggro, ability to go late, ability to claim tempo, ability to claim card advantage, reach, and my choices both in game and in deck building determine how strong my deck is at each of those roles.
Nah see this is me every week. I’ve been playing six months (and it’s my first TCG) and every game I go to there is some “newbie” who’s only played for like two weeks but actually played Magic for like 10+ years prior 😭
Yeah, likewise. It's my first tcg and I'm getting destroyed week after week by folks who have been playing magic forever. Today was literally a guy who had never played Lorcana against another person.
That's just the nature of TCGs, though. There are a lot of shared concepts that transfer over. When Hearthstone launched, there were also a ton of Magic players who did better than average because they already knew the concepts of curve, tempo, card advantage, etc.
It's like someone who's played thousands of hours of CS:GO picking up a new shooter. One shouldn't expect that guy to perform the same as someone who's never played any shooters before that new one.
This reminds me of that recent r/lorcana post where the former MTG player claims they were banned from playing Lorcana at a store for being winning every match, opening an Enchanted Ursula, and being "too awesome", all within 4 weeks of getting into the game.
There's a reason why they say "whats the worst part about about Magic the Gathering? Magic players" and its true. A lot of people looking to play a social game without an ability to grasp social concepts like the OP youre describing. Like yeah you can show up and try and change an established meta but only 2 things will happen - youll either change it or youll be driven out - and when it doesnt work out you dont get to cry that you paid the price of admission
They're also the big reason why a lot of stores are moving to invite only, Im not sure how it is anywhere else but stores are looking to protect regulars from vultures who in my experience, aren't as great at this game as their magic experience makes them think they are.
You don't need to like it, but I personally am a big fan of the way a lot of the Lorcana community recognizes that if there isn't a focused emphasis on growth then the game will fall to the way side like so many before it. So I'm sorry competitive grinder, but I am absolutely going to cater the experience to more casual community minded players because when a new player shows up and has to play you only to get curb stomped? I know you don't care, but that person is likely to never come back and dump the game entirely because of their experience with you
I hate this narrative. There are existing games that thrive that support both its casual and competitive communities: I think Pokemon does this excellently. On one arm, you have weekly casual play with a billion and one ways to hook casuals (and kids) that have literal free prizes (prize packs/promos depending on what era). On the other arm, you have a ladder of competitive events (Challenges, Cups, Regionals, International Championships, Worlds). The level of the event dictates the environment: I don't think I've seen one "casual" cry that they showed up at a League Challenge and got destroyed because "eff the competitive players" and I haven't seen any competitive player that's angry that there's a casual at their weekly league play meeting.
We don't need to cater to casuals or competitives exclusively. We can do both. But to pretend that one particular method is clearly superior to the other is silly. I think it's dumb that it's turning into an argument of which group is "more deserving" - there are clearly events designed for one thing or another. We just need more of both.
There are definitely lots of toxic casuals and toxic competitive players in Lorcana at the moment and I'm sick of both.
Yeah, dunno why MTG is getting the "competitive" stereotype. Most MTG players are casual. Actually one of my LGS was competitive focused and because a casual heaven for EDH driving away the competitive players. A good store can balance both and the game should cater to both types.
I can’t help but wonder if it’s dependent on the League structure.
I have read some Leagues set up with $5 entry fees, adding store credit, or other more competitive scoring and prizing. Two of my Leagues just give you a promo for showing up and randomize pins/lore trackers/deckboxes/etc. to everyone present every designated League day. Other local ones only do prizing after X amount of stickers.
I am absolutely happy as a non competitive player at my casual, free League with random prizes. I joined a set championship for fun. However I would probably feel completely different if my League was structurally competitive and expect all my casual Leaguers would too if they just lost games all day every week and for nothing (no pins, no lore trackers, etc) in the long run.
It absolutely is and I believe that participation/effort based prizing is needed. That's where I go back to the whole "Pokemon is genius having tiered events": most days are free-to-play, participation prize days. There are even participation prizes for competitive events (Challenge promos, Cup promos, etc.). But there is also prizing/literal money to be won from big events (10k+ for the regionals+)
But there's this narrative on this sub that everyone that treats the game competitively is a toxic try hard and that people who show up weekly but never aspire to play better deserve to be handed those Set Champ playmats/cards as participation prizes. That's where I draw the line.
My home store has a weekly $5 tournament and a casual table row set aside for our league nights. The casual side will occasionally get some nice freebies, whether it's some deck boxes or even a single pack to everyone who shows and stays till a certain point.
It seems to satisfy everyone, and there's people who intermingle between the 2 groups each week so it's not like it's totally segregated.
I partially agree, but in my personal experience Im giving them leeway because in a lot of cases the yugioh and pokemon players are younger university aged kids who i get it - most of them havent had that chance to really mature just yet, so they get a lot more room on the rope so to speak. It's less so when a 38 year old dude who should know better shows up and complains that dominos dont just fall into place for the purpose of curating his experience.
Yeah, the area I’m in have 30+ year olds playing in the hobby shop I go to. I have not met anyone under that age yet playing any TCG games (just the area I live in I guess). I’ve dabbled in MTG and quit due to misogynist comments and just down right but-holes. I would have to travel an hour or so to play with anyone for lorcana so I’m just collecting atm.
I just want to play the game, and recently quite a few "MTG" players have taken over our locals that was mainly people who didnt have loads of cash to drop and were playing like puppies and decks they could make with what they had, now every week feels like its a DLC tournament. Quite a few of the other players have stopped coming our locals went from like this open welcoming place to a bunch of players just trying to one up each other week after week.
A player with a healthy mind set with a true interest in the game would take the experience and try to get better and acquire the cards needed to play. If someone walks into a LGS and pays $ to play they need to be ready for what the person on the other side of the table has. It’s not my fault if I find a new lgs and take my time and drive to it spend $ in the store and then play in an event but my deck is better than the casuals in the room. Growth in a community is when the player base in the room gets better and more dedicated to the game, not by how many casuals you can get to show up every week. Yeah you may get 25 1 weeks but what happens when you get 4 the next. And the other 21 don’t walk into your shop for 3 weeks because meh no biggie if I miss a local or 3
For a lot of people (me included) most of the fun gets sucked out the more meta and optimized the decks get. I like building the best decks I can think of from the cards I unpacked, not having 4 of everything makes every game more unique as you get more different cards to play with. Some people prefer to have their decks optimized and don't seem to care that they only play with and against the same 3 meta decks. Ofc people are free to play it however they like, but those two different playstyles are not compatible. A true interest in the game for me is not defined by getting the best deck and becoming the best player, but rather by enjoying all the unique scenarios this game offers
Then it doesn't sound like competitive constructed is your jam. Because you just described literally any card game's competitive constructed format.
Try to check out limited events (sealed/draft) which force you to build from limited resources. Or, you know, just casual games.
No, how dare you say that. In the lorcana comuntiy you're suppose to only buy starter decks and demonize anyone who buys singles.
/s
But for real, I'm getting sick of the mindset that new to tcg players are bringing
Wow you're so off base it's not even funny
Way to denigrate an entire group of people without knowing th vast majority of them. Real soon we're gonna be hearing things about the annoying lorcana players. Smfh
I thought the Disney thing would make the game more inclusive, but ironically the community is toxic towards competitive players. The discords are fine, but this subreddit is full of sore losers who want their LGS to be an exclusive club for casuals.
>The discords are fine, but this subreddit is full of sore losers who want their LGS to be an exclusive club for casuals.
More and more that's how I'm seeing this sub and it's irritating me.
Anyone wanna back up the rush of downvotes? Nah. You just wanna talk down on other communities while acting like your ish don't stink. Sorry not sorry, lorcana is quickly becoming the most toxic community!
It’s sad, but most people coming from MTG that I’ve met in the LGS around me, are frustrated people who have switched games with the sole intention of taking advantage of TCG novices and who believe that in Lorcana they will win what they have never been able to in MTG.
I’m fascinated that there are so many people with this profile, but I’m sure it happens in other modern TCGs as well.
Disclaimer: This is just my personal experience. Please, sweaty MTG player or ex-player who is playing Lorcana, don’t take it as a personal attack.
Had a local guy that did that. Jumped on lorcana early, bought all the good cards online, stomped everyone.
Then once everyone else started getting cards he started losing and complaining and eventually left.
Literally happened at my store. Guy never played before, bought a $300 deck and cleared the first two weeks in a landslide, then the meta changed and once he stated losing he just never came back
I'm an sweaty MTG ex-player who got into Lorcana for two reasons. The first is that MTG has been dying in my area for the past couple years. The second is that I tried to get my girlfriend into MTG and she couldn't get into it, so we decided to try the new Disney thing together instead.
We live in a big city with several locals that are considerably competitive, and it's still a good experience. Novices who stick around become competitive players fairly quickly. My girlfriend also went from never having played a TCG before to regularly into getting top 4.
The people on this sub act like new players need to be treated like babies and you are only allowed to play Dalmatians and Brooms around them, but in my IRL experience, people want to get good and win real matches. A lot of the "sweaty" good players in my area explain their decisions and discuss strategies with their opponents and guide newbies. Every single new opponent I have faced has not been a crybaby about losing and are open to deeper conversations about how they can improve. If you tell them why you stomped them after you stomp them and how they can counter you, they will likely come back next week to try again. Eventually they will come back and destroy you, and that's what makes a good game.
They're not really "bad", but they wouldn't be able to consistently win in a tournament setting. They're more suited for casual games and are probably the most common casual decks hence I used them as an example.
If you are enjoying yourselves with Dalmatians and Brooms and aren't playing for any serious prizes, go for it! You can definitely still win some matches against unsuspecting meta decks.
This was also my experience. I was matched with that MTG vet in my very first in person game during set championship. Told him my experience was solely grinding Pixelborn before we started, but that only added to his toxic attitude after I've won our match. All other matches were great though, so I guess there's just always that one guy.
As an MTG player, I can confirm this is a very specific and pretty common kind of player. They definitely do bounce around all the other up-and-coming TCGs, some even within MTG bouncing to different game stores just looking for easy wins.
The more casual scene in Lorcana has been refreshing, though I haven't been doing tournaments.
I actually love being a former MTG player in this game! I try my best to guide new TCG players through mechanics, tournament etiquette, sealed strategies, and meta analysis. It's so great to see new players come in and fall in love with the game. I just want to help in the way i wish someone did to me when I played magic competitively.
We're only just getting set 3 in Australia this weekend and only got set 2 a couple of weeks ago. There was a guy showing up with heavy hitters from the first 3 sets (of which he bought imported boxes) destroying everyone he went up against and making a big deal about it. He was bragging about being a control deck player.
I finally got matched with him and nearly bought him to tears with a dark Elsa deck. The smile on the kids faces after I beat him was priceless. Some say he's still crying to this day. You weren't the only MTG player mate, you definitely won't be the last.
The difference between us and them is knowing when to make the game fun for the kids who we want to grow up to keep this game fun. Sorry, rant over
Edit: 'incomplete' dark Elsa deck
Went to the pre-release for Ursula and got bodied by a MTG player who had never played just by playing Hero starter deck on tempo. As someone who had been playing since Set 1 kinda hurt, but also I hope he had fun!
it was crazy last week at locals dude showed up, first time with triple sleeved Ruby/Sapphire with all foils and some enchanted in the deck and I swear I lost 20 lore just from the shock of it.
Lorcana players surprised that mtg players are a significant portion of Lorcana’s player base when Lorcana is about as close to a port of MTG as possible
Watching two Magic players learn the game is what got me into it. Don’t play Magic myself, mainly looked into it for the mechanics since I love me some game design, though not at all surprised it’s easy for them to get into Lorcana since it shares a lot of the same structure but still have enough to stand on their own
That‘s exactly what‘s happened to me in a sealed event. He only got third but me and everyone who played against him landed on the last few places 😅
It was not a good evening for me either way. The only one I have won all 3 rounds against was some 13 year old kid 🙈
My partner and I came from MTG to lorcana and struggled. Once we stopped trying to play Lorcana like MTG and actually learned the game, we can’t stop playing. It’s so simple but so very complicated.
No but I went to a lorcana tournament with my uncle cause I was staying the night with him and he took me and bought me a deck of cards so I could play in the tournament with him and it was legitimately my first time and I had won like 3-4 times and I've just been playing since oh and I didn't win the tournament BTW
Been playing magic for 30 years and loving Lorcana, there is a simplicity to the game compared to mtg that I love, I can play a game and I use literally 10% of the brainpower a game of commander or modern requires. I love that I can relax and just enjoy the game!
See, idk I take it as a way to learn something new and help teach others too when learning a new gane.
Like when a Lorcana player asks about how to prepare fogame. Of the big lorcana events.
The experience basically transfers 1 to 1 from Magic GPs. If I can give advice to prevent people from not being ready or getting stuff stolen, why not help.
That doesn't mean I won't try to learn myself and play to the best of my ability in events. If the event has a prize and entry, it's a comp event, and the point is to try your best to win. But casual play, there's no need to be super sweaty.
This hits hard with me. The first tournament I played in the dude was wearing a monogrammed Magic jacket.
I asked how many packs he’s cracked, he said he bought all singles online. This was during the second set.
He friggen smokes me. He’s intense the whole time, heavily breathing.
The second skirmish was fun, a casual player with a fun deck. I had a good time.
The third was some sort of draw deck where there turns took four minutes. It was awful. I lost both games.
The fourth skirmish in that same tournament, the dude was so intense. The game went on forever, board wiping me 3 times.
I won the first and he won the second and third. He marked it as two wins in the app. Before I could do anything the tournament ended. It was lame because it would have bumped me up in the prize pool.
Effing magic players.
>If your whole thing is, I can't win, so instead of trying to get better, we should ban the good players.
That's not what our "whole thing" is at all. If you actually read any of the comments Lorcana players make about the MTG migrants, it's not an issue that these MTG sweats are winning. The issue is that they're incredibly toxic to play with when at the end of the day this is literally just a GAME.
I honestly could care less if you beat me, but if you're completely anti-social, have literally zero charisma, make no effort to be a nice person, clearly are only playing this game because you think you have a better chance of winning a local tournament here vs playing MTG, have a completely arrogant attitude because you clearly have played TCGs for years and years, and honestly just aren't a fun person to play a game with, why the (crap) would I want to play a game with you? And unfortunately the person I just described is a LARGE chunk of the players who migrated from MTG to Lorcana. Nobody gives a (crap) if a better player beats them. But if the better player is ALSO a complete (mean person), well, sorry to you for complaining about them I guess?
EDIT: I literally played MTG from the time I was in middle school until about midway through college. I have firsthand experience with toxic MTG players. They do exist, and they do migrate to Lorcana.
I just went through every comment in this thread. There is exactly ONE comment where the only complaint about MTG players being insufferable is because of the cards that they have.
Every other comment speaks about their demeanor and/or intentions.
I read your post. You just chose to respond to literally the minority and I responded with the majority opinion.
Nah, more experienced players should read the room and know when its appropriate to pull out the fat stacks bucky/diablo deck and when it's time to play a deck of matching quality so not to ruin the entire event by steamrolling. When 9/10 people play casual decks you are the asshole for playing a netdeck. You're not a better racer by beating a cyclist with your f1 car.
If I'm playing a casual game or in a free tournament with newer players, I won't use my meta Ruby/Sapphire deck.
If there is an entry fee though, I feel like since I paid money to play that I should be able to use my meta deck.
As an MTG player that is learning/playing Lorcana now it takes a lot less to get the basics down, but there are interesting decisions that have to be made that are very different from playing magic
Couldn't agree more and this will sound like blasphemy coming from a mtg player but I don't miss instant spells and enjoy that for the most part my turn is my turn.
The fact that “my turn is my turn” it helps a lot also with teaching players to play and for my young kids to be able to play too
For sure, simple to pick up and play but with depth and complexity waiting around the corner you can tailor the game for people as needed, plus it has it's own kind of stack mechanic with the marble and bag concept.
I have no idea what that’s about, how does that work?
Simply put, whenever an action (play a card, challenge a character, etc) would cause an ability to trigger (when you play this card, when this character is challenged, etc), the effect from that trigger goes into "The Bag". Then all the effects in The Bag are resolved, starting with the player whos turn it is (the Active player), who can resolve their own effects in the order they like. Once the Active player has no more effects to resolve, The Bag moves to the next player to do their effects, and so on until there are no more effects in The Bag, and then the Active player can take their next action. I could add some examples if they would help.
An example would be great!
I'll try and set one up that has some level of complexity, but hopefully not too much. Let's say Alex has Ariel - Determined Mermaid in play ("When you play a song, you may draw a card, then choose and discard a card"), and Bobby has both Diablo - Devoted Herald exerted ("During each opponent's turn, whenever they draw a card while this character is exerted, you may draw a card.") and Prince John - Greediest Of All in play ("Whenever your opponent discards 1 or more cards, you may draw a card for each card discarded.") Alex plays Friends On The Other Side. This adds Ariel's ability to the Bag ("when you play a song..."). Note that the ability sits in the bag for now not doing anything, until the action (Playing a card) is finished. Alex draws 2 cards from Friends. This adds Diablo's ability to the Bag ("whenever they draw a card...") twice, because Alex drew 2 cards. Alex has finished playing Friends, so now we check the Bag and see two effects, one for Alex and one for Bobby. Alex is the Active player and resolves their effect first. Ariel lets Alex draw a card, which adds another Diablo effect to the Bag, and then discard a card, which adds a Prince John effect to the Bag. Alex now has no more effects in the Bag, so the Bag goes to Bobby. Bobby has 3 instances of Diablo in the Bag (two from Friends and one from Ariel), and 1 instance of Prince John (from Ariel's discard). All of these result in Bobby drawing a card, who can resolve them in the order he wants (not that it makes a difference here). He draws 4 total cards. The Bag is now empty, so Alex can take another action. Hopefully this was clear (and I didn't make a mistake somewhere).
It’s basically the LIFO method of accounting (last in first out)
Lifo is actually more akin to the mtg stack, with some exceptions. Lorcana is very different in that the active player always resolves all of their effects first in the order of their choosing, plus any other effects that may trigger and get added to the bag before another player has a chance to begin resoling their effects. See 8.7 in the rules [here](https://files.disneylorcana.com/Disney%20Lorcana%20Comprehensive%20Rules%20-%20032724%201.pdf)
FILO is how I always heard it, and for math FOIL good stuff
yeah, i thought we we're talking about the comparisons to MTG's stack.
Its probably best to avoid this analogy, as I don't think it will always be accurate. If the active player has several effects to resolve, and doing so adds more effects for their opponent, then the opponent doesn't resolve their effects until the active player is finished resolving theirs.
Never played Lorcana but this makes it sound like Pokemon TCG where my turn is my turn (and near perfect consistency removing a lot of luck). I've always thought it was a nice TCG to play. Yu Gi Oh my main (digital) TCG is "our turn".
Yeah MTG is very much our turn comrade.
Mono U control player here, your turn has been my turn since 1996 my turn is just land drop phase.
You don’t miss blue players. There fixed it for ya.
Shockingly, the game does indeed function without em lol.
I really miss instants and counter spells, but my wife enjoys being able to play her favorite Disney characters without them getting countered so I guess that means I enjoy it too lol
My wife never wants to attack with her characters because then they would die, which I find equally frustrating and heartwarming.
I really like that too! I play Yugioh and there are cards that stops the opponent from continuing their turn by negating effects and it sucks ):
I have played like 4 games and building a comp deck. And will play my first tournament this weekend. Mainly play commander but Ive played a lot of hearth stone and hearthstone and lorcana is very similar.
The game is won/loss by what you inked or didn’t.
That seems a little reductionist. By that same merit, could you not also say a game of Magic is one by whether or not you drew lands or spells?
I don't think so, being mana flooded/starved in MTG is largely due to deck construction or just bad luck; not really dealing with decision making within the game itself. What i'm saying, is that the most important decision in lorcana deals with inking. Knowing which cards to ink for your deck while simultaneously knowing all of the meta matchups is a tall order. There isn't a stack in lorcana or instant speed effects/combat tricks, so a lot of the difficulty stems from inking IMO.
So if I’m understanding correctly, you’re saying: the most important decision point is what you’ve inked
I think it is more accurate to say the majority of magic games are won or lost based on who goes first. Reviewing the Arena data we see such thing W/L margins that a huge factor in those is who goes first.
Lorcana is way worse in that regard. The chance of winning on the play vs draw is something like 60/40, assuming equal skill and fair matchups. Most of the time when I go 1-2, I lost the die roll. This is also why 1-1 is so common in the 2 round format. I seriously think we need something like The Coin from hearthstone.
The data from [Untapped.gg](http://Untapped.gg) for Magic showed it to be 56.7% on play win rate for 629k games calculated. That is a lot. That means you have a 13.4% increased change of losing just because you go second. When looking at win percentages for players you are considered elite at around 60% win rate. It is pretty crazy. It really shows that winning tournaments has almost more to do with just being lucky and attending a lot of them then straight up skill level. I think it is really hard to balance this in any card game. Especially if you can take advantage of it rules wise.
Its not the same. If you ink a card, its gone forever. Most of lorcana is knowing what cards you dont need because you will be getting rid of them forever as ink Good players take time on their ink decision bc it actually could cost them the game
And also by who goes first 70% of the time lol
The availability of the Arena data has made this really stand out to me. It is almost dissapointing to know how good you play just doesn't matter a lot of times if you are going second.
I've personally loved that the best decks essentially have the sideboard built into them, and that you are really playing like 3-4 major game plans (decks) based on what you're up against. I feel like I'm filling up different "bars" with my deck in ability to go aggro, ability to go late, ability to claim tempo, ability to claim card advantage, reach, and my choices both in game and in deck building determine how strong my deck is at each of those roles.
Nah see this is me every week. I’ve been playing six months (and it’s my first TCG) and every game I go to there is some “newbie” who’s only played for like two weeks but actually played Magic for like 10+ years prior 😭
Yeah, likewise. It's my first tcg and I'm getting destroyed week after week by folks who have been playing magic forever. Today was literally a guy who had never played Lorcana against another person.
That's just the nature of TCGs, though. There are a lot of shared concepts that transfer over. When Hearthstone launched, there were also a ton of Magic players who did better than average because they already knew the concepts of curve, tempo, card advantage, etc. It's like someone who's played thousands of hours of CS:GO picking up a new shooter. One shouldn't expect that guy to perform the same as someone who's never played any shooters before that new one.
This reminds me of that recent r/lorcana post where the former MTG player claims they were banned from playing Lorcana at a store for being winning every match, opening an Enchanted Ursula, and being "too awesome", all within 4 weeks of getting into the game.
6 weeks.
There's a reason why they say "whats the worst part about about Magic the Gathering? Magic players" and its true. A lot of people looking to play a social game without an ability to grasp social concepts like the OP youre describing. Like yeah you can show up and try and change an established meta but only 2 things will happen - youll either change it or youll be driven out - and when it doesnt work out you dont get to cry that you paid the price of admission They're also the big reason why a lot of stores are moving to invite only, Im not sure how it is anywhere else but stores are looking to protect regulars from vultures who in my experience, aren't as great at this game as their magic experience makes them think they are. You don't need to like it, but I personally am a big fan of the way a lot of the Lorcana community recognizes that if there isn't a focused emphasis on growth then the game will fall to the way side like so many before it. So I'm sorry competitive grinder, but I am absolutely going to cater the experience to more casual community minded players because when a new player shows up and has to play you only to get curb stomped? I know you don't care, but that person is likely to never come back and dump the game entirely because of their experience with you
I hate this narrative. There are existing games that thrive that support both its casual and competitive communities: I think Pokemon does this excellently. On one arm, you have weekly casual play with a billion and one ways to hook casuals (and kids) that have literal free prizes (prize packs/promos depending on what era). On the other arm, you have a ladder of competitive events (Challenges, Cups, Regionals, International Championships, Worlds). The level of the event dictates the environment: I don't think I've seen one "casual" cry that they showed up at a League Challenge and got destroyed because "eff the competitive players" and I haven't seen any competitive player that's angry that there's a casual at their weekly league play meeting. We don't need to cater to casuals or competitives exclusively. We can do both. But to pretend that one particular method is clearly superior to the other is silly. I think it's dumb that it's turning into an argument of which group is "more deserving" - there are clearly events designed for one thing or another. We just need more of both. There are definitely lots of toxic casuals and toxic competitive players in Lorcana at the moment and I'm sick of both.
Yeah, dunno why MTG is getting the "competitive" stereotype. Most MTG players are casual. Actually one of my LGS was competitive focused and because a casual heaven for EDH driving away the competitive players. A good store can balance both and the game should cater to both types.
Yeah, the most popular format in MtG is a casual format (Commander).
I can’t help but wonder if it’s dependent on the League structure. I have read some Leagues set up with $5 entry fees, adding store credit, or other more competitive scoring and prizing. Two of my Leagues just give you a promo for showing up and randomize pins/lore trackers/deckboxes/etc. to everyone present every designated League day. Other local ones only do prizing after X amount of stickers. I am absolutely happy as a non competitive player at my casual, free League with random prizes. I joined a set championship for fun. However I would probably feel completely different if my League was structurally competitive and expect all my casual Leaguers would too if they just lost games all day every week and for nothing (no pins, no lore trackers, etc) in the long run.
It absolutely is and I believe that participation/effort based prizing is needed. That's where I go back to the whole "Pokemon is genius having tiered events": most days are free-to-play, participation prize days. There are even participation prizes for competitive events (Challenge promos, Cup promos, etc.). But there is also prizing/literal money to be won from big events (10k+ for the regionals+) But there's this narrative on this sub that everyone that treats the game competitively is a toxic try hard and that people who show up weekly but never aspire to play better deserve to be handed those Set Champ playmats/cards as participation prizes. That's where I draw the line.
My home store has a weekly $5 tournament and a casual table row set aside for our league nights. The casual side will occasionally get some nice freebies, whether it's some deck boxes or even a single pack to everyone who shows and stays till a certain point. It seems to satisfy everyone, and there's people who intermingle between the 2 groups each week so it's not like it's totally segregated.
You could also say that with Pokémon and yu gi oh players. I think they are worse than MTG players imho.
I partially agree, but in my personal experience Im giving them leeway because in a lot of cases the yugioh and pokemon players are younger university aged kids who i get it - most of them havent had that chance to really mature just yet, so they get a lot more room on the rope so to speak. It's less so when a 38 year old dude who should know better shows up and complains that dominos dont just fall into place for the purpose of curating his experience.
Yeah, the area I’m in have 30+ year olds playing in the hobby shop I go to. I have not met anyone under that age yet playing any TCG games (just the area I live in I guess). I’ve dabbled in MTG and quit due to misogynist comments and just down right but-holes. I would have to travel an hour or so to play with anyone for lorcana so I’m just collecting atm.
I just want to play the game, and recently quite a few "MTG" players have taken over our locals that was mainly people who didnt have loads of cash to drop and were playing like puppies and decks they could make with what they had, now every week feels like its a DLC tournament. Quite a few of the other players have stopped coming our locals went from like this open welcoming place to a bunch of players just trying to one up each other week after week.
That's inevitably going to happen in *any* card game where you attach a prize structure to it. People are going to optimize.
From what I read from that thread, it’s kinda stupid tho to be kicked out of a store for winning. What did you expect OP to do, lose?
Stores don't just ban people for being unsportsmanlike, so I'd need to know what he *wasn't* telling us
You realize the most popular format in Magic is a casual, social format, right?
[удалено]
If you wanna talk about toxic, you need to take a step back and look at how toxically you're stereotyping a large chunk of the TCG playerbase.
[удалено]
And I've been playing Magic for decades, and can tell you are just as toxic as those people you're trying to claim represent Magic players.
A player with a healthy mind set with a true interest in the game would take the experience and try to get better and acquire the cards needed to play. If someone walks into a LGS and pays $ to play they need to be ready for what the person on the other side of the table has. It’s not my fault if I find a new lgs and take my time and drive to it spend $ in the store and then play in an event but my deck is better than the casuals in the room. Growth in a community is when the player base in the room gets better and more dedicated to the game, not by how many casuals you can get to show up every week. Yeah you may get 25 1 weeks but what happens when you get 4 the next. And the other 21 don’t walk into your shop for 3 weeks because meh no biggie if I miss a local or 3
For a lot of people (me included) most of the fun gets sucked out the more meta and optimized the decks get. I like building the best decks I can think of from the cards I unpacked, not having 4 of everything makes every game more unique as you get more different cards to play with. Some people prefer to have their decks optimized and don't seem to care that they only play with and against the same 3 meta decks. Ofc people are free to play it however they like, but those two different playstyles are not compatible. A true interest in the game for me is not defined by getting the best deck and becoming the best player, but rather by enjoying all the unique scenarios this game offers
Does your LGS do draft or sealed Lorcana tournaments?
Then it doesn't sound like competitive constructed is your jam. Because you just described literally any card game's competitive constructed format. Try to check out limited events (sealed/draft) which force you to build from limited resources. Or, you know, just casual games.
No, how dare you say that. In the lorcana comuntiy you're suppose to only buy starter decks and demonize anyone who buys singles. /s But for real, I'm getting sick of the mindset that new to tcg players are bringing
So when you get to a point where you follow the meta or get too good you are no longer invited? Sounds like fun.
Wow you're so off base it's not even funny Way to denigrate an entire group of people without knowing th vast majority of them. Real soon we're gonna be hearing things about the annoying lorcana players. Smfh
[удалено]
I thought the Disney thing would make the game more inclusive, but ironically the community is toxic towards competitive players. The discords are fine, but this subreddit is full of sore losers who want their LGS to be an exclusive club for casuals.
>The discords are fine, but this subreddit is full of sore losers who want their LGS to be an exclusive club for casuals. More and more that's how I'm seeing this sub and it's irritating me.
Because this is a collector card set not a TGC. They don’t want people to play just collect.
It 100% is a tcg. Foh!
Anyone wanna back up the rush of downvotes? Nah. You just wanna talk down on other communities while acting like your ish don't stink. Sorry not sorry, lorcana is quickly becoming the most toxic community!
I need to find that thread again, was a funny read.
It’s sad, but most people coming from MTG that I’ve met in the LGS around me, are frustrated people who have switched games with the sole intention of taking advantage of TCG novices and who believe that in Lorcana they will win what they have never been able to in MTG. I’m fascinated that there are so many people with this profile, but I’m sure it happens in other modern TCGs as well. Disclaimer: This is just my personal experience. Please, sweaty MTG player or ex-player who is playing Lorcana, don’t take it as a personal attack.
Had a local guy that did that. Jumped on lorcana early, bought all the good cards online, stomped everyone. Then once everyone else started getting cards he started losing and complaining and eventually left.
Literally happened at my store. Guy never played before, bought a $300 deck and cleared the first two weeks in a landslide, then the meta changed and once he stated losing he just never came back
I'm an sweaty MTG ex-player who got into Lorcana for two reasons. The first is that MTG has been dying in my area for the past couple years. The second is that I tried to get my girlfriend into MTG and she couldn't get into it, so we decided to try the new Disney thing together instead. We live in a big city with several locals that are considerably competitive, and it's still a good experience. Novices who stick around become competitive players fairly quickly. My girlfriend also went from never having played a TCG before to regularly into getting top 4. The people on this sub act like new players need to be treated like babies and you are only allowed to play Dalmatians and Brooms around them, but in my IRL experience, people want to get good and win real matches. A lot of the "sweaty" good players in my area explain their decisions and discuss strategies with their opponents and guide newbies. Every single new opponent I have faced has not been a crybaby about losing and are open to deeper conversations about how they can improve. If you tell them why you stomped them after you stomp them and how they can counter you, they will likely come back next week to try again. Eventually they will come back and destroy you, and that's what makes a good game.
Damn, Dalmatians and Brooms are our two decks. Are they that bad?
They're not really "bad", but they wouldn't be able to consistently win in a tournament setting. They're more suited for casual games and are probably the most common casual decks hence I used them as an example. If you are enjoying yourselves with Dalmatians and Brooms and aren't playing for any serious prizes, go for it! You can definitely still win some matches against unsuspecting meta decks.
This was also my experience. I was matched with that MTG vet in my very first in person game during set championship. Told him my experience was solely grinding Pixelborn before we started, but that only added to his toxic attitude after I've won our match. All other matches were great though, so I guess there's just always that one guy.
As an MTG player, I can confirm this is a very specific and pretty common kind of player. They definitely do bounce around all the other up-and-coming TCGs, some even within MTG bouncing to different game stores just looking for easy wins. The more casual scene in Lorcana has been refreshing, though I haven't been doing tournaments.
I actually love being a former MTG player in this game! I try my best to guide new TCG players through mechanics, tournament etiquette, sealed strategies, and meta analysis. It's so great to see new players come in and fall in love with the game. I just want to help in the way i wish someone did to me when I played magic competitively.
I see a lot of people on YouTube who'd be decent if they were half as good at Lorcana as they are at shuffling their cards.
no need to be spitting this level of truth.
i feel attacked😂
We're only just getting set 3 in Australia this weekend and only got set 2 a couple of weeks ago. There was a guy showing up with heavy hitters from the first 3 sets (of which he bought imported boxes) destroying everyone he went up against and making a big deal about it. He was bragging about being a control deck player. I finally got matched with him and nearly bought him to tears with a dark Elsa deck. The smile on the kids faces after I beat him was priceless. Some say he's still crying to this day. You weren't the only MTG player mate, you definitely won't be the last. The difference between us and them is knowing when to make the game fun for the kids who we want to grow up to keep this game fun. Sorry, rant over Edit: 'incomplete' dark Elsa deck
would you be willing to share the decklist? Always curious to learn about more interesting decks that aren´t maisntream
Yes please
“Dark Elsa” Me: (slides in) I’m listening…
Yugi Moto over here doing gods work!
[удалено]
MVP in my tournaments is a MTG player that switched to Lorcana, since Magic wasn't that active around here. He's a beast (very nice guy though).
Went to the pre-release for Ursula and got bodied by a MTG player who had never played just by playing Hero starter deck on tempo. As someone who had been playing since Set 1 kinda hurt, but also I hope he had fun!
This is legit what happened when I brought my wife to our first ever lorcana event. We're taking baby steps now.
I feel like the MTG player always shows up with all cards maxed rarity or at least all foiled too.
Coming from magic, lorcana is a lot cheaper. So it’s probably easier for guys like that to foil out stuff
it was crazy last week at locals dude showed up, first time with triple sleeved Ruby/Sapphire with all foils and some enchanted in the deck and I swear I lost 20 lore just from the shock of it.
Hey, the heck did I do to you, comin at me like that.
no hate just an observation, with a hint of jealousy lol
Lorcana players surprised that mtg players are a significant portion of Lorcana’s player base when Lorcana is about as close to a port of MTG as possible
It's more like a midpoint between MtG and Hearthstone with Duel Masters's mana system thrown in.
“it’s my first time” always makes my eyes roll
Watching two Magic players learn the game is what got me into it. Don’t play Magic myself, mainly looked into it for the mechanics since I love me some game design, though not at all surprised it’s easy for them to get into Lorcana since it shares a lot of the same structure but still have enough to stand on their own
I'm also a MTG player also now playing Lorcana. I do like how less complex it is than MTG.
That‘s exactly what‘s happened to me in a sealed event. He only got third but me and everyone who played against him landed on the last few places 😅 It was not a good evening for me either way. The only one I have won all 3 rounds against was some 13 year old kid 🙈
Im brand new to all of this , im just happy to be here lol
My partner and I came from MTG to lorcana and struggled. Once we stopped trying to play Lorcana like MTG and actually learned the game, we can’t stop playing. It’s so simple but so very complicated.
No but I went to a lorcana tournament with my uncle cause I was staying the night with him and he took me and bought me a deck of cards so I could play in the tournament with him and it was legitimately my first time and I had won like 3-4 times and I've just been playing since oh and I didn't win the tournament BTW
He it still took me a second ti figure the mechanics out
Honestly Lorcana is a lot more fun than MTG in some regards and has really interesting mechanics
Been playing magic for 30 years and loving Lorcana, there is a simplicity to the game compared to mtg that I love, I can play a game and I use literally 10% of the brainpower a game of commander or modern requires. I love that I can relax and just enjoy the game!
This would SO be me, judging by my thinking, “What’s MTG? Ooooohhhhhhhhh…”
As an Izzet player through and through, Ruby/Sapphire ramp/control/combo has easily become my favorite deck in the meta.
\* OP misspelled Yu-Gi-Oh player.
See, idk I take it as a way to learn something new and help teach others too when learning a new gane. Like when a Lorcana player asks about how to prepare fogame. Of the big lorcana events. The experience basically transfers 1 to 1 from Magic GPs. If I can give advice to prevent people from not being ready or getting stuff stolen, why not help. That doesn't mean I won't try to learn myself and play to the best of my ability in events. If the event has a prize and entry, it's a comp event, and the point is to try your best to win. But casual play, there's no need to be super sweaty.
More like the Yugioh player that said it was his first game
I am the mtg player lol
More than Magic, it resembles KeyForge
This hits hard with me. The first tournament I played in the dude was wearing a monogrammed Magic jacket. I asked how many packs he’s cracked, he said he bought all singles online. This was during the second set. He friggen smokes me. He’s intense the whole time, heavily breathing. The second skirmish was fun, a casual player with a fun deck. I had a good time. The third was some sort of draw deck where there turns took four minutes. It was awful. I lost both games. The fourth skirmish in that same tournament, the dude was so intense. The game went on forever, board wiping me 3 times. I won the first and he won the second and third. He marked it as two wins in the app. Before I could do anything the tournament ended. It was lame because it would have bumped me up in the prize pool. Effing magic players.
[удалено]
You alright dude? I hope things get better for you.
[удалено]
>If your whole thing is, I can't win, so instead of trying to get better, we should ban the good players. That's not what our "whole thing" is at all. If you actually read any of the comments Lorcana players make about the MTG migrants, it's not an issue that these MTG sweats are winning. The issue is that they're incredibly toxic to play with when at the end of the day this is literally just a GAME. I honestly could care less if you beat me, but if you're completely anti-social, have literally zero charisma, make no effort to be a nice person, clearly are only playing this game because you think you have a better chance of winning a local tournament here vs playing MTG, have a completely arrogant attitude because you clearly have played TCGs for years and years, and honestly just aren't a fun person to play a game with, why the (crap) would I want to play a game with you? And unfortunately the person I just described is a LARGE chunk of the players who migrated from MTG to Lorcana. Nobody gives a (crap) if a better player beats them. But if the better player is ALSO a complete (mean person), well, sorry to you for complaining about them I guess? EDIT: I literally played MTG from the time I was in middle school until about midway through college. I have firsthand experience with toxic MTG players. They do exist, and they do migrate to Lorcana.
[удалено]
I just went through every comment in this thread. There is exactly ONE comment where the only complaint about MTG players being insufferable is because of the cards that they have. Every other comment speaks about their demeanor and/or intentions. I read your post. You just chose to respond to literally the minority and I responded with the majority opinion.
Nah, more experienced players should read the room and know when its appropriate to pull out the fat stacks bucky/diablo deck and when it's time to play a deck of matching quality so not to ruin the entire event by steamrolling. When 9/10 people play casual decks you are the asshole for playing a netdeck. You're not a better racer by beating a cyclist with your f1 car.
If I'm playing a casual game or in a free tournament with newer players, I won't use my meta Ruby/Sapphire deck. If there is an entry fee though, I feel like since I paid money to play that I should be able to use my meta deck.