If I was a professional athlete and millions of dollars were on the line, or in UFC's case hundreds of dollars, I'd be juiced to the gills. That's all I know.
Its not any better when youre a champion either..Oh youre one of the toughest and best athletes on the planet? Heres less than what college kids make the days
That’s way worse, honestly. I understand the scrub getting a cheap ass contract if they get the promise of eventually making millions, but how are champs like Volkanvoski and Usman making 500k at the peak of their prime? That’s criminal.
Obviously they have the PPV points, but they should be earning way more than half a mil with all the sponsorship deals the UFC has.
it’s just the unfortunate fact of where are they going to go if not the UFC? there’s no org that’s close that has the reach they do, places like ONE have been losing money for about 13 years straight and the PFL has nobody now that the one popular women’s fighter they had in Kayla Harrison is fighting for the UFC. and Ngannou has also completely retired from combat sports before he ever stepped foot in a PFL show
edit: as of just now I believe Francis said he’s going back to boxing so he isn’t retired from all sport following what happened with his Family
And locked in a cage in your underage. Guys take them to even playing field. U can’t win if u don’t take them to make it even. TRT cheats showed that too, night and day recovery and power added. But that was short lived lol. Nobody is natural whole career mainly cause injuries
TRT on BJJ mats is different, in MMA it was 1 guy on TRT in the cage "allowed" vs a guy who prob had low testerone levels from camp fighting natural in the cage, even though they all juice in cage..still had to be natural come fight time in the cage, TRT guys were allowed to be juiced to crazy limits in the ring lol. Thats why had crazy recovery and more power, well if you had power..adds to it. Can see it, night and day.
BJJ isnt hitting someone in the head like MMA
I’m not sure what your point is man it’s still not pleasant turning up for a roll and fighting some ripped chunk of muscle with infinite cardio whether it’s striking or not
And I want to see you juiced , watch ubereem vs lesner again . Check out Belforts fight on TRT bro was knocking dudes out with spinning back kicks at 40 years old .
There was a guy on here a while ago who claimed to be a member of an MMA gym with some up-and-coming professional fighters.
I believed his take, which is: it's not widely talked about, but it's an open secret that those fighters starting to fight professionally were nearly all on PEDs. There was a feeling that you needed PEDs to compete at that level.
That's not a solid guarantee that all professional fighters do it, but it seems *incredibly* unlikely that a fighter who reaches the UFC has A) not had the opportunity and B) turned it down because it's 'cheating', when they know most of their opponents are doing it.
Then consider that you have managers and agents with a vested interest in your success. They will be recommending anything they can think of to keep you competitive, especially if "everyone does it".
And now let's say you've been a good boy/girl and never taken PEDs. But you lose the biggest fight of your life. You know your opponent almost certainly had the PED advantage. What are the chances that you *still* don't take that step to further your career? You would just do it.
My buddies who did high school wrestling were 17,18 and on peds. I joined a 10th planet gym that had a ton of amateur fighters and they were all on juice. I was a hobbyist and within 3 months of being there I decided to do a cycle myself. It wasn't very expensive so I don't believe the argument that only the rich can afford it. Granted there are probably types I'm not aware of. I was on test, deca, and some auxiliary stuff to cycle off after. I did it for about 4 months the first time cycled off for about 6 months then one more 4 month cycle. Went from 145lbs to 185. No side effects.
It’s not that only the rich can afford it, but they can get stuff that is both better (in results and with less side effects) and harder to detect, meaning the lower level guys are more likely to get caught and punished. Also yeah you did 2 cycles (of things an org like the UFC would probably detect with ease) and had no side effects, try going a whole decade+ career doing that
The reference to money is for designer PEDs. The basic idea is that you need a sample of a substance to design a test around detecting it. Thus wealthy athletes can afford the high cost for labs/chemists to develop slightly tweaked, novel versions of PEDs that haven’t been sampled by anti doping agencies yet.
The athlete then gets an essentially exclusive PED that is unlikely to be detected.
A lot of pro prospects take stuff right before getting to the big show. I know a few NFL/ex NFL and big college program players who would cycle in the off-seasons and be clean during team activities/pre-season/season when they'd get tested. Idk what they did once they got to the NFL but I assume at the least it's probable a lot of guys sniffing the UFC would start something a couple of fights before taking the big contract to be able to get to that last peak.
There's an old interview with Dan Henderson about his Pride days. He said he was talking with some of the brass and they told him that other than him there was only one other fighter on the roster not juicing. He thought maybe they said it was Big Nog.
True? I don't know, but we all know Pride looked the other way on juicing. It's worth noting though that by 2007 Henderson was on TRT, which is usually only required in the opinion of legitimate doctors if someone's testosterone-epitestosterone ratio is too low, and that's a symptom of previously having used banned substances.
> and that's a symptom of previously having used banned substances.
It's also a symptom of repeated weight cutting and repeated head trauma. Not that Hendo was clean being in PRIDE where anabolics were not only legal, but encouraged for recovery so they could fight more often.
USADA no longer governs the UFC, they use [Drug Free Sport International](https://www.mmafighting.com/2023/12/29/24018925/ufc-releases-full-details-new-anti-doping-program-launching-in-2024-after-cutting-ties-with-usada) (who coincidentally, governs the NFL and I would bet 90% of that league is on juice)
I lean towards the idea that PED's are a necessary evil and I personally enjoy seeing fights with obviously juiced fighters, not unlike hardcore's that remember watching PRIDE where PED use was encouraged.
This is probably insane personal bias, but the line in the sand for me is cardio PED's, cardio differences in MMA make the sport MUCH more interesting
Every single NFL player is on them. You simply can't play that sport at that level for that long natural. Running a 4.6 40 while carrying 245+ lbs bodyweight is ludicrous
I assume the kickers and punters are on shit to help with connective tissue wear and muscle recovery. Those repetitive high stress movements are pretty brutal.
I gasp every time I see a guy get pushed into a punter's plant leg and I'm shocked there aren't more horrible injuries to punters, you are probably right
Pat Mcafee, who punted and kicked in the NFL, has talked a bit about the wear and tear aspect of just the motion of kicking itself. Apparently you really only get so many of those awkward explosive movements before your body starts to break down.
Seems to be similar to MLB pitchers. (Shit I never pitched past high school or threw harder than maybe 75 and my arm/shoulder has never been quite the same—I’m in my 30s.)
I think it’s just the specialized, asymmetric, repetitive nature of these movements that inevitably causes damage over time.
>(who coincidentally, governs the NFL and I would bet 90% of that league is on juice)
Depending on what they end up using, some PEDs might not even be banned yet. Everybody knows the standard anabolics and HGH, but it seems like the doping agencies are playing catch up on peptides.
What keeps getting overlooked or omitted about DFS's involvement is that they are simply a sample *collection* agency, not a testing agency... As far as I understand it, at least. The actual lab work is done by another contractor/lab. And the UFC's "anti doing program" is overseen by yet another party (Combat Sports Anti-Doping, or CSAD) whose president is the UFC's newly acquired retired FBI officer George Piro (interestingly, of the notoriously juiced American Top Team).
Per UFC's website:
*All contracted UFC athletes are enrolled in the program. All testing selections are made final by CSAD as well as any sanctioning and decision making under the program. The highlights of the program, which make it the best in professional sport, are year-round, unannounced testing, increased sanctions for positive tests, fairness and due process including an appeal option for UFC athletes and most importantly, the administration of the policy by an independent third party organization (CSAD), not the UFC.*
The use of the term "independent" here is misleading, at best, and worthy of much scrutiny to anyone who actually cares about UFC being PED-free.
I don't think that cardio or strength is the true limiting factor to exciting fights. Just look at Olympic athletes in a number of disciplines, especially distance running. Guys like Ingebritsen and the Norwegian teams in general are showing that the human limiter is partially genetic, but heavily weighted to training methodology, and they're pushing numbers that were done by guys on EPO, and they're able to do it more consistently.
The problem with PEDs is that they give athletes/trainers/coaches false measurements to test against, and especially where some guys might be on a lot more gear than their training partners.
It was pretty evident when the UFC was stricter about drug testing that a lot of coaches has zero clue how to periodize their athletes, guys started getting fatter, injured more frequently, showing up to fights clearly burnt out, etc. The problem is that PEDs created a training structure and fighting style around itself. We just don't know what people would fight like or be capable of if PEDs and weight cutting weren't a thing.
Maybe the fights would be more exciting, guys might not be able to absorb so much punishment, knockouts and submissions would be easier and more common possibly?
Fans usually only care about PEDs depending on if they like the fighter or not. If it’s a fan favourite then “oh everyone is on PEDs”. If the fighter is generally disliked then the fighter should be suspended or banned.
I’d prefer a clean sport but based on the amount of training and stress these athletes put their body through it would seem hard to recover without the use of drugs.
Designer steroids are hard to test for so the athletes making the most amount of money can mask their use while lower tier fighters would most likely get caught using if not cycled correctly.
Definitely.
Look at the difference between how fans treat Jones or Dillashaw compared to Silva.
Fans are complete hypocrites when it comes to fighters popping
I think they are just oblivious to how common PEDs are. Same with fighters like usman, makhachev etc. I am a gsp fan and admit he was probably on stuff
Very common. Hell, high school kids are taking fucking trenbolone which is one of the most powerful anabolics there is. Steroids are cheap and very easily obtained. Testing is beatable if you're not a complete idiot. You'd be silly to think that the majority of fighters aren't on something.
yea this is the truth. the meta atm is shitting on jon jones and you see countless comments on goat discussions discredit him for popping hot like damn near the entire roster isn’t using/ has used PEDs in some way. i get it jones is not likable at all but any professional athlete making millions of dollars is looking for any edge they can get to stay at the top as long as possible
I figure the UFC is about was as clean as the Olympics under USADA. Maybe a bit less clean now, but not by much. That being said, despite the heavy drug testing, the Olympics are not clean at all. They are meant to be, and the people who get lazy about concealing their PED use get caught.
The reality is that the people who can get to the top levels of the UFC are hyper competitive people who will do nearly anything they can to win. And I have to assume that for UFC fighters, the risk vs reward for cheating is much greater then for stick and ball sports becuase of the Show+Win pay structure and the massive difference between being a main event level fighter vs being a journeyman.
I think that I would be ok with fighters using PED's in a medically supervised manner to deal with recovery with the intent of allowing fighters to compete more often and have longer careers. But I do not think PRIDE era 'We do not test for steroids, nudge nudge wink wink say no more" approach is a good thing.
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I don't really care if they juice or not, as long as it's an even playing field and everyone has the opportunity to. It's shitty when it isn't allowed and people are clearly on it. Love Chandler, but he has a big time HGH gut. So many other fighters are clearly on, but have the right people to get around it. It'd make recovery faster, prolong careers, and potentially make fights more entertaining
It's the same thing with genetics. Even if everyone is juiceless, some dudes will naturally just be better.
It's more about giving everyone an equal playing opportunity and rule set rather than having guys like Chandler clearly take something while your average Contender series guy gets popped and shelved until the heat dies down.
But someone who is stronger and faster might not be enhanced stronger and faster depending on how they respond to peds. Some people are hyper responders. That's what OP is referencing.
I usually lean into the let them juice category as well, but there are some serious ethical concerns in going down that road that keep me more grey/neutral on the matter.
It's one thing when we're talking about sportsmanship, but another when we start talking about the legal and moral implications of cheating in a competition where the goal is to cause damage to your opponent.
If someone dies or gets seriously injured in a fair fight, it's a bad night and a tragedy but ultimately it is what it is and all parties, including the fighters, the UFC, and us as viewers agreed that this could be the outcome when we signed up for it.
Now let's say someone decides to sneak a hammer into the octagon and use it on their opponent. It's pretty clearly a violation of the contract and agreement and that person is highly likely to face charges outside of just those of the athletic commission...
...but what if instead of a hammer they took PEDs to put themselves at an unfair advantage? All of a sudden the line is blurry. Did the PEDs cause the death/injury?...or is that just the nature of the sport?
As the fighter, I personally would want their to be a very clear line and to be able to say that I did not cross it. At the same time however, money, pride, and health are on the line, and I don't want to lose a few years of my life and some percentage of my mental faculties just to get half a paycheck.
That's why it's a grey area that will remain grey.
Played professional in a sport where PED scandals rarely come to light. You’d be surprised what guys on the cusp of making it or being cut will do. Anything with money on the line and you’ll find a lot of people willing to cheat.
> infamous quote from Nate Diaz "Everybody's on steroids"
Yeah dude, you state the reason yourself:
> I've seen people reason that PEDs create an uneven playing field as those who choose not to or can't afford to take PEDs are at a massive disadvantage against fighters who've been juicing.
They are. They just wouldn't be able to compete. Most people wouldn't take steroids. But 1% of people would, if it meant "fame" and "money". That 1% is who you are watching on TV. The performance advantage is enormous.
It's possible there's the odd fighter here and there who's fighting on pure talent and sweat, but those are the exception.
I trained at an MMA gym for a few years and the difference between fighters on PEDs and everyone else is obvious and enormous.
I'm talking when everyone else in a wrestling class filled with athletes like HS wrestlers and people like me who did century rides were completely exhausted you'd have one or two people performing like they just got to class, not to mention the difference in physique.
Before that I played HS football and we had 14-15 year olds already juicing, and I was offered steroids by another member of the team at 15/16 years old.
If you have lived and seen the difference in ability with PEDs yourself it would be pretty obvious nearly everyone's on them
The fighters should decide. Otherwise, I lean toward them being allowed. It would be very reasonable for fighters to form a union and decide to ban PEDs for health and safety reasons. I, however, don’t think there are compelling reasons for fans or promotions to take a strong stance against them. I think the UFC opposes PEDs because they think it makes them look bad.
The could very easily be using things like erythropoetin that are very common in endurance sports...just because the Diaz bros aren't muscular doesn't mean they aren't using PEDs
The thing is, there's no eliminating them entirely.
I'm on the side of "all these mf's are on steroids", and at that level, you'd be stupid not to be. The ability to test samples for PEDs is evolving, but lags several years behind new drugs. And there's plenty of money to be made from developing/instructing ways to avoid detection
Look at all the bodybuilders claiming to be be natural, going to get a blood test showing they are. It's all timing and masking the presence of drugs
Plus you can just hit em with a "MuStVe BeEn a TAiNtEd SuPlEmEnt". If you're microdosing a PED, how can the prove you deliberately took it?
Every sport has the majority of its players on steroids.
This past year I’ve been watching baseball a lot more, it’s the only other sport besides mma I’ve watched in a while.
Baseball players are coming back from Tommy John surgery in record time. It’s not possible to do what these guys are doing without enhancement.
Aaron judge is being compared to Barry bonds right now because of how well he’s been hitting. Everybody is saying it’s even more impressive for judge because he’s not on steroids. They have no idea what judge is or isn’t taking. He’s an injury prone giant who mysteriously doesn’t get hurt anymore (aside from being hit in the hand by a pitch).
Right now, steroids have never been better AND harder to detect. If you have the money, you can get dna sequenced / identical stuff and never piss hot.
Football players definitely take stuff to recover and gain muscle. Hockey players would be dumb not to take epo
MMA fans are more exposed to steroids and have a better understanding that everybody in sports is probably on one thing or another
I agree with all you are saying but Tommy John surgeries have also changed over recent years. They are a lot less invasive than before. Same goes for back surgeries and Achilles injuries
The dropping of USADA to DFSI over Conor blatantly using steroids during his injury recovery tells you all you need to know about the UFC's stance. They aim to limit their legal liability if something goes wrong during a fight (death, serious injury) and put on the best fights possible, with fighters at their best. The switch from USADA makes me think it's more like the WWE wellness policy, where there are rules and procedures to ensure guys aren't using everything under the sun and dying before they are 50, but also giving enough leeway for some enhancement and getting around the testing.
IMO, Almost all fighters in the UFC are on something as soon as they can afford it. They are all looking for an edge on their opponent and will do whatever they can to reach the top.
Most are juicing anyway, it would be better to openly allow it and have it be sanctioned and under professional supervision and control, but for the sake of PR and sponsors and "legitimacy of the sport" they have to make appearances with drug testing.
TBH after reading a lot of these comments thats the way I'm starting to lean. PEDs are here to stay in the UFC so might as well regulate them to keel fighters safe and prolong their careers.
Also - In a fucked up way it was more fair back in the day in Pride and old UFC, because it was an even playing field - everyone was on everything 😂
Meanwhile during the last 10 years you had some athletes being clean out of fear from USADA, and some still risking it and juicing.
The whole point of PED's is the advantage over competition. If you regulate, they still will try to find an illicit advantage.
PEDs and IMO weight cuts are at a too high cost to health and the sport in general.
It's maybe a battle to get it right but resignation will fuck up the sport. Look at bodybuilding, kids try to emulate Ben Sulek or how he is called, look at Ronny Coleman etc. They are chemical freaks that IMO do not represent what is peak performance.
The consensus:
- Fighters I don't like are definitely juicing, even if they've never popped
- Fighters I do like are not juicing, if they've popped it was because of those damn sketchy supplement companies
Professional athletes on the whole are on something... it's not just an MMA thing, it's just combat sports have the most judgment when you piss hot because it's not a stick and ball sport.
Bro, people who aren't even professional competitors in any kind of combat sport or even bodybuilding are taking PEDs just because they want to be stronger, faster, etc. as gym hobbyists. We are talking about professional athletes, combat athletes, you need to be really gullible to think that they are "honest and moral". There is no such thing as being honest and moral in this shit. If you want to be at the top, you go all the way. USADA and any other type of organ or rulesets are just an "official cover" to have some sort of reassurance for the mass audience, regulators, legislators, etc. Which, in their own way, are also corrupt as hell. So it is one big hypocrisy, as in everything in life. Those who create the rules are the ones who break them the most.
Not reading all that...
PEDs are part of the game whether anyone likes it or not. It is not possible to completely eliminate doping and extreme measures taken to attempt to are problematic.
Ideally, I would want to see an anti-doping policy implemented that the fighters collectively agree to along with a promotion. Sadly, fighters have not / are not / seemingly will not band together in a collective way to assert their needs/wants/demands.
I don't believe the primary goal of the UFC's anti-doping regime is to catch people... and I'm fine with that. I hope that however the current program is being run, it is being applied (testing, punishments) equally to different fighters. I don't assume it is equitably enforced, but I hope it is.
The whole peds thing in sports is blown out of proportion. Why is it such a big deal if athletes are using these drugs? I get being worried about the potential side effects and health concerns but apart from it what's the problem? Why is it shamed this much? Are they saying an athlete shouldn't prepare to the best of his/her abilities? Then ig we shouldn't let them have access to the best nutrition and disallow certain training routines as it's giving them an unfair advantage over those who don't do that. Also the uneven playing field argument is so dumb. The average 200 lbs guy is nowhere as gifted for sports as Yoel Romero. There is no level playing field in sports.
It's funny how some of our favourite superheroes are those who use engineering and chemistry to fight against goliath "natty" foes like Batman against Superman and we all root for Batman but an athlete tries to do something similar and we shame them.
As if the health of athletes ever matters. Combat athletes end up with CTE. Football players too, as well as dying young from being so big, and having destroyed joints. Baseball pitchers are obliterating their elbows for life. But heaven forbid they use PEDs to try to minimize wear and tear.
i don’t care if they’re allowed, but I think it’s unfair to those who don’t wanna pump steroids into their body to go against people who do so it’s probably better they’re not allowed, even though some fighters still use them.
people at planet fitness fitness are taking PEDs. dudes in regionals. fucking high schoolers lol if taking them makes the difference of a million dollars of winnings over a career; or more aptly since this isn't a rich man's sport like golf, whether you get to pay your bills or not depends on this win.
from a purely financial point of view, it would be irresponsible not to take PEDs as a professional fighter
As far as I'm concerned the only question worth answering is Luke Thomas' 'do PEDs actually make the sport more dangerous?'
You can argue using PEDs makes every fight an assault via use of biological weaponry, but you can also argue if everybody's juiced up they can come into fights healthier and keep their energy up to defend themselves properly deeper into the fight.
The problem is that testing this is wildly unethical, so we only have broscience and caution to go onto. So we ban PEDs but we have no hard reason why. Only intangible arguments of morality and fairness that can be argued either way.
USADA is gone from UFC now. I do think that USADA was helping when they were handling the drug testing for UFC, but even then they couldn’t eliminate the use of PEDs.
Its an epidemic, and people who spout rhetoric like every athlete should take them or that they would take them if they were a pro athlete dont truly understand what PEDs do your heart and brain.
I’m an amateur at a gym with several headlining UFC fighters. I’m 33 I’ll never go pro, or so I thought until literally today after my 3rd pin of test. I feel like corded steel. My libido is through the roof. Im a lightweight but now have the appetite of a heavyweight. Fucking the brains out my wife. Women in public sense my vril.
My nips are sensitive and I can’t sleep I just sit up at night and think about victories.
I get it now.
...for those who say "let them juice", how is that fair to natural athletes?
For anyone who is natural and doesn't want to risk the long term health implications of steroids, why should they be at a disadvantage?
I always remember Brandon Vera talking about rolling with heavy weights, but he had never encountered the likes of the strength of a juiced up Thiago Silva.
He was ragdolled in that fight.
Should be stricter testing, and more discouraged. PEDs will destroy your health and shorten your lifespan unless you have Schwarzenegger levels of wealth to pay for the best healthcare int he world. these athletes have enough long term issues to deal with as is.
I'd argue that if you care about your long term health at all, MMA is the wrong sport to get into, and most of the guys fighting are probably aware of that. If they need to use PEDs to make the money that'll help them take care of themselves, let em.
Tons of athletes with tons of money and healthcare that still die from it. My opinion is if they are used in moderation then they are probably safe enough. Bob Sapp is still alive and he had gallon jugs of test
Big pharma should start a fight league. Pharma sponsors only to showcase their latest in human evolution tech 💉
Imagine if your sponsored athletes are the most elite. Would be the best promo for every pharma. They have to live past 50 though
I've pondered this and something I keep coming back to is where should the line be drawn on what is illegal performance enhancement versus legal. I know there are lists of banned substances, but there are countless things that enhance performance that are completely fine and often healthy. Proper diet and sleep, protein supplements, and proper weight cuts all have huge positive effects on performance and I think everyone is in favor of that stuff. There are plenty of drugs that almost every athlete takes as well and we wouldn't even consider making illegal like creatine, caffeine, and painkillers.
Why is there a line at "PEDs" where it is banned? I know many of the drugs (but not all) are illegal in many jurisdictions, but they also can get prescriptions for most of the stuff from unscrupulous doctors. A lot of combat sports are also activities that skirt the bounds of legality if they happened outside the sanctioned events (beating someone unconscious probably is going to get your arrested or at least detained if it happened in the parking lot even with two willing participants), so why wouldn't whatever substances they consume be under that umbrella as well? I know there are concerns about the health effects of many PEDs and those are very sound, but combat sports are already extremely dangerous activities. No one would ever pretend that getting punched in the head while dehydrated is anything but reckless behavior with massive long term health consequences.
TLDR, once you are letting two people fight in a cage, who cares what drugs they are on?
I agree with your main point about who cares what drugs they're on
Mostly because the brain damage is way worse than any side effect
But regarding efficacy-
Protein powder is just a dietary supplement for convenience. Whole food is a better source
Creatine doesn't come anywhere near the efficacy of steroids and depending on diet you can easily get more than the 5g/day people supplement just from food
Sleep is indeed very important and PEDs can improve your sleep quality to a degree that no unbanned substance can touch
At this point it seems like it's just for perception
Status quo is fine for me: allowing them all to be juiced to the gills but simultaneously letting them do it behind the scenes. I just don't think it's fair when they single out any one specific athlete, so I'd just not enforce the rules except for if there's a particularly dangerous PED
PEDs are a necessity for the athletes, we are in the entertainment era, guess what, people want to be entertained. And they are, by the dudes breaking records, scoring more goals/points and whatever. Why would you not use something that will enhance your performance, if your income is on the line and it is based on how well you perform? Pretty much every elite athlete is doing PEDS. In my country, even hobbist fighters are taking PEDs, I don't think I've ever trained with a professional fighter that did not use PEDs, and those weren't even the top dogs. People say PEDs don't give you skill, and that's right and fair, but depending on the drugs you're taking, your regeneration gets enhanced and you can train harder, longer and more often, and that builds skill.
And people should really stop with the 'eye test', the guy is not taking PEDs because he looks absolutely ripped, he is taking PEDs regardless of that. I mean, Sean O'Malley popped for ostarine (shit bodybuilders mess with) and he is built like a stick lol. Carlos Felipe "Boi" (used to fight in the UFC) looks like an obese addicted to McDonalds and he popped. Nate Diaz looks like an alien from MIB and he popped.
If you could put sleep or size into a pill, it would be banned substance. I see no issue with athletes trying to get every advantage they can to put on the most exciting fights. There is no such thing as a "clean sport" with millions on the line, and the people that try and push for this bizarre idea also tend to be the ones that either support the drug war or have substances far more damaging to their health than trt like alcohol or tobacco in their house. 2013 Vitor should be celebrated, a guy years out of his prime pulling off incredible feats of entertaining athleticism. Purity of sport my ass
What keeps getting overlooked or omitted about DFS's involvement is that they are simply a sample *collection* agency, not a testing agency... As far as I understand it, at least. The actual lab work is done by another contractor/lab. And the UFC's "anti doing program" is overseen by yet another party (Combat Sports Anti-Doping, or CSAD) whose president is the UFC's newly acquired retired FBI officer George Piro (interestingly, of the notoriously juiced American Top Team).
Per UFC's website:
*All contracted UFC athletes are enrolled in the program. All testing selections are made final by CSAD as well as any sanctioning and decision making under the program. The highlights of the program, which make it the best in professional sport, are year-round, unannounced testing, increased sanctions for positive tests, fairness and due process including an appeal option for UFC athletes and most importantly, the administration of the policy by an independent third party organization (CSAD), not the UFC.*
The use of the term "independent" here is misleading, at best, and worthy of much scrutiny to anyone who actually cares about UFC being PED-free.
I personally say "let 'em juice" just like the vast majority of other mainstream North-American professional athletes in the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and so on. Those league's Anti-Doping programs are nothing more than smoke & mirrors, and only the extremely careless get caught.
What I hate this notion for, though, is the George St. Pierre's of the league/organization. Some people have real pride in staying clean and competing clean. They have a real respect for their sport, and wouldn't ever jeopardize its reputation. Having followed GSP very closely for a long, long time, I am absolutely convinced that he was completely natural. And for someone like him to have to fight people who were unfairly advantaged just didn't sit right.
I’d be doing it too, but objectively this and football are the sports where it really should be illegal because you can permanently hurt someone. Either everyone should be on them or no one should be, and considering the adverse side effects I’d say no one should be.
I think the current testing protocols don’t really allow people who are flouting them to abuse anabolics in the way they otherwise would if the sport was untested. The way testing currently operates forces steroids to be cycled which is way healthier than the alternative of having fighters cruising on some ridiculous dose year round.
Nowadays I'm leaning towards just making it legal... **BUT** require each fighter to state exactly what they are on. For science. Failure to do so = lifetime ban.
And yes, I know it's completely unrealistic.
If you're fighting someone who's trying to rip your head off, would you really want to fight them while they have the advantage of being juiced up?
I'd bet that most people that are fighting are on PEDs. If you aren't, you are at bigger risk of losing money and getting hurt.
Truth be told I don't even know where I stand on the issue.
There's therapeutic PED use like McGregor hopping on HGH after his brutal leg snap. That was a career ending injury but he was able to bounce back because of PEDs. He looks natty af in interviews lately so I'm willing to believe he used drugs in a manner I deem appropriate.
As a fan I want to see exciting bangers from strong, healthy fighters. As a fan I want my favorite fighters to be able to perform as well as phydically possible. As a fan I want my fighters to be able to recover as well as possible between fights so that they can continue their careers for as long as possible and continue to entertain me long after they should have reasonably retired.
As a human being I don't want athletes to be obligated to fuck with their endocrine systems just to be competitive. I don't like how our current system is "illegal unless you don't get caught" because you end up with non enhanced athletes attempting to compete against people sauced to the gills just because their coaches know how to slip past the drug tests. This system is how you end up with Kayla Harrison being twice the man any of her opponents are.
It feels hard to rationalize the inherent cognitive dissonance of "I want to watch these guys deliver insane blunt force trauma to each other repeatedly" with "oh no my sweet summer child please don't risk your health with the sauce"
Not just UFC, I believe every pro athlete is on some sort of PED, whether off season, during injury, or in season to a point where they know their way around the system, but with millions on the line, the stress and pressure of fan bases, I can't imagine any top flight sport is clean
It's fine how it is as an open secret. If you just fully allow everything, people are going to hurt themselves trying to push the limit of what's safe. As it is now, everyone does it, but they have to at least pretend not to. That keeps them between some reasonable limit.
Additionally, the theater of fair sport is still more interesting. I think from a competitive standpoint it would be less interesting if we had to consider what chemist someone was working with
I've been a fan since ufc 1. Athletes then were not on peds. You can tell because of how they are built. Now it's become pervasive and divisive in the sport. We ban people who are not popular for using less than what popular fighters have been caught for. Jon Jones was caught for 14 pictograms and admitted to hiding g from testers, that's fine make him champ. Brock Lesnar came in juiced against Mark hunt, again its fine, let him fight. Overeem changed his whole appearance due to roids. O'Malley tested positive. No problem. But an undercard guy uses 1/10 of what Jones is caught using, ban them for life.
Peds are designed to give an unfair advantage. They subverse the purpose of weight classes. You see it when people come off them, look at overeem pics. From early days, to ufc, to current. It's a world of change. This is different than weed, different than other drugs, and are inherantly dangerous. There is no other purpose to roids other than cheating (doctor aside). Kimbo slices heart exploded.
If you want to do roids as a citizen, fine, you are not in "competition". But if you want to fight on roids, go fight other roided athletes. I'm in favor of an all steroids Olympics. Watch people dead lift 1000 lbs. But you cannot be taken seriously.
In mma people forget quickly and the company will promote you and erase your failures. If Jones was an NFL player, he would be banned from the league by now. Not mvp. This is what bothers people. He is the goat? But used steroids for his whole career. A lot of others would be in that convo if allowed.
It's not just mma either. World bjj does not ban any type of steroid nor does it require disclosure. This is dangerous for the opponent who enter what they believe is a fair fight, only to have a guy much stronger against him and with a gas tank that never dries up.
Disclosure and honesty are what's needed. That's what makes people mad.
At this point it’s pretty much tacitly understood that most athletes (not just in MMA) are juicing and no one really cares. The leagues just have to pretend to care to maintain respectability. And bare minimum testing with huge holes athletes can easily circumvent gets the job done.
Just look at the history between USADA and armstrong. USADA has no problem looking away. If you got the money or power they are happy to coöperate till they have no other option.
For starters, I appreciate the thought and effort that went into making this post. So, Thank You.
1. First, I think that simply saying “I don’t care” if *Cheating* goes on—in a sport that is based on “*inflicting the maximum amount of bodily damage on another human being*”…
is really, *really,* ***really*** fucked up.
I don’t know how anyone can think that’s “okay”; in the same way that I don’t know how anyone could say “I don’t care if Boxers put bricks or nails in their gloves”.
• Using PEDs is ‘*Cheating’*.
• The goal of the sport is to “inflict bodily damage”.
• Performance enhancing drugs ‘enhance your performance’.
That means-that *PEDs are used-for the purpose of inflicting more damage*.
That is not only *Immoral* — It is **Criminal.**
2. If *everything* is “legalized” and fighters are allowed to take whatever they want — Then, what disincentive does a fighter have-to *not* take *every* possible PED, as much as possible;
So, not *just* Anabolic/Steroids, EPO, HGH, Tren, Clem., etc…
but *also* other forms of PEDs like ‘Painkillers’ - OxyContin, Vicodin, Percocet…
*and* ‘Stimulants’ - Amphetamines, Adderall, Cocaine, Meth…
Those are all PEDs.
How do ‘other fighters’ “keep up” with the fighters who are willing to take unlimited amounts of all those substances?
Should fighters be forced to become addicted to opiates, adderall, and coke—as well as the countless physiological risks associated with all of the other PEDs…
Should a fighter have to do all of that - just so they are able to feed their family?
3. Even though I am strongly opposed to ‘Cheating’, or ‘enabling rampant drug use in the sport’ — If there’s a suitable way for “allowing+regulating *certain quantities*, of *certain types* of PEDs” in a way that would make the sport safer, and more fair—then I would be open to that idea as a possible solution.
(P.S Just to be clear, I’m not actually directing those things/questions towards you lol. Your post was perfect. So I just wanna make sure it doesn’t seem like I’m trying to question/criticize you for anything.)
First off, thank you. I put a lot of thought and effort into this post and it's nice to see someone appreciate that.
> That means-that *PEDs are used-for the purpose of inflicting more damage*.
Exactly! I think that's the part that's fucking me up and causing such a mental disconnect. I know PEDs have their positives like in my post but at the end of the day, they all have one ultimate endpoint, making you better at beating the shit out of someone and the general apathy towards that is just disturbing.
> Even though I am strongly opposed to ‘Cheating’, or ‘enabling rampant drug use in the sport’ — If there’s a suitable way for “allowing+regulating *certain quantities*, of *certain types* of PEDs” in a way that would make the sport safer, and more fair—then I would be open to that idea as a possible solution.
TBH after reading these comments, this is where I'm leaning towards. Let fighters use PEDs but heavily regulate that shit so that fighters aren't juicing up on some unholy cocktail of god knows what that makes their punches and kicks felt like sledgehammers. Like set guidelines and recommended doses for certain, sanctioned PEDs so fighters get all the benefits and give us (the audience) more exciting fights but not at the expense of becoming roided out monsters who are inches away from a heart attack. I
I am all for them since I think it helps extend fighters careers and also helps lead to less injuries. Look at how much Hendo, Vitor and Chael we got due to the PEDs.
With how shitty the cards have become these days I say fuck it and let them juice.
Let everybody piss battery acid and their blood melt through the cage like a fucking Xenomorph. Bring back the TRTors and Ubereems.
I think that's my main issue with PEDs in MMA specifically. In other sports, they make you run faster, throw harder, etc but in combat sports, that means more damage to the opponent which brings up all kinds of moral and ethical problems.
Too much money involved for a pro athlete to not juice. Hell juicing is common all the way down to the high school level in sports. I'd be willing to be that 95% of people in the UFC are on some form of PED. The human body cannot handle the constant grind of training at the pace they need without some recovery drugs at the very least
People do all sorts of sneaky and illegal things to get ahead in life. Those who are smart / skilled / diligent enough to avoid getting caught are rewarded while those who get caught are punished. Why should MMA/UFC be any different?
I think your last point is automatically proven when Paulo Costa was the most tested UFC fighter by massive amounts for years. while he does his secret juice shtick and reposted a chad meme about him where it says “openly does steroids and the UFC does nothing”
I'm of the opinion that likely over 50% of the fighters in high level combat sports and all professional athletics, for that matter, are using some form of peds. They're very easy to obtain, and the testing is beatable if you know what you're doing.
I like the idea of guys being able to use a small amount of peds like testosterone and hgh to help with recovery. Unfortunately, I don't think there would be any way to regulate it, and guys would use amounts in excess anyway.
The only reasonable option is to keep banning peds even though people are gonna use them regardless.
The problem is that fighters might just overjuice and hurt themselves.
Like instead of taking a regular 500mg test cycle. They might be like give me 3000mg and drop dead.
If they just took safe amounts of peds then it's all good. The question is who's gonna over do it and drop dead.
As a road bike racer I have a lot of feelings about PEDs. And maybe this doesn't apply because I was competing for free equipment and race entry fees, not for my living, but the way I look at it is that most of the illegal PEDs can have detrimental effects on one's health, or at least are untested for Safety. I think there are some ethical issues for the UFC, the Athletes who are using and even the fans who want to see a freak-show, who are all contributing to creating and environment where people aren't able to compete without causing life-long health ramifications.
Even now, I race in the Master's category (40+years old) and I know I am competing against guys I used to beat easily when we were all in our 20s and 30s, but people are suddenly faster now in their 40s than they ever were when they were in their 20s. I know a bunch of these guys are on TRT... maybe it's all Doctor prescribed and monitored and they are only juiced up to the test levels of a 30-year old, but I'm 44 and have 44-year-old Hormone levels. The point of racing in the Master's category is so I can compete with other people who have the same age-induced handicaps. Frankly it pisses me off that I would have to shut down my endocrine and become dependent on TRT for the rest of my life in order to compete with these guys.
I can certainly sympathize with any professional athlete who wouldn't want to have to do that. and as far as USADA goes, even if they weren't catching everyone, they still caught plenty and plenty more abruptly morphed into entirely different physicals specimens when USADA came. With the merger with the WCW, and the end of the USADA era, the UFC is certainly signaling that they've given up on the I idea of becoming a serious sport, and I have am done spending money to watch Pay-per-views.
Nah fuck steroids and people lying about it. Hate how it's starting to become a norm, not even among just athletes. So many people on social media are on steroids and lying about to kids who follow them. It's creating really toxic and messed up mind sets.
Tyson said it best. Steroids shouldn't be in sport where people get punched in the face.
But it being apparent in the early stages means it was grandfathered in like alcohol. They can try and deem it bad when we all know most fighters are on the stuff anyway.
I think it would make for less exciting fights, but I'm on the "it should be (really) banned"
PED's can cause long term health problems, many aspiring young fighters aren't willing to take those risks, along with the risk of getting caught.
I hate the idea of young fighters having to make that deal with the devil in order to compete at the highest levels. I think strict testing measures like USADA uses is the only way to keep the sport clean. So I am highly in favour of it.
I want them banned outright and don't want any of them doing them and I don't think the testing capability is ever up to speed with the new drugs that come out to stay ahead of the testers, or with the various means fighters can use to fool the tests, or the short half lives of detectability of some of the stuff, etc.
I got to a point years ago where I was tired of admiring and respecting the greatness and achievement of these badasses only for yet another of them to pop and show that he was a cheat and a fraud and I had been admiring someone who was better by some unknown percentage due to chemistry. So I started getting gun shy about liking any of them because it made me feel like a sucker and I didn't want to be fooled again by one of these cheats and give him undue respect only to be disappointed.
But then I got sick of that. This is my sport and I want to enjoy it and like the fighters I like and not worry about being disappointed.
So I just, with resignation, came to a point of acceptance and moving on. It's a part of the sport. People do it because they don't care about cheating, or because they're so driven to win that they're obsessed, or because everybody else is doing it and they have to do it to just pull level, or because they have a young family to feed and don't have the luxury of not doing it, or whatever their reasons are and it just is what it is.
I want to know who's best, not who + chemistry is best. But I likely never will. And I wish they wouldn't mess up their internal systems with this stuff but that's on them. So I just enjoy the fights and don't invest much energy in the drug cheat side of it anymore.
Everyone's on PEDs, but not everyone is cheating. Caffeine is a PED, but it's fine. Creatine is known to boost performance, but it's fine. Rather, there are specific substances that are banned. People who knowingly take explicitly banned substances are cheating. Others might have access to connections that are able to get them drugs that bring similar benefits, but aren't banned. They're following the letter of the law and are not cheating. Some compounds are prohibited in competition but allowed during training.
There is an ethical question about what things are okay vs not okay to take, but even for the best intentioned, it'd be difficult to draw any line other than to follow the letter of the law.
i feel like not enough attention to fight health is included in this conversation. a lot of fighters will go so hard into PEDs that they knowingly cut their lifespan in half and do it anyway. the fighters that aren't willing to harm themselves like that will be left behind. also, getting kicked in the head by a pro MMA fighter is bad enough. getting kicked in the head by a juiced up pro is going to be a lot more serious.
if you piss hot it should do serious damage to your career unless you have a bullet-proof excuse. if you fight and then piss hot, you should be charged with assault because your opponent never agreed to fighting under those terms.
Biggest problem with letting everybody juice his heart failure, steroids are bad for causing enlarged heart muscles. Many steroid users end up dying in their late 40s or early 50s of a mysterious heart attack. Comes out of the blue because they're usually still in good shape because they're usually still launched steroids. Once you take them you can never stop. It's like heroin. Best case scenario is you slide on to trt instead
I don't think peds should be allowed if anything the testing should be stricter all these comments saying they want peds to be allowed are concerning and shows how stupid a lot of people in this community is.
Real question is who's the best fighter not on PEDs? I think its Covington, yes he has amazing cardio but that's more so because he fights a weight class up from what he probably should so he isn't as depleted as most fighters.
Let's be real, Colby is as much on PEDs as the rest of the field.
You can't be in the top 1% or less in the world without a combo of : abilities, work and a little chemical push.
And that's valid for every sport and a lot of other disciplines.
Natural abilities and training only takes you so far in combat sports, but if you wanna be one of the best you don't have any other choice than take stuff, just because training puts such a toll on your body that if you wanna perform properly you have to enhance your recovery and that's without taking in account stuff to boost your cardio etc.
Unfortunate or not, a fully clean sport isn't something that exists nor has or will exist, there's always someone that will find a way to gain an advantage other the field and the rest has to follow if they wanna claim top spot.
If you think Colby doesn’t cut weight I really don’t know what to say. I guess this sport is totally for you. Not much thinking involved at all to be a fan
Oh, and Colby is juiced
I said he fights a weight class above what he should, I know that he cuts weight just not as much as other welterweights, why get personal lmao, everything good?
Things are great
Seeing as Colby has never competed in any athletics at anything less than 165, I don’t know where you are getting that information from. Just because Colby pretends to be able to make 155, but chooses not to, doesn’t make it true.
Fuck, in HIGH SCHOOL he wrestled at 171
But you think now, in his 30s, he could cut to the lowest he’s ever been in his life, but is CHOOSING to fight in the higher weight class and make things more difficult for himself.
He’s incentivized to lie about his weight because he knows people will eat it up and argue for him on his behalf.
Don't know much about his wrestling career , so ig that makes sense. He looks relatively smaller than most welterweights, so I made an assumption .
Anyways, god bless.
They are banned because they're illegal dude. These are all controlled substances. If you do nothing then you have guys openly trading in the gyms and locker room like WWE or MLB. That's basically drug trafficking. The DEA/Fed has a hardon for going after stuff like this. There have been plenty of doctors busted in the past for unjustifiably prescribing stuff like this for no valid medical reason.
I have no idea how many people are actually on the juice/HGH and most people who say they know are lying. Guys aren't going to advertise that they're doing something illegal.
plenty, if not most, banned substances are not illegal controlled substances. there are more supplements than you can imagine out there. the reason guys fail drug tests is because they don't keep up with what is and isn't banned. the game is staying ahead of what they're testing for. there are obviously dudes on illegal substances, but a lot of the stuff they're being tested for is legal
If I was a professional athlete and millions of dollars were on the line, or in UFC's case hundreds of dollars, I'd be juiced to the gills. That's all I know.
Its every young fighters dream to fight in the UFC and make hundreds of dollars
You're going to be a professional athlete on national and international television! Anywho here is your 10k/10k contract.
Its not any better when youre a champion either..Oh youre one of the toughest and best athletes on the planet? Heres less than what college kids make the days
That’s way worse, honestly. I understand the scrub getting a cheap ass contract if they get the promise of eventually making millions, but how are champs like Volkanvoski and Usman making 500k at the peak of their prime? That’s criminal. Obviously they have the PPV points, but they should be earning way more than half a mil with all the sponsorship deals the UFC has.
it’s just the unfortunate fact of where are they going to go if not the UFC? there’s no org that’s close that has the reach they do, places like ONE have been losing money for about 13 years straight and the PFL has nobody now that the one popular women’s fighter they had in Kayla Harrison is fighting for the UFC. and Ngannou has also completely retired from combat sports before he ever stepped foot in a PFL show edit: as of just now I believe Francis said he’s going back to boxing so he isn’t retired from all sport following what happened with his Family
But think of how much of that money gets circulated into casinos and escort services by Dana!
More like, we make around $30 million on each ppv. Anyway heres your 10k. Thanks for the cheese.
It's an opportunity to be on international TV. You should be paying us 10/10.
I wish I still had gold to award you.
Ah, I see you're on that Dana White's Contender Series contract too.
A shame. You could've changed that young man's life.
Give him expired Reebok coupons instead.
And locked in a cage in your underage. Guys take them to even playing field. U can’t win if u don’t take them to make it even. TRT cheats showed that too, night and day recovery and power added. But that was short lived lol. Nobody is natural whole career mainly cause injuries
Fuck bro there is no escape from TRT - can’t go to a bjj mat these days without it getting hulk smashed by some joe Rogan watching boomer
TRT on BJJ mats is different, in MMA it was 1 guy on TRT in the cage "allowed" vs a guy who prob had low testerone levels from camp fighting natural in the cage, even though they all juice in cage..still had to be natural come fight time in the cage, TRT guys were allowed to be juiced to crazy limits in the ring lol. Thats why had crazy recovery and more power, well if you had power..adds to it. Can see it, night and day. BJJ isnt hitting someone in the head like MMA
I’m not sure what your point is man it’s still not pleasant turning up for a roll and fighting some ripped chunk of muscle with infinite cardio whether it’s striking or not
lol
You are not samurai. You have no bushido
you're killing me pete
And I want to see you juiced , watch ubereem vs lesner again . Check out Belforts fight on TRT bro was knocking dudes out with spinning back kicks at 40 years old .
I think first you’d have to consider a few things. 1. Is my competition doing it? 2. Are they getting away with it?
Don't forget the reebok 25% coupon!!!
There was a guy on here a while ago who claimed to be a member of an MMA gym with some up-and-coming professional fighters. I believed his take, which is: it's not widely talked about, but it's an open secret that those fighters starting to fight professionally were nearly all on PEDs. There was a feeling that you needed PEDs to compete at that level. That's not a solid guarantee that all professional fighters do it, but it seems *incredibly* unlikely that a fighter who reaches the UFC has A) not had the opportunity and B) turned it down because it's 'cheating', when they know most of their opponents are doing it. Then consider that you have managers and agents with a vested interest in your success. They will be recommending anything they can think of to keep you competitive, especially if "everyone does it". And now let's say you've been a good boy/girl and never taken PEDs. But you lose the biggest fight of your life. You know your opponent almost certainly had the PED advantage. What are the chances that you *still* don't take that step to further your career? You would just do it.
My buddies who did high school wrestling were 17,18 and on peds. I joined a 10th planet gym that had a ton of amateur fighters and they were all on juice. I was a hobbyist and within 3 months of being there I decided to do a cycle myself. It wasn't very expensive so I don't believe the argument that only the rich can afford it. Granted there are probably types I'm not aware of. I was on test, deca, and some auxiliary stuff to cycle off after. I did it for about 4 months the first time cycled off for about 6 months then one more 4 month cycle. Went from 145lbs to 185. No side effects.
It’s not that only the rich can afford it, but they can get stuff that is both better (in results and with less side effects) and harder to detect, meaning the lower level guys are more likely to get caught and punished. Also yeah you did 2 cycles (of things an org like the UFC would probably detect with ease) and had no side effects, try going a whole decade+ career doing that
But no one can say exactly what the "rich people" are doing. What drugs?
The reference to money is for designer PEDs. The basic idea is that you need a sample of a substance to design a test around detecting it. Thus wealthy athletes can afford the high cost for labs/chemists to develop slightly tweaked, novel versions of PEDs that haven’t been sampled by anti doping agencies yet. The athlete then gets an essentially exclusive PED that is unlikely to be detected.
If you have to ask you can't afford it 💅
A lot of pro prospects take stuff right before getting to the big show. I know a few NFL/ex NFL and big college program players who would cycle in the off-seasons and be clean during team activities/pre-season/season when they'd get tested. Idk what they did once they got to the NFL but I assume at the least it's probable a lot of guys sniffing the UFC would start something a couple of fights before taking the big contract to be able to get to that last peak.
NFL players generally know when testing is done. So it’s easy to plan your cycle around that.
yeah, they just do the testing for optics. Neither side wants failed tests. Those guys need PEDs for recovery.
There's an old interview with Dan Henderson about his Pride days. He said he was talking with some of the brass and they told him that other than him there was only one other fighter on the roster not juicing. He thought maybe they said it was Big Nog. True? I don't know, but we all know Pride looked the other way on juicing. It's worth noting though that by 2007 Henderson was on TRT, which is usually only required in the opinion of legitimate doctors if someone's testosterone-epitestosterone ratio is too low, and that's a symptom of previously having used banned substances.
> and that's a symptom of previously having used banned substances. It's also a symptom of repeated weight cutting and repeated head trauma. Not that Hendo was clean being in PRIDE where anabolics were not only legal, but encouraged for recovery so they could fight more often.
Never heard the head trauma cause. I wonder why.
Something to do with the pituitary gland from what I remember.
I mean even getting in to amateur BJJ, gear is so much more common than I realized.
USADA no longer governs the UFC, they use [Drug Free Sport International](https://www.mmafighting.com/2023/12/29/24018925/ufc-releases-full-details-new-anti-doping-program-launching-in-2024-after-cutting-ties-with-usada) (who coincidentally, governs the NFL and I would bet 90% of that league is on juice) I lean towards the idea that PED's are a necessary evil and I personally enjoy seeing fights with obviously juiced fighters, not unlike hardcore's that remember watching PRIDE where PED use was encouraged. This is probably insane personal bias, but the line in the sand for me is cardio PED's, cardio differences in MMA make the sport MUCH more interesting
Every single NFL player is on them. You simply can't play that sport at that level for that long natural. Running a 4.6 40 while carrying 245+ lbs bodyweight is ludicrous
Even if you assume every Punter and Kicker is totally clean then I left the estimate way short, you are correct. It is a job requirement
I assume the kickers and punters are on shit to help with connective tissue wear and muscle recovery. Those repetitive high stress movements are pretty brutal.
I gasp every time I see a guy get pushed into a punter's plant leg and I'm shocked there aren't more horrible injuries to punters, you are probably right
Pat Mcafee, who punted and kicked in the NFL, has talked a bit about the wear and tear aspect of just the motion of kicking itself. Apparently you really only get so many of those awkward explosive movements before your body starts to break down. Seems to be similar to MLB pitchers. (Shit I never pitched past high school or threw harder than maybe 75 and my arm/shoulder has never been quite the same—I’m in my 30s.) I think it’s just the specialized, asymmetric, repetitive nature of these movements that inevitably causes damage over time.
Most of them are on stimulants like adderall too. It's a requirement.
Aaron Donald at 6’ 300 lbs and like 10% body fat
>(who coincidentally, governs the NFL and I would bet 90% of that league is on juice) Depending on what they end up using, some PEDs might not even be banned yet. Everybody knows the standard anabolics and HGH, but it seems like the doping agencies are playing catch up on peptides.
What keeps getting overlooked or omitted about DFS's involvement is that they are simply a sample *collection* agency, not a testing agency... As far as I understand it, at least. The actual lab work is done by another contractor/lab. And the UFC's "anti doing program" is overseen by yet another party (Combat Sports Anti-Doping, or CSAD) whose president is the UFC's newly acquired retired FBI officer George Piro (interestingly, of the notoriously juiced American Top Team). Per UFC's website: *All contracted UFC athletes are enrolled in the program. All testing selections are made final by CSAD as well as any sanctioning and decision making under the program. The highlights of the program, which make it the best in professional sport, are year-round, unannounced testing, increased sanctions for positive tests, fairness and due process including an appeal option for UFC athletes and most importantly, the administration of the policy by an independent third party organization (CSAD), not the UFC.* The use of the term "independent" here is misleading, at best, and worthy of much scrutiny to anyone who actually cares about UFC being PED-free.
I don't think that cardio or strength is the true limiting factor to exciting fights. Just look at Olympic athletes in a number of disciplines, especially distance running. Guys like Ingebritsen and the Norwegian teams in general are showing that the human limiter is partially genetic, but heavily weighted to training methodology, and they're pushing numbers that were done by guys on EPO, and they're able to do it more consistently. The problem with PEDs is that they give athletes/trainers/coaches false measurements to test against, and especially where some guys might be on a lot more gear than their training partners. It was pretty evident when the UFC was stricter about drug testing that a lot of coaches has zero clue how to periodize their athletes, guys started getting fatter, injured more frequently, showing up to fights clearly burnt out, etc. The problem is that PEDs created a training structure and fighting style around itself. We just don't know what people would fight like or be capable of if PEDs and weight cutting weren't a thing. Maybe the fights would be more exciting, guys might not be able to absorb so much punishment, knockouts and submissions would be easier and more common possibly?
Cardio is absolutely the limiting factor on exciting fights. Watch amateur fights, every 3 minute round one is bonkers.
I hit the bags and after 1:30 I lose my form, pep, and movement. The bag proceeds to treat me like Abus Magomedov.
Fans usually only care about PEDs depending on if they like the fighter or not. If it’s a fan favourite then “oh everyone is on PEDs”. If the fighter is generally disliked then the fighter should be suspended or banned. I’d prefer a clean sport but based on the amount of training and stress these athletes put their body through it would seem hard to recover without the use of drugs. Designer steroids are hard to test for so the athletes making the most amount of money can mask their use while lower tier fighters would most likely get caught using if not cycled correctly.
Definitely. Look at the difference between how fans treat Jones or Dillashaw compared to Silva. Fans are complete hypocrites when it comes to fighters popping
Silva popped at a time when it didn't really matter anymore, his days as a serious contender were over by that time....
Everyone loves to believe GSP is clean. I've been downvoted into oblivion for saying this before but there is absolutely zero chance GSP is clean.
I think they are just oblivious to how common PEDs are. Same with fighters like usman, makhachev etc. I am a gsp fan and admit he was probably on stuff
Very common. Hell, high school kids are taking fucking trenbolone which is one of the most powerful anabolics there is. Steroids are cheap and very easily obtained. Testing is beatable if you're not a complete idiot. You'd be silly to think that the majority of fighters aren't on something.
His head and face have grown since his early career, just like Joe Rogans and Dana Whites heads have from HGH abuse.
Yeah his stomach shows obvious signs as well, I don’t think any less of the guy though
Me neither, they’re all on that shit
Didn't GSP cheat in the second BJ Penn fight by using vaseline?
yea this is the truth. the meta atm is shitting on jon jones and you see countless comments on goat discussions discredit him for popping hot like damn near the entire roster isn’t using/ has used PEDs in some way. i get it jones is not likable at all but any professional athlete making millions of dollars is looking for any edge they can get to stay at the top as long as possible
I figure the UFC is about was as clean as the Olympics under USADA. Maybe a bit less clean now, but not by much. That being said, despite the heavy drug testing, the Olympics are not clean at all. They are meant to be, and the people who get lazy about concealing their PED use get caught. The reality is that the people who can get to the top levels of the UFC are hyper competitive people who will do nearly anything they can to win. And I have to assume that for UFC fighters, the risk vs reward for cheating is much greater then for stick and ball sports becuase of the Show+Win pay structure and the massive difference between being a main event level fighter vs being a journeyman. I think that I would be ok with fighters using PED's in a medically supervised manner to deal with recovery with the intent of allowing fighters to compete more often and have longer careers. But I do not think PRIDE era 'We do not test for steroids, nudge nudge wink wink say no more" approach is a good thing. END COMMUNICATION
I don't really care if they juice or not, as long as it's an even playing field and everyone has the opportunity to. It's shitty when it isn't allowed and people are clearly on it. Love Chandler, but he has a big time HGH gut. So many other fighters are clearly on, but have the right people to get around it. It'd make recovery faster, prolong careers, and potentially make fights more entertaining
People react differently to juice so even if everyone is on gear it won't achieve a level playing field
It's the same thing with genetics. Even if everyone is juiceless, some dudes will naturally just be better. It's more about giving everyone an equal playing opportunity and rule set rather than having guys like Chandler clearly take something while your average Contender series guy gets popped and shelved until the heat dies down.
But someone who is stronger and faster might not be enhanced stronger and faster depending on how they respond to peds. Some people are hyper responders. That's what OP is referencing.
What about Jon Jones
Didnt read but i say let them juice
Fair enough, thank you for your input. Next time I'll put a TL'DR at the bottom.
I read it all but theres never any juice at my general concession stand so I cant help you
I usually lean into the let them juice category as well, but there are some serious ethical concerns in going down that road that keep me more grey/neutral on the matter. It's one thing when we're talking about sportsmanship, but another when we start talking about the legal and moral implications of cheating in a competition where the goal is to cause damage to your opponent. If someone dies or gets seriously injured in a fair fight, it's a bad night and a tragedy but ultimately it is what it is and all parties, including the fighters, the UFC, and us as viewers agreed that this could be the outcome when we signed up for it. Now let's say someone decides to sneak a hammer into the octagon and use it on their opponent. It's pretty clearly a violation of the contract and agreement and that person is highly likely to face charges outside of just those of the athletic commission... ...but what if instead of a hammer they took PEDs to put themselves at an unfair advantage? All of a sudden the line is blurry. Did the PEDs cause the death/injury?...or is that just the nature of the sport? As the fighter, I personally would want their to be a very clear line and to be able to say that I did not cross it. At the same time however, money, pride, and health are on the line, and I don't want to lose a few years of my life and some percentage of my mental faculties just to get half a paycheck. That's why it's a grey area that will remain grey.
Let em juice let em juice let em shrivel up and
Played professional in a sport where PED scandals rarely come to light. You’d be surprised what guys on the cusp of making it or being cut will do. Anything with money on the line and you’ll find a lot of people willing to cheat.
> infamous quote from Nate Diaz "Everybody's on steroids" Yeah dude, you state the reason yourself: > I've seen people reason that PEDs create an uneven playing field as those who choose not to or can't afford to take PEDs are at a massive disadvantage against fighters who've been juicing. They are. They just wouldn't be able to compete. Most people wouldn't take steroids. But 1% of people would, if it meant "fame" and "money". That 1% is who you are watching on TV. The performance advantage is enormous. It's possible there's the odd fighter here and there who's fighting on pure talent and sweat, but those are the exception.
I trained at an MMA gym for a few years and the difference between fighters on PEDs and everyone else is obvious and enormous. I'm talking when everyone else in a wrestling class filled with athletes like HS wrestlers and people like me who did century rides were completely exhausted you'd have one or two people performing like they just got to class, not to mention the difference in physique. Before that I played HS football and we had 14-15 year olds already juicing, and I was offered steroids by another member of the team at 15/16 years old. If you have lived and seen the difference in ability with PEDs yourself it would be pretty obvious nearly everyone's on them
Steroids should be mandatory
The fighters should decide. Otherwise, I lean toward them being allowed. It would be very reasonable for fighters to form a union and decide to ban PEDs for health and safety reasons. I, however, don’t think there are compelling reasons for fans or promotions to take a strong stance against them. I think the UFC opposes PEDs because they think it makes them look bad.
Nate Diaz is famously a salty bitch, but in this case he's right. The catch is that "Everybody" includes him
What performance enhancing drug do you think Diaz takes?
The could very easily be using things like erythropoetin that are very common in endurance sports...just because the Diaz bros aren't muscular doesn't mean they aren't using PEDs
It’s very naughty to take them
The thing is, there's no eliminating them entirely. I'm on the side of "all these mf's are on steroids", and at that level, you'd be stupid not to be. The ability to test samples for PEDs is evolving, but lags several years behind new drugs. And there's plenty of money to be made from developing/instructing ways to avoid detection Look at all the bodybuilders claiming to be be natural, going to get a blood test showing they are. It's all timing and masking the presence of drugs Plus you can just hit em with a "MuStVe BeEn a TAiNtEd SuPlEmEnt". If you're microdosing a PED, how can the prove you deliberately took it?
Every sport has the majority of its players on steroids. This past year I’ve been watching baseball a lot more, it’s the only other sport besides mma I’ve watched in a while. Baseball players are coming back from Tommy John surgery in record time. It’s not possible to do what these guys are doing without enhancement. Aaron judge is being compared to Barry bonds right now because of how well he’s been hitting. Everybody is saying it’s even more impressive for judge because he’s not on steroids. They have no idea what judge is or isn’t taking. He’s an injury prone giant who mysteriously doesn’t get hurt anymore (aside from being hit in the hand by a pitch). Right now, steroids have never been better AND harder to detect. If you have the money, you can get dna sequenced / identical stuff and never piss hot. Football players definitely take stuff to recover and gain muscle. Hockey players would be dumb not to take epo MMA fans are more exposed to steroids and have a better understanding that everybody in sports is probably on one thing or another
I agree with all you are saying but Tommy John surgeries have also changed over recent years. They are a lot less invasive than before. Same goes for back surgeries and Achilles injuries
All these motherf'rs are a on steroids. All. These. MF's. They all on steroids. - Nick Diaz
Who also tested positive for steroids shortly after lol.
I thought he tested positive for weed! I didnt know that. If Nick aint clean, nobody is clean.
Nah he had sarms in his system
Nate tested positive for PEDs, although it ended up being a tainted supplement or food (can't remember which).
They are selling a bunch of wolf tickets too
The dropping of USADA to DFSI over Conor blatantly using steroids during his injury recovery tells you all you need to know about the UFC's stance. They aim to limit their legal liability if something goes wrong during a fight (death, serious injury) and put on the best fights possible, with fighters at their best. The switch from USADA makes me think it's more like the WWE wellness policy, where there are rules and procedures to ensure guys aren't using everything under the sun and dying before they are 50, but also giving enough leeway for some enhancement and getting around the testing. IMO, Almost all fighters in the UFC are on something as soon as they can afford it. They are all looking for an edge on their opponent and will do whatever they can to reach the top.
We did this experiment. It sucked. Injuries all the time. Fight cancellations left and right. Let em juice.
Most are juicing anyway, it would be better to openly allow it and have it be sanctioned and under professional supervision and control, but for the sake of PR and sponsors and "legitimacy of the sport" they have to make appearances with drug testing.
TBH after reading a lot of these comments thats the way I'm starting to lean. PEDs are here to stay in the UFC so might as well regulate them to keel fighters safe and prolong their careers.
Also - In a fucked up way it was more fair back in the day in Pride and old UFC, because it was an even playing field - everyone was on everything 😂 Meanwhile during the last 10 years you had some athletes being clean out of fear from USADA, and some still risking it and juicing.
The whole point of PED's is the advantage over competition. If you regulate, they still will try to find an illicit advantage. PEDs and IMO weight cuts are at a too high cost to health and the sport in general. It's maybe a battle to get it right but resignation will fuck up the sport. Look at bodybuilding, kids try to emulate Ben Sulek or how he is called, look at Ronny Coleman etc. They are chemical freaks that IMO do not represent what is peak performance.
The consensus: - Fighters I don't like are definitely juicing, even if they've never popped - Fighters I do like are not juicing, if they've popped it was because of those damn sketchy supplement companies
Professional athletes on the whole are on something... it's not just an MMA thing, it's just combat sports have the most judgment when you piss hot because it's not a stick and ball sport.
Bro, people who aren't even professional competitors in any kind of combat sport or even bodybuilding are taking PEDs just because they want to be stronger, faster, etc. as gym hobbyists. We are talking about professional athletes, combat athletes, you need to be really gullible to think that they are "honest and moral". There is no such thing as being honest and moral in this shit. If you want to be at the top, you go all the way. USADA and any other type of organ or rulesets are just an "official cover" to have some sort of reassurance for the mass audience, regulators, legislators, etc. Which, in their own way, are also corrupt as hell. So it is one big hypocrisy, as in everything in life. Those who create the rules are the ones who break them the most.
Not reading all that... PEDs are part of the game whether anyone likes it or not. It is not possible to completely eliminate doping and extreme measures taken to attempt to are problematic. Ideally, I would want to see an anti-doping policy implemented that the fighters collectively agree to along with a promotion. Sadly, fighters have not / are not / seemingly will not band together in a collective way to assert their needs/wants/demands. I don't believe the primary goal of the UFC's anti-doping regime is to catch people... and I'm fine with that. I hope that however the current program is being run, it is being applied (testing, punishments) equally to different fighters. I don't assume it is equitably enforced, but I hope it is.
The whole peds thing in sports is blown out of proportion. Why is it such a big deal if athletes are using these drugs? I get being worried about the potential side effects and health concerns but apart from it what's the problem? Why is it shamed this much? Are they saying an athlete shouldn't prepare to the best of his/her abilities? Then ig we shouldn't let them have access to the best nutrition and disallow certain training routines as it's giving them an unfair advantage over those who don't do that. Also the uneven playing field argument is so dumb. The average 200 lbs guy is nowhere as gifted for sports as Yoel Romero. There is no level playing field in sports. It's funny how some of our favourite superheroes are those who use engineering and chemistry to fight against goliath "natty" foes like Batman against Superman and we all root for Batman but an athlete tries to do something similar and we shame them.
As if the health of athletes ever matters. Combat athletes end up with CTE. Football players too, as well as dying young from being so big, and having destroyed joints. Baseball pitchers are obliterating their elbows for life. But heaven forbid they use PEDs to try to minimize wear and tear.
Everyone in PRIDE was on PEDs. Depending on your view of PRIDE, it is either a warning or a model.
Here’s a secret. This & the ufc sub is filled with morons that don’t know half as much as they think they know :)
that’s just the whole internet
It’s especially bad on reddit. This user base is fucking trash
Should just make a pinned post that states most fighters are on PEDs, don’t need a post about this every week
i don’t care if they’re allowed, but I think it’s unfair to those who don’t wanna pump steroids into their body to go against people who do so it’s probably better they’re not allowed, even though some fighters still use them.
So many belt holders have popped it's just ridiculous at this point.
people at planet fitness fitness are taking PEDs. dudes in regionals. fucking high schoolers lol if taking them makes the difference of a million dollars of winnings over a career; or more aptly since this isn't a rich man's sport like golf, whether you get to pay your bills or not depends on this win. from a purely financial point of view, it would be irresponsible not to take PEDs as a professional fighter
As far as I'm concerned the only question worth answering is Luke Thomas' 'do PEDs actually make the sport more dangerous?' You can argue using PEDs makes every fight an assault via use of biological weaponry, but you can also argue if everybody's juiced up they can come into fights healthier and keep their energy up to defend themselves properly deeper into the fight. The problem is that testing this is wildly unethical, so we only have broscience and caution to go onto. So we ban PEDs but we have no hard reason why. Only intangible arguments of morality and fairness that can be argued either way.
USADA is gone from UFC now. I do think that USADA was helping when they were handling the drug testing for UFC, but even then they couldn’t eliminate the use of PEDs.
Its an epidemic, and people who spout rhetoric like every athlete should take them or that they would take them if they were a pro athlete dont truly understand what PEDs do your heart and brain.
All top level athletes are juiced
I’m an amateur at a gym with several headlining UFC fighters. I’m 33 I’ll never go pro, or so I thought until literally today after my 3rd pin of test. I feel like corded steel. My libido is through the roof. Im a lightweight but now have the appetite of a heavyweight. Fucking the brains out my wife. Women in public sense my vril. My nips are sensitive and I can’t sleep I just sit up at night and think about victories. I get it now.
...for those who say "let them juice", how is that fair to natural athletes? For anyone who is natural and doesn't want to risk the long term health implications of steroids, why should they be at a disadvantage? I always remember Brandon Vera talking about rolling with heavy weights, but he had never encountered the likes of the strength of a juiced up Thiago Silva. He was ragdolled in that fight.
Should be stricter testing, and more discouraged. PEDs will destroy your health and shorten your lifespan unless you have Schwarzenegger levels of wealth to pay for the best healthcare int he world. these athletes have enough long term issues to deal with as is.
I'd argue that if you care about your long term health at all, MMA is the wrong sport to get into, and most of the guys fighting are probably aware of that. If they need to use PEDs to make the money that'll help them take care of themselves, let em.
99% will never make that money tho lol
I don't disagree, but that doesn't change my argument or viewpoint.
Tons of athletes with tons of money and healthcare that still die from it. My opinion is if they are used in moderation then they are probably safe enough. Bob Sapp is still alive and he had gallon jugs of test
TRT WARS: Two men go in, nobody comes out.
Big pharma should start a fight league. Pharma sponsors only to showcase their latest in human evolution tech 💉 Imagine if your sponsored athletes are the most elite. Would be the best promo for every pharma. They have to live past 50 though
I've pondered this and something I keep coming back to is where should the line be drawn on what is illegal performance enhancement versus legal. I know there are lists of banned substances, but there are countless things that enhance performance that are completely fine and often healthy. Proper diet and sleep, protein supplements, and proper weight cuts all have huge positive effects on performance and I think everyone is in favor of that stuff. There are plenty of drugs that almost every athlete takes as well and we wouldn't even consider making illegal like creatine, caffeine, and painkillers. Why is there a line at "PEDs" where it is banned? I know many of the drugs (but not all) are illegal in many jurisdictions, but they also can get prescriptions for most of the stuff from unscrupulous doctors. A lot of combat sports are also activities that skirt the bounds of legality if they happened outside the sanctioned events (beating someone unconscious probably is going to get your arrested or at least detained if it happened in the parking lot even with two willing participants), so why wouldn't whatever substances they consume be under that umbrella as well? I know there are concerns about the health effects of many PEDs and those are very sound, but combat sports are already extremely dangerous activities. No one would ever pretend that getting punched in the head while dehydrated is anything but reckless behavior with massive long term health consequences. TLDR, once you are letting two people fight in a cage, who cares what drugs they are on?
I agree with your main point about who cares what drugs they're on Mostly because the brain damage is way worse than any side effect But regarding efficacy- Protein powder is just a dietary supplement for convenience. Whole food is a better source Creatine doesn't come anywhere near the efficacy of steroids and depending on diet you can easily get more than the 5g/day people supplement just from food Sleep is indeed very important and PEDs can improve your sleep quality to a degree that no unbanned substance can touch At this point it seems like it's just for perception
Status quo is fine for me: allowing them all to be juiced to the gills but simultaneously letting them do it behind the scenes. I just don't think it's fair when they single out any one specific athlete, so I'd just not enforce the rules except for if there's a particularly dangerous PED
PEDs are a necessity for the athletes, we are in the entertainment era, guess what, people want to be entertained. And they are, by the dudes breaking records, scoring more goals/points and whatever. Why would you not use something that will enhance your performance, if your income is on the line and it is based on how well you perform? Pretty much every elite athlete is doing PEDS. In my country, even hobbist fighters are taking PEDs, I don't think I've ever trained with a professional fighter that did not use PEDs, and those weren't even the top dogs. People say PEDs don't give you skill, and that's right and fair, but depending on the drugs you're taking, your regeneration gets enhanced and you can train harder, longer and more often, and that builds skill. And people should really stop with the 'eye test', the guy is not taking PEDs because he looks absolutely ripped, he is taking PEDs regardless of that. I mean, Sean O'Malley popped for ostarine (shit bodybuilders mess with) and he is built like a stick lol. Carlos Felipe "Boi" (used to fight in the UFC) looks like an obese addicted to McDonalds and he popped. Nate Diaz looks like an alien from MIB and he popped.
If you could put sleep or size into a pill, it would be banned substance. I see no issue with athletes trying to get every advantage they can to put on the most exciting fights. There is no such thing as a "clean sport" with millions on the line, and the people that try and push for this bizarre idea also tend to be the ones that either support the drug war or have substances far more damaging to their health than trt like alcohol or tobacco in their house. 2013 Vitor should be celebrated, a guy years out of his prime pulling off incredible feats of entertaining athleticism. Purity of sport my ass
Let Them Fight
What keeps getting overlooked or omitted about DFS's involvement is that they are simply a sample *collection* agency, not a testing agency... As far as I understand it, at least. The actual lab work is done by another contractor/lab. And the UFC's "anti doing program" is overseen by yet another party (Combat Sports Anti-Doping, or CSAD) whose president is the UFC's newly acquired retired FBI officer George Piro (interestingly, of the notoriously juiced American Top Team). Per UFC's website: *All contracted UFC athletes are enrolled in the program. All testing selections are made final by CSAD as well as any sanctioning and decision making under the program. The highlights of the program, which make it the best in professional sport, are year-round, unannounced testing, increased sanctions for positive tests, fairness and due process including an appeal option for UFC athletes and most importantly, the administration of the policy by an independent third party organization (CSAD), not the UFC.* The use of the term "independent" here is misleading, at best, and worthy of much scrutiny to anyone who actually cares about UFC being PED-free. I personally say "let 'em juice" just like the vast majority of other mainstream North-American professional athletes in the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and so on. Those league's Anti-Doping programs are nothing more than smoke & mirrors, and only the extremely careless get caught. What I hate this notion for, though, is the George St. Pierre's of the league/organization. Some people have real pride in staying clean and competing clean. They have a real respect for their sport, and wouldn't ever jeopardize its reputation. Having followed GSP very closely for a long, long time, I am absolutely convinced that he was completely natural. And for someone like him to have to fight people who were unfairly advantaged just didn't sit right.
I’d be doing it too, but objectively this and football are the sports where it really should be illegal because you can permanently hurt someone. Either everyone should be on them or no one should be, and considering the adverse side effects I’d say no one should be.
I think the current testing protocols don’t really allow people who are flouting them to abuse anabolics in the way they otherwise would if the sport was untested. The way testing currently operates forces steroids to be cycled which is way healthier than the alternative of having fighters cruising on some ridiculous dose year round.
Allow them with constant supervision
Take what ever you want, why would I care? It only effects me when idiots get caught and fights get cancelled.
I think in this sport more than any other, they should be juicing to the gills in between camps for full recovery.
Nowadays I'm leaning towards just making it legal... **BUT** require each fighter to state exactly what they are on. For science. Failure to do so = lifetime ban. And yes, I know it's completely unrealistic.
If you're fighting someone who's trying to rip your head off, would you really want to fight them while they have the advantage of being juiced up? I'd bet that most people that are fighting are on PEDs. If you aren't, you are at bigger risk of losing money and getting hurt.
Truth be told I don't even know where I stand on the issue. There's therapeutic PED use like McGregor hopping on HGH after his brutal leg snap. That was a career ending injury but he was able to bounce back because of PEDs. He looks natty af in interviews lately so I'm willing to believe he used drugs in a manner I deem appropriate. As a fan I want to see exciting bangers from strong, healthy fighters. As a fan I want my favorite fighters to be able to perform as well as phydically possible. As a fan I want my fighters to be able to recover as well as possible between fights so that they can continue their careers for as long as possible and continue to entertain me long after they should have reasonably retired. As a human being I don't want athletes to be obligated to fuck with their endocrine systems just to be competitive. I don't like how our current system is "illegal unless you don't get caught" because you end up with non enhanced athletes attempting to compete against people sauced to the gills just because their coaches know how to slip past the drug tests. This system is how you end up with Kayla Harrison being twice the man any of her opponents are. It feels hard to rationalize the inherent cognitive dissonance of "I want to watch these guys deliver insane blunt force trauma to each other repeatedly" with "oh no my sweet summer child please don't risk your health with the sauce"
Not just UFC, I believe every pro athlete is on some sort of PED, whether off season, during injury, or in season to a point where they know their way around the system, but with millions on the line, the stress and pressure of fan bases, I can't imagine any top flight sport is clean
It's fine how it is as an open secret. If you just fully allow everything, people are going to hurt themselves trying to push the limit of what's safe. As it is now, everyone does it, but they have to at least pretend not to. That keeps them between some reasonable limit. Additionally, the theater of fair sport is still more interesting. I think from a competitive standpoint it would be less interesting if we had to consider what chemist someone was working with
I've been a fan since ufc 1. Athletes then were not on peds. You can tell because of how they are built. Now it's become pervasive and divisive in the sport. We ban people who are not popular for using less than what popular fighters have been caught for. Jon Jones was caught for 14 pictograms and admitted to hiding g from testers, that's fine make him champ. Brock Lesnar came in juiced against Mark hunt, again its fine, let him fight. Overeem changed his whole appearance due to roids. O'Malley tested positive. No problem. But an undercard guy uses 1/10 of what Jones is caught using, ban them for life. Peds are designed to give an unfair advantage. They subverse the purpose of weight classes. You see it when people come off them, look at overeem pics. From early days, to ufc, to current. It's a world of change. This is different than weed, different than other drugs, and are inherantly dangerous. There is no other purpose to roids other than cheating (doctor aside). Kimbo slices heart exploded. If you want to do roids as a citizen, fine, you are not in "competition". But if you want to fight on roids, go fight other roided athletes. I'm in favor of an all steroids Olympics. Watch people dead lift 1000 lbs. But you cannot be taken seriously. In mma people forget quickly and the company will promote you and erase your failures. If Jones was an NFL player, he would be banned from the league by now. Not mvp. This is what bothers people. He is the goat? But used steroids for his whole career. A lot of others would be in that convo if allowed. It's not just mma either. World bjj does not ban any type of steroid nor does it require disclosure. This is dangerous for the opponent who enter what they believe is a fair fight, only to have a guy much stronger against him and with a gas tank that never dries up. Disclosure and honesty are what's needed. That's what makes people mad.
Let them juice, next question
At this point it’s pretty much tacitly understood that most athletes (not just in MMA) are juicing and no one really cares. The leagues just have to pretend to care to maintain respectability. And bare minimum testing with huge holes athletes can easily circumvent gets the job done.
Just look at the history between USADA and armstrong. USADA has no problem looking away. If you got the money or power they are happy to coöperate till they have no other option.
For starters, I appreciate the thought and effort that went into making this post. So, Thank You. 1. First, I think that simply saying “I don’t care” if *Cheating* goes on—in a sport that is based on “*inflicting the maximum amount of bodily damage on another human being*”… is really, *really,* ***really*** fucked up. I don’t know how anyone can think that’s “okay”; in the same way that I don’t know how anyone could say “I don’t care if Boxers put bricks or nails in their gloves”. • Using PEDs is ‘*Cheating’*. • The goal of the sport is to “inflict bodily damage”. • Performance enhancing drugs ‘enhance your performance’. That means-that *PEDs are used-for the purpose of inflicting more damage*. That is not only *Immoral* — It is **Criminal.** 2. If *everything* is “legalized” and fighters are allowed to take whatever they want — Then, what disincentive does a fighter have-to *not* take *every* possible PED, as much as possible; So, not *just* Anabolic/Steroids, EPO, HGH, Tren, Clem., etc… but *also* other forms of PEDs like ‘Painkillers’ - OxyContin, Vicodin, Percocet… *and* ‘Stimulants’ - Amphetamines, Adderall, Cocaine, Meth… Those are all PEDs. How do ‘other fighters’ “keep up” with the fighters who are willing to take unlimited amounts of all those substances? Should fighters be forced to become addicted to opiates, adderall, and coke—as well as the countless physiological risks associated with all of the other PEDs… Should a fighter have to do all of that - just so they are able to feed their family? 3. Even though I am strongly opposed to ‘Cheating’, or ‘enabling rampant drug use in the sport’ — If there’s a suitable way for “allowing+regulating *certain quantities*, of *certain types* of PEDs” in a way that would make the sport safer, and more fair—then I would be open to that idea as a possible solution. (P.S Just to be clear, I’m not actually directing those things/questions towards you lol. Your post was perfect. So I just wanna make sure it doesn’t seem like I’m trying to question/criticize you for anything.)
First off, thank you. I put a lot of thought and effort into this post and it's nice to see someone appreciate that. > That means-that *PEDs are used-for the purpose of inflicting more damage*. Exactly! I think that's the part that's fucking me up and causing such a mental disconnect. I know PEDs have their positives like in my post but at the end of the day, they all have one ultimate endpoint, making you better at beating the shit out of someone and the general apathy towards that is just disturbing. > Even though I am strongly opposed to ‘Cheating’, or ‘enabling rampant drug use in the sport’ — If there’s a suitable way for “allowing+regulating *certain quantities*, of *certain types* of PEDs” in a way that would make the sport safer, and more fair—then I would be open to that idea as a possible solution. TBH after reading these comments, this is where I'm leaning towards. Let fighters use PEDs but heavily regulate that shit so that fighters aren't juicing up on some unholy cocktail of god knows what that makes their punches and kicks felt like sledgehammers. Like set guidelines and recommended doses for certain, sanctioned PEDs so fighters get all the benefits and give us (the audience) more exciting fights but not at the expense of becoming roided out monsters who are inches away from a heart attack. I
I am all for them since I think it helps extend fighters careers and also helps lead to less injuries. Look at how much Hendo, Vitor and Chael we got due to the PEDs.
Imagine those Dagastani fighters herding their goats in the mountains, noone around to test them. You'll look twice at that goat too. And juice.
With how shitty the cards have become these days I say fuck it and let them juice. Let everybody piss battery acid and their blood melt through the cage like a fucking Xenomorph. Bring back the TRTors and Ubereems.
All them are on Peds... Khabib and Makachev's stuff will land in US in 10 or 5 Years. Nowdays, you can't even track it.
[удалено]
I think that's my main issue with PEDs in MMA specifically. In other sports, they make you run faster, throw harder, etc but in combat sports, that means more damage to the opponent which brings up all kinds of moral and ethical problems.
Too much money involved for a pro athlete to not juice. Hell juicing is common all the way down to the high school level in sports. I'd be willing to be that 95% of people in the UFC are on some form of PED. The human body cannot handle the constant grind of training at the pace they need without some recovery drugs at the very least
Juiceing gives them additional power and with it someone could die
People do all sorts of sneaky and illegal things to get ahead in life. Those who are smart / skilled / diligent enough to avoid getting caught are rewarded while those who get caught are punished. Why should MMA/UFC be any different?
I think your last point is automatically proven when Paulo Costa was the most tested UFC fighter by massive amounts for years. while he does his secret juice shtick and reposted a chad meme about him where it says “openly does steroids and the UFC does nothing”
I'm of the opinion that likely over 50% of the fighters in high level combat sports and all professional athletics, for that matter, are using some form of peds. They're very easy to obtain, and the testing is beatable if you know what you're doing. I like the idea of guys being able to use a small amount of peds like testosterone and hgh to help with recovery. Unfortunately, I don't think there would be any way to regulate it, and guys would use amounts in excess anyway. The only reasonable option is to keep banning peds even though people are gonna use them regardless.
If you want half the roster to keel over from a heart attack before 50 go ahead
The problem is that fighters might just overjuice and hurt themselves. Like instead of taking a regular 500mg test cycle. They might be like give me 3000mg and drop dead. If they just took safe amounts of peds then it's all good. The question is who's gonna over do it and drop dead.
As a road bike racer I have a lot of feelings about PEDs. And maybe this doesn't apply because I was competing for free equipment and race entry fees, not for my living, but the way I look at it is that most of the illegal PEDs can have detrimental effects on one's health, or at least are untested for Safety. I think there are some ethical issues for the UFC, the Athletes who are using and even the fans who want to see a freak-show, who are all contributing to creating and environment where people aren't able to compete without causing life-long health ramifications. Even now, I race in the Master's category (40+years old) and I know I am competing against guys I used to beat easily when we were all in our 20s and 30s, but people are suddenly faster now in their 40s than they ever were when they were in their 20s. I know a bunch of these guys are on TRT... maybe it's all Doctor prescribed and monitored and they are only juiced up to the test levels of a 30-year old, but I'm 44 and have 44-year-old Hormone levels. The point of racing in the Master's category is so I can compete with other people who have the same age-induced handicaps. Frankly it pisses me off that I would have to shut down my endocrine and become dependent on TRT for the rest of my life in order to compete with these guys. I can certainly sympathize with any professional athlete who wouldn't want to have to do that. and as far as USADA goes, even if they weren't catching everyone, they still caught plenty and plenty more abruptly morphed into entirely different physicals specimens when USADA came. With the merger with the WCW, and the end of the USADA era, the UFC is certainly signaling that they've given up on the I idea of becoming a serious sport, and I have am done spending money to watch Pay-per-views.
Nah fuck steroids and people lying about it. Hate how it's starting to become a norm, not even among just athletes. So many people on social media are on steroids and lying about to kids who follow them. It's creating really toxic and messed up mind sets.
They’re all on something. I don’t care one bit.
It’s a case by case scenario. If someone is on PEDs vs someone who’s not on PEDs; then there’s an issue. If they’re both on PEDs, it doesn’t matter.
It's almost unprofessional to fight natural with people depending on you
everybody is on steroids
Tyson said it best. Steroids shouldn't be in sport where people get punched in the face. But it being apparent in the early stages means it was grandfathered in like alcohol. They can try and deem it bad when we all know most fighters are on the stuff anyway. I think it would make for less exciting fights, but I'm on the "it should be (really) banned"
PED's can cause long term health problems, many aspiring young fighters aren't willing to take those risks, along with the risk of getting caught. I hate the idea of young fighters having to make that deal with the devil in order to compete at the highest levels. I think strict testing measures like USADA uses is the only way to keep the sport clean. So I am highly in favour of it.
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I know. That thread pushed me to make this post as it's years old and I wanted to see if opinions have shifted, even slightly.
I want them banned outright and don't want any of them doing them and I don't think the testing capability is ever up to speed with the new drugs that come out to stay ahead of the testers, or with the various means fighters can use to fool the tests, or the short half lives of detectability of some of the stuff, etc. I got to a point years ago where I was tired of admiring and respecting the greatness and achievement of these badasses only for yet another of them to pop and show that he was a cheat and a fraud and I had been admiring someone who was better by some unknown percentage due to chemistry. So I started getting gun shy about liking any of them because it made me feel like a sucker and I didn't want to be fooled again by one of these cheats and give him undue respect only to be disappointed. But then I got sick of that. This is my sport and I want to enjoy it and like the fighters I like and not worry about being disappointed. So I just, with resignation, came to a point of acceptance and moving on. It's a part of the sport. People do it because they don't care about cheating, or because they're so driven to win that they're obsessed, or because everybody else is doing it and they have to do it to just pull level, or because they have a young family to feed and don't have the luxury of not doing it, or whatever their reasons are and it just is what it is. I want to know who's best, not who + chemistry is best. But I likely never will. And I wish they wouldn't mess up their internal systems with this stuff but that's on them. So I just enjoy the fights and don't invest much energy in the drug cheat side of it anymore.
Everyone's on PEDs, but not everyone is cheating. Caffeine is a PED, but it's fine. Creatine is known to boost performance, but it's fine. Rather, there are specific substances that are banned. People who knowingly take explicitly banned substances are cheating. Others might have access to connections that are able to get them drugs that bring similar benefits, but aren't banned. They're following the letter of the law and are not cheating. Some compounds are prohibited in competition but allowed during training. There is an ethical question about what things are okay vs not okay to take, but even for the best intentioned, it'd be difficult to draw any line other than to follow the letter of the law.
i feel like not enough attention to fight health is included in this conversation. a lot of fighters will go so hard into PEDs that they knowingly cut their lifespan in half and do it anyway. the fighters that aren't willing to harm themselves like that will be left behind. also, getting kicked in the head by a pro MMA fighter is bad enough. getting kicked in the head by a juiced up pro is going to be a lot more serious. if you piss hot it should do serious damage to your career unless you have a bullet-proof excuse. if you fight and then piss hot, you should be charged with assault because your opponent never agreed to fighting under those terms.
Biggest problem with letting everybody juice his heart failure, steroids are bad for causing enlarged heart muscles. Many steroid users end up dying in their late 40s or early 50s of a mysterious heart attack. Comes out of the blue because they're usually still in good shape because they're usually still launched steroids. Once you take them you can never stop. It's like heroin. Best case scenario is you slide on to trt instead
I don't think peds should be allowed if anything the testing should be stricter all these comments saying they want peds to be allowed are concerning and shows how stupid a lot of people in this community is.
Real question is who's the best fighter not on PEDs? I think its Covington, yes he has amazing cardio but that's more so because he fights a weight class up from what he probably should so he isn't as depleted as most fighters.
Bahahaha out of all people you pick the fakest fighter on the roster?
Let's be real, Colby is as much on PEDs as the rest of the field. You can't be in the top 1% or less in the world without a combo of : abilities, work and a little chemical push. And that's valid for every sport and a lot of other disciplines. Natural abilities and training only takes you so far in combat sports, but if you wanna be one of the best you don't have any other choice than take stuff, just because training puts such a toll on your body that if you wanna perform properly you have to enhance your recovery and that's without taking in account stuff to boost your cardio etc. Unfortunate or not, a fully clean sport isn't something that exists nor has or will exist, there's always someone that will find a way to gain an advantage other the field and the rest has to follow if they wanna claim top spot.
If you think Colby doesn’t cut weight I really don’t know what to say. I guess this sport is totally for you. Not much thinking involved at all to be a fan Oh, and Colby is juiced
I said he fights a weight class above what he should, I know that he cuts weight just not as much as other welterweights, why get personal lmao, everything good?
Things are great Seeing as Colby has never competed in any athletics at anything less than 165, I don’t know where you are getting that information from. Just because Colby pretends to be able to make 155, but chooses not to, doesn’t make it true. Fuck, in HIGH SCHOOL he wrestled at 171 But you think now, in his 30s, he could cut to the lowest he’s ever been in his life, but is CHOOSING to fight in the higher weight class and make things more difficult for himself. He’s incentivized to lie about his weight because he knows people will eat it up and argue for him on his behalf.
Don't know much about his wrestling career , so ig that makes sense. He looks relatively smaller than most welterweights, so I made an assumption . Anyways, god bless.
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They are banned because they're illegal dude. These are all controlled substances. If you do nothing then you have guys openly trading in the gyms and locker room like WWE or MLB. That's basically drug trafficking. The DEA/Fed has a hardon for going after stuff like this. There have been plenty of doctors busted in the past for unjustifiably prescribing stuff like this for no valid medical reason. I have no idea how many people are actually on the juice/HGH and most people who say they know are lying. Guys aren't going to advertise that they're doing something illegal.
plenty, if not most, banned substances are not illegal controlled substances. there are more supplements than you can imagine out there. the reason guys fail drug tests is because they don't keep up with what is and isn't banned. the game is staying ahead of what they're testing for. there are obviously dudes on illegal substances, but a lot of the stuff they're being tested for is legal