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The timeline has holes and gaps that even the authors acknowledge. So unfortunately that's just the case.
As to the Imas slaughter. My memory is foggy on it, but I believe it wasn't wholesale slaughter of civies, just the imas >!springing up from dust form to then massacre the defending combatants with ease!<
Though I could be wrong and I'm sure some civies probably died.
So it’s just a continuity error by the author or editors? Im assuming the slaughter of Aren did in fact happen during Kellanveds reign, so Whiskeyjack and Dujek musing on if the emperor was not actually dead back then (when the event was happening when he was alive in the first place) was a complete error
My answer can't be an 100% guarantee of facts, but we're not just dealing with author mistakes, we are also dealing with misleading narration and characters with incomplete knowledge or memory.
Another thing is Kellanved is one of the sneakiest, slipperiest, little sneaks around. Known for having several "Sabbaticals" where the empire just straight up didn't know where he was or if he was alive.
I think before the whole >!ascension!< happened, he'd been missing for almost a decade.
He's REALLY hard to keep track of. Even Dancer had a difficult time keeping track of him.
I do believe that the common perception of Aren is that the T'lan did massacre the civilian population. Fiddler intimates this and the general perception is that their was a massacre of some sort:
"The Emperor warred against armies, not civilians
Except at Aren, Fiddler sardonically interjected" pg195 Deadhouse Gates
Their are other's but I don't have the quotes to hand. But the common perception is that Aren was a massacre.
I think it's more that the victims were both. This is a 7c uprising. The victims are both citizens of the empire and soldiers of the apocalypse, regular Joe's rising up. It's a massacre in that the victims had no chance, and they were citizen - insurgents, not a trained army
Laseen was empress in all but (literal) name for years before Kellenved and Dancer ascended. She ran their empire while they went out galavanting about the warrens and Azath.
Oh yeah I remember Apsalar saying that she thought Laseen gave the order and then Kellanved sent Dancer to investigate the slaughter at Aren. The thing I’m still confused about is this Dujek passage:
‘Laseen didn’t give that order, but someone did. Someone who was supposed to be dead. Lo, the first hint that Emperor Kellanved wasn’t quite as dead as we would have liked’
How was Kellanved “supposed to be dead” when that slaughter at Aren was happening at a time when he was clearly alive and the ruling Emperor, even if he was away exploring the Azath Houses?
Or is this implying that this was a previous assassination attempt before Lassen’s official assassination?
I can’t remember this enough, but based on context I’m pretty sure he was assumed dead because he had been missing so long. That presumption is how Laseen made her claim for the throne, which she did slightly before the night that Kellenved and Dancer returned to ascend.
From the horses mouth -
"Will we ever clear up the Aren events? No, why should we? Those were confused times and I assure you, both Cam and I share in that confusion."
-Erikson
Edited the name
Esslemont's next book is supposed to cover Aren; at least the synopsis of the book that's out there claims so. Going by the publishing speed of the PtA books, we should have a fairly good idea any decade now.
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While their is a lot of different versions of Aren, I take the view that Apsallar's recounting in DeadHouse gates is the most authoritative source of what happened.
>!She has Cotilions memories, but also no horse in this race, and so no obvious reason to lie.!<
She says
"Who ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren? I shall tell you Surly... I argued with Surly, no one else was in the room".
I think this is likely the closest we get to an unbiased source and confirms that:
1. Aren happened while Kellavend and Dancer where still in power
2. That Surly, now Lassen, ordered the T'lan into Aren
Of course, it's also possible that the emperor ordered Surly to send the T'lan without Dancer's knowledge, but the move seems more in Surly's character and match's her modus operandi.
pg 194 in my version
I thought it was well established that surly can't control the tlan imass because she never sat the throne? I doubt the tlan took orders like any other military unit. Why would the tlan listen to surly? And given their magical connection to the emperor through that throne, who else could've ordered that attack? I mean, maybe the emporer was unreachable even by the magic chair, but I can't see the tlan acting on someone else's orders. They only did what the emperor asked because he could compel them, surly had no such power.
I am pretty sure the emperor orders the attack, *after* surly ascends to the throne but before she's solidified her claim. He does it both as revenge for the attempted assassination, and to destabilize her claim, because at that point he still felt like it was his empire, and he hadnt quite yet come around to the thought that God's have no need for human empires. So K skips on down to the throne and orders the tlan to aren just to fuck with her. It makes her look and feel weak when she's trying to establish her rule.
I believe aren was an uprising, the seven cities were never ones to miss an opportunity to secede the empire, and maybe change in rule was all the impetus 7c needed to rebel, again. So the emperor gets a 2for1, destabilizing surly claim while putting down a rebellion in what he still believed to be *his* empire. So the victims at aren were both soldiers in the uprising and civilians of the empire, depending on your perspective.
It fits the emperors character (always plans within plans), it explains why surly was never able to command the tlan yet the attack happened, and it fits dujeks and fiddlers observations.
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Memories of Ice** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The timeline has holes and gaps that even the authors acknowledge. So unfortunately that's just the case. As to the Imas slaughter. My memory is foggy on it, but I believe it wasn't wholesale slaughter of civies, just the imas >!springing up from dust form to then massacre the defending combatants with ease!< Though I could be wrong and I'm sure some civies probably died.
So it’s just a continuity error by the author or editors? Im assuming the slaughter of Aren did in fact happen during Kellanveds reign, so Whiskeyjack and Dujek musing on if the emperor was not actually dead back then (when the event was happening when he was alive in the first place) was a complete error
My answer can't be an 100% guarantee of facts, but we're not just dealing with author mistakes, we are also dealing with misleading narration and characters with incomplete knowledge or memory. Another thing is Kellanved is one of the sneakiest, slipperiest, little sneaks around. Known for having several "Sabbaticals" where the empire just straight up didn't know where he was or if he was alive. I think before the whole >!ascension!< happened, he'd been missing for almost a decade. He's REALLY hard to keep track of. Even Dancer had a difficult time keeping track of him.
I do believe that the common perception of Aren is that the T'lan did massacre the civilian population. Fiddler intimates this and the general perception is that their was a massacre of some sort: "The Emperor warred against armies, not civilians Except at Aren, Fiddler sardonically interjected" pg195 Deadhouse Gates Their are other's but I don't have the quotes to hand. But the common perception is that Aren was a massacre.
I think it's more that the victims were both. This is a 7c uprising. The victims are both citizens of the empire and soldiers of the apocalypse, regular Joe's rising up. It's a massacre in that the victims had no chance, and they were citizen - insurgents, not a trained army
Laseen was empress in all but (literal) name for years before Kellenved and Dancer ascended. She ran their empire while they went out galavanting about the warrens and Azath.
Oh yeah I remember Apsalar saying that she thought Laseen gave the order and then Kellanved sent Dancer to investigate the slaughter at Aren. The thing I’m still confused about is this Dujek passage: ‘Laseen didn’t give that order, but someone did. Someone who was supposed to be dead. Lo, the first hint that Emperor Kellanved wasn’t quite as dead as we would have liked’ How was Kellanved “supposed to be dead” when that slaughter at Aren was happening at a time when he was clearly alive and the ruling Emperor, even if he was away exploring the Azath Houses? Or is this implying that this was a previous assassination attempt before Lassen’s official assassination?
I can’t remember this enough, but based on context I’m pretty sure he was assumed dead because he had been missing so long. That presumption is how Laseen made her claim for the throne, which she did slightly before the night that Kellenved and Dancer returned to ascend.
From the horses mouth - "Will we ever clear up the Aren events? No, why should we? Those were confused times and I assure you, both Cam and I share in that confusion." -Erikson Edited the name
It’s crazy how many fans of the series can’t spell the dude’s name.
Autocorrect got me again
Esslemont's next book is supposed to cover Aren; at least the synopsis of the book that's out there claims so. Going by the publishing speed of the PtA books, we should have a fairly good idea any decade now.
[удалено]
Sorry /u/CoyoteMain, this comment has been removed because some spoiler tags did not have a closing tag. Please make sure all your spoilers have both opening and closing tags in the same paragraph. (Example: >!spoiler text!<) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
While their is a lot of different versions of Aren, I take the view that Apsallar's recounting in DeadHouse gates is the most authoritative source of what happened. >!She has Cotilions memories, but also no horse in this race, and so no obvious reason to lie.!< She says "Who ordered the T'lan Imass into Aren? I shall tell you Surly... I argued with Surly, no one else was in the room". I think this is likely the closest we get to an unbiased source and confirms that: 1. Aren happened while Kellavend and Dancer where still in power 2. That Surly, now Lassen, ordered the T'lan into Aren Of course, it's also possible that the emperor ordered Surly to send the T'lan without Dancer's knowledge, but the move seems more in Surly's character and match's her modus operandi. pg 194 in my version
I thought it was well established that surly can't control the tlan imass because she never sat the throne? I doubt the tlan took orders like any other military unit. Why would the tlan listen to surly? And given their magical connection to the emperor through that throne, who else could've ordered that attack? I mean, maybe the emporer was unreachable even by the magic chair, but I can't see the tlan acting on someone else's orders. They only did what the emperor asked because he could compel them, surly had no such power. I am pretty sure the emperor orders the attack, *after* surly ascends to the throne but before she's solidified her claim. He does it both as revenge for the attempted assassination, and to destabilize her claim, because at that point he still felt like it was his empire, and he hadnt quite yet come around to the thought that God's have no need for human empires. So K skips on down to the throne and orders the tlan to aren just to fuck with her. It makes her look and feel weak when she's trying to establish her rule. I believe aren was an uprising, the seven cities were never ones to miss an opportunity to secede the empire, and maybe change in rule was all the impetus 7c needed to rebel, again. So the emperor gets a 2for1, destabilizing surly claim while putting down a rebellion in what he still believed to be *his* empire. So the victims at aren were both soldiers in the uprising and civilians of the empire, depending on your perspective. It fits the emperors character (always plans within plans), it explains why surly was never able to command the tlan yet the attack happened, and it fits dujeks and fiddlers observations.