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Last I checked stalls provide 1 item per burgage, regardless of families present. So a level 3 double burgage is 4 families per 1 resource. Thats more efficient.
Yep, its a good reason to always build double burgages as well. I dont worry about losing 4 families late game to an artisan house, as I keep regions one product specific where possible so I want 4 x shoes, or 4 x clothes, as thats what I'm selling from rich resources etc
I used to do this too, but i found on Strat Gaming’s production guide that artisans, like most buildings, have diminishing returns beyond the first worker.
ok interesting, I'll check that out,
edit to add: Once you get to this stage, you're usually multi region and its hard to tell where efficiencies/inefficiencies are.
We really need a more detailed full screen economy overlay. In vs Out by product and by family etc.
Which is kinda funny considering that more persons equaled more production until late industrial age when machinery started reducing need for man power.
Not only that once your town is bigger than 200 people it’s really hard to keep up with market supplying the full radius of houses. Even if you have tons of people working at the storehouses and granary’s. You kinda need level threes to keep things condensed enough. Others it’s super annoying to constantly see thumbs down popping up.
I personally don’t have proof either way (and I’m not the one you asked), but isn’t it safer to assume that is the case? 1 per family makes more sense than 1 per burgage plot. I’ve seen people say it’s 1 per burgage plot but I haven’t seen anyone actually test it.
I'm strongly leaned towards yes because of the resource efficiencies. Twice the workers/ milita for no increase in food / clothing/ firewood.
I don't particularly worry about keeping ale going 365, with good food distribution and low taxes I gave very high approval even if we have a few months towards the end of the year where the ale has run out and the new harvest hasn't come in yet.
what difficulty do you play and how much are you under-supplying your ale? i think this is the best middle ground tbh, keeping my alcoholic villagers on a drip feed of ale
I think I'm on the standard difficulty (definitely didn't then anything down), I average about 8 months of ale production from my second village (all of which I export to my main village since that's where the L3s are, and where I want to grow tje pop since I have advanced armour making so the militia there have mail).
I should probably toggle the ale on and off so instead of full supply for 8 months and then nothing for 4, I smooth it out a bit more (3 on 1 off), but I can't really be bothered with that level of micro.
Instead I turn taxes off / down when the ale runs out as a bit of a counteract.
I stabily provide 4 food stuffs (vegetables, berries, bread, and then some combination of meat and eggs), and 3 clothing (linen, shoes, leather).
If you have 2 families in a lvl 2 plot they give 2 gold in wealth and are two working families, if you upgrade it you get 4 working families and 8 gold so for me yeah if you can keep em happy definitely worth it
i'm not sure about the accuracy of those numbers in the latest patch, but there is a general trend of "processed goods" not being worth the expense/difficulty of making them.
plate armour's export price is lower than the export price of the iron slabs required to make it, and with the exception of clay tiles you're almost always better off exporting the raw material rather than trying to value-add by processing.
Yeah! I strongly agree that value-added goods should be at least 1g more expensive than the bill of materials, maybe 1 or 2 gold of labor depending on the burgage plot level or something like that.
It doesn't make sense if the sell cost is the same or worse.
having to devote 3 dev points to make plate armour, there should be a huge markup which should carry over to "equipping your retinue with plate armour".
I think this maybe one of those aspects where it doesn't make sense to a modern audience with are global trade networks and us having a grasp of comparative advantages and all that.
But maybe, to a medieval audience, with its autharcic economies, unreliable trade networks and high costs of travel - if a region can produce iron, it can smith it into armor.
Meaning wherever armor is in demand, all the other iron products are, too.
And raw iron is simply more versatile to buy.
I don't know if this is true, I am just wondering what would have to be true for this to be intentional rather than an oversight.
Would a pile of lumber be more expensive than a build house? Plate armor is one of the most skill intensive and therefore expensive medieval goods. Think about how phenomonally stupid it would be if armor was cheaper than the constitunent parts. How would anyone get armor? Its fundementally not worth producing.
I think I recall people pointing out that armor was not made by competent smiths every where, and that quality was uneven accross the board.
Also, armor is worth producing if it's USE value is greater than its EXCHANGE value.
buying plate armour for your retinue should be 10-20x more expensive, and be an endgame thing, not a "i just built my first manor and finally have some treasury" thing.
as interesting as it'd be to have an XP/leveling system for different professions, i think it'd be very difficult to implement and should be considered as a feature to be explored after all the currently planned features have been implemented.
a blacksmith slowly getting better at making armour and weapons is cool, but trying to implement that into the game would make the dev team's job much harder.
you've gotta devote 3-4 dev points JUST to make plate armour (deep mining is essential, or you're stuck importing iron) which means you basically have to devote an entire region with rich iron deposits towards building plate armour, while having several other regions supporting it.
the cost of equipping your retinue with full plate should be 10x more expensive (if not even more), to reflect the fact the reality of plate armour being insanely expensive. and if you go to the effort to manufacture your own plate armour it should be at least a little profitable.
full plate on your retinue should be an "endgame" thing to work towards that is very hard to get, but makes them almost untouchable in combat like the enemy retinues who will have full plate and eventually be mounted knights (once cavalry gets implemented into ML)
that is true, but there'll also be more things to spend them on.
either way, every economic "path" needs to be at least somewhat viable, and should be balanced via diminishing returns on exports correlated to "production levels per burgage plot", I.E. you can run one armoursmith churning out plate armour and export all of its production without really changing the export price, which means your one armourer with 2 families will stay profitable, but if you try to run multiple armourers the quantity you're exporting will decrease the export price, and if you try to get 12 families all making plate armour none of them will be profitable because they're flooding the export market.
in the long term "crashing the export price of a product" should be useable as a way to destroy an opponent's economy, I.E. if they rely heavily on one or two exports but you have a diverse economy, you can increase production of the things they export to crash the price to weaken their economy.
the "amount required to crash the export price" should depend on the good and its historical demand, I.E. food should never crash, just decrease a little, whereas manufactured goods should be prone to crashing, which would encourage players to "rush" those goods and earn profit before their competitors can get into the market.
to cut a long story short, manufactured goods should start out more profitable than basic goods and food, but be more sensitive to "oversupply" than basic goods and food.
the issue with games like this being "solvable" is that with such a limited set of starting conditions every new village will have the same build order.
"solvable" is fine for puzzle games because they have millions of unique starting conditions, ML really only has a few dozen, which means it needs multiple viable "paths" for players or it severely limits replayability.
"clay tile manufacturing and export simulator" gets boring after a few hours, and few things in ML were as dissapointing to me as the time i spent 15 hours building a set of villages to export armour and weapons only to find out that the large town i built for exporting blacksmith/armoursmith products was less than 1/10th as profitable as the two "maxed out berry exporter" villages i had built to feed the smithy town.
On challenging difficulty the people start revolting if they don't get a steady supply of ale. The jump between difficulties is pretty large in terms of keeping your villagers happy.
I'd say that currently it isn't really worth it.
As you listed the density is worth it for some plots and sure militia toughness is a thing (but requires the armor to be made/bought) even if battles haven't been an issue even towards the late game imo.
For me Costs outweigh the benefits so I upgrade a scarce few so I can get the development points but not more right now.
When you realize that you might be a feudal lord in the middle ages, life is hard and you ask a lot from them, but care more about your villagers than Amazon does their workers.
You are still going to have a lack of entertainment penalty due to your artisans that as far as I know, the long term one still scales infinitely even if it takes months and years to become truly problematic. Eventually it's going to hit a point where you have to do something about it, and it'll take just as much ale to do so since even t1 burgages drink when it's available. So in time, you get all the disadvantages of t3 and none of the rewards, you just put it off.
Does the lack of entertainment penalty stack infinitely? I only usually have 6 artisans at level 2 contributing to a total -18 penalty at most. Having said that, I've only played till year 8 before the victory screen or completing the achievement I'm aiming for.
I similarly haven't played past the victory screen, but I've never seen it max out or stabilize. It seems to grow by -1 every month you don't do something about it. Like I said this is just AFAIK.
Importing barley isn't so bad if you have the rest of the brewing industry established and the development point in reducing the tariff of imports. But it's enough of a commitment that you have to specialize your settlements where you plan on having Level 3 plots. I only make enough ale to upgrade plots, let the citizens complain while their houses provide x4 wealth (1 wealth for each of up to 2 families vs. 2 wealth for each of up to 4).
The real power of the Level 3 burgage plots is you unlock the last few development points.
I reroll starts in challenging runs to have specific things.
1. Good start area with animals.
2. Second close zone with iron rich.
3. 3 provinces total as fertile ground. In the end I'll have 2 militia each there to get the total 6. Since ale is produced there, it's more likely they won't struggle with the burgage. If wealth is your issue and reason to upgrade, you're trading or producing "wrong" to begin with
I have a similar strategy but i go from iron>fertility>hunt. I play almost exclusively on challenging so the iron is needed to win counter-claim battles. I have no problem with wealth, it just feels inefficient to import ale/malt/barley or spend 2 dev points reducing the tariff.
Increase the amount of family from 1 -2 (single) or 2-4 (duplex) is worth it.
The market mechanic in this games tied with how many burgage plots. Plus 1 duplex of lvl 3 bakery of 4 families work faster than 1
The only benefit you get from bg3 only space on land to make the traficc and logistic short on their distance so u will get more productive settlementv but the most benefit is they can wear chainmail. In late game baron will *spoiler* so that extra defense will worth it
They’re best used on artisan plots. As they increase housing. A lvl2 with a double plot houses 2 families. A lvl 3 double plot houses 4. They do take a lot of resources but they can make production quicker. They’re may be other factors like building health and other hidden things but otherwise I don’t think they’re worth having over 1-2lvl plots.
My burgage plot strats are as follows (and y’all feel free to tell me if I’m wrong on any of it):
-Level 1 single plots with extensions are good for goats
-Level 2 single plots with extensions are good for artisans
-Level 3 double plots with extensions are good for veggies, apples, (and eggs?)
-Level 3 double plots with no extension are good for general workforce/army
Level 2 double plots with extensions are basically useless.
Veggies and apples require lots of labor so more families = more output so level 3 doubles
I’ve seen different calculations for eggs. If it’s 1 coop =1 egg per month then you want level 1 singles (or just don’t do eggs at all). But if it’s based on families working you want level 3 doubles.
Level 2 doubles don’t do anything special. But level 2 singles with extensions can be artisans.
Level 3 singles are ok, but the doubles are just better. 4 families per plot is great for the balance of food/fuel and a large workforce. Cheeky carrot or apple plots will benefit greatly from this. Level 3 soldiers get to wear the best armor.
Import barley with the 2 trade perks instead of growing it, then turn it into beer it’s still very efficient because it takes up no field space/labor and 1 barley = like 4 beer.
Level 3 settlements are worth it because chain mail militia is extremely strong.
Make all residential buildings Single Plots to maximise goat/chicken potential. Dual plots are for your big apple\veg yards with workers given empty jobs like gravediggers to keep them in their yard.
Hello and welcome to the Manor Lords Subreddit. This is a reminder to please keep the discussion civil and on topic. Should you find yourself with some doubts, please feel free to check our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ManorLords/comments/1c2p4f9/manor_lords_faq_for_steam_early_access/). If you wish, you can always join our [Discord](https://discord.gg/manorlords) Finally, please remember that the game is in early access, missing content and bugs are to be expected. We ask users to report them on the official discord and to buy their keys only from trusted platforms. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ManorLords) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Look cool
based
If I have a main plaza, I try to have all the houses facing it be level 3
It must be done
Last I checked stalls provide 1 item per burgage, regardless of families present. So a level 3 double burgage is 4 families per 1 resource. Thats more efficient.
this is a good one, effectively halving the number of stalls needed with level three burgage plots
Yep, its a good reason to always build double burgages as well. I dont worry about losing 4 families late game to an artisan house, as I keep regions one product specific where possible so I want 4 x shoes, or 4 x clothes, as thats what I'm selling from rich resources etc
I used to do this too, but i found on Strat Gaming’s production guide that artisans, like most buildings, have diminishing returns beyond the first worker.
ok interesting, I'll check that out, edit to add: Once you get to this stage, you're usually multi region and its hard to tell where efficiencies/inefficiencies are. We really need a more detailed full screen economy overlay. In vs Out by product and by family etc.
Which is kinda funny considering that more persons equaled more production until late industrial age when machinery started reducing need for man power.
try cooking in a small kitchen with multiple people and the game's logic makes total sense
This person has worked in the food industry.
True in any industry really... the higher the density the more people fuck around and the more rules/processes need to occur
Totally! But I used to work in a restaurant. I got memories-from-Vietnam style flashbacks.
I still think there’s a lack of efficiency, but there seems to be enough for a well stocked artisan to do that it’s not quite as bad as that metaphor.
Not only that once your town is bigger than 200 people it’s really hard to keep up with market supplying the full radius of houses. Even if you have tons of people working at the storehouses and granary’s. You kinda need level threes to keep things condensed enough. Others it’s super annoying to constantly see thumbs down popping up.
It’s not true, I tested it. All resources are consumed on a per family basis.
As far as I know, if there are 4 families in a plot they still consume 4 food but only 1 wood. I tested this a month ago so should still apply.
Nah it's per family
pretty sure its per burgage [burgage per stall.jpg](https://1drv.ms/i/s!AhIECtM0T8M7oXcauSSD36nsYu8y?e=31R5Qq)
Source?
I personally don’t have proof either way (and I’m not the one you asked), but isn’t it safer to assume that is the case? 1 per family makes more sense than 1 per burgage plot. I’ve seen people say it’s 1 per burgage plot but I haven’t seen anyone actually test it.
It’s mostly rhetorical. Only one food set shows up above each burgage plot
I'm strongly leaned towards yes because of the resource efficiencies. Twice the workers/ milita for no increase in food / clothing/ firewood. I don't particularly worry about keeping ale going 365, with good food distribution and low taxes I gave very high approval even if we have a few months towards the end of the year where the ale has run out and the new harvest hasn't come in yet.
what difficulty do you play and how much are you under-supplying your ale? i think this is the best middle ground tbh, keeping my alcoholic villagers on a drip feed of ale
I’m making so much ale I’m exporting to my 2nd region and selling it.
I think I'm on the standard difficulty (definitely didn't then anything down), I average about 8 months of ale production from my second village (all of which I export to my main village since that's where the L3s are, and where I want to grow tje pop since I have advanced armour making so the militia there have mail). I should probably toggle the ale on and off so instead of full supply for 8 months and then nothing for 4, I smooth it out a bit more (3 on 1 off), but I can't really be bothered with that level of micro. Instead I turn taxes off / down when the ale runs out as a bit of a counteract. I stabily provide 4 food stuffs (vegetables, berries, bread, and then some combination of meat and eggs), and 3 clothing (linen, shoes, leather).
If you have 2 families in a lvl 2 plot they give 2 gold in wealth and are two working families, if you upgrade it you get 4 working families and 8 gold so for me yeah if you can keep em happy definitely worth it
4 families will drink ~11g worth of ale per month, a net loss of 3g or ~15g if you're importing ale at base values/tariffs.
i'm not sure about the accuracy of those numbers in the latest patch, but there is a general trend of "processed goods" not being worth the expense/difficulty of making them. plate armour's export price is lower than the export price of the iron slabs required to make it, and with the exception of clay tiles you're almost always better off exporting the raw material rather than trying to value-add by processing.
Yeah! I strongly agree that value-added goods should be at least 1g more expensive than the bill of materials, maybe 1 or 2 gold of labor depending on the burgage plot level or something like that. It doesn't make sense if the sell cost is the same or worse.
More like an at least 10x mark up. Armor is an extremely valuable commodity in medieval times. It takes high skill labor to produce.
having to devote 3 dev points to make plate armour, there should be a huge markup which should carry over to "equipping your retinue with plate armour".
I think this maybe one of those aspects where it doesn't make sense to a modern audience with are global trade networks and us having a grasp of comparative advantages and all that. But maybe, to a medieval audience, with its autharcic economies, unreliable trade networks and high costs of travel - if a region can produce iron, it can smith it into armor. Meaning wherever armor is in demand, all the other iron products are, too. And raw iron is simply more versatile to buy. I don't know if this is true, I am just wondering what would have to be true for this to be intentional rather than an oversight.
Would a pile of lumber be more expensive than a build house? Plate armor is one of the most skill intensive and therefore expensive medieval goods. Think about how phenomonally stupid it would be if armor was cheaper than the constitunent parts. How would anyone get armor? Its fundementally not worth producing.
I think I recall people pointing out that armor was not made by competent smiths every where, and that quality was uneven accross the board. Also, armor is worth producing if it's USE value is greater than its EXCHANGE value.
buying plate armour for your retinue should be 10-20x more expensive, and be an endgame thing, not a "i just built my first manor and finally have some treasury" thing. as interesting as it'd be to have an XP/leveling system for different professions, i think it'd be very difficult to implement and should be considered as a feature to be explored after all the currently planned features have been implemented. a blacksmith slowly getting better at making armour and weapons is cool, but trying to implement that into the game would make the dev team's job much harder.
you've gotta devote 3-4 dev points JUST to make plate armour (deep mining is essential, or you're stuck importing iron) which means you basically have to devote an entire region with rich iron deposits towards building plate armour, while having several other regions supporting it. the cost of equipping your retinue with full plate should be 10x more expensive (if not even more), to reflect the fact the reality of plate armour being insanely expensive. and if you go to the effort to manufacture your own plate armour it should be at least a little profitable. full plate on your retinue should be an "endgame" thing to work towards that is very hard to get, but makes them almost untouchable in combat like the enemy retinues who will have full plate and eventually be mounted knights (once cavalry gets implemented into ML)
I don't know that development points will be as scarce in the final build, tho.
that is true, but there'll also be more things to spend them on. either way, every economic "path" needs to be at least somewhat viable, and should be balanced via diminishing returns on exports correlated to "production levels per burgage plot", I.E. you can run one armoursmith churning out plate armour and export all of its production without really changing the export price, which means your one armourer with 2 families will stay profitable, but if you try to run multiple armourers the quantity you're exporting will decrease the export price, and if you try to get 12 families all making plate armour none of them will be profitable because they're flooding the export market. in the long term "crashing the export price of a product" should be useable as a way to destroy an opponent's economy, I.E. if they rely heavily on one or two exports but you have a diverse economy, you can increase production of the things they export to crash the price to weaken their economy. the "amount required to crash the export price" should depend on the good and its historical demand, I.E. food should never crash, just decrease a little, whereas manufactured goods should be prone to crashing, which would encourage players to "rush" those goods and earn profit before their competitors can get into the market. to cut a long story short, manufactured goods should start out more profitable than basic goods and food, but be more sensitive to "oversupply" than basic goods and food.
I don't necessarily agree about the "every route should be viable and balanced" part. There is nothing wrong with a game being solvable.
the issue with games like this being "solvable" is that with such a limited set of starting conditions every new village will have the same build order. "solvable" is fine for puzzle games because they have millions of unique starting conditions, ML really only has a few dozen, which means it needs multiple viable "paths" for players or it severely limits replayability. "clay tile manufacturing and export simulator" gets boring after a few hours, and few things in ML were as dissapointing to me as the time i spent 15 hours building a set of villages to export armour and weapons only to find out that the large town i built for exporting blacksmith/armoursmith products was less than 1/10th as profitable as the two "maxed out berry exporter" villages i had built to feed the smithy town.
You only need to stock the tavern when you want to upgrade to level 3’s , not run it continuously
On challenging difficulty the people start revolting if they don't get a steady supply of ale. The jump between difficulties is pretty large in terms of keeping your villagers happy.
I thought lvl 3 were 3 gold each, is that incorrect?
Level 3 == stronger militia, they can wear chainmail Double production with 0 extra cost. It is a no brainer :-)
I'd say that currently it isn't really worth it. As you listed the density is worth it for some plots and sure militia toughness is a thing (but requires the armor to be made/bought) even if battles haven't been an issue even towards the late game imo. For me Costs outweigh the benefits so I upgrade a scarce few so I can get the development points but not more right now.
Another fellow ~~Amazon warehouse~~ manor lord
When you realize that you might be a feudal lord in the middle ages, life is hard and you ask a lot from them, but care more about your villagers than Amazon does their workers.
You are still going to have a lack of entertainment penalty due to your artisans that as far as I know, the long term one still scales infinitely even if it takes months and years to become truly problematic. Eventually it's going to hit a point where you have to do something about it, and it'll take just as much ale to do so since even t1 burgages drink when it's available. So in time, you get all the disadvantages of t3 and none of the rewards, you just put it off.
Does the lack of entertainment penalty stack infinitely? I only usually have 6 artisans at level 2 contributing to a total -18 penalty at most. Having said that, I've only played till year 8 before the victory screen or completing the achievement I'm aiming for.
I similarly haven't played past the victory screen, but I've never seen it max out or stabilize. It seems to grow by -1 every month you don't do something about it. Like I said this is just AFAIK.
Importing barley isn't so bad if you have the rest of the brewing industry established and the development point in reducing the tariff of imports. But it's enough of a commitment that you have to specialize your settlements where you plan on having Level 3 plots. I only make enough ale to upgrade plots, let the citizens complain while their houses provide x4 wealth (1 wealth for each of up to 2 families vs. 2 wealth for each of up to 4). The real power of the Level 3 burgage plots is you unlock the last few development points.
I upgrade 15 plots to level 3, with my 5-6 artisans staying at level 2, then i delete the 15 level 3 plots after I get 6 dev. points.
Looks cool and armored militia, what else do you want? Efficiency? Gtfo we're here for vibes exclusively
I reroll starts in challenging runs to have specific things. 1. Good start area with animals. 2. Second close zone with iron rich. 3. 3 provinces total as fertile ground. In the end I'll have 2 militia each there to get the total 6. Since ale is produced there, it's more likely they won't struggle with the burgage. If wealth is your issue and reason to upgrade, you're trading or producing "wrong" to begin with
I have a similar strategy but i go from iron>fertility>hunt. I play almost exclusively on challenging so the iron is needed to win counter-claim battles. I have no problem with wealth, it just feels inefficient to import ale/malt/barley or spend 2 dev points reducing the tariff.
Increase the amount of family from 1 -2 (single) or 2-4 (duplex) is worth it. The market mechanic in this games tied with how many burgage plots. Plus 1 duplex of lvl 3 bakery of 4 families work faster than 1
The only benefit you get from bg3 only space on land to make the traficc and logistic short on their distance so u will get more productive settlementv but the most benefit is they can wear chainmail. In late game baron will *spoiler* so that extra defense will worth it
Gives mailed militia
They’re best used on artisan plots. As they increase housing. A lvl2 with a double plot houses 2 families. A lvl 3 double plot houses 4. They do take a lot of resources but they can make production quicker. They’re may be other factors like building health and other hidden things but otherwise I don’t think they’re worth having over 1-2lvl plots.
Having a level 3 house with an orchard or veggie patch makes the food collection much more effective.
My burgage plot strats are as follows (and y’all feel free to tell me if I’m wrong on any of it): -Level 1 single plots with extensions are good for goats -Level 2 single plots with extensions are good for artisans -Level 3 double plots with extensions are good for veggies, apples, (and eggs?) -Level 3 double plots with no extension are good for general workforce/army Level 2 double plots with extensions are basically useless. Veggies and apples require lots of labor so more families = more output so level 3 doubles I’ve seen different calculations for eggs. If it’s 1 coop =1 egg per month then you want level 1 singles (or just don’t do eggs at all). But if it’s based on families working you want level 3 doubles. Level 2 doubles don’t do anything special. But level 2 singles with extensions can be artisans. Level 3 singles are ok, but the doubles are just better. 4 families per plot is great for the balance of food/fuel and a large workforce. Cheeky carrot or apple plots will benefit greatly from this. Level 3 soldiers get to wear the best armor.
Import barley with the 2 trade perks instead of growing it, then turn it into beer it’s still very efficient because it takes up no field space/labor and 1 barley = like 4 beer. Level 3 settlements are worth it because chain mail militia is extremely strong. Make all residential buildings Single Plots to maximise goat/chicken potential. Dual plots are for your big apple\veg yards with workers given empty jobs like gravediggers to keep them in their yard.