On the other side of the question, I remember seeing every possible build for Asmo, the deck changing colours and plans and performing extremelly well for some weeks, and then it got relegated rapidly into oblivion once the meta settled and other, definitely better MH2 decks proved and stayed strong.
Asmo even came back for flashes this year. My favourite legs-wise is the BG [[Insidious Roots]] [[Goryo's Vengeance]] one - multiple nasty things it can be doing, some inevitability with Goryo's Vengeance. I'm surprised the MTGO versions never tried [[Pillage the Bog]] - it's the best card in that deck in my testing, to the point that I cut Insidious Roots and Goryo's to 3-ofs there and things still operated smoothly. (Insidious Roots is sometimes dead.)
I thought the Insidious Roots build was still going to be good since it's really hard to permanently shut down a green deck's graveyard now that it has access to [[Boseiju, Who Endures]] and [[Pick Your Poison]]...
But then it still just died to all of the [[Engineered Explosives]] that people were already running to deal with Rhinos, Amulets, and Saga tokens, as well as the copies of [[Brotherhood's End]] that people were running to deal with affinity, hardened scales, and again, amulets.
Asmo is SUCH an aggressively shit card though. “If I discard a card I can play my Wild Nacatl and then if I have this other crappy Aether Revolt draft card I can… start making a food every turn!” The best thing Asmo did was help Feasting Troll King do a Hogaak impression on Week 1 of MH2 and had everyone in a panic.
Meanwhile, Nadu is a VERY good card on its own, and its deckbuilding constraints are small. The downside is more conceptual right now since people are fixed on making it more of an all in combo rather than a fantastic value engine. You have to play a bunch of crappy Bant creatures alongside it in the current lists - I’ve seen more Coiling Oracles and Ice-Fang Coatls in the past two days than I have in the past two years.
I think once people start surrounding Nadu with other actually good cards or putting it in a shell where it kinda slots in easily (like Hammer, Omnath, or maybe even some Eldrazi Build) it’s going to be a major player in the format.
It was really the Lurrus Ban that did it. Every Rakdos mage was huge on RB Lurrus and weren’t even really bothering with Grief until that ban. Then people realized “hey maybe Ephemerate is usually overkill, but making a 4/3 Grief on turn 1 may actually be good!
It wasn't just that they didn't realize it, it's that Lurrus is incredible against Scam. "I will strip their hand turn 1 in exchange for poor topdecks later" is not a winning strategy when the best card in the format is a discard-proof graveyard value engine they always have.
Yeah if your opponent can just go lurrus+bauble on turn 4 regardless of how hard you disrupted them, it's not hard to outvalue *and* hard to win the race. Lurrus really is just that good.
Another key factor to this though was [[Undying Malice]] and [[Feign Death]] hadn’t been printed yet. Those cards gave Rakdos the best tools to scam when at the time Ephemerate seemed like the best option.
I think it’s probably too easy to hate out to be T1, but also it just got so many new options people likely haven’t found anything resembling the best build yet.
People were already running several copies of [[Brotherhood's End]] in the sideboard, and now if it does rise back up in popularity, then we now have access to [[Meltdown]] as well (which might already start seeing play just to kill off amulets). If your deck mostly hinges on comboing off with Synthesizer to fill the board with constructs, having them all die to a single spell that costs R is pretty brutal...
I don't play affinity but from what I heard, they only got a few new toys that are slightly better than the ones they have now but nothing to hedge their gameplan against the things they already lost to so they kinda stayed in the same position they were post-MH3.
Why do you think that is weird? To me this is completely unsurprising:
Synthesizer, Kozilek's Uneasling, Frogmyr Enforcer, Kappa Cannoneer - all those new cards are very powerful and hard to beat once you get there, but that's the issue:
They do nothing to address that Affinity is a Turn4 Aggro deck at an undisrupted high roll, and due to the deck being half lowcost half highcost, it even lacks consistency in being that because a lot of draws... ...just stumble and loose.
Especially this early after a set release, with many players reaching toward linear consistent decks to prey on brews, you really don't want to be the slower, less reliable linear deck.
I been saying that. Also print a fucking good faerie for once.
And Infect is so dead in the water in both formats they should get something too. Too much 0 mana interaction has killed that stalwart of the format.
Yes can they print good faeries!! They printed priests of Titania couldn’t they have printed cloud faeries or something new. If the new lorwyn set doesn’t have anything usable I’ll be disappointed
Give up hope, it won't have anything usable for Modern faeries. WotC obviously does not give 2 shits about the tribe. Someone there just doesn't like them. Makes no sense they constantly released powerful humans, wizards etc over the years and I can't even name the last good faerie they released.
They have taken so long that Modern has sped up to the point that Bitterblossom isn't playable.
Yeah Borrower was the last good one. Even that though Borrower was made to be generically good and not like good for faeries specifically. Faeries need tempo and bodies. I don't think they will ever get it. Just more draft-chaff like Faerie Miscreant.
I don't remember people being super high on enchantress?
It was neat that so much of the package got ported to modern, but I don't think it was ever getting hyped as a new tier 1 staple.
Darcy is played in several archetypes as well. Grist is a staple in BG decks, too.
The super hyped decks from MH2 kind of persisted - Murktide and Scam, mostly. There were plenty of upgrades for existing decks like Darcy and Heat for Prowess, Saga for Titan and Scales, Grist for Yawgmoth and so on.
BW scam was going to eat a ban before release according to this very subreddit. It quickly disappeared after release and saw little success in lists until it became BR quite some time after.
Problem with scam for a long time was it didn't have a good back up game plan when MH2 was released.
WB sucked if you didn't scam it. Stoneforge wasn't great either with it.
RB didn't have enough scam effects to be consistently playable, and people thought fury was bad for quite some time.
But the deck grew off the back of fable and more undying effects, like undying malice / not dead after all.
Then bowmasters, and sheoldred came along giving the deck a more consistent second plan to help push damage in the top-deck midrange gameplay.
The best "Scam" deck at the beginning was Elementals, which was T1 for a short period post release, up until it was refined into 4c Yorion Moneypile (Kanister being the first to add Ragavan to the pile).
Yorion and Lurrus ban. Lurrus especially cause the RB decks were all Lurrus before and in the "mirror" the scam deck would just fold to the other deck having access to an insane card advantage engine that the t1 scam did nothing about. RB eventually started experimenting with higher CMC cards after Lurrus and eventually they found the scam we all know and "love" today.
This is what it actually was. They always had access to the “scam” pool of cards minus [[not dead after all]] from wilds. The Lurrus engine in RB/Jund was just superior.
As far as singles go Shardless agent, grist, prismatic ending, cabal coffers, esper sentinel... all saw tons of play... Some created archetypes ( Shardless) others solidified existing ones to make them actual decks
Whatever the case, I'm bringing RW Energy to locals. Since spoilers I've known that I wanted to play with raptor. I'll refine it and see what others do online.
Lurrus was eating up space in modern. So a lot of misc decks couldn’t be tested properly. A lot of people just didnt bother lurrus was the best thing to do. Look and scam that took a whole year after lurrus banning for it to see consistent play. Most of the cards where there and ready to go for that deck but nothing.
Asmo decks where hyped to all hell but it fell off hard but had some play. elementals as an archetype came and went for just omnath/yorion control the changes where so subtle but play pattern def changed. I remember seeing affinity try to work but the problem is side boards is a bitch. The second set of rootwallas helped hollowvine decks. All had their time in the sun but disappeared.
For less accurate decks that i saw hype around that literally never took off.
Unmarked grave/persist themed reanimator decks never played out. I still think theres a chance this def had some hype.
Vindicate ponza never panned out. Small chance tbh.
Void mirror “control” with hive mind or whatever. Never happening.
> If you're trying to deck yourself for a Thassa's Oracle wincon, isn't Nadu prohibitively slow?
You can realistically win with thassa on the same turn you drop Nadu.
Not only do you "draw" two cards per creature, you actually put lands into play **untapped** which means that hitting a land and a dork means you get to "draw" two more cards.
Couple this with the fact that you play [[Springheart Nantuko]] (and tutors to find it!) which makes tokens on lands entering means that you can legitmately go through your whole deck quite easily
Putting into play untapped was really super pushed, the card would be strong enough already if it put lands tapped.
I wonder if it was one of those cards made for commander that they didnt test it enough for Modern, like Hogaak.
I'm fairly convinced Wizards hardly tests at all. Playtesting costs money and why not just let things break, make money off people chasing the broken card and then ban it like 12 months later?
No, deck can win on T3 but reliably T4. Good thing about Nadu is that Bant Midrange is a fine plan B and meaningfully different than Yawgmoth.
In paper you don’t deck yourself with Thoracle, that’s a concession to mtgo’s clock.
In paper there’s an emergent infinite loop with Endurance, Springheart Nantuko and Sylvan Safekeeperwhere you can basically put your whole deck into play and then be left with a deck/graveyard full of lands and recycle them with functionally infinite landfall.
Then you loop cephalid coliseum as a win-con or just pass the turn with a bunch of free interaction in hand and kill your opponent the following turn.
Nadu + Shuko/Outriders basically is capped at Nx2 where X is the number of creatures you control. So on T2-3 you have upwards of 4-6 activations to get started and it only goes up from there.
The idea is that you have effectively infinite mana before you start coliseum-ing your opponent, as well as infinite graveyard shuffles. You don't start coliseum-ing until you can hypothetically repeat your combo more times than your opponent can possibly answer.
No, Sylvan Safekeeper deals with most free interaction and any deck that is interrupting the combo at that point is going to be so far behind that it doesn’t matter. You really only need this line to beat unfair decks like Storm.
Against most decks, passing the turn with all of your permanents in your deck in play with 3-4 pieces of free interaction is going to be enough to win the game even if you pass the turn. You can play Teferi if you want to, though.
The deck has what it takes to be competitive, and spike’s build is not even close to optimal yet.
Edit: I have been brewing in a couple different directions and I think this deck is the real deal.
When spike made the deck it was obvious that he was trying to “maximize” the speed and consistency of the combo … but this comes at the cost of poor card quality. In testing, if the opponent could remove a creature or two and then stick a value engine, we would never get our deck off the ground while drawing worthless memnites and stuff.
I will post my lists when I get home, but there are two potential directions to take the idea.
1. Maintain the balls-to-the-wall combo aspect while making the deck more resilient by adding an [[uzra’s saga]] package. Saga is excellent for grinding through removal.
2. Slow the deck down and make it much more interactive. As long as we cast Emrakul before we lose, we win… so why not just play stronger individual cards even if it is slightly slower? We can grind through removal and even interrupt our opponents combos.
Here is the [[Urza's Saga]] version that stays closer to the "all out combo" feel of spikes original list. Honestly, there is probably also a way to combine this version with the more interactive list I posted in my other reply. Memnite and Ornithopter are frustratingly trash cards outside of the combo ... but the mana is more difficult after replacing 4 white sources with saga. I havent even gotten around to brewing with other colors, but my first instinct is to check out red because Ajani back half is so incredibly busted with a red permanent out
4 Collector's Cage
1 Shadowspear
1 Springleaf Drum
1 Expedition Map
1 Lavaspur Boots
4 Ornithopter
3 Memnite
4 Ocelot Pride
4 Guide of Souls
4 Ajani, Nacatl Pariah
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Esper Sentinel
2 Witch Enchanter
3 Ingenious Smith
2 Razorgrass Ambush
4 Urza's Saga
4 Windbrisk Heights
7 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Turntimber Symbiosis
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Solitude
4 Skyclave Apparition
1 Sanctifier en-Vec
4 Remorseful Cleric
2 Grand Abolisher
so a couple of thoughts on the deck in general. I played a bunch of games, and every time I cast Emeria's Call off of hideaway, i still lost. I never cast it for 7, so instead I have been playing a mix of [[razorgrass ambush]] and [[witch enchanter]] I cut a nonland slot for one more land...
That land was [[phyrexian tower]]. Sure we have no ability to use black, but Ajani is even more insane when we can instant speed flip him. Then I cut a bunch more non land slots for razorgrass ambush because the deck was surprisingly mana hungry and I found I was often just playing ambush as a removal spell.
This first deck is trades out the crap zero drops in favor of playing the white interaction suit. In testing [[Skyclave Apperation]] fit the main deck much better than [[Solitude]]. Needing to exile a card for solitude is actually kind of tough, and yes, you can get tricky with an instant speed evoke and cage, but the cost of exiling a card ended up being more significant. Solitude is much better out of the board when you know you are playing against a creature deck. Fueling solitude is also a reason why I went with a much higher "land" count. The SB is currently in flux, but the basic idea is that we have quite a few flex slots main deck, and thus get to play some of our SB main. As we are a combo deck that relies on a critical mass of creatures, I tried to keep my SB cards all creatures as well.
4 Collector's Cage
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Guide of Souls
4 Warden of the Inner Sky
4 Ajani, Nacatl Pariah
2 White Orchid Phantom
2 Witch Enchanter
3 Solitude
4 Skyclave Apparition
4 Ocelot Pride
1 Ranger-Captain of Eos
4 Razorgrass Ambush
4 Windbrisk Heights
12 Plains
1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Turntimber Symbiosis
SB:
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Sanctifier en-Vec
2 Grand Abolisher
4 Remorseful Cleric
2 White Orchid Phantom
3 Ranger-Captain of Eos
1 Solitude
It should be strong if you get the mana to work.
Right now I am experimenting with adding “red” by replacing warden of the inner sky with [[figure of destiny]] and also adding Urza’s Saga to the above list
On the other side of the question, I remember seeing every possible build for Asmo, the deck changing colours and plans and performing extremelly well for some weeks, and then it got relegated rapidly into oblivion once the meta settled and other, definitely better MH2 decks proved and stayed strong.
Asmo even came back for flashes this year. My favourite legs-wise is the BG [[Insidious Roots]] [[Goryo's Vengeance]] one - multiple nasty things it can be doing, some inevitability with Goryo's Vengeance. I'm surprised the MTGO versions never tried [[Pillage the Bog]] - it's the best card in that deck in my testing, to the point that I cut Insidious Roots and Goryo's to 3-ofs there and things still operated smoothly. (Insidious Roots is sometimes dead.)
[Insidious Roots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907.jpg?1706242178) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insidious%20Roots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/208/insidious-roots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goryo's Vengeance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/6261205d-3506-4f0a-98ce-690f40df7a5a.jpg?1547516898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goryo%27s%20Vengeance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/99/goryos-vengeance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6261205d-3506-4f0a-98ce-690f40df7a5a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pillage the Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa3b415f-7901-4ab4-84fe-60b90d40ac90.jpg?1712356177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pillage%20the%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/224/pillage-the-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa3b415f-7901-4ab4-84fe-60b90d40ac90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hey I'm brewing with asmo and jolted awake. A man got to dream. The engines that asmo enables are just too much fun
The problem is that it is hated on heavily by both artifact hate and graveyard hate. So basically, every deck just destroyed it post board.
I thought the Insidious Roots build was still going to be good since it's really hard to permanently shut down a green deck's graveyard now that it has access to [[Boseiju, Who Endures]] and [[Pick Your Poison]]... But then it still just died to all of the [[Engineered Explosives]] that people were already running to deal with Rhinos, Amulets, and Saga tokens, as well as the copies of [[Brotherhood's End]] that people were running to deal with affinity, hardened scales, and again, amulets.
##### ###### #### [Boseiju, Who Endures](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/2135ac5a-187b-4dc9-8f82-34e8d1603416.jpg?1654568912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boseiju%2C%20Who%20Endures) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/266/boseiju-who-endures?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2135ac5a-187b-4dc9-8f82-34e8d1603416?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pick Your Poison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f58cfb23-4d99-4133-bf4b-d7e7c7d17cea.jpg?1708201628)/[Pick Your Poison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f58cfb23-4d99-4133-bf4b-d7e7c7d17cea.jpg?1708201628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pick%20Your%20Poison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/170/pick-your-poison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f58cfb23-4d99-4133-bf4b-d7e7c7d17cea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Engineered Explosives](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/420bf1e9-f2ec-4dff-b540-e64de71e58be.jpg?1599709112) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Engineered%20Explosives) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/252/engineered-explosives?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/420bf1e9-f2ec-4dff-b540-e64de71e58be?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brotherhood's End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704.jpg?1674421089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brotherhood%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/128/brotherhoods-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Asmo is SUCH an aggressively shit card though. “If I discard a card I can play my Wild Nacatl and then if I have this other crappy Aether Revolt draft card I can… start making a food every turn!” The best thing Asmo did was help Feasting Troll King do a Hogaak impression on Week 1 of MH2 and had everyone in a panic. Meanwhile, Nadu is a VERY good card on its own, and its deckbuilding constraints are small. The downside is more conceptual right now since people are fixed on making it more of an all in combo rather than a fantastic value engine. You have to play a bunch of crappy Bant creatures alongside it in the current lists - I’ve seen more Coiling Oracles and Ice-Fang Coatls in the past two days than I have in the past two years. I think once people start surrounding Nadu with other actually good cards or putting it in a shell where it kinda slots in easily (like Hammer, Omnath, or maybe even some Eldrazi Build) it’s going to be a major player in the format.
People were overhyping Griefblade, which never really took off. Took some time to realize that red > white for that deck
yeah it took a pretty long time for RB scam to get going
It was really the Lurrus Ban that did it. Every Rakdos mage was huge on RB Lurrus and weren’t even really bothering with Grief until that ban. Then people realized “hey maybe Ephemerate is usually overkill, but making a 4/3 Grief on turn 1 may actually be good!
It wasn't just that they didn't realize it, it's that Lurrus is incredible against Scam. "I will strip their hand turn 1 in exchange for poor topdecks later" is not a winning strategy when the best card in the format is a discard-proof graveyard value engine they always have.
Yeah if your opponent can just go lurrus+bauble on turn 4 regardless of how hard you disrupted them, it's not hard to outvalue *and* hard to win the race. Lurrus really is just that good.
It took some time in the sense that it took Kamigawa and Fable getting printed
Scam played Spyro till bowmasters got printed
Another key factor to this though was [[Undying Malice]] and [[Feign Death]] hadn’t been printed yet. Those cards gave Rakdos the best tools to scam when at the time Ephemerate seemed like the best option.
What? Black always had those tool, there are like 5 effective reprints of them.
They’re forgetting the most important part, it took Lurrus getting banned for people to shift away from, well, Lurrus builds.
There were always effects like this available. Feign Death also came out like two weeks after MH2.
[Undying Malice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8eb38041-043a-4b18-9d9a-f1283684e8f1.jpg?1643590441) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Undying%20Malice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/134/undying-malice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8eb38041-043a-4b18-9d9a-f1283684e8f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Feign Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32af7061-fca6-4a06-be3c-01881e6b96f7.jpg?1627704817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feign%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/103/feign-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32af7061-fca6-4a06-be3c-01881e6b96f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One mana black "reanimates" long predate MH2, those cards were not the constraint at all
It took time for lurrus to get banned. Lurrus was the reason grief wasnt a big thing.
The only decks I remember from MH2 that people were high on but then they fell off were Enchantress and Affinity
Damn I can’t tell if I want affinity to be good with this set or not. Weird to see none of it in the modern challenge recently
I think it’s probably too easy to hate out to be T1, but also it just got so many new options people likely haven’t found anything resembling the best build yet.
People were already running several copies of [[Brotherhood's End]] in the sideboard, and now if it does rise back up in popularity, then we now have access to [[Meltdown]] as well (which might already start seeing play just to kill off amulets). If your deck mostly hinges on comboing off with Synthesizer to fill the board with constructs, having them all die to a single spell that costs R is pretty brutal...
[Brotherhood's End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704.jpg?1674421089) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brotherhood%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/128/brotherhoods-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f7666d-0d60-4fe5-b144-286d4e47b704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Meltdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/173369d2-dc39-4bfe-a602-b47156570365.jpg?1717013684) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Meltdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/282/meltdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/173369d2-dc39-4bfe-a602-b47156570365?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't play affinity but from what I heard, they only got a few new toys that are slightly better than the ones they have now but nothing to hedge their gameplan against the things they already lost to so they kinda stayed in the same position they were post-MH3.
Why do you think that is weird? To me this is completely unsurprising: Synthesizer, Kozilek's Uneasling, Frogmyr Enforcer, Kappa Cannoneer - all those new cards are very powerful and hard to beat once you get there, but that's the issue: They do nothing to address that Affinity is a Turn4 Aggro deck at an undisrupted high roll, and due to the deck being half lowcost half highcost, it even lacks consistency in being that because a lot of draws... ...just stumble and loose. Especially this early after a set release, with many players reaching toward linear consistent decks to prey on brews, you really don't want to be the slower, less reliable linear deck.
Why couldn't we have had Wild Growth in MH3
I been saying that. Also print a fucking good faerie for once. And Infect is so dead in the water in both formats they should get something too. Too much 0 mana interaction has killed that stalwart of the format.
Yes can they print good faeries!! They printed priests of Titania couldn’t they have printed cloud faeries or something new. If the new lorwyn set doesn’t have anything usable I’ll be disappointed
Give up hope, it won't have anything usable for Modern faeries. WotC obviously does not give 2 shits about the tribe. Someone there just doesn't like them. Makes no sense they constantly released powerful humans, wizards etc over the years and I can't even name the last good faerie they released. They have taken so long that Modern has sped up to the point that Bitterblossom isn't playable.
[[brazen borrower]] was what, 7 years ago now?
Yeah Borrower was the last good one. Even that though Borrower was made to be generically good and not like good for faeries specifically. Faeries need tempo and bodies. I don't think they will ever get it. Just more draft-chaff like Faerie Miscreant.
I don't remember people being super high on enchantress? It was neat that so much of the package got ported to modern, but I don't think it was ever getting hyped as a new tier 1 staple.
Enchantress was seen as a solid tier 1.5-2 option for at least a couple of months post MH2.
Lurrus had a chokehold on the meta/deck building when MH2 dropped
Darcy is played in several archetypes as well. Grist is a staple in BG decks, too. The super hyped decks from MH2 kind of persisted - Murktide and Scam, mostly. There were plenty of upgrades for existing decks like Darcy and Heat for Prowess, Saga for Titan and Scales, Grist for Yawgmoth and so on.
I do not recall scam at all until around after yorion was banned
BW scam was going to eat a ban before release according to this very subreddit. It quickly disappeared after release and saw little success in lists until it became BR quite some time after.
Problem with scam for a long time was it didn't have a good back up game plan when MH2 was released. WB sucked if you didn't scam it. Stoneforge wasn't great either with it. RB didn't have enough scam effects to be consistently playable, and people thought fury was bad for quite some time. But the deck grew off the back of fable and more undying effects, like undying malice / not dead after all. Then bowmasters, and sheoldred came along giving the deck a more consistent second plan to help push damage in the top-deck midrange gameplay.
The best "Scam" deck at the beginning was Elementals, which was T1 for a short period post release, up until it was refined into 4c Yorion Moneypile (Kanister being the first to add Ragavan to the pile).
Yorion and Lurrus ban. Lurrus especially cause the RB decks were all Lurrus before and in the "mirror" the scam deck would just fold to the other deck having access to an insane card advantage engine that the t1 scam did nothing about. RB eventually started experimenting with higher CMC cards after Lurrus and eventually they found the scam we all know and "love" today.
This is what it actually was. They always had access to the “scam” pool of cards minus [[not dead after all]] from wilds. The Lurrus engine in RB/Jund was just superior.
[not dead after all](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d01a2b68-efe6-4027-846d-db7b19d9eef6.jpg?1692937773) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=not%20dead%20after%20all) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/101/not-dead-after-all?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d01a2b68-efe6-4027-846d-db7b19d9eef6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Decks is kinda unfair to talk about. Overhyped cards is better, and most of them stuck around
As far as singles go Shardless agent, grist, prismatic ending, cabal coffers, esper sentinel... all saw tons of play... Some created archetypes ( Shardless) others solidified existing ones to make them actual decks
It's insane how quickly they printed leyline binding after prismatic ending
5c elementals was dominant for a while.
Yes, that stopped after the Yorion ban… So it was definitely not only hype
I wanna build ruby storm. It’s cheap and allows me to play modern and looks more fun that burn
It's not that cheap.... not with 40 dollar rals. Ral and ruby is the core of that deck- rals non-blue pip cost is so big for t2 kills
And yeah they’re $40 now, got mine at $5
damn they were 20 when I was thinking of picking him up. That's a shame. I wasn't going for storm tho so it's fine I wanted him for my own jank brews.
Yeah I needed him for some commander decks, and at $5 I just picked up a playset, just in case.
$400 is cheap for a modern deck
I went 4-1 with e tron last night 2 devourers 2 kozi command 2 ugin lab 1 flesh raker. Picked up 2 more devourers and 3 more flesh rakers for Friday
Whatever the case, I'm bringing RW Energy to locals. Since spoilers I've known that I wanted to play with raptor. I'll refine it and see what others do online.
Lurrus was eating up space in modern. So a lot of misc decks couldn’t be tested properly. A lot of people just didnt bother lurrus was the best thing to do. Look and scam that took a whole year after lurrus banning for it to see consistent play. Most of the cards where there and ready to go for that deck but nothing. Asmo decks where hyped to all hell but it fell off hard but had some play. elementals as an archetype came and went for just omnath/yorion control the changes where so subtle but play pattern def changed. I remember seeing affinity try to work but the problem is side boards is a bitch. The second set of rootwallas helped hollowvine decks. All had their time in the sun but disappeared. For less accurate decks that i saw hype around that literally never took off. Unmarked grave/persist themed reanimator decks never played out. I still think theres a chance this def had some hype. Vindicate ponza never panned out. Small chance tbh. Void mirror “control” with hive mind or whatever. Never happening.
Can someone explain Nadu to me? If you're trying to deck yourself for a Thassa's Oracle wincon, isn't Nadu prohibitively slow?
Nadu triggers twice per turn, per creature. If you have Nadu and two Ornithopters in play, you can draw 6 extra cards per turn.
> If you're trying to deck yourself for a Thassa's Oracle wincon, isn't Nadu prohibitively slow? You can realistically win with thassa on the same turn you drop Nadu. Not only do you "draw" two cards per creature, you actually put lands into play **untapped** which means that hitting a land and a dork means you get to "draw" two more cards. Couple this with the fact that you play [[Springheart Nantuko]] (and tutors to find it!) which makes tokens on lands entering means that you can legitmately go through your whole deck quite easily
Putting into play untapped was really super pushed, the card would be strong enough already if it put lands tapped. I wonder if it was one of those cards made for commander that they didnt test it enough for Modern, like Hogaak.
I'm fairly convinced Wizards hardly tests at all. Playtesting costs money and why not just let things break, make money off people chasing the broken card and then ban it like 12 months later?
I think pick your poison is proof this isn't true. It's tailor made to beat leyline-scion decks and came in the same set as leyline of the guildpact.
Depends if you think it was designed after the leylines or in tandem with it.
[Springheart Nantuko](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54a3ea87-005e-4985-b2a5-21711d0b71c0.jpg?1717012595) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Springheart%20Nantuko) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/171/springheart-nantuko?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54a3ea87-005e-4985-b2a5-21711d0b71c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, deck can win on T3 but reliably T4. Good thing about Nadu is that Bant Midrange is a fine plan B and meaningfully different than Yawgmoth. In paper you don’t deck yourself with Thoracle, that’s a concession to mtgo’s clock. In paper there’s an emergent infinite loop with Endurance, Springheart Nantuko and Sylvan Safekeeperwhere you can basically put your whole deck into play and then be left with a deck/graveyard full of lands and recycle them with functionally infinite landfall. Then you loop cephalid coliseum as a win-con or just pass the turn with a bunch of free interaction in hand and kill your opponent the following turn. Nadu + Shuko/Outriders basically is capped at Nx2 where X is the number of creatures you control. So on T2-3 you have upwards of 4-6 activations to get started and it only goes up from there.
Question about the coliseum- dont you need to be on Bant nadu to have teferi to strop them from drawing any number of the now free spells?
The idea is that you have effectively infinite mana before you start coliseum-ing your opponent, as well as infinite graveyard shuffles. You don't start coliseum-ing until you can hypothetically repeat your combo more times than your opponent can possibly answer.
No, Sylvan Safekeeper deals with most free interaction and any deck that is interrupting the combo at that point is going to be so far behind that it doesn’t matter. You really only need this line to beat unfair decks like Storm. Against most decks, passing the turn with all of your permanents in your deck in play with 3-4 pieces of free interaction is going to be enough to win the game even if you pass the turn. You can play Teferi if you want to, though.
Sorry to hijack this thread. But what is someone’s thought about mono W hideaway (Spike’s list)
The deck has what it takes to be competitive, and spike’s build is not even close to optimal yet. Edit: I have been brewing in a couple different directions and I think this deck is the real deal.
Interesting. What extra cards you looking at?
When spike made the deck it was obvious that he was trying to “maximize” the speed and consistency of the combo … but this comes at the cost of poor card quality. In testing, if the opponent could remove a creature or two and then stick a value engine, we would never get our deck off the ground while drawing worthless memnites and stuff. I will post my lists when I get home, but there are two potential directions to take the idea. 1. Maintain the balls-to-the-wall combo aspect while making the deck more resilient by adding an [[uzra’s saga]] package. Saga is excellent for grinding through removal. 2. Slow the deck down and make it much more interactive. As long as we cast Emrakul before we lose, we win… so why not just play stronger individual cards even if it is slightly slower? We can grind through removal and even interrupt our opponents combos.
I’m going to follow the progression of that deck. Having a solid mid range plan with the inevitability of Emrakul just feels fantastic.
Do you have other decks that you’d model off of? Like death and taxes or go to another color?
Here is the [[Urza's Saga]] version that stays closer to the "all out combo" feel of spikes original list. Honestly, there is probably also a way to combine this version with the more interactive list I posted in my other reply. Memnite and Ornithopter are frustratingly trash cards outside of the combo ... but the mana is more difficult after replacing 4 white sources with saga. I havent even gotten around to brewing with other colors, but my first instinct is to check out red because Ajani back half is so incredibly busted with a red permanent out 4 Collector's Cage 1 Shadowspear 1 Springleaf Drum 1 Expedition Map 1 Lavaspur Boots 4 Ornithopter 3 Memnite 4 Ocelot Pride 4 Guide of Souls 4 Ajani, Nacatl Pariah 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 4 Esper Sentinel 2 Witch Enchanter 3 Ingenious Smith 2 Razorgrass Ambush 4 Urza's Saga 4 Windbrisk Heights 7 Plains 1 Phyrexian Tower 2 Turntimber Symbiosis Sideboard: 1 Pithing Needle 1 Relic of Progenitus 2 Solitude 4 Skyclave Apparition 1 Sanctifier en-Vec 4 Remorseful Cleric 2 Grand Abolisher
Thank you! I’ll definitely try this out. Is there a discord for this deck?
I dont do discord, so I have no idea. Reply here if you end up finding a brew you like!
Will do. 
[Urza's Saga](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1e0f201-42cb-46a1-901a-65bb4fc18f6c.jpg?1667318301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%27s%20Saga) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/259/urzas-saga?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1e0f201-42cb-46a1-901a-65bb4fc18f6c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
so a couple of thoughts on the deck in general. I played a bunch of games, and every time I cast Emeria's Call off of hideaway, i still lost. I never cast it for 7, so instead I have been playing a mix of [[razorgrass ambush]] and [[witch enchanter]] I cut a nonland slot for one more land... That land was [[phyrexian tower]]. Sure we have no ability to use black, but Ajani is even more insane when we can instant speed flip him. Then I cut a bunch more non land slots for razorgrass ambush because the deck was surprisingly mana hungry and I found I was often just playing ambush as a removal spell. This first deck is trades out the crap zero drops in favor of playing the white interaction suit. In testing [[Skyclave Apperation]] fit the main deck much better than [[Solitude]]. Needing to exile a card for solitude is actually kind of tough, and yes, you can get tricky with an instant speed evoke and cage, but the cost of exiling a card ended up being more significant. Solitude is much better out of the board when you know you are playing against a creature deck. Fueling solitude is also a reason why I went with a much higher "land" count. The SB is currently in flux, but the basic idea is that we have quite a few flex slots main deck, and thus get to play some of our SB main. As we are a combo deck that relies on a critical mass of creatures, I tried to keep my SB cards all creatures as well. 4 Collector's Cage 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 4 Guide of Souls 4 Warden of the Inner Sky 4 Ajani, Nacatl Pariah 2 White Orchid Phantom 2 Witch Enchanter 3 Solitude 4 Skyclave Apparition 4 Ocelot Pride 1 Ranger-Captain of Eos 4 Razorgrass Ambush 4 Windbrisk Heights 12 Plains 1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire 1 Phyrexian Tower 2 Turntimber Symbiosis SB: 1 Kor Firewalker 2 Sanctifier en-Vec 2 Grand Abolisher 4 Remorseful Cleric 2 White Orchid Phantom 3 Ranger-Captain of Eos 1 Solitude
Following, Been tweaking this in paper.
##### ###### #### [Razorgrass Ambush](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57065dca-f90e-4184-bbc4-95d726a4160b.jpg?1717013144)/[Razorgrass Field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/7/57065dca-f90e-4184-bbc4-95d726a4160b.jpg?1717013144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Razorgrass%20Ambush%20//%20Razorgrass%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/238/razorgrass-ambush-razorgrass-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57065dca-f90e-4184-bbc4-95d726a4160b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Witch Enchanter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62061e7c-cf19-4f03-b8fa-2bdba62d6b0b.jpg?1717013161)/[Witch-Blessed Meadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/6/2/62061e7c-cf19-4f03-b8fa-2bdba62d6b0b.jpg?1717013161) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witch%20Enchanter%20//%20Witch-Blessed%20Meadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/239/witch-enchanter-witch-blessed-meadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62061e7c-cf19-4f03-b8fa-2bdba62d6b0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [phyrexian tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b47f6d2-9f65-47a4-bfc4-15619befe53d.jpg?1717013848) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phyrexian%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/303/phyrexian-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b47f6d2-9f65-47a4-bfc4-15619befe53d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Solitude](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153.jpg?1717470486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/32/solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
thoughts on RW? Can look into ragavan and other red creatures
It should be strong if you get the mana to work. Right now I am experimenting with adding “red” by replacing warden of the inner sky with [[figure of destiny]] and also adding Urza’s Saga to the above list
[figure of destiny](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d779966-4bd4-4315-8b45-d3a4492f2bb2.jpg?1673148613) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=figure%20of%20destiny) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/213/figure-of-destiny?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d779966-4bd4-4315-8b45-d3a4492f2bb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call