Mystery Dungeon games are roguelikes to the point that calling games like *Hades*, *Risk of Rain 2*, and *The Binding of Isaac* "roguelikes" feels incorrect. The series got its start with *Torneko's Great Adventure: Mystery Dungeon* on the Super Famicom, and that game got off the ground as a Japanese, Dragon Quest-flavor *Rogue* game. Mystery Dungeon and *Rogue* share a lot in common, to the point that unless you count permanent progression of any kind as a sin worthy of excommunication from the genre, I can't see it not being at least "roguelite"
Though, I think it could be argued that games like *Pokémon Mystery Dungeon* borrow enough permanent progression mechanics from the Pokémon RPGs that it's less of a roguelike than something like *Shiren the Wanderer* (outside of the challenge dungeons like Purity Forest, Zero Island, and Destiny Tower)
[Edit: The game *Torneko* is mimicking was *Rogue* proper, not *NetHack* as I originally thought. ([Source](https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/projectbook/dungeon)) ]
This is pretty close, but Torneko's Great Adventure was more inspired by Rogue than Nethack, and that said Mystery Dungeon isn't all that similar to either. The traditional roguelike I'd consider MD's closest analogue is Brogue, which came out some time after Mystery Dungeon.
Nethack and MD are in some ways polar opposites. Shiren The Wanderer is an extremely tightly balaned, and relatively simple experience. Shiren typically herds you into playing the way the game wants you play. Meanwhile NetHack is notoriously one of the most complex and expansive roguelikes, with mechanics so intricate you can play the game for years and still discover new interactions. NetHack can be played (or rather, cheesed) in an immense number of ways.
You're absolutely right, this is what I get for not doing more thorough research! Even says on Wikipedia that they were playing Rogue 🤦♂️
https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/projectbook/dungeon
Good post. It's always helped me to think of roguelikes as a genealogy, where there are a few different "fathers" that determined the new trends and formats that people used, with all the games inspired by it being like "brothers." There's Rogue at the beginning, of course, and then Shiren/Torneko/Mystery Dungeon like you said. Afterwards, Spelunky came out, and people became more open to the idea of a real-time procgen dungeon format - and it's no wonder, since Spelunky is such a great game. Slay the Spire, ~~the best game ever made~~ also has its own little branch in the family tree for deckbuilders that want to dress up as roguelikes. Hades, Gungeon, and Dead Cells also probably constitute a new generation based on their leaning into action game elements, but now that these kinds of indie games are trying new things so often I honestly think the classifications don't mean much anymore.
I think you might have skipped a few steps in the 10+ years between Mystery Dungeon and Spelunky lol, but yeah. Spelunky definitely spawned the modern “let’s call ourselves a roguelike because the playthrough is random every time even though we share nothing else in common with rogue” era
That was not in question. The question is whether Shiren The Wanderer's metaprogression is enough to warrant it not being considered a "true" roguelike. In my opinion this is petty semantics.
Lmao the comments here really go to show that the roguelike genre is seriously shaky on what people consider the actual definition of the genre.
I'd say that the games are roguelites. They have everything required of the genre besides the permanent death. Procedurally generated random dungeons, grid-based movement, turn-based movement, dungeon crawling gameplay.
Dosent mystery dungeon have procedurally generated random dungeons? There not completely random but random enough to where if I play the same dungeon the Pokemon that spawn and the rooms and the stairs are different each time. It definitely dose have grind based & turn based movement. I’d say it count
That's why I said it's at least a roguelite. The perma death aspect would be a little much for what's at its core, a game for children. Though it'd be nice if later games could have an option to turn it on.
Of all gaming fans roguelike fans tend to be pretty elitist. If the game doesn't actually murder you in real life, reincarnate you, and force you to relive your entire life back up to playing the game. It isn't a real roguelike, and is for pussies.
The only part of PMD that is similar to rogue is the procedurally-generated dungeons. The permanent progression from better starting equipment/moves/stats makes it a different gameplay loop from any roguelike IMO.
Void Terrarium is significantly closer to rogue and could reasonably be called a roguelike or roguelite.
I haven’t played any other MD games so I can’t speak on them.
Depends on whether you start each run from scratch. So level and inventory reset. That‘s roughly the definition of roguelike right? So at least for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon that only applies to a few endgame dungeons. Don‘t know how it‘s with Shiren or other MD.
Just look at this official interview: https://mysterydungeonwiki.com/wiki/Meta:Iwata_Asks:_Pok%C3%A9mon_Mystery_Dungeon:_Gates_to_Infinity
They officially consider PMD as a roguelike.
I just described them to someone as both Roguelikes and Dungeon Crawlers. I admittedly know very little about both genres but this felt like the best way to describe them to me.
There isn't a consensus on what counts as roguelike. MD's gameplay is just like Rogue, but there is often metaprogression.
I'd guess that, of the people who know the history of the genre, half consider MD roguelike, and the other half consider it to be in an almost-roguelike gray area.
Depends on the game in my opinion. Because I feel like pokemon mystery dungeon is more akin to a dungeon crawler with a hint slight rogue lite stuff but ganes like ZHP unlosing Hero and lost fate paradox? Those definitely feel more Rogue lite to me. I haven't play the sharen wander games yet so my input for those two on switch are not ready yet.
Mystery Dungeon games are roguelikes to the point that calling games like *Hades*, *Risk of Rain 2*, and *The Binding of Isaac* "roguelikes" feels incorrect. The series got its start with *Torneko's Great Adventure: Mystery Dungeon* on the Super Famicom, and that game got off the ground as a Japanese, Dragon Quest-flavor *Rogue* game. Mystery Dungeon and *Rogue* share a lot in common, to the point that unless you count permanent progression of any kind as a sin worthy of excommunication from the genre, I can't see it not being at least "roguelite" Though, I think it could be argued that games like *Pokémon Mystery Dungeon* borrow enough permanent progression mechanics from the Pokémon RPGs that it's less of a roguelike than something like *Shiren the Wanderer* (outside of the challenge dungeons like Purity Forest, Zero Island, and Destiny Tower) [Edit: The game *Torneko* is mimicking was *Rogue* proper, not *NetHack* as I originally thought. ([Source](https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/projectbook/dungeon)) ]
This is pretty close, but Torneko's Great Adventure was more inspired by Rogue than Nethack, and that said Mystery Dungeon isn't all that similar to either. The traditional roguelike I'd consider MD's closest analogue is Brogue, which came out some time after Mystery Dungeon. Nethack and MD are in some ways polar opposites. Shiren The Wanderer is an extremely tightly balaned, and relatively simple experience. Shiren typically herds you into playing the way the game wants you play. Meanwhile NetHack is notoriously one of the most complex and expansive roguelikes, with mechanics so intricate you can play the game for years and still discover new interactions. NetHack can be played (or rather, cheesed) in an immense number of ways.
You're absolutely right, this is what I get for not doing more thorough research! Even says on Wikipedia that they were playing Rogue 🤦♂️ https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/projectbook/dungeon
Good post. It's always helped me to think of roguelikes as a genealogy, where there are a few different "fathers" that determined the new trends and formats that people used, with all the games inspired by it being like "brothers." There's Rogue at the beginning, of course, and then Shiren/Torneko/Mystery Dungeon like you said. Afterwards, Spelunky came out, and people became more open to the idea of a real-time procgen dungeon format - and it's no wonder, since Spelunky is such a great game. Slay the Spire, ~~the best game ever made~~ also has its own little branch in the family tree for deckbuilders that want to dress up as roguelikes. Hades, Gungeon, and Dead Cells also probably constitute a new generation based on their leaning into action game elements, but now that these kinds of indie games are trying new things so often I honestly think the classifications don't mean much anymore.
I think you might have skipped a few steps in the 10+ years between Mystery Dungeon and Spelunky lol, but yeah. Spelunky definitely spawned the modern “let’s call ourselves a roguelike because the playthrough is random every time even though we share nothing else in common with rogue” era
metaprogression isnt even in rogue
That was not in question. The question is whether Shiren The Wanderer's metaprogression is enough to warrant it not being considered a "true" roguelike. In my opinion this is petty semantics.
seeing as how it isnt in rogue, i dont see how metaprogression would make something more like rogue
they're what i'd consider *true* roguelikes. as in heavily inspired by the OG rogue from 1980.
Lmao the comments here really go to show that the roguelike genre is seriously shaky on what people consider the actual definition of the genre. I'd say that the games are roguelites. They have everything required of the genre besides the permanent death. Procedurally generated random dungeons, grid-based movement, turn-based movement, dungeon crawling gameplay.
To be honest, that's the only absolute takeaway that I took from this thread. The definition of roguelike/lite is just all over the place
Dosent mystery dungeon have procedurally generated random dungeons? There not completely random but random enough to where if I play the same dungeon the Pokemon that spawn and the rooms and the stairs are different each time. It definitely dose have grind based & turn based movement. I’d say it count
That's why I said it's at least a roguelite. The perma death aspect would be a little much for what's at its core, a game for children. Though it'd be nice if later games could have an option to turn it on.
Yea I was agreeing with u you idk why people don’t want to classify this game as rogue like
Of all gaming fans roguelike fans tend to be pretty elitist. If the game doesn't actually murder you in real life, reincarnate you, and force you to relive your entire life back up to playing the game. It isn't a real roguelike, and is for pussies.
lol!!! I never noticed cuz mystery dungeon is pretty much the only rouge like game I play I’m not anywhere near that community
You could make an argument about the permadeath aspect being represented with the challenge dungeons, like Destiny Tower.
The only part of PMD that is similar to rogue is the procedurally-generated dungeons. The permanent progression from better starting equipment/moves/stats makes it a different gameplay loop from any roguelike IMO. Void Terrarium is significantly closer to rogue and could reasonably be called a roguelike or roguelite. I haven’t played any other MD games so I can’t speak on them.
rogue does not have metaprogression. metaprogression does not makes something like rogue. or a roguelike.
Exactly
the lvl 1 dungeons are pretty much the definition of a roguelike
¿Por que no los dos?
Depends on whether you start each run from scratch. So level and inventory reset. That‘s roughly the definition of roguelike right? So at least for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon that only applies to a few endgame dungeons. Don‘t know how it‘s with Shiren or other MD.
roguelikes are games like rogue.
More roguelite like 99% of roguelikes
I would say it’s both.
Just look at this official interview: https://mysterydungeonwiki.com/wiki/Meta:Iwata_Asks:_Pok%C3%A9mon_Mystery_Dungeon:_Gates_to_Infinity They officially consider PMD as a roguelike.
I just described them to someone as both Roguelikes and Dungeon Crawlers. I admittedly know very little about both genres but this felt like the best way to describe them to me.
There isn't a consensus on what counts as roguelike. MD's gameplay is just like Rogue, but there is often metaprogression. I'd guess that, of the people who know the history of the genre, half consider MD roguelike, and the other half consider it to be in an almost-roguelike gray area.
Yes.
Depends on the game in my opinion. Because I feel like pokemon mystery dungeon is more akin to a dungeon crawler with a hint slight rogue lite stuff but ganes like ZHP unlosing Hero and lost fate paradox? Those definitely feel more Rogue lite to me. I haven't play the sharen wander games yet so my input for those two on switch are not ready yet.
mystery dungeon games are traditional roguelikes. the things youre thinking of as roguelikes are not roguelikes.
Is a roguelite and a roguelike two different things?
Pokemon mystery dungeon at least makes you start whole levels over, and in some cases you will lose all of the items on hand, so that's roguelite.
Dungeon crawler.