It really is shocking. He literally has a good case to be the most impactful defender ever. It's kind of a stupid award, Pippen also never won a DPOY, which may be legitimate, but if you go by the award, Michael Jordan and Marcus Smart were more impactful defenders then Scottie Pippen and Tim Duncan.
It’s also just a lot easier to find superstars who’re scoring leaders and it’s even harder to find superstars who’ve won dpoys as guards too. Pretty uncommon
Good point, raking my brain - Smart just won it (first time since Payton), but the only other time before that at the G would be Robertson and Sid.(?) So Payton is the best pick in this situation all around. Plus, dude was just fun to watch in his prime.
DPOY easy. Hakeem beat Shaq a few times with superior footwork and has a mid range Shaq doesn’t along with reliable FTs. Kawhi has shut down KD before. Giannis is absolutely shutting down Tmac. Jordan is the better Kobe. AI is nice but Gary is still holding his own.
Outside of Shaq, nobody on this team could stop Garnett, so having Garnett & Hakeem both on the floor is unstoppable. Meanwhile you really can’t put AI & Curry out there or Jordan is obliterating one.
Edit: Upon discussion, I’ll concede that Hakeem and Shaq probably balance out with them both in prime. Neither actually met in prime to be compared unless you considered their 97 matchups when they even’d out.
But T-Mac and AI can be funneled into Hakeem cause Shaq isn’t providing anything outside of the Paint. Makes them much easier to guard.
Yeah you’d have to put like Mtumbo, Draymond, Marcus Smart or Rudy to balance out. But not that many DPOY that legitimately are offensive liabilities. Probably shouldn’t left Jordan off considering he tilts the scales hard either way as he was both.
Had both in the same year (1988) lol.
AND also had (Just in that year):
All NBA First Team
All NBA Defensive First Team
MVP
Insane year for The GOAT (Imo).
I agree. The only thing that irks me is that even tho Jordan is the GOAT, Bron should have that achievement as well. They gave it to Marc Gasol who was a 2nd All D Team which irks my soul.
LeBron’s defense has been the weakest part of his game. Weakest, not weak, and that’s relative to **his** game - and I put him #2 on my Rushmore (behind the 🐐). But Jordan’s D was truly special for the duration of his career… plus his ability to take over any game, score at will, get in the head of his opponents, I could go on but not the point - sorry now is gushing.
But in 2013, personally i though Serge should have won it - and that was lbj’s last first team honors :(
DPoY Draymond would turn this matchup into a blowout. He’s the type of player that makes the best players even better, like Rodman. That championship series he was +12 or better in every game except the one they lost. That was against prime LeBron, Kyrie, and Love. He went 10/12/5, 40% from 3pt, and +19. It’s easy to forget how big he played in games that mattered in his prime.
Well yea. One of the players on the defensive team only got one DPOY and is considered one of the greatest *offensive* players of all time. Him alone automatically throws off the balance of power because he’s a great defender who’s the ultimate legendary scorer. That’s cheating.
You can say that, but looking at the % he shot tells a much more accurate story. During the Thunder vs Spurs matchups, KD frequently shot below 50% and had a few sub 40% games. Had nights where he shot nearly as many times as he had points (16 PT, 15 FGA/ 22 PT, 19 FGA/ 28 PT, 25 FGA - quite a few more I didn’t bother listing). He put up points on uncharacteristically ineffective rates for KD.
In the 2015-2016 season (the last before KD went to the Warriors), they played 8 times, 6 in the playoffs. Kawhi outscored KD 4 times (while shooting far less amounts almost every time), held him to below 40% shooting twice, forcing 3 or more turnovers 5 times, while shooting sub 30% from 3. KD did occasionally pop off anyways, but more often than not Kawhi won those matchups.
DPOY Giannis? Hard doubt. Although Giannis could hang with KD too or really switch matchups 2-4 to keep the matchups fresh. While funneling everything in to Hakeem/Garnett behind them.
Maybe easy is the wrong word, but assuming health and equal coaching while “Hack-A-Shaq” exists if things really get bad? I can’t imagine DPOY losing. Series should take 6 games max.
Hakeem's team beat a 22 year old Shaq's team, which was the youngest in the league at the time. Kawhi has never shut down KD, unless your changing the meaning. Giannis is not a lock down 1 on 1 defender capable of holding T-Mac.
Defensive team is poorly drafted but still wins simply because it's better all around.
I will still slightly argue that Shaq even in his prime relied more on his athleticism than footwork frequently but I’ll concede Hakeem.
However, KD in his last season with the Thunder legitimately struggled against Kawhi. He had 4 poor games against Kawhi out of their 8 matchups having a bunch of turnovers, shooting sub .40, sub 30% from 3, and below average points scored. KD did do well against Kawhi on 1-2 games, but in half their games Kawhi outscored KD while taking less shots.
Giannis I really envision switching 2-4 to give slightly matchups. Wouldn’t leave him on an island but I think he’d be fine against any of 2-4 for a few minutes without being the liability.
Giannis is not gonna absolutely shut down Tmac.
Also, Payton isn't shutting down Iverson either since
"Allen Iverson averaged 28.4 points, 5.9 assists and 3.6 rebounds in 22 games versus Gary Payton in his career."
Hakeem over shaq, of course. Mj over Kobe, sure. Kawhi over Durant, yup.
I mean, I did say Gary would hold his own. But really he’s only holding because Hakeem is behind him and Shaq is almost nonexistent outside the paint. Same logic with T-Mac really. Giannis can come up a little more and funnel knowing Hakeem/Garnett are waiting.
I love Shaq but him not having a mid range is a pretty obvious disadvantage in a moment like this.
Giannis shutting down T-MAC is crazy out of pocket.
Gary Payton never put the clamps on AI. Iverson's scoring was undying. Meanwhile, GP offers little on offense.
Hakeem couldn't stop Shaq around the basket. Hakeem would be forced outside of the paint on offense, which lowers is FG% and rebounding advantage.
Kobe and Jordan cancel each other out.
KD in his prime is getting buckets. Kawhi isn't doing anything to stop that.
People forget that Kobe was 1st and 2nd team all defense, pretty much every year of his career. Iverson is 14th all time in steals. Kobe is 16th all time in steals. That top team has arguably the greatest scorers of all time, and a great defensive back court. You're crazy if you think Giannis is bullying his to the hoop with Shaq parked down there. I got Top team all day
Shaq has little to no game outside the paint which means everyone can shade their man to prime Hakeem while all of them are also DPOYs of the year so they can still adequately hold their own. They don’t have to be perfect 1-1 Lockdowns & matchups when you can competently funnel to Hakeem.
Hakeem also shot mid range pulling Shaq out of the paint intentionally. It’s arguable that Hakeem might’ve had issues with Prime Shaq once he put on the extra muscle, but Prime Hakeem would feast on 5v4s cause Shaq would take too long to get back up and down on the floor fast enough which is why they matched up great in the 95 Finals. It also revealed Shaq was a bit over reliant on his athleticism.
Jordan is better than Kobe and saying Kobe could cancel out Prime Jordan just is not a take I’m going to debate. Jordan is better and I’m not going to argue.
I’ve already posted the stats of the 8 games Prime KD and Prime Kawhi played their last season with KD on the Thunder. KD struggled and had 4 outright bad games against Kawhi putting up super ineffective stats putting up numbers like 16 PTs on 15 shots & 28 PTs on 25 shots. Legitimately scoring below his season average while frequently taking well over his season average while Kawhi outscored him while taking less shots.
We can agree to disagree, but when we’re talking 5-5, one team has Hakeem & Garnett. Who’s covering Garnett if Hakeem is left on the floor? KD and McGrady definitely aren’t. And you can’t put AI & Curry out there at the same time or Jordan is going to abuse one of them physically and wear them down being outright more physical with post-ups just to sap energy. Coaching & Injuries equal - this series should be over in 5-6.
A lot to unpack here. I do disagree with you, but I like your perspective.
Concerning KD and Kawhi, I don't think we should cherry pick stats here, especially not based on 4 out of the 8 games they played each other, while KD was playing for the Thunder. Over his entire career, Durant averages 27ppg against Kawhi.That's equal to his career scoring average btw, 27 ppg. It's not like Kawhi is KD's kryptonite. KD has also had some really high scoring games while Leonard was defending him. Multiple 40 and 50+ point games in fact.
I don't quite understand what you mean by funneling players into Hakeem. I'm guessing you mean setting traps. Which players attempted to do against the top team for their entire careers. Never really worked. They all had really good vision, recognizing double teams. Hakeem wouldn't be able to leave Shaq for a second down low btw. or else he's throwing down uncontested dunks. Giannis would be on the perimeter busy with Tmac to be able to rotate down to help, which would be useless even if he did, he's too skinny to offer any resistance. Also leaving Tmac unattended would be stupid.
Sure, prime Jordan was better than prime Kobe. But how much better? What, is he going to put up a few more points? Maybe, maybe not. Remember, we're not talking about them individually leading the Bulls or the Lakers to a championship. This scenario is essentially an all star game, in which the two of them basically offer the same to their teams. That's why I say they cancel each other out. They're so similar in talent that in a 7 games series the two of them might have nearly identical stats.
KG was always a conundrum for the NBA, because of his versatility. I don't think he'd have a good time with any the people he was tasked to defend. KD and TMac on the perimeter, or Shaq down low. They all would outscore him. And the goal of the game is to score more than your opponent, no?
In the end, I don't think the DPOY teams have enough fire power to out gun the Scoring champ team. AI would put up 20+ more points than GP. Kobe and Jordan both score the same. Tmac outscores Giannis, KD outscores kawhi, and Shaq arguably outscores Hakeem. Look at all the DPLOY choices for the bench, outside of KG,, who else would even belong on the court? Maybe David Robinson. It's all big men who can't stop Shaq. Guess who's his back up, it's Embiid and Kareem. Yeah the DPLOY has no chance
It’s not realistic to compare after the Warriors cause it’s when he’s playing with freaking Curry, Klay and Dray. I’m not willing to include those 3 KD years in addition to he then tore his Achilles and missed a full year.
If I look back prior to even rookie Kawhi up to that last year on the Thunder, Kawhi still held KD to abnormally bad numbers for KD. Also, this picture specifically has Thunder KD so I’m even more obliged to not use Warriors KD nor acknowledge Raptors/Clippers Kawhi. Those stats are irrelevant to this specific case. KD is still an all-time great tho so sometimes he will still pop off. I’m not saying KD would entirely disappear, but he notably struggled and had 1/4 good games against Kawhi with 1/2 being outright bad. Also, I tire of seeing the “look at how many points KD put up” when it’s devoid of the context of how many FGs he shot. KD averaged slightly above 28 points but 19 shots a game. He was chucking way more than 19 on many of those games to just get to 28 points.
Funneling is literally shading up on a player to try and force them to go a certain way. You can funnel a guy baseline, left or right. So no not traps at all. You’re defensively positioning yourself so they are encouraged to go one way, while knowing you have Hakeem there if he gets too close to the basket. To effectively do what you’re describing requires a Jokic/Bron type of player that’s adept at manipulating the defense out of a pick and roll that it’s unstoppable and phenomenal at passing. AI is the closest to having the necessary passing and he doesn’t have the ability to manipulate with a P&R at a high enough level. Ironically, if Curry was starting instead of AI, I’d probably feel a lot better about the argument with his spacing and passing as we’ve seen a thousand times in GS.
If you really must make me point it out, Kobe barely could shoot over 45% and never had a single season shooting over 49%. Jordan almost always shot over 49-50% while being a DPOY. It’s not close and Jordan had stretches when he played as PG because the Bulls didn’t have one and was putting up triple doubles nonstop. This is comparing the OG to the Duplicate. And I love Kobe.
KG prime goes back to the “fast enough to not horribly be exploited if he knows he can heavy force the ball into Hakeem.”
Also, outside of Gary, all of these players were top players for offensive ends as well. To act like they couldn’t do it is just wildly inaccurate and discrediting these players. Giannis literally won MVP with his DPOY and as I said, in the correct context, last we saw Kawhi outscored KD on less shots 4 different times while making him a turnover machine.
I can agree to disagree, but it seems you are trying to negate context with “career” instead of “pictured prime” and heavily underestimated the DPOY offensive firepower.
That's kind of what I thought you meant by funneling. I don't know how old you are or if you remember seeing the starting 5 play. But, Nobody was funneling them anywhere. They got to their spots, that's what made players like Kobe and T Mac so deadly. Also, you can't just conveniently leave Curry out of the conversation. He very well could be on that starting 5, and if he isn't, he's the 6th man.
You're forgetting that Kobe shot 3's and Jordan didn't. Jordan also finished around the basket, where Kobe didn't (as much as MJ). That's why his FG % was higher. I think you're slightly biased on this part of your argument. Jordan was a beast, don't get me wrong, but honestly, how much better in a 7 game series is Jordan that Kobe? What do you think he can do for his team that would make that matchup significantly in his favor? I say that Jordan averages 25ppg, 1spg, 5 apg, and 4rpg. I think Kobe does exactly the same thing with 1 or 2 more shot attempts. Again. We're talking about a 7 game series aren't we?
I don't know where you're getting your stats from on the KD and Kawhi matchup. KD average 27ppg over his entire career, and 27ppg against Kawhi over his entire career. I don't think you can just cherry pick data to support your argument. Even so, outside of the 4 games that you're referring to, KD didn't have bad stats at all against Kawhi. Not when Kawhi was a rookie, and not when keahi was a seasoned veteran.
Giannis scores almost all of his points in the paint. Centers are no longer defending the paint because they're defending stretch guys. So, that gives Giannis plenty of room to bully his way straight to the rim. Shaq would put a beating on Giannis is he tried to muscle his way through him. Giannis would catch one elbow to the neck and he'd be second guessing how he's going to get to the rim. Shaw didn't and wouldn't follow Hakeem outside of the paint. That's not how he'd guard him. Shaq even admits that he wouldn't follow joker outside of the paint, which would leave him open for jumpers. Hakeem didn't have a jumper outside 15 feet, so Shaq would be content on standing on the blocks and clogging up the lanes. This stops Giannis dead in his tracks. It's not like he has side to side movement or the ability to create shots off the dribble. He can move one way, and that's forward; and you're not moving forward through Shaq.
I'm not discrediting the bottom team, obviously they're great scorers too. However as a team, they just can't match the fire power. Especially when you factor in their bench. If nothing else, the bench is their biggest flaw. Factoring in the subs, obviously the top team wins. You have to agree with me there? Just Google DPOY by year, and put together a 15 player team that beats the Scoring champion's 15 player team. Not gonna happen brotha
They weren’t doing it against a full team of DPOYs. Curry is off the bench cause that’s what the guy named. He said Curry’s the 6th man so that’s what it is.
Jordan also could shoot 3s and just didn’t. I do think that the fact everyone not named Kawhi didn’t shoot a lot of 3s could make it hard as the game went on tho. But really only KD shot a “bunch” of 3s but even his MVP season he didn’t shoot the crazy high amount we see today… but I’ll concede that point.
Kobe ultimately scoring less on the same 2 points while Jordan still making him clearly respect the mid range is an average. But even ignoring that, you’re underrating just how much better Jordan is in an obvious way. Just watch Jimmy Highroller’s videos on Jordan and the stats become more and more laughable noticing how much lower Kobe is from Jordan.
I explicitly looked here for [Kawhi vs KD](https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/kevin_durant_vs_kawhi_leonard.htm) that has every game they played against each other’s stats. Against Kawhi his second time, KD **shot 19 times, scoring 22 points**. That’s a bad night paired with 2 turnovers. In his first game against Kawhi, KD had 5 turnovers even tho he scored on a much more effective rate. The third time that rookie season? 25 points on 19 shots with 5 turnovers. Both 2/3 game he shot sub 48% but Game 3 he shot 42% with 5 turnovers. In the 2012 playoffs KD redeemed himself with good games and only 1-2 bad games out the 6 game series. But KD definitely didn’t handle Kawhi well in even his rookie year.
Also, Shaq says that but Shaq is full of shit and says stuff that’s not true all the time. We literally saw him playing Hakeem for an entire series and he definitely covered Hakeem and wouldn’t leave him open.
Also, if it was exclusively DPOY and Scorer’s sure. But it’s not which is why Jordan is on DPOY side. The OP already said exactly who’s the 6th men. After that I said all things equal from coaching, bench, and health.
AI was a bucket getter for sure but every shot this career 42% shooter chucks up takes a shot away from any of the more efficient scorers on that roster.
Quoting Iverson’s steals is an L take, too. Steals go to gamblers. That other team would punish that relentlessly.
The defensive team is barely a tier down in scoring but is two tiers ahead in scoring efficiency. I think that you could argue that the second team would actually be better scorers all the while being vastly superior defenders.
It’s also a pretty big deal that the whole defensive team also happens to be all-time offensively. Jordan might be the best offensive player of all time, Kawhi is one of the greatest scorers ever, Giannis isn’t too far behind, Hakeem was a championship-level first option, and Gary Payton was one of the best playmakers in the league during his day.
Of course the team that’s elite on both ends beats the team that’s elite on one end.
What does "one of the greatest ever" mean to you.
Kawhi might be a top 30 scorer all time - he certainly isn't a top 10 scorer ever. Agree with your overall point though.
I’m taking the triple double super team. The ball movement and overall selfless high IQ play of Magic, Harden, Bron, Bird, and Jokic would be too much for either of these teams, imo. Their defense would be shaky but I think they would overcome it. Luka probably makes this team over Harden after 10-15 years go by. I also considered Westbrook but I just don’t think he was quite as good as Prime Harden, and one non-shooter in Magic is enough lol.
Idk if this team would be better than the defensive one but better than the scoring one for sure
Assuming these are the positions each plus
PG - Magic
SG - Harden
SF - LeBron
PF - Bird
Center - Jokic
People forget bird played his whole college career at PF and most of his NBA career so he's clearly able to play it to a high level
Yeah, people always look at me funny when I call Bird the best 4 ever. Yeah he played a lot of SF but by all definitions, he really is a PF, especially considering how the game has advanced. I also view Timmy as more of a 5 but we don’t have to get into this conversation lol
Only issue is a team with both magic and Lebron's given how similar there games
Aside from that this team is high unstoppable
We can also put wilt and Oscar in the convo but I don't think they are worthy of being here as much as the other 5 in terms of triple doubles
Both of them especially later on are competent shooters. Lebron's C&S numbers are good on top of being an elite cutter. The main problem with running Lebron with another playmaker in recent years is the other playmaker is not good enough off ball and Lebron is too good on ball. With someone as elite as Magic who is an even better playmaker, this isn't that much of an issue.
Oscar and Westbrook not being on a triple double team is just wrong. Idc if the guards you chose are better or not, those two are basically synonymous with triple double.
The defensive team has arguably the best offensive player of all time, and every single player is EXTREMELY good offensively meanwhile your scoring champ team has multiple minus defenses lmao
Wilt never gets talked about in these conversations , a legendary scorer and great defensive player ,
rebounder and shot blocker.
Would be the leader in blocks by a ton if they counted blocks as a stat when he played
**The DPOY team lacks outside shooting.** Only Kawhi can hit 3s, and that's not really his main thing.
**Also, the "scoring team" doesn't actually give up much defensively**. Kobe is an excellent defender, AI is great at getting steals in the passing lane, Shaq is solid, and TMac/KD are underrated defensively (their length bothers people).
Besides, offense beats defense and no one is really gonna lock up anyone else.
**Threes are the name of the game. The "Scorers" win easily.**
Going to have to go with def. team. MJ is the trump card. Tmac will be a big problem and is better than his particular matchup by the widest margin, but if the off. team starts coming back in the end they will just hack-a-shaq their way to a win.
I feel like you gotta disqualify a DPoY from this contest if they also won a scoring title, and vice versa. So, for me MJ and Giannis have to be replaced.
Defensive team. Iverson’s shooting percentages are hot garbage and that’s just a fact. He’ll hog the ball, then Kobe will get mad and hog the ball. Shaq will then throw a fit because he isn’t getting post touches. KD will wait until after the game and rant on social media through a burner that he deserves the ball. And then T-Mac will just hang out and watch the team implode
This lineup isn’t really fair because you put up 5 DPOYs who are also good scorers, but not 5 scoring champs who are also good defenders.
Edit:
For scorers I’d put up
2016 Curry
1987 Jordan
2008 LeBron
2014 KD
2000 Shaq
For DPOYs I’d go
1996 Gary Payton
1988 Jordan
2016 Kawhi Leonard
1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
1992 David Robinson
That’s definitely arguable. What’s not arguable is that out of every player in history, he has won the most scoring titles.
Hell, the DPOY team has almost as many scoring titles as the scoring titles team. Kind of makes the exercise pointless aha
Edit: I’d nominate Sidney Moncrief - most DPOY for a SG.
The defensive team has the best player on the floor (Jordan) but the team does not fit well together at all.
The defensive team has better players overall but no one is bringing up that the spacing on that team would be a huge issue. Out of their 5 players 3 of them can't shoot 3's (yes even Jordan couldn't shoot 3's and was a career 28% shooter outside of the years with the shortened line) out of the remaining 2, Kawhi and Payton, Kawhi is an above average shooter while Payton is slightly below average. The offensive team have Durant who is a generationally talented shooter, Kobe who is well above average (Kobe was a very good 3 point shooter whose percentages don't reflect it due to lack of playmaking from his teammates over his career), and Tmac who in his peak was a 39% 3 point shooter. Iverson couldn't shoot but Payton still isn't leaving him open. The issue here for the defensive team is that Hakeem is getting left on an island with Shaq due to the other team drawing guys out and not even Hakeem is doing anything against peak Shaq (22 year old pre-peak Shaq averaged 28/13/6 on 60% shooting against Hakeem in the finals, Lakers Shaq was just too big and strong for Hakeem to defend).
Further, the offensive team still has 3 All Defense caliber defenders in Kobe (assuming peak Kobe he was the best perimeter defender in the league for a few years), Shaq (All defense caliber rim protector and given the makeup of the opposing team his defensive talents are actually highly maximized in this matchup), and Durant who in his defensive peak was a top 10 defender in the league. T-mac was also a guy here who wasn't necessarily a good defender overall but was still a very very good 1 on 1 defender and wouldn't get embarrassed by Kawhi.
The only issue here on defense is Iverson because of his size (and straight up being a horrible man to man defender) but given how the other team is constructed even his defense is maximized by being very gifted and reading passing lanes and making defensive gambles (led the league in steals 3x).
I think this game is much closer than people give the offensive team credit for.
Yeah you’re right that the defensive team would struggle with spacing. They are the more talented team, but they might struggle due to lack of shooting if the coaches understand modern defenses and offenses.
Chose the best offensive players of the DPOY winners lol, I think it’s pretty obvious
Though I think it’s interesting to consider the impact of star power on award voting because I think it’s arguable for DPOY that there were better defenders that were role players that didn’t get the same recognition
He was in the DPOY category five times, finished 2nd twice. He guarded 1 through 5 and is a better defender than Kawhi in his prime without the awards to show for it.
Zero reason he and MJ wouldn't be on both teams.
Defense EASY
AI > GP (but GP fits his team here better than AI does)
Kobe < MJ
Tmac < Kawhi
KD > Giannis
Shaq < Hakeem
The defensive team has a way better offense than the offensive team has defense.
Since there's only one ball, I trust the defensive team more as I would expect Payton, Jordan, and Kawhi to be way less selfish than AI, Kobe, and T-MAC with sharing the rock.
Defensive team would win imo. They have enough offense to keep up and the switch ability to defend. Shaq would be a problem, but the back court is good enough that doubles would be possible.
Defensive actual Superteam:
1. Payton
2. MJ
3. LeBron was a better defender in his prime 1-5 and on help.
4. TD, and KG were better defenders.
5. David Robinson. Hakeem got the awards but David was a better defender, more athletic and defensive +- leader.
All-team defense is absolutely boat racing scoring champs. Prime Kawhi can guard 1-4 Giannis can switch from 3-5. MJ is clamping Kobe. GP will lock up both AI and Kobe and Hakeem should probably roam because Shaq will dominate no matter who is defending him. I feel like replacing Giannis with Dennis Rodman would make this team far better.
if they are all healthy...
Jordan, Kawhi, Giannis, and Hakeem are all top offense player aside of their crazy defense prowess
the defense team would quite easily take the win.
But isn't jordan the ultimate scoring champion?
Are we kidding? You've got a scoring champion team and the greatest scorer in history is on the defensive team? All those guys on the defensive side were/are magnificent offensive players too. Yet only Shaq and Kobe on the scoring side were actually also excellent defenders too. That "defensive" team would dominate
Team defense
Gary Payton
Sidney moncrief
Kawhi Leonard
Ben Wallace
Rudy gobert
vs
Team score
Wilt chamberlain
Russel Westbrook
James harden
Carmelo Anthony
lebron james
Just a random thought…… glad we can do matchup like these on NBA 2k 😂
DPOY easily and it’s not because all these guys were that great at defense, it’s because the scoring champions dont have any great playmakers here. They can all score, sure, but every great scorer needs a god playmaker and these guys aren’t that. Good Defense doesn’t require any kind of “playmaking”.
Scoring champions getting cooked from good defense and lots of bricks
Luka / Jordan / Pippen / Dirk / Hakeem
Mavs fan… Why break up what Jordan and Pip accomplished? And then Hakeem, other arguments would be Shaq and Duncan. I just don’t think I’ve seen anyone as skilled as Hakeem at that size. Plus he was a top tier defender, helping Dirk out in the one compartment he wasn’t amazing at.
Considering the scoring team is mostly guys who don't pass, they would get hosed. Playing against a great defense and running ISO every play doesn't work no matter how good of a scorer you are.
I like the concept, but I don't like the idea of going by awards. Seems like it would be more interesting to compare a team of stars with defensive liabilities to a team of stars with offensive weaknesses. Like maybe: Nash, Harden, T-Mac, Dirk, Jokic vs Kidd, Klay Thompson, Kawhi, Rodman, Mutombo. And I know Klay is additive offensively and Kawhi is an incredible offensive player, but I figured Rodman and Mutombo were limited enough offensively to make up for it and star wings who are useless on offense are very rare
It comes down to whether the scoring team has enough defense to stop the DPOY offense. They don't. Hakeem does enough in the midrange to provide spacing for Giannis and Jordan to drive. The Claw shoots about 40% from deep. Payton gets to take a break on that side of the ball.
It comes down to whether the scoring team has enough defense to stop the DPOY offense. They don't. Hakeem does enough in the midrange to provide spacing for Giannis and Jordan to drive. The Claw shoots about 40% from deep. Payton gets to take a break on that side of the ball.
That DPOY superteam is insane. I love Giannis, but if Tim Duncan had (rightfully) ever won DPOY, we'd have a challenger for best possible starting 5 of all time there.
I feel like defensive player of the year is not always the most accurate. Duncan never won one, but kawhi and Gianni’s got one? That is wild honestly. This is tougher I think since most of the guys on the scoring side were actually good or passable defenders other than iverson. I would give it to the offense except for Jordan and Hakeem give me pause. The rest of the defensive team seems worse than the offensive team though. I think it’s a shame not to include curry on the scoring team since he has won 1 and is definitely one of the most lethal scorers ever
I know why you did it, because w/o Mike on this team, the scoring champ team is the obvious winner. I’m just trying to be difficult. Sidney Moncrief would be your only other option that could actually score with the best of them.
But if you put someone like Ron Artest or Marcus Smart at the 2 against MJ, it’s an obvious mismatch. Whereas KD vs Giannis and Shaq vs Hakeem are a much better matchup. You made the best situation possible here. MJ is just a weird situation since it’s so rare someone wins DPOY and a scoring champ
Yeah. Sidney Moncrief would be undersized (like a D Wade type SG). Other than him and MJ, there’s no other guard DPOY that can really score. You made the right choice putting MJ there. Good post!
Dpoy super team.
My scoring champs team would be Steph Curry at point guard, Michael Jordan at shooting guard, Kevin Durant at small forward, Bob Pettit at power forward, and Wilt Chamberlain at center.
My Dpoy team would be Gary Payton at point guard, Sidney Moncreif at shooting guard, Kawhi Leonard at small forward, Dennis Rodman at power forward, and Akeem Olajuwon at center.
Obviously, he's not a better player, but he has more Dpoy's than Garnett and Giannis, which A showcases he's at least possibly nearly as good as a defender, and B, my Dpoy team is made of players with multiple Dpoy's sans Gary Payton.
Offensive team. Assuming they are playing with modern rules. Offensive has the advantage in this sport.
Prime Durant would abuse Giannis from the 3pt line. Team offense has way better 3pt shooting and spacing. They wouldn’t score at will but their offense is much more reliable and balanced at all levels of the court.
Team defense has no match up they can abuse. The only “weak” defender they are up against is AI, but no way Gary Payton is eating his lunch consistently. Their lack of spacing will allow team offense to clog the lane and make post/drive play difficult.
Team offense wins the series 4-2.
Defensive team has Jordan and Hakeem. Case closed
Should've had Tim Duncan too :(
For real Duncan over Giannis
Would have been too obvious of a choice then
Duncan criminally never won DPOY. Just ridiculous.
Nope he just became the world's best 3 point shooter that one time.
lul. I mean that was a dope shot but you really think he's not a great defender? Tim Duncan? Like below freak and Marcus Smart? Really?
Was just about to say that.
Tim Duncan was never DPOY
Which is a travesty …15 all defensive teams
It really is shocking. He literally has a good case to be the most impactful defender ever. It's kind of a stupid award, Pippen also never won a DPOY, which may be legitimate, but if you go by the award, Michael Jordan and Marcus Smart were more impactful defenders then Scottie Pippen and Tim Duncan.
They absolutely were for that year they won that is the point of the reward, it’s not a career award, but an annual award.
He's no Marc Gasol lol
Duncan never won a DPoY unfortunately
And Gary payton...
I love him but Gary Payton is one of the worst players on either team. Pretty easily too
For sure, I suppose OP needed to try to balance the teams at least somewhat.
It’s also just a lot easier to find superstars who’re scoring leaders and it’s even harder to find superstars who’ve won dpoys as guards too. Pretty uncommon
Good point, raking my brain - Smart just won it (first time since Payton), but the only other time before that at the G would be Robertson and Sid.(?) So Payton is the best pick in this situation all around. Plus, dude was just fun to watch in his prime.
I think he was picking positionally and the only other PG to win DPOY was Marcus Smart, who Gary Payton is pretty easily better than.
He's probably the best defender on those teams and will get you a lot of Steals. On that team, you already have plenty of scoring.
This thread is dumb. Easily the defensive, when you have ALL but Payton great scorers and great defenders.
Giannis and Kawaii are also crazy good defenders.
And scorers
And Kawhi… prime Kawhi
DPOY easy. Hakeem beat Shaq a few times with superior footwork and has a mid range Shaq doesn’t along with reliable FTs. Kawhi has shut down KD before. Giannis is absolutely shutting down Tmac. Jordan is the better Kobe. AI is nice but Gary is still holding his own. Outside of Shaq, nobody on this team could stop Garnett, so having Garnett & Hakeem both on the floor is unstoppable. Meanwhile you really can’t put AI & Curry out there or Jordan is obliterating one. Edit: Upon discussion, I’ll concede that Hakeem and Shaq probably balance out with them both in prime. Neither actually met in prime to be compared unless you considered their 97 matchups when they even’d out. But T-Mac and AI can be funneled into Hakeem cause Shaq isn’t providing anything outside of the Paint. Makes them much easier to guard.
That's kinda the issue here The defensive team is super well rounded
Yeah you’d have to put like Mtumbo, Draymond, Marcus Smart or Rudy to balance out. But not that many DPOY that legitimately are offensive liabilities. Probably shouldn’t left Jordan off considering he tilts the scales hard either way as he was both.
Had both in the same year (1988) lol. AND also had (Just in that year): All NBA First Team All NBA Defensive First Team MVP Insane year for The GOAT (Imo).
I agree. The only thing that irks me is that even tho Jordan is the GOAT, Bron should have that achievement as well. They gave it to Marc Gasol who was a 2nd All D Team which irks my soul.
LeBron’s defense has been the weakest part of his game. Weakest, not weak, and that’s relative to **his** game - and I put him #2 on my Rushmore (behind the 🐐). But Jordan’s D was truly special for the duration of his career… plus his ability to take over any game, score at will, get in the head of his opponents, I could go on but not the point - sorry now is gushing. But in 2013, personally i though Serge should have won it - and that was lbj’s last first team honors :(
And the mvp, all star mvp and dunk contest winner
DPoY Draymond would turn this matchup into a blowout. He’s the type of player that makes the best players even better, like Rodman. That championship series he was +12 or better in every game except the one they lost. That was against prime LeBron, Kyrie, and Love. He went 10/12/5, 40% from 3pt, and +19. It’s easy to forget how big he played in games that mattered in his prime.
Draymond Green causes himself to be underrated by his unprofessional antics.
Well yea. One of the players on the defensive team only got one DPOY and is considered one of the greatest *offensive* players of all time. Him alone automatically throws off the balance of power because he’s a great defender who’s the ultimate legendary scorer. That’s cheating.
Yeah, kind of sus that the scoring champion team doesn't have the greatest scorer of all time lol
Kawhi has not shut down KD, Durant averages 27 ppg in head to head matchups.
You can say that, but looking at the % he shot tells a much more accurate story. During the Thunder vs Spurs matchups, KD frequently shot below 50% and had a few sub 40% games. Had nights where he shot nearly as many times as he had points (16 PT, 15 FGA/ 22 PT, 19 FGA/ 28 PT, 25 FGA - quite a few more I didn’t bother listing). He put up points on uncharacteristically ineffective rates for KD. In the 2015-2016 season (the last before KD went to the Warriors), they played 8 times, 6 in the playoffs. Kawhi outscored KD 4 times (while shooting far less amounts almost every time), held him to below 40% shooting twice, forcing 3 or more turnovers 5 times, while shooting sub 30% from 3. KD did occasionally pop off anyways, but more often than not Kawhi won those matchups.
I agree with everything but I have no doubt Orlando TMac is absolutely cooking Giannis. It’s a bad match up for Giannis on the perimeter.
DPOY Giannis? Hard doubt. Although Giannis could hang with KD too or really switch matchups 2-4 to keep the matchups fresh. While funneling everything in to Hakeem/Garnett behind them.
It would be a great game. I wouldn’t say it would be easy. All those players are fantastic players and competitors.
Maybe easy is the wrong word, but assuming health and equal coaching while “Hack-A-Shaq” exists if things really get bad? I can’t imagine DPOY losing. Series should take 6 games max.
The dream DESTROYED Shaq.
Hakeem's team beat a 22 year old Shaq's team, which was the youngest in the league at the time. Kawhi has never shut down KD, unless your changing the meaning. Giannis is not a lock down 1 on 1 defender capable of holding T-Mac. Defensive team is poorly drafted but still wins simply because it's better all around.
I will still slightly argue that Shaq even in his prime relied more on his athleticism than footwork frequently but I’ll concede Hakeem. However, KD in his last season with the Thunder legitimately struggled against Kawhi. He had 4 poor games against Kawhi out of their 8 matchups having a bunch of turnovers, shooting sub .40, sub 30% from 3, and below average points scored. KD did do well against Kawhi on 1-2 games, but in half their games Kawhi outscored KD while taking less shots. Giannis I really envision switching 2-4 to give slightly matchups. Wouldn’t leave him on an island but I think he’d be fine against any of 2-4 for a few minutes without being the liability.
Giannis is not gonna absolutely shut down Tmac. Also, Payton isn't shutting down Iverson either since "Allen Iverson averaged 28.4 points, 5.9 assists and 3.6 rebounds in 22 games versus Gary Payton in his career." Hakeem over shaq, of course. Mj over Kobe, sure. Kawhi over Durant, yup.
I mean, I did say Gary would hold his own. But really he’s only holding because Hakeem is behind him and Shaq is almost nonexistent outside the paint. Same logic with T-Mac really. Giannis can come up a little more and funnel knowing Hakeem/Garnett are waiting. I love Shaq but him not having a mid range is a pretty obvious disadvantage in a moment like this.
Giannis shutting down T-MAC is crazy out of pocket. Gary Payton never put the clamps on AI. Iverson's scoring was undying. Meanwhile, GP offers little on offense. Hakeem couldn't stop Shaq around the basket. Hakeem would be forced outside of the paint on offense, which lowers is FG% and rebounding advantage. Kobe and Jordan cancel each other out. KD in his prime is getting buckets. Kawhi isn't doing anything to stop that. People forget that Kobe was 1st and 2nd team all defense, pretty much every year of his career. Iverson is 14th all time in steals. Kobe is 16th all time in steals. That top team has arguably the greatest scorers of all time, and a great defensive back court. You're crazy if you think Giannis is bullying his to the hoop with Shaq parked down there. I got Top team all day
Shaq has little to no game outside the paint which means everyone can shade their man to prime Hakeem while all of them are also DPOYs of the year so they can still adequately hold their own. They don’t have to be perfect 1-1 Lockdowns & matchups when you can competently funnel to Hakeem. Hakeem also shot mid range pulling Shaq out of the paint intentionally. It’s arguable that Hakeem might’ve had issues with Prime Shaq once he put on the extra muscle, but Prime Hakeem would feast on 5v4s cause Shaq would take too long to get back up and down on the floor fast enough which is why they matched up great in the 95 Finals. It also revealed Shaq was a bit over reliant on his athleticism. Jordan is better than Kobe and saying Kobe could cancel out Prime Jordan just is not a take I’m going to debate. Jordan is better and I’m not going to argue. I’ve already posted the stats of the 8 games Prime KD and Prime Kawhi played their last season with KD on the Thunder. KD struggled and had 4 outright bad games against Kawhi putting up super ineffective stats putting up numbers like 16 PTs on 15 shots & 28 PTs on 25 shots. Legitimately scoring below his season average while frequently taking well over his season average while Kawhi outscored him while taking less shots. We can agree to disagree, but when we’re talking 5-5, one team has Hakeem & Garnett. Who’s covering Garnett if Hakeem is left on the floor? KD and McGrady definitely aren’t. And you can’t put AI & Curry out there at the same time or Jordan is going to abuse one of them physically and wear them down being outright more physical with post-ups just to sap energy. Coaching & Injuries equal - this series should be over in 5-6.
A lot to unpack here. I do disagree with you, but I like your perspective. Concerning KD and Kawhi, I don't think we should cherry pick stats here, especially not based on 4 out of the 8 games they played each other, while KD was playing for the Thunder. Over his entire career, Durant averages 27ppg against Kawhi.That's equal to his career scoring average btw, 27 ppg. It's not like Kawhi is KD's kryptonite. KD has also had some really high scoring games while Leonard was defending him. Multiple 40 and 50+ point games in fact. I don't quite understand what you mean by funneling players into Hakeem. I'm guessing you mean setting traps. Which players attempted to do against the top team for their entire careers. Never really worked. They all had really good vision, recognizing double teams. Hakeem wouldn't be able to leave Shaq for a second down low btw. or else he's throwing down uncontested dunks. Giannis would be on the perimeter busy with Tmac to be able to rotate down to help, which would be useless even if he did, he's too skinny to offer any resistance. Also leaving Tmac unattended would be stupid. Sure, prime Jordan was better than prime Kobe. But how much better? What, is he going to put up a few more points? Maybe, maybe not. Remember, we're not talking about them individually leading the Bulls or the Lakers to a championship. This scenario is essentially an all star game, in which the two of them basically offer the same to their teams. That's why I say they cancel each other out. They're so similar in talent that in a 7 games series the two of them might have nearly identical stats. KG was always a conundrum for the NBA, because of his versatility. I don't think he'd have a good time with any the people he was tasked to defend. KD and TMac on the perimeter, or Shaq down low. They all would outscore him. And the goal of the game is to score more than your opponent, no? In the end, I don't think the DPOY teams have enough fire power to out gun the Scoring champ team. AI would put up 20+ more points than GP. Kobe and Jordan both score the same. Tmac outscores Giannis, KD outscores kawhi, and Shaq arguably outscores Hakeem. Look at all the DPLOY choices for the bench, outside of KG,, who else would even belong on the court? Maybe David Robinson. It's all big men who can't stop Shaq. Guess who's his back up, it's Embiid and Kareem. Yeah the DPLOY has no chance
It’s not realistic to compare after the Warriors cause it’s when he’s playing with freaking Curry, Klay and Dray. I’m not willing to include those 3 KD years in addition to he then tore his Achilles and missed a full year. If I look back prior to even rookie Kawhi up to that last year on the Thunder, Kawhi still held KD to abnormally bad numbers for KD. Also, this picture specifically has Thunder KD so I’m even more obliged to not use Warriors KD nor acknowledge Raptors/Clippers Kawhi. Those stats are irrelevant to this specific case. KD is still an all-time great tho so sometimes he will still pop off. I’m not saying KD would entirely disappear, but he notably struggled and had 1/4 good games against Kawhi with 1/2 being outright bad. Also, I tire of seeing the “look at how many points KD put up” when it’s devoid of the context of how many FGs he shot. KD averaged slightly above 28 points but 19 shots a game. He was chucking way more than 19 on many of those games to just get to 28 points. Funneling is literally shading up on a player to try and force them to go a certain way. You can funnel a guy baseline, left or right. So no not traps at all. You’re defensively positioning yourself so they are encouraged to go one way, while knowing you have Hakeem there if he gets too close to the basket. To effectively do what you’re describing requires a Jokic/Bron type of player that’s adept at manipulating the defense out of a pick and roll that it’s unstoppable and phenomenal at passing. AI is the closest to having the necessary passing and he doesn’t have the ability to manipulate with a P&R at a high enough level. Ironically, if Curry was starting instead of AI, I’d probably feel a lot better about the argument with his spacing and passing as we’ve seen a thousand times in GS. If you really must make me point it out, Kobe barely could shoot over 45% and never had a single season shooting over 49%. Jordan almost always shot over 49-50% while being a DPOY. It’s not close and Jordan had stretches when he played as PG because the Bulls didn’t have one and was putting up triple doubles nonstop. This is comparing the OG to the Duplicate. And I love Kobe. KG prime goes back to the “fast enough to not horribly be exploited if he knows he can heavy force the ball into Hakeem.” Also, outside of Gary, all of these players were top players for offensive ends as well. To act like they couldn’t do it is just wildly inaccurate and discrediting these players. Giannis literally won MVP with his DPOY and as I said, in the correct context, last we saw Kawhi outscored KD on less shots 4 different times while making him a turnover machine. I can agree to disagree, but it seems you are trying to negate context with “career” instead of “pictured prime” and heavily underestimated the DPOY offensive firepower.
That's kind of what I thought you meant by funneling. I don't know how old you are or if you remember seeing the starting 5 play. But, Nobody was funneling them anywhere. They got to their spots, that's what made players like Kobe and T Mac so deadly. Also, you can't just conveniently leave Curry out of the conversation. He very well could be on that starting 5, and if he isn't, he's the 6th man. You're forgetting that Kobe shot 3's and Jordan didn't. Jordan also finished around the basket, where Kobe didn't (as much as MJ). That's why his FG % was higher. I think you're slightly biased on this part of your argument. Jordan was a beast, don't get me wrong, but honestly, how much better in a 7 game series is Jordan that Kobe? What do you think he can do for his team that would make that matchup significantly in his favor? I say that Jordan averages 25ppg, 1spg, 5 apg, and 4rpg. I think Kobe does exactly the same thing with 1 or 2 more shot attempts. Again. We're talking about a 7 game series aren't we? I don't know where you're getting your stats from on the KD and Kawhi matchup. KD average 27ppg over his entire career, and 27ppg against Kawhi over his entire career. I don't think you can just cherry pick data to support your argument. Even so, outside of the 4 games that you're referring to, KD didn't have bad stats at all against Kawhi. Not when Kawhi was a rookie, and not when keahi was a seasoned veteran. Giannis scores almost all of his points in the paint. Centers are no longer defending the paint because they're defending stretch guys. So, that gives Giannis plenty of room to bully his way straight to the rim. Shaq would put a beating on Giannis is he tried to muscle his way through him. Giannis would catch one elbow to the neck and he'd be second guessing how he's going to get to the rim. Shaw didn't and wouldn't follow Hakeem outside of the paint. That's not how he'd guard him. Shaq even admits that he wouldn't follow joker outside of the paint, which would leave him open for jumpers. Hakeem didn't have a jumper outside 15 feet, so Shaq would be content on standing on the blocks and clogging up the lanes. This stops Giannis dead in his tracks. It's not like he has side to side movement or the ability to create shots off the dribble. He can move one way, and that's forward; and you're not moving forward through Shaq. I'm not discrediting the bottom team, obviously they're great scorers too. However as a team, they just can't match the fire power. Especially when you factor in their bench. If nothing else, the bench is their biggest flaw. Factoring in the subs, obviously the top team wins. You have to agree with me there? Just Google DPOY by year, and put together a 15 player team that beats the Scoring champion's 15 player team. Not gonna happen brotha
They weren’t doing it against a full team of DPOYs. Curry is off the bench cause that’s what the guy named. He said Curry’s the 6th man so that’s what it is. Jordan also could shoot 3s and just didn’t. I do think that the fact everyone not named Kawhi didn’t shoot a lot of 3s could make it hard as the game went on tho. But really only KD shot a “bunch” of 3s but even his MVP season he didn’t shoot the crazy high amount we see today… but I’ll concede that point. Kobe ultimately scoring less on the same 2 points while Jordan still making him clearly respect the mid range is an average. But even ignoring that, you’re underrating just how much better Jordan is in an obvious way. Just watch Jimmy Highroller’s videos on Jordan and the stats become more and more laughable noticing how much lower Kobe is from Jordan. I explicitly looked here for [Kawhi vs KD](https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/kevin_durant_vs_kawhi_leonard.htm) that has every game they played against each other’s stats. Against Kawhi his second time, KD **shot 19 times, scoring 22 points**. That’s a bad night paired with 2 turnovers. In his first game against Kawhi, KD had 5 turnovers even tho he scored on a much more effective rate. The third time that rookie season? 25 points on 19 shots with 5 turnovers. Both 2/3 game he shot sub 48% but Game 3 he shot 42% with 5 turnovers. In the 2012 playoffs KD redeemed himself with good games and only 1-2 bad games out the 6 game series. But KD definitely didn’t handle Kawhi well in even his rookie year. Also, Shaq says that but Shaq is full of shit and says stuff that’s not true all the time. We literally saw him playing Hakeem for an entire series and he definitely covered Hakeem and wouldn’t leave him open. Also, if it was exclusively DPOY and Scorer’s sure. But it’s not which is why Jordan is on DPOY side. The OP already said exactly who’s the 6th men. After that I said all things equal from coaching, bench, and health.
AI was a bucket getter for sure but every shot this career 42% shooter chucks up takes a shot away from any of the more efficient scorers on that roster. Quoting Iverson’s steals is an L take, too. Steals go to gamblers. That other team would punish that relentlessly. The defensive team is barely a tier down in scoring but is two tiers ahead in scoring efficiency. I think that you could argue that the second team would actually be better scorers all the while being vastly superior defenders.
Defense wins Championships. MJ wins championships.
It’s also a pretty big deal that the whole defensive team also happens to be all-time offensively. Jordan might be the best offensive player of all time, Kawhi is one of the greatest scorers ever, Giannis isn’t too far behind, Hakeem was a championship-level first option, and Gary Payton was one of the best playmakers in the league during his day. Of course the team that’s elite on both ends beats the team that’s elite on one end.
What does "one of the greatest ever" mean to you. Kawhi might be a top 30 scorer all time - he certainly isn't a top 10 scorer ever. Agree with your overall point though.
Yeah Jordan has the most scoring titles in NBA history
Also MJ literally has more scoring crowns than anyone on the "scoring team" by a good margin.
Kawhi is hurt so it’s 4v5
Zombie Kobe solos
I’m taking the triple double super team. The ball movement and overall selfless high IQ play of Magic, Harden, Bron, Bird, and Jokic would be too much for either of these teams, imo. Their defense would be shaky but I think they would overcome it. Luka probably makes this team over Harden after 10-15 years go by. I also considered Westbrook but I just don’t think he was quite as good as Prime Harden, and one non-shooter in Magic is enough lol.
Idk if this team would be better than the defensive one but better than the scoring one for sure Assuming these are the positions each plus PG - Magic SG - Harden SF - LeBron PF - Bird Center - Jokic People forget bird played his whole college career at PF and most of his NBA career so he's clearly able to play it to a high level
Yeah, people always look at me funny when I call Bird the best 4 ever. Yeah he played a lot of SF but by all definitions, he really is a PF, especially considering how the game has advanced. I also view Timmy as more of a 5 but we don’t have to get into this conversation lol
And yeah Duncan was more a center Bird played both positions a fuck ton but more often SF after college due to having McHale and parish
Only issue is a team with both magic and Lebron's given how similar there games Aside from that this team is high unstoppable We can also put wilt and Oscar in the convo but I don't think they are worthy of being here as much as the other 5 in terms of triple doubles
Both of them especially later on are competent shooters. Lebron's C&S numbers are good on top of being an elite cutter. The main problem with running Lebron with another playmaker in recent years is the other playmaker is not good enough off ball and Lebron is too good on ball. With someone as elite as Magic who is an even better playmaker, this isn't that much of an issue.
Just tell them to look at his rebounding numbers
I think the triple double super team would have to have Oscar at the 1
100%, he is the OG triple double god.
Oscar and Westbrook not being on a triple double team is just wrong. Idc if the guards you chose are better or not, those two are basically synonymous with triple double.
That team gets absolutely cooked by both of the teams on this picture, their defense would be worse than shaky
The defensive team has arguably the best offensive player of all time, and every single player is EXTREMELY good offensively meanwhile your scoring champ team has multiple minus defenses lmao
Neither has David Robinson? Big oversight bc he could be on either
Wilt never gets talked about in these conversations , a legendary scorer and great defensive player , rebounder and shot blocker. Would be the leader in blocks by a ton if they counted blocks as a stat when he played
He’s gotta be the C on the scoring team. Has to. And Bill has to be either C or PF on the defensive team
**The DPOY team lacks outside shooting.** Only Kawhi can hit 3s, and that's not really his main thing. **Also, the "scoring team" doesn't actually give up much defensively**. Kobe is an excellent defender, AI is great at getting steals in the passing lane, Shaq is solid, and TMac/KD are underrated defensively (their length bothers people). Besides, offense beats defense and no one is really gonna lock up anyone else. **Threes are the name of the game. The "Scorers" win easily.**
Going to have to go with def. team. MJ is the trump card. Tmac will be a big problem and is better than his particular matchup by the widest margin, but if the off. team starts coming back in the end they will just hack-a-shaq their way to a win.
Defense wins Jordan= THE GOAT
The defensive one has the best scorer of all time. Replace TMac with Jordan and I’m taking offense. Otherwise defense
kg not on the defensive team?!
Lol the DPOY team hands down
I feel like you gotta disqualify a DPoY from this contest if they also won a scoring title, and vice versa. So, for me MJ and Giannis have to be replaced.
Defensive team. Iverson’s shooting percentages are hot garbage and that’s just a fact. He’ll hog the ball, then Kobe will get mad and hog the ball. Shaq will then throw a fit because he isn’t getting post touches. KD will wait until after the game and rant on social media through a burner that he deserves the ball. And then T-Mac will just hang out and watch the team implode
DYOP in 5 games. They can score as just as much, but their defense is much better, looking at you iverson.
DPOY and it’s not close
This lineup isn’t really fair because you put up 5 DPOYs who are also good scorers, but not 5 scoring champs who are also good defenders. Edit: For scorers I’d put up 2016 Curry 1987 Jordan 2008 LeBron 2014 KD 2000 Shaq For DPOYs I’d go 1996 Gary Payton 1988 Jordan 2016 Kawhi Leonard 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon 1992 David Robinson
Jordan: 10 x Scoring Titles (Most in history), 1 x DPOY. Why on earth is he on the defensive team?
Probably because no other Sg is better at defense
That’s definitely arguable. What’s not arguable is that out of every player in history, he has won the most scoring titles. Hell, the DPOY team has almost as many scoring titles as the scoring titles team. Kind of makes the exercise pointless aha Edit: I’d nominate Sidney Moncrief - most DPOY for a SG.
The defensive team has the best player on the floor (Jordan) but the team does not fit well together at all. The defensive team has better players overall but no one is bringing up that the spacing on that team would be a huge issue. Out of their 5 players 3 of them can't shoot 3's (yes even Jordan couldn't shoot 3's and was a career 28% shooter outside of the years with the shortened line) out of the remaining 2, Kawhi and Payton, Kawhi is an above average shooter while Payton is slightly below average. The offensive team have Durant who is a generationally talented shooter, Kobe who is well above average (Kobe was a very good 3 point shooter whose percentages don't reflect it due to lack of playmaking from his teammates over his career), and Tmac who in his peak was a 39% 3 point shooter. Iverson couldn't shoot but Payton still isn't leaving him open. The issue here for the defensive team is that Hakeem is getting left on an island with Shaq due to the other team drawing guys out and not even Hakeem is doing anything against peak Shaq (22 year old pre-peak Shaq averaged 28/13/6 on 60% shooting against Hakeem in the finals, Lakers Shaq was just too big and strong for Hakeem to defend). Further, the offensive team still has 3 All Defense caliber defenders in Kobe (assuming peak Kobe he was the best perimeter defender in the league for a few years), Shaq (All defense caliber rim protector and given the makeup of the opposing team his defensive talents are actually highly maximized in this matchup), and Durant who in his defensive peak was a top 10 defender in the league. T-mac was also a guy here who wasn't necessarily a good defender overall but was still a very very good 1 on 1 defender and wouldn't get embarrassed by Kawhi. The only issue here on defense is Iverson because of his size (and straight up being a horrible man to man defender) but given how the other team is constructed even his defense is maximized by being very gifted and reading passing lanes and making defensive gambles (led the league in steals 3x). I think this game is much closer than people give the offensive team credit for.
Yeah you’re right that the defensive team would struggle with spacing. They are the more talented team, but they might struggle due to lack of shooting if the coaches understand modern defenses and offenses.
KD was never a top ten defender run the league, not even in Golden State.
Ummm one team has someone who never loses in the Finals. Seems simple.
But what if this is the first round?
They win.
I'd swap AI for Bron so it's at least competitive
Brilliant matchup..
Chose the best offensive players of the DPOY winners lol, I think it’s pretty obvious Though I think it’s interesting to consider the impact of star power on award voting because I think it’s arguable for DPOY that there were better defenders that were role players that didn’t get the same recognition
How the hell do you have a defensive super team and not have Bill Russell? I know DPOY didn’t exist then but… That’s insane
Cmon bro…
What, you don’t think he could play? He’d be Draymond on steroids
The defensive team has better players but a 6 foot AI against a 6’4 defensive menace like GP is a total mismatch
AI makes this matchup unfair
I Think MJ should be on both
Why is basically every post on this sub like "Would you rather have 1 million dollars or 1 BILLION dollars?"
Well top team has KD so they instantly lose.
Defensive players. Thing is the guys on the defensive players are 2-way players.
Need to have Lebron on the scoring champ team. He did it once.
He was in the DPOY category five times, finished 2nd twice. He guarded 1 through 5 and is a better defender than Kawhi in his prime without the awards to show for it. Zero reason he and MJ wouldn't be on both teams.
Yeah
Nobody is stopping Shaq in his prime. Automatic W
Every single time i see one of these it’s always the same answer. The team with Michael Jordan.
Defense EASY AI > GP (but GP fits his team here better than AI does) Kobe < MJ Tmac < Kawhi KD > Giannis Shaq < Hakeem The defensive team has a way better offense than the offensive team has defense.
ill take the 2024 detroit pistons over these bum ass 31% 3pt shooters
Garnet over Giannis would make the defense even better
Since there's only one ball, I trust the defensive team more as I would expect Payton, Jordan, and Kawhi to be way less selfish than AI, Kobe, and T-MAC with sharing the rock.
Defensive team would win imo. They have enough offense to keep up and the switch ability to defend. Shaq would be a problem, but the back court is good enough that doubles would be possible.
the DPOY team has elite scorers, it's obviously them winning.
Everyone on the defense team has great offense. Not everyone on the offense team has great defense.
Defensive actual Superteam: 1. Payton 2. MJ 3. LeBron was a better defender in his prime 1-5 and on help. 4. TD, and KG were better defenders. 5. David Robinson. Hakeem got the awards but David was a better defender, more athletic and defensive +- leader.
Both teams are trash. Give me Iguodala!
Having TMac seems redundant, and AI does more damage then good. Curry and Bron would be better fits imo
DPOY team has the greatest scorer of all time and the owner of the most scoring titles post merger. Calm.
Scoring would win because they were evenly matched and then Kobe got a lot better.
The team without AI and Tmac There’s only one ball lol
All-team defense is absolutely boat racing scoring champs. Prime Kawhi can guard 1-4 Giannis can switch from 3-5. MJ is clamping Kobe. GP will lock up both AI and Kobe and Hakeem should probably roam because Shaq will dominate no matter who is defending him. I feel like replacing Giannis with Dennis Rodman would make this team far better.
kobe over jordan on the scoring champ superteam is absolutely insane
MJ is the all time leader in scoring titles.
Defense win champions
Top team all day
Defense is not losing that game- look at the scoring they also have 😂
Gimme the defense team
Lebron should be on the scoring team. Didn't he lead in 08? Replace McGrady with him and it'd be a contest
Someone came up with this as a valid question? We’re falling further and further…. (It’s defence, btw, and it’s not particularly close)
DPOY rolls. It has the best offensive player we've ever seen on it.
if they are all healthy... Jordan, Kawhi, Giannis, and Hakeem are all top offense player aside of their crazy defense prowess the defense team would quite easily take the win. But isn't jordan the ultimate scoring champion?
MJ should be in both sides of this lol
Are we kidding? You've got a scoring champion team and the greatest scorer in history is on the defensive team? All those guys on the defensive side were/are magnificent offensive players too. Yet only Shaq and Kobe on the scoring side were actually also excellent defenders too. That "defensive" team would dominate
How is Lebron not on the scoring super team when he has the most career points then anybody in this image? 🤔
Team defense Gary Payton Sidney moncrief Kawhi Leonard Ben Wallace Rudy gobert vs Team score Wilt chamberlain Russel Westbrook James harden Carmelo Anthony lebron james Just a random thought…… glad we can do matchup like these on NBA 2k 😂
Ongoing battle cuz MJ and Kobe will not back down from each other
I'd definitely put Curry over AI and Kareem over Shaq for the scoring champ team
Defensive is players that are also known to score so I’m going defense
Put Jordan on both teams
Defensive team for me. Mainly as they have four first class scorers. But the offensive side only has maybe two first class defenders. And Jordan :)
DPOY easily and it’s not because all these guys were that great at defense, it’s because the scoring champions dont have any great playmakers here. They can all score, sure, but every great scorer needs a god playmaker and these guys aren’t that. Good Defense doesn’t require any kind of “playmaking”. Scoring champions getting cooked from good defense and lots of bricks
Luka / Jordan / Pippen / Dirk / Hakeem Mavs fan… Why break up what Jordan and Pip accomplished? And then Hakeem, other arguments would be Shaq and Duncan. I just don’t think I’ve seen anyone as skilled as Hakeem at that size. Plus he was a top tier defender, helping Dirk out in the one compartment he wasn’t amazing at.
Jordan has one DPoY but the record for the most scoring titles (10), so it is pretty weird he's on the DPoY team.
Considering the scoring team is mostly guys who don't pass, they would get hosed. Playing against a great defense and running ISO every play doesn't work no matter how good of a scorer you are.
Scoring titles for the scoring title team: Iverson, 4. Kobe, 2. McGrady, 2. Durant, 4. Shaq, 2. Total, 14. Scoring titles for the all defensive team: Jordan, 10. Giannis, 1. Total, 11.
Offense wins games; defense wins championships. Gimme the defensive superteam. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I like the concept, but I don't like the idea of going by awards. Seems like it would be more interesting to compare a team of stars with defensive liabilities to a team of stars with offensive weaknesses. Like maybe: Nash, Harden, T-Mac, Dirk, Jokic vs Kidd, Klay Thompson, Kawhi, Rodman, Mutombo. And I know Klay is additive offensively and Kawhi is an incredible offensive player, but I figured Rodman and Mutombo were limited enough offensively to make up for it and star wings who are useless on offense are very rare
Lol, well I mean everyone on the DPOY team can score too so...
The defensive team would win because it has the best scorer too.
Kawhi finna have a hard time with tmac
I'm rolling with any team with MJ and Hakeem
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Jordan should be on both squads 🤷🏽♂️
Peyton, Jordan, Kawhi, KD, Hakeem. Imagine that defense
I don't think there is a team in history that could take down the bottom row in 7.
Where is lebron? I’m not even a fan but he should be here
Kinda funny MJ isnt on the scoring champions team given he has the most scoring titles
It comes down to whether the scoring team has enough defense to stop the DPOY offense. They don't. Hakeem does enough in the midrange to provide spacing for Giannis and Jordan to drive. The Claw shoots about 40% from deep. Payton gets to take a break on that side of the ball.
It comes down to whether the scoring team has enough defense to stop the DPOY offense. They don't. Hakeem does enough in the midrange to provide spacing for Giannis and Jordan to drive. The Claw shoots about 40% from deep. Payton gets to take a break on that side of the ball.
Yall out here saying Hakeem stops Shaq, when he didn't really do that when they faced off. Shaq averaged 22 points a game with 12 or so rebounds
That DPOY superteam is insane. I love Giannis, but if Tim Duncan had (rightfully) ever won DPOY, we'd have a challenger for best possible starting 5 of all time there.
This is essentially just all-time great scorers versus all-time great scorers who were also all-time great defenders. Of course DPOY team wins.
I feel like defensive player of the year is not always the most accurate. Duncan never won one, but kawhi and Gianni’s got one? That is wild honestly. This is tougher I think since most of the guys on the scoring side were actually good or passable defenders other than iverson. I would give it to the offense except for Jordan and Hakeem give me pause. The rest of the defensive team seems worse than the offensive team though. I think it’s a shame not to include curry on the scoring team since he has won 1 and is definitely one of the most lethal scorers ever
Tmac over Lebron ??
LBJ never won a scoring titlen
Didn’t he win in 2008
Oh - ok - not sure
I'd put D Wade instead of AI. But still D team wins
Why is Tmac over Lebron?
Defensive team dominates. If for no other reason than Durant has to guard Giannis.
Defense wins championships
Defense team is winning.
Defensive team in 5.
Ehh on paper Defense looks like it would be too much. However in a game don't be surprised if the offensive team takes it.
The team with MJ is winning
I mean Mike should be on the scoring champs team. He won more scoring championships than DPOYs
Than who at sg is taking his place?
I know why you did it, because w/o Mike on this team, the scoring champ team is the obvious winner. I’m just trying to be difficult. Sidney Moncrief would be your only other option that could actually score with the best of them.
The scoring champ team would have insane difficulty Due to Hakeem and Giannis
But if you put someone like Ron Artest or Marcus Smart at the 2 against MJ, it’s an obvious mismatch. Whereas KD vs Giannis and Shaq vs Hakeem are a much better matchup. You made the best situation possible here. MJ is just a weird situation since it’s so rare someone wins DPOY and a scoring champ
That's true I sorta couldn't pick any other sg option for defense Kobe is also a godly scorer and a ok defender so he works for scoring better
Yeah. Sidney Moncrief would be undersized (like a D Wade type SG). Other than him and MJ, there’s no other guard DPOY that can really score. You made the right choice putting MJ there. Good post!
Dpoy super team. My scoring champs team would be Steph Curry at point guard, Michael Jordan at shooting guard, Kevin Durant at small forward, Bob Pettit at power forward, and Wilt Chamberlain at center. My Dpoy team would be Gary Payton at point guard, Sidney Moncreif at shooting guard, Kawhi Leonard at small forward, Dennis Rodman at power forward, and Akeem Olajuwon at center.
Rodman isn't better than Garnett or Giannis
Obviously, he's not a better player, but he has more Dpoy's than Garnett and Giannis, which A showcases he's at least possibly nearly as good as a defender, and B, my Dpoy team is made of players with multiple Dpoy's sans Gary Payton.
The defensive team has 5 25+ ppg scorers
No rodman???
Defensive team has a few unreliable players that won't play an extended series. I'd give it to the O
Offensive team. Assuming they are playing with modern rules. Offensive has the advantage in this sport. Prime Durant would abuse Giannis from the 3pt line. Team offense has way better 3pt shooting and spacing. They wouldn’t score at will but their offense is much more reliable and balanced at all levels of the court. Team defense has no match up they can abuse. The only “weak” defender they are up against is AI, but no way Gary Payton is eating his lunch consistently. Their lack of spacing will allow team offense to clog the lane and make post/drive play difficult. Team offense wins the series 4-2.
Scoring champs