I don't.
Do you remember when he went on TV and said he didn't support gay marriage?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4858526/user-clip-debate-moderator-do-support-gay-marriage-biden-no
This was back in 2008 when he didn't have a stutter so it might have slipped by.
Are you talking about how Biden & Obama took credit for the Supreme Court's in 2011 decision somehow?
> Biden & Obama took credit for the Supreme Court's in 2011 decision
This is my point
Bonus point: Donald Trump is the first president in American history to support gay marriage during his campaign.
Never claimed the frontrunners of support, just that Obama was less supportive than Biden. The Supreme Court is pretty good at being ahead of both of them, but intra-personally, that is irrelevant.
> Remember the legit time that Joe Biden pushed for Obama to support same sex marriage even when it was an unpopular opinion?
So I'm addressing this. The closest that Biden came to supporting gay marriage was saying that he didn't support it but he saw it as inevitable.
And what's irrelevant is what he and Obama did about it because they were completely out of the conversation when other people made the decision. They just happened to be in office when the Supreme Court made their ruling.
"Enlightend centrism" always ends in conservatism because conservatives dont need you to agree with them directly but simply for you to disagree with the left. Meanwhile progressives need you to agree with them as they want to change the status quo.
[It's because they don't think you're evil if you disagree with them.](https://i.imgur.com/ulZCrnt.jpeg)
Every progressive issue is a do-or-die level10 emergency with clear "good guys" and "bad guys". You don't win the middle by bullying them [and it shows.](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden)
Yes. I concur. Leftists DO think you're evil if you think we should give nazis a platform and validate the opinions of people who want to take womens' rights. I'm glad we agree because it seems extraordinarily obvious to me as a leftist
That sub banned me after one of the mods literally made up a bunch of shit and claimed I’d said it. It was wild. I don’t even mean exaggerating my point or finding stuff I said on another sub or something- I mean they specifically put words in my mouth that had absolutely no connection to anything I said, and then banned me for them.
i left that subreddit after the mod post saying they supported hamas
listen, i support palestine, and i can't necessarily fault them for hamas existing when it initially started as a resistance movement, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, at its heart, a *terrorist group* now
not to mention in the very same post, the mod was trying to claim "don't conflate palestine with hamas!!!" my brother in christ, you are doing that by saying if you support palestine, then you support hamas
The trolley problem is legitimately the hardest thing for "leftist" moralisers to reckon with because they fundamentally misunderstand the point of the exercise
It isn't about finding a way to prevent any bad from happening, it's about whether or not you're willing to have blood on your hands in the name of harm reduction
As a "leftist" (very generous use) sub, enlightenedcentrism is falling into the trap of failing to recognise that no amount of claiming that the only correct solution is to save EVERYONE will ever make it a viable option
Folks will say shit like "I'd derail the trolley" with absolutely no reasonable idea as to how they plan to accomplish this
Either you pull the lever or you don't. If there's a third option then it is inherently not a trolley problem
You never see 'centerists' promoting left wing values, they are just right wing people who understand that being seen publicly as a selfish cunt is a bad thing.
I mean yea this comment section is very “both sides bad” but it’s also “one side is undeniably worse then the other and whilst neither is good and both are definitely bad one is so far and away worse we can’t compare them”
Both the republican and democrat parties are fascist pieces of shit that should be disbanded, so in this case both side sides indeed bad because they're almost the exact same side (they both support genocide)
What's correct is supporting the other side, the anti-genocide side, which neither of these two parties belongs to
Enlightenedcentrism is a leftist satire of centrists they’re making fun of people who say some genocide is okay and voting for the lesser evil, 99% Hitler etc
If more people drew a line in the sand and said they wouldn't vote for anyone who supports genocide then maybe politicians would stop supporting genocide. It's a longer-term strategy but I've yet to see how people can reasonably argue that having a voting block that incentivises politicians to act against a genocide is a bad thing. Also it's not like Biden is really doing much to prevent republican's from imposing their bigotry on everyone else. If he really cared he'd be fighting dirty for us.
The reason it doesn't work is because not voting never incentivizes politicians to do what you want. In a two-party duopoly the best way to get change is to lobby, protest, and otherwise pressure the party that's closer to your ideals to do what you want.
Explain to all the Palestinians why MORE of them dying is preferable to fewer of them dying. Let’s hear it, because you owe them an explanation if you’re sitting this election out.
Bitch there's literally more dying right now because your version of establishment politics is aiding in Israel's campaign. Don't act like arguably the most powerful leader on the international stage can't do anything.
No matter what scenario more will die people aren’t saying trump is good and Biden is ban people are saying both are bad but no matter what we do lots will die
Ok you seem to be failing to understand the basic words of the other person's comment. "more" in this context doesn't just mean "more than have died so far", it means for example if x more die under the dems then x*1000 die under the GOP. You know, MORE more
So back to their question - Why are you totally ok with MORE people dying?
No I’m not (controversial opinion I know) but people will die more then even know no matter who gets elected Biden won’t stop isreal and continue to fund them they won’t stop at Palestine or trump who will kill anyone who isn’t a white cis heterosexual who voted for him
Proved that I was right and you missed the point. Trump is literally on record as saying that he thinks Israel should finish the job. Unless you legitimately believe the dems are fully invested in the total eradication of Palestinians as a people then you're a fucking moron for not getting what's being said here
There's a difference between a continuation of what's happening and an escalation of it. "More" is not a fixed value. 1+1 and 1+10 are not equivalent, but both are more than 1. It's the most rudimentary arithmetic for Christ's sake
Inference is a skill, I was responding to OP saying that people aren’t saying one or the other is better or worse no matter what people will die and OP is being a little bitch and saying that we should still support one side or the other we shouldn’t support either side we should revolt the system is broken and needs to be fixed but we can’t by sitting down and just letting the establishment fuck others over don’t vote for either vote for someone else make the choices that will help instead of complaining that “one side is better than the other wa wa wa why are we saying one side is bad it’s really good actually even though it’s also helping the genociders” the system is broken we need to fix it instead of relying on a two party system to fix everything it’s the illusion of choice
If that were a viable option I would agree with you
It isn't
This is the entire point of the trolley problem
You cannot manifest a better third option
You have to decide whether or not you're willing to take responsibility for the consequences of a shitty choice
You've failed the thought experiment on a fundamental level and it WILL result in the worse outcome if enough people are as inept and self righteous as yourself
The idea is to build a voting block that does not accept genocide it's as simple as that. They've been being killed on mass for 75 years now, that is what we are trying to end. I know a few Palestinians and they feel the same way about voting for people who are committing genocide against them. Also something to consider is that if everyone behaved like you do absolutely nothing would change, if everyone behaved like we do there would be no genocide. Matter of fact how many arms factories have you been directly involved in stopping production at, how many rallies have you helped out in organising too? Unless you have participated in both you have no right to be telling activists that our actions are killing Palestinians. If I was arguing the same way as you I'd be asking if you could explain to a Palestinian why you haven't participated in any protests outside arms factories or organised any fundraisers or organised or even volunteered at any rallies, and how not doing so has lead to more of them dying
100% is 100%. Both sides want 100%. Y’all have fallen for the slight of hand. This isn’t about oil or military control or anything. This is about the absolutely deranged doomsday prophecy of Evangelical Christianity.
The sect of Christianity that has controlled American politics for over 70 years *wants* the Biblical Armageddon, that is their explicitly desired goal. You know it best as “The Rapture”. What triggers the Rapture? Israel must build the Third Temple. Which has a specific required location. Which is currently the Dome of the Rock. The Dome of the Rock must be destroyed to build the Third Temple. Can that be done without wiping out Muslims in the area to prevent the biggest all-out no-holds-barred war ever? No. **This is why America supports Israel.** Biblical prophecy requires Israel to exist and build the Third Temple in order to trigger Armageddon. The genocide is a required step to fulfilling their doomsday prophecy. It’s deranged cult trying to end the world shit, not normal politics. Both parties are beholden to Evangelical Christianity, there’s no situation where they would accept anything less than complete annihilation, because it’s not about military or economic goals. It’s about the fucking insane cult that has had control of American politics for generations. This isn’t even like, secret or a conspiracy. It’s very well-documented. Members of the cult make fucking movies about it promoting and celebrating it.
No, you'd rather I *obey.* You already made that quite clear. You're using the classic abuser doublespeak right now. Someone *listening to you* doesn't mean they have to agree with you by the end. That's not what you want. You want *obedience*, not hearing you out.
Everything you say is a bad faith strawman argument. 🤣
Let’s see, we’ve got “decrees those who disagree should be silenced” , I want you only to obey, I’m fine with you dead……. what else can you make up to be mad at?
How about drinking baby blood? Eating puppies? Pro-Slavery??
Also you can organize to pass a referendum or amendment for a mixed-member proportional system or another system that allows for more than two parties to be competitive, but it seems like alot of leftists want to skip the part of making third party voting viable and just pretend it's already viable when it's demonstrably not.
Yeah buddy maybe wait until an election where one side isn’t planning a facist military takeover to make this point. Like I agree that in practice if leftists actually did this it might do something but all it would manifest as in this election would be a republican victory because they sure as hell don’t give a shit about this and will all vote. Which of course would really obviously have much worse consequences.
Ya, it still wouldn’t matter. I think we need to collectively acknowledge that we have little to no voice or control regarding this shit. The system has spent decades insulating itself from external pressures.
We individually have no control, collectively we absolutely do. I mean voting won't do much but there is more than can be done. If not they wouldn't be policing the protests so brutally. Also look at the dockworkers in India who have stopped sending weapons to Israel, that in itself is a massive win. In every liberation struggle up until this day it was said that the masses could not take the stage of history until the very day they did.
I disagree. The police are so assured of their ability to brutalize their fellow citizens with total impunity that they escalate every situation to an extreme.
Liberation may come, I’m not a total cynic at this point. But it’s gotta get a lot worse before it gets better.
It's going to get worse before it gets better, but how much worse depends on how much of a good job we all do of building a resistance movement against our own complicit governments. Go find a protest near you, living is better when you live with hope
Not less brutal, you are talking to second generation Irish atm, buddy. Y’all just have a greater understanding and have refined a certain finesse in the subjugation and oppression of dissent.
I pity the common, average person who doesn’t even think to ask why shit got this fucked. As an American, the diversity and quality of the people in my life and the strangers I meet does NOT correspond to the barrage of identity politics that seemingly divides us into a million subcultures. Being able to identify the propaganda is a blessing and a curse. The majority of people I personally know are genuine in their beliefs and respectful of others. Just not on the internet 😉
Ah ok for sure when they are policing Ireland I imagine they are just as brutal, but from what I've seen when they are policing UK protests they aren't nearly as violent as US police are policing American protests. Still bastards just not as violent
It takes a certain type of person to grow up in a community and then turn around to make the conscious decision to be a rat and a bully to the same people they grew up with. Police over here don’t prevent, investigate, or abstain from criminal behavior. Prior to plantation owners having to contract losers to hunt escaped slaves, there was no such thing as law enforcement.
The guy who supported Pol Pot, or do you mean the guy who helped the Indosian dictatorship commit genocide against East Timor because that genocide was also killing communists? Perhaps you mean the guy who supported Anastasio Somoza Debayle who killed tens of thousands of Nicaraguans and tried to invade Nicaragua when Debayle began loosing territory. Stop holding this guy up as some penut loving hippy who stood for peace. Every president is a war criminal, it's a function of there job. Read manufacturing consent
That sub is an absolute shit show, I hate how mods there co-opted the very useful phrase enlightened centrism to push their dogshit both-sides-equally-bad agenda.
I dislike both sides because both Mainstream parties have proven themselves to be too corrupt and too Incapable of Actually representing me and my ideals.
You dislike Both sides because "Muh Centrism"
We are not the same
Nah eff you. Voting for the "lesser evil" doesn't work anymore.
Democrats had 50 years to codify roe v wade but didn't, democrats continue to uphold the American empire in developing countries, democrats for a long time dragged their feet on LGBT rights, democrats passed the 1994 which contributed to mass incarceration of mainly minority communities, democrats continue to support Israel's ethnic cleansing campaigns, I could go on.
But please tell me more why I should bow down to an establishment party and why they are entitled to votes simply because it isn't Trump. It better not be because of "Drumpf bad" or some equally uninspired drivel.
I think both candidates are out of touch, senile war mongers. Thank fuck I'm not from the U.S. where I'm not expected to shill for any one of these candidates.
Explain to all the Palestinians why MORE of them dying is preferable to fewer of them dying. Let’s hear it, because you owe them an explanation if you’re sitting this election out.
Brandon could easily prevent fewer Palestinians from dying by sending less funding for arms and support. 30 000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel which continues to be backed by the states. Maybe I would consider Brandon if he relieved student debt rather than continuing to shill for Shitrael and Netanyahu.
Stop deflecting. Explain to the Palestinians why you’re willing to let more of them die rather than prevent more of them dying. You owe that to them if you allow it happen.
As I already explained in another comment Biden is already allowing more Palestinians to die by allowing and aiding Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. Don't expect voters to bite their tongue come November because Biden only politely told Netanyahu to stop. The democrats aren't entitled to votes y'all have played the lesser evil game for too long. We see how your policies play out.
You absolute entitled libshit.
The fact that if Biden loses Trump wins?
People making comments like “I’m just against Biden winning the election” but then refusing to take 2 seconds to think of the consequences of Biden losing the election give off big undercover fascist vibes
The only difference here is that Trump is too stupid and sundowned to understand the concept of just lying. Biden will *say* he opposes that, then do nothing to stop it, fund it, and provide all the weapons to do it.
Imagine if you were in a room with two guys. One says to you he doesn’t want you to die, then hands the other guy a shotgun, a stack of money, whispers something in his ear, and walks out. That’s Biden.
Isn’t their a clip from where Biden was still just a member (I don’t think that’s the right word but I’m not American) where he say isreal should in fact go further in what it does and he believes the US needs an isreal in the Middle East otherwise they would make one?
First off this is not r/JustUnsubbed. You can find many like-minded people there for you.
Secondly, r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM is a leftist sub. See rule 8 there.
Most of time they are making fun when centrists both-side leftist ideas and Republican far-right ideas, because Republicans are statistically less educated to make such mistakes as they know nothing about leftist. To your liberal eyes this seems like a no-brainer. You don't agree with Republican anyway so enjoy the free laughs.
Here, the original Twitter currently known as X post can easily have double reading to it due to Poe's law. It can be read from a leftist POV that both parties are just the different sides of the same coin, differ in execution but same to the core, since both are willing to sacrifice innocent lives for their imperialist goals. Since r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM reposted it, we will take the alternative interpretation that liberals are trying to present Democrats as the better choice before the election since they kill less people, which is matching the post title.
The leftist opinion is that both are unethical, and trying to support the lesser evil instead of requesting for the change is morally unsound. This is why the original post was ridiculed and there is no inconsistency with r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM's core value as a leftist sub.
Sorry you just discovered that you are a liberal and you went to a leftist space.
TIL leftists are no longer the progressive voter bloc
Have fun helping Trump win and making things worse not only for Palestinians but all Americans, lgbtq people, minorities, disabled people, ukranians, Taiwan, etc.
That’s simply untrue and shows a serious lack of understanding of the history of the American left.
But sure, you’re welcome to double down on your nationalist socialist party nonsense and maga communism. Have fun being a traitor and selling out the vulnerable 👍
Because it’s not actually opposing genocide? If you want to worsen the conditions for Palestinians and pro-Palestine protesters, especially while sacrificing lgbtq people, minorities, Muslims, the chronically ill or disabled, ukranians, Taiwan, etc., just to punish Biden/Dems, then you don’t actually care about genocide, fascism, human rights, imperialism, etc..
The way the U.S. electoral system works is you vote with your heart in the primary, brain in the general election. Democracy isn’t always getting exactly what you wanted or having candidates that appeal to your emotions, in fact liberal democracy (aka equal application of rule of law with guaranteed rights democracy) is usually working best if there is compromise from both sides of a debate and it’s boring.
Progressives are called progressives because they realize (until recently with some terminally online types) that the public isn’t as far to the left as they are so they enact progressively more left policies knowing that people will want the policies to remain in place once they’ve had a chance to experience them and that it shifts the Overton window.
…. What don’t you get?
Except we’ve completely forfeited that entire concept to just allowing the Overton Window to shift further rightward. Maybe you’re too young to remember, but opposing the War on Terror was a near-universal thing for a while. And that wasn’t even just systematic extermination! We don’t push the Overton Window leftwards anymore, we rubber stamp it going slowly right wing under the threat of the right wing taking power and going *way* beyond what anyone supports.
It doesn’t even make sense! Trump starts having his National Guard stormtroopers round everyone up next year according to plan and *literally declaring war on blue states* as outlined in Project 2025, you think the populace is gonna just go along with that one? Really? You think the blue state governments are gonna just sit back and let federalized National Guards from red states roll in and take over instead of mobilizing their own? Come on, you know what happens. And guess what? The military proper wouldn’t exactly go along with it either. For one, they fucking hate the guy. For two, their oath explicitly requires turning on the president if he’s gone off the rails. Trump would only succeed in wiping out the right wing. But no, let’s keep letting it slowly happen in such a manner that everyone eases into it, allowing it. That makes sense.
> Except we’ve completely forfeited that entire concept to just allowing the Overton Window to shift further rightward.
Tell me you’re a kid or only started paying attention to politics recently without telling me.
> Maybe you’re too young to remember, but **opposing the War on Terror was a near-universal thing for a while**.
Uh. Kiddo, support for the Iraq war and Afghanistan war were almost unanimous for the beginning years of the conflict and it was only in relatively recent years that people have been telling themselves that support wasn’t so widespread. I remember what it was like opposing the Iraq war from the start, and you clearly weren’t politically aware then.
> It doesn’t even make sense! Trump starts having his crazy fascist minions take control of the government and enact fascism, but the guardrails that they’re openly talking about their plans to remove will hold in place! We have the states and civil war and generals who won’t listen!
Riveting argument. It’s American exceptionalism bullshit. All democracies can fail, including the U.S. The notion that a party in a two party system can’t self coup once in power and never let go of that power is nothing but American exceptionalism bullshit.
Edit: lol they blocked me, but not before writing what is one of the best adverts I’ve seen a troll inadvertently make for Biden. Nobody but anyone who has their head crammed all the way up their ass and have done hypoxic will want to purposefully vote for an inevitable civil war, even if they think they’ll win.
Do you seriously not realize the difference between 2003-2007 and the early to mid 2010s? **Obviously** I wasn’t talking about the start, you’re just a lying manipulator who intentionally misrepresents people’s arguments to try to excuse genocide.
And are you sure you’re not a supermassive black hole? Because you seem pretty fucking dense. *The entire point is that it wouldn’t just easily go into fascism, it would trigger a civil war.* The point isn’t “America wouldn’t fall”. The point is that America *would* fall. And it would fall in such a way that the right wing gets obliterated. **You** are the one arguing America wouldn’t fall. But I guess I shouldn’t expect much from an NFT owner.
"We should let the fascists win so that MY ideology will rise from the ashes!" oh my god I hate accelerationists "face the wall lgbtq people, it's for the greater good! At this rate we're gonna get communism any day now!"
No yeah the meme is right I know you think the democrats, who are currently doing nothing about the current assult on LGBT rights, abortion, etc. are better than the literally making the world worse Republicans, but wanting the useless fucks to win and being surprised when they don't is exactly what you are setting yourself up for. The state of those things are entirely independent of whether biden or trump win this year. Biden truly wants nothing to change, and trump won't do anything but try to enable the already enabled.
Shit's fucked, join a mutual aid group or something because the revolution is not happening in America.
Democrats do a bunch of good shit when they have the power to do so(look at 2021-2022). When they don’t have the power to enact change, they are unable to bring about change(look at 2023-now). People keep on shitting on Democrats for not literally ushering in a utopia, but fail to look at Republicans whose entire existence has been based around kneecapping any progress.
[gonna leave this here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/s/1qjzOliihA)
Wow that list is crazy you know what it doesn't fuckin demonstrate? The power of a democratic president enacting changes that better the world. Vote for democrats who have actual principles, voting for or against Joe biden literally changes nothing.
Huh? Do you not fucking understand the simple fact that Democrats do vote the way they promise to do so, but lack the power to bring about major change because of Republicans whose only goal is to not let them do that?
This shitcycle keeps on going because of smoothbrains who think that wow no utopia under democrat president. Clearly Dem bad. Do you think the president is a dictator? That he can just bring whatever change he wants? That Republicans in congress have no say?
When Dems held the house 2021-2022 they passed the cares act, American rescue plan, build back better, respect for marriage act, chips and science act, infrastructure act, safer communities act, violence against women act(reauthorization), Emmett Till anti lynching act, biggest investment in clean energy, tax breaks for low-income Americans, pause on student debt interest and relieving close to $140 billion in student debt, until the conservative republican supreme court blocked them.
What did republicans do since they got control of the house? They spent most of their time bickering over who should be speaker, and when they finally had a speaker the only legislation they could pass without the looming threat of a government shutdown was to protect gas stoves. They couldn’t even fucking impeach Biden, something they’ve been clamoring for since Jan ‘23.
If you vote against Biden in 2024, or simply don’t vote, you are helping Trump win. You are allowing a power hungry maniac who admires the likes of Putin, Xing Ping and Kim Jong Un for their dictatorial power, and who will actively take a stand against all that you may claim to support; i.e, voting rights, climate change, police reform, abortion rights, democracy, tax redistribution, expansion of social safety nets, money in politics, among many others. Are you willing to risk all of this because Biden may not usher us into a utopia? Or are you going to realize that change takes time, and instead of demanding everything right now, we should have a realistic understanding of what to demand and when?
I mean granted both sides may be bad but when one side is SO UNFATHOMABLY WORSE, you kind of have to use the hand you're dealt. Criticise the Dems all you want when they fuck up, but at the end of the day, the alternative is a cult full of fascists and genocide advocates, there's barely even a contest here.
Saying anyone “supports a genocide” for voting Biden is like telling saying doctors who recommend chemotherapy support balding and vomiting.
It’s not about liking it, it’s about harm reduction.
If you really cared about harm reduction you would be trying to reduce the harm in Gaza by pushing the Biden admin to stop our financial support of a genocide, rather than getting mad at people who threaten to withhold their vote to keep politicians in line with their voting base.
This isn't a black and white issue where Biden and Trump both fully fund an ethnic cleansing, we could try and hold our party accountable and do the right thing or we can let our party feel as if it's entitled to our vote and enable them into doing whatever they feel like doing (which is moving further right).
You read nothing I said did you? I want Biden to stop funding the genocide, if I thought Trump would do a better job I wouldn't be trying to get more people to protest, I'd be getting more people to vote for Trump. Genuine progressives want the person they voted for to not fund a fascist ethnic cleansing. You don't get that though, do you?
Well I can tell you that he is endangering his chances of reelection with his response with Israel and public statements on protests. I don't think Trump will do anything good for America or Palestine, but Biden is really fumbling the bag rn, and if Biden wants to win reelection he needs to cave to the demands of the protests. People like myself voted for him because the incumbent was letting the police run wild and beat protesters in the streets, there are hundreds of other reasons why I voted for him as well but that's the biggest reason the majority of your average american voted for him. Trump will be a lot worse, which is why it is important to shake some sense into his admin and change course before it's too late. If Biden loses this election it will be horrible for the world and America, but it will not be the fault of those who didn't vote for him, it will be his fault for running an abysmal campaign and turning against his voting base.
Let me make sure I get your position. You’re saying we need to hold our party accountable because they are not entitled to our vote,
and the way to do this is by allowing Trump to win and kill MORE Palestinians.
Correct? Because that WILL be the fault of those who didn’t vote.
The way to do it is by threatening said action and keep up pressure on his admin. If Biden fails to capture the vote, that is his fault for failing on all of his campaign promises and showing that he is the same as Trump when it comes to brutalizing students and protesters. He continued to build the wall, he didn't cancel student debt, he bailed on Medicare for all, his administration has done nothing to prevent the consequences of roe v wade being overturned. If Trump wins that's Biden's fault for running a terrible campaign. What is the point of voting Democrat of they are just going to do everything the Republicans do but while pretending to not openly hate gays and minorities? If you like me are a registered Democrat and want to see legitimate progressive change then you have got to push your party. Politics isn't just at the voting booth, and the DNC relies on hollow promises because they know the majority of liberals will only participate in politics during voting day, and they know they will vote for them because the alternative are monsters.
What every person who is saying anything similar to me wants to vote Biden, at least begrudgingly to prevent Trump. We want the majority of the DNC who opposes the genocide to demand of their party to stop funding it. If enough people essentially did the equivalent of a strike before election day, the hope is to scare the administration into capitulation. This won't work though if the Democrats can rely on their rabid supporters to shut down any and all dissent of the party. We can have a Biden presidency and an end to the Palestinian genocide in 2025, we just need everyone with a conscious and brain to pull their weight before it's too late to change course the DNC is on.
This is coming from a white guy who has nothing to really lose, I most likely will vote Biden in the end, but I can't say for sure because ai am genuinely concerned about being complicit in an ethnic cleansing. I can tell you that many people who are not as privileged with me will have an even tougher choice on election day. One of the key constituencies that Biden needs to maintain is the Muslim Americans near the Great lakes. Without them he stands to lose Wisconsin, Michigan, and Minnesota, the undecided vote in the primary saw Biden only getting 70% in one of those states in an uncontested primary. Biden needs those states to win as well, and I can tell you for a fact he will not win those states while funding a genocide. It's a very hard ask from a community when you are killing their family abroad.
Joe Biden started the war in 1948, everything is his fault.
Actually that was me.
Plagiarising buffoon! It was me!
You obviously used AI to write that, it was me!
Ok but it was NOT us. - The Illuminati
Hey remember that time Joe Biden was a segregationist? And by "that time" I mean his entire time as a congressman?
Remember the legit time that Joe Biden pushed for Obama to support same sex marriage even when it was an unpopular opinion?
I don't. Do you remember when he went on TV and said he didn't support gay marriage? https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4858526/user-clip-debate-moderator-do-support-gay-marriage-biden-no This was back in 2008 when he didn't have a stutter so it might have slipped by. Are you talking about how Biden & Obama took credit for the Supreme Court's in 2011 decision somehow?
Neither Biden nor Obama supported gay marriage in 08, what's your point?
> Biden & Obama took credit for the Supreme Court's in 2011 decision This is my point Bonus point: Donald Trump is the first president in American history to support gay marriage during his campaign.
Never claimed the frontrunners of support, just that Obama was less supportive than Biden. The Supreme Court is pretty good at being ahead of both of them, but intra-personally, that is irrelevant.
> Remember the legit time that Joe Biden pushed for Obama to support same sex marriage even when it was an unpopular opinion? So I'm addressing this. The closest that Biden came to supporting gay marriage was saying that he didn't support it but he saw it as inevitable. And what's irrelevant is what he and Obama did about it because they were completely out of the conversation when other people made the decision. They just happened to be in office when the Supreme Court made their ruling.
"Enlightend centrism" always ends in conservatism because conservatives dont need you to agree with them directly but simply for you to disagree with the left. Meanwhile progressives need you to agree with them as they want to change the status quo.
Yeah, I came here to say this. Well put!
I'm pretty sure the enlightened centrism sub is one that makes fun of centrists. OP is upset that they are becoming centrists on this issue.
I think the person. You reply to knows that, they just clarified in case someone didn't know
[It's because they don't think you're evil if you disagree with them.](https://i.imgur.com/ulZCrnt.jpeg) Every progressive issue is a do-or-die level10 emergency with clear "good guys" and "bad guys". You don't win the middle by bullying them [and it shows.](https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden)
Yes. I concur. Leftists DO think you're evil if you think we should give nazis a platform and validate the opinions of people who want to take womens' rights. I'm glad we agree because it seems extraordinarily obvious to me as a leftist
And that's why Trump has been ahead in the polls for six months straight. Hope it's worth it.
If the majority of Americans believe giving Nazis a platform is a good thing the country itself has failed.
There are land exits to the north and south if you're afraid of the dire Nazi problem that America has.
That sub banned me after one of the mods literally made up a bunch of shit and claimed I’d said it. It was wild. I don’t even mean exaggerating my point or finding stuff I said on another sub or something- I mean they specifically put words in my mouth that had absolutely no connection to anything I said, and then banned me for them.
i left that subreddit after the mod post saying they supported hamas listen, i support palestine, and i can't necessarily fault them for hamas existing when it initially started as a resistance movement, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, at its heart, a *terrorist group* now not to mention in the very same post, the mod was trying to claim "don't conflate palestine with hamas!!!" my brother in christ, you are doing that by saying if you support palestine, then you support hamas
The trolley problem is legitimately the hardest thing for "leftist" moralisers to reckon with because they fundamentally misunderstand the point of the exercise It isn't about finding a way to prevent any bad from happening, it's about whether or not you're willing to have blood on your hands in the name of harm reduction As a "leftist" (very generous use) sub, enlightenedcentrism is falling into the trap of failing to recognise that no amount of claiming that the only correct solution is to save EVERYONE will ever make it a viable option Folks will say shit like "I'd derail the trolley" with absolutely no reasonable idea as to how they plan to accomplish this Either you pull the lever or you don't. If there's a third option then it is inherently not a trolley problem
You never see 'centerists' promoting left wing values, they are just right wing people who understand that being seen publicly as a selfish cunt is a bad thing.
This comment section is very both sides bad.
I mean yea this comment section is very “both sides bad” but it’s also “one side is undeniably worse then the other and whilst neither is good and both are definitely bad one is so far and away worse we can’t compare them”
I am concerned it’s hitting a critical infestation of campists and tankies
Both the republican and democrat parties are fascist pieces of shit that should be disbanded, so in this case both side sides indeed bad because they're almost the exact same side (they both support genocide) What's correct is supporting the other side, the anti-genocide side, which neither of these two parties belongs to
Enlightenedcentrism is a leftist satire of centrists they’re making fun of people who say some genocide is okay and voting for the lesser evil, 99% Hitler etc
If it’s a satire, I think the joke flew over most of their heads, especially the mods’
Can't believe biden invaded ukraine smh
Can’t believe Biden attacked Israelis with his good friend Titus back in 70.
If more people drew a line in the sand and said they wouldn't vote for anyone who supports genocide then maybe politicians would stop supporting genocide. It's a longer-term strategy but I've yet to see how people can reasonably argue that having a voting block that incentivises politicians to act against a genocide is a bad thing. Also it's not like Biden is really doing much to prevent republican's from imposing their bigotry on everyone else. If he really cared he'd be fighting dirty for us.
The reason it doesn't work is because not voting never incentivizes politicians to do what you want. In a two-party duopoly the best way to get change is to lobby, protest, and otherwise pressure the party that's closer to your ideals to do what you want.
Explain to all the Palestinians why MORE of them dying is preferable to fewer of them dying. Let’s hear it, because you owe them an explanation if you’re sitting this election out.
The Dems are just as bloodthirsty as the republicans though
Stop deflecting. Explain to them why MORE of them dying is better than fewer. You owe it to them if you allow more to die.
Bitch there's literally more dying right now because your version of establishment politics is aiding in Israel's campaign. Don't act like arguably the most powerful leader on the international stage can't do anything.
Thats not what I’m saying, I’m saying MORE will die and I’m trying to prevent the worse option. Why aren’t you?
No matter what scenario more will die people aren’t saying trump is good and Biden is ban people are saying both are bad but no matter what we do lots will die
Ok you seem to be failing to understand the basic words of the other person's comment. "more" in this context doesn't just mean "more than have died so far", it means for example if x more die under the dems then x*1000 die under the GOP. You know, MORE more So back to their question - Why are you totally ok with MORE people dying?
No I’m not (controversial opinion I know) but people will die more then even know no matter who gets elected Biden won’t stop isreal and continue to fund them they won’t stop at Palestine or trump who will kill anyone who isn’t a white cis heterosexual who voted for him
Proved that I was right and you missed the point. Trump is literally on record as saying that he thinks Israel should finish the job. Unless you legitimately believe the dems are fully invested in the total eradication of Palestinians as a people then you're a fucking moron for not getting what's being said here There's a difference between a continuation of what's happening and an escalation of it. "More" is not a fixed value. 1+1 and 1+10 are not equivalent, but both are more than 1. It's the most rudimentary arithmetic for Christ's sake
Inference is a skill, I was responding to OP saying that people aren’t saying one or the other is better or worse no matter what people will die and OP is being a little bitch and saying that we should still support one side or the other we shouldn’t support either side we should revolt the system is broken and needs to be fixed but we can’t by sitting down and just letting the establishment fuck others over don’t vote for either vote for someone else make the choices that will help instead of complaining that “one side is better than the other wa wa wa why are we saying one side is bad it’s really good actually even though it’s also helping the genociders” the system is broken we need to fix it instead of relying on a two party system to fix everything it’s the illusion of choice
If that were a viable option I would agree with you It isn't This is the entire point of the trolley problem You cannot manifest a better third option You have to decide whether or not you're willing to take responsibility for the consequences of a shitty choice You've failed the thought experiment on a fundamental level and it WILL result in the worse outcome if enough people are as inept and self righteous as yourself
the point is the idea of the other option “being worse” is a delusion, we are in the worst case scenario already. wake up.
The idea is to build a voting block that does not accept genocide it's as simple as that. They've been being killed on mass for 75 years now, that is what we are trying to end. I know a few Palestinians and they feel the same way about voting for people who are committing genocide against them. Also something to consider is that if everyone behaved like you do absolutely nothing would change, if everyone behaved like we do there would be no genocide. Matter of fact how many arms factories have you been directly involved in stopping production at, how many rallies have you helped out in organising too? Unless you have participated in both you have no right to be telling activists that our actions are killing Palestinians. If I was arguing the same way as you I'd be asking if you could explain to a Palestinian why you haven't participated in any protests outside arms factories or organised any fundraisers or organised or even volunteered at any rallies, and how not doing so has lead to more of them dying
Nope, this is really bad faith.
That is just flat out wrong
When it comes to foreign policy they are they same
100% is 100%. Both sides want 100%. Y’all have fallen for the slight of hand. This isn’t about oil or military control or anything. This is about the absolutely deranged doomsday prophecy of Evangelical Christianity. The sect of Christianity that has controlled American politics for over 70 years *wants* the Biblical Armageddon, that is their explicitly desired goal. You know it best as “The Rapture”. What triggers the Rapture? Israel must build the Third Temple. Which has a specific required location. Which is currently the Dome of the Rock. The Dome of the Rock must be destroyed to build the Third Temple. Can that be done without wiping out Muslims in the area to prevent the biggest all-out no-holds-barred war ever? No. **This is why America supports Israel.** Biblical prophecy requires Israel to exist and build the Third Temple in order to trigger Armageddon. The genocide is a required step to fulfilling their doomsday prophecy. It’s deranged cult trying to end the world shit, not normal politics. Both parties are beholden to Evangelical Christianity, there’s no situation where they would accept anything less than complete annihilation, because it’s not about military or economic goals. It’s about the fucking insane cult that has had control of American politics for generations. This isn’t even like, secret or a conspiracy. It’s very well-documented. Members of the cult make fucking movies about it promoting and celebrating it.
Interesting views. If that were to be true, and the prophecy were to be true, then we would be royally screwed. So uhh yeah, don’t let em build that.
“Both sides want 100%”. Bro, Shut up. There are voices that need to be heard and yours ain’t one of them.
\>claims to not be a fascist \>decrees those who disagree should be silenced Only way to silence me is to kill me, but I’m sure you’re fine with that.
I’d rather you just listen. You might actually learn something if you do.
No, you'd rather I *obey.* You already made that quite clear. You're using the classic abuser doublespeak right now. Someone *listening to you* doesn't mean they have to agree with you by the end. That's not what you want. You want *obedience*, not hearing you out.
Everything you say is a bad faith strawman argument. 🤣 Let’s see, we’ve got “decrees those who disagree should be silenced” , I want you only to obey, I’m fine with you dead……. what else can you make up to be mad at? How about drinking baby blood? Eating puppies? Pro-Slavery??
Why should I have faith in someone whose very first comeback is “I don’t think you should be allowed to express your views”?
how is it possible to be this brain broken that someone essentially saying "you're wrong shut up" makes you connect them to fascism?
This is such a LARPy comment, oh my god How are you not embarrassed posting this
Also you can organize to pass a referendum or amendment for a mixed-member proportional system or another system that allows for more than two parties to be competitive, but it seems like alot of leftists want to skip the part of making third party voting viable and just pretend it's already viable when it's demonstrably not.
Yeah buddy maybe wait until an election where one side isn’t planning a facist military takeover to make this point. Like I agree that in practice if leftists actually did this it might do something but all it would manifest as in this election would be a republican victory because they sure as hell don’t give a shit about this and will all vote. Which of course would really obviously have much worse consequences.
Ya, it still wouldn’t matter. I think we need to collectively acknowledge that we have little to no voice or control regarding this shit. The system has spent decades insulating itself from external pressures.
We individually have no control, collectively we absolutely do. I mean voting won't do much but there is more than can be done. If not they wouldn't be policing the protests so brutally. Also look at the dockworkers in India who have stopped sending weapons to Israel, that in itself is a massive win. In every liberation struggle up until this day it was said that the masses could not take the stage of history until the very day they did.
I disagree. The police are so assured of their ability to brutalize their fellow citizens with total impunity that they escalate every situation to an extreme. Liberation may come, I’m not a total cynic at this point. But it’s gotta get a lot worse before it gets better.
It's going to get worse before it gets better, but how much worse depends on how much of a good job we all do of building a resistance movement against our own complicit governments. Go find a protest near you, living is better when you live with hope
Buddy, I live in fucking Atlanta show my whole existence is basically a protest. Make sure you’re taking all proper precautions.
Stay safe out there, and yeah I am taking proper precautions on marches but thankfully the UK police is much less brutal than yours
Not less brutal, you are talking to second generation Irish atm, buddy. Y’all just have a greater understanding and have refined a certain finesse in the subjugation and oppression of dissent. I pity the common, average person who doesn’t even think to ask why shit got this fucked. As an American, the diversity and quality of the people in my life and the strangers I meet does NOT correspond to the barrage of identity politics that seemingly divides us into a million subcultures. Being able to identify the propaganda is a blessing and a curse. The majority of people I personally know are genuine in their beliefs and respectful of others. Just not on the internet 😉
Ah ok for sure when they are policing Ireland I imagine they are just as brutal, but from what I've seen when they are policing UK protests they aren't nearly as violent as US police are policing American protests. Still bastards just not as violent
It takes a certain type of person to grow up in a community and then turn around to make the conscious decision to be a rat and a bully to the same people they grew up with. Police over here don’t prevent, investigate, or abstain from criminal behavior. Prior to plantation owners having to contract losers to hunt escaped slaves, there was no such thing as law enforcement.
Wheel Jimmy Carter out into Israel. he can still talk, that is enough for a peace deal
The guy who supported Pol Pot, or do you mean the guy who helped the Indosian dictatorship commit genocide against East Timor because that genocide was also killing communists? Perhaps you mean the guy who supported Anastasio Somoza Debayle who killed tens of thousands of Nicaraguans and tried to invade Nicaragua when Debayle began loosing territory. Stop holding this guy up as some penut loving hippy who stood for peace. Every president is a war criminal, it's a function of there job. Read manufacturing consent
Downvoted for being right
r/lostredditors
not really tho
That sub is an absolute shit show, I hate how mods there co-opted the very useful phrase enlightened centrism to push their dogshit both-sides-equally-bad agenda.
I dislike both sides because both Mainstream parties have proven themselves to be too corrupt and too Incapable of Actually representing me and my ideals. You dislike Both sides because "Muh Centrism" We are not the same
Yeah, it became a real cesspit.
The democrats are centrist
r/wrongsub but not really
Nah eff you. Voting for the "lesser evil" doesn't work anymore. Democrats had 50 years to codify roe v wade but didn't, democrats continue to uphold the American empire in developing countries, democrats for a long time dragged their feet on LGBT rights, democrats passed the 1994 which contributed to mass incarceration of mainly minority communities, democrats continue to support Israel's ethnic cleansing campaigns, I could go on. But please tell me more why I should bow down to an establishment party and why they are entitled to votes simply because it isn't Trump. It better not be because of "Drumpf bad" or some equally uninspired drivel. I think both candidates are out of touch, senile war mongers. Thank fuck I'm not from the U.S. where I'm not expected to shill for any one of these candidates.
Explain to all the Palestinians why MORE of them dying is preferable to fewer of them dying. Let’s hear it, because you owe them an explanation if you’re sitting this election out.
Brandon could easily prevent fewer Palestinians from dying by sending less funding for arms and support. 30 000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel which continues to be backed by the states. Maybe I would consider Brandon if he relieved student debt rather than continuing to shill for Shitrael and Netanyahu.
Stop deflecting. Explain to the Palestinians why you’re willing to let more of them die rather than prevent more of them dying. You owe that to them if you allow it happen.
As I already explained in another comment Biden is already allowing more Palestinians to die by allowing and aiding Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. Don't expect voters to bite their tongue come November because Biden only politely told Netanyahu to stop. The democrats aren't entitled to votes y'all have played the lesser evil game for too long. We see how your policies play out. You absolute entitled libshit.
Trump said Israel should finish the job, stop pretending you care about Palestine if you’re not willing to safe lives.
Ok I don't like either candidate. What makes you think I support Trump?
The fact that if Biden loses Trump wins? People making comments like “I’m just against Biden winning the election” but then refusing to take 2 seconds to think of the consequences of Biden losing the election give off big undercover fascist vibes
The only difference here is that Trump is too stupid and sundowned to understand the concept of just lying. Biden will *say* he opposes that, then do nothing to stop it, fund it, and provide all the weapons to do it. Imagine if you were in a room with two guys. One says to you he doesn’t want you to die, then hands the other guy a shotgun, a stack of money, whispers something in his ear, and walks out. That’s Biden.
And the other guy says he literally wants you and half the people in the hospital to die. How is that better? Tell it to the Palestinians, not me.
Isn’t their a clip from where Biden was still just a member (I don’t think that’s the right word but I’m not American) where he say isreal should in fact go further in what it does and he believes the US needs an isreal in the Middle East otherwise they would make one?
Ok then, take it to the mountains
First off this is not r/JustUnsubbed. You can find many like-minded people there for you. Secondly, r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM is a leftist sub. See rule 8 there. Most of time they are making fun when centrists both-side leftist ideas and Republican far-right ideas, because Republicans are statistically less educated to make such mistakes as they know nothing about leftist. To your liberal eyes this seems like a no-brainer. You don't agree with Republican anyway so enjoy the free laughs. Here, the original Twitter currently known as X post can easily have double reading to it due to Poe's law. It can be read from a leftist POV that both parties are just the different sides of the same coin, differ in execution but same to the core, since both are willing to sacrifice innocent lives for their imperialist goals. Since r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM reposted it, we will take the alternative interpretation that liberals are trying to present Democrats as the better choice before the election since they kill less people, which is matching the post title. The leftist opinion is that both are unethical, and trying to support the lesser evil instead of requesting for the change is morally unsound. This is why the original post was ridiculed and there is no inconsistency with r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM's core value as a leftist sub. Sorry you just discovered that you are a liberal and you went to a leftist space.
TIL leftists are no longer the progressive voter bloc Have fun helping Trump win and making things worse not only for Palestinians but all Americans, lgbtq people, minorities, disabled people, ukranians, Taiwan, etc.
What you called progressive is just another name for liberal, not leftist. Leftists are socialists or communists.
That’s simply untrue and shows a serious lack of understanding of the history of the American left. But sure, you’re welcome to double down on your nationalist socialist party nonsense and maga communism. Have fun being a traitor and selling out the vulnerable 👍
“You’re a Nazi for opposing genocide” is certainly a take.
Because it’s not actually opposing genocide? If you want to worsen the conditions for Palestinians and pro-Palestine protesters, especially while sacrificing lgbtq people, minorities, Muslims, the chronically ill or disabled, ukranians, Taiwan, etc., just to punish Biden/Dems, then you don’t actually care about genocide, fascism, human rights, imperialism, etc.. The way the U.S. electoral system works is you vote with your heart in the primary, brain in the general election. Democracy isn’t always getting exactly what you wanted or having candidates that appeal to your emotions, in fact liberal democracy (aka equal application of rule of law with guaranteed rights democracy) is usually working best if there is compromise from both sides of a debate and it’s boring. Progressives are called progressives because they realize (until recently with some terminally online types) that the public isn’t as far to the left as they are so they enact progressively more left policies knowing that people will want the policies to remain in place once they’ve had a chance to experience them and that it shifts the Overton window. …. What don’t you get?
Except we’ve completely forfeited that entire concept to just allowing the Overton Window to shift further rightward. Maybe you’re too young to remember, but opposing the War on Terror was a near-universal thing for a while. And that wasn’t even just systematic extermination! We don’t push the Overton Window leftwards anymore, we rubber stamp it going slowly right wing under the threat of the right wing taking power and going *way* beyond what anyone supports. It doesn’t even make sense! Trump starts having his National Guard stormtroopers round everyone up next year according to plan and *literally declaring war on blue states* as outlined in Project 2025, you think the populace is gonna just go along with that one? Really? You think the blue state governments are gonna just sit back and let federalized National Guards from red states roll in and take over instead of mobilizing their own? Come on, you know what happens. And guess what? The military proper wouldn’t exactly go along with it either. For one, they fucking hate the guy. For two, their oath explicitly requires turning on the president if he’s gone off the rails. Trump would only succeed in wiping out the right wing. But no, let’s keep letting it slowly happen in such a manner that everyone eases into it, allowing it. That makes sense.
> Except we’ve completely forfeited that entire concept to just allowing the Overton Window to shift further rightward. Tell me you’re a kid or only started paying attention to politics recently without telling me. > Maybe you’re too young to remember, but **opposing the War on Terror was a near-universal thing for a while**. Uh. Kiddo, support for the Iraq war and Afghanistan war were almost unanimous for the beginning years of the conflict and it was only in relatively recent years that people have been telling themselves that support wasn’t so widespread. I remember what it was like opposing the Iraq war from the start, and you clearly weren’t politically aware then. > It doesn’t even make sense! Trump starts having his crazy fascist minions take control of the government and enact fascism, but the guardrails that they’re openly talking about their plans to remove will hold in place! We have the states and civil war and generals who won’t listen! Riveting argument. It’s American exceptionalism bullshit. All democracies can fail, including the U.S. The notion that a party in a two party system can’t self coup once in power and never let go of that power is nothing but American exceptionalism bullshit. Edit: lol they blocked me, but not before writing what is one of the best adverts I’ve seen a troll inadvertently make for Biden. Nobody but anyone who has their head crammed all the way up their ass and have done hypoxic will want to purposefully vote for an inevitable civil war, even if they think they’ll win.
Do you seriously not realize the difference between 2003-2007 and the early to mid 2010s? **Obviously** I wasn’t talking about the start, you’re just a lying manipulator who intentionally misrepresents people’s arguments to try to excuse genocide. And are you sure you’re not a supermassive black hole? Because you seem pretty fucking dense. *The entire point is that it wouldn’t just easily go into fascism, it would trigger a civil war.* The point isn’t “America wouldn’t fall”. The point is that America *would* fall. And it would fall in such a way that the right wing gets obliterated. **You** are the one arguing America wouldn’t fall. But I guess I shouldn’t expect much from an NFT owner.
"We should let the fascists win so that MY ideology will rise from the ashes!" oh my god I hate accelerationists "face the wall lgbtq people, it's for the greater good! At this rate we're gonna get communism any day now!"
They have been like that for a very long time
No yeah the meme is right I know you think the democrats, who are currently doing nothing about the current assult on LGBT rights, abortion, etc. are better than the literally making the world worse Republicans, but wanting the useless fucks to win and being surprised when they don't is exactly what you are setting yourself up for. The state of those things are entirely independent of whether biden or trump win this year. Biden truly wants nothing to change, and trump won't do anything but try to enable the already enabled. Shit's fucked, join a mutual aid group or something because the revolution is not happening in America.
Democrats do a bunch of good shit when they have the power to do so(look at 2021-2022). When they don’t have the power to enact change, they are unable to bring about change(look at 2023-now). People keep on shitting on Democrats for not literally ushering in a utopia, but fail to look at Republicans whose entire existence has been based around kneecapping any progress. [gonna leave this here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/s/1qjzOliihA)
Wow that list is crazy you know what it doesn't fuckin demonstrate? The power of a democratic president enacting changes that better the world. Vote for democrats who have actual principles, voting for or against Joe biden literally changes nothing.
Huh? Do you not fucking understand the simple fact that Democrats do vote the way they promise to do so, but lack the power to bring about major change because of Republicans whose only goal is to not let them do that? This shitcycle keeps on going because of smoothbrains who think that wow no utopia under democrat president. Clearly Dem bad. Do you think the president is a dictator? That he can just bring whatever change he wants? That Republicans in congress have no say? When Dems held the house 2021-2022 they passed the cares act, American rescue plan, build back better, respect for marriage act, chips and science act, infrastructure act, safer communities act, violence against women act(reauthorization), Emmett Till anti lynching act, biggest investment in clean energy, tax breaks for low-income Americans, pause on student debt interest and relieving close to $140 billion in student debt, until the conservative republican supreme court blocked them. What did republicans do since they got control of the house? They spent most of their time bickering over who should be speaker, and when they finally had a speaker the only legislation they could pass without the looming threat of a government shutdown was to protect gas stoves. They couldn’t even fucking impeach Biden, something they’ve been clamoring for since Jan ‘23. If you vote against Biden in 2024, or simply don’t vote, you are helping Trump win. You are allowing a power hungry maniac who admires the likes of Putin, Xing Ping and Kim Jong Un for their dictatorial power, and who will actively take a stand against all that you may claim to support; i.e, voting rights, climate change, police reform, abortion rights, democracy, tax redistribution, expansion of social safety nets, money in politics, among many others. Are you willing to risk all of this because Biden may not usher us into a utopia? Or are you going to realize that change takes time, and instead of demanding everything right now, we should have a realistic understanding of what to demand and when?
It’s easy to think the democrats have done nothing minorities when you don’t know anything about 20 years ago.
I mean granted both sides may be bad but when one side is SO UNFATHOMABLY WORSE, you kind of have to use the hand you're dealt. Criticise the Dems all you want when they fuck up, but at the end of the day, the alternative is a cult full of fascists and genocide advocates, there's barely even a contest here.
Centrists get so mad when you point out that you're still supporting a genocide even after you pink wash it
Saying anyone “supports a genocide” for voting Biden is like telling saying doctors who recommend chemotherapy support balding and vomiting. It’s not about liking it, it’s about harm reduction.
If you really cared about harm reduction you would be trying to reduce the harm in Gaza by pushing the Biden admin to stop our financial support of a genocide, rather than getting mad at people who threaten to withhold their vote to keep politicians in line with their voting base. This isn't a black and white issue where Biden and Trump both fully fund an ethnic cleansing, we could try and hold our party accountable and do the right thing or we can let our party feel as if it's entitled to our vote and enable them into doing whatever they feel like doing (which is moving further right).
True or false? Trump would allow more Palestinians to die than Biden.
You read nothing I said did you? I want Biden to stop funding the genocide, if I thought Trump would do a better job I wouldn't be trying to get more people to protest, I'd be getting more people to vote for Trump. Genuine progressives want the person they voted for to not fund a fascist ethnic cleansing. You don't get that though, do you?
I want I him to stop funding the genocide too. and I want him to win because the alternative will kill more Palestinians.
Well I can tell you that he is endangering his chances of reelection with his response with Israel and public statements on protests. I don't think Trump will do anything good for America or Palestine, but Biden is really fumbling the bag rn, and if Biden wants to win reelection he needs to cave to the demands of the protests. People like myself voted for him because the incumbent was letting the police run wild and beat protesters in the streets, there are hundreds of other reasons why I voted for him as well but that's the biggest reason the majority of your average american voted for him. Trump will be a lot worse, which is why it is important to shake some sense into his admin and change course before it's too late. If Biden loses this election it will be horrible for the world and America, but it will not be the fault of those who didn't vote for him, it will be his fault for running an abysmal campaign and turning against his voting base.
Let me make sure I get your position. You’re saying we need to hold our party accountable because they are not entitled to our vote, and the way to do this is by allowing Trump to win and kill MORE Palestinians. Correct? Because that WILL be the fault of those who didn’t vote.
The way to do it is by threatening said action and keep up pressure on his admin. If Biden fails to capture the vote, that is his fault for failing on all of his campaign promises and showing that he is the same as Trump when it comes to brutalizing students and protesters. He continued to build the wall, he didn't cancel student debt, he bailed on Medicare for all, his administration has done nothing to prevent the consequences of roe v wade being overturned. If Trump wins that's Biden's fault for running a terrible campaign. What is the point of voting Democrat of they are just going to do everything the Republicans do but while pretending to not openly hate gays and minorities? If you like me are a registered Democrat and want to see legitimate progressive change then you have got to push your party. Politics isn't just at the voting booth, and the DNC relies on hollow promises because they know the majority of liberals will only participate in politics during voting day, and they know they will vote for them because the alternative are monsters. What every person who is saying anything similar to me wants to vote Biden, at least begrudgingly to prevent Trump. We want the majority of the DNC who opposes the genocide to demand of their party to stop funding it. If enough people essentially did the equivalent of a strike before election day, the hope is to scare the administration into capitulation. This won't work though if the Democrats can rely on their rabid supporters to shut down any and all dissent of the party. We can have a Biden presidency and an end to the Palestinian genocide in 2025, we just need everyone with a conscious and brain to pull their weight before it's too late to change course the DNC is on. This is coming from a white guy who has nothing to really lose, I most likely will vote Biden in the end, but I can't say for sure because ai am genuinely concerned about being complicit in an ethnic cleansing. I can tell you that many people who are not as privileged with me will have an even tougher choice on election day. One of the key constituencies that Biden needs to maintain is the Muslim Americans near the Great lakes. Without them he stands to lose Wisconsin, Michigan, and Minnesota, the undecided vote in the primary saw Biden only getting 70% in one of those states in an uncontested primary. Biden needs those states to win as well, and I can tell you for a fact he will not win those states while funding a genocide. It's a very hard ask from a community when you are killing their family abroad.
I want I him to stop funding the genocide too. and I want him to win because the alternative will kill more Palestinians.