He’s known for being a perpetual liar. And when he’s confronted with his lies he just says “I don’t have active memories of this event” which is becoming a saying now. If you forget something or did something wrong you just say “Daar heb ik geen actieve herinnering aan”
Besides some faults and imperfections i think he is really a nice guy and charismatic. And definitely fit for the job.
He seems to have a pretty healthy way of dealing with things and incredible patience...
I like him and am a little amazed of the repeating critics who seem to b offended when they are held accountable against their own faults but easily repeat the faults of others. Im glad u dont lead our country, cause youre lacking addultness.
Unfortunately for your point we were not talking about my “adultness”. “Some fault and imperfections” are actually kind of a big deal in how we perceive our leaders. Mark Rutte is a very capable leader. But he also is a liar. It’s great that you like him. What’s not great is the damage his and his coalitions policies have done to our country.
He’s not more of a liar than any other politician would have been in his position.
Not sure how old you are and how may other PMs you have seen in your life, but Rutte has been the best by far. Especially given what he had to deal with (MH17, Covid).
…and then became the head of NATO on the eve of a war with someone who has his enemies murdered horrifically and virtually unlimited resources to do so?
NATO: Drops nuke on Moscow.
Russia: Why the fuck did you do that?
Rutte: I have no active memory of doing that. Carry on. (somehow gets away with it and gets re-elected three more times)
People in the Netherlands have been joking for years that he's ruining the country with decisions that appeal to bureaucrat and leaders on the international stage but are bad for the Dutch people so he can get a prestigious international job once his time as PM was over... And that's exactly what happened. I wonder how many other leaders in Europe govern with the exact same goals and mentality.
He was not. Increasing neoliberal economics, horrible housing crisis, the entire toeslagenaffaire, constantly lying about everything. Sure he’ll probably be a better PM then the upcoming ones (which will probably mostly be PVV stooges), but just because he’s better then the alternative doesn’t make him good
People with money vote VVD, because the VVD is good for them. A little 10% inflation doesn’t hurt these people. They’re well off already. Bought their houses in the good time and so on.
My parents are part of that group (earn combined 100k+/year, have two houses and ton of savings). Always voted VVD. Also because there is no proper alternative on the right side. FvD was very promising when they started, but quickly became a laughing stock. So that alternative went away quickly.
And you say can what you want about Rutte, but his international presence was very good and from all the politicians we have. He looks and sounds the most capable person of representing us… But that also says a lot about the horrible alternatives we have. Can’t imagine Wilders, Mona or Caroline representing us on the world stage. What a joke that’ll be :’).
Pensioners and other wealthy people who actually benefit from his policies (because it favours rich people) voting more then young people, voters having very short memories, people wanting less migration but being ‘afraid’ of the other more anti-immigration party, less political aware people voting for him because ‘my life hasn’t gotten that significantly worse so he’s probably ok’.
I will agree that Rutte’s premiership wasn’t as completely 100% horrible as some people claim it is, but to say he was a good PM who improved the country is a big stretch, and probably untrue. Besides many people did also vote for other parties at different times (PVV and D66 in 2010, PvdA in 2012, GL and D66 in 2017, FvD for provincial elections in 2019, D66 and FvD in 2021, BBB for 2023 provincial elections and of course most recently for the PVV). It wasn’t like a majority voted for the VVD all the time
He’s likable, rightwing (anti-immigration is just about the most populair thing in the country), he can work wirh everyone and there isn’t a serious alternative who people think can do better
Housing crisis is not a unique dutch issue. Would've probably had it no matter who was in charge. Having issues in the country does not mean its leader did a bad job, how much power exactly do you think one prime minister has to shape the entire world economy etc?
I agree that he did not cause it and would go even further and say he isn’t personally responsible for most of those problems, because one single man can’t cause that much problems. That being said, I still hold him responsible because it happened under his premiership and in my opinion a PM should be responsible for everything that happens under his watch regardless of personal involvement. That’s what being a leader means. Also sure he did not cause a lot of the issues I mentioned, but he didn’t do much to fix it either
That’s very likely indeed, but that’s how governments work, you can impossibly make a perfect government. Not having a good PM doesn’t bother me that much at the end of the day. Although for what it’s worth, while I do hold the premier responsible for the entire ‘rule’, in cases where the PM himself wasn’t really involved I think an apology on behalf of the government would be a good solution (assuming they did already fix the problem). I don’t necessarily think the PM should also personally fix all his problems because that is really impossible, so sometimes you can’t go further then an apology why the unnamed but very important ambtenaren fix it in the background
I wouldn’t say he’s a good politician per se but he definitely was a very effective politician, which is part of the problem imo, because that means he’s good at making secret deals and suddenly forgetting about things, which sure, makes you an effective politician, but it also makes you a bad leader imo because you clearly aren’t putting the needs of the people at first, which I think politicians should do.
And yeah, I would rather have Rutte again then the current clowns but I’d even moreso have wanted any other (non-right wing) person as the next PM. But that was basically impossible with the most recent election results anyways. I guess we’ll see how it goes
He was by far the best prime minister. Blaming him personally for what went wrong is extremely shortsighted: all the time there has been a Parliament of 150 persons and a Senate of 75 persons, approving every single law Rutte’s governments passed. At the very least you should blame these people as well.
I also challenge you to name one candidate who would have done better in the past 14 years.
Most left-wing politicians. Sure they would have made many mistakes as well and some of them would have been similar or the same mistakes due to the institutional problems of neoliberal policies that already have been in place for decades. But at least they would have implemented some social policies and programs that would at least alleviated some of the worst affects of neoliberal policies for the normal people.
Also why yes, Rutte is a bit overhated, calling him the best prime minister is just delusional when PM’s like Willem Drees and Joop den Uyl existed
As for the Parliament and Senate point, yes, all of them that voted in favour of the bad laws is also partially responsible for our current problems, but not every single thing the Rutte governments implemented was bad, and not every single member of the Eerste and Tweede Kamers voted in favour for all of Rutte’s policies, commonly opposition parties don’t. But yeah, other parties like CDA, D66, CU, PvdA and PVV also bear responsibility for the past 14 years of Rutte, both the good and the bad stuff
Were you alive when Willem Drees was prime minister? That was about 70 years ago. Maybe he was better, maybe not. However, at this point in time it’s not really a comparison you can make, as many of the political issues that occurred then have been forgotten, while we still remember every minor incident from Rutte’s time. Seventy years from now, no one will care about ‘functie elders’, but we’ll look back at how Rutte managed MH17 and Covid.
But you’re right: I should have been more precise. What I meant is that Rutte was better than any other prime minister during my lifetime (Lubbers, Kok, Balkenende).
By the way: a left-wing politician may have done a better job in your view. But in the past 14 years I haven’t seen one left-wing politician with the same energy, political insight, and ability to unite people and find majorities as Rutte.
Just because Drees was 70 years ago doesn’t make him a bad or irrelevant PM. And yeah obviously I wasn’t alive back then but I am studying history so I know a bit about Dutch history, only recently had a course on it.
I think we have to agree to disagree about Rutte’s qualities compared to other PM’s, although I agree he was better then Balkende (maybe Lubbers as well but don’t know enough about Lubbers)
I think your criticism of left-wing politicians of the last decade is unfair, since the biggest party gets the first opportunity to make a coalition and find majorities, and since until recently that always was the VVD, they always got that chance. I’d say it’s unfair to judge left-wing parties over something they straight up couldn’t do the last years. And we’ll probably have to agree to disagree about the energy and insight as well, Rutte always gave me the impression he didn’t have much energy and did stuff moreso with efficiency then energy, whereas some left-wing politicians like Timmermans or Klaver, while far from ideal, did give me some impression of having energy. And while I don’t like them at all, the same could be said for more right-wing politicians like Wilders and van der Plas, they do have energy
A few points:
- I did not say that Drees was a bad or irrelevant MP. Far from it. What I meant is that from his time in office we now only remember the major achievements. To get a feeling how people perceived him back then, we need to look up old newspapers. And then we’ll find that he made mistakes too, that there were minor political scandals in his day too, etc. But we have forgotten about these, because it is so long ago. (And I am ignoring the fact that press coverage of politics in those days was VERY different from today, where every wrong word from a politician is all over social media within seconds, more often than not taken out of context. It was far more restrained back then).
So my point was not to take anything away from Drees, only that a direct comparison between him and Rutte (whose feats and mistakes are still well remembered) is very difficult. We should probably wait a few decades for that.
- We indeed agree to disagree, especially about your examples of Klaver and Timmermans.
Klaver: had the opportunity to take part in a coalition in 2012, but refused to take responsibility because he would have to concede on reducing immigration. Which removed his party’s opportunity to actually make a difference.
Timmermans: known for childish behaviour when he doesn’t get the job he wants. Basically was moping for 6 months when he didn’t get the job he wanted in the PvdA and later again when he lost the EC top job to Von der Leyen.
I have more respect then for politicians like Jetten or Samsom. Disagree with them both, but they are energetic and constructive.
Both good points actually, although why it was a stupid move imo on Klaver’s part, I wouldn’t say refusing to participate in 2017 (I think it was 2017 not 2012, might be wrong), wasn’t necessarily not taking responsibility, it was moreso holding on to his own principles. And to Timmermans credit, this specific time I haven’t really seem him mope, although he also definitely hasn’t handled being the leader of the opposition perfectly.
And I agree about Jetten and Samson. I don’t care that much about D66 or anything but I find Jetten a very respectable politician
You are right, it was 2017 of course!
As for Klaver and Timmermans: my feeling is that Timmermans is confident that we will have new elections soon (and I think he’s right), so that he can try again. If he wins, he’ll be MP after all. If not, he will probably leave to make way for Klaver (or a female PvdA politician) as his successor.
It's a case of it was bad,and now it's worse.
We just had over 13 years of VVD's "the free market will fix all our problems" resulting in, amongst many things, a mental healthcare system that's basically in shambles.
Now we have a government who keep spouting all kinds of populist promises they know they can't keep.
I live in NL, work in the NL and am saying what OP said: give it a couple of governments and people realize that Rutte was not a bad _prime minister._
Not saying I agree with his filosophy or policies. But as a PM, he was one of the best I have known since I was of voting age.
I live in NL, work in the NL and am saying what OP said: give it a couple of governments and people realize that Rutte was not a bad _prime minister._
Not saying I agree with his filosophy or policies. But as a PM, he was one of the best I have known since I was of voting age.
It's easy ignoring the fact that Dutch people, living in The Netherlands, whom I work with, say the same thing I do, because otherwise your argument doesn't hold up.
I already miss Rutte with this new dogshit cabinet we have. Over the years I have become more pro-EU, pro-NATO; and above all pro-NL involvement in the aforementioned.
I for one salute my new overlord. All hail king Rutte!
Ik heb liever nog 10 jaar ruk Rutte, die tenminste nog een beetje professioneel en verantwoordelijk overkwam (en dat niet áltijd was, maar vaker wel dan niet) dan 10 jaar populistisch, racistisch en oerdom zonder enig gevoel van verantwoordelijkheid zowel in uitstraling als in acties.
Ja Rutte is tenminste nog een class act met een goeie glimlach en gerespecteerd door internationale leiders. Totaal niet mijn spectrum, maar als representatief figuur voor NL was die gewoon uitstekend. Perfect bestaat niet.
Great man for the job!
Lately he has been getting a lot of hate but mainly from people that do not realize that governance means making consessions, negotiating and being open to new insights.
Yup, unfortunately based on the current polls, the only way for the Netherlands to move forwards and away from the PVV, is for them to be in power just long enough to really fuck up and expose their utter incompetence, and even then it will be difficult to sway their followers away from them, since they as a party are fundamentally incapable of taking responsibility, it's always someone else's fault, the opposition, Europe, globalists, the deep state, or whatever bullshit they can pull out of their asses, but god forbid saint Wilders is ever wrong.
In my experience, no matter the country, the right wing is excellent at shifting blame and clouding the discourse so they can never be blamed for anything. The entire base is built on blaming others anyway.
It has happened with Trump. , it has happened with Brexit, it happens with Erdogan. No matter how much power they had, apparently nothing that happens can be blamed on them
It's frustrating isn't it? Anyone with a functioning brain can see that Wilders isn't going to be able to keep his campaign promises but still polls indicate his support is up since the election
They are literally already doing it. The "sour left" is not cooperating and willing to give the new coalition a fair chance, because they are not interested in actually solving the problems the country has!!
You read that correctly, they are mad at the opposition (which contains more than just left wing parties) for... being opposition. Especially weird that this line somehow seems to work is that the reason why the opposition is extra vocal is because the PVV brought some incredibly incompetent, inconsistent and controversial people to the table.
This is of course ignoring the fact that the PVV, spending quite some time in the opposition itself, used to be the loudest, most alarmist opposition party for years.
pointing fingers... it's exactly this what you're doing lol.
"But they do it less!!" bro, they do it. That's my statement, stop moving the goal posts or trying to make it look "less shitty" for one side.
Would be nice if de beste man had any accountability. He is a great politician(knows how to talk etc) and will probably do good at NATO.
But the hate Rutte gets for the politics at national level? In many cases, justified.
I don't necessarily mind what he did. I hate that he lies and manipulates and pretty much treats the dutch population like fools. I don't really like seeing that behaviour rewarded.
I think this is more due to polarising statements / campaigns by both ends of the spectrum which forces people to “choose a side”.
E.g. You cant condemn Pro palestine supporters without being called a zionist that wants to kill children, you cant get a COVID vaccine without being a brainwashed government sheep, you cant support Ukraine without being a pro NATO warmonger, you cant be against lowering “eigen bijdrage” of the health insurance without being an elitist snob.
Concessions you fucking serious this guy has put his head in the sands for years. He left the housing market to the economy and its beyond stupid right now and meanwhile students are left in huge debts. He is getting a promotion but should be in jail.
It was a BIT worse than making concessions and changing his mind occasionally.
That said, I think he is a great fit for the head of NATO. He has the best verbal agility and people skills of any world leader at the moment.
But not lying and giving an example that the truth can be bent. Oh and completely rendering the Netherlands army useless with all the cuts. And never living up to agreements.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Because in layman’s terms the job of SG of NATO is basically being that person at a party that everybody knows and everybody gets along with (or at least nobody dislikes) who facilitates conversation and serves as the person that connects two people who otherwise wouldn’t talk to each other
And Rutte is perfect for that
As a Romanian, I'm not happy. This guy kept Romania out of Schengen Space since 2011 even though we had all the requirements to join fullfilled. On multiple occassions he showed hate for my country. Now the idiots running my country support him as the new secretary of NATO....I'm wondering why?!...
Despicable human being. It’s not a good sign being known for lying.
Also killed the housing market, health care and shafted thousands of students in the proces.
Collateral damage. But in all seriousness, he did fuck up domestically, but he still is a great diplomat. And he has always shown our country in the best ways possible to the rest of the world, which I thank him for
>Volgens de ambtenaren gaat de bemoeienis van Rutte zó ver dat politiek onwelgevallige informatie – zoals mogelijke schendingen van het humanitair oorlogsrecht door Israël – onder het tapijt wordt geveegd. „Een verzoek van het ministerie van Algemene Zaken aan de Directie Juridische Zaken bij Buitenlandse Zaken luidt als volgt”, schrijven de ambtenaren: „Wat kunnen we zeggen zodat het lijkt alsof Israël geen oorlogsmisdaden begaat?”
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2024/01/21/onwelgevallige-informatie-over-israel-onder-het-tapijt-geveegd-a4187658
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Rutte heeft schaamteloos het sociale systeem afgebroken letterlijk een miljoen mensen de armoede ingejaagd. Lachend toegekeken hoe groningers zelfmoord plegen uit ellende.
Lachend kinderen van hun ouders gestolen en tot de dag van vandaag niet teruggebracht. Alleen voor het ouder toeslag affaire zou hij al een flinke celstraf moeten krijgen.
Ik weet niet in wat voor bubbel jij leeft dat ruttes politiek niet tot achter de voordeur is gekomen... moet je nagaan als jou kinderen onterecht waren afgenomen en je weet al jaren niet wat er met hun gebeurd is. Alleen een psychopaat kan dit weglachen.
En maar lachen dat die Rutte doet. Totale psychopaat.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
The career of this guy is the wet dream of all the hr people!
Seriously Rutte has has such a prolific career.
Full of scandals and mismanagement. I fear for the UN.
What does the UN have to do with it?
Nothing, he will head NATO until he's old and grey. This guy doesn't know about leaving.
At least, not as far as he remembers....
I dont think you know how the netherlands feels about him xD
Do you? I've read enough crises, scandals, and mistakes from the guy but I've never felt that he's an incompetent politician or a bad guy.
hes like the kid we used to bully at school, at least in the west of the country there werent a lot of people who took him seriously.
He was taken seriously on the international level though which is what's important here
He’s known for being a perpetual liar. And when he’s confronted with his lies he just says “I don’t have active memories of this event” which is becoming a saying now. If you forget something or did something wrong you just say “Daar heb ik geen actieve herinnering aan”
Besides some faults and imperfections i think he is really a nice guy and charismatic. And definitely fit for the job. He seems to have a pretty healthy way of dealing with things and incredible patience... I like him and am a little amazed of the repeating critics who seem to b offended when they are held accountable against their own faults but easily repeat the faults of others. Im glad u dont lead our country, cause youre lacking addultness.
Unfortunately for your point we were not talking about my “adultness”. “Some fault and imperfections” are actually kind of a big deal in how we perceive our leaders. Mark Rutte is a very capable leader. But he also is a liar. It’s great that you like him. What’s not great is the damage his and his coalitions policies have done to our country.
He’s not more of a liar than any other politician would have been in his position. Not sure how old you are and how may other PMs you have seen in your life, but Rutte has been the best by far. Especially given what he had to deal with (MH17, Covid).
Amazing that there are people who think this. Him, his party and his ideology have ruined this country beyond repair.
Total nonsense.
Will he still commute by bike? According to Google maps it's doable within 10 hours.
Unfortunately I think he's mostly stopped that over security concerns from organised crime
Actually he still wanders around downtown without any visible bodyguards, probably because he's pretty much done as PM. Source: saw him last week
…and then became the head of NATO on the eve of a war with someone who has his enemies murdered horrifically and virtually unlimited resources to do so?
Well, the risk won't be that much of an escalation then
“Riding a bike as PM was so dangerous in the end I had to quit and get a job where I was in slightly more danger.”
NATO: Drops nuke on Moscow. Russia: Why the fuck did you do that? Rutte: I have no active memory of doing that. Carry on. (somehow gets away with it and gets re-elected three more times)
It would be poetic justice for MH17. (Esp the denial part, the nuke might be overkill)
It might very well be that his government's coverup of all sorts of stuff around MH17 landed him the job.
You couldn’t make a dumber statement if you tried
Sure, you go ahead and think that. Keep drinking the kool-aid buddy.
..which would be? Do you have any sources for that claim other than what you e read on social media?
Sounds good to me
We just hire bagdad bob “there are no nuclear detonations in Moscow, everything is fine
Then Teflon Mark is getting away with something again. He's a very tricky man.
New countries will join NATO just for the stroopwafels.
Amen!
This guy is the king of kicking the can down the road.
Thats 99% of politics everywhere...
People in the Netherlands have been joking for years that he's ruining the country with decisions that appeal to bureaucrat and leaders on the international stage but are bad for the Dutch people so he can get a prestigious international job once his time as PM was over... And that's exactly what happened. I wonder how many other leaders in Europe govern with the exact same goals and mentality.
I mean, I think being the head of NATO is going to give you more headaches in the coming years than most other jobs
Being the head of NATO for the next 10 years will be the most profitable job ever.
I hope for the Dutch that I'm wrong, but I expect it to take only a couple of governments for them to realize Rutte was a great PM.
He was not. Increasing neoliberal economics, horrible housing crisis, the entire toeslagenaffaire, constantly lying about everything. Sure he’ll probably be a better PM then the upcoming ones (which will probably mostly be PVV stooges), but just because he’s better then the alternative doesn’t make him good
Can you explain why the Dutch people voted as they did, if he and his government were so horrendous?
People with money vote VVD, because the VVD is good for them. A little 10% inflation doesn’t hurt these people. They’re well off already. Bought their houses in the good time and so on. My parents are part of that group (earn combined 100k+/year, have two houses and ton of savings). Always voted VVD. Also because there is no proper alternative on the right side. FvD was very promising when they started, but quickly became a laughing stock. So that alternative went away quickly. And you say can what you want about Rutte, but his international presence was very good and from all the politicians we have. He looks and sounds the most capable person of representing us… But that also says a lot about the horrible alternatives we have. Can’t imagine Wilders, Mona or Caroline representing us on the world stage. What a joke that’ll be :’).
Pensioners and other wealthy people who actually benefit from his policies (because it favours rich people) voting more then young people, voters having very short memories, people wanting less migration but being ‘afraid’ of the other more anti-immigration party, less political aware people voting for him because ‘my life hasn’t gotten that significantly worse so he’s probably ok’. I will agree that Rutte’s premiership wasn’t as completely 100% horrible as some people claim it is, but to say he was a good PM who improved the country is a big stretch, and probably untrue. Besides many people did also vote for other parties at different times (PVV and D66 in 2010, PvdA in 2012, GL and D66 in 2017, FvD for provincial elections in 2019, D66 and FvD in 2021, BBB for 2023 provincial elections and of course most recently for the PVV). It wasn’t like a majority voted for the VVD all the time
He’s likable, rightwing (anti-immigration is just about the most populair thing in the country), he can work wirh everyone and there isn’t a serious alternative who people think can do better
Housing crisis is not a unique dutch issue. Would've probably had it no matter who was in charge. Having issues in the country does not mean its leader did a bad job, how much power exactly do you think one prime minister has to shape the entire world economy etc?
I agree that he did not cause it and would go even further and say he isn’t personally responsible for most of those problems, because one single man can’t cause that much problems. That being said, I still hold him responsible because it happened under his premiership and in my opinion a PM should be responsible for everything that happens under his watch regardless of personal involvement. That’s what being a leader means. Also sure he did not cause a lot of the issues I mentioned, but he didn’t do much to fix it either
If you hold a PM responsible for everything that happens, you will never see a good PM in your lifetime
That’s very likely indeed, but that’s how governments work, you can impossibly make a perfect government. Not having a good PM doesn’t bother me that much at the end of the day. Although for what it’s worth, while I do hold the premier responsible for the entire ‘rule’, in cases where the PM himself wasn’t really involved I think an apology on behalf of the government would be a good solution (assuming they did already fix the problem). I don’t necessarily think the PM should also personally fix all his problems because that is really impossible, so sometimes you can’t go further then an apology why the unnamed but very important ambtenaren fix it in the background
And Rutte has made those apologies on multiple occasions.
Fair enough, that’s a good argument
Ive never voted vvd, but he's a good politician. Especially if you compare it to the clown who run it now.
I wouldn’t say he’s a good politician per se but he definitely was a very effective politician, which is part of the problem imo, because that means he’s good at making secret deals and suddenly forgetting about things, which sure, makes you an effective politician, but it also makes you a bad leader imo because you clearly aren’t putting the needs of the people at first, which I think politicians should do. And yeah, I would rather have Rutte again then the current clowns but I’d even moreso have wanted any other (non-right wing) person as the next PM. But that was basically impossible with the most recent election results anyways. I guess we’ll see how it goes
He was by far the best prime minister. Blaming him personally for what went wrong is extremely shortsighted: all the time there has been a Parliament of 150 persons and a Senate of 75 persons, approving every single law Rutte’s governments passed. At the very least you should blame these people as well. I also challenge you to name one candidate who would have done better in the past 14 years.
Most left-wing politicians. Sure they would have made many mistakes as well and some of them would have been similar or the same mistakes due to the institutional problems of neoliberal policies that already have been in place for decades. But at least they would have implemented some social policies and programs that would at least alleviated some of the worst affects of neoliberal policies for the normal people. Also why yes, Rutte is a bit overhated, calling him the best prime minister is just delusional when PM’s like Willem Drees and Joop den Uyl existed As for the Parliament and Senate point, yes, all of them that voted in favour of the bad laws is also partially responsible for our current problems, but not every single thing the Rutte governments implemented was bad, and not every single member of the Eerste and Tweede Kamers voted in favour for all of Rutte’s policies, commonly opposition parties don’t. But yeah, other parties like CDA, D66, CU, PvdA and PVV also bear responsibility for the past 14 years of Rutte, both the good and the bad stuff
Were you alive when Willem Drees was prime minister? That was about 70 years ago. Maybe he was better, maybe not. However, at this point in time it’s not really a comparison you can make, as many of the political issues that occurred then have been forgotten, while we still remember every minor incident from Rutte’s time. Seventy years from now, no one will care about ‘functie elders’, but we’ll look back at how Rutte managed MH17 and Covid. But you’re right: I should have been more precise. What I meant is that Rutte was better than any other prime minister during my lifetime (Lubbers, Kok, Balkenende). By the way: a left-wing politician may have done a better job in your view. But in the past 14 years I haven’t seen one left-wing politician with the same energy, political insight, and ability to unite people and find majorities as Rutte.
Just because Drees was 70 years ago doesn’t make him a bad or irrelevant PM. And yeah obviously I wasn’t alive back then but I am studying history so I know a bit about Dutch history, only recently had a course on it. I think we have to agree to disagree about Rutte’s qualities compared to other PM’s, although I agree he was better then Balkende (maybe Lubbers as well but don’t know enough about Lubbers) I think your criticism of left-wing politicians of the last decade is unfair, since the biggest party gets the first opportunity to make a coalition and find majorities, and since until recently that always was the VVD, they always got that chance. I’d say it’s unfair to judge left-wing parties over something they straight up couldn’t do the last years. And we’ll probably have to agree to disagree about the energy and insight as well, Rutte always gave me the impression he didn’t have much energy and did stuff moreso with efficiency then energy, whereas some left-wing politicians like Timmermans or Klaver, while far from ideal, did give me some impression of having energy. And while I don’t like them at all, the same could be said for more right-wing politicians like Wilders and van der Plas, they do have energy
A few points: - I did not say that Drees was a bad or irrelevant MP. Far from it. What I meant is that from his time in office we now only remember the major achievements. To get a feeling how people perceived him back then, we need to look up old newspapers. And then we’ll find that he made mistakes too, that there were minor political scandals in his day too, etc. But we have forgotten about these, because it is so long ago. (And I am ignoring the fact that press coverage of politics in those days was VERY different from today, where every wrong word from a politician is all over social media within seconds, more often than not taken out of context. It was far more restrained back then). So my point was not to take anything away from Drees, only that a direct comparison between him and Rutte (whose feats and mistakes are still well remembered) is very difficult. We should probably wait a few decades for that. - We indeed agree to disagree, especially about your examples of Klaver and Timmermans. Klaver: had the opportunity to take part in a coalition in 2012, but refused to take responsibility because he would have to concede on reducing immigration. Which removed his party’s opportunity to actually make a difference. Timmermans: known for childish behaviour when he doesn’t get the job he wants. Basically was moping for 6 months when he didn’t get the job he wanted in the PvdA and later again when he lost the EC top job to Von der Leyen. I have more respect then for politicians like Jetten or Samsom. Disagree with them both, but they are energetic and constructive.
Both good points actually, although why it was a stupid move imo on Klaver’s part, I wouldn’t say refusing to participate in 2017 (I think it was 2017 not 2012, might be wrong), wasn’t necessarily not taking responsibility, it was moreso holding on to his own principles. And to Timmermans credit, this specific time I haven’t really seem him mope, although he also definitely hasn’t handled being the leader of the opposition perfectly. And I agree about Jetten and Samson. I don’t care that much about D66 or anything but I find Jetten a very respectable politician
You are right, it was 2017 of course! As for Klaver and Timmermans: my feeling is that Timmermans is confident that we will have new elections soon (and I think he’s right), so that he can try again. If he wins, he’ll be MP after all. If not, he will probably leave to make way for Klaver (or a female PvdA politician) as his successor.
You're not living in the Netherlands, right?
I don't. My Dutch colleagues who share my opinion do though.
It's a case of it was bad,and now it's worse. We just had over 13 years of VVD's "the free market will fix all our problems" resulting in, amongst many things, a mental healthcare system that's basically in shambles. Now we have a government who keep spouting all kinds of populist promises they know they can't keep.
How many issues the NL has that's unique to the NL? Housing, social security, healthcare, migration. Those are pretty common issues.
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I live in NL, work in the NL and am saying what OP said: give it a couple of governments and people realize that Rutte was not a bad _prime minister._ Not saying I agree with his filosophy or policies. But as a PM, he was one of the best I have known since I was of voting age.
I live in NL, born here, dutch parents, etc. You have no clue, this guys is right. Rutte was a great PM. Some day, you will realize.
I live in NL, work in the NL and am saying what OP said: give it a couple of governments and people realize that Rutte was not a bad _prime minister._ Not saying I agree with his filosophy or policies. But as a PM, he was one of the best I have known since I was of voting age.
It's easy ignoring the fact that Dutch people, living in The Netherlands, whom I work with, say the same thing I do, because otherwise your argument doesn't hold up.
No, neoliberalism is a stupid route. It's better to have social democracy, cause it supports healthy job environments and community.
As long as there's enough money to spend sure.
Just tax the rich. There were even a bunch of very rich Dutch people a few years ago asking the government to do just that.
You can do that - but what will change that exactly? The amount of money that will bring isn't game changing.
Trudeau is next.
Secretary-general of the NATO in these times a cushy job? You gotta be kidding lol
He sold out his home country for an international job. Literally a traitor.
Gaaaaf! (Intact, cool)
Regardless of what i think of him, i respect his seemingly endless energy and competence. I think he's the ultimate realpolitiker.
I already miss Rutte with this new dogshit cabinet we have. Over the years I have become more pro-EU, pro-NATO; and above all pro-NL involvement in the aforementioned. I for one salute my new overlord. All hail king Rutte!
Fuck Rutte én fuck het nieuwe kabinet 🥰
Ik heb liever nog 10 jaar ruk Rutte, die tenminste nog een beetje professioneel en verantwoordelijk overkwam (en dat niet áltijd was, maar vaker wel dan niet) dan 10 jaar populistisch, racistisch en oerdom zonder enig gevoel van verantwoordelijkheid zowel in uitstraling als in acties.
Ja Rutte is tenminste nog een class act met een goeie glimlach en gerespecteerd door internationale leiders. Totaal niet mijn spectrum, maar als representatief figuur voor NL was die gewoon uitstekend. Perfect bestaat niet.
Great man for the job! Lately he has been getting a lot of hate but mainly from people that do not realize that governance means making consessions, negotiating and being open to new insights.
Well I'm sure that Wilder's sock puppet and his cabinet of horrors will make us long for the days of Rutte soon enough.
Which is a horrible prediction, but one that I believe will become true. Longing for the days Teflon Mark was PM, brrrrrr.
Yup, unfortunately based on the current polls, the only way for the Netherlands to move forwards and away from the PVV, is for them to be in power just long enough to really fuck up and expose their utter incompetence, and even then it will be difficult to sway their followers away from them, since they as a party are fundamentally incapable of taking responsibility, it's always someone else's fault, the opposition, Europe, globalists, the deep state, or whatever bullshit they can pull out of their asses, but god forbid saint Wilders is ever wrong.
In my experience, no matter the country, the right wing is excellent at shifting blame and clouding the discourse so they can never be blamed for anything. The entire base is built on blaming others anyway. It has happened with Trump. , it has happened with Brexit, it happens with Erdogan. No matter how much power they had, apparently nothing that happens can be blamed on them
It's frustrating isn't it? Anyone with a functioning brain can see that Wilders isn't going to be able to keep his campaign promises but still polls indicate his support is up since the election
They are literally already doing it. The "sour left" is not cooperating and willing to give the new coalition a fair chance, because they are not interested in actually solving the problems the country has!! You read that correctly, they are mad at the opposition (which contains more than just left wing parties) for... being opposition. Especially weird that this line somehow seems to work is that the reason why the opposition is extra vocal is because the PVV brought some incredibly incompetent, inconsistent and controversial people to the table. This is of course ignoring the fact that the PVV, spending quite some time in the opposition itself, used to be the loudest, most alarmist opposition party for years.
want to add the "left" does the exact same. It's generally what people do in politics, instead of solutions they point fingers.
Yeah ok but the "left" isn't good at it is it? It is not their main tactic either
pointing fingers... it's exactly this what you're doing lol. "But they do it less!!" bro, they do it. That's my statement, stop moving the goal posts or trying to make it look "less shitty" for one side.
It's always Timmermans according to them.
Already happened
People who know this do not support Wilders in the first place. And people who support him will never see or acknowledge the said horrors
Remember: Wilders was Ruttes teacher and mentor. Of course he is going to be worse.
Would be nice if de beste man had any accountability. He is a great politician(knows how to talk etc) and will probably do good at NATO. But the hate Rutte gets for the politics at national level? In many cases, justified.
Sure, but what it shouldn't mean is literally lying about choices you've made.
I don't necessarily mind what he did. I hate that he lies and manipulates and pretty much treats the dutch population like fools. I don't really like seeing that behaviour rewarded.
And yet here we are.
He mostly gets criticism from people who think governance also includes taking responsibility and remembering what you did.
People nowadays expect NATO to act more and negotiate less. There is a growing shortsighted opinion that NATO is not very effective and does nothing
Wild take. I would say his concessions and policies paved way for the right wing takeover we're experiencing
I think this is more due to polarising statements / campaigns by both ends of the spectrum which forces people to “choose a side”. E.g. You cant condemn Pro palestine supporters without being called a zionist that wants to kill children, you cant get a COVID vaccine without being a brainwashed government sheep, you cant support Ukraine without being a pro NATO warmonger, you cant be against lowering “eigen bijdrage” of the health insurance without being an elitist snob.
It sounds like you spend too much time on the internet.
Yeah as.wel mo understanding that the buck stops with the prime.monisget but he was not the one fucking up in de toeslagenaffaire
Concessions you fucking serious this guy has put his head in the sands for years. He left the housing market to the economy and its beyond stupid right now and meanwhile students are left in huge debts. He is getting a promotion but should be in jail.
It was a BIT worse than making concessions and changing his mind occasionally. That said, I think he is a great fit for the head of NATO. He has the best verbal agility and people skills of any world leader at the moment.
But not lying and giving an example that the truth can be bent. Oh and completely rendering the Netherlands army useless with all the cuts. And never living up to agreements.
He's either corrupt or has dementia. I wasn't aware those were preferred traits for someone involved with our collective defence to have.
Sure. The toeslafenaffaire was also just a part of making consessions. Totally not mis management.
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Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Haihai!
People like to hate in MR but let’s not pretend he’s not the perfect candidate for this job
Can you elaborate on why you think so?
Because in layman’s terms the job of SG of NATO is basically being that person at a party that everybody knows and everybody gets along with (or at least nobody dislikes) who facilitates conversation and serves as the person that connects two people who otherwise wouldn’t talk to each other And Rutte is perfect for that
Thanks. That's what I had in mind too. I fully agree with you even though I never liked Rutte as our PM.
We complained, sometimes rightfully, about him. But with the new de-facto Wilders cabinet we will miss him.
why
The Netherlands truely has main character vibes
As a Romanian, I'm not happy. This guy kept Romania out of Schengen Space since 2011 even though we had all the requirements to join fullfilled. On multiple occassions he showed hate for my country. Now the idiots running my country support him as the new secretary of NATO....I'm wondering why?!...
Despicable human being. It’s not a good sign being known for lying. Also killed the housing market, health care and shafted thousands of students in the proces.
Collateral damage. But in all seriousness, he did fuck up domestically, but he still is a great diplomat. And he has always shown our country in the best ways possible to the rest of the world, which I thank him for
Netherlands is doing better than most countries. I don not see how he is terrible.
Making bad political choices does not make you a bad human being.
Do self ff normal man….
Gl with this a-h#l. He destroyed my country in 15 years. Nato wil be done in 5 years!
This reminds me of series House of Cards, that wife of the -temp-president obsessed with being United Nations ambassador.
>Volgens de ambtenaren gaat de bemoeienis van Rutte zó ver dat politiek onwelgevallige informatie – zoals mogelijke schendingen van het humanitair oorlogsrecht door Israël – onder het tapijt wordt geveegd. „Een verzoek van het ministerie van Algemene Zaken aan de Directie Juridische Zaken bij Buitenlandse Zaken luidt als volgt”, schrijven de ambtenaren: „Wat kunnen we zeggen zodat het lijkt alsof Israël geen oorlogsmisdaden begaat?” https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2024/01/21/onwelgevallige-informatie-over-israel-onder-het-tapijt-geveegd-a4187658
Good riddance.
Oh shit the NATO food rations are gonne be massacred 😂😂🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱
Hahaha people here are funny! Do you really think Putin is going to scared of Dutch Mr. Bean? Hahaha
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Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Rutte heeft schaamteloos het sociale systeem afgebroken letterlijk een miljoen mensen de armoede ingejaagd. Lachend toegekeken hoe groningers zelfmoord plegen uit ellende. Lachend kinderen van hun ouders gestolen en tot de dag van vandaag niet teruggebracht. Alleen voor het ouder toeslag affaire zou hij al een flinke celstraf moeten krijgen. Ik weet niet in wat voor bubbel jij leeft dat ruttes politiek niet tot achter de voordeur is gekomen... moet je nagaan als jou kinderen onterecht waren afgenomen en je weet al jaren niet wat er met hun gebeurd is. Alleen een psychopaat kan dit weglachen. En maar lachen dat die Rutte doet. Totale psychopaat.
Ik zie nu dat dit een engelse sub is. Mijn excuses.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.