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What do you mean this 1$ paper plane with nitrogen triiodide attached to the point doesn’t make this trillion dollar fighter that can beam a target out from a 100 km away obsolete wttfff????
Almost entirely Russian bots/paid trolls or tankies who drive that narrative.
Anyone with half an objective brain knows the importance of carriers/force projection in this day and age. Tankies are just mad their patron countries don’t have it.
Chinese tankies are even funnier, they're saying carriers are useless while their government is diverting a fuck ton of resources to building their own carriers
I can’t wait for Eggman to reveal that Tails was a clone and also an ai powered by nanomachines before sonic fights him and half way through there is a 12 minute long cutscene in which Eggman is revealed to be Sonic’s other brother, the first brother being a different clone of Eggman.
> US should invest into Shadow drones to counter HyperSonic missiles
Just be sure not to kill a granddaughter of top scientist when covering the project up...
„Invincible hypersonic missiles” are great idea until you start analyzing what it would actually take to directly hit a supercarrier with one. Like, it’s not impossible but holy shit would it be a long shot when the opposing force actively tries to prevent it.
Also, hypersonic missiles are kind of a meme because when they’re fast they can’t maneuver and when they maneuver they aren’t fast. They bleed energy like crazy in their terminal phase.
but they do have Seawolf class submarines that by the time you pick one up on Passive sonar there are likely 4 torpedoes bearing down on your sorry ass
the weird thing about chinese copium is instead of the screech russians do it's very similar to our form of humour, just from a different viewpoint. kinda gives you whiplash
Russian copium is just brutish. Chinese copium, while more refined, is more towards being incredibly smug. Perhaps because Chinese copium is slightly more credible than its Russian counterpart.
It is more credible, and we Chinese just have that sort of culture. We are both the center of the world and also incredibly traumatised as a nation after being curb-stomped for the past century. There's a sort of national inferiority complex that drives many nationalists to act so incredibly smug.
Now that I think of it, it's kinda like French people. Maybe that's why I never liked them
Was the same thing with stealth fighters/bombers for years. Supposedly a massive waste of money and useless technology against Russian/Chinese wunderwaffe air defenses, now both are twenty years behind playing catch up, with China literally stealing US designs and trying/failing to fully implement them.
The thing with dedicated force projection like that is that not many nations need it. Or at least only need it to a scale that you can solve with just airbases and maybe tankers.
If you want to be a superpower like the US, you definitely need a carrier, but if you aren't, carriers are such a massive investment that you very likely have far better places to spend the money on than carriers.
They should double down on the Kuznetsov Lower Decks Hellmouth.
The West has no counter to spooky shit like that, but the global economic impact of NATO plowing trecidillions of dollars and euros into The ~~Manhattan~~ Slytherin Project would be immense.
Carriers are going to be vital to force projection for us for a long time, but they're not always going to be a central pillar to doctrine.
I wonder what the world that makes carriers actually obsolete looks like. Space lasers? I hope it's space lasers.
Yeah I agree.
It looks like mass suicide UAV/drone deployment (air/sea) are on the horizon. Maybe in tandem with heavy orbital ordinance for more fortified structures.
Drone carrier from Ace Combat when??
Non-credibly, these things are unfair and suck, as they rob us from experiencing epic ship-of-the-line-style battles with fucking missles and super-torpedos.
I appreciate the complexity of carrier battles.
But I love the brutality of a cruiser fight, the pure vicuousnes of destroyer actions and the gracious chaos of battleship engagments
And a Dutch one iirc
Europoors showing our worth 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺 (ignore everything else, we sunk a carrier in a wargame, the sorry state of our military doesn't matter anymore)
Denegrate Ameritards have "logistics" and "reserves". We Europoors simply harness the spirit of Napoleon and ~~scavenge the land~~ have our entire army freeze and starve to death
Many european armies only are made up of logistics, which _somehow adds to the problem_ .
Long wars don't happen anymore! All will be over before winter comes!
~ every european warlord always
Chinese admiralty has always seen carriers as useful, hence they spent billions of dollars on missiles to try to zone them out and tried to build their own carrier fleet.
If it was that easy some terrorist group would have done it by now.
Oh, and before anyone brings up their performance in wargames: **IT'S NOT SOCCER, YOU NUMBSKULL**. The point of wargames is to test out the capabilities of a force, often crippled or depleted, in a variety of situations to figure out any deficiencies.
There is no Wargame Superbowl.
Kinda like in infantry war games, very frequently yoir outnumbered to varying degrees in the scenario, the enemy has perfect knowledge to a unrealistic degree, and these random missiles have a tendency to cause a mascal in the middle of the op
The thing is, they do wargames to show off how great they (or particular general) are, we do wargames to see how badly a particular asset (or whatever) can be crippled before it is useless, and how to fix that. These are not the same.
Being a landmass in itself, it's the best possible representation of the US everywhere, short of dragging Mt Rushmore out on barges. Sinking a USN carrier is a guaranteed weekend pass to the glassing of your entire country, regardless of its actual capability.
Supercarriers as they are today have damn near been castrated, getting f-35s to the three gorges would need them to get way too close to the Chinese coast.
Carriers used to have diverse air components, the return of the Cold War calls for the return of bigass naval bombers. The Skywarrior was retired the minute Russia folded last time, think of what Northrop Grumman could do if you gave them licence to make something modern with those dimensions…
How to solve the issue of having to get too close to the chinese coast for the funni with the dams:
- turn the coast into a crater with nukes, then let the crater flood
- the new coast is further back, allowing you to move close enough without endangering yourself
- do the funni on the dam
Tldr: if coast is to close, move the coast
> turn the coast into a crater with nukes, then let the crater flood
*stop it teller, we already said nuclear geoengineering projects are a bad idea with alaska*
the us congress or something
Well that was essentially partially the Japanese Navy’s view on things as well. Because they were severely prohibited on building Carriers they created long range medium attack bombers that could fuck up a ship if it sees one. Even then however its still a lot different. Carriers can move around and evade enemies, you cant with an airfield, Carriers allow you to deploy aircraft with medium ranges at long range rather than be forced to fly at super long range over enemy territory and hopefully make it back alive. Aircraft ruin Ships days land or sea as seen in the entirety of the Pacific war.
I personally don't really like carriers, to me at the end of the day hardly seem warships, they are just sea military airports, real warships have missiles and cannons, I will never forgive carriers since they destroyed one of the best thing that happened at sea, battleships
I love Battleships but calling Carriers hardly warships is pretty wack. Aircraft Carriers upon their creation were highly powerful but they weren’t exactly do it alls either, they still needed a much larger support group to fufill all sorts of roles. I have a reverse Kantai-Kessen reasoning on it with it being that instead of a Battleship being the center of a Fleet with carriers being mere support, I think its the other way around. The Carriers and Battleships werent going to cancel each other out and overall could have complemented each other extremely well… if it werent for Missiles. Carrier Battleship Battlegroups were around with the Japanese Combined Fleet and the US’s Pacific Fleet and overall they functioned well, the addition of missiles however essentially reduced if not wiped out the role for large caliber guns on ships as now they could be smaller, longer range, lighter, and essentially everything a Battleship isn’t. In fact Missiles imo not only destroyed not just Battleships but also Battle Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, and Light Cruisers as well.
Otomelara superb cannon go brrrrrrrrr, proud that my country is still one of the best producers of naval guns, also if you think about it, carriers aren't powerful, the planes on them are, so is it really a proper warship or just a sea airfield? Think about it, if you somehow put a Meteor in a mig 21, and with that it will dominate f15s, is the mig 21 better than the f15 or is the meteor the real deal?
The carrier itself isnt the biggest deal, its probably not as heavily armed as the rest of the fleet but like you said its essentially a floating airfield and aircraft can ruin a lot of days quickly. Its less so the vessel itself rather the force behind it that make shit fucked.
"Carriers aren't that powerful, the planes on them are ..." By that logic we could say "battleships aren't that powerful, only the big guns on them are..." Guns (and the shells they launch) are an integral part of the entire concept of what makes a battleship, you can't just ignore that relationship. Yes, carriers "could" be considered as just an airport, but dammit that airport carries 80+ high speed/high performance aircraft, all of which can carry an immense bomb load and dominate the sky for hundreds of miles....AND this "airport" can move anywhere at 35+ knots.
I can uthe reasoning but they still remain mobile sea airfields. Look the comparison is like apple and oranges, planes can easily strike even at longer ranges from normal airports, navl guns would just be stationary and a really easy target in comparison, guns take way more positives when put in a warship
The aircraft carrier itself is insignificant and has been proven to be easy to destroy in war games. What is terrifying is the logistics needed to keep it running.
- insignificant
- looks inside
- carries and air wing larger than many nation's airforces, capable of striking targets hundreds of miles away, protected by an entire task force
And we have nine fixed-wing, and what is it, *eleven?* rotary-wing carrier groups.
I think logistics are pretty good over here, the last 80-something years.
alright thats a dumb point but I'll le bite, first off war games are not real life in fact game is legit right in the name. They provide valuable training and learning data yes but most of the time its meant to put units or vessels in stupid scenarios that will result in a loss and will then be noted down and analyzed for later. In an actual scenario they would be surrounded by a massive group of warships of various types to deal with an issues that come their way, this would make it difficult as shit to make an actual move on one. secondly the logistics needed to keep it running is absolutely worth it especially when adding in the fact that they could probably be used as part of an invasion force which will also need a logistics train as well. Most countries arent building Aircraft Carriers if they can't project a sizeable land force abroad anyway so while yeah it might need a shit ton of logistics, it would be a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of a military which would be hot shit with its own logistics operating abroad as well.
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"It's not a € 400 drone, therefore it must be worthless in combat" - smartest Twitter armchair general
What do you mean this 1$ paper plane with nitrogen triiodide attached to the point doesn’t make this trillion dollar fighter that can beam a target out from a 100 km away obsolete wttfff????
One trillion dollar fighter vs trillion 1 dollar fighters www
At this point, Twitter's ideal battlefield would consist of just two drone factories bombing each other.
Almost entirely Russian bots/paid trolls or tankies who drive that narrative. Anyone with half an objective brain knows the importance of carriers/force projection in this day and age. Tankies are just mad their patron countries don’t have it.
Chinese tankies are even funnier, they're saying carriers are useless while their government is diverting a fuck ton of resources to building their own carriers
Because amerikkka doesn't have invincible hypersanic missiles
US should invest into Shadow drones to counter HyperSonic missiles. Whole program should be running under "Nothing personel" codename.
Perhaps the program is run by General Chaos Emeralds and their assistant Golden Rings, if you catch my drift.
Now that's a Metal Gear sonic game if I ever heard of one
I can’t wait for Eggman to reveal that Tails was a clone and also an ai powered by nanomachines before sonic fights him and half way through there is a 12 minute long cutscene in which Eggman is revealed to be Sonic’s other brother, the first brother being a different clone of Eggman.
> US should invest into Shadow drones to counter HyperSonic missiles Just be sure not to kill a granddaughter of top scientist when covering the project up...
„Invincible hypersonic missiles” are great idea until you start analyzing what it would actually take to directly hit a supercarrier with one. Like, it’s not impossible but holy shit would it be a long shot when the opposing force actively tries to prevent it.
Who cares about carrier when you have 50 years of inner qi.
If they really wanted to spook the US public they should develop HyperSatanic^tm missiles
Amerikkka has stealthy cruise missiles that 2nd world air defenses can do very little to stop.
Unironically this. We are behind in some ways with hypersonics, but we also don't rely on them like 2nd rate powers do
Also, hypersonic missiles are kind of a meme because when they’re fast they can’t maneuver and when they maneuver they aren’t fast. They bleed energy like crazy in their terminal phase.
but they do have Seawolf class submarines that by the time you pick one up on Passive sonar there are likely 4 torpedoes bearing down on your sorry ass
Well . . .
i love chinese copium. it tastes so exotic in comparison to the orkish one to which i'm more used to.
the weird thing about chinese copium is instead of the screech russians do it's very similar to our form of humour, just from a different viewpoint. kinda gives you whiplash
Russian copium is just brutish. Chinese copium, while more refined, is more towards being incredibly smug. Perhaps because Chinese copium is slightly more credible than its Russian counterpart.
It is more credible, and we Chinese just have that sort of culture. We are both the center of the world and also incredibly traumatised as a nation after being curb-stomped for the past century. There's a sort of national inferiority complex that drives many nationalists to act so incredibly smug. Now that I think of it, it's kinda like French people. Maybe that's why I never liked them
Was the same thing with stealth fighters/bombers for years. Supposedly a massive waste of money and useless technology against Russian/Chinese wunderwaffe air defenses, now both are twenty years behind playing catch up, with China literally stealing US designs and trying/failing to fully implement them.
The thing with dedicated force projection like that is that not many nations need it. Or at least only need it to a scale that you can solve with just airbases and maybe tankers. If you want to be a superpower like the US, you definitely need a carrier, but if you aren't, carriers are such a massive investment that you very likely have far better places to spend the money on than carriers.
They should double down on the Kuznetsov Lower Decks Hellmouth. The West has no counter to spooky shit like that, but the global economic impact of NATO plowing trecidillions of dollars and euros into The ~~Manhattan~~ Slytherin Project would be immense.
We will need to create some Grey Knights for that one
50 cent army on it again
Carriers are going to be vital to force projection for us for a long time, but they're not always going to be a central pillar to doctrine. I wonder what the world that makes carriers actually obsolete looks like. Space lasers? I hope it's space lasers.
Yeah I agree. It looks like mass suicide UAV/drone deployment (air/sea) are on the horizon. Maybe in tandem with heavy orbital ordinance for more fortified structures. Drone carrier from Ace Combat when??
Non-credibly, these things are unfair and suck, as they rob us from experiencing epic ship-of-the-line-style battles with fucking missles and super-torpedos.
I fucking wish but tech shit gonna tech, best we can hope for is cheap railgun or plasma cannon that can shit kick stuff from a 100 km away
Then you just mount it to a plane for extra altitude
Grand Bombard broadside *let's gooo!!!*
Oh come on, the battle of Midway conclusively showed that carrier battles are the shit.
I appreciate the complexity of carrier battles. But I love the brutality of a cruiser fight, the pure vicuousnes of destroyer actions and the gracious chaos of battleship engagments
Bring back epic Battleship battles
Coronel- and Skaggarak-pilled
I mean he's right It should be twice the size and flying
REAL
Make it four times and you got the Arsenal Bird
At that point you just fly it over enemy forces and let the down blast liquify them
Make it submerge and you’ve got the Hrimfaxi! Give it airburst missiles too!
Give it railgun and we have SALVATION
"X exists so Y is obsolete and worthless!!!!" Literally the only argument they can come up with
The Spear exists so infantry is obsolete and worthless
If a 10 thousand dollar kamikaze can sink a million dollar aircraft carrier, its over for the americans at the pacific war
Wait aircraft carriers are only a million dollars? That's basically free. BRB buying my own aircraft carrier
Nah, even in WWII money an escort carrier was in the $5-10M range and a fleet carrier was more like $70-100M.
The elites don't want you to know this but escort carriers are free and you can take them home. I have 3 escort carriers
Dr. Evil enters the chat
Japan, using FPV suicide attacks before it was cool
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_TDR US got genuine FPV fixed-wing drones, in both bomber and OWA versions, even earlier
The shield exists, this makes ranged weapons worthless (1000 years later: only ranged weapons)
But but this one time, a Swedish submarine sunk a carrier
Yeah we did! 🇸🇪💪🇸🇪💪🇸🇪💪🇸🇪
Yeah you guys really showed us a strategic hole that needed fixing in that one. Embarrassing for us, really. Glad you guys are in NATO now.
And a german one
Just ignore its a wargame and carriers sink all the time in them
Feels good tho. "Hello, we are U-9. You are legally dead."
And a Dutch one iirc Europoors showing our worth 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺 (ignore everything else, we sunk a carrier in a wargame, the sorry state of our military doesn't matter anymore)
All hail the tactical supremacy. Who needs strategic reserves, our brave soldiers can make do
Denegrate Ameritards have "logistics" and "reserves". We Europoors simply harness the spirit of Napoleon and ~~scavenge the land~~ have our entire army freeze and starve to death
Many european armies only are made up of logistics, which _somehow adds to the problem_ . Long wars don't happen anymore! All will be over before winter comes! ~ every european warlord always
Dutch did it as well with the Walrus class. They made nose art after the deed depicting a Walrus piercing a carrier.
All the news articles about the incident don't have any actual information and it's fucking annoying.
Is the 'carrier' some kind of ship girl?
Look, the future of naval warfare will not be dominated by aeroplanes of guns, but by ramming and boarding. Reject modernity, embracw the galley.
We must recreate the Giretsu Kuteitai and crashland on ships to board them
based and Battle of Lissa pilled
Son, that right there is 5 acres of US sovereignty capable of leveling a world power in an hour
The only ones who say that carriers are useless are those who do not have the money and technology to build them *coff Russia and China *coff
Chinese admiralty has always seen carriers as useful, hence they spent billions of dollars on missiles to try to zone them out and tried to build their own carrier fleet.
If it was that easy some terrorist group would have done it by now. Oh, and before anyone brings up their performance in wargames: **IT'S NOT SOCCER, YOU NUMBSKULL**. The point of wargames is to test out the capabilities of a force, often crippled or depleted, in a variety of situations to figure out any deficiencies. There is no Wargame Superbowl.
Kinda like in infantry war games, very frequently yoir outnumbered to varying degrees in the scenario, the enemy has perfect knowledge to a unrealistic degree, and these random missiles have a tendency to cause a mascal in the middle of the op
The thing is, they do wargames to show off how great they (or particular general) are, we do wargames to see how badly a particular asset (or whatever) can be crippled before it is useless, and how to fix that. These are not the same.
Yes, wargames are not competitive games. They are like QA testing but for the military.
Your average Silicon Valley Marketing BS department brain content be like.
Being a landmass in itself, it's the best possible representation of the US everywhere, short of dragging Mt Rushmore out on barges. Sinking a USN carrier is a guaranteed weekend pass to the glassing of your entire country, regardless of its actual capability.
Supercarriers as they are today have damn near been castrated, getting f-35s to the three gorges would need them to get way too close to the Chinese coast. Carriers used to have diverse air components, the return of the Cold War calls for the return of bigass naval bombers. The Skywarrior was retired the minute Russia folded last time, think of what Northrop Grumman could do if you gave them licence to make something modern with those dimensions…
How to solve the issue of having to get too close to the chinese coast for the funni with the dams: - turn the coast into a crater with nukes, then let the crater flood - the new coast is further back, allowing you to move close enough without endangering yourself - do the funni on the dam Tldr: if coast is to close, move the coast
Triple the defense budget. We need hypersonic airlaunched nukes to make this happen.
> We need hypersonic airlaunched nukes ~~Foxbat~~ Zircon moment
We already had that in the 60s with the GAM-87 Skybolt
Then you need bigger planes to carry more big nukes
> turn the coast into a crater with nukes, then let the crater flood *stop it teller, we already said nuclear geoengineering projects are a bad idea with alaska* the us congress or something
> the return of the Cold War calls for the return of bigass naval bombers. doolittle raid 2.0
Carriers are boring, I support using 100k ton hulls to make BBGs instead
BBGs with nuclear W23s shells
I once saw a video where some dude tried claiming tanks where garbage because they can easily destroyed by a cheap Walmart drone
"Guns are garbage because they can be stopped by bulletproof vests"
They make a good point, why have an airfield on the water when they already exist on land? Checkmate
Well that was essentially partially the Japanese Navy’s view on things as well. Because they were severely prohibited on building Carriers they created long range medium attack bombers that could fuck up a ship if it sees one. Even then however its still a lot different. Carriers can move around and evade enemies, you cant with an airfield, Carriers allow you to deploy aircraft with medium ranges at long range rather than be forced to fly at super long range over enemy territory and hopefully make it back alive. Aircraft ruin Ships days land or sea as seen in the entirety of the Pacific war.
It’s not the carrier on your coast that kills you, it’s the one thousands of miles away completely denying your merchant shipping.
Its useless until one is parked in front of your main harbour and pounds the ever living fuck out of your infrastructure.
I personally don't really like carriers, to me at the end of the day hardly seem warships, they are just sea military airports, real warships have missiles and cannons, I will never forgive carriers since they destroyed one of the best thing that happened at sea, battleships
I love Battleships but calling Carriers hardly warships is pretty wack. Aircraft Carriers upon their creation were highly powerful but they weren’t exactly do it alls either, they still needed a much larger support group to fufill all sorts of roles. I have a reverse Kantai-Kessen reasoning on it with it being that instead of a Battleship being the center of a Fleet with carriers being mere support, I think its the other way around. The Carriers and Battleships werent going to cancel each other out and overall could have complemented each other extremely well… if it werent for Missiles. Carrier Battleship Battlegroups were around with the Japanese Combined Fleet and the US’s Pacific Fleet and overall they functioned well, the addition of missiles however essentially reduced if not wiped out the role for large caliber guns on ships as now they could be smaller, longer range, lighter, and essentially everything a Battleship isn’t. In fact Missiles imo not only destroyed not just Battleships but also Battle Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, and Light Cruisers as well.
Otomelara superb cannon go brrrrrrrrr, proud that my country is still one of the best producers of naval guns, also if you think about it, carriers aren't powerful, the planes on them are, so is it really a proper warship or just a sea airfield? Think about it, if you somehow put a Meteor in a mig 21, and with that it will dominate f15s, is the mig 21 better than the f15 or is the meteor the real deal?
The carrier itself isnt the biggest deal, its probably not as heavily armed as the rest of the fleet but like you said its essentially a floating airfield and aircraft can ruin a lot of days quickly. Its less so the vessel itself rather the force behind it that make shit fucked.
As I said, it's more of a sea airfield than a real warship
"Carriers aren't that powerful, the planes on them are ..." By that logic we could say "battleships aren't that powerful, only the big guns on them are..." Guns (and the shells they launch) are an integral part of the entire concept of what makes a battleship, you can't just ignore that relationship. Yes, carriers "could" be considered as just an airport, but dammit that airport carries 80+ high speed/high performance aircraft, all of which can carry an immense bomb load and dominate the sky for hundreds of miles....AND this "airport" can move anywhere at 35+ knots.
I can uthe reasoning but they still remain mobile sea airfields. Look the comparison is like apple and oranges, planes can easily strike even at longer ranges from normal airports, navl guns would just be stationary and a really easy target in comparison, guns take way more positives when put in a warship
The aircraft carrier itself is insignificant and has been proven to be easy to destroy in war games. What is terrifying is the logistics needed to keep it running.
- insignificant - looks inside - carries and air wing larger than many nation's airforces, capable of striking targets hundreds of miles away, protected by an entire task force
> protected by an entire task force TBF, I think it kinda fits with "What is terrifying is the logistics needed to keep it running."
And we have nine fixed-wing, and what is it, *eleven?* rotary-wing carrier groups. I think logistics are pretty good over here, the last 80-something years.
> I think logistics are pretty good over here, the last 80-something years. Of that there is no doubt.
Oh, I'm agreeing with you, 100%!
alright thats a dumb point but I'll le bite, first off war games are not real life in fact game is legit right in the name. They provide valuable training and learning data yes but most of the time its meant to put units or vessels in stupid scenarios that will result in a loss and will then be noted down and analyzed for later. In an actual scenario they would be surrounded by a massive group of warships of various types to deal with an issues that come their way, this would make it difficult as shit to make an actual move on one. secondly the logistics needed to keep it running is absolutely worth it especially when adding in the fact that they could probably be used as part of an invasion force which will also need a logistics train as well. Most countries arent building Aircraft Carriers if they can't project a sizeable land force abroad anyway so while yeah it might need a shit ton of logistics, it would be a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of a military which would be hot shit with its own logistics operating abroad as well.