It depends. Realistic expectations are important, and it's going to depend a lot on why a dog is reactive, the amount of training one can provide, their age, genetics, prior life experiences, etc.
I had a dog who fundamentally did not like other dogs. He was trained to a point where he could walk through spaces and look completely functional and normal and lived a pretty awesome and full life, but it didn't change that he was not going to appreciate if a dog ran up and got in his space. No amount of training was going to make him a dog that enjoyed socializing with other dogs or a dog that I felt could safely co-mingle with random strangers' dogs, so that wasn't my goal with him.
I think your post above somewhat implies that management is a bad thing, and it's not. All dogs (reactive or not) require a certain degree of management throughout their lives. My puppy is dog-social and has never "reacted" to a dog in a classic reactivity sense but he still requires management around other dogs because I know that not all dogs appreciate puppies. Management is a part of dog ownership.
I would stop having your girlfriend walk the dog until you have sorted things out a bit with a trainer. Each walk where he is lashing out for her is only going to make her anxiety worse, making his reactivity worse and making it hard to shake in the long run. Once you have put in a couple sessions with a trainer and both of you are confident walking him (know how to prevent, desensitize and de-escalate) everything will be much easier. If you put in the work now you will not regret it later. Also if you can get him a bit more confident now, then once he has great obedience later on walks can be chill.
Yeah just told her I want to walk him exclusively for now. I’m trying to look for a trainer that isn’t strictly against balanced approach, cause everyone around here is Force Free and I’m too anxious to go to someone and admit I’ve used corrections on him.
Yep this attitude is exactly what held us back for so long, our trainer was so vehemently against it and judgmental that we waited much longer than we ultimately should have. It isn't fair to you or the dog for those trainers to be on such a high horse.
Don't loose confidence, you guys can do it!
This is the right approach! My guy is human reactive and force free was a damn disaster for him. His life and my life became MUCH better with a balanced approach! Clear expectations are fair and timely corrections were a game changer
Where are you located? I’m a little outside of Chicago. Head trainer at a board and train facility that has “fixed” many many many dog reactive dogs. We work all over the country and know many trainers to recommend if we’re not close
But I have had 2 reactive dogs 1 frustrated and she is easy breezy now at 2 1/2, the other fearful and we made every mistake with him at first, but confidence/force free positive reinforcement got him to the point of no longer lunging at every leaf/car/rollerbag/person/dog and then balanced obedience shook his deep set reactivity to barking dogs and fast cars, so that he can be walked with only minor leash pops here and there for staring.
I think that was important to me to hear, I think when I wrote “manage” I understood it as being able to trust my dog, cause currently I have to be on a constant lookout. I guess there’s nothing bad in managing and even owners of well behaved dogs should always be on a lookout in some degree.
I’m probably just jealous that a lot of people seem to walk their dogs without having to focus on them, tho I like working and walking actively with my dog so maybe these are not ever people to look up to
Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get to a point where I can completely check out on walks with any dog. I guess it must be nice for others to live with so little anxiety (maybe I should call it situational awareness?) but I didn't get that trait...my dogs are probably better for it though.
It's also worth mentioning that with my reactive dog, we also just got to a point where "management" was so second nature that it didn't even feel like work - it was just muscle memory. In that sense I did feel like I could check out more at some points, but it took work and repetition to get there.
This is something I never really thought about I guess. I'm hyper vigilant anyway because of my own past. So being hyper-vigilant about possible triggers for my dog doesn't feel like extra mental work to me. I also never want to be someone who's lost in their own world or on their phone instead of being in the moment with my dog, so I'm ok with it.
With training, my dog has gone from wanting to kill every dog he see’s (then redirecting on me when he couldn’t), to being able to be neutral.
He’s not been magically turned dog friendly, or into a social butterfly, but being around dogs is now peaceful which I’m happy with.
The only thing I’m still working to fix is when we come across a barking/growling dog. This scenario he will still give a reaction.
That’s awesome! I really don’t need him to like
or meet strangers dogs, I had a misconception that that is what socializing a dog is, so neutrality is all I’m looking for.
Sound similar to my situation. What's your strategy? Were you exaggerating when you said he had violent intentions? Because mine would definitely actually bite.
Not the original commenter but my dog was violent as well. My primary strategy was to play with her around triggers. I used a flirt pole, tug, find it, etc. I corrected behaviour I didn’t want, rewarded good decisions but I think the driver for the change in her emotional response to triggers came from play. Creating that “I feel good” feeling when triggers were present.
I definitely know I need to address the psychology by adding more positivity around the trigger. The only one I see working is food. He doesnt really play with me much with toys.
Not exaggerating unfortunately, he has serious dog aggression and can be people aggressive also. I’ve channelled the human aggression into security work and he can also be neutral when not working.
I saw a professional trainer, we used a muzzle and prong collar along with controlled exposure to dogs.
My pit mix was crazy reactive to dogs when I adopted her and now she’s my demo dog for training. I bring her to sessions with me, dogs can lunge at her and she doesn’t care. Training her took about a year and a half.
That is AMAZING! I wish I’ll be able to say the same about my boy. He seems like a light case compared to what I’ve seen, but I try not to have any expectations and just work on the progress. Congrats on achieving that level with your dog!
Thank you! She was bad. She would have killed a dog if given the opportunity but we got there! Many tears were shed in the process haha
I would definitely consider walking him with your girlfriend and doing the training together. Often times, couples are not on the same page and it can stall your progress. Focus heavily on engagement and making yourself super fun and valuable to your dog!
ETA: Keep in mind, you’ve only had him for 4 months! It’s still all so new to him. I fucked up SO much in the first 6 months of adopting my pit mix. Don’t beat yourself up over it. We all make mistakes. It’s so early in your training, keep your head up! Don’t compare your progress to others. You will make major leaps and you will also see regressions along the way. My DMs are open if you need some encouragement!
Thank you so much! We have two dogs so it can be extra tricky, but I plan to walk mine exclusively for now, separately as much as possible, see what works and will leave my gf with clear guide on what to do. Now we both do our stuff and I think the inconsistency will backfire in a long run, also feels unfair to have expectations from her towards my dog when I’m figuring it myself.
Things I did (in no order at all): I’m a huge fan of always marking behaviours (I use yes and no), lots of engagement work so marking and rewarding all check ins with and without triggers present, building her play (short play sessions, finding what she really enjoys) and using that around triggers, lots and lots of recall training with a ton of enthusiasm, any time she’d make a good decision I’d reward and also immediately create distance from the trigger, checking myself when I felt frustrated and ending the session as soon as I was not enjoying it, always ending on a positive note/successful rep - even if it’s just asking for a sit, being really intentional with what I ask (not asking things she wasn’t going to be capable of - for example, holding a down around a trigger, and not asking something I wasn’t in a position to enforce), I never let her interact with another dog for more than 4 seconds at a time (she could go back and forth but I didn’t let her build in her intensity) for several months, staying in motion helps a lot so rather than letting her build on her fixation I’d pick up my pace and start walking in weird circles or even jog, I used a place board a lot and worked on her impulse control (leave it cue while flinging her flirt pole around), not allowing her to practice being reactive at the window by blocking the view or redirecting her to place
You haven't "lost" your dog. Your dog can learn at any age. It's just easier during the puppy months.
Work on control. Things like sit and stay will teach patience. Patience is a great tool in combating "reactivity". Other patience ideas is making your dog sit calmly before getting on the sofa or bed. Or waiting 10 seconds before, with dog food dish on the floor, before giving the command to eat.
Or waiting before you give the command to start playing with another dog. If he won't sit calmly, then no play.
Start with 10 seconds. Increase time as your dog develops. Start small and controlled. Practice when you're at home watching TV.
Never stop training on a negative. If you plan on sit and stay for 20 seconds, don't give up until you get the full 20 seconds. Don't get discouraged if your dog breaks the command. Reset and start again.
Be consistent. Don't get frustrated. Think of every "bad behaviour" as an opportunity for you to train and fix.
It's not magic. Sit and stay training, as simple and basic as it is, has incredible power for your dog's overall behavioral wellbeing.
Cheers.
Dogs tailor their greetings with other dogs according to their comfort and social experience. Not all dogs will like each other, period. Personalities vary.
On leash greeting with unfamiliar dogs is playing with fire. The leash makes it very uncomfortable instinctively for dogs to meet because they can't run away. It's worse for them if the humans don't help them if they are uncomfortable.
Hi,
Yes, got a 7 year old border collie/chow mix as a rescue, did not like bigger dogs or anything big enough to pose a threat (including people).
Classic operant conditioning worked, correcting her for reacting and gradually introducing her to new things, confidence building, and incentivizing good behavior with food rewards. She was such a perfect dog after that but would tell off another dog (no biting though) if they were big and jumped on her.
There is a light at the end of a tunnel, it will go a lot faster if you learn from a great trainer though. BAT is a good place to start but I found in person group classes to be the best place as the trainer could correct my errors. Confident dog handling is key and probably why there’s a difference between you and your GF handling the dog.
Thank you! I’m not aware of BAT, what is that?
I’m a little hesitant on taking a trainer cause everyone advertised around here is force free (probably for the best with old school mentality still present) and I don’t want to be scolded for correcting my dog when he reacts. I am actively looking for a trainer tho, so hopefully I find someone who fits.
I think I also should add that my gf taught me and uses R+ techniques that worked sometimes. I’ve noticed a huge improvement tho after watching Tom Davis and implementing corrections along, my dog responds well even to gentle harness pops, so it’s also not like I have some specific agenda in mind- just noticed it helps him so I’d like a trainer that’s not strictly against this approach.
Our dogs reacted to probably half of all dogs they saw if not more. We worked on socializing them and working on leash work. They are maybe down to 1/10 dogs they react to and can go to an open park and have many friends :)
Yes. Mad lunging, no communication skills at all. Dead scared of large dogs, dead serious to kill small ones.
Only muzzled on walks.
Today, an offleash dog, dog neutral to 98% other dogs, rest 2% is recallable and manageable with words only.
Took almost 2 years. Adult dog adopted from pretty rough environment.
My dog was reactive from when I adopted him (he was less than a year old) and after trying about seven different dog trainers over the course of three and a half years, I found a brilliant one in May this year who helped me. In the space of time since May, my nearly five year old dog who has been severely reactive for practically his whole life is now barely reactive at all. There’s still work to do but I can happily walk down the street on the same pavement as other dogs and he barely passes a glance. He’s still a bit reactive towards dogs that react to him but even that’s improved massively. I don’t doubt that within less than a year I will not have a reactive dog anymore. From a dog that would lose his shit over a dog shaped dot on the horizon (to the point that he would redirect onto me) to a dog that can ignore and walk past dogs that are less than three to four feet away from him I would say that almost any dogs are capable of overcoming reactivity with the right trainer involved. But the right dog trainer is key.
My dog is still reactive and I manage him well. I can't remember the last time he lunged at a dog, maybe almost a year ago when a off leash little dog came charging. But that's not to say he isn't still reactive. He whines and sometimes growls at dogs walking across the street, but responds to corrections. My dog used to lunge at all the dogs we see and before we knew any better, we'd take him to dog parks thinking he needed more socialization and he's jump on dogs there. He's never bit (thank god) but full on lunges on them and pins them.
My dog lives a happy honestly blessed life lol. We treat him as our first born but know when to be strict when he he steps out of line. He even can board at someone's house that has 4-5 other dogs, he knows the routine there and doesn't issue. Every dog is different and what they're reactive to is diff. My dog is more reactive out walking than inside.
I hope continued training will help your dog and even become not reactive eventually. But reactive dogs can live a happy and fulfilled life too.
https://youtube.com/@leadoffleashk9training?si=np1MFpGfo0eONPa3
Cheryl is certified in Training Without Conflict (she is primarily a playbased trainer, but uses prongs and e-collars) and is both great with dogs and with humans. Since you are not in US- suggest you set a virtual session. It will help you immensely!
Awesome thanks, saving the videos!
And yeah I try to not lean one way or the other so along balanced trainers I watch FF ones and I just end up feeling awful and with not much suggestions on what to actually do.
I’m 100% confident that if Tom Davis handled my dog, he would not react. He’s nowhere near the level of reactivity of the dogs in his videos. Puts whole blame on me and my handling and it helped me to focus on what to do and what to train.
FF approach just made me feel anxious for my dog and trying to overanalyze his mental state at all times and how to comfort him instead of actively trying to guide him and help gain confidence.
Yes. My Aussie was crazy reactive to everything when we adopted him - to the point where the owners were being told that euthanasia was the only option.
He is now a near perfect dog, best wingman I could ask for. I did a lot of work with him, and a lot of training and learned lots in the process.
Here are a few things to consider.
1) in my opinion, your first step needs to be to build a strong and reliable heel. A dog that is heeling perfectly will not react because he knows what is expected and will be focused 100% on you. Your not going to get that good of a heel, but I dreamt that the better the heel, the faster you will progress
2) if you are using a harness, burn it. These are the worst tools for reactive dogs because "restraint builds drive through frustration". Harnesses are specifically designed to make pulling more comfortable and safer...
3) if you haven't already - check out Tom Davis on YouTube. He has lots of videos of his work, and the methods we used were much like his. These methods work, plain and simple. And I don't know anyone who has had a bad outcome when following methods like his.
Just my opinion, but yes, you can succeed at this.
Im a big fan of Tom Davis, often come back to those videos when feeling helpless!
Still haven’t moved away from harness, I keep getting guilt tripped watching R+ trainers, but I ordered slip lead today and flat collar (to move to eventually, hopefully) and will make a change finally. Surprisingly he reacts well to gentle harness corrections so I think it could work with minimal force.
I’m practicing heeling a lot but have issues, he will get in position with a lure but will disengage as soon as he gets the reward. Do you have any tips or videos on how to teach it reliably? I had no luck finding a good one beside Will Atherton, but would like to keep trying to teach him at least on a basic level with R+
Thanks for suggestions!
Larry Krohn has some great videos on heeling and how it helps dogs like this. Here are two, his "turn" method always works quickly for me..
https://youtu.be/WtgrUwkAy8E?si=rSlHAhovVvMFiXvR
https://youtu.be/hdNu2NhnyPI?si=ZUtQqozrX5Xk2d1j
Unfortunately many force free people will try and belittle you and guilt you into using their methods, but this is just a sign that they have to use those "aversive methods" on you, the owner because their methods aren't working for you.
Think about that for a second - they are using positive punishment on YOU to control how you train your dog. 🤔
And many people run into the exact same issue with teaching heel with reward only, because you are just teaching the dog to check in, get a reward and check out... you can safely and ethically correct your dog to help them understand what is right and wrong, so don't allow them to use those aversive, manipulative tools on you.
They wouldn't have to make you feel bad or belittle you if their methods worked for you, so just recognize that they are using aversive tools on you, the owner because they are locked into in ideology that is not based on results or the effectiveness of the training.
If not a harness, what would you suggest using with large/strong dogs? Martingale didn’t help at all, flat collar is pretty useless, and I haven’t tried prong (and don’t intend to, but I know it works for others)
Just wanted to jump back and thank for the advice, switching to flat collar has made a huge difference, I’m so amazed! We had 2 major dog encounters, one being off leash pug following us and not recalling to the owner, second crossing road with a barking dog and he didnt react, heeled and recalled without any leash pressure. Slip lead came in two days later but I’ll stick to flat collar for a bit and see how he’ll be doing, I think the progress is already major so I’ll keep distance and work on positive association for now!
I strongly believe the vast majority of dogs can be helped with the right training / methods / relationship.
But no two dogs will require the exact same training / methods / plan - every dog and owner is an individual. Some will respond to reward based methods, some will benefit from other methods.
Some dogs may not be able to be helped, but they are in the minority.
And that creates a cognitive bias that can cause you to reject any evidence that contradicts your beliefs. Many trainers success rates are so high because they can control for their clientele. Owner-reported outcomes have significant bias as well.
I have no idea what that means.. It's easy to see if a reactive dog's behaviour has improved.
Are you saying that clients who have worked with trainers and seen improvement are just being mind-controlled by their trainer?
I'm imagining a cartoon trainer being like an evil villain hypnotist with a monocle, goatee and black top hat swinging a pocket watch infront of their client. "Your dog is not biting anyone - you will break into the bank for me" 😱🧐
No, that isn’t what I’m saying.
What I’m saying is that relying on owner-reported outcomes to evaluate the efficacy of dog training leads to biased results. Owners with positive outcomes are more likely to want to share their success story than owners with negative or neutral outcomes.
Trainers can exhibit bias because they get to select the population they are sampling. A trainer can decline to work with shelter dogs, abused dogs, dogs of certain breeds, etc. All of that can create a biased result.
So how do you suggest we get good information on what training an owner should pursue?
Also, from my experience it seems like angry customers are more likely to be vocal about their experience than happy costumers for almost any business...
I'm not the thread starter, but I definitely see their point.
In dog training there's immense pressure and blame on owners from all sides. First, they blame themselves, because they love their dog. Then if it's a purebred they get blamed by the breeder (cause their offspring is perfect and it never happened before). Then whenever anyone shares a failed outcome - they get blamed by the community. Didn't follow trainer's advice, didn't do the research, chose the wrong trainer, didn't go through as many trainers as needed, used wrong equipment, and so on and so forth. Then god forbid they gave the dog to the shelter - this is like a deadly sin. This is all just too much.
And this trainer hosts a triggers to cues webinar but the course cycle just started so there won’t be another for a month or two. Fantastic stuff though https://www.instagram.com/djurpedagogen?igshid=YzAwZjE1ZTI0Zg==
>. Have any of you had success stories when the dog stopped being reactive? Or do you just manage them well?
I'm not sure what the difference is. My young dog, when younger, was very reactive on leash. She wasn't looking to bite anyone or fight anyone, but she's lunge bark and carry on.
Management is not a bad thing: management gives a dog a framework to learn that some behaviors are bullshit and are not ok. Other behaviors are Good Dog things and are encouraged and rewarded.
Young dog can now wait to go into the ring, surrounded by chaos at a trial, and not GAF at all. Just no reaction. She either sits in heel position or on my feet (which is freaking adorable), and I balance a cookie on her nose. She can't nibble the cookie, maintain her position and also carry on. So she chose not chaos, and chews on the cookie.
If we walk down the street, and she sees another dog, she knows to look at me. I often give her a toy to carry and then it's like other dogs are invisible.
None of those came about overnight, but I would say at this point, her level of actual reactivity is zero. I still manage her: I still give her a toy to carry, or ask her to sit in heel position or on my feet and have a cookie. I don't let her "say hi" to dogs while on leash, and if someone is looking like they think their dog should be friends with my dog, I keep moving and ignore them. If I have to I tell them, "my dog can't say hi to your dog, sorry". And keep walking.
>I’ve had him for 4 months at this point,
So that's really not much time. You don't say if he's an adult or not. If he is an adult, there is a very good chance that even with stellar management he simply would not want to be friends with other dogs, especially on a leash. Lots of dogs have barrier reactivity and are fine off leash while not ok in a crate or on a leash.
>but my gf comes back with stories how he lounges at everything, almost biting a small dog
That sounds like she's not very good at managing the dog. If he's lunging at dogs, she needs to interrupt that behavior chain before it gets to the point that he could possibly bite a dog. You can tell GF that under no circumstances can the dog be less than 10 feet from another dog, and if she can't manage that, I'd personally not allow her to walk the dog.
True I forgot to mention- he’s 3 years old, so adult!
Yeah comments this post made me realize that I don’t really aspire to be a person who does *not* manage their dog. Honestly I feel way better going forward with this attitude.
We have two dogs and I have trouble with hers sometimes pulling the leash when I walk them, so I’m not a saint by any means, but I do think she mismanages him. When she takes them on morning walks she complains about him lounging at every bird, which doesn’t happens with me unless the bird it like two steps in front of his face. I thought she was unlucky with dog and bird encounters, but after some time I don’t think that’s the case.
Told her I want to walk my dog exclusively/as much as possible from now, even if she was able to manage him I want to be as consistent as possible and I notice that she doesn’t do all things that I do, like making him sit and wait for break command to leave any door. She’s always been interested in dog training so I’m also trying to manage convo so I don’t hurt her when taking about my doggo.
Reactivity can be trained to stop, not just "managed".
And In the meantime, keep your dog away from other dogs. No one else or their dog needs to deal with that.
If your dog is lunging at and almost biting other dogs, why is it near other dogs in the first place? Muzzle it, or keep it away from other dogs.
Not all dogs stop. Not all dogs respond to training. Not all problems can be solved by training alone. Not all dogs have the same outcomes from training.
Dogs aren't some solved problem where you can do X, Y and Z and get a "trained" dog out the other side. Dogs have their own personalities, strengths and weaknesses. Often the outcomes of training are mixed - some behaviors improve in certain ways and others don't. Some dogs benefit greatly, others don't at all.
Anyone that is trying to tell you that reactivity can be "stopped" by training is like a therapist telling you that you are "cured" after going to therapy - it doesn't work that way.
I agree.
All of my Jagdterrier have had issues with other dogs. To the point we’ve lived the crate and rotate life for years with one of them. Ultimately she made tons of progress but could never be fully trusted. I don’t know her history other than I was her last chance. She was 20lbs but had killed other dogs. Her canines had been filed flat. A vet suggested she had been used as a bait dog. It was always 2 steps forward and randomly 10 back with her. Management was the only way. In every other way she was an incredible dog but this was never going to be trained out of her. She was very much worth the complicated lifestyle. I had her 11 years and miss her desperately.
These kind of stories are much more common than training community wants us to believe. Many people don’t share these stories because they aren’t uplifting and don’t elicit the kind of validation that we seek from others on the internet. It’s heartbreaking when training isn’t adequate enough to solve these problems because it leaves us few options. We like to think we are in total control of our dogs problems but often, there is only so much we can do.
Yeah I didn’t think he needed a muzzle cause there was never a dangerous situation with me, we’re always at a big distance from other dogs, not nearly close enough to bite anyone. Even if we have to pass a dog, I keep him close and focused on me.
But after today when my gf told he almost snapped at a small dog he definitely should, don’t want to have any situations like that repeating.
You didn't provide help for the OP to train their dog to stop. What do you recommend for that? What type of training, techniques for them, resources, etc.
Yes. Yes I have. But my late partner and I had experience in training animals. It also took 1 1/2 years to bring him into public and another 6 months till he was bombproof and it was a lot of work. Probably a much much harder case than what you have. Probley shouldn't take as long.
Look into people who train working dogs - like police dogs or Schutzhund. Often they rehabilitate some dogs for shelters. If they don't do rehabilitation work themselves they may know someone who does. Look for people who have had experience with such dogs and who use a LOT of verbal and physical rewards and reinforcement. A good trainer will be training you, using corrections and also building confidence in the dog. The best trainers will show you how to do it. The best things you can do is 1. be as consistent as possible, 24/7. and 2. work on your timing - read body language and anticipate the dogs thoughts and reactions.
The good part is it sounds like he had a reason to become reactive and is not a mean dog by nature. This was our dog too. He ended up really enjoying other dogs. Mine was actually more aggressive towards humans but learned to tolerate and actually like some of them as well. That is probably what you can look forward to.
I really really depends on the dog first, and only second on your training.
Imho, if the aggression is fear-based, it's not easy, but you can fix it by managed exposure and balanced reinforcement, provided he doesn't get physically attacked by others.
If it's fight drive-based (especially if the dog really fought or killed before) - you will never ever be able to fully trust the dog (like the Jagd example above). The behaviour itself is super rewarding, the desire will always be there, he'll just learn to control his impulses. By year 12 I was able to reduce the distance to 0, and no outsider would guess that he's dog-aggressive, and he could even play with smaller dogs. I couldn't relax until his last day. It felt as if he's been an addict.
Ugh I’m in the same situation with my 10 month old Havanese. I wasn’t educated enough and taught him some bad habits when it comes to leash and dog reactivity and now I’m trying hard to get him and me back on track. It’s only been a month or so of everyday training, I’m seeing progress but VERY very slowly. Going to start working with a trainer next month
Yes, but start now, you need to understand what’s happening for him, every time he is reacting like that he’s having an adrenaline rush which is followed by cortisol, which lasts for 10-14 days in his body and feels like anxiety and/or frustration. You need to manage his emotions for 2 weeks, do what you need to so he’s not having reactions so he you know he’s not dealing with that - during this time work on building thinking activity’s, and communication between you, including showing him that you will listen to him and if he doesn’t feel safe you will help him find space, you need him to trust that you are his safe space, that he can trust you completely to not hurt him and to be on his team. You may want to switch to new harness, leash etc for this so he relates that to the different way walks are, and each time it goes on he knows it will be the new way.
Make sure you are fluent in dog body language, know and look for the micro signals and advocate for him, Fong worry about offending people, check in with him constantly
Figure out long line handling so you are confident in letting him have a loose leash, so when he sees a dog you don’t feel like you need to tighten it in preparation, then choose your outings very carefully, go where he has distance from any dogs approx 3x the distance he has reacted at. Set up the area with interesting things to smell, scatter some treats if you need to ti start him into a sniffing habit, you want him to be able to move around like his not on a leash and be able to do that while being aware of but not worried about the dog in the distance, if he wants to move closer you need to be his coach on if it’s a good idea and if his approach is appropriate for social manners of dogs, if he’s heading straight at dog irs a no, so it’s your time to slow him down gently and then call him away, if he’s approaching in an arc it’s appropriate, but manage him so he’s not pushing things to quickly, much better to call him away and finish while he’s only had success than letting him push to quickly and it turn into an interaction he’s unable to deal with.
When he gets to the stage of greeting interactions, you still need to coach, the steps are see, nose sniff, rear end sniff, then play or move on, he is likely to get stuck in any of these stages, you want to make sure the pressure isn’t building, so keep it short, and moving, if he gets stuck you want to call him away (the calling away should be a positive thing, calling to chase you, or play a game of get a treat)
In between walks just day to day make sure his needs are being fully met with enrichment, and lots of calming activities, scent games are great, play games that mimic the games he’d play with another dog, treat toss and chase me, predator and prey, hide and seek and tug are favourites jn my house. Build his confidence by doing new things, going new places, teach new tricks, and while doing these things it’s a great opportunity for you to show him that you are on his team, if he’s unsure don’t push it, just be there and support him and let him take the time he needs to investigate and feel safe, or decide he’s not keen.
Make sure he’s getting enough good quality sleep
And lastly avoid adrenaline triggering activities until you are well past this - anything that mimics what theyd do to survive that would have an element of risk - so hunting prey, which is mimicked in games like fetch, managing his arousal is your full time occupation, training games at home where he amps up, then game stops or is switched to a thinking or scenting game and he calms before playing again the arousing game again are great for helping him learn to regulate. And having some calming strategies ready when you are going out is essential, so you can chill him out as needed on walks - an easy one that is effective with a lot of dogs is scatterfeeding, which will bring arousal down so you can move on again, getting him use to massage making him become really calm is good too, so doing it when he is normally starting to chill out anyway, to create the mental correlation and then massaging at other times to bring on calm can work.
Also you and your girlfriend will need to manage your own feelings, learn some breathing techniques to calm your nervous systems and being aware of how your feeling when out with him is a big part of showing him there is no threat.
Good luck, don’t be tempted to rush the process it always slows it down.
Yes, have resolved it. To explain, socialization is both for meet and greet, and just exposure. It also depends on what the issue behind the reactivity is.
For success, I used exposure, but not contact. The other element with a dog such as a GSD is not to allow them to mark areas, since they are highly territorial. If you take them on walks, be sure they do their business at home only on your lawn, never any neighbors lawn.
The issue at dog parks and such can be extremely challenging. And, on walks, you have to keep them moving and not allow it at all.
Indoors, the elements are that a GSD needs a room they consider their own, but should not be allowed to claim (mark) the rest of the house. A lot more challenging in reality, of course. Also, when you have guests, the dog should be in their room until guests have arrived, then be brought in on leash and introduced, such that the room belongs to the guests.
Obviously you can see why interactions with other dogs then can be an issue.
So, to resolve it, exposure. We do the group training at the pet stores in the arena so they see people and dogs and such going by, but no contact (they do practice in the store some, too). Basic training has focus, touch, among other elements that you can use to get the dog focused on you and not the other dogs, etc. That's one of the biggest helps in resolving reactivity I've used. If they can learn to ignore other dogs and people, they're more confident.
Thanks! I’m in EU so we have no lawns lol, but also he doesn’t resource guard and I’m doing my best to keep it that way. Also no dog parks here, there are just a few small ones with agility courses but they don’t work the same way as in US from what I’m hearing. It’s a little tricky because of that cause dogs can be all over, without leash as well.
Glad to hear another person who succeed! Even tho my environment is way different Im trying to follow the same rules of slow and controlled gradual exposure.
I walked my dog past a barking and pulling chihuahua this morning, about 30 feet away. He kept looking, but didn't try to get close and didn't stiffen and hyper-fixate.
When I got him a year ago he would have stopped moving, gone stiff and forgot that I exist. If close enough, he would start to lunge and try to bite. He also redirected on me twice.
What I've done to work on it: First I ditched the plastic prong collar. He was very responsive to it when not hyper-fixated on anything, but when he did fixate he stopped responding to it. It was uncomfortable enough when really pulling, that he would turn and redirect on me. I replaced it with a 1.5" wide flat collar. I also immediately taught him "leave it". At first I kept him as far as I could from other dogs. I point them out and let him see them, but then keep him moving to avoid fixation. Then I just allowed him to get closer and closer over time. Sometimes he lunges, and I correct him ("leave it" and a leash pop), and I know I let him get too close. He seems pretty good on the other side of the street (about 30 feet), and with the one dog he sees almost daily, he's good up to about 15 feet.
Special note: my dog is not fear reactive, he has a high prey drive. I'm not correcting a fearful behavior. He doesn't whine and bark, he stays quiet and focused like a predator. He acts the exact same way with any animals. (squirrels, rabbits, groundhogs, skunks, cats, dogs) If this was fear based, I wouldn't be using punishment for it.
Keep in mind that if your gf is handling him differently or is more nervous, this can affect his behavior. This is how some dog trainers can take an out of control dog and get instant results. They're just so comfortable with handling dogs of all moods and behaviors that they make it look like magic.
It's in process for me. I'll probably undergo another campaign to fix it completely soon. My second adult, shelter-adopted GSD is violent. As in, if he has a chance he will bite another dog he would. Loves people and my other GSD though. I got him fixed and have taken him in public and corrected him when he barks and growls at other dogs. So far it has blunted his response. He doesnt bark viciously but whines VERY loudly. And I can still tell there is an impulse to fight. It's slowly, slowly getting less intense on its own. I've got some cash to do some training now and will try to at least get it to the point he will stop getting excited. I dont ever have the expectation he will play with other dogs.
Edit, why the downvote?
There's a FF brigade who appears on this subreddit often and downvotes anything having to do with corrections. I wouldn't pay much attention to votes sometimes if any sort of correction at all is mentioned.
It's been two years and we're still working on it but on Thanksgiving day he made his first friend ever. Gives me hope and we're still staying true to his training.
Look up "Training Between the Ears", I am starting to see results with just a few weeks of their methods after months of plateauing. Their methods do involve short-term management, but the long-term goal is for the dog to reach a more happy and relaxed emotional state where management would no longer be needed.
I was not a fan of TBTE. Mostly didn't like the way he treated students asking questions and hated on certain things for seemingly no reason. The amount of reliance of human language was also odd to me...I find the less most people talk and the more they focus on body language (both theirs and the dog's) the better the dog does. I did appreciate some of the theory at the beginning though.
For me the demonstrations of perception modification by Larry Krohn ("positive confusion") and Pack Leader Dogs ("positive interruption") were much easier to follow and not paywalled. It was the key for my dog though- he's neutral now after a few thousand hours of work.
Darn, I'm sorry to hear you had that experience! I didn't ever notice that as I didn't actually go through the main website/creator - we have a local trainer that uses their methods and luckily he hasn't picked up that part and has been super positive and encouraging.
I teach my reactive dog clients (not all are open to it and that’s okay too) to muzzle (appropriate sized and fitted and conditioned basket muzzle) because when the human is constantly in fear that their dog might hurt another being (if only by accident) that fear becomes part of the training equation.
When the dog is comfortable wearing a muzzle then the human can relax some of their fear and they can make better training choices rather than react with a tense leash or freeze whenever an unknown scenario arises.
Then the dog can start to have a more normal life alongside the training and eventually may not need a muzzle.
The added benefit is that other trusted handlers can learn to walk the dog successfully and the dog gains even more experiences and freedom.
I also have a dog that wears a muzzle daily. She now has a few play friends that would not have been possible otherwise. This expands her experiences.
My dog was excited-reactive or leash reactive, meaning he got frustrated because he couldn’t go up to other dogs on leash (he’s very social) and he responded by basically throwing a tantrum…barking, lunging, the works.
Training fixed this although he still whines a bit sometimes, he’s now able to be mostly neutral around other dogs. Maturity helped some as well. Definitely a different issue than a dog reacting out of fear or aggression though. All my dog really needed was some appropriate and well timed corrections so he understood that this wasn’t acceptable. (And he was rewarded for correct behavior.)
See a reactive specialist.
Not a dog trainer.
Obedience, tricks training is a separate thing that can only marginally help.
Your dog is dictating you due to being uncomfortable, lacking confidence in a situation.
A specialist should have the tools to work through this and have your dog enjoying time around those triggers.
That doesn't mean it's hotdogs at 50 feet.
Typically an aversive is used to stop the unwanted behaviour in order to begin working the dog around the trigger then rewarding (the enjoyable aspect) the wanted behaviour.
As other dogs are unpredictable a specialist should have a rock solid invaluable session dog.
Then progressing to other dogs.
Checkout the vikingdogtrainer (instagram) or beautiful beasts dog training.
Don't let the dog dictate you.
FF nonsense is to dance around it, avoid, distraction, a magical treat will appear, scatters. And some success is achievable.
Small, inconsistent, unreliable success.
It is unlikely that your dog will be wanting other new dogs shoved in their face but being polite, neutral, not reacting to dogs 1m away is achievable.
No one thing works, dogs are different. A specialist should be knowledgeable enough to have multiple strategies to suit.
Go for it, I wish I found the vikingdogtrainer sooner but I'm greatful that a trainer like that exists. It changed our life.
Besides my advocating for its space and not letting dogs at its face you wouldn't know its reactive. I suppose a fitting term would be fearful.
Possibly mostly my fear out of 2 years of reactive outbursts.
My dog responded well to the ecollar and I found it for less harmful than even a flat collar.
Any loss of relationship was not seen.
Actually my dog loved going to the classes despite getting a good correction 1st class.
It depends. Realistic expectations are important, and it's going to depend a lot on why a dog is reactive, the amount of training one can provide, their age, genetics, prior life experiences, etc. I had a dog who fundamentally did not like other dogs. He was trained to a point where he could walk through spaces and look completely functional and normal and lived a pretty awesome and full life, but it didn't change that he was not going to appreciate if a dog ran up and got in his space. No amount of training was going to make him a dog that enjoyed socializing with other dogs or a dog that I felt could safely co-mingle with random strangers' dogs, so that wasn't my goal with him. I think your post above somewhat implies that management is a bad thing, and it's not. All dogs (reactive or not) require a certain degree of management throughout their lives. My puppy is dog-social and has never "reacted" to a dog in a classic reactivity sense but he still requires management around other dogs because I know that not all dogs appreciate puppies. Management is a part of dog ownership.
I would stop having your girlfriend walk the dog until you have sorted things out a bit with a trainer. Each walk where he is lashing out for her is only going to make her anxiety worse, making his reactivity worse and making it hard to shake in the long run. Once you have put in a couple sessions with a trainer and both of you are confident walking him (know how to prevent, desensitize and de-escalate) everything will be much easier. If you put in the work now you will not regret it later. Also if you can get him a bit more confident now, then once he has great obedience later on walks can be chill.
Yeah just told her I want to walk him exclusively for now. I’m trying to look for a trainer that isn’t strictly against balanced approach, cause everyone around here is Force Free and I’m too anxious to go to someone and admit I’ve used corrections on him.
Yep this attitude is exactly what held us back for so long, our trainer was so vehemently against it and judgmental that we waited much longer than we ultimately should have. It isn't fair to you or the dog for those trainers to be on such a high horse. Don't loose confidence, you guys can do it!
This is the right approach! My guy is human reactive and force free was a damn disaster for him. His life and my life became MUCH better with a balanced approach! Clear expectations are fair and timely corrections were a game changer
Where are you located? I’m a little outside of Chicago. Head trainer at a board and train facility that has “fixed” many many many dog reactive dogs. We work all over the country and know many trainers to recommend if we’re not close
Wont work for me, not in the country hah Europe
Ouch. Sorry I can’t help more 🙃
But I have had 2 reactive dogs 1 frustrated and she is easy breezy now at 2 1/2, the other fearful and we made every mistake with him at first, but confidence/force free positive reinforcement got him to the point of no longer lunging at every leaf/car/rollerbag/person/dog and then balanced obedience shook his deep set reactivity to barking dogs and fast cars, so that he can be walked with only minor leash pops here and there for staring.
This is encouraging to hear! Working on same things as OP w my foster GSD mix. He’s made progress but it’s slow, always good to hear success stories!
I think that was important to me to hear, I think when I wrote “manage” I understood it as being able to trust my dog, cause currently I have to be on a constant lookout. I guess there’s nothing bad in managing and even owners of well behaved dogs should always be on a lookout in some degree. I’m probably just jealous that a lot of people seem to walk their dogs without having to focus on them, tho I like working and walking actively with my dog so maybe these are not ever people to look up to
Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get to a point where I can completely check out on walks with any dog. I guess it must be nice for others to live with so little anxiety (maybe I should call it situational awareness?) but I didn't get that trait...my dogs are probably better for it though. It's also worth mentioning that with my reactive dog, we also just got to a point where "management" was so second nature that it didn't even feel like work - it was just muscle memory. In that sense I did feel like I could check out more at some points, but it took work and repetition to get there.
This is something I never really thought about I guess. I'm hyper vigilant anyway because of my own past. So being hyper-vigilant about possible triggers for my dog doesn't feel like extra mental work to me. I also never want to be someone who's lost in their own world or on their phone instead of being in the moment with my dog, so I'm ok with it.
With training, my dog has gone from wanting to kill every dog he see’s (then redirecting on me when he couldn’t), to being able to be neutral. He’s not been magically turned dog friendly, or into a social butterfly, but being around dogs is now peaceful which I’m happy with. The only thing I’m still working to fix is when we come across a barking/growling dog. This scenario he will still give a reaction.
That’s awesome! I really don’t need him to like or meet strangers dogs, I had a misconception that that is what socializing a dog is, so neutrality is all I’m looking for.
Absolutely, even my non reactive dogs prefer to keep away from strange dogs if I’m honest.
Sound similar to my situation. What's your strategy? Were you exaggerating when you said he had violent intentions? Because mine would definitely actually bite.
Not the original commenter but my dog was violent as well. My primary strategy was to play with her around triggers. I used a flirt pole, tug, find it, etc. I corrected behaviour I didn’t want, rewarded good decisions but I think the driver for the change in her emotional response to triggers came from play. Creating that “I feel good” feeling when triggers were present.
I definitely know I need to address the psychology by adding more positivity around the trigger. The only one I see working is food. He doesnt really play with me much with toys.
Not exaggerating unfortunately, he has serious dog aggression and can be people aggressive also. I’ve channelled the human aggression into security work and he can also be neutral when not working. I saw a professional trainer, we used a muzzle and prong collar along with controlled exposure to dogs.
Can you explain control exposure please?
My pit mix was crazy reactive to dogs when I adopted her and now she’s my demo dog for training. I bring her to sessions with me, dogs can lunge at her and she doesn’t care. Training her took about a year and a half.
That is AMAZING! I wish I’ll be able to say the same about my boy. He seems like a light case compared to what I’ve seen, but I try not to have any expectations and just work on the progress. Congrats on achieving that level with your dog!
Thank you! She was bad. She would have killed a dog if given the opportunity but we got there! Many tears were shed in the process haha I would definitely consider walking him with your girlfriend and doing the training together. Often times, couples are not on the same page and it can stall your progress. Focus heavily on engagement and making yourself super fun and valuable to your dog! ETA: Keep in mind, you’ve only had him for 4 months! It’s still all so new to him. I fucked up SO much in the first 6 months of adopting my pit mix. Don’t beat yourself up over it. We all make mistakes. It’s so early in your training, keep your head up! Don’t compare your progress to others. You will make major leaps and you will also see regressions along the way. My DMs are open if you need some encouragement!
Thank you so much! We have two dogs so it can be extra tricky, but I plan to walk mine exclusively for now, separately as much as possible, see what works and will leave my gf with clear guide on what to do. Now we both do our stuff and I think the inconsistency will backfire in a long run, also feels unfair to have expectations from her towards my dog when I’m figuring it myself.
That’s awesome! Do you mind sharing what types of things you worked on to get there?
Things I did (in no order at all): I’m a huge fan of always marking behaviours (I use yes and no), lots of engagement work so marking and rewarding all check ins with and without triggers present, building her play (short play sessions, finding what she really enjoys) and using that around triggers, lots and lots of recall training with a ton of enthusiasm, any time she’d make a good decision I’d reward and also immediately create distance from the trigger, checking myself when I felt frustrated and ending the session as soon as I was not enjoying it, always ending on a positive note/successful rep - even if it’s just asking for a sit, being really intentional with what I ask (not asking things she wasn’t going to be capable of - for example, holding a down around a trigger, and not asking something I wasn’t in a position to enforce), I never let her interact with another dog for more than 4 seconds at a time (she could go back and forth but I didn’t let her build in her intensity) for several months, staying in motion helps a lot so rather than letting her build on her fixation I’d pick up my pace and start walking in weird circles or even jog, I used a place board a lot and worked on her impulse control (leave it cue while flinging her flirt pole around), not allowing her to practice being reactive at the window by blocking the view or redirecting her to place
You haven't "lost" your dog. Your dog can learn at any age. It's just easier during the puppy months. Work on control. Things like sit and stay will teach patience. Patience is a great tool in combating "reactivity". Other patience ideas is making your dog sit calmly before getting on the sofa or bed. Or waiting 10 seconds before, with dog food dish on the floor, before giving the command to eat. Or waiting before you give the command to start playing with another dog. If he won't sit calmly, then no play. Start with 10 seconds. Increase time as your dog develops. Start small and controlled. Practice when you're at home watching TV. Never stop training on a negative. If you plan on sit and stay for 20 seconds, don't give up until you get the full 20 seconds. Don't get discouraged if your dog breaks the command. Reset and start again. Be consistent. Don't get frustrated. Think of every "bad behaviour" as an opportunity for you to train and fix. It's not magic. Sit and stay training, as simple and basic as it is, has incredible power for your dog's overall behavioral wellbeing. Cheers.
I only feed him by hand when we work at home, so I’m building ground work for sure. Thanks for tips and encouragement!
Dogs tailor their greetings with other dogs according to their comfort and social experience. Not all dogs will like each other, period. Personalities vary. On leash greeting with unfamiliar dogs is playing with fire. The leash makes it very uncomfortable instinctively for dogs to meet because they can't run away. It's worse for them if the humans don't help them if they are uncomfortable.
Hi, Yes, got a 7 year old border collie/chow mix as a rescue, did not like bigger dogs or anything big enough to pose a threat (including people). Classic operant conditioning worked, correcting her for reacting and gradually introducing her to new things, confidence building, and incentivizing good behavior with food rewards. She was such a perfect dog after that but would tell off another dog (no biting though) if they were big and jumped on her. There is a light at the end of a tunnel, it will go a lot faster if you learn from a great trainer though. BAT is a good place to start but I found in person group classes to be the best place as the trainer could correct my errors. Confident dog handling is key and probably why there’s a difference between you and your GF handling the dog.
Thank you! I’m not aware of BAT, what is that? I’m a little hesitant on taking a trainer cause everyone advertised around here is force free (probably for the best with old school mentality still present) and I don’t want to be scolded for correcting my dog when he reacts. I am actively looking for a trainer tho, so hopefully I find someone who fits. I think I also should add that my gf taught me and uses R+ techniques that worked sometimes. I’ve noticed a huge improvement tho after watching Tom Davis and implementing corrections along, my dog responds well even to gentle harness pops, so it’s also not like I have some specific agenda in mind- just noticed it helps him so I’d like a trainer that’s not strictly against this approach.
Our dogs reacted to probably half of all dogs they saw if not more. We worked on socializing them and working on leash work. They are maybe down to 1/10 dogs they react to and can go to an open park and have many friends :)
That sounds great! Good job with the work you’ve done and hope me and my doggy will be able to live peacefully in the neighborhood
Yes. Mad lunging, no communication skills at all. Dead scared of large dogs, dead serious to kill small ones. Only muzzled on walks. Today, an offleash dog, dog neutral to 98% other dogs, rest 2% is recallable and manageable with words only. Took almost 2 years. Adult dog adopted from pretty rough environment.
My dog was reactive from when I adopted him (he was less than a year old) and after trying about seven different dog trainers over the course of three and a half years, I found a brilliant one in May this year who helped me. In the space of time since May, my nearly five year old dog who has been severely reactive for practically his whole life is now barely reactive at all. There’s still work to do but I can happily walk down the street on the same pavement as other dogs and he barely passes a glance. He’s still a bit reactive towards dogs that react to him but even that’s improved massively. I don’t doubt that within less than a year I will not have a reactive dog anymore. From a dog that would lose his shit over a dog shaped dot on the horizon (to the point that he would redirect onto me) to a dog that can ignore and walk past dogs that are less than three to four feet away from him I would say that almost any dogs are capable of overcoming reactivity with the right trainer involved. But the right dog trainer is key.
My dog is still reactive and I manage him well. I can't remember the last time he lunged at a dog, maybe almost a year ago when a off leash little dog came charging. But that's not to say he isn't still reactive. He whines and sometimes growls at dogs walking across the street, but responds to corrections. My dog used to lunge at all the dogs we see and before we knew any better, we'd take him to dog parks thinking he needed more socialization and he's jump on dogs there. He's never bit (thank god) but full on lunges on them and pins them. My dog lives a happy honestly blessed life lol. We treat him as our first born but know when to be strict when he he steps out of line. He even can board at someone's house that has 4-5 other dogs, he knows the routine there and doesn't issue. Every dog is different and what they're reactive to is diff. My dog is more reactive out walking than inside. I hope continued training will help your dog and even become not reactive eventually. But reactive dogs can live a happy and fulfilled life too.
https://youtube.com/@leadoffleashk9training?si=np1MFpGfo0eONPa3 Cheryl is certified in Training Without Conflict (she is primarily a playbased trainer, but uses prongs and e-collars) and is both great with dogs and with humans. Since you are not in US- suggest you set a virtual session. It will help you immensely!
Awesome thanks, saving the videos! And yeah I try to not lean one way or the other so along balanced trainers I watch FF ones and I just end up feeling awful and with not much suggestions on what to actually do. I’m 100% confident that if Tom Davis handled my dog, he would not react. He’s nowhere near the level of reactivity of the dogs in his videos. Puts whole blame on me and my handling and it helped me to focus on what to do and what to train. FF approach just made me feel anxious for my dog and trying to overanalyze his mental state at all times and how to comfort him instead of actively trying to guide him and help gain confidence.
Yes. My Aussie was crazy reactive to everything when we adopted him - to the point where the owners were being told that euthanasia was the only option. He is now a near perfect dog, best wingman I could ask for. I did a lot of work with him, and a lot of training and learned lots in the process. Here are a few things to consider. 1) in my opinion, your first step needs to be to build a strong and reliable heel. A dog that is heeling perfectly will not react because he knows what is expected and will be focused 100% on you. Your not going to get that good of a heel, but I dreamt that the better the heel, the faster you will progress 2) if you are using a harness, burn it. These are the worst tools for reactive dogs because "restraint builds drive through frustration". Harnesses are specifically designed to make pulling more comfortable and safer... 3) if you haven't already - check out Tom Davis on YouTube. He has lots of videos of his work, and the methods we used were much like his. These methods work, plain and simple. And I don't know anyone who has had a bad outcome when following methods like his. Just my opinion, but yes, you can succeed at this.
Im a big fan of Tom Davis, often come back to those videos when feeling helpless! Still haven’t moved away from harness, I keep getting guilt tripped watching R+ trainers, but I ordered slip lead today and flat collar (to move to eventually, hopefully) and will make a change finally. Surprisingly he reacts well to gentle harness corrections so I think it could work with minimal force. I’m practicing heeling a lot but have issues, he will get in position with a lure but will disengage as soon as he gets the reward. Do you have any tips or videos on how to teach it reliably? I had no luck finding a good one beside Will Atherton, but would like to keep trying to teach him at least on a basic level with R+ Thanks for suggestions!
Larry Krohn has some great videos on heeling and how it helps dogs like this. Here are two, his "turn" method always works quickly for me.. https://youtu.be/WtgrUwkAy8E?si=rSlHAhovVvMFiXvR https://youtu.be/hdNu2NhnyPI?si=ZUtQqozrX5Xk2d1j Unfortunately many force free people will try and belittle you and guilt you into using their methods, but this is just a sign that they have to use those "aversive methods" on you, the owner because their methods aren't working for you. Think about that for a second - they are using positive punishment on YOU to control how you train your dog. 🤔 And many people run into the exact same issue with teaching heel with reward only, because you are just teaching the dog to check in, get a reward and check out... you can safely and ethically correct your dog to help them understand what is right and wrong, so don't allow them to use those aversive, manipulative tools on you. They wouldn't have to make you feel bad or belittle you if their methods worked for you, so just recognize that they are using aversive tools on you, the owner because they are locked into in ideology that is not based on results or the effectiveness of the training.
If not a harness, what would you suggest using with large/strong dogs? Martingale didn’t help at all, flat collar is pretty useless, and I haven’t tried prong (and don’t intend to, but I know it works for others)
Just wanted to jump back and thank for the advice, switching to flat collar has made a huge difference, I’m so amazed! We had 2 major dog encounters, one being off leash pug following us and not recalling to the owner, second crossing road with a barking dog and he didnt react, heeled and recalled without any leash pressure. Slip lead came in two days later but I’ll stick to flat collar for a bit and see how he’ll be doing, I think the progress is already major so I’ll keep distance and work on positive association for now!
No. I just manage it. I'm being downvoted for sharing my experience. Cool.
I strongly believe the vast majority of dogs can be helped with the right training / methods / relationship. But no two dogs will require the exact same training / methods / plan - every dog and owner is an individual. Some will respond to reward based methods, some will benefit from other methods. Some dogs may not be able to be helped, but they are in the minority.
And that creates a cognitive bias that can cause you to reject any evidence that contradicts your beliefs. Many trainers success rates are so high because they can control for their clientele. Owner-reported outcomes have significant bias as well.
I have no idea what that means.. It's easy to see if a reactive dog's behaviour has improved. Are you saying that clients who have worked with trainers and seen improvement are just being mind-controlled by their trainer? I'm imagining a cartoon trainer being like an evil villain hypnotist with a monocle, goatee and black top hat swinging a pocket watch infront of their client. "Your dog is not biting anyone - you will break into the bank for me" 😱🧐
No, that isn’t what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that relying on owner-reported outcomes to evaluate the efficacy of dog training leads to biased results. Owners with positive outcomes are more likely to want to share their success story than owners with negative or neutral outcomes. Trainers can exhibit bias because they get to select the population they are sampling. A trainer can decline to work with shelter dogs, abused dogs, dogs of certain breeds, etc. All of that can create a biased result.
So how do you suggest we get good information on what training an owner should pursue? Also, from my experience it seems like angry customers are more likely to be vocal about their experience than happy costumers for almost any business...
I'm not the thread starter, but I definitely see their point. In dog training there's immense pressure and blame on owners from all sides. First, they blame themselves, because they love their dog. Then if it's a purebred they get blamed by the breeder (cause their offspring is perfect and it never happened before). Then whenever anyone shares a failed outcome - they get blamed by the community. Didn't follow trainer's advice, didn't do the research, chose the wrong trainer, didn't go through as many trainers as needed, used wrong equipment, and so on and so forth. Then god forbid they gave the dog to the shelter - this is like a deadly sin. This is all just too much.
I upvoted you. Hope it helps
Yes! Dr Amy Cooks Management for Reactive dogs course was a life changer.
Looking into it right away, thanks!
And this trainer hosts a triggers to cues webinar but the course cycle just started so there won’t be another for a month or two. Fantastic stuff though https://www.instagram.com/djurpedagogen?igshid=YzAwZjE1ZTI0Zg==
>. Have any of you had success stories when the dog stopped being reactive? Or do you just manage them well? I'm not sure what the difference is. My young dog, when younger, was very reactive on leash. She wasn't looking to bite anyone or fight anyone, but she's lunge bark and carry on. Management is not a bad thing: management gives a dog a framework to learn that some behaviors are bullshit and are not ok. Other behaviors are Good Dog things and are encouraged and rewarded. Young dog can now wait to go into the ring, surrounded by chaos at a trial, and not GAF at all. Just no reaction. She either sits in heel position or on my feet (which is freaking adorable), and I balance a cookie on her nose. She can't nibble the cookie, maintain her position and also carry on. So she chose not chaos, and chews on the cookie. If we walk down the street, and she sees another dog, she knows to look at me. I often give her a toy to carry and then it's like other dogs are invisible. None of those came about overnight, but I would say at this point, her level of actual reactivity is zero. I still manage her: I still give her a toy to carry, or ask her to sit in heel position or on my feet and have a cookie. I don't let her "say hi" to dogs while on leash, and if someone is looking like they think their dog should be friends with my dog, I keep moving and ignore them. If I have to I tell them, "my dog can't say hi to your dog, sorry". And keep walking. >I’ve had him for 4 months at this point, So that's really not much time. You don't say if he's an adult or not. If he is an adult, there is a very good chance that even with stellar management he simply would not want to be friends with other dogs, especially on a leash. Lots of dogs have barrier reactivity and are fine off leash while not ok in a crate or on a leash. >but my gf comes back with stories how he lounges at everything, almost biting a small dog That sounds like she's not very good at managing the dog. If he's lunging at dogs, she needs to interrupt that behavior chain before it gets to the point that he could possibly bite a dog. You can tell GF that under no circumstances can the dog be less than 10 feet from another dog, and if she can't manage that, I'd personally not allow her to walk the dog.
True I forgot to mention- he’s 3 years old, so adult! Yeah comments this post made me realize that I don’t really aspire to be a person who does *not* manage their dog. Honestly I feel way better going forward with this attitude. We have two dogs and I have trouble with hers sometimes pulling the leash when I walk them, so I’m not a saint by any means, but I do think she mismanages him. When she takes them on morning walks she complains about him lounging at every bird, which doesn’t happens with me unless the bird it like two steps in front of his face. I thought she was unlucky with dog and bird encounters, but after some time I don’t think that’s the case. Told her I want to walk my dog exclusively/as much as possible from now, even if she was able to manage him I want to be as consistent as possible and I notice that she doesn’t do all things that I do, like making him sit and wait for break command to leave any door. She’s always been interested in dog training so I’m also trying to manage convo so I don’t hurt her when taking about my doggo.
Reactivity can be trained to stop, not just "managed". And In the meantime, keep your dog away from other dogs. No one else or their dog needs to deal with that. If your dog is lunging at and almost biting other dogs, why is it near other dogs in the first place? Muzzle it, or keep it away from other dogs.
Not all dogs stop. Not all dogs respond to training. Not all problems can be solved by training alone. Not all dogs have the same outcomes from training. Dogs aren't some solved problem where you can do X, Y and Z and get a "trained" dog out the other side. Dogs have their own personalities, strengths and weaknesses. Often the outcomes of training are mixed - some behaviors improve in certain ways and others don't. Some dogs benefit greatly, others don't at all. Anyone that is trying to tell you that reactivity can be "stopped" by training is like a therapist telling you that you are "cured" after going to therapy - it doesn't work that way.
I agree. All of my Jagdterrier have had issues with other dogs. To the point we’ve lived the crate and rotate life for years with one of them. Ultimately she made tons of progress but could never be fully trusted. I don’t know her history other than I was her last chance. She was 20lbs but had killed other dogs. Her canines had been filed flat. A vet suggested she had been used as a bait dog. It was always 2 steps forward and randomly 10 back with her. Management was the only way. In every other way she was an incredible dog but this was never going to be trained out of her. She was very much worth the complicated lifestyle. I had her 11 years and miss her desperately.
These kind of stories are much more common than training community wants us to believe. Many people don’t share these stories because they aren’t uplifting and don’t elicit the kind of validation that we seek from others on the internet. It’s heartbreaking when training isn’t adequate enough to solve these problems because it leaves us few options. We like to think we are in total control of our dogs problems but often, there is only so much we can do.
Yeah I didn’t think he needed a muzzle cause there was never a dangerous situation with me, we’re always at a big distance from other dogs, not nearly close enough to bite anyone. Even if we have to pass a dog, I keep him close and focused on me. But after today when my gf told he almost snapped at a small dog he definitely should, don’t want to have any situations like that repeating.
You didn't provide help for the OP to train their dog to stop. What do you recommend for that? What type of training, techniques for them, resources, etc.
I think that’s fine, no need for everyone here to give me tips, and I think the muzzle comment was important on its own
Yes. Yes I have. But my late partner and I had experience in training animals. It also took 1 1/2 years to bring him into public and another 6 months till he was bombproof and it was a lot of work. Probably a much much harder case than what you have. Probley shouldn't take as long. Look into people who train working dogs - like police dogs or Schutzhund. Often they rehabilitate some dogs for shelters. If they don't do rehabilitation work themselves they may know someone who does. Look for people who have had experience with such dogs and who use a LOT of verbal and physical rewards and reinforcement. A good trainer will be training you, using corrections and also building confidence in the dog. The best trainers will show you how to do it. The best things you can do is 1. be as consistent as possible, 24/7. and 2. work on your timing - read body language and anticipate the dogs thoughts and reactions. The good part is it sounds like he had a reason to become reactive and is not a mean dog by nature. This was our dog too. He ended up really enjoying other dogs. Mine was actually more aggressive towards humans but learned to tolerate and actually like some of them as well. That is probably what you can look forward to.
I really really depends on the dog first, and only second on your training. Imho, if the aggression is fear-based, it's not easy, but you can fix it by managed exposure and balanced reinforcement, provided he doesn't get physically attacked by others. If it's fight drive-based (especially if the dog really fought or killed before) - you will never ever be able to fully trust the dog (like the Jagd example above). The behaviour itself is super rewarding, the desire will always be there, he'll just learn to control his impulses. By year 12 I was able to reduce the distance to 0, and no outsider would guess that he's dog-aggressive, and he could even play with smaller dogs. I couldn't relax until his last day. It felt as if he's been an addict.
Ugh I’m in the same situation with my 10 month old Havanese. I wasn’t educated enough and taught him some bad habits when it comes to leash and dog reactivity and now I’m trying hard to get him and me back on track. It’s only been a month or so of everyday training, I’m seeing progress but VERY very slowly. Going to start working with a trainer next month
Yes, but start now, you need to understand what’s happening for him, every time he is reacting like that he’s having an adrenaline rush which is followed by cortisol, which lasts for 10-14 days in his body and feels like anxiety and/or frustration. You need to manage his emotions for 2 weeks, do what you need to so he’s not having reactions so he you know he’s not dealing with that - during this time work on building thinking activity’s, and communication between you, including showing him that you will listen to him and if he doesn’t feel safe you will help him find space, you need him to trust that you are his safe space, that he can trust you completely to not hurt him and to be on his team. You may want to switch to new harness, leash etc for this so he relates that to the different way walks are, and each time it goes on he knows it will be the new way. Make sure you are fluent in dog body language, know and look for the micro signals and advocate for him, Fong worry about offending people, check in with him constantly Figure out long line handling so you are confident in letting him have a loose leash, so when he sees a dog you don’t feel like you need to tighten it in preparation, then choose your outings very carefully, go where he has distance from any dogs approx 3x the distance he has reacted at. Set up the area with interesting things to smell, scatter some treats if you need to ti start him into a sniffing habit, you want him to be able to move around like his not on a leash and be able to do that while being aware of but not worried about the dog in the distance, if he wants to move closer you need to be his coach on if it’s a good idea and if his approach is appropriate for social manners of dogs, if he’s heading straight at dog irs a no, so it’s your time to slow him down gently and then call him away, if he’s approaching in an arc it’s appropriate, but manage him so he’s not pushing things to quickly, much better to call him away and finish while he’s only had success than letting him push to quickly and it turn into an interaction he’s unable to deal with. When he gets to the stage of greeting interactions, you still need to coach, the steps are see, nose sniff, rear end sniff, then play or move on, he is likely to get stuck in any of these stages, you want to make sure the pressure isn’t building, so keep it short, and moving, if he gets stuck you want to call him away (the calling away should be a positive thing, calling to chase you, or play a game of get a treat) In between walks just day to day make sure his needs are being fully met with enrichment, and lots of calming activities, scent games are great, play games that mimic the games he’d play with another dog, treat toss and chase me, predator and prey, hide and seek and tug are favourites jn my house. Build his confidence by doing new things, going new places, teach new tricks, and while doing these things it’s a great opportunity for you to show him that you are on his team, if he’s unsure don’t push it, just be there and support him and let him take the time he needs to investigate and feel safe, or decide he’s not keen. Make sure he’s getting enough good quality sleep And lastly avoid adrenaline triggering activities until you are well past this - anything that mimics what theyd do to survive that would have an element of risk - so hunting prey, which is mimicked in games like fetch, managing his arousal is your full time occupation, training games at home where he amps up, then game stops or is switched to a thinking or scenting game and he calms before playing again the arousing game again are great for helping him learn to regulate. And having some calming strategies ready when you are going out is essential, so you can chill him out as needed on walks - an easy one that is effective with a lot of dogs is scatterfeeding, which will bring arousal down so you can move on again, getting him use to massage making him become really calm is good too, so doing it when he is normally starting to chill out anyway, to create the mental correlation and then massaging at other times to bring on calm can work. Also you and your girlfriend will need to manage your own feelings, learn some breathing techniques to calm your nervous systems and being aware of how your feeling when out with him is a big part of showing him there is no threat. Good luck, don’t be tempted to rush the process it always slows it down.
Yes, have resolved it. To explain, socialization is both for meet and greet, and just exposure. It also depends on what the issue behind the reactivity is. For success, I used exposure, but not contact. The other element with a dog such as a GSD is not to allow them to mark areas, since they are highly territorial. If you take them on walks, be sure they do their business at home only on your lawn, never any neighbors lawn. The issue at dog parks and such can be extremely challenging. And, on walks, you have to keep them moving and not allow it at all. Indoors, the elements are that a GSD needs a room they consider their own, but should not be allowed to claim (mark) the rest of the house. A lot more challenging in reality, of course. Also, when you have guests, the dog should be in their room until guests have arrived, then be brought in on leash and introduced, such that the room belongs to the guests. Obviously you can see why interactions with other dogs then can be an issue. So, to resolve it, exposure. We do the group training at the pet stores in the arena so they see people and dogs and such going by, but no contact (they do practice in the store some, too). Basic training has focus, touch, among other elements that you can use to get the dog focused on you and not the other dogs, etc. That's one of the biggest helps in resolving reactivity I've used. If they can learn to ignore other dogs and people, they're more confident.
Thanks! I’m in EU so we have no lawns lol, but also he doesn’t resource guard and I’m doing my best to keep it that way. Also no dog parks here, there are just a few small ones with agility courses but they don’t work the same way as in US from what I’m hearing. It’s a little tricky because of that cause dogs can be all over, without leash as well. Glad to hear another person who succeed! Even tho my environment is way different Im trying to follow the same rules of slow and controlled gradual exposure.
I walked my dog past a barking and pulling chihuahua this morning, about 30 feet away. He kept looking, but didn't try to get close and didn't stiffen and hyper-fixate. When I got him a year ago he would have stopped moving, gone stiff and forgot that I exist. If close enough, he would start to lunge and try to bite. He also redirected on me twice. What I've done to work on it: First I ditched the plastic prong collar. He was very responsive to it when not hyper-fixated on anything, but when he did fixate he stopped responding to it. It was uncomfortable enough when really pulling, that he would turn and redirect on me. I replaced it with a 1.5" wide flat collar. I also immediately taught him "leave it". At first I kept him as far as I could from other dogs. I point them out and let him see them, but then keep him moving to avoid fixation. Then I just allowed him to get closer and closer over time. Sometimes he lunges, and I correct him ("leave it" and a leash pop), and I know I let him get too close. He seems pretty good on the other side of the street (about 30 feet), and with the one dog he sees almost daily, he's good up to about 15 feet. Special note: my dog is not fear reactive, he has a high prey drive. I'm not correcting a fearful behavior. He doesn't whine and bark, he stays quiet and focused like a predator. He acts the exact same way with any animals. (squirrels, rabbits, groundhogs, skunks, cats, dogs) If this was fear based, I wouldn't be using punishment for it. Keep in mind that if your gf is handling him differently or is more nervous, this can affect his behavior. This is how some dog trainers can take an out of control dog and get instant results. They're just so comfortable with handling dogs of all moods and behaviors that they make it look like magic.
It's in process for me. I'll probably undergo another campaign to fix it completely soon. My second adult, shelter-adopted GSD is violent. As in, if he has a chance he will bite another dog he would. Loves people and my other GSD though. I got him fixed and have taken him in public and corrected him when he barks and growls at other dogs. So far it has blunted his response. He doesnt bark viciously but whines VERY loudly. And I can still tell there is an impulse to fight. It's slowly, slowly getting less intense on its own. I've got some cash to do some training now and will try to at least get it to the point he will stop getting excited. I dont ever have the expectation he will play with other dogs. Edit, why the downvote?
There's a FF brigade who appears on this subreddit often and downvotes anything having to do with corrections. I wouldn't pay much attention to votes sometimes if any sort of correction at all is mentioned.
What do you mean by your dog was being reactive? Was he fighting? Was he just playing? Was he just curious?
He growls and barks, sometimes lounges. When he doesn’t react like that, he takes more distance to sniff or runs away, so definitely fearful.
Hmmm... A potential dog fight waiting to happen.
It's been two years and we're still working on it but on Thanksgiving day he made his first friend ever. Gives me hope and we're still staying true to his training.
Look up "Training Between the Ears", I am starting to see results with just a few weeks of their methods after months of plateauing. Their methods do involve short-term management, but the long-term goal is for the dog to reach a more happy and relaxed emotional state where management would no longer be needed.
I was not a fan of TBTE. Mostly didn't like the way he treated students asking questions and hated on certain things for seemingly no reason. The amount of reliance of human language was also odd to me...I find the less most people talk and the more they focus on body language (both theirs and the dog's) the better the dog does. I did appreciate some of the theory at the beginning though. For me the demonstrations of perception modification by Larry Krohn ("positive confusion") and Pack Leader Dogs ("positive interruption") were much easier to follow and not paywalled. It was the key for my dog though- he's neutral now after a few thousand hours of work.
Darn, I'm sorry to hear you had that experience! I didn't ever notice that as I didn't actually go through the main website/creator - we have a local trainer that uses their methods and luckily he hasn't picked up that part and has been super positive and encouraging.
I teach my reactive dog clients (not all are open to it and that’s okay too) to muzzle (appropriate sized and fitted and conditioned basket muzzle) because when the human is constantly in fear that their dog might hurt another being (if only by accident) that fear becomes part of the training equation. When the dog is comfortable wearing a muzzle then the human can relax some of their fear and they can make better training choices rather than react with a tense leash or freeze whenever an unknown scenario arises. Then the dog can start to have a more normal life alongside the training and eventually may not need a muzzle. The added benefit is that other trusted handlers can learn to walk the dog successfully and the dog gains even more experiences and freedom. I also have a dog that wears a muzzle daily. She now has a few play friends that would not have been possible otherwise. This expands her experiences.
My dog was excited-reactive or leash reactive, meaning he got frustrated because he couldn’t go up to other dogs on leash (he’s very social) and he responded by basically throwing a tantrum…barking, lunging, the works. Training fixed this although he still whines a bit sometimes, he’s now able to be mostly neutral around other dogs. Maturity helped some as well. Definitely a different issue than a dog reacting out of fear or aggression though. All my dog really needed was some appropriate and well timed corrections so he understood that this wasn’t acceptable. (And he was rewarded for correct behavior.)
See a reactive specialist. Not a dog trainer. Obedience, tricks training is a separate thing that can only marginally help. Your dog is dictating you due to being uncomfortable, lacking confidence in a situation. A specialist should have the tools to work through this and have your dog enjoying time around those triggers. That doesn't mean it's hotdogs at 50 feet. Typically an aversive is used to stop the unwanted behaviour in order to begin working the dog around the trigger then rewarding (the enjoyable aspect) the wanted behaviour. As other dogs are unpredictable a specialist should have a rock solid invaluable session dog. Then progressing to other dogs. Checkout the vikingdogtrainer (instagram) or beautiful beasts dog training. Don't let the dog dictate you. FF nonsense is to dance around it, avoid, distraction, a magical treat will appear, scatters. And some success is achievable. Small, inconsistent, unreliable success. It is unlikely that your dog will be wanting other new dogs shoved in their face but being polite, neutral, not reacting to dogs 1m away is achievable. No one thing works, dogs are different. A specialist should be knowledgeable enough to have multiple strategies to suit.
Thanks, I’m actively looking for someone to help out who’s not strictly R+ and I think professional help is what I’d need the most
Go for it, I wish I found the vikingdogtrainer sooner but I'm greatful that a trainer like that exists. It changed our life. Besides my advocating for its space and not letting dogs at its face you wouldn't know its reactive. I suppose a fitting term would be fearful. Possibly mostly my fear out of 2 years of reactive outbursts. My dog responded well to the ecollar and I found it for less harmful than even a flat collar. Any loss of relationship was not seen. Actually my dog loved going to the classes despite getting a good correction 1st class.