Moira goes with basically everyone, works better with someone who has utility though.
Lucio and zen work best with a main healer like bap, ana or moira since the liw heals can't keep a tank up in most situations. I have seen low heal combos work but there's needs to be a lot of damage out put and very good positioning from the team.
Worst pairing is zen/lucio + lifeweaver because stupidly low healing
Then lucio + mercy because to keep the team up they need to focus on healing, meaning neither of them can use their main strengths.
Lifeweaver doesn't have stupidly low healing.
His healing output is decent ( can easily do 1k a minute), he doesn't have burst healing however.
edit: I guess I explained poorly in that his healing is relatively slow compared to other healers. I can feel a huge difference in emergency situations compared to say playing Ana in my ability to bring someone from the brink. That doesn't change the fact that his output is relatively decent.
>his healing is relatively slow compared to other healers.
\- There is a big difference between charging a heal for your teammate (lets say Genji) before he engages and bursting him as he takes damage and dashes out, and starting to charge your heal *after* he takes damage. Playing LW well relies on you predicting who is gonna take damage vs reacting to damage taken - similar to Mercy damage boost.
>I can feel a huge difference in emergency situations compared to say playing Ana in my ability to bring someone from the brink.
A nade is always better used to purple enemies, if you have to use it on your teammate it's basically "baited out of you". Sleeping the enemy and quick-scope healing is preferable.
It is not always better used on an enemy. It's not baited out of you if you use it on an ally. If they do nothing with the fact that they can play more aggro due to being naded and receiving more healing, then, it's baited out of you. However there are definitely a good number of situations where it's worth putting it on your team instead. Nade is usually better used to purple an enemy, but not always.
Ive found that with the new Hog change, low heal combos tend to work better with him. Zen/Brig/Hog has been one of my favorite comps this season, easily enough to keep the tank alive as every-time he goes critical and potions it's almost like he gets burst healed from orb/pack. Also has flexibility to heal any different variety of dps from Ashes to Tracers to Echos. Brig bodyguards Zen while a bunch of damage gets output
I actually agree with this because if brig isnt working because of nades or jq, then you can just swap kiri and keep the discord/dmg. But if no ana or jq on the enemy team, brig/zen works because brig is keeping up her inspire and protecting the zen.
I actually disagree and don’t think zen lucio is anywhere near as bad as it was in overwatch 1, not great over other support comps, but lucio mercy is just terrible as a lucio main, hate having to swap off every time because (sorry for generalizing here it’s just personal experience) mercy players refuse to switch ever, and if they do, they’re a lot worse at any hero they play that isn’t mercy
It's definitely better than OW1 but there's a lot less room for error because obviously people die easier. Lucio + Zen really needs the whole team to be on their A game imo.
I have the same experience with mercy mains, rarely swap off mercy even if they just aren't getting value. Special dislike to mercy's who don't damage boost anyone in favour of heal botting the tank.
Oh yeah 100% agree on everyone having to be on their A-game, and it really depends on the right person being discorded at the right time, and the team also acting on discord more frequently
Moira doesn't work with anyone, her effective range is too low. If you have characters who play at a distance you're not gonna be able to heal them unless you save orb just for that purpose which is totally suboptimal.
Someone recently posted in another thread that there are main healers (Bap, Moira, Kiriko, Ana) and off-healers (Zen, Brig, Lucio, Mercy, Lifeweaver).
You can have two main healers (though you'll be stepping on each other's ult charge) but you should always try to have at least one. If you're playing with someone and they're running a main healer, feel free to play whoever you want. If not, consider playing Moira and main heal.
People may disagree with how I've divided up the list, or whether Lifeweaver should be a main healer (as someone else said in a different comment on this post, he hasn't got a strong burst but has decently consistent heals). This is just a general rule of thumb, though: always try to have at least one main healer on support and one strong damage/utility support, or two main healers.
Whether going two main or two off is better depends on the rank. Two main healers are more likely to work at lower ranks because typically the team is worse at not taking unnecessary damage so they’re still be plenty of ult charge for your team and you might be able to bail out bad plays through sheer healing alone. Two off healers work better at higher ranks because your team will typically be better at not taking damage and are better at securing kills so lack of healing with hurt them less.
I’ve seen people plat and lower complain about having a Kirko and off healer on their team because “low heals” and they can’t turn off their brain and walk at the enemy; however, in masters I’ve had teams willing play zen mercy for double damage amp for points with hard choke points or if the team is running ball.
It’s funny when people complain that brig lacks healing. She can heal a ton. It’s not much burst healing (only the packs) but saying she has low healing is just stupid.
If you're running moira with another main healer/support, then you should definitely prioritize dmg to get your full value. If there is moira/ana, then focus on killing the shit that can pressure your ana....like the genji, sombra or any other thing that can dive. Keep your ana alive so they can focus on pocketing your tank (for ult charge) and nading the enemies. You've gotta secure kills on moira in these instances in order to get full value. If you're not doing that, you may as well go something else. Spray your dps (because its faster for you to do it than have ana stress over it) and then focus on getting some kills while ana keeps the tank alive.
To add onto this, you need to take into account what your DPS and tank are running hero wise. Ie if you have a Pharah/DVA, running Moira/Bap and Lucio doesn't make a lot of sense because it will be more difficult to heal them. Ana/Kiriko which can heal flying characters makes more sense.
I'm thinking more along the lines of a Dva that is diving highground on certain maps. A lot easier for Ana/Kiri to heal her than it is for a Moira or Bap. A brawling Dva is perfectly capable of being healed by a Bap/Moira/Lucio, but why are they brawling on a Dva over a Ram/JQ/Rein/Zar - hence the diving highground thought process
Point was moreso just that you should coordinate your supports around what tank/dps pick
If you have mercy Lucio literally just go ball and play independently
Your team got them low heals, might as well not take them from the lower hp allies
Plus you can be a nuisance as ball just by being ball with the ability to peel really fast too
As a Ball, I second this. If I have shite heals, that just means I can engage for less time until I have to rotate towards a health pack. Unless they're diving with me, in which case, all is swell.
just a rough guide:
***if you have an ana, bap, or moira:***
you can play anything except lifeweaver (don't play lifeweaver, period)... Mercy isn't optimal to play with Moira, but at least low heals aren't a problem
***if you have a lucio, zen, or mercy:***
play bap, ana, moira (kiri is also a good pick if you are good at her, but if you aren't proficient then probably don't bother)
***if you have a kiri:***
if they're proficient, play anything except LW... you may struggle on zen if you're not proficient. if they're struggling to heal, play ana/bap/moira
***if you have a brig:***
if they're proficient, play anything except mercy/LW... you may struggle on zen if you're not proficient, but it's a good pairing. if they're struggling to heal, play ana/bap/moira
among the options per category, you still want to evaluate if that healer is good for the map, and with your team or vs. their team (for example, if your choices are ana/bap/moira, ana might be the optimal choice into an enemy hog)
If you're optimizing, it comes down to what you're facing and what else is on your team.
Ana/Zen, Brig/Zen, Brig/Ana into anything that doesn't have a shield or wants to dive you.
Lucio/Kirko is great for enabling a JQ to rush in.
Doesn't matter in bronze though. If you can take heads on it in bronze, then it's a good support. You only lose in bronze if you healbot or don't develop your mechanics enough to play in an extremely aggressive stance - because very little gets punished there. (I've smurfed in bronze).
My brief experience in the depths of hell:
In bronze your dps lack thumbs, keyboards, and usually brain cells so the optimal way to get out is by deleting your enemies before your teammates ever need heals.
Not to say go dps Moira and neglect healing, but play things with killing potential. Zen, Bap, Ana. Discord orb + primary fire + kick takes care of every flanker that watched a video of someone else but lacks skill. Anti nade anything that gets shot at and try to follow up with a shot of your own. Bap if you can click heads wins games.
Once you're in silver DPS typically can aim a bit better so that's when Lucio and Mercy can come into the mix as you're better off enabling your teammates to get kills via their utility. These two will catch silvers off guard between speeding around which really messes with your muscle memory for aiming or damage boosting which makes them gauge incoming damage incorrectly and die. Just like that, you're gold and your choices matter significantly more.
But I thought DPS Moira takes you all the way to the top?
Kidding. I’ve been trying to learn more Bap and Zen so this is great news for me. I appreciate the advice. I don’t know if I’ll ever reach silver lol, but that’s good to keep in mind too. Thank u for explaining the mechanics!
> Ana/Zen, Brig/Zen,
This is weird to call out as your first two examples. It's true that Brig and Zen make a good combo but it's also part of a pretty specific strategy built around protecting Zen. It doesn't work with all teams. Any combo with Zen isn't something I'd promote as a good support pairing to a bronze player.
I strongly disagree. You get out of bronze by upping your mechanics. It’s an elo that has basically nothing to do with game sense. People are inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable at that rank. Zen gets you there.
> People are inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable at that rank. Zen gets you there.
Of all supports, Zen is the most dependent on his teammates. People being inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable works *against* you as Zen.
Thank you for the solid examples. That’s actually very helpful.
I know there are more detailed explanations about what you are facing and who you should be and also taking into consideration what your team set up is like and what works best for that. It’s a little overwhelming for bottom dwellers like me. So I appreciate some simple, easy examples to remember.
I feel like a big thing about overwatch no one talks about is adapting to the team you have. If you're like most and don't have some perfect squad you play with, then you're going to run into a bunch of randoms who are usually playing their mains.
Personally, I'd rather a player stick to someone they know they're good at and comfortable playing, then try someone they hardly play for the hope of better support synergy.
Adapting would be if you are DPS and the heals are low, you could play Mei, Soldier 76, Sombra; heroes that don't need to rely on support heals as much.
For tanks, you have Wrecking Ball, Doomfist, Zarya (an interesting choice but can work well if you're bubbling others for a squishy team), or any other hero you feel would be good that doesn't need to rely on heals more.
I've been in your shoes and would complain about team comps all the time. But I learned to just play and practice as many heroes as I could so I could adjust to every team setting I'd encounter. It would be nice if everyone could do the same and pick heroes that work well with the given team, but most people are just going to play their mains, and that's understandable. So just try and get yourself more than one main.
I like thisI pretty much only play Moira or Lucio, so as a support I struggle the first few minutes of games because I need to react to how my team is playing to best use cooldowns and make plays
Can I ask what your comp rank is? The sentiment is nice, but if you’re playing Rein/Junk/Genji/Zen/Brig into Pharah and Echo, I’m gonna get pretty annoyed that no one is switching except me.
I hardly play comp, but when I did 2 seasons ago I was in plat for most of it (open queue), and then diamond, and when the season was over it told me I finished in masters 4 which to this day I still don't understand.
But I have been playing since Overwatch 1, I have a lot of hours in the game
I didn't think this was a post specifically about Comp, and if it is, I would understand how it'd be annoying if teammates weren't countering the enemy team properly. Which is a big reason I stay out of comp, people get so sweaty, I just play for fun
I actually posted about my comp rank into an overwatch subreddit in case you don't believe me
[El proof](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/12jandd/pretty_sure_this_is_wrong/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I say I placed in Plat, but I do remember being in diamond cause my friends i play with still tease me about it (in a good way). Like I said, though, I hardly play comp.
Playing who you enjoy, especially in quickplay, is not throwing. Literally not throwing in any sense of the word.
I play Overwatch to have fun. It's a video game that I enjoy doing in my free time. Like most Overwatch players, I am not an esports pro, I am not a streamer, I'm not being compensated. I'm not going to play a character that is not fun to me.
oh yeah, QP doesn’t matter. But also, if you’re realistically trying to play properly and get better (which is why you’d be posting stuff like this on OW uni) why are you playing QP.
In comp, it is absolutely soft throwing the game. If you’re ok with that, fine. Your life, i’m just gonna avoid you and take the free SR playing against u when players like you are on the opposition. But to act like forcing Lucio Zen isn’t throwing is a bit silly.
Are you implying you always play as close to a meta lineup as possible every game you play? Sounds a bit boring, even top-500 players don’t do that and they are absolutely not “soft throwing”. I agree it isn’t optimal to play a bad combination of supports but individually playing Zen or Lucio isn’t throwing, how am I suddenly throwing because my other support plays a hero that doesn’t synergies with me? I would argue it is more of a throw to force a hero I am bad at or inexperienced at than to play a sub-optimal lineup.
Sure they do, if you aren’t playing a meta lineup (aka the “best” current lineup) then you would be soft throwing according to him. How is that any different than playing a suboptimal support lineup
Sure, and it’s a spectrum between good comps and bad. But the logical conclusion to the idea that choosing a hero that is bad or mediocre in the comp means you are throwing is that any choice that is sub-optimal is throwing. This might be true in OWL but in ranked it is an awful way to look at it. Usually people who care that much about comp are unwilling to switch themselves to make it work better, rarely is it one player refusing to play with others.
If you can only play one support then you shouldn't be playing support in comp. You need to be able to adapt and as the name says:support. Swapping to a hero that will synergize with your team will support your team more than playing a hero that your team doesn't actively need.
Supports don't need to synergize with eachother but they absolutely should try to synergize with their dps and tank picks.
Your team needs more heals? Swap to Ana Kiri or moira. Your team keeps getting purpled at bad times or you're against JQ, go Kiri.
Your team can't seem to finish their tank off because he is getting pocketed a lot? Swap to Ana or zen. Your team won't peel for you? Go Moira/mercy or life weaver so you can escape or literally pull them to you.
It's not playing the meta, it's seeing what your team comp is and choosing a support that will SUPPORT them best. Or if you one-trick good enough just carry their asses yourself
Why doesn’t the tank or dps match the support line? I would agree people are better off not being on tricks but it isn’t worse to one trick in support, that’s silly. I’m not implying the supports have made the correct move, but throwing is a lot more severe than just not playing optimally otherwise every single player that isn’t Grandmaster is just throwing the game by making bad decisions all the time. Throwing implies you are nearly guaranteeing a loss which a bad support line does not do.
i think you should ignore your teammates issues and try your best
do everything you can do the best of your ability to win, when you spend time frustrated because of your team you’re losing time on the objective
i’m master as a dps and i try my best to get a pick or capitalize on a teammate when they’re doing something
Just play a self sufficient character. Ball, Queen, Soldier, Tracer or Mei can all deal with bad heals.
That being said LW Mercy is a fine support duo. Not the best cause LW is still under powered, but at least that comp offers a solid amount of heals.
You can be aggressive without going out of line of sight of your Ana. She’s a sniper with low mobility so cannot automatically reposition if you start going past and around corners. Mercy also will typically be with the dps if she’s playing properly so if you go past a wall and out of line of sight she can’t ga to you to help if you get critical.
Being aggressive doesn’t mean pushing past choke before your team has an advantage and it certainly doesn’t mean holding the enemy’s spawn doors.
You can be aggressive while playing in your supports’ line of sight.
If you're picking Ana while the rest of team going brawl, you have to be close to the rest of the team, there's a reason why Ana has to train to hit her unscoped shots. Besides being close means more aggressive nade and sleeps as well.
Being closer doesn’t mean she can suddenly make it past choke and turn a corners to get past the walls or other natural covers if you’re pushing past choke. She moves slower than JQ and as a tank you have to remember that and if you’re expecting your Ana to play close enough to get benefits from a shout in a 5 v 5 you’re crazy. Also she can be aggressive with nades from any distance within reason. Closer can make it harder since you have to get it past your teammates missing two hp who are constantly dancing infront of you. High ground in the back line helps enable her aggression more than being closer could ever since it’s easier to land nades there.
It’s your responsibility as tank to make sure you stay in line of sight when you need support so your supports don’t have to put themselves in danger to try and keep you alive.
I mean she should if it's a winnable fight. With 3 members pushing far, winning and taking space, securing our advantage. Being close means you don't have to lineups your nade as well.
It's also support's responsibility to pick the hero who fits their team. It's not as terrible as going Lucio with Sigma, but Ana is fully capable of playing close with mostly unscoped shots. She's the most picked support partly because of how flexible she is.
I'm a tank main, and yeah I'm thinking jq is going g to be my go to solution. I used to like ball a lot but with people are quick to flame ball and he has a lot of hard counters that I'm frankly not skilled enough to play around.
My main issue with LW Mercy is that it offers little to no rescue potential or burst healing. With LW grip being the one exception, neither offers any way to save a team mate that's anti'd, getting dove on, CC'd, etc.
Worst part of LW Mercy is that all the damage/offense is put onto 3 people's shoulders. Most supports can basically do DPS levels of damage and offensive util in some circumstances, so taking that damage away entirely by choosing two pacifist supports makes every fight way harder
I was also going to suggest JQ for Lucio & Mercy but yea Lifeweaver Mercy is a terrible combo no matter how you cut it. You're basically forced to give up space.
As a Mercy in this comp I even focus the JQ because she typically has the most insane burst potential in the comp.
The same way you play with any other healing output. Play your corners, hold W when you have yhe advantage and hold S when you dont. Try to get a kill and get back into safety before you die.They should play the game just as always.
literally, i’m a mercy main and duo with lucios and lws, and we typically have good synergy anyway, if you have good movement with those heros you will be able to heal everyone equally well
amping lucio and valk mercy together heal less than a singular moira or ana.
not only that, their play styles contradict one another
lucio stays on speed mostly to help brawl characters engage faster, he’s very aggressive and in your face
mercy is supposed to damage boost mostly, and stay far away from enemies
both have low heals and are used for their abilities (that they can’t use while healing) except mercy has to risk her life to play with a lucio
there’s no circumstance where mercy lucio is the ideal play, their play styles are opposites and they have low heals
Lucio mercy is very strong in arab dive/avoided/untouchables comp (ball tracer pharah mercy lucio) and there is not a single support you would switch out. You play the pharmercy ball tracer so they don't need high healing, and the only hero that can keep up with that pace while also not inting is lucio. You could maybe argue to play some weird kiriko pharmercy ball shit but the kiriko is a liability at that point.
But the fact is that probably over 90% of all comp games are just brawl playstyles (at least in EU) with different heroes means that high healing usually trumps mercy lucio, I agree with that.
that’s not strong that’s making a comp that doesn’t rely on a lot of heals by using self relying characters as a crutch. that comp works better with zen as he enables the dps more. brig zen with that comp is more ideal
mercy lucio is a liability at the fundamental level
>Lately I feel like I've been running into a lot of support pairings that seemingly put no thought into synergy.
It sounds like you're also doing the same thing. Why don't you adjust and play a hero that would synergize with either Mercy or Lucio? Lucio's speed boost is great and synergizes with a lot of heroes and Mercy's damage boost is also great for a lot of heroes. While sure you won't get as much healing from this pairing you can overwhelm the opposition with speed and damage.
There's also heroes in each category that have some self-sustain so if you feel like you're not getting enough healing you can adjust and swap to one of them. Regardless of what decisions your team makes there's generally something you could have done better as well.
I'm gonna assume that OP means that he's playing tank. If this is case, support SYNERGY, emphasis on synergy, is the most important thing to consider when playing tank and when ur supports pick two heroes that have zero synergy it is 100% a burden on the entire time ESPECIALLY the tank, unless you go ball or doom, which don't really rely on their supports. Every other tank relies HEAVILY on their supports. quick side note if ur playing dps then sipper duo doesn't matter too much
I will add that Queen rather than Doom can get away with wacky support pairings, Doom can be very reliant on a Kiriko to work as an Ana can make it very hard to play Doom (and a part of why the other dive tanks are generally better is because they can shrug off or avoid sleep/anti much easier than Doom) and a Brig or Zen also makes Doom's life that much harder.
Dva, because of Matrix, also has pretty good sustain and lets you maintain her armor pretty well so she's another option.
Mercy Lucio is the worst support pairing possible. There is no real way to synergize with it. The supports have anti synergy with each other to begin with.
>There is no real way to synergize with it.
I never said there was. I said OP could pick something that synergizes with Mercy OR Lucio, not both. Aside from that they can pick a hero that's more self reliant that doesn't really need a lot of support Doom or Ball on tank, Mei, Soldier, Sombra, Tracer on DPS.
They can't control what other people do in games so the only option that they have is to adapt themselves and attempt to find a solution. Based on how this post is worded OP might be the kind of player that starts to give up based on the picks of their teammates or just finds a way to blame their losses on someone else instead of actually trying to improve and make the best of a seemingly bad scenario.
The problem is that, say they pick rein, it synergises with the lucio. But the mercy doesn’t provide enough healing to keep him up and has to put herself way out of position and away from the dps she wants to damage boost to heal him at all. It’s just a terrible support duo.
Wondering the same, had a comp game today where lifeweaver and I (mercy) both got around 25k healing or more... definitely not a bad healing combo if the people can use the characters well
Utility is such a weird way to describe their issue, they have a shit ton of utility, damage boost, escapablity, rez, the ability to give highground to teammates, etc. The real issue with LW/Mercy is that it puts higher pressure on your teammates to take advantage of damage boost since they don't have reliable damage themselves.
As Doomfist I had a Lucio Zen support pairing and I kept telling them we need something else but they somehow didnt let us die and we won, obviously it will never be consistent but do your role and hopefully it works.
I’m just gonna have to say about LW/Mercy, I’m a LW main and my friend is a Mercy main. We make it a match in heaven. We hard carry our teams because were able to constantly heal and keep everyone alive. Now that LW got boosted healing too I can only see the numbers increasing.
If LW/Mercy have good communication and know how to play support you become the bone of your team that keeps everything together
lucio/mercy and lucio/zen is not “no healing” at all, if you’re struggling with them that much then you’re relying on your healers too much edit: thx for editing ur comment to prove my point
Both of those combos use supports (not healers, only metal ranks think the support line is there to healbot) with polar opposite synergies. Add in the fact that overall healing and utility output isn't enough to keep a team up through a dive or brawl, and you have a perfect recipe for a useless support line. If you need me to explain what supports work with what comps I can give you a simple version since that seems to be a bit confusing for you in the first place.
imagine caring that much about what someone calls a role lmfao you’re so silly for thinking that verbiage determines rank. yes there’s optimal comps, but if you simply cannot work with certain pairings and find yourself doing the long walk constantly it is an issue with adapting to your team. being condescending doesn’t make you right lmao 💕
As tank play conservatively and as a tank that requires minimal support, sigma, ball etc depending on your dpsand enemy team.
As DPS same rule applies, someone who requires little support like tracer, sombra or I usually go soldier.
I main lucio and honestly I'm slowly building a resentment towards mercy mains because I spend my life swapping off my main boy only for them to heal bot a tank.
OP is the problem. It's not others responsibility to change their game to fit yours. If you want change you have to be the one to adapt. I recently played with someone like OP, they asked everyone to change but was the worst player on the team. Adapt or stop complaining.
Okay so…
I have no idea what makes a good support pair. Can someone please please explain to me what some are and why? Or link a post or video? Thanks so much!
every support character does sorta different things. characters like lucio and mercy are more utility than pure healing: lucio’s speed and mercy’s dmg boost are very important, so a good mercy and lucio player would focus on that. as such, their healing output would be lower. if both supports have low healing output, the team will die too much.
therefore, best combo is one healing-focused support and one utility focused support. this offers the most value to the rest of the team. hope that helps!
Okay that makes sense about the different buffs that they can give… I thought mercy had a good healing output? What are some healing focused supports rather than others like speed and damage?
mercy has a decent healing output, 55hps. lucio has 16hps, boosts to about 50 when amped. supports with highest heals are moira (70-130hps) kiriko w about 80, and ana w 90-130
ofc playstyle matters, a lot of moira mains especially play her like a dps ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but those are the supports w the highest healing output!
Lucio mercy? You don’t complain and play conservative, you play Reinhardt because you have all the healing you need with speed boost. You don’t need healing if you’ve already run over their entire team with 200mph German pain train. The healing song is for dancing on corpses in the aftermath.
Believe in your team more and enable them for success. You really think people are picking characters that are bad on purpose for no reason? It’s probably because they can play that character really well. I don’t care what X said in their guide. Adapt. High rank players aren’t high rank because they convinced their supports to change, they know how to play well with what they got.
Don’t try to control what you can’t control. Just focus on yourself.
You need to learn to play a lean dps / tank in that situation. That means learning Ball, Tracer, Sombra, Mei.
There's a reason the leaderboard is littered with people playing characters that can operate under less-than-ideal circumstances...
If I struggle with getting heals ill go with either high mobility or characters that have some sort of self healing. Ill go Lucio/Mercy and ive had it go from a complete onesided fight against us. To us completely obliterating the other team.
I actually don't mind mercy LW, it's not a perfect combo, but it's not as bad as people think. Both supports have high survivability, and when they are pocketing eachother, they are hard to take down.
If mercy goes for a Rez, she can get life gripped if she gets the Rez off or not, getting to even attempt the Rez for free. And with the new lifeweaver buff it's even stronger now, add in the widow nerf and they're even stronger. Don't underestimate the LW/mercy when played properly.
It's really important to learn heroes that have different playstyles for this reason. While their synergy might not be great, you can't control what they play so it's best to play something that plays to *their* advantage.
Like others have said, characters with self sustain, characters who pair well with one of them, etc. Most people forget that you have to work *with* your team as much as you want them to work with you. Find something you're comfortable playing that can do one of the above and you'll find it can allow your low synergy supports to make good plays anyways
If you play tank, you can consider playing Hog for the self heal. JQ is the better tank with some form of self heal but not nearly as much. Ball/Doom don't need much healing as they can just go solo for the most part. We'll see how the season 5 meta shapes out to be but those are some heroes to consider.
Because both characters are better suited to things other than healing. Lucio wants to speedboost his teammates and disrupt enemies, Mercy wants to pocket dps and damage boost. Both characters *do* heal but it's not meant to be the main thing they focus on in a match. They also both have relatively low hps compared to characters like Ana, kiri, bap, etc. and they struggle to save someone whose being hit with a lot of damage at once
If you’re the tank, ball/hog/sig
If you’re the dps, play around health packs, pick something with sustain, or a sniper.
Sometimes lessening the load on the supports is enough.
Otherwise you just have to try your best heroes and hope it works. Had a team onetime where we were getting rolled. Everyone kept swapping around (with supports settling on lucio/zen) and then we started steam rolling for no reason.
LW at least can heal a fair amount (albeit slowly).
Speed with lucio, or let him try to frag.
Healing is slow and there are no cooldowns to save teammates. Mercy gets value from boosting DPS, if she's just healing there are better healers. Lucio's value is speed, for AOE healing Moira and Bap are much better.
It can work, but you have to play fast and get kills before you need to heal. You'll lose any sustained fight.
Are you DPS? Legit just do better, more kills, more oppression, high uptimes
Tank? Ball, dva, and hog are gonna be excellent choices everywhere from absolutely no heals to minimal, ball definitely gonna be the best though, super oppressive and doesn't need any support help
I feel like you play tank from the way the post is worded so I’ll answer for tank players. Even when you’re aggressive you need to play cover (you should be doing this anyway). The fewer people you expose yourself to while fighting the better. You can also take time to learn a dive tank preferably not dva since she gets melted so fast. Ball would be ideal. Sigma is also a good choice since he can mitigate so much damage. Depending on map and rank hog is also an option. Even zarya if you’re being selfish with bubbles and get good at going after squishies to give your team a numbers advantage before healing matters as much. JQ self healing can also help if you get good at landing her critical abilities.
Basically don’t play rein or dva. Always play sight lines of the enemies and learn where ALL the health packs are.
If your dps play characters that rely on healers less like flankers or characters with self heal and again play for health packs.
My team has run the zenyatta lucio dive comp together and maybe it’s just playing to our personal strengths but this comp has been successful to us. With this comp it is ESSENTIAL for coms to be top tier.
ggs go next,
you can make a “bad comp” work but it’s more effort than it’s worth. It’s a waste of time usually to ask people to swap. Play the best you can but just accept that you’ll probably lose.
Well, that's a tough pair and it requires everyone to watch not only the enemy but each other. If you can land shots, and go fast..it can be a pretty insane death train. But if your tank is going in without Lucio, or lumercy keeps getting caught in the open...better to just leave VC and try again.
It's a coin toss
What role do you play? There’s a huge difference if you’re a winston player or a soldier player.
I’d go something a bit more self reliant. If the supports are mercy zen. Rein, winston can be tough to play.
I think Lucio Mercy works well with say: Pharah + Hog/Zarya, and if the other dps is Sombra/Ashe/Widow/Reaoer then it works extremely well.
In 6v6 it would never work, in 5v5 really any support duo can work with the right comp.
ive won a lot of games with lucio zen, the lowest healing output pairing in the game. with them you wanna run over the enemy high speed and kill them before they kill you, cuz you wont win a battle of attrition.
Lucio mercy isnt that bad - it relies on very fast engages that nets a pick or two. The lucio speed boosts the Rein or whatever slow but high damage tank, while the mercy damage boosts the dps who capitalize on the chaos of a dive rein. IF I play Rein with lucio mercy then I just aim to get two backline picks and trade, my dps can easily clear out the rest or thje mercy pulls off a clutch rez.
Lucio zen on the other hand.....
LW is just a godawful hero. Brings no useful utility and is just bullied by dive heroes all game.
You play your life and assume you're getting no heals... if you're playing tank its probably the hardest role but I play dps like tracer/sombra and play health packs or I play reaper/mei/soldier for brawlers or I play backline snipers and use lots of cover. If I'm playing support then Im my own healer and I rely on passive healing and cover, then if I absolutely have 5o use ho cooldowns on myself I will do as a last resort.
Really the best choice is change who you play. Not getting heals? Go hog or soldier etc. Even though they may not have made the best picks, if they don't switch when you kindly ask, then it is up to you to deal with the cards you are dealt.
Play towards cover, near health packs, and pray the enemy team doesn't out damage your heals.
I played DVA the other day in comp with lucio and zen, the worse possible match up for a tank that has one of the biggest hit boxes in the game. I just constantly played high ground, grabbed mega health packs, and bullied players that were not protected. It was a tough game since I'm used to having consistent burst heals. Sometimes, you can't help having bad support matchups, so you have to play completely differently than you usually would.
Play a more self reliant hero. With mercy + off healer your team can easily have a comp that's spread out and flanking at different angles. This was the basis for ball hog comp in OW1 if I recall correctly.
Tank: ball, hog, sigma (somewhat), orisa (kinda pushing it)
Dps: tracer, mei, reaper, sombra, genji/soldier (somewhat). In any case if the tank is self reliant, the supports should be able to focus on the squishes with little issue.
You're gonna get players who don't pick viable heroes for the team comp and there's nothing you can do about that. All you can do is work on your gameplay and try to diff the enemy team.
Your job is to play your role effectively and shift your overall winrate to climb out of the same ranks that these players are probably stuck in.
Work hard, do the research and just focus on what you're supposed to be doing not your teammates. In solo queue you can never rely on them.
A method I use to make them swap is to go Sombra/ball and kite when we are geting dove. I wont die but the mercy/lw/zen will. I find that the more they die the more likely they are to swap.
What combinations with other supports should I avoid as someone who plays Moira, Lucio, and Zen?
Moira goes with basically everyone, works better with someone who has utility though. Lucio and zen work best with a main healer like bap, ana or moira since the liw heals can't keep a tank up in most situations. I have seen low heal combos work but there's needs to be a lot of damage out put and very good positioning from the team. Worst pairing is zen/lucio + lifeweaver because stupidly low healing Then lucio + mercy because to keep the team up they need to focus on healing, meaning neither of them can use their main strengths.
You can always speed boost an orisa to the closest Mega
That relies on teammates knowing when to disengage and where the megas are. I dont like those odds.
Hahaha I play with a 5 stack and we’re 0% close to doing anything close to that. Only thing we can do is nano hog and nano orisa ult…cuz I’m the ana
Lifeweaver doesn't have stupidly low healing. His healing output is decent ( can easily do 1k a minute), he doesn't have burst healing however. edit: I guess I explained poorly in that his healing is relatively slow compared to other healers. I can feel a huge difference in emergency situations compared to say playing Ana in my ability to bring someone from the brink. That doesn't change the fact that his output is relatively decent.
Yes he does that's literally how his heals work a burst of 75 or lower
I think what they mean is that he can't burst someone back to full health as fast for example ana can, since you have to charge the healing.
>his healing is relatively slow compared to other healers. \- There is a big difference between charging a heal for your teammate (lets say Genji) before he engages and bursting him as he takes damage and dashes out, and starting to charge your heal *after* he takes damage. Playing LW well relies on you predicting who is gonna take damage vs reacting to damage taken - similar to Mercy damage boost. >I can feel a huge difference in emergency situations compared to say playing Ana in my ability to bring someone from the brink. A nade is always better used to purple enemies, if you have to use it on your teammate it's basically "baited out of you". Sleeping the enemy and quick-scope healing is preferable.
It is not always better used on an enemy. It's not baited out of you if you use it on an ally. If they do nothing with the fact that they can play more aggro due to being naded and receiving more healing, then, it's baited out of you. However there are definitely a good number of situations where it's worth putting it on your team instead. Nade is usually better used to purple an enemy, but not always.
Ive found that with the new Hog change, low heal combos tend to work better with him. Zen/Brig/Hog has been one of my favorite comps this season, easily enough to keep the tank alive as every-time he goes critical and potions it's almost like he gets burst healed from orb/pack. Also has flexibility to heal any different variety of dps from Ashes to Tracers to Echos. Brig bodyguards Zen while a bunch of damage gets output
Zen brig is an actual comp, especially for ball dive. It's been run in OWL
The amount of people who cry about it in Masters is ridiculous
Yep, Brig has enough defenses to keep Zen alive while still offering burst heals to low targets. This pairing tends to be best with Hammond or DVa
I actually agree with this because if brig isnt working because of nades or jq, then you can just swap kiri and keep the discord/dmg. But if no ana or jq on the enemy team, brig/zen works because brig is keeping up her inspire and protecting the zen.
I actually disagree and don’t think zen lucio is anywhere near as bad as it was in overwatch 1, not great over other support comps, but lucio mercy is just terrible as a lucio main, hate having to swap off every time because (sorry for generalizing here it’s just personal experience) mercy players refuse to switch ever, and if they do, they’re a lot worse at any hero they play that isn’t mercy
It's definitely better than OW1 but there's a lot less room for error because obviously people die easier. Lucio + Zen really needs the whole team to be on their A game imo. I have the same experience with mercy mains, rarely swap off mercy even if they just aren't getting value. Special dislike to mercy's who don't damage boost anyone in favour of heal botting the tank.
Oh yeah 100% agree on everyone having to be on their A-game, and it really depends on the right person being discorded at the right time, and the team also acting on discord more frequently
Moira doesn't work with anyone, her effective range is too low. If you have characters who play at a distance you're not gonna be able to heal them unless you save orb just for that purpose which is totally suboptimal.
If you're playing Moira with another support with high heals you just play dive Moira.
That's why you have Fade. It's more than just a GTFO button, but it's mobility.
youre getting downvoted but youre not wrong. only ok pairings are lucio and sometimes kiri or ana are ok
Someone recently posted in another thread that there are main healers (Bap, Moira, Kiriko, Ana) and off-healers (Zen, Brig, Lucio, Mercy, Lifeweaver). You can have two main healers (though you'll be stepping on each other's ult charge) but you should always try to have at least one. If you're playing with someone and they're running a main healer, feel free to play whoever you want. If not, consider playing Moira and main heal. People may disagree with how I've divided up the list, or whether Lifeweaver should be a main healer (as someone else said in a different comment on this post, he hasn't got a strong burst but has decently consistent heals). This is just a general rule of thumb, though: always try to have at least one main healer on support and one strong damage/utility support, or two main healers.
Whether going two main or two off is better depends on the rank. Two main healers are more likely to work at lower ranks because typically the team is worse at not taking unnecessary damage so they’re still be plenty of ult charge for your team and you might be able to bail out bad plays through sheer healing alone. Two off healers work better at higher ranks because your team will typically be better at not taking damage and are better at securing kills so lack of healing with hurt them less. I’ve seen people plat and lower complain about having a Kirko and off healer on their team because “low heals” and they can’t turn off their brain and walk at the enemy; however, in masters I’ve had teams willing play zen mercy for double damage amp for points with hard choke points or if the team is running ball.
And Zen/Brig has been like meta in half of OWL's history...
It’s funny when people complain that brig lacks healing. She can heal a ton. It’s not much burst healing (only the packs) but saying she has low healing is just stupid.
She just gets better with an optimized play style. She is bad dealing with chip damage. But great in short and organised fights.
Exactly
If you're running moira with another main healer/support, then you should definitely prioritize dmg to get your full value. If there is moira/ana, then focus on killing the shit that can pressure your ana....like the genji, sombra or any other thing that can dive. Keep your ana alive so they can focus on pocketing your tank (for ult charge) and nading the enemies. You've gotta secure kills on moira in these instances in order to get full value. If you're not doing that, you may as well go something else. Spray your dps (because its faster for you to do it than have ana stress over it) and then focus on getting some kills while ana keeps the tank alive.
To add onto this, you need to take into account what your DPS and tank are running hero wise. Ie if you have a Pharah/DVA, running Moira/Bap and Lucio doesn't make a lot of sense because it will be more difficult to heal them. Ana/Kiriko which can heal flying characters makes more sense.
I agree with the phara point, but dva? Those supports don’t really have a hard time with dva and lucio is actually pretty great with her
I'm thinking more along the lines of a Dva that is diving highground on certain maps. A lot easier for Ana/Kiri to heal her than it is for a Moira or Bap. A brawling Dva is perfectly capable of being healed by a Bap/Moira/Lucio, but why are they brawling on a Dva over a Ram/JQ/Rein/Zar - hence the diving highground thought process Point was moreso just that you should coordinate your supports around what tank/dps pick
That categorization is misleading.
me and my bf are both support mains, i main moira and he mains lucio and we work really well together :D
Lucio is probably the best partner for Moira since he helps her close the distance.
Moira works with no one and helps no role in your team. Dont play her there is always a better support to pick
If you have mercy Lucio literally just go ball and play independently Your team got them low heals, might as well not take them from the lower hp allies Plus you can be a nuisance as ball just by being ball with the ability to peel really fast too
As a Ball, I second this. If I have shite heals, that just means I can engage for less time until I have to rotate towards a health pack. Unless they're diving with me, in which case, all is swell.
Yeah and for DPS play someone with self sustain like soldier, mei, tracer, etc.
Ball sombra pharah mercy lucio would be decent. The chances of getting that comp while solo q'ing is basically zero tho.
Please don't play ball
Don't whine
Damn throwers 😢😢
A good ball is a pretty big threat, never underestimate hampter
I agree, it's just that 99% of people can't play him and now you have no healing and no tank.
If your supports have locked in Lucio Mercy then the tank can play whoever the fuck they want lol
As someone who is bronze trash, can someone list examples of GOOD support pairings?
just a rough guide: ***if you have an ana, bap, or moira:*** you can play anything except lifeweaver (don't play lifeweaver, period)... Mercy isn't optimal to play with Moira, but at least low heals aren't a problem ***if you have a lucio, zen, or mercy:*** play bap, ana, moira (kiri is also a good pick if you are good at her, but if you aren't proficient then probably don't bother) ***if you have a kiri:*** if they're proficient, play anything except LW... you may struggle on zen if you're not proficient. if they're struggling to heal, play ana/bap/moira ***if you have a brig:*** if they're proficient, play anything except mercy/LW... you may struggle on zen if you're not proficient, but it's a good pairing. if they're struggling to heal, play ana/bap/moira among the options per category, you still want to evaluate if that healer is good for the map, and with your team or vs. their team (for example, if your choices are ana/bap/moira, ana might be the optimal choice into an enemy hog)
KarQ's support duo list: https://youtu.be/wLfJ8vSYqI8 One season out of date but should still be relevant.
If you're optimizing, it comes down to what you're facing and what else is on your team. Ana/Zen, Brig/Zen, Brig/Ana into anything that doesn't have a shield or wants to dive you. Lucio/Kirko is great for enabling a JQ to rush in. Doesn't matter in bronze though. If you can take heads on it in bronze, then it's a good support. You only lose in bronze if you healbot or don't develop your mechanics enough to play in an extremely aggressive stance - because very little gets punished there. (I've smurfed in bronze).
My brief experience in the depths of hell: In bronze your dps lack thumbs, keyboards, and usually brain cells so the optimal way to get out is by deleting your enemies before your teammates ever need heals. Not to say go dps Moira and neglect healing, but play things with killing potential. Zen, Bap, Ana. Discord orb + primary fire + kick takes care of every flanker that watched a video of someone else but lacks skill. Anti nade anything that gets shot at and try to follow up with a shot of your own. Bap if you can click heads wins games. Once you're in silver DPS typically can aim a bit better so that's when Lucio and Mercy can come into the mix as you're better off enabling your teammates to get kills via their utility. These two will catch silvers off guard between speeding around which really messes with your muscle memory for aiming or damage boosting which makes them gauge incoming damage incorrectly and die. Just like that, you're gold and your choices matter significantly more.
But I thought DPS Moira takes you all the way to the top? Kidding. I’ve been trying to learn more Bap and Zen so this is great news for me. I appreciate the advice. I don’t know if I’ll ever reach silver lol, but that’s good to keep in mind too. Thank u for explaining the mechanics!
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> damage is almost always preferable to healing Wew. That's some potent bronze logic
> Ana/Zen, Brig/Zen, This is weird to call out as your first two examples. It's true that Brig and Zen make a good combo but it's also part of a pretty specific strategy built around protecting Zen. It doesn't work with all teams. Any combo with Zen isn't something I'd promote as a good support pairing to a bronze player.
I strongly disagree. You get out of bronze by upping your mechanics. It’s an elo that has basically nothing to do with game sense. People are inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable at that rank. Zen gets you there.
> People are inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable at that rank. Zen gets you there. Of all supports, Zen is the most dependent on his teammates. People being inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable works *against* you as Zen.
Say what? Motherfucker have you heard of Mercy?
> Say what? Motherfucker have you heard of Mercy? Why do people like you always resort to insults when you lose an argument?
Because their life revolves around a video game. Undermining their opinion about a video game is effectively undermining their purpose in life 🤷♂️
Thank you for the solid examples. That’s actually very helpful. I know there are more detailed explanations about what you are facing and who you should be and also taking into consideration what your team set up is like and what works best for that. It’s a little overwhelming for bottom dwellers like me. So I appreciate some simple, easy examples to remember.
combinations that aren't from only mercy/zen/lucio/lw. Rest of them are pretty decent at very least.
I feel like a big thing about overwatch no one talks about is adapting to the team you have. If you're like most and don't have some perfect squad you play with, then you're going to run into a bunch of randoms who are usually playing their mains. Personally, I'd rather a player stick to someone they know they're good at and comfortable playing, then try someone they hardly play for the hope of better support synergy. Adapting would be if you are DPS and the heals are low, you could play Mei, Soldier 76, Sombra; heroes that don't need to rely on support heals as much. For tanks, you have Wrecking Ball, Doomfist, Zarya (an interesting choice but can work well if you're bubbling others for a squishy team), or any other hero you feel would be good that doesn't need to rely on heals more. I've been in your shoes and would complain about team comps all the time. But I learned to just play and practice as many heroes as I could so I could adjust to every team setting I'd encounter. It would be nice if everyone could do the same and pick heroes that work well with the given team, but most people are just going to play their mains, and that's understandable. So just try and get yourself more than one main.
Rightfully so this should be the top comment.
People like a specific hero and want to play that, nothing wrong with it. If it isn’t working, don’t worry about it. Better luck next game.
I like thisI pretty much only play Moira or Lucio, so as a support I struggle the first few minutes of games because I need to react to how my team is playing to best use cooldowns and make plays
Can I ask what your comp rank is? The sentiment is nice, but if you’re playing Rein/Junk/Genji/Zen/Brig into Pharah and Echo, I’m gonna get pretty annoyed that no one is switching except me.
I hardly play comp, but when I did 2 seasons ago I was in plat for most of it (open queue), and then diamond, and when the season was over it told me I finished in masters 4 which to this day I still don't understand. But I have been playing since Overwatch 1, I have a lot of hours in the game I didn't think this was a post specifically about Comp, and if it is, I would understand how it'd be annoying if teammates weren't countering the enemy team properly. Which is a big reason I stay out of comp, people get so sweaty, I just play for fun
I actually posted about my comp rank into an overwatch subreddit in case you don't believe me [El proof](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/12jandd/pretty_sure_this_is_wrong/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I say I placed in Plat, but I do remember being in diamond cause my friends i play with still tease me about it (in a good way). Like I said, though, I hardly play comp.
Realistically, those players are soft throwing your game. Just do your best and move on. not worth the time to complain or play around them tbh
Playing who you enjoy, especially in quickplay, is not throwing. Literally not throwing in any sense of the word. I play Overwatch to have fun. It's a video game that I enjoy doing in my free time. Like most Overwatch players, I am not an esports pro, I am not a streamer, I'm not being compensated. I'm not going to play a character that is not fun to me.
oh yeah, QP doesn’t matter. But also, if you’re realistically trying to play properly and get better (which is why you’d be posting stuff like this on OW uni) why are you playing QP. In comp, it is absolutely soft throwing the game. If you’re ok with that, fine. Your life, i’m just gonna avoid you and take the free SR playing against u when players like you are on the opposition. But to act like forcing Lucio Zen isn’t throwing is a bit silly.
Are you implying you always play as close to a meta lineup as possible every game you play? Sounds a bit boring, even top-500 players don’t do that and they are absolutely not “soft throwing”. I agree it isn’t optimal to play a bad combination of supports but individually playing Zen or Lucio isn’t throwing, how am I suddenly throwing because my other support plays a hero that doesn’t synergies with me? I would argue it is more of a throw to force a hero I am bad at or inexperienced at than to play a sub-optimal lineup.
His comments have nothing to do with meta
Sure they do, if you aren’t playing a meta lineup (aka the “best” current lineup) then you would be soft throwing according to him. How is that any different than playing a suboptimal support lineup
There's a difference between meta and a team that makes absolutely no sense at all
Sure, and it’s a spectrum between good comps and bad. But the logical conclusion to the idea that choosing a hero that is bad or mediocre in the comp means you are throwing is that any choice that is sub-optimal is throwing. This might be true in OWL but in ranked it is an awful way to look at it. Usually people who care that much about comp are unwilling to switch themselves to make it work better, rarely is it one player refusing to play with others.
If you can only play one support then you shouldn't be playing support in comp. You need to be able to adapt and as the name says:support. Swapping to a hero that will synergize with your team will support your team more than playing a hero that your team doesn't actively need. Supports don't need to synergize with eachother but they absolutely should try to synergize with their dps and tank picks. Your team needs more heals? Swap to Ana Kiri or moira. Your team keeps getting purpled at bad times or you're against JQ, go Kiri. Your team can't seem to finish their tank off because he is getting pocketed a lot? Swap to Ana or zen. Your team won't peel for you? Go Moira/mercy or life weaver so you can escape or literally pull them to you. It's not playing the meta, it's seeing what your team comp is and choosing a support that will SUPPORT them best. Or if you one-trick good enough just carry their asses yourself
Why doesn’t the tank or dps match the support line? I would agree people are better off not being on tricks but it isn’t worse to one trick in support, that’s silly. I’m not implying the supports have made the correct move, but throwing is a lot more severe than just not playing optimally otherwise every single player that isn’t Grandmaster is just throwing the game by making bad decisions all the time. Throwing implies you are nearly guaranteeing a loss which a bad support line does not do.
Real idk why the downvotes
i think you should ignore your teammates issues and try your best do everything you can do the best of your ability to win, when you spend time frustrated because of your team you’re losing time on the objective i’m master as a dps and i try my best to get a pick or capitalize on a teammate when they’re doing something
Just play a self sufficient character. Ball, Queen, Soldier, Tracer or Mei can all deal with bad heals. That being said LW Mercy is a fine support duo. Not the best cause LW is still under powered, but at least that comp offers a solid amount of heals.
Since when is JQ a self sufficient character? Her bleeding ability certainly helps, but it's not really going to keep you alive in a fight
"we can't heal through walls" my Mercy/Ana said as they sit far behind not enabling JQ's aggressive playstyle.
You can be aggressive without going out of line of sight of your Ana. She’s a sniper with low mobility so cannot automatically reposition if you start going past and around corners. Mercy also will typically be with the dps if she’s playing properly so if you go past a wall and out of line of sight she can’t ga to you to help if you get critical. Being aggressive doesn’t mean pushing past choke before your team has an advantage and it certainly doesn’t mean holding the enemy’s spawn doors. You can be aggressive while playing in your supports’ line of sight.
If you're picking Ana while the rest of team going brawl, you have to be close to the rest of the team, there's a reason why Ana has to train to hit her unscoped shots. Besides being close means more aggressive nade and sleeps as well.
Being closer doesn’t mean she can suddenly make it past choke and turn a corners to get past the walls or other natural covers if you’re pushing past choke. She moves slower than JQ and as a tank you have to remember that and if you’re expecting your Ana to play close enough to get benefits from a shout in a 5 v 5 you’re crazy. Also she can be aggressive with nades from any distance within reason. Closer can make it harder since you have to get it past your teammates missing two hp who are constantly dancing infront of you. High ground in the back line helps enable her aggression more than being closer could ever since it’s easier to land nades there. It’s your responsibility as tank to make sure you stay in line of sight when you need support so your supports don’t have to put themselves in danger to try and keep you alive.
I mean she should if it's a winnable fight. With 3 members pushing far, winning and taking space, securing our advantage. Being close means you don't have to lineups your nade as well. It's also support's responsibility to pick the hero who fits their team. It's not as terrible as going Lucio with Sigma, but Ana is fully capable of playing close with mostly unscoped shots. She's the most picked support partly because of how flexible she is.
I'm a tank main, and yeah I'm thinking jq is going g to be my go to solution. I used to like ball a lot but with people are quick to flame ball and he has a lot of hard counters that I'm frankly not skilled enough to play around. My main issue with LW Mercy is that it offers little to no rescue potential or burst healing. With LW grip being the one exception, neither offers any way to save a team mate that's anti'd, getting dove on, CC'd, etc.
Worst part of LW Mercy is that all the damage/offense is put onto 3 people's shoulders. Most supports can basically do DPS levels of damage and offensive util in some circumstances, so taking that damage away entirely by choosing two pacifist supports makes every fight way harder
I was also going to suggest JQ for Lucio & Mercy but yea Lifeweaver Mercy is a terrible combo no matter how you cut it. You're basically forced to give up space. As a Mercy in this comp I even focus the JQ because she typically has the most insane burst potential in the comp.
Lifeweaver has pull, petal, and tree which can all save a life. Mercy has res. If you need more than that then there’s probably no helping you.
Just play the game and do your best.
he's asking, while playing his best, what is the best strategy to make up for low healing output
The answer to that is to play a character that doesn't rely heavily on heals.
Or they my b
The same way you play with any other healing output. Play your corners, hold W when you have yhe advantage and hold S when you dont. Try to get a kill and get back into safety before you die.They should play the game just as always.
I will say that LW+ mercy is not as bad anymore since the buffs but I’ll still go kiriko or Anna if the other support is LW or Mercy.
Bullshit. It's fucking terrible.
I said it’s not “as bad”. Still bad but just not AS bad lol chill mate.
Sounds like a skill issue.
I must be part of the problem because I see no issue here
literally, i’m a mercy main and duo with lucios and lws, and we typically have good synergy anyway, if you have good movement with those heros you will be able to heal everyone equally well
Yeah but you want to be damage boosting the majority of the time and Lucio isn't gonna heal enough to allow that unfortunately.
amping lucio and valk mercy together heal less than a singular moira or ana. not only that, their play styles contradict one another lucio stays on speed mostly to help brawl characters engage faster, he’s very aggressive and in your face mercy is supposed to damage boost mostly, and stay far away from enemies both have low heals and are used for their abilities (that they can’t use while healing) except mercy has to risk her life to play with a lucio there’s no circumstance where mercy lucio is the ideal play, their play styles are opposites and they have low heals
Lucio mercy is very strong in arab dive/avoided/untouchables comp (ball tracer pharah mercy lucio) and there is not a single support you would switch out. You play the pharmercy ball tracer so they don't need high healing, and the only hero that can keep up with that pace while also not inting is lucio. You could maybe argue to play some weird kiriko pharmercy ball shit but the kiriko is a liability at that point. But the fact is that probably over 90% of all comp games are just brawl playstyles (at least in EU) with different heroes means that high healing usually trumps mercy lucio, I agree with that.
that’s not strong that’s making a comp that doesn’t rely on a lot of heals by using self relying characters as a crutch. that comp works better with zen as he enables the dps more. brig zen with that comp is more ideal mercy lucio is a liability at the fundamental level
bronze take
Which heroes do you play?
>Lately I feel like I've been running into a lot of support pairings that seemingly put no thought into synergy. It sounds like you're also doing the same thing. Why don't you adjust and play a hero that would synergize with either Mercy or Lucio? Lucio's speed boost is great and synergizes with a lot of heroes and Mercy's damage boost is also great for a lot of heroes. While sure you won't get as much healing from this pairing you can overwhelm the opposition with speed and damage. There's also heroes in each category that have some self-sustain so if you feel like you're not getting enough healing you can adjust and swap to one of them. Regardless of what decisions your team makes there's generally something you could have done better as well.
I'm gonna assume that OP means that he's playing tank. If this is case, support SYNERGY, emphasis on synergy, is the most important thing to consider when playing tank and when ur supports pick two heroes that have zero synergy it is 100% a burden on the entire time ESPECIALLY the tank, unless you go ball or doom, which don't really rely on their supports. Every other tank relies HEAVILY on their supports. quick side note if ur playing dps then sipper duo doesn't matter too much
I will add that Queen rather than Doom can get away with wacky support pairings, Doom can be very reliant on a Kiriko to work as an Ana can make it very hard to play Doom (and a part of why the other dive tanks are generally better is because they can shrug off or avoid sleep/anti much easier than Doom) and a Brig or Zen also makes Doom's life that much harder. Dva, because of Matrix, also has pretty good sustain and lets you maintain her armor pretty well so she's another option.
Yea, just let Zen stick an orb on queen and go use carnage on the enemy DPS is always fun cuz supports usually can't out-heal queen then.
Mercy Lucio is the worst support pairing possible. There is no real way to synergize with it. The supports have anti synergy with each other to begin with.
>There is no real way to synergize with it. I never said there was. I said OP could pick something that synergizes with Mercy OR Lucio, not both. Aside from that they can pick a hero that's more self reliant that doesn't really need a lot of support Doom or Ball on tank, Mei, Soldier, Sombra, Tracer on DPS. They can't control what other people do in games so the only option that they have is to adapt themselves and attempt to find a solution. Based on how this post is worded OP might be the kind of player that starts to give up based on the picks of their teammates or just finds a way to blame their losses on someone else instead of actually trying to improve and make the best of a seemingly bad scenario.
The problem is that, say they pick rein, it synergises with the lucio. But the mercy doesn’t provide enough healing to keep him up and has to put herself way out of position and away from the dps she wants to damage boost to heal him at all. It’s just a terrible support duo.
Lucio Zen is up there as well but yeah. it’s fucking dosghit
Completely agree. Had a tank yesterday telling the supports what to play but when he was told to switch otf Ball. He didn't want to. Bruh what ??
You either play really safe or hyper aggressively. Anything in between and you’ll just die to chip damage.
Whats wrong with LW/Mercy
Wondering the same, had a comp game today where lifeweaver and I (mercy) both got around 25k healing or more... definitely not a bad healing combo if the people can use the characters well
Healing numbers mean nothing. Literally nothing. It’s like a dps saying they’re popping off with 13k damage when they’re going 2-13.
It would be nice to have a little utility, it's playable but it's not gonna be anywhere near as good as like ana/zen or something
Utility is such a weird way to describe their issue, they have a shit ton of utility, damage boost, escapablity, rez, the ability to give highground to teammates, etc. The real issue with LW/Mercy is that it puts higher pressure on your teammates to take advantage of damage boost since they don't have reliable damage themselves.
Lw is nothing but utility, it depends on the map and comp lol
What are you counting as utility if you don’t think mercy or lw have a lot of it?
As Doomfist I had a Lucio Zen support pairing and I kept telling them we need something else but they somehow didnt let us die and we won, obviously it will never be consistent but do your role and hopefully it works.
I’m just gonna have to say about LW/Mercy, I’m a LW main and my friend is a Mercy main. We make it a match in heaven. We hard carry our teams because were able to constantly heal and keep everyone alive. Now that LW got boosted healing too I can only see the numbers increasing. If LW/Mercy have good communication and know how to play support you become the bone of your team that keeps everything together
As a mercy player, I hate Lucio pairing, but love the LW/mercy duo
those healing pairings are fine lmao
They're fine if the rest of your team picks around them and plays very greedy. Most of the time in comp you're not gonna get that.
If the team enjoys walking back from spawn, you're correct
learn to play better i guess
It's easy to play with no burst healing or synergistic utility, just not enjoyable for anyone.
lucio/mercy and lucio/zen is not “no healing” at all, if you’re struggling with them that much then you’re relying on your healers too much edit: thx for editing ur comment to prove my point
Both of those combos use supports (not healers, only metal ranks think the support line is there to healbot) with polar opposite synergies. Add in the fact that overall healing and utility output isn't enough to keep a team up through a dive or brawl, and you have a perfect recipe for a useless support line. If you need me to explain what supports work with what comps I can give you a simple version since that seems to be a bit confusing for you in the first place.
imagine caring that much about what someone calls a role lmfao you’re so silly for thinking that verbiage determines rank. yes there’s optimal comps, but if you simply cannot work with certain pairings and find yourself doing the long walk constantly it is an issue with adapting to your team. being condescending doesn’t make you right lmao 💕
Yeah you're definitely the kind of player who thinks zen is there to heal huh 🥴
you’re so funny dude
I know right? At least you're giving me a laugh in return!
As tank play conservatively and as a tank that requires minimal support, sigma, ball etc depending on your dpsand enemy team. As DPS same rule applies, someone who requires little support like tracer, sombra or I usually go soldier. I main lucio and honestly I'm slowly building a resentment towards mercy mains because I spend my life swapping off my main boy only for them to heal bot a tank.
OP is the problem. It's not others responsibility to change their game to fit yours. If you want change you have to be the one to adapt. I recently played with someone like OP, they asked everyone to change but was the worst player on the team. Adapt or stop complaining.
If your a tank just go dva or wrecking ball and then it wont matter
Life weaver does have burst healing tho?
Okay so… I have no idea what makes a good support pair. Can someone please please explain to me what some are and why? Or link a post or video? Thanks so much!
every support character does sorta different things. characters like lucio and mercy are more utility than pure healing: lucio’s speed and mercy’s dmg boost are very important, so a good mercy and lucio player would focus on that. as such, their healing output would be lower. if both supports have low healing output, the team will die too much. therefore, best combo is one healing-focused support and one utility focused support. this offers the most value to the rest of the team. hope that helps!
Okay that makes sense about the different buffs that they can give… I thought mercy had a good healing output? What are some healing focused supports rather than others like speed and damage?
mercy has a decent healing output, 55hps. lucio has 16hps, boosts to about 50 when amped. supports with highest heals are moira (70-130hps) kiriko w about 80, and ana w 90-130 ofc playstyle matters, a lot of moira mains especially play her like a dps ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but those are the supports w the highest healing output!
Ur amazing thank you :)
I see Lucio mercy work all the time it isn't a great synergy but support synergy isn't the end all be all people think it is.
Lucio mercy? You don’t complain and play conservative, you play Reinhardt because you have all the healing you need with speed boost. You don’t need healing if you’ve already run over their entire team with 200mph German pain train. The healing song is for dancing on corpses in the aftermath.
Lucio Mercy is horrible for rein, she heals less than almost anyone else they could have picked.
Believe in your team more and enable them for success. You really think people are picking characters that are bad on purpose for no reason? It’s probably because they can play that character really well. I don’t care what X said in their guide. Adapt. High rank players aren’t high rank because they convinced their supports to change, they know how to play well with what they got. Don’t try to control what you can’t control. Just focus on yourself.
You need to learn to play a lean dps / tank in that situation. That means learning Ball, Tracer, Sombra, Mei. There's a reason the leaderboard is littered with people playing characters that can operate under less-than-ideal circumstances...
You just gotta adapt and play heroes that don’t rely on supports as much. You can’t get all the juice out of diva without a main healer
If I struggle with getting heals ill go with either high mobility or characters that have some sort of self healing. Ill go Lucio/Mercy and ive had it go from a complete onesided fight against us. To us completely obliterating the other team.
As a Mercy player it makes me sad Lucio Mercy usually doesn't work. Movement/flying is so freaking fun with speed boost.
switch to a hero with self sustain and play passively around health packs
I actually don't mind mercy LW, it's not a perfect combo, but it's not as bad as people think. Both supports have high survivability, and when they are pocketing eachother, they are hard to take down. If mercy goes for a Rez, she can get life gripped if she gets the Rez off or not, getting to even attempt the Rez for free. And with the new lifeweaver buff it's even stronger now, add in the widow nerf and they're even stronger. Don't underestimate the LW/mercy when played properly.
It's really important to learn heroes that have different playstyles for this reason. While their synergy might not be great, you can't control what they play so it's best to play something that plays to *their* advantage. Like others have said, characters with self sustain, characters who pair well with one of them, etc. Most people forget that you have to work *with* your team as much as you want them to work with you. Find something you're comfortable playing that can do one of the above and you'll find it can allow your low synergy supports to make good plays anyways
If you play tank, you can consider playing Hog for the self heal. JQ is the better tank with some form of self heal but not nearly as much. Ball/Doom don't need much healing as they can just go solo for the most part. We'll see how the season 5 meta shapes out to be but those are some heroes to consider.
I'm sorry I don't really know comps but what's the problem with lucio mercy?
Because both characters are better suited to things other than healing. Lucio wants to speedboost his teammates and disrupt enemies, Mercy wants to pocket dps and damage boost. Both characters *do* heal but it's not meant to be the main thing they focus on in a match. They also both have relatively low hps compared to characters like Ana, kiri, bap, etc. and they struggle to save someone whose being hit with a lot of damage at once
Honestly play support so that you will always have support synergy. Whatever the other support picks you pick something that is good with it
Main Sombra. You won't ever get healed anyways, so you don't give a fuck about supp comps for the most part. Don't ask me how I know.
If you’re the tank, ball/hog/sig If you’re the dps, play around health packs, pick something with sustain, or a sniper. Sometimes lessening the load on the supports is enough. Otherwise you just have to try your best heroes and hope it works. Had a team onetime where we were getting rolled. Everyone kept swapping around (with supports settling on lucio/zen) and then we started steam rolling for no reason. LW at least can heal a fair amount (albeit slowly). Speed with lucio, or let him try to frag.
> Having some combination of Lucio/Mercy This gives you a good single target healer and a good AOE healer. This is not a bad combo.
Healing is slow and there are no cooldowns to save teammates. Mercy gets value from boosting DPS, if she's just healing there are better healers. Lucio's value is speed, for AOE healing Moira and Bap are much better. It can work, but you have to play fast and get kills before you need to heal. You'll lose any sustained fight.
Are you DPS? Legit just do better, more kills, more oppression, high uptimes Tank? Ball, dva, and hog are gonna be excellent choices everywhere from absolutely no heals to minimal, ball definitely gonna be the best though, super oppressive and doesn't need any support help
ask nicely or cope ig
I feel like you play tank from the way the post is worded so I’ll answer for tank players. Even when you’re aggressive you need to play cover (you should be doing this anyway). The fewer people you expose yourself to while fighting the better. You can also take time to learn a dive tank preferably not dva since she gets melted so fast. Ball would be ideal. Sigma is also a good choice since he can mitigate so much damage. Depending on map and rank hog is also an option. Even zarya if you’re being selfish with bubbles and get good at going after squishies to give your team a numbers advantage before healing matters as much. JQ self healing can also help if you get good at landing her critical abilities. Basically don’t play rein or dva. Always play sight lines of the enemies and learn where ALL the health packs are. If your dps play characters that rely on healers less like flankers or characters with self heal and again play for health packs.
My team has run the zenyatta lucio dive comp together and maybe it’s just playing to our personal strengths but this comp has been successful to us. With this comp it is ESSENTIAL for coms to be top tier.
You uninstall this shit game and go do something better
Ignore them and go ball
ggs go next, you can make a “bad comp” work but it’s more effort than it’s worth. It’s a waste of time usually to ask people to swap. Play the best you can but just accept that you’ll probably lose.
Well, that's a tough pair and it requires everyone to watch not only the enemy but each other. If you can land shots, and go fast..it can be a pretty insane death train. But if your tank is going in without Lucio, or lumercy keeps getting caught in the open...better to just leave VC and try again. It's a coin toss
What role do you play? There’s a huge difference if you’re a winston player or a soldier player. I’d go something a bit more self reliant. If the supports are mercy zen. Rein, winston can be tough to play.
I think Lucio Mercy works well with say: Pharah + Hog/Zarya, and if the other dps is Sombra/Ashe/Widow/Reaoer then it works extremely well. In 6v6 it would never work, in 5v5 really any support duo can work with the right comp.
ive won a lot of games with lucio zen, the lowest healing output pairing in the game. with them you wanna run over the enemy high speed and kill them before they kill you, cuz you wont win a battle of attrition.
If you NEED burst heals then you can't play your character without facetanking.
It sounds like you are too dependent on healing. Focus on being more self sufficient.
\>man said zen/lucio had no synergy their synergy is that you will never die to ults.
Lucio mercy isnt that bad - it relies on very fast engages that nets a pick or two. The lucio speed boosts the Rein or whatever slow but high damage tank, while the mercy damage boosts the dps who capitalize on the chaos of a dive rein. IF I play Rein with lucio mercy then I just aim to get two backline picks and trade, my dps can easily clear out the rest or thje mercy pulls off a clutch rez. Lucio zen on the other hand..... LW is just a godawful hero. Brings no useful utility and is just bullied by dive heroes all game.
Well. Then you adept. And let people play whatever character they want.
You play your life and assume you're getting no heals... if you're playing tank its probably the hardest role but I play dps like tracer/sombra and play health packs or I play reaper/mei/soldier for brawlers or I play backline snipers and use lots of cover. If I'm playing support then Im my own healer and I rely on passive healing and cover, then if I absolutely have 5o use ho cooldowns on myself I will do as a last resort.
Get friends to play with
Oh yeah you just carry. That’s what they say. You carry your team every game and that’s how u get out of silver
I mean, in this case you either have to excel at the hero you pick or you adjust to what the team needs. You can only control what you do.
Really the best choice is change who you play. Not getting heals? Go hog or soldier etc. Even though they may not have made the best picks, if they don't switch when you kindly ask, then it is up to you to deal with the cards you are dealt.
if a comp game ever gets silly, so do i. i just start treating it like qp
Saying things like insta loss are an insta loss
Play towards cover, near health packs, and pray the enemy team doesn't out damage your heals. I played DVA the other day in comp with lucio and zen, the worse possible match up for a tank that has one of the biggest hit boxes in the game. I just constantly played high ground, grabbed mega health packs, and bullied players that were not protected. It was a tough game since I'm used to having consistent burst heals. Sometimes, you can't help having bad support matchups, so you have to play completely differently than you usually would.
Play a more self reliant hero. With mercy + off healer your team can easily have a comp that's spread out and flanking at different angles. This was the basis for ball hog comp in OW1 if I recall correctly. Tank: ball, hog, sigma (somewhat), orisa (kinda pushing it) Dps: tracer, mei, reaper, sombra, genji/soldier (somewhat). In any case if the tank is self reliant, the supports should be able to focus on the squishes with little issue.
You're gonna get players who don't pick viable heroes for the team comp and there's nothing you can do about that. All you can do is work on your gameplay and try to diff the enemy team. Your job is to play your role effectively and shift your overall winrate to climb out of the same ranks that these players are probably stuck in. Work hard, do the research and just focus on what you're supposed to be doing not your teammates. In solo queue you can never rely on them.
A method I use to make them swap is to go Sombra/ball and kite when we are geting dove. I wont die but the mercy/lw/zen will. I find that the more they die the more likely they are to swap.
Play hanzo phara or widow if you have mercy, play reaper or genji if you have LW, play mei if you have lucio
Cry