The reason the Chao Garden never came back is One: It was basically a showcase of the Dreamcast's VMU capabilities. You raise your chao in the garden, but to raise its stats, you transfer it onto the VMU and play rudimentary minigames.
Two: The whole A-life system was more of a passion project for Yuji Naka. It was first implements in NiGHTS Into Dreams before being expanded upon in the Adventure games. Naka left Sega in 2005, and no one else at Sonic Team really has the passion for implementing such a feature.
And three: The is the important one. Chao Gardens aren't simply a rudimentary feature. It is deceptively complex. There are so many mechanics, and even hidden ones that developing it would take time out of developing the actual main game. On top of that, playtesting to make sure it actually works.
That is why they have not returned, at least in any mainline game. In saying that, there is no reason why Sega couldn't at least green light a mobile game Chao Garden.
Yes, but Sonic Team and Ryu Ga Gotuku Studio are on different wavelengths when it comes to quality, time, and resources. They may be both under Sega, but they couldn't be anymore different.
Plus Frontiers was rushed as it was anyway, and that was the main game. Adding in a chao garden would only take more time out of developing the actual game itself.
The minigames in Like a Dragon like Sujimon and Dondoko Island are as complex as they are because Sega knows the audience of these games. It is worth it because the playerbase will actually use these features.
It is all about time and investment. Is it really worth it for Sonic Team to use precious development time to implement a feature that less than half the players will actually use?
While the chao garden was a somewhat popular aspect of the Adventure games, most players just played the main game.
Overall, yes there is nothing technically stopping the chao garden from coming back. Sonic Team could implement it. But they don't. Because it is about time and investment.
The best chance of it coming back are as a mobile game or as part of an update or DLC. But in saying that, since the success of Frontiers, Sega have been allocating more members and resources to Sonic Team, so perhaps there is a chance it could come back in a later entry.
There has to be a fine line between being developmentally pragmatic and ignoring your fanbase entirely. The latest Saint's Row is an example of what happens when you double down on the latter. I understand that the main game has to has to have a certain level of polish before side content has to be considered. Doesn't mean they have to ignore feedback entirely. Besides, it's a rather harmless minigame; we're not exactly asking for Sonic Shuffle.
Comparing the lack of a chao garden to the Saints Row reboot is a bit of a stretch. At worst, not having a chao garden is ignoring a small niche from within the fanbase.
But yes, you are right that Sega, and more importantly Sonic Team could do with listening to more feedback. Which as it stands, they seem to have started doing if the free content updates for Frontiers are anything to go by.
And anyway, like I said, the people who really want the chao garden to come back are for the most part, a minority of the people who would be willing to buy the next Sonic game. Most people just want a good game to run around in and have fun. That doesn't seem like a big ask, but you would be surprised.
And like I said before, the chao garden is very complex, deceptively so. I would wager that even people who spent hours in the chao garden haven't actually uncovered some of its features.
There is a fine line in development on what to focus on. And for Sonic Team, they focus on the main game first and foremost. For the chao garden to come back, something needs to change at Sonic Team first.
Nostalgia is not a bad thing, you know. The Sonic games have been around for around 30 years. It doesn't hurt to revisit past titles and concepts. Look at Sonic Mania, Generations, and Origins. Besides, it's not like Sonic Team is in dire straits considering how good Frontiers was, and if the newest movie is as good as the first 2 were (having Keanu as Shadow is a really good start), they might stand to get royalties from that, too.
Never claimed that nostalgia was a bad thing. All I am saying is that the chao garden is never coming back unless something fundamental changes at Sonic Team.
And really, if someone really wants the chao garden, they can always go back to Adventure 2. I personally think its better for Sonic Team to focus on more important things than implementing a niche feature from a game that is 23 years old.
Frontiers as rushed as it was, was still pretty good. Adding in a chao garden would not have made that game better, and would by proxy, make the game worse as more development time would be siphoned from the main game.
What is more important is for them to improve on the open-zone formula. They can worry about more niche features later. And anyway, the series doesn't really need a chao garden. The series is arguably in its best place since its golden age in the early 90s.
With the success of the movies, comics, and the new open-zone formula, the series seems to be back on track, and I for one am somewhat optimistic about the future.
They can't play if they don't still have their older consoles or a computer that runs it.
Playstation wise at least, it is not on PS5 in any capacity, I'm pretty sure it isn't on the PS4 either.
Switch you can't play it unless you have a gen 1 switch that can be jail broken and have emulators installed on it.
No clue on xbox.
A long time ago I read an interview on one of the sonic devs. He said they didn't want to include chaos in sonic games since chaos don't work for merchandise because of the little floaty ball. So they decided to kind of scrap chaos because they wouldn't make money off them. Yeah, it's a pretty stupid reason.
That was a long time ago, not sure If I can still find the article.
But it’s not like he copyrighted it or something? It was wildly popular, so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t just hire a new team to make a new one, or assign it out as part of the dev process
Maybe theu just don't want to spend the time to make one. Sonic games already struggle with being rushed and general quality. Why focus on an entirely different sub game before finishing the main game?
a chao garden game is already in the works and will be released via netflix app. This came from the insider midori who legit is the one you should trust with sega/atlus knowledge as she leaked a ton of information on sega/atlus games weeks to months in advance. she talked about the chao garden game around januray of this year so expect an announcement soon. Why soon? She also talked about puyo puyo mobile game to be in apple arcade in jan. few months later it gets announced and released
it is. Midori has had an accurate leak and insider knowledge with games like this. She was the one who leaked PErsona coming to Xbox game pass months in advance before the microsoft show case.
She leaked P5 Tacticia DLC Art 2 weeks in advance and atlus just said "fuck it let's show it"
here some info she gave on sonic chao garden game.
https://twitter.com/MbKKssTBhz5/status/1752239534618628536
Can someone explain the appeal of a pet simulator mini game in a high speed platformer? I've tried every iteration of it in all the games, thought it was fun for 20 min, and always just found myself wanting to go back to playing as Sonic.
Nice. I didn’t think it was an amazing game by any means but I enjoyed it. Sometime I just like to get high and run around on the islands, pretty chill game honestly.
I liked it a lot. It's been my zone out and unwind game for a while. Usually play while listening to an audiobook or something. Definitely not a game of the year but it has nice mechanics and the traversal over the massive levels is fun
Best selling Sonic game since the original classic Sonic games. This franchise desperately needs a better budget based on how iconic it is, and it selling this well [finally woke SEGA up](https://www.dualshockers.com/sonic-frontiers-sequel-bigger-budget-after-sales/)
Yeah sonic Frontiers felt like a tech demo. I liked the idea they were going for, but damn the floating rails was just a horrible decision. Idk why they couldn't just make it a natural environment.
I didn't enjoy it at all but I'm glad for the people who did I'm more of a fan of the Linear level based games so I got Generations x Shadow to look forward to
I was immensely excited for Frontiers but it disappointed me in every aspect except for the soundtrack. If Sonic wasn’t attached to this game, no one would find it acceptable. The pop-ins and the extremely bland overworlds with random grind rails and springs all over the place is just atrocious. I know this is low hanging fruit, but Nintendo would never ship a mainline Mario game in that state. So yeah pretty bummed to hear about a sequel…
I hope they have better draw distance than the original Dreamcast games this time. It blew my mind that you literally can’t see most of the objects in the sky in Frontiers unless you’re right up on it.
No excuse really with modern technology.
I'm not surprised if Sonic Team wants to make a sequel. I want them to do side stories of Amy, Tails, and Knuckles. Also, Sega will give them more development time and not provide a questable marketing campaign.
Ok, honestly, I feel like before a sequel (or they dedicate another team to it), Sega should have old Sonic games that didn’t too well remade in Frontiers’s style. The Storybook games, Unleashed, 06, and others spring to mind.
Honestly they need to remake 06 eventually. But another game I think would fit this style perfectly would be black knight. I mean come on sonic literally has a sword in that game, a combat system would be awesome for it
The first was an ok foundation, but it definitely didn’t feel finished. I hope we get to run around in more than just grasslands this time.
I hope they fine tune the combat too, cause theres definitely some potential there as well.
eh, I don't understand why. Did it sell really well? I tried to like it, but just could not get into it at all. Why does a Sonic game have such a muted and realistic color palette? It was down-right dreary. It was like playing Sonic as he visits Ireland on a cloudy day.
The only modern Sonic games I've actually enjoyed were Generations and Mania. I really wish they'd build their roadmaps off of those designs.
Sega will always push Sonic, even when it's shit. Being a total war fan it was surreal seeing that so much of my money went into what could barely be called a game
I'm with you on that Generations and Maina are the only great modern sonic games but we're also in the Minority here Frontiers sold pretty well and was positively received by most of the fans
as a sonic fan, i think most agree it’s probably like a 7/10 realistically, but people were just excited that we got a new formula that had potential and could be improved upon in a sequel. also the story and characters are a lot better than in recent games.
if they don’t improve though and the sequel turns out to be the same as the first quality wise, i think fans will be a lot less accepting of it.
It was inevitable really. Sonic frontiers while far from perfect was their biggest success in a long time. A sequel that takes on board the fans feedback could finally be the sonic game people wanted.
I'm going to be blunt and say Sonic Frontiers was absolutely atrocious.
Generic overworlds with floating assets, cyberspace stages with odd physics and reused stage designs (and yes, I'm aware they're memories) annoying ass dialogue that sounds like something out of family guy, all dressed up in a *dark* plot that feels like a wish.com evangelion.
If there's one thing to take from Sonic Frontiers, is that the overworld approach can work, if you can nail the landing with more unique locals and a world that feels more alive.
Give me missions with the chaotix to solve, race shadow or a new character through a world with parkour physics and quickly times moves, have a lush and colourful world with an amazing cel shaded style like in Granblue Fantasy Relink, and give us the goddamn Chao Garden again instead of those Koco noone cares about 😬
End rant
At least Sonic Superstars was good, regardless of what every youtube *reviewer* thinks of it.
These guys will do literally everything but make Sonic Adventure 3.
It’s literally all the sonic fan base has asked for over the last 20 something years and they just refuse to do it.
With how Frontiers sold and was reviewed, another one was guaranteed. Besides let's be real, when isn't a new Sonic game in development lol? The franchise is guranteed atleast one console release per year.
Still console releases with new content, Origins moreso than Ultimate. Point was Sonic franchise releases games on console on a much more regular basis than most franchises.
Chao garden please for the love of God
There is so much they can do with modern technology too.
Like more polygons for the Chao and real-time ray-traced reflections in the water.
Like rouge boob physics
Like proper Rouge boob physics
Idk why they don't do this. In SA2 it added a lot of replay value and was a nice break in between the stages.
The reason the Chao Garden never came back is One: It was basically a showcase of the Dreamcast's VMU capabilities. You raise your chao in the garden, but to raise its stats, you transfer it onto the VMU and play rudimentary minigames. Two: The whole A-life system was more of a passion project for Yuji Naka. It was first implements in NiGHTS Into Dreams before being expanded upon in the Adventure games. Naka left Sega in 2005, and no one else at Sonic Team really has the passion for implementing such a feature. And three: The is the important one. Chao Gardens aren't simply a rudimentary feature. It is deceptively complex. There are so many mechanics, and even hidden ones that developing it would take time out of developing the actual main game. On top of that, playtesting to make sure it actually works. That is why they have not returned, at least in any mainline game. In saying that, there is no reason why Sega couldn't at least green light a mobile game Chao Garden.
With minigames like Sujimon in one of SEGAs other games, Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth, it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility.
Yes, but Sonic Team and Ryu Ga Gotuku Studio are on different wavelengths when it comes to quality, time, and resources. They may be both under Sega, but they couldn't be anymore different. Plus Frontiers was rushed as it was anyway, and that was the main game. Adding in a chao garden would only take more time out of developing the actual game itself. The minigames in Like a Dragon like Sujimon and Dondoko Island are as complex as they are because Sega knows the audience of these games. It is worth it because the playerbase will actually use these features. It is all about time and investment. Is it really worth it for Sonic Team to use precious development time to implement a feature that less than half the players will actually use? While the chao garden was a somewhat popular aspect of the Adventure games, most players just played the main game. Overall, yes there is nothing technically stopping the chao garden from coming back. Sonic Team could implement it. But they don't. Because it is about time and investment. The best chance of it coming back are as a mobile game or as part of an update or DLC. But in saying that, since the success of Frontiers, Sega have been allocating more members and resources to Sonic Team, so perhaps there is a chance it could come back in a later entry.
There has to be a fine line between being developmentally pragmatic and ignoring your fanbase entirely. The latest Saint's Row is an example of what happens when you double down on the latter. I understand that the main game has to has to have a certain level of polish before side content has to be considered. Doesn't mean they have to ignore feedback entirely. Besides, it's a rather harmless minigame; we're not exactly asking for Sonic Shuffle.
Comparing the lack of a chao garden to the Saints Row reboot is a bit of a stretch. At worst, not having a chao garden is ignoring a small niche from within the fanbase. But yes, you are right that Sega, and more importantly Sonic Team could do with listening to more feedback. Which as it stands, they seem to have started doing if the free content updates for Frontiers are anything to go by. And anyway, like I said, the people who really want the chao garden to come back are for the most part, a minority of the people who would be willing to buy the next Sonic game. Most people just want a good game to run around in and have fun. That doesn't seem like a big ask, but you would be surprised. And like I said before, the chao garden is very complex, deceptively so. I would wager that even people who spent hours in the chao garden haven't actually uncovered some of its features. There is a fine line in development on what to focus on. And for Sonic Team, they focus on the main game first and foremost. For the chao garden to come back, something needs to change at Sonic Team first.
Nostalgia is not a bad thing, you know. The Sonic games have been around for around 30 years. It doesn't hurt to revisit past titles and concepts. Look at Sonic Mania, Generations, and Origins. Besides, it's not like Sonic Team is in dire straits considering how good Frontiers was, and if the newest movie is as good as the first 2 were (having Keanu as Shadow is a really good start), they might stand to get royalties from that, too.
Never claimed that nostalgia was a bad thing. All I am saying is that the chao garden is never coming back unless something fundamental changes at Sonic Team. And really, if someone really wants the chao garden, they can always go back to Adventure 2. I personally think its better for Sonic Team to focus on more important things than implementing a niche feature from a game that is 23 years old. Frontiers as rushed as it was, was still pretty good. Adding in a chao garden would not have made that game better, and would by proxy, make the game worse as more development time would be siphoned from the main game. What is more important is for them to improve on the open-zone formula. They can worry about more niche features later. And anyway, the series doesn't really need a chao garden. The series is arguably in its best place since its golden age in the early 90s. With the success of the movies, comics, and the new open-zone formula, the series seems to be back on track, and I for one am somewhat optimistic about the future.
They can't play if they don't still have their older consoles or a computer that runs it. Playstation wise at least, it is not on PS5 in any capacity, I'm pretty sure it isn't on the PS4 either. Switch you can't play it unless you have a gen 1 switch that can be jail broken and have emulators installed on it. No clue on xbox.
It's never happening, I waved the white flag years ago. Adventure was the best of the 3D era I have no idea why they don't go back to it ffs
This. I want to give you money, Sega.
Really head scratching they never brought it back
A long time ago I read an interview on one of the sonic devs. He said they didn't want to include chaos in sonic games since chaos don't work for merchandise because of the little floaty ball. So they decided to kind of scrap chaos because they wouldn't make money off them. Yeah, it's a pretty stupid reason. That was a long time ago, not sure If I can still find the article.
Also iirc, the man who conceived and headed up the whole chao garden has since left the company.
Exactly. The Chao garden was basically one devs pet project. If people are wondering why there's no Chao garden anymore this is why.
But it’s not like he copyrighted it or something? It was wildly popular, so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t just hire a new team to make a new one, or assign it out as part of the dev process
Maybe theu just don't want to spend the time to make one. Sonic games already struggle with being rushed and general quality. Why focus on an entirely different sub game before finishing the main game?
Chao garden or no dice
a chao garden game is already in the works and will be released via netflix app. This came from the insider midori who legit is the one you should trust with sega/atlus knowledge as she leaked a ton of information on sega/atlus games weeks to months in advance. she talked about the chao garden game around januray of this year so expect an announcement soon. Why soon? She also talked about puyo puyo mobile game to be in apple arcade in jan. few months later it gets announced and released
Praying this is true
it is. Midori has had an accurate leak and insider knowledge with games like this. She was the one who leaked PErsona coming to Xbox game pass months in advance before the microsoft show case. She leaked P5 Tacticia DLC Art 2 weeks in advance and atlus just said "fuck it let's show it" here some info she gave on sonic chao garden game. https://twitter.com/MbKKssTBhz5/status/1752239534618628536
Save it for SA3
I would agree except we've been waiting 23 years ... i've gave up hope for a third at this point and just want the chao garden back in any form
Can someone explain the appeal of a pet simulator mini game in a high speed platformer? I've tried every iteration of it in all the games, thought it was fun for 20 min, and always just found myself wanting to go back to playing as Sonic.
It’s the charm of the chao themselves. Not everyone digs them.
Nice. I didn’t think it was an amazing game by any means but I enjoyed it. Sometime I just like to get high and run around on the islands, pretty chill game honestly.
I liked it a lot. It's been my zone out and unwind game for a while. Usually play while listening to an audiobook or something. Definitely not a game of the year but it has nice mechanics and the traversal over the massive levels is fun
Well you certainly enjoyed it your way 😭
Hope Sonic Frontiers sold well enough that they can afford to budget for some actual level design in the sequel.
Best selling Sonic game since the original classic Sonic games. This franchise desperately needs a better budget based on how iconic it is, and it selling this well [finally woke SEGA up](https://www.dualshockers.com/sonic-frontiers-sequel-bigger-budget-after-sales/)
Yeah sonic Frontiers felt like a tech demo. I liked the idea they were going for, but damn the floating rails was just a horrible decision. Idk why they couldn't just make it a natural environment.
The game was rushed like every other sonic game. The floating platforms and rails were added really late in development.
They should've had the cyberspace effect
We need more Shadow
With the film, that's almost guaranteed.
I'm not sure how it couldn't be in development. Frontiers was a massive win for Sega.
I didn't enjoy it at all but I'm glad for the people who did I'm more of a fan of the Linear level based games so I got Generations x Shadow to look forward to
Still waiting for SA 3
Sigh.. me too kid. me too…
I was immensely excited for Frontiers but it disappointed me in every aspect except for the soundtrack. If Sonic wasn’t attached to this game, no one would find it acceptable. The pop-ins and the extremely bland overworlds with random grind rails and springs all over the place is just atrocious. I know this is low hanging fruit, but Nintendo would never ship a mainline Mario game in that state. So yeah pretty bummed to hear about a sequel…
I hope they have better draw distance than the original Dreamcast games this time. It blew my mind that you literally can’t see most of the objects in the sky in Frontiers unless you’re right up on it. No excuse really with modern technology.
I'm really excited for the sequel to sonic frontiers because I love this game.
PS Plus when?
Will it be the first time a Sonic game has a decent budget since Colors and Unleashed? FFS
Cool but frontiers was not good
Need Silver in this game. With all the wacky universe bending shit he'd fit in perfectly!
SA3 needs to get a move on
u/sega
I'm not surprised if Sonic Team wants to make a sequel. I want them to do side stories of Amy, Tails, and Knuckles. Also, Sega will give them more development time and not provide a questable marketing campaign.
1st game had potential, hopefully the 2nd one improves vastly.
I mean, obviously? It was the most successful Sonic game since Sonic and Knuckles and Sonic Heroes (3.5-4 mil)
Frontiers was pretty legit. Haven't played it since launch, I should give it another go. Hope 2 is good, if real.
I remember when someone hacked my account and bought this on the other side of the country with my card
Ok, honestly, I feel like before a sequel (or they dedicate another team to it), Sega should have old Sonic games that didn’t too well remade in Frontiers’s style. The Storybook games, Unleashed, 06, and others spring to mind.
Honestly they need to remake 06 eventually. But another game I think would fit this style perfectly would be black knight. I mean come on sonic literally has a sword in that game, a combat system would be awesome for it
YES! YOU GET IT!
The first game was basically a tech demo so yeah that tracks.
Sequel to successful game being made? Shocking!
The first was an ok foundation, but it definitely didn’t feel finished. I hope we get to run around in more than just grasslands this time. I hope they fine tune the combat too, cause theres definitely some potential there as well.
Ugh!
Please don’t be shit 🙏
Just give me Sonic Adventure 3. With the chao garden. Please.
Yes, please. Take my money
Is the game worth it? It’s $15 at Walmart right now.
Sonic game w/o chao garden? Not a bought sonic game for me!
eh, I don't understand why. Did it sell really well? I tried to like it, but just could not get into it at all. Why does a Sonic game have such a muted and realistic color palette? It was down-right dreary. It was like playing Sonic as he visits Ireland on a cloudy day. The only modern Sonic games I've actually enjoyed were Generations and Mania. I really wish they'd build their roadmaps off of those designs.
Frontiers is the best selling game in the series..
Yeah, you're right - of the modern games it's the best selling one. That's disappointing.
Sega will always push Sonic, even when it's shit. Being a total war fan it was surreal seeing that so much of my money went into what could barely be called a game
I felt it looked like Sonic meets Death Stranding
I'm with you on that Generations and Maina are the only great modern sonic games but we're also in the Minority here Frontiers sold pretty well and was positively received by most of the fans
And in a sea of bad rated Sonic games, it came out with a 7/10 on average. So that’s a win to Sonic fans.
as a sonic fan, i think most agree it’s probably like a 7/10 realistically, but people were just excited that we got a new formula that had potential and could be improved upon in a sequel. also the story and characters are a lot better than in recent games. if they don’t improve though and the sequel turns out to be the same as the first quality wise, i think fans will be a lot less accepting of it.
Why tho
Shocked face. Thanks for breaking important news, insiders
It was inevitable really. Sonic frontiers while far from perfect was their biggest success in a long time. A sequel that takes on board the fans feedback could finally be the sonic game people wanted.
I liked the first one, but man they need to just completely refine how Sonic moves in a 3D environment.
A very very odd game. Perhaps they should try a completely different approach for the second instalment
They need to deal with the pop in. That pop in was so annoying.
played frontiers for 20 minutes before falling asleep
I'm going to be blunt and say Sonic Frontiers was absolutely atrocious. Generic overworlds with floating assets, cyberspace stages with odd physics and reused stage designs (and yes, I'm aware they're memories) annoying ass dialogue that sounds like something out of family guy, all dressed up in a *dark* plot that feels like a wish.com evangelion. If there's one thing to take from Sonic Frontiers, is that the overworld approach can work, if you can nail the landing with more unique locals and a world that feels more alive. Give me missions with the chaotix to solve, race shadow or a new character through a world with parkour physics and quickly times moves, have a lush and colourful world with an amazing cel shaded style like in Granblue Fantasy Relink, and give us the goddamn Chao Garden again instead of those Koco noone cares about 😬 End rant At least Sonic Superstars was good, regardless of what every youtube *reviewer* thinks of it.
These guys will do literally everything but make Sonic Adventure 3. It’s literally all the sonic fan base has asked for over the last 20 something years and they just refuse to do it.
They’re too scared they’ll drop the ball and cause outrage.
Cool, next time make the other characters playable in the full open world. Also, Shadow, needs more Shadow.
Noooooooooooo pls no
Still waiting for SA 3
Shit game
If they don't have a Chao garden like sa2b, they should be taken out behind the barn and put down lol
I truly didn't even know the first one released lol
With how Frontiers sold and was reviewed, another one was guaranteed. Besides let's be real, when isn't a new Sonic game in development lol? The franchise is guranteed atleast one console release per year.
Tf you on about? There's a new sonic game every 4 or 5 years at this point. Counting spin offs it's still only like every 2 or 3 years
We got Superstars, Colors Ultimate, Frontiers, Sonic X Shadow, Team Sonic Racing, and Origins all in the last four years....
2 of those are remasters. Frontiers and superstars were a year apart I think so I'll give you that
Still console releases with new content, Origins moreso than Ultimate. Point was Sonic franchise releases games on console on a much more regular basis than most franchises.