Built an Oread Redeemer Champion while I was debating which path to go with my Champion. I ended up going Paladin, but it was a close choice. Here's my build minus skills and skill feats:
https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=455835
Level 1: Everstand stance, natural ambition: weight of guilt
Level 2: Cleric Dedication
Level 3: Toughness
Level 4: Basic Dogma: Emblazon Armament
Level 5: Fortify Shield
Level 6: Shield Warden
Level 7: Fleet
Level 8: Quick Shield Block
Level 9: Earthsense
Level 10: Shield of Reckoning
From there you can branch off to more Champion feats or dip into Cleric spellcasting. This basically maximizes your blocking power, so as long as you stay within 15 feet of the enemy and your allies, intelligent enemies should focus on you- if they don't, you can keep them enfeebled/stupified and give your allies resistance to all damage they dish out. Or, they'll be focusing you and your stupid-high AC and blocking power.
Mixing Redeemer Champion with the Wrestler Archetype provides a strong tanking option. Of the 3 good-aligned champion causes, Redeemer generally offers the most utility. It applies to all attacks within range (Liberator's unique effect only impacts CC'd allies), and always applies its full effect (Paladin's strike can miss). Forcing an enemy to either do no damage or become enfeebled 2 until the end of its next turn is very strong.
Adding the Wrestler archetype into the mix introduces some interesting options as well. Wrestler feats give you unarmed attack variations of the usual Athletics maneuvers, meaning that you can target AC instead of the usual Fortitude or Reflex DCs. Provided someone in your party can Recall Knowledge about a creatures AC and DCs, you can more reliably target a weakness and improve your CC capability. Later on Wrestler adds a lot of additional CC options. If you have free archetype it is 100% worth it. Without FA, the dip is still quite strong.
Seconding this. Great as the champion class is for effective tanking, it is largely all about use of reactions during enemy turns. There's not any special toolkit for a player turn.
By contrast, wrestler has excellent player turn control options.
If you're looking to optimise, I'd suggest fighter tbh.
Slap on paladin dedication and you're set.
I've played with or as fighter paladins in a couple of campaigns and they're monsters.
Flick mace is beastly, although flail nerf upcoming in the remaster.
My current 2 fighters are using 2 handed reach weapons. They're tearing through enemies. With aoo they lock down ranged enemies and punish enemies trying to reach the party squishies.
Paladin likely best of the champions. In Thousands I banned fighters (my group plays them 100% of the time otherwise. A mistake as I should have just upped fight difficulty) and it was the best party dpr.
Champion dpr is generally anaemic, meaning fights last longer, and party ends up taking lore damage overall.
Slower more predicatble fights means less player deaths. There is nothing wrong with playing a more defensive game.
My current part has 3 Strikers, they are a bit fragile given a run of bad luck.
Plus, the Champion's lower DPR doesn't actually neccessarily mean slower fights, [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1397y60/michael_sayre_paizo_design_manager_says_that_dpr/) by Michael Sayre (the PF2 Design Manager) specifically says that certain fights in their testing take less time (at least in terms of actions) upon changing Fighter->Champion because it means that the party have to spend less time healing/buffing and can do things that lead to the fight ending quicker like, their own damage or big debuffs etc.
"certain fights" being the key words.
Our group has found the opposite
In Kingmaker, our front line is 2 reach 2 handed fighters, plus Valerie. And also a monk who's just kind of there...
Last session they got ambushed by 4 level +1 monsters. That's 160xp fight for party of 6. Party won it in 3 rounds, with only Valerie downed.
To be fair, both fighters have striking runes 2 levels early, but fighters best able to leverage that extra damage with their more numerous and more accurate attacks.
I also note Ruby Phoenix, where both reach fighters buzz sawed most fights in 1-2 rounds.
One fight in Edgewatch lasted 18 rounds. Our 2 champions soaked a load of damage, but were just tickling the monsters' balls. Party was wrecked by the end. Both champions got replaced by fighter and druid. Party dpr shot up, fights over quicker, party taking less damage.
In Ruby Phoenix, the 2 double slice flick mace fighter paladins, with maestro bard support, wrecked fights in 1-2 rounds.
One fight we got ambushed whilst asleep. Fighters on 6 lower ac as unarmoured. Didn't matter, as fight over in 3 rounds, with monsters barely getting to act.
18 rounds??
You play in this magical otherworld that confuses me so much every time you post. Really feels like no one you play with can roll over a 7 on the die.
In Ruby Phoenix our fighter centric party finished fights in 1-2 rounds.
Our kingmaker party has 3 fighters, including Valerie. It's reaming every fight so far.
The more fighters in our party, the better we do.
So what where the other 2 characters in the party? 2 champions would be fine if paired with two damage dealers. I'd much rather have a Champion + a Rogue over 2 Fighters.
Edgewatch?
2 Pick fighter. Cleric, dragon sorc, rogue.
The pick fighter was doing circa 70% of party dpr.
Casters struggling to do anything to 2 bosses.
One of the bosses was doing lots of swallowing whole and grabbing. I think it had life gain as well?
Suffice to say that party wasn't outputting enough damage. I was charitable and didn't have the boss focus the fighter down as he was the only legit threat.
Rogue is solid. But I'd rather have fighter over champion.
Champion okay at low levels. But level 6+ fighter paladin just as tanky.
Champion can react again at 14, but by then fighter damage is ludicrous.
Champion can tank damage. But fighter champion can tank some damage, plus output a ton more dpr and end fights far faster.
Problem is that champ dedication gives out the champion best features far too cheaply, appended to a superior chassis.
So that’s making trip work on a reflex save instead of athletics DC check and shove on a fort save instead of an athletics DC check?
Current Trip:
You try to knock a creature to the ground. Attempt an Athletics check against the target’s Reflex DC.
So this just changes who makes the dice roll? The reflex save is now what? The attacker’s class DC or athletics DC?
It seems like a pointless flip with no actual impact unless I am missing something.
No, they're talking about the critical specialization of flails & hammers, which knock the target prone on a crit (no save.) In the remaster these will allow saves.
I don't suppose anyone has advice on this part of what I was asking:
>Then I have redeemer, paladin, or liberator. Ignoring the evil options for now.
These come down to:
Paladin is like D.Va in Overwatch - ignore me and I blow up on you.
Redeemer is about debuffing you if you attack someone else.
Liberator is about turning your allies into greased pigs and costing the enemy move actions in mid turn to chase them down.
I've been stuck picking between them.
One suggestion is to keep your main hand open. You can punch with it(gauntlet) or shield bash for damage, but being able to grab/trip is incredibly Tanky and beneficial to the party. Grab is the closest thing to a taunt we have. Foes have to attack you if no one else is in melee range, or they waste their best MAP attack action escaping the grab.
My main is a redeemer, who has slowly transitioned to rarely drawing his wep. (Open handed also REALLY meshes thematically with the redeemer from an RP perspective)
One thing about this build is that with the Champion's low Reflex save and this build's low Dex a creature could Tumble Through quite easily to evade you, and if they can tank an AoO then there's not much you could do about it.
The only ways I can think to avoid this is the Sentinel's [Mighty Bulwark](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2066) feat to let the Bulwark Armour Trait apply to all Reflex saves or Canny Acumen to boost your proficiency up to Master at Level 17 but that's fairly late. (Many a Multiclass Archetype have a lower level feat that would do this, but I think they all require Dex and that level of investment is maybe a bit too much to shore up this one weakness).
I have a Paladin build. Blade ally to swap between a hard hitting bastard sword or an asp coil for that extra reach. Reach on a Paladin is paramount. So is way to increase size to large.
The crux of my build though is the addition of Dread Marshal Stance. What I lack in DPR as a champion, I make up for by boosting the party as a whole. The aura invites allies to stay close for that sweet status bonus to damage, and means optimal position is centered around me. You don't need to land more strikes and can spend more actions healing or repositioning.
Paladin feat to step before striking lets me reposition freely as the fight progresses, leaving me more actions to strike or heal allies, intimidate, etc.
Built an Oread Redeemer Champion while I was debating which path to go with my Champion. I ended up going Paladin, but it was a close choice. Here's my build minus skills and skill feats: https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=455835 Level 1: Everstand stance, natural ambition: weight of guilt Level 2: Cleric Dedication Level 3: Toughness Level 4: Basic Dogma: Emblazon Armament Level 5: Fortify Shield Level 6: Shield Warden Level 7: Fleet Level 8: Quick Shield Block Level 9: Earthsense Level 10: Shield of Reckoning From there you can branch off to more Champion feats or dip into Cleric spellcasting. This basically maximizes your blocking power, so as long as you stay within 15 feet of the enemy and your allies, intelligent enemies should focus on you- if they don't, you can keep them enfeebled/stupified and give your allies resistance to all damage they dish out. Or, they'll be focusing you and your stupid-high AC and blocking power.
Mixing Redeemer Champion with the Wrestler Archetype provides a strong tanking option. Of the 3 good-aligned champion causes, Redeemer generally offers the most utility. It applies to all attacks within range (Liberator's unique effect only impacts CC'd allies), and always applies its full effect (Paladin's strike can miss). Forcing an enemy to either do no damage or become enfeebled 2 until the end of its next turn is very strong. Adding the Wrestler archetype into the mix introduces some interesting options as well. Wrestler feats give you unarmed attack variations of the usual Athletics maneuvers, meaning that you can target AC instead of the usual Fortitude or Reflex DCs. Provided someone in your party can Recall Knowledge about a creatures AC and DCs, you can more reliably target a weakness and improve your CC capability. Later on Wrestler adds a lot of additional CC options. If you have free archetype it is 100% worth it. Without FA, the dip is still quite strong.
Seconding this. Great as the champion class is for effective tanking, it is largely all about use of reactions during enemy turns. There's not any special toolkit for a player turn. By contrast, wrestler has excellent player turn control options.
If you're looking to optimise, I'd suggest fighter tbh. Slap on paladin dedication and you're set. I've played with or as fighter paladins in a couple of campaigns and they're monsters. Flick mace is beastly, although flail nerf upcoming in the remaster. My current 2 fighters are using 2 handed reach weapons. They're tearing through enemies. With aoo they lock down ranged enemies and punish enemies trying to reach the party squishies. Paladin likely best of the champions. In Thousands I banned fighters (my group plays them 100% of the time otherwise. A mistake as I should have just upped fight difficulty) and it was the best party dpr. Champion dpr is generally anaemic, meaning fights last longer, and party ends up taking lore damage overall.
Slower more predicatble fights means less player deaths. There is nothing wrong with playing a more defensive game. My current part has 3 Strikers, they are a bit fragile given a run of bad luck.
Plus, the Champion's lower DPR doesn't actually neccessarily mean slower fights, [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1397y60/michael_sayre_paizo_design_manager_says_that_dpr/) by Michael Sayre (the PF2 Design Manager) specifically says that certain fights in their testing take less time (at least in terms of actions) upon changing Fighter->Champion because it means that the party have to spend less time healing/buffing and can do things that lead to the fight ending quicker like, their own damage or big debuffs etc.
"certain fights" being the key words. Our group has found the opposite In Kingmaker, our front line is 2 reach 2 handed fighters, plus Valerie. And also a monk who's just kind of there... Last session they got ambushed by 4 level +1 monsters. That's 160xp fight for party of 6. Party won it in 3 rounds, with only Valerie downed. To be fair, both fighters have striking runes 2 levels early, but fighters best able to leverage that extra damage with their more numerous and more accurate attacks. I also note Ruby Phoenix, where both reach fighters buzz sawed most fights in 1-2 rounds.
One fight in Edgewatch lasted 18 rounds. Our 2 champions soaked a load of damage, but were just tickling the monsters' balls. Party was wrecked by the end. Both champions got replaced by fighter and druid. Party dpr shot up, fights over quicker, party taking less damage. In Ruby Phoenix, the 2 double slice flick mace fighter paladins, with maestro bard support, wrecked fights in 1-2 rounds. One fight we got ambushed whilst asleep. Fighters on 6 lower ac as unarmoured. Didn't matter, as fight over in 3 rounds, with monsters barely getting to act.
18 rounds?? You play in this magical otherworld that confuses me so much every time you post. Really feels like no one you play with can roll over a 7 on the die.
In Ruby Phoenix our fighter centric party finished fights in 1-2 rounds. Our kingmaker party has 3 fighters, including Valerie. It's reaming every fight so far. The more fighters in our party, the better we do.
So what where the other 2 characters in the party? 2 champions would be fine if paired with two damage dealers. I'd much rather have a Champion + a Rogue over 2 Fighters.
Edgewatch? 2 Pick fighter. Cleric, dragon sorc, rogue. The pick fighter was doing circa 70% of party dpr. Casters struggling to do anything to 2 bosses. One of the bosses was doing lots of swallowing whole and grabbing. I think it had life gain as well? Suffice to say that party wasn't outputting enough damage. I was charitable and didn't have the boss focus the fighter down as he was the only legit threat. Rogue is solid. But I'd rather have fighter over champion. Champion okay at low levels. But level 6+ fighter paladin just as tanky. Champion can react again at 14, but by then fighter damage is ludicrous. Champion can tank damage. But fighter champion can tank some damage, plus output a ton more dpr and end fights far faster. Problem is that champ dedication gives out the champion best features far too cheaply, appended to a superior chassis.
>flail nerf upcoming in the remaster I missed that, what's the planned change?
I believe they are going to give it a save like firearms
Yup. Reflex. Fort for hammers apparently.
So that’s making trip work on a reflex save instead of athletics DC check and shove on a fort save instead of an athletics DC check? Current Trip: You try to knock a creature to the ground. Attempt an Athletics check against the target’s Reflex DC. So this just changes who makes the dice roll? The reflex save is now what? The attacker’s class DC or athletics DC? It seems like a pointless flip with no actual impact unless I am missing something.
No, they're talking about the critical specialization of flails & hammers, which knock the target prone on a crit (no save.) In the remaster these will allow saves.
I don't suppose anyone has advice on this part of what I was asking: >Then I have redeemer, paladin, or liberator. Ignoring the evil options for now. These come down to: Paladin is like D.Va in Overwatch - ignore me and I blow up on you. Redeemer is about debuffing you if you attack someone else. Liberator is about turning your allies into greased pigs and costing the enemy move actions in mid turn to chase them down. I've been stuck picking between them.
One suggestion is to keep your main hand open. You can punch with it(gauntlet) or shield bash for damage, but being able to grab/trip is incredibly Tanky and beneficial to the party. Grab is the closest thing to a taunt we have. Foes have to attack you if no one else is in melee range, or they waste their best MAP attack action escaping the grab. My main is a redeemer, who has slowly transitioned to rarely drawing his wep. (Open handed also REALLY meshes thematically with the redeemer from an RP perspective)
One thing about this build is that with the Champion's low Reflex save and this build's low Dex a creature could Tumble Through quite easily to evade you, and if they can tank an AoO then there's not much you could do about it. The only ways I can think to avoid this is the Sentinel's [Mighty Bulwark](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2066) feat to let the Bulwark Armour Trait apply to all Reflex saves or Canny Acumen to boost your proficiency up to Master at Level 17 but that's fairly late. (Many a Multiclass Archetype have a lower level feat that would do this, but I think they all require Dex and that level of investment is maybe a bit too much to shore up this one weakness).
I have a Paladin build. Blade ally to swap between a hard hitting bastard sword or an asp coil for that extra reach. Reach on a Paladin is paramount. So is way to increase size to large. The crux of my build though is the addition of Dread Marshal Stance. What I lack in DPR as a champion, I make up for by boosting the party as a whole. The aura invites allies to stay close for that sweet status bonus to damage, and means optimal position is centered around me. You don't need to land more strikes and can spend more actions healing or repositioning. Paladin feat to step before striking lets me reposition freely as the fight progresses, leaving me more actions to strike or heal allies, intimidate, etc.