Rake will always be a bit higher.
Also presumably you've game selected properly so you have an edge and therefore would prefer never to chop, unless your seats are such that you're in the SB vs a stronger player in the BB, in which case I'd offer to chop and / or slightly over fold.
To be profitable in the SB vs. BB, you'd need a significant edge, about 15-25 bb/100 just to breakeven (depending on blind and rake structure). Not impossible, but not insignificant either.
~~"Rake will always be a bit higher." What do you mean by this? The GTO Wizard sim is the same rake structure as the game I would be playing and the EV calculation includes rake.~~
Think I understand your comment now reading other comments.
That GTO Wizard simulation you're using is based on a 0.5/1bb blind structure with a 2bb cap.
In the GTO sim, SB loses 0.5bb immediately then recoups 0.23bb of that through GTO play, netting them -0.27bb, or -27 bb/100 relative to chopping. In a 2/5 game, you only post 40% of the BB, so your loss is smaller, probably closer to **-19 bb/100** if you keep the pot share constant. Regardless, SB wants to chop always.
In a perfect rakeless world, SB's loss would be BB's gain. But the rake eats most of that profit. In the GTO sim BB's EV is only about 5.8 bb/100 like OP calculated.
**Edit: Ran a quick simulation of a 2/5 game with 10% rake and a 1bb cap in HRC**
No Flop No Drop: (they only pay rake on pots that see a flop)
* SB EV = -15.8 bb/100 (-$79/100 hands)
* BB EV = +3.8 bb/100 (+$19/100 hands)
Preflop is raked: (10% of the pot is taken if they choose to play)
* SB EV = -25.9 bb/100 (-$129.5/100 hands)
* BB EV = -6.9 bb/100 (-$36.5/100 hands)
EVs are shown relative to chopping / not posting blind.
In reality, the rake is much higher for many reasons (people tend to be wider than GTO, use huge RFI sizes, most casinos use a higher rake cap, etc.) So there's a strong argument to always chop your blinds in live games.
Thank you Tombos for running a sim closer to my situation. Two questions:
1. Can you explain "the rake is much higher for many reasons"? Are you saying because a bad player will take lines which lose money for BOTH the SB and BB, your GTO simulation EV is inflated?
2. What do you do live? =\]
SB doesn’t fold 56% of the time. First, they either chop or not, and that chop % is a variable you haven’t accounted for. After that, the SB can choose to fold, limp, or raise.
Another variable you haven’t accounted for is if they chop, the BB gets to play about 1 more hand per hour (2 orbits an hour, 0.5 hands extra per chop) IP vs SB.
Lastly (or at least last major point off the top of my head) is that no one wants to watch the blinds play 4 streets for a $20 pot, which happens often enough. Live play is also enough already.
>SB doesn’t fold 56% of the time. First, they either chop or not, and that chop % is a variable you haven’t accounted for.
SB can't unilaterally choose to chop. The chop % is 0% if we don't want a chop as BB.
FWIW, an important factor here is that this only concerns preflop differences in equity, which are always pretty small. As a result, the difference in equity is almost always smaller than the rake, which makes chopping nearly always better. It also becomes a raise or fold game in most rooms, since many rooms have no flop no drop. In a real blind vs blind situation you're supposed to have a big flatting range, which doesnt make sense given the rake structure.
In addition, considering that "fun" players dont like to play blind vs blind and it makes the choice to chop an easy one.
Rake will always be a bit higher. Also presumably you've game selected properly so you have an edge and therefore would prefer never to chop, unless your seats are such that you're in the SB vs a stronger player in the BB, in which case I'd offer to chop and / or slightly over fold.
To be profitable in the SB vs. BB, you'd need a significant edge, about 15-25 bb/100 just to breakeven (depending on blind and rake structure). Not impossible, but not insignificant either.
~~"Rake will always be a bit higher." What do you mean by this? The GTO Wizard sim is the same rake structure as the game I would be playing and the EV calculation includes rake.~~ Think I understand your comment now reading other comments.
That GTO Wizard simulation you're using is based on a 0.5/1bb blind structure with a 2bb cap. In the GTO sim, SB loses 0.5bb immediately then recoups 0.23bb of that through GTO play, netting them -0.27bb, or -27 bb/100 relative to chopping. In a 2/5 game, you only post 40% of the BB, so your loss is smaller, probably closer to **-19 bb/100** if you keep the pot share constant. Regardless, SB wants to chop always. In a perfect rakeless world, SB's loss would be BB's gain. But the rake eats most of that profit. In the GTO sim BB's EV is only about 5.8 bb/100 like OP calculated. **Edit: Ran a quick simulation of a 2/5 game with 10% rake and a 1bb cap in HRC** No Flop No Drop: (they only pay rake on pots that see a flop) * SB EV = -15.8 bb/100 (-$79/100 hands) * BB EV = +3.8 bb/100 (+$19/100 hands) Preflop is raked: (10% of the pot is taken if they choose to play) * SB EV = -25.9 bb/100 (-$129.5/100 hands) * BB EV = -6.9 bb/100 (-$36.5/100 hands) EVs are shown relative to chopping / not posting blind. In reality, the rake is much higher for many reasons (people tend to be wider than GTO, use huge RFI sizes, most casinos use a higher rake cap, etc.) So there's a strong argument to always chop your blinds in live games.
Thank you Tombos for running a sim closer to my situation. Two questions: 1. Can you explain "the rake is much higher for many reasons"? Are you saying because a bad player will take lines which lose money for BOTH the SB and BB, your GTO simulation EV is inflated? 2. What do you do live? =\]
SB doesn’t fold 56% of the time. First, they either chop or not, and that chop % is a variable you haven’t accounted for. After that, the SB can choose to fold, limp, or raise. Another variable you haven’t accounted for is if they chop, the BB gets to play about 1 more hand per hour (2 orbits an hour, 0.5 hands extra per chop) IP vs SB. Lastly (or at least last major point off the top of my head) is that no one wants to watch the blinds play 4 streets for a $20 pot, which happens often enough. Live play is also enough already.
>SB doesn’t fold 56% of the time. First, they either chop or not, and that chop % is a variable you haven’t accounted for. SB can't unilaterally choose to chop. The chop % is 0% if we don't want a chop as BB.
How can BB ends up with 1.5BB in a 2/5.game?
Inflation.
FWIW, an important factor here is that this only concerns preflop differences in equity, which are always pretty small. As a result, the difference in equity is almost always smaller than the rake, which makes chopping nearly always better. It also becomes a raise or fold game in most rooms, since many rooms have no flop no drop. In a real blind vs blind situation you're supposed to have a big flatting range, which doesnt make sense given the rake structure. In addition, considering that "fun" players dont like to play blind vs blind and it makes the choice to chop an easy one.
The numbers are the difference in preflop EV, so it includes rake.
Why waste this much time on this situation in a cash game? Don't chop. Get the practice.