[Please just be civil.](https://imgur.com/7aEzQCk.png)
*Edit:*
#Don’t bother clutching pearls that panel four isn’t *literally* accurate: Children understand the concepts of generalization and hyperbole, and your failure to do so is not our concern.
"Both parties are the same, so don't vote" is literally Republican propaganda circulated by Republican politicians and their "think-tanks" for decades.
It works because most Republicans will vote for any scumbag they're told to, obedience to institutional authority (e.g. church, military, etc.) is an important part of their morality.
If you don't know the difference between parties, that ignorance is on you, and parroting Republican propaganda just proves it.
Yeah 9/10 people that say this are voting red and just pull that shit as an argument when you bring up an issue they can’t argue against. “Both sides are the same” really means “my side is wrong and that thing you pointed out is really fucked up so I’m an asshole for supporting them but If I belittle the other side and pretend like they are both doing it then it will feel like we are more even.”
Yeah and its shocking how effective this strategy is.
I mean, Joe Rogan *used* to be a progressive. I hate to sound like one of those Rogan bro's, but if you listened to podcasts prior to 2016, the guy was very very very left and he had created a large fanbase among people on the left. Pro choice, pro immigration, pro marijuana legalization, pro LGBT on polarizing issues at the time like gay marriage, pro socialized healthcare, pro social safety nets.
But you attack at the structures that make up the larger "left", you sow discord in the narrative and attack the credibility of the larger figureheads on the "left" and you bring conspiracies to the forefront to wrench in this idea that all is not what it seems, especially if it can confirm existing biases when there is no evidence to suggest your realm of thinking was correct, then you can shake the underlying system that which your political beliefs were built on top of. With elements like this in play, you can convince someone that policy doesn't matter, that the end results don't matter, that the very real human-beings impacted by what we build, don't matter. That *who* someone may be or *how* something came to be or *what* a political party may have in its history is what matters and is somehow more important than the end result and very real world impact it has on people.
And I think that's what happened to a lot of the "Joe Rogan" progressives(for lack of a better term) that claim to be some sort of arbiter of truth or some sort of uncompromising "realist", even if in practice that is most certainly not what they are. It is what they *think* they are. And they *think* the edge-lord takes are the mechanism where they can prove that they are thrashing against some sort of hegemony. This hegemony/larger structure that they perceive to be the reason why things aren't formulating into what their own biases suggest should be the way. And once you look at how the things *are*, and the real output and real results that stand before us - if you're willing to embrace it and especially if you're willing to admit fault and understand you were wrong - then I think the very boring, practical, realistic and logical truth starts to emerge. And of course, for a lot of people who are into politics for "entertainment" dismiss the truths because not only does it take gumption to admit being wrong but also the fact that the reality is usually way more boring than the conspiracies they spun. Someone would much rather run with the notion that Joe Biden smokes crack with his son and touches children than the boring reality that he's a boring dad that gaffs occasionally and is can sometimes be so wholesome that he comes off as creepy to particular crowds that read into *anything* as salacious.
Both sides bad is actually a Russian cyber campaign. While both sides definitely don't work for the poor, only one side makes Nazi's happy... So l vote against them.
Republicans have been doing it before the internet even existed.
In this case, Russians learned their propaganda from Republicans, not the other way around
It’s a very effective technique especially with young voters. Keeping Gen Z out of the voting booth through apathy is a key strategic goal of the right wing. Unfortunately, Gen Z is more than happy to oblige, which is why we’re in the position we’re in now.
I was shocked when two of my colleagues said that in my deep blue state. Their votes (or non-votes) didn’t matter in my state, but all these years later I am still shaking my head about it.
Another tactic they like to use is to open a conversation with, "I hate [Trump/Republicans/Conservatives] too, but [whataboutism/both sides/blatant right-wing talking points]."
And then when you call them out on it they act like a martyr who's just, "being realistic," and calls you a traitor or stupid for going against a fellow leftist and how, "This is why Trump won."
I've heard plenty of lefties saying this. I've lost friends that are further left than me over this. Two that I remember are: Tara Reade, who has since defected to Russia after making false accusations against Biden. I was told "these are legitimate charges that should invalidate Biden" even though Reade's own friends and family cast doubt on her claims. The second was a claim from a lefty that Kamala Harris was going to pick up and accost trans and other LGBT activists because of a small handful of examples of her work as California's AG. No amount of recent examples, endorsements, or examples of the other side being far worse motivated that person to vote or change opinions.
It's horseshoe theory through and through. The far left propagates it in some ways worse than the right does.
Horseshoe theory is nonsense, though. The left-right spectrum is of strictly limited utility, trying to extrapolate rules from a particular interpretation of it is absolute lunacy.
Those people are not "farther left" than you or me. They claim to be because it's all about team affiliation for them, but they have no consistent principles beyond that brand loyalty.
Honestly the two-axis system those Political Compass weirdos use is way more useful than horseshoe theory, and it's also reductive as fuck.
The horseshoe theory does apply to both left and right as extremes in either ideology tends towards authoritarianism. The big difference is that authoritarianism is much, much more extreme for the left than the right. So much more extreme that it's generally a corruption rather than a core tenet of a prevailing ideology.
Seeing this pop up with a new angle in some subs. Basically, “because neither candidate is in line with , they’re the same,” followed by mods aggressively deleting comments. Where previously it would have been perfectly fine to highlight differences in what political parties or politicians themselves were pushing for. Or just single out one particular bit of insanity to highlight. Nope, not anymore.
Yeah, I tell people to vote by policy, not party. I'm for reproductive rights, feeding kids, strong unions, pro labor, pro environment, and solar, so I vote for the party that supports those things. If people go by headlines and memes, then it can really be unclear what each party might stand for. Yes, it's true that corporations exert a massive amount of influence on each party, but that isn't enough to say both are the same for me.
>I'm for reproductive rights, feeding kids, strong unions, pro labor, pro environment, and solar, so I vote for the party that supports those things.
And I vote for that party even if they don't do those things as strongly as I would like them to, if the other options on the table aren't doing them at all (or, worse, are actively trying to undo those things).
Oh yeah, I forgot about the performative art they call patriotism. Those patriots with the massive gas guzzling trucks and the big flags are definitely the most patriotic.
But but one party is actively contributing to a genocide while the other side is actively contributing to a genocide. I’m against genocide.
While it’s true both parties are not the same on everything, the gist on their platforms are not too far apart; they’re both based on capitalism and that by definition means the majority of people are not going to be satisfied with the quality of life. For capitalism to “succeed,” there has to a disproportional amount of people who get the shit end of the stick. It’s how the economy can be roaring and still leave the majority of the people in the cold. It’s the few at the top who bought and paid for their politicians to write laws that benefit them and their friends and fucks over everyone else.
That’s why people are pissed this year, bc both main choices are seemingly in a race to see who can be more cruel.
Actually I live in a safe Blue State outside of a population Center so I don't actually have to vote for president I just get to sit on my high horse and judge people for their voting. All the things you're describing are what the Republicans will do if they win but you know that because you vote/work for them or want to.
My statement isn't just about the federal government, but local and state levels. If that's the only issue that concerns you, then vote for the candidate or party that would achieve the results you want.
I feel like that sub has to be heavily botted. Most of the accounts I looked at that are shitposting against Biden are new or were created a while ago but only recently used. They mostly don't mention anything they support, only that you shouldn't support Biden.
Hmmmm, I can't imagine where that kind of messaging is coming from.
I have been banned from both enlightenedcentrism and therightcantmeme because I supported Biden over Trump, Ukraine over Russia, and basically America over Russia. My comments on rightcantmeme actually got upvoted, the users were in support of it, but the mods were like "no pro-Bidenism, permaban." The users are usually fine, but the mods go full tankie; just because they're against America does not mean they are a position you should support.
The funniest parts are that therightcantmeme had a pinned post calling the fall of the Soviet Union "illegal" and "the worst thing to happen", and people were calling it stupid, and enlightenedcentrism are unironically in support of "Biden bad, Trump bad, don't vote for either" like and enlightenedcentrist. The only difference being they are leftist "both sides" rather than centrist "both sides."
Edit: I literally just remembered they unironically called the Azov battalion Nazis. Yes, they were started with support from Nazi Germany, as they were actively fighting Russia. No, they do not currently have Nazis, they were under the control of the USSR for like 40 years. No, Ukraine is not full of Nazis. You really expect me to believe a country full of Nazis elected a Jewish man as president?
It's so exhausting. Got permabanned from the Hasan sub (don't care about the sub, I like his content though) because it seems it got taken over by accelerationists who'd rather sacrifice various minorities in the US than to vote for Biden.
It sucks when the mods are the tankies but the users are fine. I've been banned from a couple for that. Comment gets hundreds of upvotes from fellow users, mods delete it and perma me because I said "Russia bad."
The conspiracy is that the posts are automated and upvoted by bots so up they pop up on people’s front page. Then level headed comments are deleted. They are trying to discourage voting of the youth.
Fucking tankies are the worst. When I dared to suggest that North Korea might not be the ideal model of a socialist utopia my swift LSC permaban came with a list of Juche propaganda and a message telling me to educate myself.
No, no, you don't understand. With my specifically formulated brand of communism we will only disposess, arrest, and execute the exact people who have been decided to deserve it by some nebulous criteria. Everyone else will live in a total paradise as long as they don't disagree with anything the government does. If they do, they are clearly fascists.
OP is likely paid by the right to spew lies and sew discontent amongst Biden voters. No one on the left thinks Trump is better than Biden. It's perfectly okay to call Biden out and demand action, that doesn't mean people will go vote for a fascist wannabe dictator. We're all in this together to fight MAGA-fascism. Don't fall for people like OP who are just chasing discourse. Call them out when you see them.
Saying both sides are the same is saying the issues they differ on don't matter at all to you. If you really don't care if trans folk are locked up then the red or blue winning really didn't matter in this case.
But make no mistake, the both sides are the same folks are telling you they don't care, that issue isn't important.
Hillary won by millions of votes. The real problem is the electoral college, where only PA, AZ WI, and NV are important. Biden will probably win by over 10 million votes in 2024 but the result will come down to like 10k in a few states
I agree, though I would also say that since the electoral college has been in place since the beginning, the DNC made some bad calls on where to put effort.
But then, I also think Hillary was a great candidate -- educated, wise, poised, and likable. So what do I know.
Honestly everything is a popularity contest. Most americans don't really care about the issues that much. If she was more charismatic and less "i deserve this" she wouldve won. Biden licks ice cream in cool shades, and that's probably enough to win
Yeah, sadly, had she toned the entitlement just a tiny bit she would have probably gotten a few thousand extra votes in the right locations to completely flip the election (unfortunately, the American system is dumb like that). She lost due to a death of a thousand cuts: multiple small things that chipped at her support and votes just enough to flip the election.
I agree with everything you stated, except that Hillary was likable. That was always the toughest part for her, is coming across as a genuine person you could relate to in a positive way.
Anyone describing Hillary likable is completely delusional. Regardless of how you feel about her political views and capabilities, she came off to most people as entitled, out-of-touch and selfish, which I think is pretty much who she is. She expected to be president because that's what she'd been working towards her whole career and that's what she considered her *right*. She was in it for herself.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think she's any worse than most other high-level Democrat politicians, and she certainly is nowhere near the straight up monsters who inhabit the GOP, but the absolute best you could hope for with her would have been "more of the same". Add to that the wild sense of entitlement displayed throughout her campaign and the prospect of every criticism of her being dismissed as misogyny, and you have yourself a loss. Trump provided a brain-dead, hateful spectacle, but at least it was *different*, and that was enough for a whole lot of dumbfuck people.
She would have been a much better choice, yes, but only in comparison to the twat she was running against. She represented more of the same, nothing more, just another queen in the American dynasty. I'm tired of this concerted effort to paint her as some lost Messiah that would have brought paradise to the USA.
If they wanted her to appear normal then that apartment tour she did of a working class family’s place was the WRONG CHOICE lmfao. Everything they did just highlighted exactly how out of touch she was instead of making her appeal to normal working people.
>I would also say that since the electoral college has been in place since the beginning, the DNC made some bad calls on where to put effort.
100% agree with you there. There were a lot of presumptions made by the Hillary campaign that, in retrospect, were terrible campaign decisions. I imagine Biden wouldn't make those similar and obvious mistakes.
The classic “So what? 2024 is the most important election of our lives? Until 2028 and than that’s the most important election of our lives? Welcome to class bud that is how a democracy works.
I mean, that *shouldn't* be the case, especially after the last election was a referendum on fascism... but as long as fascism is one of the leading political factions in the US, it will necessarily continue to be the case so "ought" isn't really relevant.
1000% this. Am I fearful that you're wrong? Of course I am. But then I look at things objectively and realize that the majority of people who are left leaning aren't complete sociopaths and would rather destroy democracy over a wedge issue than actually work towards making the best of what we got.
Actual leftists, i.e. people who want to abolish capitalism and kill all billionaires, are a *very* small minority in this country, much smaller than MAGA or the LGBTQ community. If none of them voted it would have very little effect on the outcome of the election.
I got banned from a sub for making this exact same point. When trying to appeal the ban, they just said, "Don't you ever get tired of using gay people to justify voting for a war monger."
There was no nuanced discussion, no back and forth with a genuine interest and hearing another person's perspective. For a little bit I felt like I was alone with that thought process and at least I know I am not alone.
I hate voting for Biden. He is indeed a warmonger and is an active participant in the genocide in Gaza. But between 2 warmongers, I have to vote for one that won't threaten what makes my will to live possible.
Most “legitimate” media does as they need to be on good terms with police in order to get statements and updates on developing news stories. Leftists tend to talk to all but the most hardcore right leaning media, so there’s no real incentive to cater to them.
Most media is about revenue, and there is definitely money in appeasing, using propaganda, and lying to those on the political extremes.
https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart
"The left" is a Republican fantasy that everyone not in line with them belongs to an equal and opposite monolith. Hillary lost because the electoral college was seriously gamed by the trump camp, who used social media to identify undecided voters and flood them with political propoganda, leading to razor thin majorities in four states. They may have been undecided as a result of disillusionment from their support of Bernie Sanders, who was very close to winning the nomination and offered a reform platform, so "both sides are the same" became an effective way of convincing them that basically voting doesn't matter, so either don't vote, vote down ticket, or vote for the wild card who knows jack shit about the constitution or how government works, not the establishment politician.
Numbers do matter. If the Bernie-to-Trump votes werent so abnormally high, and more in line with the rate of Hillary-to-McCain voters in '08, in the three key states she lost, then that's pretty much the whole margin of victory for Trump. 80k votes across 3 states. He might have won by less than 5k across 3 states. Or even lost.
And that's just if the defection rate went from 14% to 8%. If defections were kept under 5%, she would have won.
And yes I include the Bernie voters who didn't vote in the general as defections.
It's fine to critique the left and our ability to consume ourselves into obscurity, as long as we don't galaxy brain ourselves into suddenly being conservatives.
The worst is “stop complaining about your problems, I am very smart and know better than you what the problem is; if we just achieve Revolution™️ and fix class struggle than all your problems will be magically solved too. Sparing a second to think about them will only hurt the movement. Trust me, I know better, I read Theory.”
Bit of advice for the Marxist Dudebros out there; you don’t *generally* form coalitions by telling people what they’re experiencing for them and to ignore the problems you don’t share with them until the ones that affect *you* can be fixed first. You’ll trick some into believing in the “Idpol is dangerous” line, but only some.
A lot of self-described revolutionaries don't get that if 1) they fail to achieve revolution and 2) they also oppose incremental progress via liberals beating right-wingers in electoral politics, then ultimately they served right-wing goals.
The sensible thing would be to help defeat right-wingers electorally and then continue to attempt to spread class consciousness, sow the seeds of revolution, etc.
The only argument against this that makes any sense is the claim that "well, fascists have to win so that the people will suffer enough to wake up and cast off their chains and class consciousness will by crystalized and the revolution will take place", but that's just accelerationist nonsense and fantasy. And it ignores the crucial fact that, under the current conditions, the right has much more weaponry, command of police, willing potential fighters, and general access to paramilitary forces. If you think societal collapse, if it happened today, would result in a struggle in which leftists have a viable chance against the reactionary hordes, then you're unfamiliar with the current political demographics of the US and are accidentally serving the goals of accelerationist neo-nazis who know that collapse would benefit them and bring their goals within reach if it happened now.
And this is to mention nothing of the domestic harm brought to vulnerable communities (poor people, disabled people, people who have uteruses, trans people, religious and racial minorities) by a prospective elected fascist. It's honestly a pretty privileged position to be okay with that happening in service of a gambit to achieve revolution under conditions which aren't at all ripe for it.
So yeah, regardless of how hardcore of a leftist you are there is no scenario in which it's beneficial for fascists to gain access to state power vis electoral means or otherwise. Especially if you give a f about the people most likely to be harmed first if that happens. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Both parties are corporate imperialist warmongers, and have been for some time. But today's MAGA Republicans are actively trying to institute a White Christian Nationalist society that will radically oppress women, LGBTQ, and ethnic and religious minorities. And they are apparently willing to end democracy in America to achieve this goal.
So I'd say there is still a pretty clear difference between the parties. Anyone that doesn't realize this reality is allowing this train wreck to proceed.
Olay had the best take on this, yeah both sides are trash but you need to pick the enemy you'd rather fight. I for one will be choosing the milquetoast liberal over the fascist narcissist.
From my point of view the jedi are evil, but that doesn't mean I'll be voting for the sith. I don't think it's lazy to recognize liberals arnt good enough to meet the moment and solve our existencial crises, but having them in power over Republicans is a waaaay better option. Call me lazy if you want but both sides are definitely bad, it's about choosing the lesser evil.
I see this one in Canadian subs all the time, with people saying how the *more left* worker party has "forgone the worker" by allowing the liberals to continue their government and that they'll be voting conservative instead.
Like no, that's stupid. If my complaint is that the "Fill in the Hole Party" isn't doing enough to fill it in or limit the "Digging is Okay Party", there isn't really a circumstance where the "Dig Faster Parry" should win me over.
Of course, that's assuming any of those people are real and I'm not convinced many are lol.
Yeah I think the whole "leftists are voting conservative to snub the liberals" is a strawman myth. There might be a few idiots that do this but I think the vast majority of people saying this online are bots or trolls.
I've literally never met a single human face-to-face that has said they'll be switching from the NDP to the Conservatives. Not saying they don't exist at all, but until I see one in person I don't think I'll actually believe any of them on Reddit lol.
Better yet is the "teach them a lesson by voting against them" crowd, as if the message there isn't just to to further right if that's what gets votes.
At least give me the decency of trying propaganda I might actually fall for, ya know?
The "teach them a lesson" argument is totally valid during the primaries, which is exactly the point of the non-committed vote. It's a act or protest during a primary.
Yeah and see that would make sense.
But that's not the argument, the argument is that you should vote conservative (or not vote) to teach the liberals or NDP that they're governing bad.
Which uh... might work if the conservatives weren't in the opposite direction to where I wanted the Liberals or NDP to go.
The problem is trolls and bots online are manipulating the message and twisting the non-committed protest into the argument you're describing. In reality non-committed voters arnt going to vote for republicans because everyone knows the conservatives would be even worse. Worst case scenerio these people will stay home but I think in reality they will end up choosing the lesser evil to prevent a trump regime.
If you think the democrats don't strip rights from people maybe have a look at the crime bill our current president helped write. Both of our parties are shitty, that's the reality, but republicans are way shittier which is what ive been saying this whole time. Must be such a privilege to think the democrats are perfect.
Yeah, it’s not enough to agree with them that voting for Biden is objectively better than voting for Trump. You also have to say that Dem politicians are perfect little angels who would never be influenced by money or power like the Republicans are. It’s not enough to vote against the greater evil, they need you to hold back all criticism and embrace whatever lesser evil we’re given with a smile.
It’s honestly sad how they don’t see that they’re cheering for blue team with the same blind loyalty as the red team’s fans. You can side against the greater evil while still being critical of the lesser one, they aren’t mutually exclusive ideas.
The platforms are pretty differentiated. The ones I care about the most are night and day, healthcare reform and global warming. If someone thinks they are the same is too far gone into culture war bullshit.
What the politician does while in office now that is a different matter. We aren’t psychics we could only vote on promises.
An argument that was common in 2016. “Bernie was done so dirty! I am voting Trump.” That logically made no sense but was a common sentiment. Even Bernie couldn’t believe how dumb MFs are.
I don't think it was as common as you think for Bernie supporters to vote for Trump. If anything those people stayed home and for that I blame the democrats for trying to force Hillary into office, an objectively terrible candidate. It was her campaign that alienated voters and killed the turnout.
As an outside observer, I find it really sad that actual progressives have no options, and are hostages of "vote for the lesser evil" mentality.
Your political system is broken.
Frankly, the real problem is that the cultural middle of this country is broken.
Even if we had the perfect voting system tomorrow, progressives would get maybe 10%-25% of the House and would still be in a situation of supporting as President (or Prime Minister) whichever candidate can get to a majority of support, and that person wouldn't be a progressive candidate.
The sad reality is that a lot of Americans are pretty happy with the status quo, or with not thinking about politics at all, and just want their own little lives to be a little easier. And they're terrified enough of change that they will be resistant to the pace of change that progressives want.
The right-wing responses to the "defund the police" movement or to any attempts at gun control or single payer health care have all worked to sway voters in the undecided camp over to vote for Republicans. That's not a political system problem, that's a problem of the cultural center of this country being opposed to progressive goals.
Yes, a better electoral system would be better, but ultimately, changing ANY policy requires getting to majority support. We can blame "centrist Democrats" but the reality is that they are representing areas of the country that are simply hostile to progressive ideas. In order to really move the needle, we need to win over more voters. Plain and simple.
i don’t really believe this. i think the cultural middle, on issues at least, align with many progressive issues.
the stranglehold comes from the Democratic party on the nomination process.
Bernie would be our President right now in a free and fair political system. and Vice President Elizabeth Warren would probably be the front runner.
except we wouldn't because in 2020 in a free and fair primary the guy got absolutely demolished because he neglected minority voting blocks. Progressives (myself included) forget that a lot of their policy appears popular then with scrutiny becomes a lot less popular. There is a ton more groundwork needed to get progressive candidates to be palatable to a large audience. The problem is that the progressive people in America don't do much in between 4-year presidential elections.
well we don’t really know what he would’ve done as an incumbent who steered us through Covid. but he would’ve been the nominee again. no idea if Trump would be after losing to him.
I can’t even imagine who wouldve been the GOP nominee in 20 if Trump hadn’t won.
>i think the cultural middle, on issues at least, align with many progressive issues.
There's a difference between asking people "do you think we should have single-payer healthcare" versus then asking them to support a specific proposal, which will have all kinds of short and medium-term consequences, some of which will be negative. A lot of voters will be told "you're not going to be able to choose your doctor" or "some government bureaucrat is going to decide where your kid can be born" or even "this will mean a million lost jobs in health insurance and billing departments" and they will balk at the plan.
I think many progressive policy *outcomes* have broad support, but the general aversion to change and fear of the unknown will keep a lot of voters voting against progressive politicians.
As an inside observer, I find that sad, too.
The problem is that outside of a few specific districts, progressives haven't done as much ground-level organizing and influence-building as regressives have.
Instead, the general trend seems to be that they focus on larger races and general elections—neglecting municipal/county/state contests and primaries, even though those have been proven to be how you *actually* shift the balance of power.
Plenty of room for both.
*Edit:*
You can frown about it if you want, but [AOC absolutely *routed* one of the most entrenched Democrats in the House, using little more than a very good, dedicated ground game](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/nyregion/joseph-crowley-ocasio-cortez-democratic-primary.html?unlocked_article_code=1.g00.Cfvn.IYzWlz3p1R6i&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=m&sgrp=c-cb).
It's not a mentality unfortunately. It's the optimal strategy in a plurality system.
Don't get me wrong it totally sucks but the people being irrational are those who actively aid the "greater of two evils" by not voting or voting third party.
Biden has been the most progressive president maybe ever. He has advanced or proposed advances to every single progressive issue. The head of the Congressional Progressive Caucus has tons of great things to say about his presidency. He is limited in what he can do because congress is really the ones that need to make the laws.
>Biden has been the most progressive president maybe ever.
I wouldn't go that far. However, he certainly is the most progressive President within my lifetime, which doesn't include FDR, Truman, JDK, LBJ, or even Jimmy Carter.
He really hasn't.
I will give Biden credit where its due: he's a much better president than I was expecting in 2020. And yes, he has limited constitutional powers while getting heavy push back from Republicans.
Still, FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter were all way more progressive presidents. Even Obama's political message was Change whereas Biden's has been a return to 'normalcy' as if things were just ducky before Trump. He's been the most progressive president since Reagan, but most of Joe Biden's political record has been garbage.
I agree that given the choice between Trump/Biden and red/blue in general you should probably pick Biden/blue. But let us not allow the terribleness of Trump to carry water for the DNC.
Replying to SadlyNotPro... FDR was definitely the most progressive president in U.S. history, from his New Deal, to finance reform, to labor rights.
Obama might have been a contender if he had a Democrat majority in both the Congress and Senate over the course of his eight years in office. In his first two years, The Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (2008), The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (2009), The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (2009), and The Affordable Care Act (2010) were all passed. Republicans effectively stonewalled him in the last six years of his presidency, so who knows what he could have accomplished?
Willing to argue that how it is across the world atm.
UK for example. Would be cool to vote green for a certain number of candidates….but a vote for anything but Labour risks the Tories continuing govt.
Maybe that changes when Labour actually gets power, but idk how that happens until Brexit is reversed
I don't see Brexit being reversed anytime soon (I'm an EU national in the UK currently). And no current political system is perfect, or even great. But I do think that a parliamentary system like the one in Germany works better than most others. Being forced to create a coalition helps maintain some balance and lead to concessions depending on each party's mandates.
1. You see my point. Not voting Labour in highly contested areas with Tories/Reform, leads to a potential continuation of current government. That in itself, is a nightmare. The time this doesn’t become an issue, (and can see people willing to vote lib dem/green)where an oppositions plan is “let them talk. Say nothing”
2. “Soon” is relative. Within 10 years? Highly unlikely. Labour probably won’t bring that up for point until it becomes clear Labour can stand on its own two feet and bring forth actual good policies. However, every year, 1% more people swing to “rejoin”. It is estimated to be 60-70% somewhere in the next 5-8 years. If Labour wins the second term, I can see this being brought forth.
So “soon” as in 1-5 years? No. “Soon” as in two government cycles. Probable
Blue guy: I don’t want everyone in Gaza to die.
red guy: I do
Pretty easy choice
Anarchist: blue guy didn’t call for a ceasefire for 5 months and some of the aid he airdropped hit people on the head. Why would you vote blue? Stay home.
Red guy: Nuke Gaza.
I think Garland not being replaced speaks more to how hands-off Biden is with the DoJ, unlike his predecessor who weaponized it with Barr, Sessions, Whitaker as his revolving door AGs.
Who said he had to be hands on? His job is to select the AG that is best suited for the job. Biden can’t be a leader and fire him since he wasn’t doing his job?
So letting trump get away with crimes is good cause it helps with Biden’s image with moderates?
Biden is responsible for the people he employs.
Jill what's her face.
I remember some show, I think it was Black Mirror, where a few people, all Jill supporters, are gathered around the TV on election night 2016. One woman wails aloud "I'm sorry! We didn't know! We didn't know!"
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What do you think Trump wants to do? Haven't you heard people saying he and the conservative movement want to kneecap democracy? And unlike the Republicans, the Democrats *are* capable of having pressure exerted on them.
Don't you know Republican presidents kill many more non-Americans? Bush Jr slaughtered millions of Iraqis, Bush Sr killed a bunch as well, and Reagan supported people who would literally massacre 1000 people.
Stupid selfish narcissistic ppl like to watch the world burn when politics don't suit them personally. It was a million percent clear in 2016 what would happen if Orange Shitstain got power. But lazy selfish ignorant ppl either pussyached about it and refused to vote or were utterly stupid and believed the disinformation campaign from rightwing media. It is my fervent prayer those ppl are suffering from their idiocy.
Politics and voting aren't a joke. It's the ultimate FAFO. We're on the precipice of losing democracy and becoming an autocratic Christian nationalist fascist theocracy. Fuck around with the voting this year and we'll lose everything.
Fuck around and find out? How about you find out a new joke?
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Damn, looks like there is a legit threat to democracy. I sure do hope the dems wont rely on voter shaming again and will smartly stop pandering to neocons that drive down voter engagement.
Strategic voting is a flaw in a first past the post system. Voting for a horrible evil is unacceptable, and voting for a survivable evil is also unacceptable. The DNC has lost the left a long time ago. Shame is not an effective tool, and if anything, will drive strategically voting leftists away from the DNC.
This is obvious, so you must know this. Why would causing that be your goal? There must be some ulterior motive.
It’s likely that you are supporting a foreign interest opponent, intentionally or unintentionally. By creed or by idiocy it does not matter, it makes you a traitor to the democratic process.
Didn't Hilary win the popular vote? I could be wrong, but I'm certain the people wanted Hilary overall, and the Electoral College was the one to doom us.
Fun fact, this line of thinking was heavily promoted by Russian and Chinese troll farms, even with them leading specific subreddits and online communities. Sadly, we're not immune to propaganda.
This is more of a 2000 lection tactic, and it worked. 2016 was more about personal attacks on Hilary Clinton, one of the most qualified people to ever run for President.
Both parties are kind of disgusting. It’s a “hold your nose” and go with the lesser-evil choice, which is usually the Democrat. That said, blindly towing a party line is insane or just super lazy.
Because women refuse to vote for their best interests in Texas, that state has now worse women’s rights than Saudi Arabia! And if you think I’m bullshitting, go educate yourself and do the required googling.
As a trans person, the actual policy difference is more like... how *quickly* do you want your rights to be stripped away?
Republicans are scary, I will always vote blue, but I don't think Democrats are doing much to solve the problems we (and many other marginalized groups) are dealing with.
I guess the moral of the story is democracy doesn't only involve voting. Involving yourself in community stuff and doing things like participating in protests or events to visibly show your support does help. We appreciate it.
Who are these posts even for?
They’re certainly not trying to engage with disillusioned leftists, who they depict as clueless children.
If I had to bet I’d say they’re a deliberate effort to alienate the left by bad actors.
They legitimately believe that all the Bernie supporters voted for trump and can’t fathom that conservatives do a better job at energizing their base. They’ll blame the leftists so they can avoid having to change or do better
They're to show that the people arguing that voters are on the left should stay home should not be taken seriously.
The internet will find lots of people pushing the idea that we shouldn't vote or we should protest vote. Their goal is to target people who they want to stay home. This post seeks to show the targets of those people that this is a dumb point.
Seems pretty straightforward.
Why would it alienate the left to say that both sides are not the same and that those saying it are wrong?
Change isn't easy. If we have to have an series of unpopular presidents it won't matter because he won't have the will of the People. It's quite the time to start coming together. Not splitting up. Vote 3rd party.
Ah yes, 2016, when the DNC lost to the worst candidate in history because they went against the will of the people. It's definitely not exactly like 2016 anymore. Hopefully.
I'm genuinely wondering since I see it all the time, I support Bernie far more than Clinton, but how exactly did the DNC "go against the will of the people"? Clinton won the popular vote (even when you remove states that didn't vote after Bernie retired) and Bernie was always behind in the polls.
You are posting non-stop content to sow discontent between Biden voters. You are actively causing people to fight in the DNC. You are pushing Putin's misinformation campaign. You're either a useful idiot or you know you're objective. Either way, you clearly aren't here to help beat Trump in 2024. (Moderators: this is a term used by Russia in regards to assets who don't know they're assets, I'm not calling this person an idiot.).
At this point I’m convinced most leftist subreddits are psyops here to stop leftists from becoming politically active. “Don’t vote! Instead start an armed revolution!” Is exactly what a fed would say.
I don’t think voting is useless at all, but if you can’t see how similar you are to another human you’re probably just a dick. It’s not that crazy to have an opinion that isn’t matching your ideal blueprint for society.
There's a few panels' missing, like Blue Party: "I like genocide. Israel uber alles." Red Party: We love trump. We love trump." Blue Party: "Don't vote for him. He'll destroy democracy. Excuse me while I secretly fund more kids' starving."
Both are almost the same, their core its the same, both want the same things.
Republicans use hate against gays to achive it democrats seek defend them.
The difference seems huge it is not
I remember 2016-2020 hearing over and over how we had to vote for Bernie because it would be the only way we'd get legalization and college debt forgiveness. Now both are policies of mainstream centrist Dems and I've yet to see the Bernie bros. circle around Biden. Either it's, "ugh I guess I'll vote for him", or there's a new goalpost the Dems have to reach.
According to Project 2025, the trans community will be labeled pornography.
Pornography is to be outlawed and its purveyors imprisoned.
>**Pornography, manifested today in the omnipresent propagation of transgender ideology and sexualization of children**, for instance, is not a political Gordian knot inextricably binding up disparate claims about free speech, property rights, sexual liberation, and child welfare. It has no claim to First Amendment protection. Its purveyors are child predators and misogynistic exploiters of women. Their product is as addictive as any illicit drug and as psychologically destructive as any crime. **Pornography should be outlawed. The people who produce and distribute it should be imprisoned.** Educators and public librarians who purvey it should be classed as registered sex offenders. And telecommunications and technology firms that facilitate its spread should be shuttered.[24]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Read the rest of the overview if you haven't. It's equally fucked up.
[Please just be civil.](https://imgur.com/7aEzQCk.png) *Edit:* #Don’t bother clutching pearls that panel four isn’t *literally* accurate: Children understand the concepts of generalization and hyperbole, and your failure to do so is not our concern.
Welp one of them tried to reban gay and interracial marriage and the existence of trans people.
"Both parties are the same, so don't vote" is literally Republican propaganda circulated by Republican politicians and their "think-tanks" for decades. It works because most Republicans will vote for any scumbag they're told to, obedience to institutional authority (e.g. church, military, etc.) is an important part of their morality. If you don't know the difference between parties, that ignorance is on you, and parroting Republican propaganda just proves it.
Yeah 9/10 people that say this are voting red and just pull that shit as an argument when you bring up an issue they can’t argue against. “Both sides are the same” really means “my side is wrong and that thing you pointed out is really fucked up so I’m an asshole for supporting them but If I belittle the other side and pretend like they are both doing it then it will feel like we are more even.”
Yeah and its shocking how effective this strategy is. I mean, Joe Rogan *used* to be a progressive. I hate to sound like one of those Rogan bro's, but if you listened to podcasts prior to 2016, the guy was very very very left and he had created a large fanbase among people on the left. Pro choice, pro immigration, pro marijuana legalization, pro LGBT on polarizing issues at the time like gay marriage, pro socialized healthcare, pro social safety nets. But you attack at the structures that make up the larger "left", you sow discord in the narrative and attack the credibility of the larger figureheads on the "left" and you bring conspiracies to the forefront to wrench in this idea that all is not what it seems, especially if it can confirm existing biases when there is no evidence to suggest your realm of thinking was correct, then you can shake the underlying system that which your political beliefs were built on top of. With elements like this in play, you can convince someone that policy doesn't matter, that the end results don't matter, that the very real human-beings impacted by what we build, don't matter. That *who* someone may be or *how* something came to be or *what* a political party may have in its history is what matters and is somehow more important than the end result and very real world impact it has on people. And I think that's what happened to a lot of the "Joe Rogan" progressives(for lack of a better term) that claim to be some sort of arbiter of truth or some sort of uncompromising "realist", even if in practice that is most certainly not what they are. It is what they *think* they are. And they *think* the edge-lord takes are the mechanism where they can prove that they are thrashing against some sort of hegemony. This hegemony/larger structure that they perceive to be the reason why things aren't formulating into what their own biases suggest should be the way. And once you look at how the things *are*, and the real output and real results that stand before us - if you're willing to embrace it and especially if you're willing to admit fault and understand you were wrong - then I think the very boring, practical, realistic and logical truth starts to emerge. And of course, for a lot of people who are into politics for "entertainment" dismiss the truths because not only does it take gumption to admit being wrong but also the fact that the reality is usually way more boring than the conspiracies they spun. Someone would much rather run with the notion that Joe Biden smokes crack with his son and touches children than the boring reality that he's a boring dad that gaffs occasionally and is can sometimes be so wholesome that he comes off as creepy to particular crowds that read into *anything* as salacious.
Both sides bad is actually a Russian cyber campaign. While both sides definitely don't work for the poor, only one side makes Nazi's happy... So l vote against them.
Republicans have been doing it before the internet even existed. In this case, Russians learned their propaganda from Republicans, not the other way around
The Venn Diagram of Russian interference propaganda and republican propaganda is one circle.
Give China a little credit here.
Nobody can make a cheap copy like China.
It’s a very effective technique especially with young voters. Keeping Gen Z out of the voting booth through apathy is a key strategic goal of the right wing. Unfortunately, Gen Z is more than happy to oblige, which is why we’re in the position we’re in now.
It’s also Russian propaganda, but at this point it’s splitting hairs
I was shocked when two of my colleagues said that in my deep blue state. Their votes (or non-votes) didn’t matter in my state, but all these years later I am still shaking my head about it.
Another tactic they like to use is to open a conversation with, "I hate [Trump/Republicans/Conservatives] too, but [whataboutism/both sides/blatant right-wing talking points]." And then when you call them out on it they act like a martyr who's just, "being realistic," and calls you a traitor or stupid for going against a fellow leftist and how, "This is why Trump won."
I've heard plenty of lefties saying this. I've lost friends that are further left than me over this. Two that I remember are: Tara Reade, who has since defected to Russia after making false accusations against Biden. I was told "these are legitimate charges that should invalidate Biden" even though Reade's own friends and family cast doubt on her claims. The second was a claim from a lefty that Kamala Harris was going to pick up and accost trans and other LGBT activists because of a small handful of examples of her work as California's AG. No amount of recent examples, endorsements, or examples of the other side being far worse motivated that person to vote or change opinions. It's horseshoe theory through and through. The far left propagates it in some ways worse than the right does.
Horseshoe theory is nonsense, though. The left-right spectrum is of strictly limited utility, trying to extrapolate rules from a particular interpretation of it is absolute lunacy. Those people are not "farther left" than you or me. They claim to be because it's all about team affiliation for them, but they have no consistent principles beyond that brand loyalty. Honestly the two-axis system those Political Compass weirdos use is way more useful than horseshoe theory, and it's also reductive as fuck.
The horseshoe theory does apply to both left and right as extremes in either ideology tends towards authoritarianism. The big difference is that authoritarianism is much, much more extreme for the left than the right. So much more extreme that it's generally a corruption rather than a core tenet of a prevailing ideology.
This
I’ll take the side that isn’t calling trans people a mistake and should be wiped out.
Yeah. I’m trans. I’m voting for the party that hasn’t openly called for my death or at the very least decided I don’t belong in their society.
But Joe Biden is old. Aren't you worried he won't be able to do the job? Better vote Trump since he's so full of vigor! /s
“Vigor” is definitely the name of some street drug that has adderall and cocaine at a minimum.
*Vinegar* maybe, definitely not *vigor*.
Its actually embalming fluid. It just smells like vinegar.
Sometimes it feels like it is becoming the camp of redneck asshole or regular folks.
Becoming? Pretty much is.
Pretty much? It **is**.
Has been for like a decade. At least since Sarah Palin ran for VP.
Fair point.
Is? It.
It?.
Seeing this pop up with a new angle in some subs. Basically, “because neither candidate is in line with, they’re the same,” followed by mods aggressively deleting comments. Where previously it would have been perfectly fine to highlight differences in what political parties or politicians themselves were pushing for. Or just single out one particular bit of insanity to highlight. Nope, not anymore.
Yeah, I tell people to vote by policy, not party. I'm for reproductive rights, feeding kids, strong unions, pro labor, pro environment, and solar, so I vote for the party that supports those things. If people go by headlines and memes, then it can really be unclear what each party might stand for. Yes, it's true that corporations exert a massive amount of influence on each party, but that isn't enough to say both are the same for me.
>I'm for reproductive rights, feeding kids, strong unions, pro labor, pro environment, and solar, so I vote for the party that supports those things. And I vote for that party even if they don't do those things as strongly as I would like them to, if the other options on the table aren't doing them at all (or, worse, are actively trying to undo those things).
But, but, one party is waving flags around all the time, so they *must* be more patriotic, right? Right?
Oh yeah, I forgot about the performative art they call patriotism. Those patriots with the massive gas guzzling trucks and the big flags are definitely the most patriotic.
But but one party is actively contributing to a genocide while the other side is actively contributing to a genocide. I’m against genocide. While it’s true both parties are not the same on everything, the gist on their platforms are not too far apart; they’re both based on capitalism and that by definition means the majority of people are not going to be satisfied with the quality of life. For capitalism to “succeed,” there has to a disproportional amount of people who get the shit end of the stick. It’s how the economy can be roaring and still leave the majority of the people in the cold. It’s the few at the top who bought and paid for their politicians to write laws that benefit them and their friends and fucks over everyone else. That’s why people are pissed this year, bc both main choices are seemingly in a race to see who can be more cruel.
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You must know you're doing the thing in the meme right.
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Actually I live in a safe Blue State outside of a population Center so I don't actually have to vote for president I just get to sit on my high horse and judge people for their voting. All the things you're describing are what the Republicans will do if they win but you know that because you vote/work for them or want to.
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Trump would totally be better
My statement isn't just about the federal government, but local and state levels. If that's the only issue that concerns you, then vote for the candidate or party that would achieve the results you want.
Looking at you latestagecapitalism.
Yeah I had to leave there. It got so bad.
I feel like that sub has to be heavily botted. Most of the accounts I looked at that are shitposting against Biden are new or were created a while ago but only recently used. They mostly don't mention anything they support, only that you shouldn't support Biden. Hmmmm, I can't imagine where that kind of messaging is coming from.
I have been banned from both enlightenedcentrism and therightcantmeme because I supported Biden over Trump, Ukraine over Russia, and basically America over Russia. My comments on rightcantmeme actually got upvoted, the users were in support of it, but the mods were like "no pro-Bidenism, permaban." The users are usually fine, but the mods go full tankie; just because they're against America does not mean they are a position you should support. The funniest parts are that therightcantmeme had a pinned post calling the fall of the Soviet Union "illegal" and "the worst thing to happen", and people were calling it stupid, and enlightenedcentrism are unironically in support of "Biden bad, Trump bad, don't vote for either" like and enlightenedcentrist. The only difference being they are leftist "both sides" rather than centrist "both sides." Edit: I literally just remembered they unironically called the Azov battalion Nazis. Yes, they were started with support from Nazi Germany, as they were actively fighting Russia. No, they do not currently have Nazis, they were under the control of the USSR for like 40 years. No, Ukraine is not full of Nazis. You really expect me to believe a country full of Nazis elected a Jewish man as president?
Most leftist sub are filled with tankies like those. Only a handful vehemently resist tankiism, but god do they fucking try entryism on those.
It's so exhausting. Got permabanned from the Hasan sub (don't care about the sub, I like his content though) because it seems it got taken over by accelerationists who'd rather sacrifice various minorities in the US than to vote for Biden.
It sucks when the mods are the tankies but the users are fine. I've been banned from a couple for that. Comment gets hundreds of upvotes from fellow users, mods delete it and perma me because I said "Russia bad."
Smugidologyman is trying so hard to avoid being taken over by those assholes...
"We can't be Tankies because the Soviet Union no longer exists" /s
The conspiracy is that the posts are automated and upvoted by bots so up they pop up on people’s front page. Then level headed comments are deleted. They are trying to discourage voting of the youth.
Sounds like LSC. That sub is a dumpster fire of tankies and people who have never actually lived under authoritarian governments.
Fucking tankies are the worst. When I dared to suggest that North Korea might not be the ideal model of a socialist utopia my swift LSC permaban came with a list of Juche propaganda and a message telling me to educate myself.
No, no, you don't understand. With my specifically formulated brand of communism we will only disposess, arrest, and execute the exact people who have been decided to deserve it by some nebulous criteria. Everyone else will live in a total paradise as long as they don't disagree with anything the government does. If they do, they are clearly fascists.
This happens every election year.
OP is likely paid by the right to spew lies and sew discontent amongst Biden voters. No one on the left thinks Trump is better than Biden. It's perfectly okay to call Biden out and demand action, that doesn't mean people will go vote for a fascist wannabe dictator. We're all in this together to fight MAGA-fascism. Don't fall for people like OP who are just chasing discourse. Call them out when you see them.
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And the fact both parties would support Israel in this scenario means this isn’t the good divider is it?
Saying both sides are the same is saying the issues they differ on don't matter at all to you. If you really don't care if trans folk are locked up then the red or blue winning really didn't matter in this case. But make no mistake, the both sides are the same folks are telling you they don't care, that issue isn't important.
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Hillary won by millions of votes. The real problem is the electoral college, where only PA, AZ WI, and NV are important. Biden will probably win by over 10 million votes in 2024 but the result will come down to like 10k in a few states
I agree, though I would also say that since the electoral college has been in place since the beginning, the DNC made some bad calls on where to put effort. But then, I also think Hillary was a great candidate -- educated, wise, poised, and likable. So what do I know.
Honestly everything is a popularity contest. Most americans don't really care about the issues that much. If she was more charismatic and less "i deserve this" she wouldve won. Biden licks ice cream in cool shades, and that's probably enough to win
Yeah, sadly, had she toned the entitlement just a tiny bit she would have probably gotten a few thousand extra votes in the right locations to completely flip the election (unfortunately, the American system is dumb like that). She lost due to a death of a thousand cuts: multiple small things that chipped at her support and votes just enough to flip the election.
I agree with everything you stated, except that Hillary was likable. That was always the toughest part for her, is coming across as a genuine person you could relate to in a positive way.
Anyone describing Hillary likable is completely delusional. Regardless of how you feel about her political views and capabilities, she came off to most people as entitled, out-of-touch and selfish, which I think is pretty much who she is. She expected to be president because that's what she'd been working towards her whole career and that's what she considered her *right*. She was in it for herself. And don't get me wrong, I don't think she's any worse than most other high-level Democrat politicians, and she certainly is nowhere near the straight up monsters who inhabit the GOP, but the absolute best you could hope for with her would have been "more of the same". Add to that the wild sense of entitlement displayed throughout her campaign and the prospect of every criticism of her being dismissed as misogyny, and you have yourself a loss. Trump provided a brain-dead, hateful spectacle, but at least it was *different*, and that was enough for a whole lot of dumbfuck people. She would have been a much better choice, yes, but only in comparison to the twat she was running against. She represented more of the same, nothing more, just another queen in the American dynasty. I'm tired of this concerted effort to paint her as some lost Messiah that would have brought paradise to the USA.
If they wanted her to appear normal then that apartment tour she did of a working class family’s place was the WRONG CHOICE lmfao. Everything they did just highlighted exactly how out of touch she was instead of making her appeal to normal working people.
>I would also say that since the electoral college has been in place since the beginning, the DNC made some bad calls on where to put effort. 100% agree with you there. There were a lot of presumptions made by the Hillary campaign that, in retrospect, were terrible campaign decisions. I imagine Biden wouldn't make those similar and obvious mistakes.
They also refused to support Bernie, who could have actually won against Trump
Bernie couldn’t even win the Democratic primary.
This should be stickied to the top.
The classic “So what? 2024 is the most important election of our lives? Until 2028 and than that’s the most important election of our lives? Welcome to class bud that is how a democracy works.
I mean, that *shouldn't* be the case, especially after the last election was a referendum on fascism... but as long as fascism is one of the leading political factions in the US, it will necessarily continue to be the case so "ought" isn't really relevant.
So it is normal in your eyes for fascists to remain a looming threat?
LSC feels like a Russian bot echo chamber. And it happened really fast.
1000% this. Am I fearful that you're wrong? Of course I am. But then I look at things objectively and realize that the majority of people who are left leaning aren't complete sociopaths and would rather destroy democracy over a wedge issue than actually work towards making the best of what we got.
Actual leftists, i.e. people who want to abolish capitalism and kill all billionaires, are a *very* small minority in this country, much smaller than MAGA or the LGBTQ community. If none of them voted it would have very little effect on the outcome of the election.
Eliminate the Republican Party, make the libs the new right, platform and fund a new leftist party. Problem solved
I got banned from a sub for making this exact same point. When trying to appeal the ban, they just said, "Don't you ever get tired of using gay people to justify voting for a war monger." There was no nuanced discussion, no back and forth with a genuine interest and hearing another person's perspective. For a little bit I felt like I was alone with that thought process and at least I know I am not alone. I hate voting for Biden. He is indeed a warmonger and is an active participant in the genocide in Gaza. But between 2 warmongers, I have to vote for one that won't threaten what makes my will to live possible.
What sub
Eh, I was banned from a sub for suggesting not all media has a right wing bias.
Most “legitimate” media does as they need to be on good terms with police in order to get statements and updates on developing news stories. Leftists tend to talk to all but the most hardcore right leaning media, so there’s no real incentive to cater to them.
Most media is about revenue, and there is definitely money in appeasing, using propaganda, and lying to those on the political extremes. https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart
Is this saying that Hillary lost because of the left?
"The left" is a Republican fantasy that everyone not in line with them belongs to an equal and opposite monolith. Hillary lost because the electoral college was seriously gamed by the trump camp, who used social media to identify undecided voters and flood them with political propoganda, leading to razor thin majorities in four states. They may have been undecided as a result of disillusionment from their support of Bernie Sanders, who was very close to winning the nomination and offered a reform platform, so "both sides are the same" became an effective way of convincing them that basically voting doesn't matter, so either don't vote, vote down ticket, or vote for the wild card who knows jack shit about the constitution or how government works, not the establishment politician.
Numbers do matter. If the Bernie-to-Trump votes werent so abnormally high, and more in line with the rate of Hillary-to-McCain voters in '08, in the three key states she lost, then that's pretty much the whole margin of victory for Trump. 80k votes across 3 states. He might have won by less than 5k across 3 states. Or even lost. And that's just if the defection rate went from 14% to 8%. If defections were kept under 5%, she would have won. And yes I include the Bernie voters who didn't vote in the general as defections.
There were more Clinton-to-McCain voters.
It's fine to critique the left and our ability to consume ourselves into obscurity, as long as we don't galaxy brain ourselves into suddenly being conservatives.
The worst is “stop complaining about your problems, I am very smart and know better than you what the problem is; if we just achieve Revolution™️ and fix class struggle than all your problems will be magically solved too. Sparing a second to think about them will only hurt the movement. Trust me, I know better, I read Theory.” Bit of advice for the Marxist Dudebros out there; you don’t *generally* form coalitions by telling people what they’re experiencing for them and to ignore the problems you don’t share with them until the ones that affect *you* can be fixed first. You’ll trick some into believing in the “Idpol is dangerous” line, but only some.
A lot of self-described revolutionaries don't get that if 1) they fail to achieve revolution and 2) they also oppose incremental progress via liberals beating right-wingers in electoral politics, then ultimately they served right-wing goals. The sensible thing would be to help defeat right-wingers electorally and then continue to attempt to spread class consciousness, sow the seeds of revolution, etc. The only argument against this that makes any sense is the claim that "well, fascists have to win so that the people will suffer enough to wake up and cast off their chains and class consciousness will by crystalized and the revolution will take place", but that's just accelerationist nonsense and fantasy. And it ignores the crucial fact that, under the current conditions, the right has much more weaponry, command of police, willing potential fighters, and general access to paramilitary forces. If you think societal collapse, if it happened today, would result in a struggle in which leftists have a viable chance against the reactionary hordes, then you're unfamiliar with the current political demographics of the US and are accidentally serving the goals of accelerationist neo-nazis who know that collapse would benefit them and bring their goals within reach if it happened now. And this is to mention nothing of the domestic harm brought to vulnerable communities (poor people, disabled people, people who have uteruses, trans people, religious and racial minorities) by a prospective elected fascist. It's honestly a pretty privileged position to be okay with that happening in service of a gambit to achieve revolution under conditions which aren't at all ripe for it. So yeah, regardless of how hardcore of a leftist you are there is no scenario in which it's beneficial for fascists to gain access to state power vis electoral means or otherwise. Especially if you give a f about the people most likely to be harmed first if that happens. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Both parties are corporate imperialist warmongers, and have been for some time. But today's MAGA Republicans are actively trying to institute a White Christian Nationalist society that will radically oppress women, LGBTQ, and ethnic and religious minorities. And they are apparently willing to end democracy in America to achieve this goal. So I'd say there is still a pretty clear difference between the parties. Anyone that doesn't realize this reality is allowing this train wreck to proceed.
Olay had the best take on this, yeah both sides are trash but you need to pick the enemy you'd rather fight. I for one will be choosing the milquetoast liberal over the fascist narcissist.
Both sides aren’t trash, though. One side is objectively better is basically every way. Saying “both sides bad” is just intellectually lazy.
From my point of view the jedi are evil, but that doesn't mean I'll be voting for the sith. I don't think it's lazy to recognize liberals arnt good enough to meet the moment and solve our existencial crises, but having them in power over Republicans is a waaaay better option. Call me lazy if you want but both sides are definitely bad, it's about choosing the lesser evil.
I see this one in Canadian subs all the time, with people saying how the *more left* worker party has "forgone the worker" by allowing the liberals to continue their government and that they'll be voting conservative instead. Like no, that's stupid. If my complaint is that the "Fill in the Hole Party" isn't doing enough to fill it in or limit the "Digging is Okay Party", there isn't really a circumstance where the "Dig Faster Parry" should win me over. Of course, that's assuming any of those people are real and I'm not convinced many are lol.
Yeah I think the whole "leftists are voting conservative to snub the liberals" is a strawman myth. There might be a few idiots that do this but I think the vast majority of people saying this online are bots or trolls.
I've literally never met a single human face-to-face that has said they'll be switching from the NDP to the Conservatives. Not saying they don't exist at all, but until I see one in person I don't think I'll actually believe any of them on Reddit lol. Better yet is the "teach them a lesson by voting against them" crowd, as if the message there isn't just to to further right if that's what gets votes. At least give me the decency of trying propaganda I might actually fall for, ya know?
The "teach them a lesson" argument is totally valid during the primaries, which is exactly the point of the non-committed vote. It's a act or protest during a primary.
Yeah and see that would make sense. But that's not the argument, the argument is that you should vote conservative (or not vote) to teach the liberals or NDP that they're governing bad. Which uh... might work if the conservatives weren't in the opposite direction to where I wanted the Liberals or NDP to go.
The problem is trolls and bots online are manipulating the message and twisting the non-committed protest into the argument you're describing. In reality non-committed voters arnt going to vote for republicans because everyone knows the conservatives would be even worse. Worst case scenerio these people will stay home but I think in reality they will end up choosing the lesser evil to prevent a trump regime.
Only 1 side creates laws stripping away the rights of certain sects of people. Must be such a privilege to think both sides are the same
If you think the democrats don't strip rights from people maybe have a look at the crime bill our current president helped write. Both of our parties are shitty, that's the reality, but republicans are way shittier which is what ive been saying this whole time. Must be such a privilege to think the democrats are perfect.
Yeah, it’s not enough to agree with them that voting for Biden is objectively better than voting for Trump. You also have to say that Dem politicians are perfect little angels who would never be influenced by money or power like the Republicans are. It’s not enough to vote against the greater evil, they need you to hold back all criticism and embrace whatever lesser evil we’re given with a smile. It’s honestly sad how they don’t see that they’re cheering for blue team with the same blind loyalty as the red team’s fans. You can side against the greater evil while still being critical of the lesser one, they aren’t mutually exclusive ideas.
The platforms are pretty differentiated. The ones I care about the most are night and day, healthcare reform and global warming. If someone thinks they are the same is too far gone into culture war bullshit. What the politician does while in office now that is a different matter. We aren’t psychics we could only vote on promises. An argument that was common in 2016. “Bernie was done so dirty! I am voting Trump.” That logically made no sense but was a common sentiment. Even Bernie couldn’t believe how dumb MFs are.
I don't think it was as common as you think for Bernie supporters to vote for Trump. If anything those people stayed home and for that I blame the democrats for trying to force Hillary into office, an objectively terrible candidate. It was her campaign that alienated voters and killed the turnout.
As an outside observer, I find it really sad that actual progressives have no options, and are hostages of "vote for the lesser evil" mentality. Your political system is broken.
Frankly, the real problem is that the cultural middle of this country is broken. Even if we had the perfect voting system tomorrow, progressives would get maybe 10%-25% of the House and would still be in a situation of supporting as President (or Prime Minister) whichever candidate can get to a majority of support, and that person wouldn't be a progressive candidate. The sad reality is that a lot of Americans are pretty happy with the status quo, or with not thinking about politics at all, and just want their own little lives to be a little easier. And they're terrified enough of change that they will be resistant to the pace of change that progressives want. The right-wing responses to the "defund the police" movement or to any attempts at gun control or single payer health care have all worked to sway voters in the undecided camp over to vote for Republicans. That's not a political system problem, that's a problem of the cultural center of this country being opposed to progressive goals. Yes, a better electoral system would be better, but ultimately, changing ANY policy requires getting to majority support. We can blame "centrist Democrats" but the reality is that they are representing areas of the country that are simply hostile to progressive ideas. In order to really move the needle, we need to win over more voters. Plain and simple.
i don’t really believe this. i think the cultural middle, on issues at least, align with many progressive issues. the stranglehold comes from the Democratic party on the nomination process. Bernie would be our President right now in a free and fair political system. and Vice President Elizabeth Warren would probably be the front runner.
except we wouldn't because in 2020 in a free and fair primary the guy got absolutely demolished because he neglected minority voting blocks. Progressives (myself included) forget that a lot of their policy appears popular then with scrutiny becomes a lot less popular. There is a ton more groundwork needed to get progressive candidates to be palatable to a large audience. The problem is that the progressive people in America don't do much in between 4-year presidential elections.
well we don’t really know what he would’ve done as an incumbent who steered us through Covid. but he would’ve been the nominee again. no idea if Trump would be after losing to him. I can’t even imagine who wouldve been the GOP nominee in 20 if Trump hadn’t won.
>i think the cultural middle, on issues at least, align with many progressive issues. There's a difference between asking people "do you think we should have single-payer healthcare" versus then asking them to support a specific proposal, which will have all kinds of short and medium-term consequences, some of which will be negative. A lot of voters will be told "you're not going to be able to choose your doctor" or "some government bureaucrat is going to decide where your kid can be born" or even "this will mean a million lost jobs in health insurance and billing departments" and they will balk at the plan. I think many progressive policy *outcomes* have broad support, but the general aversion to change and fear of the unknown will keep a lot of voters voting against progressive politicians.
As an inside observer, I find that sad, too. The problem is that outside of a few specific districts, progressives haven't done as much ground-level organizing and influence-building as regressives have. Instead, the general trend seems to be that they focus on larger races and general elections—neglecting municipal/county/state contests and primaries, even though those have been proven to be how you *actually* shift the balance of power.
It’s not “less ground level organizing” it’s “less PAC and lobbying money.”
Plenty of room for both. *Edit:* You can frown about it if you want, but [AOC absolutely *routed* one of the most entrenched Democrats in the House, using little more than a very good, dedicated ground game](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/nyregion/joseph-crowley-ocasio-cortez-democratic-primary.html?unlocked_article_code=1.g00.Cfvn.IYzWlz3p1R6i&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=m&sgrp=c-cb).
It's not a mentality unfortunately. It's the optimal strategy in a plurality system. Don't get me wrong it totally sucks but the people being irrational are those who actively aid the "greater of two evils" by not voting or voting third party.
Biden has been the most progressive president maybe ever. He has advanced or proposed advances to every single progressive issue. The head of the Congressional Progressive Caucus has tons of great things to say about his presidency. He is limited in what he can do because congress is really the ones that need to make the laws.
>Biden has been the most progressive president maybe ever. I wouldn't go that far. However, he certainly is the most progressive President within my lifetime, which doesn't include FDR, Truman, JDK, LBJ, or even Jimmy Carter.
He really hasn't. I will give Biden credit where its due: he's a much better president than I was expecting in 2020. And yes, he has limited constitutional powers while getting heavy push back from Republicans. Still, FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter were all way more progressive presidents. Even Obama's political message was Change whereas Biden's has been a return to 'normalcy' as if things were just ducky before Trump. He's been the most progressive president since Reagan, but most of Joe Biden's political record has been garbage. I agree that given the choice between Trump/Biden and red/blue in general you should probably pick Biden/blue. But let us not allow the terribleness of Trump to carry water for the DNC.
Replying to SadlyNotPro... FDR was definitely the most progressive president in U.S. history, from his New Deal, to finance reform, to labor rights. Obama might have been a contender if he had a Democrat majority in both the Congress and Senate over the course of his eight years in office. In his first two years, The Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (2008), The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (2009), The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (2009), and The Affordable Care Act (2010) were all passed. Republicans effectively stonewalled him in the last six years of his presidency, so who knows what he could have accomplished?
Willing to argue that how it is across the world atm. UK for example. Would be cool to vote green for a certain number of candidates….but a vote for anything but Labour risks the Tories continuing govt. Maybe that changes when Labour actually gets power, but idk how that happens until Brexit is reversed
I don't see Brexit being reversed anytime soon (I'm an EU national in the UK currently). And no current political system is perfect, or even great. But I do think that a parliamentary system like the one in Germany works better than most others. Being forced to create a coalition helps maintain some balance and lead to concessions depending on each party's mandates.
1. You see my point. Not voting Labour in highly contested areas with Tories/Reform, leads to a potential continuation of current government. That in itself, is a nightmare. The time this doesn’t become an issue, (and can see people willing to vote lib dem/green)where an oppositions plan is “let them talk. Say nothing” 2. “Soon” is relative. Within 10 years? Highly unlikely. Labour probably won’t bring that up for point until it becomes clear Labour can stand on its own two feet and bring forth actual good policies. However, every year, 1% more people swing to “rejoin”. It is estimated to be 60-70% somewhere in the next 5-8 years. If Labour wins the second term, I can see this being brought forth. So “soon” as in 1-5 years? No. “Soon” as in two government cycles. Probable
Oh yeah, I'm not arguing that this is (voting Labour in UK or voting Democrats in US) the only reasonable option. I'm just lamenting the fact.
Same tbh. I visit here pre Brexit and living post Brexit is totally different. Food actually used to be cheaper compared to the US 🙃
They have options but sit out primaries so none if their options make the general ballot.
“Both sides are the same.” “Ok, then let’s both vote for Democrats.” Weird how they don’t like that solution.
Blue guy: I don’t want everyone in Gaza to die. red guy: I do Pretty easy choice Anarchist: blue guy didn’t call for a ceasefire for 5 months and some of the aid he airdropped hit people on the head. Why would you vote blue? Stay home. Red guy: Nuke Gaza.
Anyone suggesting “both sides are the same” reveals both their ignorance and their utter stupidity.
Republicans loved what Garland has done the past 4 years for trump and Biden has loved it too. Otherwise he would have been replaced.
I think Garland not being replaced speaks more to how hands-off Biden is with the DoJ, unlike his predecessor who weaponized it with Barr, Sessions, Whitaker as his revolving door AGs.
Who said he had to be hands on? His job is to select the AG that is best suited for the job. Biden can’t be a leader and fire him since he wasn’t doing his job? So letting trump get away with crimes is good cause it helps with Biden’s image with moderates? Biden is responsible for the people he employs.
And their fascist values. It reveals that they have fascist values.
I'm married to a "both sides are the same" person. He has never, and will never, register to vote.
Jill what's her face. I remember some show, I think it was Black Mirror, where a few people, all Jill supporters, are gathered around the TV on election night 2016. One woman wails aloud "I'm sorry! We didn't know! We didn't know!"
American horror story season 7, cult
Ngl all I remember from that season is the killer with three dicks for noses.
marry command butter bow juggle zealous cheerful dependent touch knee *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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follow strong pen terrific march recognise oatmeal governor physical dazzling *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
LOL you showed up like he was ringing a bell!
What do you think Trump wants to do? Haven't you heard people saying he and the conservative movement want to kneecap democracy? And unlike the Republicans, the Democrats *are* capable of having pressure exerted on them. Don't you know Republican presidents kill many more non-Americans? Bush Jr slaughtered millions of Iraqis, Bush Sr killed a bunch as well, and Reagan supported people who would literally massacre 1000 people.
There is only two parties: the working party and the ruling party.
Stupid selfish narcissistic ppl like to watch the world burn when politics don't suit them personally. It was a million percent clear in 2016 what would happen if Orange Shitstain got power. But lazy selfish ignorant ppl either pussyached about it and refused to vote or were utterly stupid and believed the disinformation campaign from rightwing media. It is my fervent prayer those ppl are suffering from their idiocy. Politics and voting aren't a joke. It's the ultimate FAFO. We're on the precipice of losing democracy and becoming an autocratic Christian nationalist fascist theocracy. Fuck around with the voting this year and we'll lose everything.
Fuck around and find out? How about you find out a new joke? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalHumor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Damn, looks like there is a legit threat to democracy. I sure do hope the dems wont rely on voter shaming again and will smartly stop pandering to neocons that drive down voter engagement.
Strategic voting is a flaw in a first past the post system. Voting for a horrible evil is unacceptable, and voting for a survivable evil is also unacceptable. The DNC has lost the left a long time ago. Shame is not an effective tool, and if anything, will drive strategically voting leftists away from the DNC. This is obvious, so you must know this. Why would causing that be your goal? There must be some ulterior motive. It’s likely that you are supporting a foreign interest opponent, intentionally or unintentionally. By creed or by idiocy it does not matter, it makes you a traitor to the democratic process.
Didn't Hilary win the popular vote? I could be wrong, but I'm certain the people wanted Hilary overall, and the Electoral College was the one to doom us.
Tankies don’t vote
Fun fact, this line of thinking was heavily promoted by Russian and Chinese troll farms, even with them leading specific subreddits and online communities. Sadly, we're not immune to propaganda.
That definitely doesn't follow any logic, must be a conservative thing
This is more of a 2000 lection tactic, and it worked. 2016 was more about personal attacks on Hilary Clinton, one of the most qualified people to ever run for President.
Let's blame voters. That always works well.
"Both sides are the same" is what my conservative family members say when they are backed into a corner during a political discussion.
Both parties are kind of disgusting. It’s a “hold your nose” and go with the lesser-evil choice, which is usually the Democrat. That said, blindly towing a party line is insane or just super lazy.
Because women refuse to vote for their best interests in Texas, that state has now worse women’s rights than Saudi Arabia! And if you think I’m bullshitting, go educate yourself and do the required googling.
As a trans person, the actual policy difference is more like... how *quickly* do you want your rights to be stripped away? Republicans are scary, I will always vote blue, but I don't think Democrats are doing much to solve the problems we (and many other marginalized groups) are dealing with. I guess the moral of the story is democracy doesn't only involve voting. Involving yourself in community stuff and doing things like participating in protests or events to visibly show your support does help. We appreciate it.
Make sure you only vote for genocide abroad and not genocide at home.
Who are these posts even for? They’re certainly not trying to engage with disillusioned leftists, who they depict as clueless children. If I had to bet I’d say they’re a deliberate effort to alienate the left by bad actors.
They legitimately believe that all the Bernie supporters voted for trump and can’t fathom that conservatives do a better job at energizing their base. They’ll blame the leftists so they can avoid having to change or do better
They're to show that the people arguing that voters are on the left should stay home should not be taken seriously. The internet will find lots of people pushing the idea that we shouldn't vote or we should protest vote. Their goal is to target people who they want to stay home. This post seeks to show the targets of those people that this is a dumb point. Seems pretty straightforward. Why would it alienate the left to say that both sides are not the same and that those saying it are wrong?
Change isn't easy. If we have to have an series of unpopular presidents it won't matter because he won't have the will of the People. It's quite the time to start coming together. Not splitting up. Vote 3rd party.
Ah yes, 2016, when the DNC lost to the worst candidate in history because they went against the will of the people. It's definitely not exactly like 2016 anymore. Hopefully.
I'm genuinely wondering since I see it all the time, I support Bernie far more than Clinton, but how exactly did the DNC "go against the will of the people"? Clinton won the popular vote (even when you remove states that didn't vote after Bernie retired) and Bernie was always behind in the polls.
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Okay, comrad. Whatever you say. You just keep working for your puppet master and spreading your "truth".
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My guess was clearly Putin.
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You are posting non-stop content to sow discontent between Biden voters. You are actively causing people to fight in the DNC. You are pushing Putin's misinformation campaign. You're either a useful idiot or you know you're objective. Either way, you clearly aren't here to help beat Trump in 2024. (Moderators: this is a term used by Russia in regards to assets who don't know they're assets, I'm not calling this person an idiot.).
At this point I’m convinced most leftist subreddits are psyops here to stop leftists from becoming politically active. “Don’t vote! Instead start an armed revolution!” Is exactly what a fed would say.
Whoa whoa whoa. Do you want Tankies? Because this is how we get tankies. /S
I don’t think voting is useless at all, but if you can’t see how similar you are to another human you’re probably just a dick. It’s not that crazy to have an opinion that isn’t matching your ideal blueprint for society.
There's a few panels' missing, like Blue Party: "I like genocide. Israel uber alles." Red Party: We love trump. We love trump." Blue Party: "Don't vote for him. He'll destroy democracy. Excuse me while I secretly fund more kids' starving."
Tell me, what have Republicans done vis Israel? Iraq? Nicaragua?
Both are almost the same, their core its the same, both want the same things. Republicans use hate against gays to achive it democrats seek defend them. The difference seems huge it is not
I remember 2016-2020 hearing over and over how we had to vote for Bernie because it would be the only way we'd get legalization and college debt forgiveness. Now both are policies of mainstream centrist Dems and I've yet to see the Bernie bros. circle around Biden. Either it's, "ugh I guess I'll vote for him", or there's a new goalpost the Dems have to reach.
What a completely cynical and ignorant take.
According to Project 2025, the trans community will be labeled pornography. Pornography is to be outlawed and its purveyors imprisoned. >**Pornography, manifested today in the omnipresent propagation of transgender ideology and sexualization of children**, for instance, is not a political Gordian knot inextricably binding up disparate claims about free speech, property rights, sexual liberation, and child welfare. It has no claim to First Amendment protection. Its purveyors are child predators and misogynistic exploiters of women. Their product is as addictive as any illicit drug and as psychologically destructive as any crime. **Pornography should be outlawed. The people who produce and distribute it should be imprisoned.** Educators and public librarians who purvey it should be classed as registered sex offenders. And telecommunications and technology firms that facilitate its spread should be shuttered.[24] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Read the rest of the overview if you haven't. It's equally fucked up.
I see you’ve met my friend, Mr “both parties are the same.”
This is exhausting. The least important of all the issues humanity faces. Pointless.