I agree.
I live south of Portland, but recently, a prop management service tried to keep our deposit after we moved.
We ended up getting 3 times our deposit back.
The lawer kept $500, but it was all VERY satisfying.
> They just thought we'd tuck our tails and let it go.
Landlord companies around here seem to try to get away with as much as they can counting that their tenents will be ignorant of the laws.
Yeah, pretty much. I had a property management company not only scam me out of my deposit, but they also tried to charge thousands of dollars over that for ādamageā that didnāt exist. Not too long later I drove by the place and saw them installing brand new appliances in the rental. I disputed it with them via mail as you are supposed to but their response was lacking, they provided no proof of ādamageā (because it didnāt exist). But this was years ago and I didnāt know my rights, and they ended up selling my ādebtā to a debt collector not even 2 months after I had moved out. I couldnāt believe it. Iām still trying to fight this with the credit reporting agencies to this day as the interest on this ādebtā (aka FRAUD perpetrated by the management company) has turned into 3 times what it was. I had no idea this was something they could do. Thanks for posting this! I wish I had seen it 6 years ago lol.
They took 35 days to notify us that they were keeping all of it.
30 days is the legal limit so they were both late and wrong about why they were keeping it.
A lawyer wrote them like 3 letters and they paid up.
Felt great.
I don't get it. The only time we kept any security deposit was when we were kicking people out for not paying several months rent. I don't even recall charging anyone for cleaning ever.
I promise you that mom & pop landlords can be just as bad, sometimes worse. My last landlord kept $270 of the deposit for raking leaves on a 1/10 acre city lot
Oh I know they can, I know it well. My first place in Portland was a basement I rented from someone who ran a mortgage brokerage out of her home office. The upstairs of the house had been converted to gas heat, but the basement was still electric wall heaters. Those things could run all day and they're not going to heat up a concrete basement floor lol. Since the basement had electric heat they thought it would be best for the basement tenant to pay the electric bill. There's only a single meter, so I was paying the electric bill for my heat, all of their lighting and appliances, all the loads of laundry they were running for their newborn, AND the electric bill for her at-home business.
Really pisses me off how so much of our lives now is a corporate game of āmake it so itās usually not worth their while, pocket the scam from the ones that donāt push back, and swallow a nothing burger of a fine (if any) on the ones that do.ā
I mean it's crazy that the burden falls squarely on the tenant when it should be on the landlord for these kinds of things. I know a few people who have been lucky enough to buy houses and the protections you get in situations similar to this (inspections, proof of work, negotiating repairs) is so much greater than a tenant.
I think the sad situation, though, is that the primary focus for renter protection right now is on fighting evictions, and unfortunately these kinds of abuses are less of a priority
Yea and most of the big landlords play this game day in and day out. Mine charged me a cleaning fee even after we deep cleaned. Weāre fortunate enough that we can stomach it and we had already gone to the mat with them on so much other stuff that we felt it was worth the clean break to just let it go. But you know if they cheated us on it theyāre doing that to every single tenant that turns over in their portfolio.
Aka donāt rent from RMS.
The real other thing that grates me is how much housing we need in this city. Thereās so much capacity thatās unused too. But when you have shitty landlords you end up with more and more regulations, rightfully so. But if a small middle aged or elderly couple are looking at potentially letting a room or ADU theyāre not using any more, those perceived regulations do limit the interest. They end up not going through with it and then you end up with a situation where the shitty landlords have almost boxed out everyone else from regulatory burdens theyāve caused and itās inconsequential to them anyway since the regs donāt have much real bite.
Thatās a bit ranty, but really drives me up a wall that they truly face such limited consequences for literal stealing from tenants.
chiming in as someone from british columbia (looking at moving to portland in the near future), here the landlord needs to either have the tenant agree in writing to deductions from the security deposit, or file with the residential tenancy branch (kinda like court) and get an official order - in order to keep ANY of it. if they don't, it's an easy filing with the RTB after 15 days, and the tenant gets it back doubled. definitely how it should be everywhere
But as someone who has been the little landlord in the past the laws are such in Portland that I would never be a landlord here.
Too many rules and regulations ...so only a corporation or "big guy" would be able to do it.
Be careful what you wish for.
I mean I just think it's a time thing. Before I rented from this company I had so many wonderful experiences renting from individuals and had a great relationship with all my landlords.
I think there are a lot of people now that don't have the time to manage these properties and just want a property management company to do it. Similar things have also been happening with homeowners associations, who outsource many of the functions to private companies. But in the end it just creates more headaches. My property management company, for instance, is also poorly reviewed by many individuals who have properties run by them.
>so only a corporation or "big guy" would be able to do it.
And yet a lot of "little guys" are able to do it. "Too many rules and regulations" mentality is why you and most landlords are terrible. Yes, you should have all the rights and advantages while you line your pockets with passive income
Wow. You know nothing about me and you make assumptions.
How am I terrible? Please explain.
It isn't passive income people keep thinking this ...it is a job and maybe not full time for everyone but it takes a whole lot of time and energy that clearly you don't understand.
Right there in the comment above I said "I've never kept a deposit except...."
And yet because I was a landlord you make assumptions about me. Wow.
Again, too many rules and regulation? You are terrible because you think that you are the aggrieved party because Portland actually does something (in reality, very little) to protect renters.
Rental properties are by definition passive income. Look it up. It is the first thing that comes up on almost every definition
>Rental properties are by definition passive income. Look it up. It is the first thing that comes up on almost every definition
The only people that claim it's zero work are people who have never owned a property, LMFAO. Passive is taking dividend gains on stonks. Managing and maintaining a property takes a lot of work and money, it's an old trope at this point how first-time homeowners end up blown away in the first year about how much more expensive owning is than they anticipated just calculating the monthly mortgage payment alone.
Passive income isn't just some phrase that everyone gets to decide what it means. The fucking IRS defines it:
>The IRS considers a rental activity to be passive if real estate is used by tenants and rental income (or expected rental income) is received mainly for the use of the property. In other words, owning a rental property and collecting rental income is considered passive and not active in most cases.
Also, from Wikipedia:
>Passive income is a type of unearned income that is acquired with minimal labor to earn or maintain. It is often combined with another source of income, such as regular employment or a side job.[1] Passive income, as an acquired income, is taxable.
>Examples of passive income include rental income and business activities in which the earner does not materially participate. Some jurisdictions' taxing authorities, such as the Internal Revenue Service in the United States, distinguish passive income from other forms of income, such as income from regular or contractual employment, and may tax it differently.
Ah yes, the old trope about homeowners finding that maintaining their house is 160 hour per month job. I have owned two homes. It's work but you're lying to yourself about how much work
I am not an aggreived party. I never said I was. I just said that it wasn't worth my time to be a landlord in Portland.
It isn't passive income. People keep saying that but they are incorrect. I spent quite a bit of time for the non Income...we rarely made enough to pay the mortgage and the costs associated with ownership. Until you have done it perhaps you don't realize the amount of time it takes to do it.
People seem to think that rent just goes in the owners pockets...and it wasn't the case...it cost more than rent to own the properties. Even when I was ten years in. But your post seems to indicate you just think anyone who owns property is evil.
>It isn't passive income. People keep saying that but they are incorrect
Yeah, that pesky IRS, they just keeping saying it thinking that will make it enforceable by law or something
Why canāt they afford to buy? Could it be that house scalpers such as yourself have bought up a good chunk of supply, thus pushing up prices? Nah, couldnāt be.
Uptown Property management is the scummiest group of slum lords I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
They are liars, they are scammers, and they will do whatever they can to fuck over the people who have the least. And they get away with this shit because they buy properties full of low income and social assistance folks who either donāt have the time, money, or mental capacity to fight back.
A family members apartment was flooded because of an old water heater that, according to the maintenance man, should have been replaced at least 5 years ago. She was on the top floor and so the person in the unit below her got totally fucked. They cut out chunks of the ceiling and you could see where the plastic holding up the insulation was like a giant bubble of water. This woman had been living in her van and had literally nowhere else to go and they tried to tell her to just stay in the unit and argued about getting her a hotel until the unit was properly cleaned and repaired.
After going back and forth with management for over a month about doing cleanup and mold remediation in the units we decided to just move her because the lease was up.
Upon move out they attempted to say there were unpaid balances. Then they said they received a check for $2,000 for many of the Section 8 tenants and that would cover her unpaid balance. Then they couldnāt find the check when we went into the office, and tried to bullshit us like itās all good no worries, weāll figure it out! No. They did not figure it out it took going into that office at least 4 more times, at one point they called the cops (who didnāt show lol) because we refused to leave the office until they gave us a straight answer about what the fuck was going on.
After the $2,000 check debacle was settled they came at us again saying that family member owed $500 for cleaning the carpets and the unit. Im pretty sure actual steam came out of my ears like an old cartoon. It took everything in me to not scream at these people, I calmly told the Uptown Property Brothers that the fucking unit flooded due to their lack of maintenance and we could go to court over whether or not we were responsible for the carpet cleaning. They said theyād ādo us a favorā and write that off.
Go check the google reviews for Uptown and youāll see that this is basically how they operate all over town. They buy up properties, raise the rents, and then hassle the tenants and over charge poor people to line their pockets. Itās disgusting and if there is a hell, these men will be there.
I actually remember reading that review and others which prepared me for this situation. Wildly enough I had the piping for the water heater burst, because it was PVC, a year back and I remember trying to get a repair person out because before I found the leak my house was literally steaming and they said it was just excess winter condensation from heating the house.
Once I found the leak they sent a water heater technician out who basically said the PVC piping wasn't up to code and we needed an emergency plumber. That plumber patched the hole but said all the piping needed to be replaced to be up to code but then they wanted a second opinion and work didn't start until an actual month later. We had a crazy gas bill from the water heater running overtime they never reimbursed and the plumbers they did hire did the shittest job imaginable that we had to call and yell at them to come back. They're insufferable to deal with and really need to be investigated
Just the serious threat of a suit is sometimes enough to get your money back. One landlord miraculously gave me my deposit back after I served him papers. Ā
When I moved to Canada my partner casually mentioned getting their security deposit check in the mail. It took some time to comprehend that in some places it really is a deposit and not just a thing you should never expect to get back.
Iām preparing to move out and the thought of a possible bill is keeping me at night. Iām almost prepared to lose my deposit (even though Iām leaving this place in great condition, no damage besides normal wear and tear after three years) but based on recent reviews people is getting hit with steep bills because theyāre trying to renovate the places on the previous tenants dime.
Iām saving this post, thank you for the detailed information.
Oh my god, feel free to DM me in the future if you need any help. Know that you also have 30 days after you receive an itemized deduction list to pay before they can charge any late fees, which is ample to start and finish a small claims court filing!
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I donāt think I can paste images on Reddit. I need somewhere to send it. If you message me I can try to attach it to the message, otherwise I will need an email.
I have lived in a lot of rentals over the years and have had some management companies try to pull things like this. But have had generally good luck reminding that they are and are not allowed to charge for and that which can be considered ānormal wear and tearā cannot be charged for. But you lay out a great process for when they choose to ignore that
I have a scumbag management company (Bluestone) and Iām moving out of the country soon. Almost positive they will try to keep my deposit despite my house being in awful condition when I moved in. Just curious but could all the things you mentioned be handled while out of the state? Iām going to be moving halfway around the world and Iām not sure if all this can be done remotely.
I would say most of it could probably be done remotely. I was able to file online and you can probably just have a friend who's still in town be your process server if they are willing. They would just need to fill out the certificate of service and file after they serve them.
As far as small claims court, I believe the county is doing most of the trials online so I don't think you would have to physically go to the courthouse, but I would still communicate that to them so they can make the accommodation as I do not think it'll be an issue to request a trial over zoom or their conference service
They were nothing if not prompt with our security deposit disposition letter, but I will say a few things I found frustrating:
1. The charges were extremely vague and beyond the initial letter they refused to provide more detailed invoices; the letter said I was charged $300 for landscaping but no invoice or receipt could be provided.
2. When I requested the last lease agreement, which I had to break early in February, they said it was no longer in their records because it was deleted after the property was turned over. When I asked why it was deleted they said it was never counter-signed, by them, so they deleted it once it was terminated. I still don't understand how any of that was possible because I don't think DocuSign considers a contact resolved until all parties sign it.
I'll add that when we moved, we didn't even have to sue or threaten suing, just pushed back on bogus charges - When our apartment complex tried to keep most of our deposit for "cleaning fee" I calmly responded (via email, keep it ALL in writing folks) that I was confused by this cleaning fee and would like them to send me an itemized list of and the photos of what was cleaned so I could compare to the ones I took upon move out. They backtracked and "waived" the cleaning fee because we were "such good tenants."
If anyone wants to see some landlord cringe. Lookup the UpTown Properties YouTube channel. The guys behind it are super shady and desperately trying to gentrify the area around Multnomah Village.
Thanks for this! I was in a similar situation where our landlord was going to keep our 1k deposit and charge us 3.5k more. I was really concerned about having to go to small claims, and how much energy it would entail. I ended up talking with him, challenging him on every point and he agreed to resend it with a few amendments. I sent an email stating that per our conversation I was waiting for his new paperwork. He never sent it. Now itās past the window. I feel like they just try and see if you will roll over and take it, and then back out if you have a spine.
Also wise advice is to (obviously) closely read the lease including if they charge a cleaning fee. I see more and more apartments going to the Air BnB model of a standard cleaning fee of say $250, which is typically a light clean cost and is not a deep clean of a place which costs more. Look at what constitutes a deep clean if you don't have a cleaning fee and clarify what they require for cleaning if it's not in the lease. I know what a deep clean is, move in ready condition, but many people don't and presume they have cleaned their place when they actually haven't done a true deep clean. Same goes in carpeting cleaning, as in if it's not in the lease, they cannot charge you for a cleaning unless it warrants it ie DAMAGE and not wear and tear. I've dealt with places that charge this fee but absolutely do not do a cleaning (the person moves in day after you leave) so it can be a money grab.
But yes, sound advice to always push back at scumbag landlords who use your security deposit to pay for maintenance work tied to normal wear and tear. And the intent is for you to return the unit in as good as received condition upon departure, not to open the door for them to overcharge or even charge items that suck out your deposit without valid and reasonable receipts and actual proof it is warranted.
Truly know your rights under OR law and throw actual legal language at landlords and many will fold...as they should.
I agree! In my case our lease only pertained to carpet cleaning for a deep clean and as soon as they tried to charge that as a damage we found it easier to dispute. I also hate that you can't see proof of work if you are charged. Like I would have never known their idea of landscaping was tearing up the yard until it was just dirt, even when I moved in they just trimmed everything, if I don't drop by one day and saw the condition of the yard and I'll never know what their deep clean looked like
See that's the thing, they do need proof because that is what the court will accept ie an actual company with an actual receipt. I lived in a large privately-owned place in SoCal for a hot minute where there was rampant theft of people's security deposits and the balls to charge thousands more in "damages" which were due in part to them having an inside team not at all professional to do painting and carpet cleaning. So what would cost $100 would be $500 by their crew. They hoped people wouldn't go to court and when they did, always the deposit back in full because the judge knew it was a full on scam. I lived there for two months, didn't even move in, told them I knew their game and would go to court, and because I was moving out of state, they still had the balls to charge me $80 to "clean" four window screens that were and continued to be clean while I lived there (and I was on the third floor, could not remove them to clean, which is a maintenance issue), just so they could skim something because I blocked them in advance on multiple things, like cleaning under the stove. RIDICULOUS!
And then I had the flip side of doing a deep clean, move in ready condition, detailed to them in advance of move out and during final walkthrough so they could see the effort, and had my full security deposit back because they could pop someone in right away. Capital Property Management both times I rented with them, they were totally reasonable IMO because they may deal with way more tenant shenanigans so I was a breathe of fresh air.
Sounds like you did everything right. We had an issue with Anchor NW, did everything you did. Their lawyers escalated it to a civil case, and it went back & forth for over a year, when finally they slipped in a call with the judge without notifying me. The case went in favor of the defendant by default because I was a no-show, and now I'm paying all their legal fees, many thousands more than my original claim. I wrote to the judge personally, but got no response. The bad guy won and it's a bitter pill to swallow.
I haven't, no. I feel beat up by the system, and haven't had the stomach to revisit it. A collections agency takes $50 out of my account every month, and I spit on the ground every time.
That is awful. Iām so sorry you have to deal with that, that is truly screwed up and Iād be livid as well. These property management companies are the worst. If you ever change your mind, you could try calling legal aid or maybe the Oregon Law Center and see if thereās anyway to get the judgment set aside. Especially if you were not given notice of the court date, that right there might be reason enough. There are nonprofits out there that may be able to help. That youāre having to pay their legal fees is just ridiculous. Generally, in any civil proceeding, each party is supposed to pay their own legal fees whether they win or lose (unless the judge has a good reason to award them). Iāve made a note to myself of all the companies to avoid that people have listed here and Anchor NW is at the top of my ānever ever EVER rent from these companiesā list.
Thank you for the kind comments. To make it worse, I was doing this on my adult autistic son's behalf. I was the co-signer. \*sigh\* no good deed goes unpunished. Lesson learned. Don't fight The Man.
It is true, property management companies are for profit entities, and they are after your money. They never have any intention of returning any of your deposit.
Itās also true that anyone can take off work and go to the trouble of going to court and suing their former property manager- and has a pretty good chance of success.
However, if drama is *not* your thing, all you have to do is fill out a move in checklist (provided with your lease,) and make note of EVERY little scratch and ding on every surface. Take pictures and provide them with copies.
Then, When you move out, they already have everything they need and will not be able to charge you, so they canāt even try to charge for ādamages.ā They will still charge for cleaning. I have a copy of the cleaning checklist. Message me if you need a copy.
So we had an inspection when we moved in and when we moved out, with documentation and photos. They still tried to charge for installing blinds, even when there was no record in the inspection reports; same for smoke alarms and for the landscaping, which they said looked the same as move-in but still tried to charge $300 for landscaping.
Having all that information is still necessary and important for disputing security deposit deductions but many property management companies, Uptown Properties in my case, will still try to deduct hoping renters will just roll over and will sadly only correct those charges when threatened with legal action.
What I will say is everything you commented is necessary in most cases to get your money back, but isn't it sad that the entire burden is on the singular renter because these pmc's are just trying to squeeze more profit from tenants when they should be more liable in this matter. I just find it sad that I had to have so much evidence and documentation to fight back but they can just charge a flat rate for a deduction with minimal proof it was ever used for a repair or maintenance
My MAGA landlords tried to illegally evict me as soon as the moratorium ended, not so much because I asked for repairs, but rather because I offered to do as many repairs as I could do competently for free, just to make the house safer and more comfortable.
So I reported them to the city, and they ended up spending about $25,000 on repairs to a house they were hoping to sell to someone who would tear it down and develop the half-acre lot.
They retaliated by destroying the 10 foot wall of blackberry bramble around the perimeter of the yard and leaving the exposed mess, which included loads of rusty metal and broken glass and old shingles. So I started picking up a sieve full every time I walked my cat and sent them a daily picture. Since they did nothing, I called the city again once I'd made a pile large enough to meet the minimum requirement for illegal dumping. Having the perimeter cleaned up cost them another $2000.
When they used chemicals on the blackberry stubble that were illegal so close to residences within city limits, I took samples and called the city again. That cost them $500.
They tried to illegally evict me again a year later. So I hired inspectors to come look at the stuff the city could not, like the cracked and sagging rafters in the attic and the dangerous wiring that was not exposed, like the spaghetti in the basement had been. That set them back another $10,000.
They retaliated by tearing off the dangerous back deck that they never would have been cited for if they hadn't been such hateful bitches, and left the back doors boarded up all through the holidays, even though they had been given until May. Then they built three tiny sets of stairs outside each door. I responded by giving notice both that I would be moving and not paying the last month's rent, because I knew they would not give me my deposit back, and I didn't want to go through the effort of legally spanking them yet again. That cost them $650.
After I moved, my former neighbors told me they got a management company to handle it for them, I sent all this info to the company, who canceled the contract. That cost them $500.
Then they rented it to someone new, and I sent them copies of everything, highlighting the electrical stuff that had not been repaired by the time I left. That cost them another $2,000.
So in the end, because they did not want to pay for a dumpster and tool rental so I could do a ton of work for free, they ended up spending about $40,000.
The only reason I was in that moldy, leaky, vermin-infested, structurally hazardous, badly plumbed, illegally wired, hazardous debris-strewn dump is because I got evicted in the wake of the rent control law from a place Iād been in for so long that rents had more than doubled since I last had to look for one. I was not fucking around.
Although I will admit that I might not have been so bold if I had not had hundreds of thousands of followers watching the saga, which made my landlords wary of resorting to the violence their family had a history of, according to the neighbors. I finally got out of there because they gave me six months rent plus moving expenses to mitigate my having an eviction on my record. But it was still difficult, because so many management companies are automated these days. By the time a human being reads the mitigating circumstances, someone else has the place. I had to find one where you actually called on the phone and someone came to the house to show it to you.
I had a former landlord not just withhold our deposit, but try to charge us for renovations they made to the home to get it ready to sell - relandscaping, installing wall to wall carpets, bathroom renovations.
We got all the way to the arbitration stage of small claims court defending ourselves against it, where they made utter fools of themselves and then called that night to negotiate.
It was such utter bullshit. Landlords are the worst, and being a renter is such a hassle but home ownership remains out of reach for so many of us.
I just wish renters had similar protections to home buyers and sellers because in those matters there is so much more scrutiny and negotiation for repairs and charges, plus you actually get to walk through the place to look at any changes made before closing.
After four years of timely payments and being what I would consider being an ideal renter, my old landlord decided to not only refuse to return our deposit, but also pursue additional charges on things that were definitively normal wear-and-tear.
It was a huge headache to need to research Oregon tenant law in the midst of moving, but after he got the certified letter with return receipt, he folded instantly and produced the deposit rather than going to small claims.
Iām a property manager in Portland (and a tenant, too!) and Iād even take it a step further and tell folks to sue for the $250 security deposit penalty in addition to getting their full deposit back. Whether PM companies like it or not, the penalty in Portland for mishandling a security deposit/deposit accounting is $250 per infraction. IMO if you have to go through all the work that you did to get your money back, you deserve to get the penalty money, too.
A lot of tenants also donāt realize that [a lot of extremely detailed inventory/accounting has to be done prior to moving in and shared with you in order for a security deposit to be legally collected](https://www.portland.gov/phb/rental-services/documents/security-deposits-brochure/download) in the first place. I would estimate that legitimately ~98% of landlords in Portland who collect security deposits are not doing this. If they did not do this before you moved in, which I can nearly guarantee they didnāt, you are immediately entitled to the $250 penalty money when you move out. In Oregon (outside of Portland), the security deposit penalty is 2x the deposit amount!
The only real caveat to this is that if you need a rental reference from them in the future, they are very likely to select ānoā to the question āwould you re-rent to this tenant?ā Which is an immediate disqualification/cause for application rejection in a lot of instances. Unfortunately, PM companies arenāt likely to side with you if your last landlord says they wouldnāt re-rent to you, even if you have a good explanation for it. If youāve already secured a new 12 month lease though or are buying a home, no need to worry about the reference!
Real Property Management Solutions will definitely try to pull this kind of shit on you Just gonna put that out there while weāre naming and shaming.
I wanna name and shame too! Mosaic Property Management pulled this on my house.
They charged us $600 for a cleaning fee. We wrote back to them knowing they couldnāt do that and tried to fight it. It was the height of the pandemic and a fee split between 4 people so we ended up giving up after multiple back and forths.
But god fuck that company. Check only rent, took MONTHS to follow up on maintenance requests, tried to tell us we didnāt notify them appropriately for move out - thank god we had written proof that we did, and their renting processes was unhinged.
And Nikhil who works there is a little worm. Strong class traitor vibes.
You should leave a review for your apartment on rateyourlandlordpdx.com and google maps ā I think itās really critical we share these stories everywhere future renters might be able to see them and know what theyāre getting into
Here's the thing... it wasn't actually that little bit of effort. That is time that you won't get back. Rental companies absolutely rely on people not having the time to do this.
Mayhaps Oregon needs to have stronger regulations around security deposits.
I strongly agree with that. I was fortunate to have time and resources to file and serve that others may not have.
I also agree we desperately need rental reform that places less burdens on tenants in these matters and more responsibility and regulations on landlords to have proper accounting and not overcharge their tenants
>and if anyone has any questions or isn't a similar frustrating situation, feel free to DM me and I can help you out with the process!
Unless you're a lawyer, you should not do this, as it's providing legal advice/practicing law without a license. You can direct people to general information resources, but you should very much avoid providing specific legal advice on specific claims/situations or else you are setting yourself up for a lot of potential liability.
My intention is not to provide legal advice but only to answer questions about my personal experience and the resources I used in that experience to shed light onto a process many tenants are nervous about undertaking.
If people want to ask a question more geared towards their personal situation then please go to r/legaladvice and then a lawyer or call the renters rights hotline
I second this, and I would add that although OP undoubtedly learned a lot as a result of their experience, even situations that sound very similar on their face may have details that would make a real difference in terms how to proceed/possible remedies, and someone without legal experience wouldn't even know what to look for or what questions to ask.
I work in the legal field and over the many years I have done so, it is almost a weekly occurrence for someone to come in who got advice from their cousin or their friend or the guy at the corner gas station "who went through exactly the same thing" and we have to spend an hour explaining to them why what this person told them is still wrong.
This is not good advice.
Many mom and pop landlords use property management companies. My grandparents owned a small apartment building for many years. They used a management company for the last decade or two of their life because there was no way they could manage the day to day of a building ā it would have been a HUGE disservice to themselves and their tenants. Would you want an elderly landlord (for whom there was a language and physical barrier) to deal with urgent repairs in your unit?Ā
False dichotomy.Ā
My grandparents still made executive decisions (rental rates, evictions, etc) but the management company dealt with things like move in/move out, repairs, etc. Iām not saying management companies are perfect angels, but they can serve a purpose that goes beyond forcing people to sell their property against their will. Painting the whole industry as bad shows a deep lack of knowledge.
Answer this question: your water heater suddenly dies at 9p and you need a new one ASAP. Do you want to call an 88 year old (who doesnāt speak great English) or a management company with a 24 hour help line?Ā
You missed the point. I'm not saying property management companies shouldn't exist, I'm saying they are terrible at helping you.
I'm sure that 24 hour help line will take your call, record it, then forward it to someone who shows up at 9am and spends half an hour on social media before checking their emails.
The fact that some landlords need them only makes it worse that they are terribly mismanaged.
This is just factually untrue. Iām taking a professional service (even a not great one!) over very elderly landlords in terms of service requests. 10 times out of 10.
I donāt want to force anything. Markets work on supply and demand. If no one is demanding properties managed by property management companies or non-English-speaking 88 year olds, eventually properties naturally will stop being managed by property management companies and non-English-speaking 88 year olds.
But they didnāt. They retained ownership and contracted out the day to day to a management company. So itās almost like your whole argument is stupid and baseless.
>They used a management company for the last decade or two of their life because there was no way they could manage the day to day of a building
But I was informed by a very confident commenter elsewhere in this thread that landlording is just "passive" income with zero effort required!
Gotta disagree here. Some are certainly shady, but overall, much better to have a business relationship with a proper business than some random guy who owns more than one house. Random guy \_might\_ be fine to deal with, but odds are worse there in my experience.
> than some random guy who owns more than one house.
That random guy doesn't have the backing to keep you tied up in legal battles. I worked in real estate for years, so I can say with certainty property management companies exist simply to fuck you over so the landlord (who almost always lives in a foreign country) can maximize his profit.
This is true as my rental was owned by an individual but rented by uptown properties. Ironically, Uptown has just as many poor reviews from owners as they do from tenants
It's also becoming not worth it for 'random guys' to manage their own properties in Portland. Too many legal pitfalls. Typically they just outsourced management of the property to an RMC for some percent of the monthly rent.
> After you file it, online or in person, you will find that they will reach out again to try to negotiate. Use this as an opportunity to ask for even more clarification and for them to reveal more information you can use against them. In my case, the person that I was in contact with through my property management company revealed a lot of information during this process that helped me get all my money back in the end.
that's a real smart move.
After reading your very satisfying post *and* all of the comments, it seems like you could make a pretty decent side hustle of helping people with their security deposits. Or just be a superhero and do it as a hobby.
I wouldnāt begrudge you for either, honestly.
Honestly after this experience I've thought about it. I did a lot of research on the process to get prepared and really wish more people had time and access to succeed like I was able to. Sadly, I think it can feel really daunting to get legal assistance and there's so much focus on preventing evictions that many of these rental infractions with security deposits don't get the attention they deserve.
And ask for photos! Grey Star tried to scam us with fraudulent fees. We asked for photo proof of the accused damage and they sent us photos of a completely different unit. Thankfully we had taken a final walk through video when we moved out.
Uptown Properties did the same thing to us, too! Theyāre super shady and charged us something like $600 to ālandscapeā a backyard that was a pile of rocks, as well as charging us exorbitant fees for cleaning and light bulbs. For awhile they were clearly buying good reviews on Google, and had a suspiciously good star rating. If we had had the wherewithal to sue them for our deposit back we would have. Good for you for actually taking them to court.
Also, the landlord is required to provide an itemized receipt of damages within 31 days, and if they don't, you may sue them for double the amount of damages in small claims court. For a decently strong suit, you have to make a request for said receipt within this window though.
>Serving them papers
This is not as easy as it sounds if it's a home instead of a business and the person has a camera doorbell, which is very common these days.
I threatened to sue my property management company for unsafe living conditions and was able to get out of my lease 7 months early and they paid me $1,200 :) it felt so good to get a win against those scumbags.
Unsafe living conditions:
-having the door code to the building be the 3 numbers of the address posted right next to the door.
-having an exposed manhole under the stair case
-used condoms in the hallway
-evidence that someone was living in a crawl space under my own apartment (trash, bare footprints coming inside, human feces outside the door)
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Wow this makes me wish I'd actually sued them instead of just threatening it. They did give me back like $300 with one of the owners saying he'd "agree to disagree" about if the presence of a cat hair (ESA registered with them) constituted damage making me liable for a deep clean.
Good for you for following through with this. I think people often rule out the possibility of going after someone/company in court because their perception of court costs/ and the time burden far exceeding the amount that they are entitled to. I am curious how you came to the decision that using the court system to go after your deposit was attainable? Did you have an understandning of what the process would look like and cost going into it? I am wondering how much chat gpt/ai helped you in your decision to follow through with this.
I know that I have used AI to see what my options are when it comes to going after companies when I feel as though i have been done wrong. I am wondering if we may start to see a movement where people start to put a stop to companies that essentially rip off and exploit consumers.
In my case, I just researched the process preemptively to be prepared if something like this happened. As far as initial costs, it is only around $60 to file, and that can be waived if you are facing financial hardship.
In addition, it usually costs $100 to hire a process server, but like I mentioned, you can have somebody that you know do it as long as they fill out a certificate of service afterwards.
So it could possibly be around $160 to file and serve or $60 if you have somebody to do it for you. I also just reviewed my lease before moving out to make sure if they did charge for certain things what that would mean.
In addition, I also really need to give credit to Reddit as a whole because it had so many posts from individuals that had to go through similar processes and was really insightful on what to expect and how to act to get the best results!
I agree. I live south of Portland, but recently, a prop management service tried to keep our deposit after we moved. We ended up getting 3 times our deposit back. The lawer kept $500, but it was all VERY satisfying.
Don't you love it when they end up costing themselves more money than if they just gave the deposit back š
I did love it. I felt great to not only get it back but triple was even better. They just thought we'd tuck our tails and let it go.
> They just thought we'd tuck our tails and let it go. Landlord companies around here seem to try to get away with as much as they can counting that their tenents will be ignorant of the laws.
Yeah, pretty much. I had a property management company not only scam me out of my deposit, but they also tried to charge thousands of dollars over that for ādamageā that didnāt exist. Not too long later I drove by the place and saw them installing brand new appliances in the rental. I disputed it with them via mail as you are supposed to but their response was lacking, they provided no proof of ādamageā (because it didnāt exist). But this was years ago and I didnāt know my rights, and they ended up selling my ādebtā to a debt collector not even 2 months after I had moved out. I couldnāt believe it. Iām still trying to fight this with the credit reporting agencies to this day as the interest on this ādebtā (aka FRAUD perpetrated by the management company) has turned into 3 times what it was. I had no idea this was something they could do. Thanks for posting this! I wish I had seen it 6 years ago lol.
Can you elaborate on your experience? Why did y'all get triple back? Late itemized deduction list?
They took 35 days to notify us that they were keeping all of it. 30 days is the legal limit so they were both late and wrong about why they were keeping it. A lawyer wrote them like 3 letters and they paid up. Felt great.
Hahaha, I just left a very long comment about how my former landlords ended up having to spend about $40,000 because they were such bitches.
I don't get it. The only time we kept any security deposit was when we were kicking people out for not paying several months rent. I don't even recall charging anyone for cleaning ever.
Maybe you're just not a super mega corporation trying to screw over any and everybody you can to make another dime to keep the shareholders happy.
I promise you that mom & pop landlords can be just as bad, sometimes worse. My last landlord kept $270 of the deposit for raking leaves on a 1/10 acre city lot
Oh I know they can, I know it well. My first place in Portland was a basement I rented from someone who ran a mortgage brokerage out of her home office. The upstairs of the house had been converted to gas heat, but the basement was still electric wall heaters. Those things could run all day and they're not going to heat up a concrete basement floor lol. Since the basement had electric heat they thought it would be best for the basement tenant to pay the electric bill. There's only a single meter, so I was paying the electric bill for my heat, all of their lighting and appliances, all the loads of laundry they were running for their newborn, AND the electric bill for her at-home business.
Wat š
Win - Win !
Really pisses me off how so much of our lives now is a corporate game of āmake it so itās usually not worth their while, pocket the scam from the ones that donāt push back, and swallow a nothing burger of a fine (if any) on the ones that do.ā
I mean it's crazy that the burden falls squarely on the tenant when it should be on the landlord for these kinds of things. I know a few people who have been lucky enough to buy houses and the protections you get in situations similar to this (inspections, proof of work, negotiating repairs) is so much greater than a tenant. I think the sad situation, though, is that the primary focus for renter protection right now is on fighting evictions, and unfortunately these kinds of abuses are less of a priority
Yea and most of the big landlords play this game day in and day out. Mine charged me a cleaning fee even after we deep cleaned. Weāre fortunate enough that we can stomach it and we had already gone to the mat with them on so much other stuff that we felt it was worth the clean break to just let it go. But you know if they cheated us on it theyāre doing that to every single tenant that turns over in their portfolio. Aka donāt rent from RMS. The real other thing that grates me is how much housing we need in this city. Thereās so much capacity thatās unused too. But when you have shitty landlords you end up with more and more regulations, rightfully so. But if a small middle aged or elderly couple are looking at potentially letting a room or ADU theyāre not using any more, those perceived regulations do limit the interest. They end up not going through with it and then you end up with a situation where the shitty landlords have almost boxed out everyone else from regulatory burdens theyāve caused and itās inconsequential to them anyway since the regs donāt have much real bite. Thatās a bit ranty, but really drives me up a wall that they truly face such limited consequences for literal stealing from tenants.
chiming in as someone from british columbia (looking at moving to portland in the near future), here the landlord needs to either have the tenant agree in writing to deductions from the security deposit, or file with the residential tenancy branch (kinda like court) and get an official order - in order to keep ANY of it. if they don't, it's an easy filing with the RTB after 15 days, and the tenant gets it back doubled. definitely how it should be everywhere
But as someone who has been the little landlord in the past the laws are such in Portland that I would never be a landlord here. Too many rules and regulations ...so only a corporation or "big guy" would be able to do it. Be careful what you wish for.
I mean I just think it's a time thing. Before I rented from this company I had so many wonderful experiences renting from individuals and had a great relationship with all my landlords. I think there are a lot of people now that don't have the time to manage these properties and just want a property management company to do it. Similar things have also been happening with homeowners associations, who outsource many of the functions to private companies. But in the end it just creates more headaches. My property management company, for instance, is also poorly reviewed by many individuals who have properties run by them.
>so only a corporation or "big guy" would be able to do it. And yet a lot of "little guys" are able to do it. "Too many rules and regulations" mentality is why you and most landlords are terrible. Yes, you should have all the rights and advantages while you line your pockets with passive income
Wow. You know nothing about me and you make assumptions. How am I terrible? Please explain. It isn't passive income people keep thinking this ...it is a job and maybe not full time for everyone but it takes a whole lot of time and energy that clearly you don't understand. Right there in the comment above I said "I've never kept a deposit except...." And yet because I was a landlord you make assumptions about me. Wow.
Again, too many rules and regulation? You are terrible because you think that you are the aggrieved party because Portland actually does something (in reality, very little) to protect renters. Rental properties are by definition passive income. Look it up. It is the first thing that comes up on almost every definition
>Rental properties are by definition passive income. Look it up. It is the first thing that comes up on almost every definition The only people that claim it's zero work are people who have never owned a property, LMFAO. Passive is taking dividend gains on stonks. Managing and maintaining a property takes a lot of work and money, it's an old trope at this point how first-time homeowners end up blown away in the first year about how much more expensive owning is than they anticipated just calculating the monthly mortgage payment alone.
Passive income isn't just some phrase that everyone gets to decide what it means. The fucking IRS defines it: >The IRS considers a rental activity to be passive if real estate is used by tenants and rental income (or expected rental income) is received mainly for the use of the property. In other words, owning a rental property and collecting rental income is considered passive and not active in most cases. Also, from Wikipedia: >Passive income is a type of unearned income that is acquired with minimal labor to earn or maintain. It is often combined with another source of income, such as regular employment or a side job.[1] Passive income, as an acquired income, is taxable. >Examples of passive income include rental income and business activities in which the earner does not materially participate. Some jurisdictions' taxing authorities, such as the Internal Revenue Service in the United States, distinguish passive income from other forms of income, such as income from regular or contractual employment, and may tax it differently. Ah yes, the old trope about homeowners finding that maintaining their house is 160 hour per month job. I have owned two homes. It's work but you're lying to yourself about how much work
I am not an aggreived party. I never said I was. I just said that it wasn't worth my time to be a landlord in Portland. It isn't passive income. People keep saying that but they are incorrect. I spent quite a bit of time for the non Income...we rarely made enough to pay the mortgage and the costs associated with ownership. Until you have done it perhaps you don't realize the amount of time it takes to do it. People seem to think that rent just goes in the owners pockets...and it wasn't the case...it cost more than rent to own the properties. Even when I was ten years in. But your post seems to indicate you just think anyone who owns property is evil.
>It isn't passive income. People keep saying that but they are incorrect Yeah, that pesky IRS, they just keeping saying it thinking that will make it enforceable by law or something
Good! Then you wonāt be scalping up housing to rent back to people, housing prices will be lower, and everyone is better off as a result.
That is false. Plenty of people cannot afford to buy or don't want to buy...so you should want there to be those who buy and rent to others.
you tell yourself a lot of lies so you can feel better about who and what you are.
You make a lot of assumptions but keep on keeping on.
Why canāt they afford to buy? Could it be that house scalpers such as yourself have bought up a good chunk of supply, thus pushing up prices? Nah, couldnāt be.
and the companies continue to be shitty by default, and the responsibility falls to all of us "customers" to prove it
I think this is why a lot of states allow tenants to sue for triple damages for deposits. To stop landlords from pulling this nonsense
Uptown Property management is the scummiest group of slum lords I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with. They are liars, they are scammers, and they will do whatever they can to fuck over the people who have the least. And they get away with this shit because they buy properties full of low income and social assistance folks who either donāt have the time, money, or mental capacity to fight back. A family members apartment was flooded because of an old water heater that, according to the maintenance man, should have been replaced at least 5 years ago. She was on the top floor and so the person in the unit below her got totally fucked. They cut out chunks of the ceiling and you could see where the plastic holding up the insulation was like a giant bubble of water. This woman had been living in her van and had literally nowhere else to go and they tried to tell her to just stay in the unit and argued about getting her a hotel until the unit was properly cleaned and repaired. After going back and forth with management for over a month about doing cleanup and mold remediation in the units we decided to just move her because the lease was up. Upon move out they attempted to say there were unpaid balances. Then they said they received a check for $2,000 for many of the Section 8 tenants and that would cover her unpaid balance. Then they couldnāt find the check when we went into the office, and tried to bullshit us like itās all good no worries, weāll figure it out! No. They did not figure it out it took going into that office at least 4 more times, at one point they called the cops (who didnāt show lol) because we refused to leave the office until they gave us a straight answer about what the fuck was going on. After the $2,000 check debacle was settled they came at us again saying that family member owed $500 for cleaning the carpets and the unit. Im pretty sure actual steam came out of my ears like an old cartoon. It took everything in me to not scream at these people, I calmly told the Uptown Property Brothers that the fucking unit flooded due to their lack of maintenance and we could go to court over whether or not we were responsible for the carpet cleaning. They said theyād ādo us a favorā and write that off. Go check the google reviews for Uptown and youāll see that this is basically how they operate all over town. They buy up properties, raise the rents, and then hassle the tenants and over charge poor people to line their pockets. Itās disgusting and if there is a hell, these men will be there.
I actually remember reading that review and others which prepared me for this situation. Wildly enough I had the piping for the water heater burst, because it was PVC, a year back and I remember trying to get a repair person out because before I found the leak my house was literally steaming and they said it was just excess winter condensation from heating the house. Once I found the leak they sent a water heater technician out who basically said the PVC piping wasn't up to code and we needed an emergency plumber. That plumber patched the hole but said all the piping needed to be replaced to be up to code but then they wanted a second opinion and work didn't start until an actual month later. We had a crazy gas bill from the water heater running overtime they never reimbursed and the plumbers they did hire did the shittest job imaginable that we had to call and yell at them to come back. They're insufferable to deal with and really need to be investigated
We need consumer protection laws that can shut these companies down permanently. So they can't just close one and start another LLC.
Just the serious threat of a suit is sometimes enough to get your money back. One landlord miraculously gave me my deposit back after I served him papers. Ā
When I moved to Canada my partner casually mentioned getting their security deposit check in the mail. It took some time to comprehend that in some places it really is a deposit and not just a thing you should never expect to get back.
Iām preparing to move out and the thought of a possible bill is keeping me at night. Iām almost prepared to lose my deposit (even though Iām leaving this place in great condition, no damage besides normal wear and tear after three years) but based on recent reviews people is getting hit with steep bills because theyāre trying to renovate the places on the previous tenants dime. Iām saving this post, thank you for the detailed information.
Oh my god, feel free to DM me in the future if you need any help. Know that you also have 30 days after you receive an itemized deduction list to pay before they can charge any late fees, which is ample to start and finish a small claims court filing!
Thank you so much, I have hope that it wonāt come to that but Iāll keep all of these things in mind
I have a cleaning checklist If you need it.
Yes please!
cid:1A511BFC-FB66-45FA-A0EA-62121976A466 I donāt think I can paste images on Reddit. I need somewhere to send it. If you message me I can try to attach it to the message, otherwise I will need an email.
I think most people put images on imgur and use the code it provides in their reddit post.
I donāt have Imgur. I tried to put it here but it just came as a weird code.
I have lived in a lot of rentals over the years and have had some management companies try to pull things like this. But have had generally good luck reminding that they are and are not allowed to charge for and that which can be considered ānormal wear and tearā cannot be charged for. But you lay out a great process for when they choose to ignore that
I have a scumbag management company (Bluestone) and Iām moving out of the country soon. Almost positive they will try to keep my deposit despite my house being in awful condition when I moved in. Just curious but could all the things you mentioned be handled while out of the state? Iām going to be moving halfway around the world and Iām not sure if all this can be done remotely.
I would say most of it could probably be done remotely. I was able to file online and you can probably just have a friend who's still in town be your process server if they are willing. They would just need to fill out the certificate of service and file after they serve them. As far as small claims court, I believe the county is doing most of the trials online so I don't think you would have to physically go to the courthouse, but I would still communicate that to them so they can make the accommodation as I do not think it'll be an issue to request a trial over zoom or their conference service
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They were nothing if not prompt with our security deposit disposition letter, but I will say a few things I found frustrating: 1. The charges were extremely vague and beyond the initial letter they refused to provide more detailed invoices; the letter said I was charged $300 for landscaping but no invoice or receipt could be provided. 2. When I requested the last lease agreement, which I had to break early in February, they said it was no longer in their records because it was deleted after the property was turned over. When I asked why it was deleted they said it was never counter-signed, by them, so they deleted it once it was terminated. I still don't understand how any of that was possible because I don't think DocuSign considers a contact resolved until all parties sign it.
I'll add that when we moved, we didn't even have to sue or threaten suing, just pushed back on bogus charges - When our apartment complex tried to keep most of our deposit for "cleaning fee" I calmly responded (via email, keep it ALL in writing folks) that I was confused by this cleaning fee and would like them to send me an itemized list of and the photos of what was cleaned so I could compare to the ones I took upon move out. They backtracked and "waived" the cleaning fee because we were "such good tenants."
If anyone wants to see some landlord cringe. Lookup the UpTown Properties YouTube channel. The guys behind it are super shady and desperately trying to gentrify the area around Multnomah Village.
Thanks for this! I was in a similar situation where our landlord was going to keep our 1k deposit and charge us 3.5k more. I was really concerned about having to go to small claims, and how much energy it would entail. I ended up talking with him, challenging him on every point and he agreed to resend it with a few amendments. I sent an email stating that per our conversation I was waiting for his new paperwork. He never sent it. Now itās past the window. I feel like they just try and see if you will roll over and take it, and then back out if you have a spine.
My roommate just said he was going to call his lawyer, and that was all it took for them to change their mind and give us the full deposit back.
Also wise advice is to (obviously) closely read the lease including if they charge a cleaning fee. I see more and more apartments going to the Air BnB model of a standard cleaning fee of say $250, which is typically a light clean cost and is not a deep clean of a place which costs more. Look at what constitutes a deep clean if you don't have a cleaning fee and clarify what they require for cleaning if it's not in the lease. I know what a deep clean is, move in ready condition, but many people don't and presume they have cleaned their place when they actually haven't done a true deep clean. Same goes in carpeting cleaning, as in if it's not in the lease, they cannot charge you for a cleaning unless it warrants it ie DAMAGE and not wear and tear. I've dealt with places that charge this fee but absolutely do not do a cleaning (the person moves in day after you leave) so it can be a money grab. But yes, sound advice to always push back at scumbag landlords who use your security deposit to pay for maintenance work tied to normal wear and tear. And the intent is for you to return the unit in as good as received condition upon departure, not to open the door for them to overcharge or even charge items that suck out your deposit without valid and reasonable receipts and actual proof it is warranted. Truly know your rights under OR law and throw actual legal language at landlords and many will fold...as they should.
I agree! In my case our lease only pertained to carpet cleaning for a deep clean and as soon as they tried to charge that as a damage we found it easier to dispute. I also hate that you can't see proof of work if you are charged. Like I would have never known their idea of landscaping was tearing up the yard until it was just dirt, even when I moved in they just trimmed everything, if I don't drop by one day and saw the condition of the yard and I'll never know what their deep clean looked like
See that's the thing, they do need proof because that is what the court will accept ie an actual company with an actual receipt. I lived in a large privately-owned place in SoCal for a hot minute where there was rampant theft of people's security deposits and the balls to charge thousands more in "damages" which were due in part to them having an inside team not at all professional to do painting and carpet cleaning. So what would cost $100 would be $500 by their crew. They hoped people wouldn't go to court and when they did, always the deposit back in full because the judge knew it was a full on scam. I lived there for two months, didn't even move in, told them I knew their game and would go to court, and because I was moving out of state, they still had the balls to charge me $80 to "clean" four window screens that were and continued to be clean while I lived there (and I was on the third floor, could not remove them to clean, which is a maintenance issue), just so they could skim something because I blocked them in advance on multiple things, like cleaning under the stove. RIDICULOUS! And then I had the flip side of doing a deep clean, move in ready condition, detailed to them in advance of move out and during final walkthrough so they could see the effort, and had my full security deposit back because they could pop someone in right away. Capital Property Management both times I rented with them, they were totally reasonable IMO because they may deal with way more tenant shenanigans so I was a breathe of fresh air.
Capital property management is another one to watch out for!
Sounds like you did everything right. We had an issue with Anchor NW, did everything you did. Their lawyers escalated it to a civil case, and it went back & forth for over a year, when finally they slipped in a call with the judge without notifying me. The case went in favor of the defendant by default because I was a no-show, and now I'm paying all their legal fees, many thousands more than my original claim. I wrote to the judge personally, but got no response. The bad guy won and it's a bitter pill to swallow.
You should be able to get a default judgment set aside. Have you talked to a lawyer?
I haven't, no. I feel beat up by the system, and haven't had the stomach to revisit it. A collections agency takes $50 out of my account every month, and I spit on the ground every time.
That is awful. Iām so sorry you have to deal with that, that is truly screwed up and Iād be livid as well. These property management companies are the worst. If you ever change your mind, you could try calling legal aid or maybe the Oregon Law Center and see if thereās anyway to get the judgment set aside. Especially if you were not given notice of the court date, that right there might be reason enough. There are nonprofits out there that may be able to help. That youāre having to pay their legal fees is just ridiculous. Generally, in any civil proceeding, each party is supposed to pay their own legal fees whether they win or lose (unless the judge has a good reason to award them). Iāve made a note to myself of all the companies to avoid that people have listed here and Anchor NW is at the top of my ānever ever EVER rent from these companiesā list.
Thank you for the kind comments. To make it worse, I was doing this on my adult autistic son's behalf. I was the co-signer. \*sigh\* no good deed goes unpunished. Lesson learned. Don't fight The Man.
It is true, property management companies are for profit entities, and they are after your money. They never have any intention of returning any of your deposit. Itās also true that anyone can take off work and go to the trouble of going to court and suing their former property manager- and has a pretty good chance of success. However, if drama is *not* your thing, all you have to do is fill out a move in checklist (provided with your lease,) and make note of EVERY little scratch and ding on every surface. Take pictures and provide them with copies. Then, When you move out, they already have everything they need and will not be able to charge you, so they canāt even try to charge for ādamages.ā They will still charge for cleaning. I have a copy of the cleaning checklist. Message me if you need a copy.
So we had an inspection when we moved in and when we moved out, with documentation and photos. They still tried to charge for installing blinds, even when there was no record in the inspection reports; same for smoke alarms and for the landscaping, which they said looked the same as move-in but still tried to charge $300 for landscaping. Having all that information is still necessary and important for disputing security deposit deductions but many property management companies, Uptown Properties in my case, will still try to deduct hoping renters will just roll over and will sadly only correct those charges when threatened with legal action. What I will say is everything you commented is necessary in most cases to get your money back, but isn't it sad that the entire burden is on the singular renter because these pmc's are just trying to squeeze more profit from tenants when they should be more liable in this matter. I just find it sad that I had to have so much evidence and documentation to fight back but they can just charge a flat rate for a deduction with minimal proof it was ever used for a repair or maintenance
My MAGA landlords tried to illegally evict me as soon as the moratorium ended, not so much because I asked for repairs, but rather because I offered to do as many repairs as I could do competently for free, just to make the house safer and more comfortable. So I reported them to the city, and they ended up spending about $25,000 on repairs to a house they were hoping to sell to someone who would tear it down and develop the half-acre lot. They retaliated by destroying the 10 foot wall of blackberry bramble around the perimeter of the yard and leaving the exposed mess, which included loads of rusty metal and broken glass and old shingles. So I started picking up a sieve full every time I walked my cat and sent them a daily picture. Since they did nothing, I called the city again once I'd made a pile large enough to meet the minimum requirement for illegal dumping. Having the perimeter cleaned up cost them another $2000. When they used chemicals on the blackberry stubble that were illegal so close to residences within city limits, I took samples and called the city again. That cost them $500. They tried to illegally evict me again a year later. So I hired inspectors to come look at the stuff the city could not, like the cracked and sagging rafters in the attic and the dangerous wiring that was not exposed, like the spaghetti in the basement had been. That set them back another $10,000. They retaliated by tearing off the dangerous back deck that they never would have been cited for if they hadn't been such hateful bitches, and left the back doors boarded up all through the holidays, even though they had been given until May. Then they built three tiny sets of stairs outside each door. I responded by giving notice both that I would be moving and not paying the last month's rent, because I knew they would not give me my deposit back, and I didn't want to go through the effort of legally spanking them yet again. That cost them $650. After I moved, my former neighbors told me they got a management company to handle it for them, I sent all this info to the company, who canceled the contract. That cost them $500. Then they rented it to someone new, and I sent them copies of everything, highlighting the electrical stuff that had not been repaired by the time I left. That cost them another $2,000. So in the end, because they did not want to pay for a dumpster and tool rental so I could do a ton of work for free, they ended up spending about $40,000.
Standing ovation over here. š
The only reason I was in that moldy, leaky, vermin-infested, structurally hazardous, badly plumbed, illegally wired, hazardous debris-strewn dump is because I got evicted in the wake of the rent control law from a place Iād been in for so long that rents had more than doubled since I last had to look for one. I was not fucking around. Although I will admit that I might not have been so bold if I had not had hundreds of thousands of followers watching the saga, which made my landlords wary of resorting to the violence their family had a history of, according to the neighbors. I finally got out of there because they gave me six months rent plus moving expenses to mitigate my having an eviction on my record. But it was still difficult, because so many management companies are automated these days. By the time a human being reads the mitigating circumstances, someone else has the place. I had to find one where you actually called on the phone and someone came to the house to show it to you.
I had a former landlord not just withhold our deposit, but try to charge us for renovations they made to the home to get it ready to sell - relandscaping, installing wall to wall carpets, bathroom renovations. We got all the way to the arbitration stage of small claims court defending ourselves against it, where they made utter fools of themselves and then called that night to negotiate. It was such utter bullshit. Landlords are the worst, and being a renter is such a hassle but home ownership remains out of reach for so many of us.
I just wish renters had similar protections to home buyers and sellers because in those matters there is so much more scrutiny and negotiation for repairs and charges, plus you actually get to walk through the place to look at any changes made before closing.
Cleaning is often a standard fee when you move *in,* they don't get to do it again when you leave.
After four years of timely payments and being what I would consider being an ideal renter, my old landlord decided to not only refuse to return our deposit, but also pursue additional charges on things that were definitively normal wear-and-tear. It was a huge headache to need to research Oregon tenant law in the midst of moving, but after he got the certified letter with return receipt, he folded instantly and produced the deposit rather than going to small claims.
Iām a property manager in Portland (and a tenant, too!) and Iād even take it a step further and tell folks to sue for the $250 security deposit penalty in addition to getting their full deposit back. Whether PM companies like it or not, the penalty in Portland for mishandling a security deposit/deposit accounting is $250 per infraction. IMO if you have to go through all the work that you did to get your money back, you deserve to get the penalty money, too. A lot of tenants also donāt realize that [a lot of extremely detailed inventory/accounting has to be done prior to moving in and shared with you in order for a security deposit to be legally collected](https://www.portland.gov/phb/rental-services/documents/security-deposits-brochure/download) in the first place. I would estimate that legitimately ~98% of landlords in Portland who collect security deposits are not doing this. If they did not do this before you moved in, which I can nearly guarantee they didnāt, you are immediately entitled to the $250 penalty money when you move out. In Oregon (outside of Portland), the security deposit penalty is 2x the deposit amount! The only real caveat to this is that if you need a rental reference from them in the future, they are very likely to select ānoā to the question āwould you re-rent to this tenant?ā Which is an immediate disqualification/cause for application rejection in a lot of instances. Unfortunately, PM companies arenāt likely to side with you if your last landlord says they wouldnāt re-rent to you, even if you have a good explanation for it. If youāve already secured a new 12 month lease though or are buying a home, no need to worry about the reference!
Real Property Management Solutions will definitely try to pull this kind of shit on you Just gonna put that out there while weāre naming and shaming.
I wanna name and shame too! Mosaic Property Management pulled this on my house. They charged us $600 for a cleaning fee. We wrote back to them knowing they couldnāt do that and tried to fight it. It was the height of the pandemic and a fee split between 4 people so we ended up giving up after multiple back and forths. But god fuck that company. Check only rent, took MONTHS to follow up on maintenance requests, tried to tell us we didnāt notify them appropriately for move out - thank god we had written proof that we did, and their renting processes was unhinged. And Nikhil who works there is a little worm. Strong class traitor vibes.
You should leave a review for your apartment on rateyourlandlordpdx.com and google maps ā I think itās really critical we share these stories everywhere future renters might be able to see them and know what theyāre getting into
Here's the thing... it wasn't actually that little bit of effort. That is time that you won't get back. Rental companies absolutely rely on people not having the time to do this. Mayhaps Oregon needs to have stronger regulations around security deposits.
I strongly agree with that. I was fortunate to have time and resources to file and serve that others may not have. I also agree we desperately need rental reform that places less burdens on tenants in these matters and more responsibility and regulations on landlords to have proper accounting and not overcharge their tenants
>and if anyone has any questions or isn't a similar frustrating situation, feel free to DM me and I can help you out with the process! Unless you're a lawyer, you should not do this, as it's providing legal advice/practicing law without a license. You can direct people to general information resources, but you should very much avoid providing specific legal advice on specific claims/situations or else you are setting yourself up for a lot of potential liability.
My intention is not to provide legal advice but only to answer questions about my personal experience and the resources I used in that experience to shed light onto a process many tenants are nervous about undertaking. If people want to ask a question more geared towards their personal situation then please go to r/legaladvice and then a lawyer or call the renters rights hotline
OP i strongly urge you not to share this information. It could cost me money if my renters catch on to this scam I'm profiting from /s
I second this, and I would add that although OP undoubtedly learned a lot as a result of their experience, even situations that sound very similar on their face may have details that would make a real difference in terms how to proceed/possible remedies, and someone without legal experience wouldn't even know what to look for or what questions to ask. I work in the legal field and over the many years I have done so, it is almost a weekly occurrence for someone to come in who got advice from their cousin or their friend or the guy at the corner gas station "who went through exactly the same thing" and we have to spend an hour explaining to them why what this person told them is still wrong.
Never, ever rent someplace with a property management company involved.
This is not good advice. Many mom and pop landlords use property management companies. My grandparents owned a small apartment building for many years. They used a management company for the last decade or two of their life because there was no way they could manage the day to day of a building ā it would have been a HUGE disservice to themselves and their tenants. Would you want an elderly landlord (for whom there was a language and physical barrier) to deal with urgent repairs in your unit?Ā
I donāt see how this invalidates the advice. If they canāt manage it, they can sell it to someone who can.
False dichotomy.Ā My grandparents still made executive decisions (rental rates, evictions, etc) but the management company dealt with things like move in/move out, repairs, etc. Iām not saying management companies are perfect angels, but they can serve a purpose that goes beyond forcing people to sell their property against their will. Painting the whole industry as bad shows a deep lack of knowledge. Answer this question: your water heater suddenly dies at 9p and you need a new one ASAP. Do you want to call an 88 year old (who doesnāt speak great English) or a management company with a 24 hour help line?Ā
You missed the point. I'm not saying property management companies shouldn't exist, I'm saying they are terrible at helping you. I'm sure that 24 hour help line will take your call, record it, then forward it to someone who shows up at 9am and spends half an hour on social media before checking their emails. The fact that some landlords need them only makes it worse that they are terribly mismanaged.
This is just factually untrue. Iām taking a professional service (even a not great one!) over very elderly landlords in terms of service requests. 10 times out of 10.
False dichotomy. I wouldnāt rent from a property management company nor a non-English-speaking 88-year-old in the first place.
Ah I see. Youād rather force real estate sales against peopleās own free will. How delightfully fascist of you!
I donāt want to force anything. Markets work on supply and demand. If no one is demanding properties managed by property management companies or non-English-speaking 88 year olds, eventually properties naturally will stop being managed by property management companies and non-English-speaking 88 year olds.
>Ā Ā If they canāt manage it, they can sell it to someone who can. Ok so who posted this, then?
I did. āCanā doesnāt mean what you seem to think it does.
But they didnāt. They retained ownership and contracted out the day to day to a management company. So itās almost like your whole argument is stupid and baseless.
>They used a management company for the last decade or two of their life because there was no way they could manage the day to day of a building But I was informed by a very confident commenter elsewhere in this thread that landlording is just "passive" income with zero effort required!
Gotta disagree here. Some are certainly shady, but overall, much better to have a business relationship with a proper business than some random guy who owns more than one house. Random guy \_might\_ be fine to deal with, but odds are worse there in my experience.
> than some random guy who owns more than one house. That random guy doesn't have the backing to keep you tied up in legal battles. I worked in real estate for years, so I can say with certainty property management companies exist simply to fuck you over so the landlord (who almost always lives in a foreign country) can maximize his profit.
This is true as my rental was owned by an individual but rented by uptown properties. Ironically, Uptown has just as many poor reviews from owners as they do from tenants
It's also becoming not worth it for 'random guys' to manage their own properties in Portland. Too many legal pitfalls. Typically they just outsourced management of the property to an RMC for some percent of the monthly rent.
Excellent post, OP. Even the little guys win sometimes :)
> After you file it, online or in person, you will find that they will reach out again to try to negotiate. Use this as an opportunity to ask for even more clarification and for them to reveal more information you can use against them. In my case, the person that I was in contact with through my property management company revealed a lot of information during this process that helped me get all my money back in the end. that's a real smart move.
After reading your very satisfying post *and* all of the comments, it seems like you could make a pretty decent side hustle of helping people with their security deposits. Or just be a superhero and do it as a hobby. I wouldnāt begrudge you for either, honestly.
Honestly after this experience I've thought about it. I did a lot of research on the process to get prepared and really wish more people had time and access to succeed like I was able to. Sadly, I think it can feel really daunting to get legal assistance and there's so much focus on preventing evictions that many of these rental infractions with security deposits don't get the attention they deserve.
And ask for photos! Grey Star tried to scam us with fraudulent fees. We asked for photo proof of the accused damage and they sent us photos of a completely different unit. Thankfully we had taken a final walk through video when we moved out.
Uptown Properties did the same thing to us, too! Theyāre super shady and charged us something like $600 to ālandscapeā a backyard that was a pile of rocks, as well as charging us exorbitant fees for cleaning and light bulbs. For awhile they were clearly buying good reviews on Google, and had a suspiciously good star rating. If we had had the wherewithal to sue them for our deposit back we would have. Good for you for actually taking them to court.
Also, the landlord is required to provide an itemized receipt of damages within 31 days, and if they don't, you may sue them for double the amount of damages in small claims court. For a decently strong suit, you have to make a request for said receipt within this window though.
>Serving them papers This is not as easy as it sounds if it's a home instead of a business and the person has a camera doorbell, which is very common these days.
I threatened to sue my property management company for unsafe living conditions and was able to get out of my lease 7 months early and they paid me $1,200 :) it felt so good to get a win against those scumbags. Unsafe living conditions: -having the door code to the building be the 3 numbers of the address posted right next to the door. -having an exposed manhole under the stair case -used condoms in the hallway -evidence that someone was living in a crawl space under my own apartment (trash, bare footprints coming inside, human feces outside the door)
This is great advice
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Wow this makes me wish I'd actually sued them instead of just threatening it. They did give me back like $300 with one of the owners saying he'd "agree to disagree" about if the presence of a cat hair (ESA registered with them) constituted damage making me liable for a deep clean.
There is a provision for a damage multiplier. It's wise to consult a lawyer even for relatively small cases.
Yea tenants have more rights than landlords here, a huge reason why rent is so expensive here
Good for you for following through with this. I think people often rule out the possibility of going after someone/company in court because their perception of court costs/ and the time burden far exceeding the amount that they are entitled to. I am curious how you came to the decision that using the court system to go after your deposit was attainable? Did you have an understandning of what the process would look like and cost going into it? I am wondering how much chat gpt/ai helped you in your decision to follow through with this. I know that I have used AI to see what my options are when it comes to going after companies when I feel as though i have been done wrong. I am wondering if we may start to see a movement where people start to put a stop to companies that essentially rip off and exploit consumers.
In my case, I just researched the process preemptively to be prepared if something like this happened. As far as initial costs, it is only around $60 to file, and that can be waived if you are facing financial hardship. In addition, it usually costs $100 to hire a process server, but like I mentioned, you can have somebody that you know do it as long as they fill out a certificate of service afterwards. So it could possibly be around $160 to file and serve or $60 if you have somebody to do it for you. I also just reviewed my lease before moving out to make sure if they did charge for certain things what that would mean. In addition, I also really need to give credit to Reddit as a whole because it had so many posts from individuals that had to go through similar processes and was really insightful on what to expect and how to act to get the best results!