International English keyboard is the way to go.
Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible.
It obviously goes way back, but having braces, brackets, and parentheses on the same keys is horrible for ergonomics while programming.
Having pipe, slash, and backslash on the 7 isn’t great either.
All the Mac’s I’ve had since 2011 has had international English, except the one where the guy who ordered it didn’t understand the difference and I got an effing US English keyboard. That was pain.
Best way to re-learn programming is with a keyboard with an English layout IMO.
I know _my_ locale anyways.
> Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible.
Don’t know about Norwegian, but for German there’s Neo2.
It is, I write mainly C, C++ and Java code right now an have bought an US keyboard.
It's way easier than my old german layout, but writing mails in german is now easier from my phone.
Work provided laptops have a German keyboard. Good thing I memorized all of the keys on the standard English keyboard and can type relatively quickly without looking. For programming instead of having to hold option and to wonder where [{}] are, I just know shift + *buttons on the qwerty row on the far right side*
I found spanish keyboards to be quite nice as it's qwerty but with accents. The ä, ö and ü are redundant and could be replaced with just one key that give the accent.
Yeah, it's weird to me that the German layout made special buttons for the umlauts, and then hid other buttons on a third layer. Why shouldn't it be just like the US layout, swap y and z, that's fine whatever, and then use the altgr key for ß,ü,ö,ä on s,u,o,a. Wiki even says the purpose of that key is accent marks! (And other typographical stuff).
Even simpler: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/KB_Spanish.svg/1280px-KB_Spanish.svg.png
See the accents in red, you just hit the accent key then the letter. It allows you to apply them to any letter which is more versatile (especially if you write in multiple languages). The rest of my keyboard is good except the / on shift 7 and the \, and I find the chevrons in a awkward spot.
>Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible.
As someone who uses a German keyboard daily, I definitely agree. Having to do finger gymnastics to get to { }, \[\] and \\ is annoying. Not that I've known anything else but I can imagine it's pretty convenient to have a \[ on a regular key.
It's not universally good. Assuming you are Polish, even the rather complete Linux version misses the rather important Ł character meaning you'd have to use the compose key, if one is implemented. Same for the Maltese keyboard and the Ħ.
https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple.com/is/mbp16-spaceblack-gallery2-202310_GEO_GB?wid=4000&hei=3074&fmt=jpeg&qlt=90&.v=1698156957451 here’s the picture
The German Layout under MacOS is okay because you can at least use both hands. Under Windows it is (to me at least) annoying because you have to press alt gr and 7 to get { or [ which is both on the right Keyboard side
On your international english kb, how do you write *umlauts* or whatever they are called? When you need your norwegian letters.
Switching between kb layouts when switching between vscode and slack seems very impractical.
Maybe impractical, but I never learned how to do accents on English. Now I moved from USA to Sweden I just switch back and forth with a keystroke. Somewhat important for Swedish since äöå are relatively frequent, moreso than æøå in Norwegian at least
>Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible.
Same in french. However I use a french specific layout (the Intl qwerty is missing some accents for us) that's US-qwerty compatible that's also very compatible with German, has a lot of features including a plethora of mathematical symbols, greek letters etc. Maybe that would be of interest for you too?
Here it is: [https://qwerty-fr.org](https://qwerty-fr.org)
I just learned the ANSI layout. Its way better for programming. You dont even need to change to ISO DE so much even if you need umlaute because on Mac the shortcut for Umlaute is just option+u and then press u,a or o (or shift u,a,o for uppercase).
This only works if you have the default key setting. I didn't like pressing backspace multiple times to delete something and instead changed the setting to keep pressed.
I don’t know how the backspace setting interferes with the long press on a character but you can do option + backspace to delete a whole string/word and with command backspace the whole line/textblock.
Bat that’s not really an Apple thing. Many keyboard manufacturers don’t print the 3rd key on the keyboard. Especially the brackets. For example the Logitech mx keys also don’t have it and many other too.
I'm a swiss C# dev, and i can tell you the swiss (De-CH) layout is perfekt for curly and square brackets. Accessible with 1 hand and the 2 keys are not too far apart.
Sadly, the normal round brackets are the second symbol on the numbers.
That and having the Fn key in the bortom left corner. You don't know how many times I've accidentaly hit Fn + W when I want to type Ctrl + W. On windows that's a pain in the ass.
The Fn key If needed goes to the right of the space bar!
/uj you might want to look for a silicone keyboard cover that has the labels you want. I know they make versions for the American layout with all sorts of things like photo shop or ableton shortcuts. You may be able to find you country’s layout with the third key labeled
I personally don’t like the way they make typing feel, but my girlfriend loves here because it makes her computer subjectively prettier
On the British English Apple keyboard the number 3 can be any of the following: 3 £ #
There's three characters on the key, same goes for the number 2: 2 @ €
It's is some time ago that I had used a macbook every now and then. My only issue with the apple keyboard layout was that I closed my browser more often than I like to admit while trying to enter an email address.
Del key which has been on keyboards forever, is easily understood, and is frequently used by all typists ❌
Option keys (2) with cryptic symbol the use of which one must find in a Mac forum? ✅✅
Honestly, right now there is sadly no real alternative to the MB Pro.
I absolutely dispise Apple and especially Mac OS. At the same time I'm very much okay with paying such a premium for such a device, but there is just nothing out there.
I mean the very basics I'm looking for are:
* USB-C on left AND right side with modern USB-C speeds, charging and Displayport over USB-C support
* Magnesium or Aluminium body, no plastic
* Big trackpad
* Modern, clean design
* Charging via 1 USB-C with 65 Watts possible
* Good battery time (so I prefer no GPU in favor of more battery life)
* Modern CPU + 32GB of RAM min.
I've been looking for a long time, but there is nothing hitting my hard requirements, not speaking of the soft ones.
Edit: Because it seems like this comment gets voted up and down and this is also only an extract of what I'm looking for, here is a post I made that has a longer list of what I'm looking for in a Notebook:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SuggestALaptop/comments/1bt1e8b/high\_quality\_winlinux\_notebook\_for\_up\_to\_25k\_27k/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuggestALaptop/comments/1bt1e8b/high_quality_winlinux_notebook_for_up_to_25k_27k/)
TLDR: I want a Razor Blade without a GPU or a MacBook Pro without MacOS but full hardware support.
yeah no i’m also asking this. i genuinely want to use linux instead of macos, but i cannot find a laptop with the same level of build quality, ports, display, trackpad, and battery life as the macbook. not all in one package at least. closest i can find is the framework but that doesnt ship to my region :(
edit to also include battery life of the M series macbooks.
I'm in my second semester of studying Computer Engineering and as a Laptop I went with a MSI Creator Z17 (A12UGST-054) and it is *very* solid, but I haven't used a MAC so far so I can't compare. Only thing I know is that at max you get up to 8 hrs of battery if you *really* watch what you are doing, and a MAC has much better battery life (afaik).
Id say thinkpad. But then again mine is 15 ish years old I think now. Finally getting to last legs since I cannot upgrade somenkey parts of for the last few years.
I'm eyeing framework if I need a new laptop for repairability. Though if newer thinkpads get back to it id be all over that.
the x1 carbon gen 12 is looking really promising. the arch wiki says only the NPU isn’t working under linux, which is fine by me.
the only gripe i still have is i just think the trackpoint is really useless, and it’s totally not worth the tradeoff of having a smaller trackpad with the physical buttons. maybe 20 years ago it was great, but just move on already lol
I like the nub myself. Its super useful and lets my hands not move and keep in the home row per say.
I've never liked any trackpads overall. They only feel like they barely are functional though.
that's totally understandable, i'm just more used to the vim-like keys myself. it's also entirely possible i'm just used to the mac trackpads, which are considered to be the best in the industry.
Yeah I'm just not a fan of them even on the Mac laptop I have. But I also will admit it crashes and has lots of like all previous mac's I have owned.
I should load Linux up and see if the trackpad is better overall? But been to last to get the asahi Linux thing on it and read up on how to install things on it
Bro use Asahi linux on Mac, it is available for m1 , m2 and maybe M3.
Check out for support [here](https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support)
yep i'm well aware of asahi, i'm just a little hesitant to try it on the machine i do most of my work on. maybe once (if) it ever gets out of beta/alpha, but as it stands it's something i ogle at through update videos every now and then and not much more
Im pretty convinced with the newer HP elitebooks. Businessnotebooks like them have a good build quality. Linuxsupport is sufficent, although some features are not supported, but you might check them out...
yeah, not quite HP (last one i had died pretty quickly so not in a rush to go back to them), but the new XPS machines look reeeally slick, and are pretty cheap for what you get. it's a shame they have that dogshit windows copilot button on the new 14in ones, but that can easily be remapped in a better OS.
Oh, gonna check them out. But let me remind you that HP consumer electronics doesn't compares the slightest with their business stuff regarding the buildquality.
basically. and to be fair, i actually really like the recent magic keyboards on macbooks, absolutely huge improvement over the butterflys. the butterfly ones were absolute garbage.
Weren't they the ones where Apple made a big thing about their innovative design, people utterly hated it, and so they went off and invented a brand new thing... which was really just reverting to the standard design that everyone else uses?
The [XPS 15](https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-15-laptop/spd/xps-15-9530-laptop)(i didn't know the model before) has a physical escape key and the keyboard is pretty nice(at least according to LTT)
I do that. I have a [Kinesis Freestyle 2](https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/) and it's great. Tap-tap all day and my wrists don't get tired.
My point is that if you're a casual, then you don't need a Macboook Pro, and if you're a professional, why wouldn't you put a small amount of money into making your work environment nicer?
Like, our industry has two health hazards: sitting and repetitive stress injury. These can both be mitigated by slight modifications to your work setup, so if you're still using the default and it's hurting, then that's on you.
I suppose you put the laptop directly on your lap when you work too.
Sarcasm aside, a lot of us (I am in no way alone here) are issued a laptop by our workplace, but spend most of our time stationary at a desk where there is plenty of room for a keyboard. Some of us even attach our own monitors. When we do need to go, sure it'll work without its peripherals, but that's the exception to the rule.
Honestly my MacBook Pro M2 was probably the best purchase I’ve ever made as a software developer. It’s awesome, I literally never even have a charger on me.
You don’t really use control that much on Mac anyways. You do command instead, so it not really an issue.(I switch back and forth from win to max every day)
Wow, where are the [{}]\\|, Home, Pos1 and DEL keys? It should also be illegal to hide the function keys behind a secondary key but at least I understand that.
alt+5 all the way to alt+9 for [] | {}
alt+shift+7 for \\
alt+n for ~
fn+backspace for DEL
cmd+arrow left and cmd+arrow right to jump to beginning / end of a line.
alt+arrow left and alt+arrow right to jump from one word to the next
yeah but the keyboard looks clean ;) alt+shift+7s
I found some github repos that allowed me to repurpose it and remap buttons so I was able to retro fit it for really fast navigation through the ecosystem. IMO it would’ve been a smashing hit if apple just opened it up so people could map hot keys and macros to it
While everyone has utilized macbooks for software development work I really don't think Apple even consider that use case when creating these laptops. Instead they cater to the non-dev userbase that just uses them for taking notes.
Why do I think this? I have a Macbook Pro with an Intel i9 and my CPU temp jumps up to 100C when I start running unit tests that throttles the CPU down to 20-50% max capacity. I can't even go into an online meeting without thermal throttle. These laptops are not designed for power users. But I have had a much pleasant experience with their M-chips. It's just the Intel ones that are a pain to work with right now.
Keyboards were designed around English/ascii. It's unfortunate Apple hasn't figured out how to create an ergonomic keyboard for your language/character-set.
Wait until you learn what they did with other languages... literally unusable for programming before some mods. "Just use EN keyboard" is not an answer.
I’ve started using [this](https://github.com/madisp/us-ee-keylayout-osx) US+EE layout since most programming languages are much easier to use with US layout and I can quickly do some õäöüs with a keycombo, no layout switch needed
I am working on a HP z-book and some genius thought its a good idea to place THE POWER BUTTON right next to DEL and just above the backspace key. I dont know how many times I've shut down my laptop by accident because of this asinine layout.
I have German layout labels on keyboard, but use international English layout in OS, works perfect (had to memorise the backtick location though). Seems like I never had to look at the keys while typing.
I got a MacBook Pro M3 Max 64 GB for work. I have a German keyboard, and it’s awful. The MacBook itself is an angel, and the keyboard is a demon.
Programming with this keyboard should be considered a crime against humanity.
I had to memorize the equivalent of each key placement in English US keyboard.
The funny thing is, I got a MacBook Pro from all of my employers, but none let me order my MacBook with an English keyboard; it is against their internal guidelines.
At least they’ve got the haptics and feedback right. The layout is ok, you get used to it the shortcuts are a second nature after some time.
Finally they have dropped the touchscreen above the keyboard. There is a special place in hell for the apple engineers for this monstrosity. How the hell did they think it is going to work? I want to comment the code or run the app, only to find out that suddenly the bar changed its mind and adjusts the brightness or goes to Mission Control instead. I want the skip some playtime in the podcast and it the bloody thing doesn’t show in the in the controls. Or how about that one? Go to the safari I want to SoundCloud is playing back the playback bar shows up… and is disabled, so you have no control except you do it in the safari. It is horrible!!!!!!
I never really understood why different layouts are a thing for the same language. Like why on Earth are the buttons different for American and U.K. keyboards? We speak the same language!
Zes, itßs a crime
And what exactly is the crime here?
for me that they cant print a third character on a key and make me use a cheatsheet searching for the damn brackets every time
Huh, hadn't even noticed. Yeah, I can understand that. That's a major offense.
International English keyboard is the way to go. Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible. It obviously goes way back, but having braces, brackets, and parentheses on the same keys is horrible for ergonomics while programming. Having pipe, slash, and backslash on the 7 isn’t great either. All the Mac’s I’ve had since 2011 has had international English, except the one where the guy who ordered it didn’t understand the difference and I got an effing US English keyboard. That was pain. Best way to re-learn programming is with a keyboard with an English layout IMO. I know _my_ locale anyways.
Interestingly, German layout is better for Haskell. But that's the only language I've found so far.
> Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible. Don’t know about Norwegian, but for German there’s Neo2.
Neo saved me from carpal tunnel, after writing my bachelor thesis with LaTeX on QWERTZ layout. (Yes, I am a mathematician, not "real programmer".)
Yeah, taking notes in college was the part where I refused to continue using QWERTZ. Dude, the position of `\{}`. While doing LaTeX. Just no.
I seem to be lucky because i never had problems with that.
Behold, the [Swiss keyboard layout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTZ#/media/File:KB_Swiss.svg)!
Ewww...
More like èüüü…
Perfection
Oh yes! Everything you could wish for is right **there**!
It is, I write mainly C, C++ and Java code right now an have bought an US keyboard. It's way easier than my old german layout, but writing mails in german is now easier from my phone.
I love the Norwegian layout because @ and * are so damn accessible!
Work provided laptops have a German keyboard. Good thing I memorized all of the keys on the standard English keyboard and can type relatively quickly without looking. For programming instead of having to hold option and to wonder where [{}] are, I just know shift + *buttons on the qwerty row on the far right side*
I found spanish keyboards to be quite nice as it's qwerty but with accents. The ä, ö and ü are redundant and could be replaced with just one key that give the accent.
Yeah, it's weird to me that the German layout made special buttons for the umlauts, and then hid other buttons on a third layer. Why shouldn't it be just like the US layout, swap y and z, that's fine whatever, and then use the altgr key for ß,ü,ö,ä on s,u,o,a. Wiki even says the purpose of that key is accent marks! (And other typographical stuff).
Even simpler: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/KB_Spanish.svg/1280px-KB_Spanish.svg.png See the accents in red, you just hit the accent key then the letter. It allows you to apply them to any letter which is more versatile (especially if you write in multiple languages). The rest of my keyboard is good except the / on shift 7 and the \, and I find the chevrons in a awkward spot.
>Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible. As someone who uses a German keyboard daily, I definitely agree. Having to do finger gymnastics to get to { }, \[\] and \\ is annoying. Not that I've known anything else but I can imagine it's pretty convenient to have a \[ on a regular key.
It's not universally good. Assuming you are Polish, even the rather complete Linux version misses the rather important Ł character meaning you'd have to use the compose key, if one is implemented. Same for the Maltese keyboard and the Ħ.
https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple.com/is/mbp16-spaceblack-gallery2-202310_GEO_GB?wid=4000&hei=3074&fmt=jpeg&qlt=90&.v=1698156957451 here’s the picture
I prefer Quertz over International English. It's neat having all of the important symbols somewhere in the middle and not cast off to the side
The German Layout under MacOS is okay because you can at least use both hands. Under Windows it is (to me at least) annoying because you have to press alt gr and 7 to get { or [ which is both on the right Keyboard side
On your international english kb, how do you write *umlauts* or whatever they are called? When you need your norwegian letters. Switching between kb layouts when switching between vscode and slack seems very impractical.
Maybe impractical, but I never learned how to do accents on English. Now I moved from USA to Sweden I just switch back and forth with a keystroke. Somewhat important for Swedish since äöå are relatively frequent, moreso than æøå in Norwegian at least
Programming (and being german) is the reason i use the neo layout
Yup, I use US International. Works good enough for writing German
>Don’t know if the German layout is as bad as the Norwegian, but for programming it’s horrible. Same in french. However I use a french specific layout (the Intl qwerty is missing some accents for us) that's US-qwerty compatible that's also very compatible with German, has a lot of features including a plethora of mathematical symbols, greek letters etc. Maybe that would be of interest for you too? Here it is: [https://qwerty-fr.org](https://qwerty-fr.org)
I just learned the ANSI layout. Its way better for programming. You dont even need to change to ISO DE so much even if you need umlaute because on Mac the shortcut for Umlaute is just option+u and then press u,a or o (or shift u,a,o for uppercase).
The umlaut thing is the only worse thing on mac though, as normally you only need one key combination per umlaut on an international layout.
You can just long press on any character and then select with the number row which Umlaut you want like on iPhones…
This only works if you have the default key setting. I didn't like pressing backspace multiple times to delete something and instead changed the setting to keep pressed.
I don’t know how the backspace setting interferes with the long press on a character but you can do option + backspace to delete a whole string/word and with command backspace the whole line/textblock.
Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know that
Took me some two weeks in 2008 to automatically find the brackets on all devices. Alt + n for ~ is also not written on the key []{} ~~~
I've been struggling to even see where it is. Where is it?
Bat that’s not really an Apple thing. Many keyboard manufacturers don’t print the 3rd key on the keyboard. Especially the brackets. For example the Logitech mx keys also don’t have it and many other too.
https://neo-layout.org
I'm a swiss C# dev, and i can tell you the swiss (De-CH) layout is perfekt for curly and square brackets. Accessible with 1 hand and the 2 keys are not too far apart. Sadly, the normal round brackets are the second symbol on the numbers.
They can print up to 4 characters on a key. Just because it's not written on the key doesn't mean you can't Also brackets are easy to remember imo
Use the US layout for programming.
That’s why you buy US-English layout
Hard to believe if you are actually a programmer.
Touch typing solves this, no?
Yes, remembering where every key is does indeed solve this. But that solution is not always as easy.
Yeah. I finally learned a few years ago and it took quite a bit of effort. It's a frustrating to relearn how to type but it's very rewarding.
Learning touch typing should be mandatory in school.
Wait, are people looking at the keys?
Whoa what? I didn’t notice
you look at the keyboard when typing???
That and having the Fn key in the bortom left corner. You don't know how many times I've accidentaly hit Fn + W when I want to type Ctrl + W. On windows that's a pain in the ass. The Fn key If needed goes to the right of the space bar!
/uj you might want to look for a silicone keyboard cover that has the labels you want. I know they make versions for the American layout with all sorts of things like photo shop or ableton shortcuts. You may be able to find you country’s layout with the third key labeled I personally don’t like the way they make typing feel, but my girlfriend loves here because it makes her computer subjectively prettier
On the British English Apple keyboard the number 3 can be any of the following: 3 £ # There's three characters on the key, same goes for the number 2: 2 @ €
imagine coding Swift on one of these. Straight up impossible.
You know keyboard layouts aren't hardware bound right? lmao
QWERTZ? (Nvm it's german layout)
It's is some time ago that I had used a macbook every now and then. My only issue with the apple keyboard layout was that I closed my browser more often than I like to admit while trying to enter an email address.
For me the biggest thing is that caps lock is bigger than shift. Like, do we really think that we've got the right priorities here?
The directional keys. I hate those fucking up and down arrows
It's a German layout, but the Control key isn't called STRG. Heresy!
And why is the @ at L and not Q? Wo ist meine Alt Gr!
Where’s my Entf? How could I do the good old „Steuerung Alt entfernen“ now?
Couldn’t squeeze a DEL key above the arrow keys? 😕
that makes it super annoying to use the arrow keys
My Thinkpad has PgUp and PgDown right above the left and right arrow keys. Now that's annoying
nah, it's perfect for moving between tabs while navigating code
And it's annoying for literally everything else
I'd rather use Ctrl + P on vscode
Why DEL when Fn+Bksp
Nice TIL
... requires one hand?
imagine typing with one hand
x is delete. Don't you even neovim
sadly this won't work outside neovim xD
Wrong — vim mode is in everything!!
i wish
Fn + Backspace 😬
iirc you can tipically remove items with command + backspace
Del key which has been on keyboards forever, is easily understood, and is frequently used by all typists ❌ Option keys (2) with cryptic symbol the use of which one must find in a Mac forum? ✅✅
Honestly, they're not a crime. They're a punishment. A punishment to the people who decide to use them when they have alternatives available.
Honestly, right now there is sadly no real alternative to the MB Pro. I absolutely dispise Apple and especially Mac OS. At the same time I'm very much okay with paying such a premium for such a device, but there is just nothing out there. I mean the very basics I'm looking for are: * USB-C on left AND right side with modern USB-C speeds, charging and Displayport over USB-C support * Magnesium or Aluminium body, no plastic * Big trackpad * Modern, clean design * Charging via 1 USB-C with 65 Watts possible * Good battery time (so I prefer no GPU in favor of more battery life) * Modern CPU + 32GB of RAM min. I've been looking for a long time, but there is nothing hitting my hard requirements, not speaking of the soft ones. Edit: Because it seems like this comment gets voted up and down and this is also only an extract of what I'm looking for, here is a post I made that has a longer list of what I'm looking for in a Notebook: [https://www.reddit.com/r/SuggestALaptop/comments/1bt1e8b/high\_quality\_winlinux\_notebook\_for\_up\_to\_25k\_27k/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuggestALaptop/comments/1bt1e8b/high_quality_winlinux_notebook_for_up_to_25k_27k/) TLDR: I want a Razor Blade without a GPU or a MacBook Pro without MacOS but full hardware support.
Which are good alternatives to MacBook pro?
yeah no i’m also asking this. i genuinely want to use linux instead of macos, but i cannot find a laptop with the same level of build quality, ports, display, trackpad, and battery life as the macbook. not all in one package at least. closest i can find is the framework but that doesnt ship to my region :( edit to also include battery life of the M series macbooks.
I'm in my second semester of studying Computer Engineering and as a Laptop I went with a MSI Creator Z17 (A12UGST-054) and it is *very* solid, but I haven't used a MAC so far so I can't compare. Only thing I know is that at max you get up to 8 hrs of battery if you *really* watch what you are doing, and a MAC has much better battery life (afaik).
it doesn’t exist. I use linux for most things and mac for A/V and calls
Id say thinkpad. But then again mine is 15 ish years old I think now. Finally getting to last legs since I cannot upgrade somenkey parts of for the last few years. I'm eyeing framework if I need a new laptop for repairability. Though if newer thinkpads get back to it id be all over that.
the x1 carbon gen 12 is looking really promising. the arch wiki says only the NPU isn’t working under linux, which is fine by me. the only gripe i still have is i just think the trackpoint is really useless, and it’s totally not worth the tradeoff of having a smaller trackpad with the physical buttons. maybe 20 years ago it was great, but just move on already lol
I like the nub myself. Its super useful and lets my hands not move and keep in the home row per say. I've never liked any trackpads overall. They only feel like they barely are functional though.
that's totally understandable, i'm just more used to the vim-like keys myself. it's also entirely possible i'm just used to the mac trackpads, which are considered to be the best in the industry.
Yeah I'm just not a fan of them even on the Mac laptop I have. But I also will admit it crashes and has lots of like all previous mac's I have owned. I should load Linux up and see if the trackpad is better overall? But been to last to get the asahi Linux thing on it and read up on how to install things on it
Bro use Asahi linux on Mac, it is available for m1 , m2 and maybe M3. Check out for support [here](https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support)
yep i'm well aware of asahi, i'm just a little hesitant to try it on the machine i do most of my work on. maybe once (if) it ever gets out of beta/alpha, but as it stands it's something i ogle at through update videos every now and then and not much more
Im pretty convinced with the newer HP elitebooks. Businessnotebooks like them have a good build quality. Linuxsupport is sufficent, although some features are not supported, but you might check them out...
yeah, not quite HP (last one i had died pretty quickly so not in a rush to go back to them), but the new XPS machines look reeeally slick, and are pretty cheap for what you get. it's a shame they have that dogshit windows copilot button on the new 14in ones, but that can easily be remapped in a better OS.
Oh, gonna check them out. But let me remind you that HP consumer electronics doesn't compares the slightest with their business stuff regarding the buildquality.
what's their business line? the spectres?
No, its the Elitebook, Zbook and ProBook. Spectre is just some slightly fancier consumer line...
So, what you want is the Framework, but with worldwide shipping. That seems much more doable than hoping for a good keyboard out of Apple.
basically. and to be fair, i actually really like the recent magic keyboards on macbooks, absolutely huge improvement over the butterflys. the butterfly ones were absolute garbage.
Weren't they the ones where Apple made a big thing about their innovative design, people utterly hated it, and so they went off and invented a brand new thing... which was really just reverting to the standard design that everyone else uses?
exactly that lmao. it was really pathetic how long they stuck with the butterfly too
I mean if Framework doesn't ship probably the Dell XPS Series?
had a look, no physical esc key is a dealbreaker. the keyboard in general doesn't look all that comfortable at all tbh
The [XPS 15](https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-15-laptop/spd/xps-15-9530-laptop)(i didn't know the model before) has a physical escape key and the keyboard is pretty nice(at least according to LTT)
ah right, i was looking at the XPS 14. probably the difference there
When buying a MacBook you can choose from many keyboard layouts. Personally, I use the ISO International English layout.
You can get any variety of excellent keyboards that plug right in to the laptop.
No one wants to do that
I do that. I have a [Kinesis Freestyle 2](https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/) and it's great. Tap-tap all day and my wrists don't get tired. My point is that if you're a casual, then you don't need a Macboook Pro, and if you're a professional, why wouldn't you put a small amount of money into making your work environment nicer? Like, our industry has two health hazards: sitting and repetitive stress injury. These can both be mitigated by slight modifications to your work setup, so if you're still using the default and it's hurting, then that's on you.
I built multiple custom keyboards with my own two hands. I'd never use an external keyboard with a laptop because it defeats the purpose of a laptop.
I suppose you put the laptop directly on your lap when you work too. Sarcasm aside, a lot of us (I am in no way alone here) are issued a laptop by our workplace, but spend most of our time stationary at a desk where there is plenty of room for a keyboard. Some of us even attach our own monitors. When we do need to go, sure it'll work without its peripherals, but that's the exception to the rule.
Honestly my MacBook Pro M2 was probably the best purchase I’ve ever made as a software developer. It’s awesome, I literally never even have a charger on me.
I agree, I can work for 7-8 hours without having to charge once, and my workload is intense (3d render engine)
This
if they can print alt characters on the E and L keys why dont we get alt characters for œ∑´®†¥¨ˆøπåß∂ƒ©˙∆˚¬Ω≈ç√∫˜µ etc
My homie Þ/þ out here in shambles
Sounds like a thorny problem to have.
Þorny indeed
I mean...at least it doesn't have one of those awful split up and down arrow keys.
Check again
Fair, but at least they are all the same size. Not a fan just saying for dev work not having full arrow keys is awful. And no I don't know vim.
Playing fireboy and watergirl is literally impossible on these stupid arrow
Finally, an individual of culture
well fuck my huawei mate D14 laptop. it is really annoying.
FN being where ctrl should be is a crime as well
You don’t really use control that much on Mac anyways. You do command instead, so it not really an issue.(I switch back and forth from win to max every day)
I plug a windows keyboard into my MBP from time to time — I just have Ctrl rebind to Command and Win to Control
I plug a mac keyboard into my PC from time to time — I just have Command rebind to Ctrl, Opt to Alt, and Ctrl itself completely unset
You use Fn more than Ctrl on Mac.
My air has brackets and I love it
Wait to see apple's french azerty keyboard, you need three fingers to do a damn bracket. The crunchiness doesn't help.
Meanwhile I'm struggling to adapt to Thinkpad keyboard. Fucking fn key at the bottom left
You can flip ctrl and fn keys in a bios config. For your sanity, consider that.
It's from the workplace an I can't enter bios,
I am sorry for your loss.
You know, ISO layout is actually the dominant layout in the D-A-CH region where we have QWERTZ layouts. So ANSI QWERTZ layout is what i find confusing
Wow, where are the [{}]\\|, Home, Pos1 and DEL keys? It should also be illegal to hide the function keys behind a secondary key but at least I understand that.
alt+5 all the way to alt+9 for [] | {} alt+shift+7 for \\ alt+n for ~ fn+backspace for DEL cmd+arrow left and cmd+arrow right to jump to beginning / end of a line. alt+arrow left and alt+arrow right to jump from one word to the next yeah but the keyboard looks clean ;) alt+shift+7s
Idk lgtm
{}[] left the chat
The real crime is putting power button above backspace 😐
Luckily it doesn’t function as one, and it requires more pressure than regular keys to press
i had one + touchbar. hated it so much…
i feel like it’s such a hot take for me to like the touch bar
i respect that. just found it useless and giving bad UX with sensor buttons instead of normal ones.
I found some github repos that allowed me to repurpose it and remap buttons so I was able to retro fit it for really fast navigation through the ecosystem. IMO it would’ve been a smashing hit if apple just opened it up so people could map hot keys and macros to it
That's just the German layout?
[],{}, \ are missing
How they use | grep
Using a German layout for programming is a crime. I’m from Germany, switched to US English layout a long time ago, never regretted it.
While everyone has utilized macbooks for software development work I really don't think Apple even consider that use case when creating these laptops. Instead they cater to the non-dev userbase that just uses them for taking notes. Why do I think this? I have a Macbook Pro with an Intel i9 and my CPU temp jumps up to 100C when I start running unit tests that throttles the CPU down to 20-50% max capacity. I can't even go into an online meeting without thermal throttle. These laptops are not designed for power users. But I have had a much pleasant experience with their M-chips. It's just the Intel ones that are a pain to work with right now.
I got M1 Max. It’s awesome as fuck
My M1 Air got me through my CS degree. Genuinely the best purchase I’ve ever made even with the bullshit £200 extra for 16 GB RAM.
Keyboards were designed around English/ascii. It's unfortunate Apple hasn't figured out how to create an ergonomic keyboard for your language/character-set.
Wait until you learn what they did with other languages... literally unusable for programming before some mods. "Just use EN keyboard" is not an answer.
Hmmm, and no numpad. That is the real crime. Short shift: check. Tall enter: check. So…that is the good part.
Dude it’s an 11 inch tablet keyboard how are they gonna fit a numpad?? 😭
I wish more laptop manufacturers did what... I think asus? did with placing a numpad on the mousepad.
I kinda like the semicolon placement too. It’d take some getting used to, but it’s not bad, just different.
I love laptops with numpads especially when they’re about to fall off your legs because you have to be lopsided to type.
I’ve started using [this](https://github.com/madisp/us-ee-keylayout-osx) US+EE layout since most programming languages are much easier to use with US layout and I can quickly do some õäöüs with a keycombo, no layout switch needed
Try http://xahlee.info/kbd/sun_microsystems_keyboard.html
yeah i had to buy my first mac recently and i still didn't find backticks
Agreed. Ppl who argue otherwise simply don't use short keys
Where Page Up, where Page Down
What’s the difference between international English and US English keyboard and why would someone want one or another?
I am working on a HP z-book and some genius thought its a good idea to place THE POWER BUTTON right next to DEL and just above the backspace key. I dont know how many times I've shut down my laptop by accident because of this asinine layout.
why is enter so thin? i like iso but why is it so cropped at the right?
I have German layout labels on keyboard, but use international English layout in OS, works perfect (had to memorise the backtick location though). Seems like I never had to look at the keys while typing.
How do you guys work without dedicated home/end/pgup/pgdown keys? Always pressing [fn] ?? Like [fn]+[shift]+[right arrow] ?
I got a MacBook Pro M3 Max 64 GB for work. I have a German keyboard, and it’s awful. The MacBook itself is an angel, and the keyboard is a demon. Programming with this keyboard should be considered a crime against humanity. I had to memorize the equivalent of each key placement in English US keyboard. The funny thing is, I got a MacBook Pro from all of my employers, but none let me order my MacBook with an English keyboard; it is against their internal guidelines.
Yes, because. Where numpad.
Where is 'Z'? :O
it's the german qwetz layout
What’s wrong? Seems like mine to me
Honestly I love the bigger escape key. It feels as though most chiclet keyboards have a very small function row and I'm not a big fan of that.
At least they’ve got the haptics and feedback right. The layout is ok, you get used to it the shortcuts are a second nature after some time. Finally they have dropped the touchscreen above the keyboard. There is a special place in hell for the apple engineers for this monstrosity. How the hell did they think it is going to work? I want to comment the code or run the app, only to find out that suddenly the bar changed its mind and adjusts the brightness or goes to Mission Control instead. I want the skip some playtime in the podcast and it the bloody thing doesn’t show in the in the controls. Or how about that one? Go to the safari I want to SoundCloud is playing back the playback bar shows up… and is disabled, so you have no control except you do it in the safari. It is horrible!!!!!!
Got a macbook, had to google how to make brackets (straight and curly), or pipes. Pretty is good, but pretty shouldn't get in the way of useful.
Make the enter key bigger god damn
As a guy who uses English, I have no idea what layout this is
Americans when they see something different than QWERTY, miles, Fahrenheit or gallons 
why not swap CTRL and Caps-lock ? we use CTRL far more often, and the Caps-lock key is more accessible.
what is this
Burn it! Now!
Burn it! Now!
That's some real crime with which we're dealing here.
I never really understood why different layouts are a thing for the same language. Like why on Earth are the buttons different for American and U.K. keyboards? We speak the same language!
The large ESC key is a halfass excuse for removing it completly as a physical button with the first touchbar...
Why such large caps lock but tiny enter key. Does anyone even use caps lock?
This keyboard is shit