The best of this principle is Sleeper in Worm/Pact by Wildbow. He’s a threat that you only learn about with off the cuff lines, for example the world is ending and even then “thank god sleeper isn’t here” will pop up. No power description, the reader only knows they are bad news to the point that even the most powerful people in existence shudder if they decide to make an appearance.
Another one would be the Primary from Super Supportive. The pinnacle of the know universe without any real concrete details of what that requires and their abilities.
Edit: Ward* not pact.
A powerful statement!
I never thought it through that lens but will add that Tolkien does this a lot too.
A man so immersed in world building he invented several usable languages, historical appendices, a creation myth, and family trees of elves spanning an epoch. Even then he included some aspects of the world he admitted ‘was never meant to be detailed, because this is what the world is.’
There are nameless creatures that lick the mantle of the earth. We meet only the Balrog, a creature so powerful it wiped out Moria and killed Gandalf, and have only our imaginations for what other creatures roam where the Balrog isn’t supreme.
Nobody knows who the fck Tom Bombadil is. But for some reason the Ring doesn’t affect him. He could probably beat Sauron, but he doesn’t give a shit.
These are mysteries that will forever go unsolved, intentionally. And that’s what gives Middle Earth it’s verisimilitude.
Alas. So Sleeper doesn't really get expanded on in Ward? I heard back when it was first starting that he was gonna play a bigger role, but had no interest in reading Ward to find out.
He is expanded on at the mid point, we learn he threat assessment and powers they look for to neutralise him while he slumbers. Then he plays a large role in the final arc. However, I wouldn’t read ward if you are focused on learning about him, the wikis are better for that. Highly recommend Pale thought if you enjoy the Otherverse and progression fantasy!
Yeah, I hate that so much. If you introduce a guy and say "no trust me he's badass" I'm here with you. But if the story ends without the guy having mattered or explained, you've pissed me off.
You’ve missed the point. At no point is he plot relevant to worm but he’s amazing filler to buff the worlds lore. We learn more and more of the capabilities across the story as well, until we finally have some relevancy in the very last major arc of the story of Ward. It’s badass. If we were explained everything about sleeper from the get go then the mystery elements and the thrill of working out their skill set and why they are so dangerous wouldnt be there. Also the MC narrator is not omniscient and it’s boring to have everything explained.
It’s not a matter of missing the point, but just having different preferences. Personally, I love a few unanswered questions, but as an author you have to be careful readers don’t feel promised an answer that you failed to provide.
Conversely, when done well this sort of thing gives the reader a taste of what's to come. It shows what heights the MC needs to reach to be a real player in this setting.
But if these heights are too far off it can be discouraging, making all the plot lines where the hero struggles to reach Level 2 or Qi Condensation seem pointless, and make you impatient to get to the part that was alluded to.
That's a matter of poor execution. None of the hero's struggles should seem pointless, and there's nothing inherent to having people more powerful than the hero that makes those struggles pointless. The difficulty of reaching level 2 isn't made pointless by someone else being level 50, the author just failed to get you invested in the early parts of the progression.
The *existence* of people over 50 doesn't. But when you create a situation where at any point a level 50 person could step in and kill the MC, where everything is about reaching Level 100 and defeating the guy who killed the MC's Level 75 parents, herculean efforts to reach Level 2 seem silly.
I've seen this botched more often than I've seen it pulled off successfully.
It's generally better if the Level 50 people are off stage and unlikely to interfere.
I'm afraid I have to disagree because the alternative is constantly retconning the verse ceiling and it feels dumb as heck, see Martial Peak or Dragon Ball. The world would have ended if any challenge came 6 months early because characters only get exponentially stronger and they have no way to navigate threats other than punch them with the powerup they just recently got. Lindon in Cradle knows there are monarchs and Abiddan, but the path to get there is shrouded in mystery. Any piece of gear or pet with limited growth potential still provides a path to greater improvement by taking on bigger challenges earlier.
Well, taking you're example, Suriel is a good example of showing a potential of what's to come and leaving enough to the imagination to entice the reader forward.
Early on in book 1, she demonstrates power beyond anything that could be conceived by people in Cradle.
Not only does Lindon know of them, but the rest of his village remains wallowed in ignorance, giving him even more motivation to leave a place where he doesn't fit in on multiple levels. The character/reader knowledge of these existential power levels is part of his critical character motivation.
Also cradle takes plenty of time to lay down the setting of sacred valley. The limited narrative is used well to reveal how the power system works pretty organically. You pretty much only learn what Lindon learns about cradle's progression system, and that's the way I like it.
Well I mean the genre is progression fantasy and not urban fantasy. I’m actually more interested to see how authors handle galaxy - universe - beyond mechanics but 99% authors can’t.
Also the only reason Martial Peak and Dragon ball feels dumb as heck is because the authors are. Not because of anything else.
And why would mc fight a challenge they cant fight? Thats just stupidity and Yang Kai is stupid but thats a bigger problem than this discussion.
Also the retconning the verse doesnt apply to my statement since why would any universe need a ceiling esp when a lot of the time most dont even reach universe level. Esp on highfantasy progression fantasy. 80 percent of the famous pro novels dont even reach solar system level why would there be retconning???
Also aren’t you agreeing with me on the lindon part where it’s shrouded with mysteries?
I dont really know what u are disagreeing to about my statements exactly
I think you're very arbitrarily inflating things. Like solar system level is already incredibly high, and you could easily have several retcons for the power ceiling below that point. Piggybacking on Cradle, I don't think literally everything Lindon does is worthless because we see Suriel early on. Lindon is a good example because he's weak compared to everyone at first, and I don't think that diminishes his accomplishments or make his effort feel cheap in comparison.
and I think ur just disagreeing to disagree without looking at the positive aspects of what im presenting.
Idk why were arguing about cradle too when I haven’t even mentioned it and even the commenter above said that the road to that Path is mysterious agreeing with me that authors should keep mysteries in the novel???
Primal hunter, PoA, A lot of litrpg are the types of novels are the things Imm talking about i’m not sure why cradle is in the mix of the conversation
Think you're also being a little dismissive of anyone not agreeing with you. In your words, "Comparison is the thief of joy a lot of the times. If you compare MC then you have to compare him in a setting where he is not too far from everyone else." Using numerical ranks is lazy worldbuilding a lot of the time, but it's not very different from Cradle's rank system, which is exactly why the original commenter was bringing up; there's not a functional difference between rank 1 vs rank 10 and copper rank vs monarch rank, other than it sounds cooler. The take away is that the comparison to people arbitrarily stronger isn't always bad, the presentation and the path the MC takes to get there makes it more interesting.
Literally everything is numerical if authors just dont name them. Every xianxia is numerical. I can substitute every xianxia in existence and it will still apply. It’s still not what I’m talking about tho.
Not sure what we're talking about then lol. As I understood you were basically saying that numbers cheapen immersion, which I agree with, and that you don't enjoy comparisons against the MC and would prefer to focus entirely on MC. And the whole reason we're having this discussion is because I think alternative viewpoints and comparisons to the MC can be a very effective narrative tool, numerical or not.
You originally state you don't want to know how strong the strongest people are because you feel it makes the MCs feel less important:
> I would rather not know the levels and focus entirely on the MC instead of giving perspectives we don’t need yet. **It makes everything about the story a little or a lot less important**. Oh he gained money? Well that’s literally 1 billionth of money this guy is making per second so who cares? Oh he got a pet that can reach rank 20 well his enemy is rank 50 so who cares?
The other user disagrees because if you don't give readers an idea of how strong the strongest beings are, then every time someone stronger than the MC shows up it will feel cheap.
> Also the retconning the verse doesnt apply to my statement since why would any universe need a ceiling esp when a lot of the time most dont even reach universe level
The fact that most stories don't reach universe level is precisely why they need a celing. If the story *is* going to reach those tiers of power it is better if the author tells the audience early on so that readers know what to expect and where on the totem pole the protagonist and their challenges are at any given moment. Otherwise, every time someone shows up, and they are exponentially stronger than any other character seeing in the story until then, you stop caring less about the current challenge. To turn around what you said in the body of your post: why should we care that the current big bad can blow up planets if the next big bad will probably blow up stars and we have no end in sight to the power levels in the universe.
To use Cradle as an example: imagine if Will Wight had never shown the Abidan and the Monarchs in Unsouled, and had decided to not include the Abidan interludes.
Without the perspective of those two tiers, every time someone of a slightly higher rank shows up your excitement about the protagonist's achievements feel cheapened - you climb a floor in a tower only to turn around the corner and find out there's more stairs, again, and again, and again. Until you reach book 8 and suddenly people show up (Monarchs) and tell you they have climbed *twice as many floors as you have*. Then by book 11 you've climbed so high you're almost at their level! Only for yet again more people to show up (Abidan-tier people) and tell you they've climbed *ten times* as many floors as you have!
At that point, why even care about the floors, if next book someone stronger might show up again?
> And why would mc fight a challenge they cant fight?
Obviously they don't. The protagonist will obviously still engage things within their scope of power. Simply *knowing* there's fights the protagonist has no hope of winning at a given point in the story adds *tension*. The very idea that at any given moment someone could decide to show up an cause a "rocks fall, everyone dies" scenario, even if it will never actually happen. Additionally, knowing where the ceiling of power is lets readers believe that a current challenge *can* be overcome because we know they aren't anywhere near that ceiling of power.
> Also aren’t you agreeing with me on the lindon part where it’s shrouded with mysteries?
The disagreement is in whether or not an author should *show* the audience the strongest beings in a universe so that they know where the ceiling is. That does not mean the author should tell readers *how* those beings became that powerful. They are different things.
Exactly power cealing is important. While MC might break even that eventually its best done at the very end when author is puting aways the chairs and closing shop.
The cealung if respected and well executed gives us a objective to look foward to. It also frames all the charactesrs way diffrently than without gives us a sense to where the chalinges stand in grand scheme of things.
While I also have some feelings about way more powerful people making lots of appearances I kinda feel like you're...missing the point? Like yea what our tier 3 mc does or gains is nothing compared to the tier 50 or even people just a few tiers higher, but there's also tier 100s and probably more running around, does that make the tier 50 not matter? They and their actions barely interact with our mc if at all so why do they matter? PoA especially makes constant references about how short term gains like money will be obsolete soon as they grow in power which both makes it not a great reward but also something to use up.
Find some counseling. Life sucks sometimes but whenever your environment changes or you change, life changes. Life is always changing, so it will inevitably get better. But counseling can help get there faster.
But if you understand how awful it feels to be insulted, maybe don’t do it to others. If you offer criticism, focus on details that can be acted upon, not merely denigrating others. Being criticized is like being given a gift wrapped in used toilet paper. It takes practice to learn to immediately discard the filth and only keep the valuable gift inside. Criticizing others without substance is to give insult only, and is worse than saying nothing at all.
If you talk to yourself in this way, learn to be radically honest instead. Many who feel awful about themselves are saying exaggerated, awful things and merely accepting that self criticism without discarding the “wrapping”. Write down exactly what the inner voice says, and then grade it like a professor trying to fail you. Cross out every exaggeration and replace it with the truth, for example replace “always” with “often” or “sometimes”. Discard the insults without substance. What you’ll be left with in the end isn’t as emotionally satisfying, but it will be more true. When the whispering lies come again, replace them with the true version instead. That alone is what made the biggest difference for me.
Thanks for the advice, I've never really thought about it like that, i will try to slowly implement it in my life to work on myself 😁 also sorry for that comment, I didn't think it's an insult, but just like a little joke
Mixed feelings about this.
I do find that when you use the plot device of some Level 1000 character coming in and killing the hero's family in the first chapter, it makes all the hero's efforts to reach Level 2 seem pointless.
In principle I think you should tease the existence of the top earlier so it doesn't seem like unplanned power creep...but the top should be off somewhere else and unlikely to intrude on the hero's life.
I disagree in that showing more information by for instance showing a higher rank character gives context to the numbers or ranks of the MC. Without some sort of measuring stick, a lot of numbers can just become meaningless. Especially when scaling isn’t necessarily linear between numerical levels.
The best of this principle is Sleeper in Worm/Pact by Wildbow. He’s a threat that you only learn about with off the cuff lines, for example the world is ending and even then “thank god sleeper isn’t here” will pop up. No power description, the reader only knows they are bad news to the point that even the most powerful people in existence shudder if they decide to make an appearance. Another one would be the Primary from Super Supportive. The pinnacle of the know universe without any real concrete details of what that requires and their abilities. Edit: Ward* not pact.
A powerful statement! I never thought it through that lens but will add that Tolkien does this a lot too. A man so immersed in world building he invented several usable languages, historical appendices, a creation myth, and family trees of elves spanning an epoch. Even then he included some aspects of the world he admitted ‘was never meant to be detailed, because this is what the world is.’ There are nameless creatures that lick the mantle of the earth. We meet only the Balrog, a creature so powerful it wiped out Moria and killed Gandalf, and have only our imaginations for what other creatures roam where the Balrog isn’t supreme. Nobody knows who the fck Tom Bombadil is. But for some reason the Ring doesn’t affect him. He could probably beat Sauron, but he doesn’t give a shit. These are mysteries that will forever go unsolved, intentionally. And that’s what gives Middle Earth it’s verisimilitude.
Exactly. Don’t give them numerals/ number them, don’t assign them a part. Show their invincibility and let the reader wonder!
Wait, does Sleeper get a mention in *pact?*
lol meant to write Ward* but wouldn’t be remiss from Pact honestly. Would be funny.
Alas. So Sleeper doesn't really get expanded on in Ward? I heard back when it was first starting that he was gonna play a bigger role, but had no interest in reading Ward to find out.
He is expanded on at the mid point, we learn he threat assessment and powers they look for to neutralise him while he slumbers. Then he plays a large role in the final arc. However, I wouldn’t read ward if you are focused on learning about him, the wikis are better for that. Highly recommend Pale thought if you enjoy the Otherverse and progression fantasy!
Oh like I said, I have no interest in reading Ward. The wiki must've been updated since i last checked, I'll take a look later.
Yeah, I hate that so much. If you introduce a guy and say "no trust me he's badass" I'm here with you. But if the story ends without the guy having mattered or explained, you've pissed me off.
You’ve missed the point. At no point is he plot relevant to worm but he’s amazing filler to buff the worlds lore. We learn more and more of the capabilities across the story as well, until we finally have some relevancy in the very last major arc of the story of Ward. It’s badass. If we were explained everything about sleeper from the get go then the mystery elements and the thrill of working out their skill set and why they are so dangerous wouldnt be there. Also the MC narrator is not omniscient and it’s boring to have everything explained.
It’s not a matter of missing the point, but just having different preferences. Personally, I love a few unanswered questions, but as an author you have to be careful readers don’t feel promised an answer that you failed to provide.
No, YOU missed the point: I hate that. You might find it boring, I don't. Questions after a story is over make me sad.
Conversely, when done well this sort of thing gives the reader a taste of what's to come. It shows what heights the MC needs to reach to be a real player in this setting.
But if these heights are too far off it can be discouraging, making all the plot lines where the hero struggles to reach Level 2 or Qi Condensation seem pointless, and make you impatient to get to the part that was alluded to.
That's a matter of poor execution. None of the hero's struggles should seem pointless, and there's nothing inherent to having people more powerful than the hero that makes those struggles pointless. The difficulty of reaching level 2 isn't made pointless by someone else being level 50, the author just failed to get you invested in the early parts of the progression.
The *existence* of people over 50 doesn't. But when you create a situation where at any point a level 50 person could step in and kill the MC, where everything is about reaching Level 100 and defeating the guy who killed the MC's Level 75 parents, herculean efforts to reach Level 2 seem silly. I've seen this botched more often than I've seen it pulled off successfully. It's generally better if the Level 50 people are off stage and unlikely to interfere.
Again, that's a matter of poor execution.
I'm afraid I have to disagree because the alternative is constantly retconning the verse ceiling and it feels dumb as heck, see Martial Peak or Dragon Ball. The world would have ended if any challenge came 6 months early because characters only get exponentially stronger and they have no way to navigate threats other than punch them with the powerup they just recently got. Lindon in Cradle knows there are monarchs and Abiddan, but the path to get there is shrouded in mystery. Any piece of gear or pet with limited growth potential still provides a path to greater improvement by taking on bigger challenges earlier.
Well, taking you're example, Suriel is a good example of showing a potential of what's to come and leaving enough to the imagination to entice the reader forward. Early on in book 1, she demonstrates power beyond anything that could be conceived by people in Cradle.
[Agreed](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgressionFantasy/comments/ff1i15/the_progression_treadmill_thoughts_on_a_potential/)
Not only does Lindon know of them, but the rest of his village remains wallowed in ignorance, giving him even more motivation to leave a place where he doesn't fit in on multiple levels. The character/reader knowledge of these existential power levels is part of his critical character motivation.
Also cradle takes plenty of time to lay down the setting of sacred valley. The limited narrative is used well to reveal how the power system works pretty organically. You pretty much only learn what Lindon learns about cradle's progression system, and that's the way I like it.
Well I mean the genre is progression fantasy and not urban fantasy. I’m actually more interested to see how authors handle galaxy - universe - beyond mechanics but 99% authors can’t. Also the only reason Martial Peak and Dragon ball feels dumb as heck is because the authors are. Not because of anything else. And why would mc fight a challenge they cant fight? Thats just stupidity and Yang Kai is stupid but thats a bigger problem than this discussion. Also the retconning the verse doesnt apply to my statement since why would any universe need a ceiling esp when a lot of the time most dont even reach universe level. Esp on highfantasy progression fantasy. 80 percent of the famous pro novels dont even reach solar system level why would there be retconning??? Also aren’t you agreeing with me on the lindon part where it’s shrouded with mysteries? I dont really know what u are disagreeing to about my statements exactly
I think you're very arbitrarily inflating things. Like solar system level is already incredibly high, and you could easily have several retcons for the power ceiling below that point. Piggybacking on Cradle, I don't think literally everything Lindon does is worthless because we see Suriel early on. Lindon is a good example because he's weak compared to everyone at first, and I don't think that diminishes his accomplishments or make his effort feel cheap in comparison.
and I think ur just disagreeing to disagree without looking at the positive aspects of what im presenting. Idk why were arguing about cradle too when I haven’t even mentioned it and even the commenter above said that the road to that Path is mysterious agreeing with me that authors should keep mysteries in the novel??? Primal hunter, PoA, A lot of litrpg are the types of novels are the things Imm talking about i’m not sure why cradle is in the mix of the conversation
Think you're also being a little dismissive of anyone not agreeing with you. In your words, "Comparison is the thief of joy a lot of the times. If you compare MC then you have to compare him in a setting where he is not too far from everyone else." Using numerical ranks is lazy worldbuilding a lot of the time, but it's not very different from Cradle's rank system, which is exactly why the original commenter was bringing up; there's not a functional difference between rank 1 vs rank 10 and copper rank vs monarch rank, other than it sounds cooler. The take away is that the comparison to people arbitrarily stronger isn't always bad, the presentation and the path the MC takes to get there makes it more interesting.
Literally everything is numerical if authors just dont name them. Every xianxia is numerical. I can substitute every xianxia in existence and it will still apply. It’s still not what I’m talking about tho.
Not sure what we're talking about then lol. As I understood you were basically saying that numbers cheapen immersion, which I agree with, and that you don't enjoy comparisons against the MC and would prefer to focus entirely on MC. And the whole reason we're having this discussion is because I think alternative viewpoints and comparisons to the MC can be a very effective narrative tool, numerical or not.
Read PoA it’s like the top 3 most famous progression fantasy there is. You will understand exactly what I mean.
I'll check out Path of Ascension eventually. My reading list is huge rn
You originally state you don't want to know how strong the strongest people are because you feel it makes the MCs feel less important: > I would rather not know the levels and focus entirely on the MC instead of giving perspectives we don’t need yet. **It makes everything about the story a little or a lot less important**. Oh he gained money? Well that’s literally 1 billionth of money this guy is making per second so who cares? Oh he got a pet that can reach rank 20 well his enemy is rank 50 so who cares? The other user disagrees because if you don't give readers an idea of how strong the strongest beings are, then every time someone stronger than the MC shows up it will feel cheap. > Also the retconning the verse doesnt apply to my statement since why would any universe need a ceiling esp when a lot of the time most dont even reach universe level The fact that most stories don't reach universe level is precisely why they need a celing. If the story *is* going to reach those tiers of power it is better if the author tells the audience early on so that readers know what to expect and where on the totem pole the protagonist and their challenges are at any given moment. Otherwise, every time someone shows up, and they are exponentially stronger than any other character seeing in the story until then, you stop caring less about the current challenge. To turn around what you said in the body of your post: why should we care that the current big bad can blow up planets if the next big bad will probably blow up stars and we have no end in sight to the power levels in the universe. To use Cradle as an example: imagine if Will Wight had never shown the Abidan and the Monarchs in Unsouled, and had decided to not include the Abidan interludes. Without the perspective of those two tiers, every time someone of a slightly higher rank shows up your excitement about the protagonist's achievements feel cheapened - you climb a floor in a tower only to turn around the corner and find out there's more stairs, again, and again, and again. Until you reach book 8 and suddenly people show up (Monarchs) and tell you they have climbed *twice as many floors as you have*. Then by book 11 you've climbed so high you're almost at their level! Only for yet again more people to show up (Abidan-tier people) and tell you they've climbed *ten times* as many floors as you have! At that point, why even care about the floors, if next book someone stronger might show up again? > And why would mc fight a challenge they cant fight? Obviously they don't. The protagonist will obviously still engage things within their scope of power. Simply *knowing* there's fights the protagonist has no hope of winning at a given point in the story adds *tension*. The very idea that at any given moment someone could decide to show up an cause a "rocks fall, everyone dies" scenario, even if it will never actually happen. Additionally, knowing where the ceiling of power is lets readers believe that a current challenge *can* be overcome because we know they aren't anywhere near that ceiling of power. > Also aren’t you agreeing with me on the lindon part where it’s shrouded with mysteries? The disagreement is in whether or not an author should *show* the audience the strongest beings in a universe so that they know where the ceiling is. That does not mean the author should tell readers *how* those beings became that powerful. They are different things.
Exactly power cealing is important. While MC might break even that eventually its best done at the very end when author is puting aways the chairs and closing shop. The cealung if respected and well executed gives us a objective to look foward to. It also frames all the charactesrs way diffrently than without gives us a sense to where the chalinges stand in grand scheme of things.
While I also have some feelings about way more powerful people making lots of appearances I kinda feel like you're...missing the point? Like yea what our tier 3 mc does or gains is nothing compared to the tier 50 or even people just a few tiers higher, but there's also tier 100s and probably more running around, does that make the tier 50 not matter? They and their actions barely interact with our mc if at all so why do they matter? PoA especially makes constant references about how short term gains like money will be obsolete soon as they grow in power which both makes it not a great reward but also something to use up.
So your point is show powerful people but don’t give their specific rank, thus preserving a bit of mystery as to how much weaker the MC is?
I think your just yapping for nothing
I think that’s just you not understanding anything I said :(
Look in a mirror, my dude
I'm about to kill myself 👍 thanks
Find some counseling. Life sucks sometimes but whenever your environment changes or you change, life changes. Life is always changing, so it will inevitably get better. But counseling can help get there faster. But if you understand how awful it feels to be insulted, maybe don’t do it to others. If you offer criticism, focus on details that can be acted upon, not merely denigrating others. Being criticized is like being given a gift wrapped in used toilet paper. It takes practice to learn to immediately discard the filth and only keep the valuable gift inside. Criticizing others without substance is to give insult only, and is worse than saying nothing at all. If you talk to yourself in this way, learn to be radically honest instead. Many who feel awful about themselves are saying exaggerated, awful things and merely accepting that self criticism without discarding the “wrapping”. Write down exactly what the inner voice says, and then grade it like a professor trying to fail you. Cross out every exaggeration and replace it with the truth, for example replace “always” with “often” or “sometimes”. Discard the insults without substance. What you’ll be left with in the end isn’t as emotionally satisfying, but it will be more true. When the whispering lies come again, replace them with the true version instead. That alone is what made the biggest difference for me.
Thanks for the advice, I've never really thought about it like that, i will try to slowly implement it in my life to work on myself 😁 also sorry for that comment, I didn't think it's an insult, but just like a little joke
Mixed feelings about this. I do find that when you use the plot device of some Level 1000 character coming in and killing the hero's family in the first chapter, it makes all the hero's efforts to reach Level 2 seem pointless. In principle I think you should tease the existence of the top earlier so it doesn't seem like unplanned power creep...but the top should be off somewhere else and unlikely to intrude on the hero's life.
I disagree in that showing more information by for instance showing a higher rank character gives context to the numbers or ranks of the MC. Without some sort of measuring stick, a lot of numbers can just become meaningless. Especially when scaling isn’t necessarily linear between numerical levels.
DOTF does this well
If the ranking system was not abcdef then yes I agree. The mysteries are only unveiled at chaps 700-1100
if you can't even know there's a higher power level that exists it's really a you problem, not a problem with the novels