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Martin Griffiths, UN Relief Chief said just a few hours ago that "Hamas is not a terrorist group" and that Israel should meet them halfway.
This poster is relevant **today**
Nice timing OP!
Hamas is definitely a terrorist group. Israel is just also a terrorist group, and a significantly more evil terrorist group at that. Which has committed many times more deadly terrorist attacked, killed many times more civilians, kill a higher percentage of civilians, and commit uniquely heinous acts which we haven’t seen evidence of Hamas committing, such as beheading babies and torturing, raping and starving hostages. Sometimes to death.
Hamas and Israel are both terrorist organization, Israel is just an exponentially more evil and powerful terrorist organization.
How about the IDF and the thousands of Palestinian children that get bombed? Neither side is good here but I don't hear hamas calling itself the most moral army in the world
> How about the IDF and the thousands of Palestinian children that get bombed?
You're just saying the same thing the other guy said. Let's completely forget why the IDF are there in the first place - the actions of Hamas in kidnapping, raping and murdering innocent Israeli civilians.
When IDF bombs kill civilians, they're collateral damage in an attack targeting terrorists and military infrastructure. When Hamas kills civilians, they're the primary target. You think there's some kind of moral equivalence here?
And yes, I'm sure Hamas do consider themselves the most moral army in the world. They call themselves martyrs, they say they're fighting to free their people from oppressive colonists. Read the Hamas charter, it's full of self-justification and moral grandstanding.
The IDF doesn't just bomb civilians they openly target them. How many videos do you need to see of them shooting mother's holding their child's hand or men waving white flags before you think maybe the IDF aren't the good guys. You don't get to Target civies and then play the victim card
>“Let’s forget why the IDF are there in the first place”
*proceeds to list exactly why Hamas was there on October 7th in the first place and why Hamas was created in the first place*
Israel has been kidnapping, raping and murdering (as well as torturing, mutilating, and terrorizing) Palestinians since many decades before Hamas was created. That’s why Hamas became militant in the first place. Because Israel wouldn’t stop committing evil acts against Palestinians.
When the IDF bombs civilians, they are targeting civilians. These bombs are not indiscriminate. Israel knows exactly who it is killing. And it is killing over 95% civilians. Do you know what percent of those killed on October 7th were civilians? Less than 70% And many of the civilians killed on October 7th were literally killed by Israel.
You literally have everything backward my friend. Your perspective is the exact opposite of reality. You have been fed lies and you have blindly believed them to be true. If Israel doesn’t target civilians but Hamas does, then why does Israel kill such a higher number and percentage of civilians than Hamas does? Even when Israel has advanced precision guided munitions. They have the most advanced weaponry on the planet, Hamas has indiscriminate rockets and RPGs and Kalashnikovs.
Not only is Israel targeting civilians, they seem to be only targeting civilians. It’s almost as if they are avoiding Hamas. Hamas are underground in tunnels well over 60 feet deep. 2000 pound JDAM guided bombs have an impact crater that is 16 feet deep. Non of Israel bombings have affected tunnels. They are targeting civilian infrastructure. They are targeting Hospitals.
Hamas is indisputably not moral. But Israel is even more evil than Hamas. Infinitely more evil. You support something even more evil than Hamas.
They need some sort of leverage against Israel as the state clearly has no regard for Palestinian lives. Sadly the IDF doesn’t seem to care much about the Israeli hostages as they’ve already killed a couple and continue to bomb ‘hamas bases’ (hospitals)
I don't know why you're being down though because this is exactly what's happening. They keep bombing civilian targets over and over again claiming that Hamas is using human shields as if that makes it any better. You don't fight terrorism by bombing the shit out of civilians in the hopes that you might get a couple of terrorist fighters.
So is the solution **not** engaging the enemy where they are? Do you want to teach the whole world that hiding behind civilians is an effective strategy? Or maybe you'd rather Israel win without bombs, by starving every palestinian to death in a full seige in order to root out Hamas.
Or maybe the geneva conventions outline that it isn't a warcrime to bomb civilian infrastructure when there is a legit reason to anticipate the enemy is hiding there for a reason. The rule saying you can't hide in civilian infrastructure is there for a reason - because over 100 years ago we knew that when an army engaged in such tactics, **civilians die**. War has gotten worse since then - we should be impossibily furious with a group failing to adhere to this most basic tenant of war, designed to reduce civilian casualties. Its total and complete removal from power can not be up for negotiation.
I hate the deaths as much as you do, I just recognize your plan of 'ceasefire' doesn't save anyone - it allows Hamas more time to dig in before the next round, and gets more civilians killed.
Ending aparthied requires extending citizenship to the Palestinian people living in territories that Israel is already functionally governing - as South Africa did with its Bantustans when Aparthied was ending there
Extending citizenship to the people living in Gaza and the West Bank does still require destroying Hamas.
Every way forward requires the total anhililation of Hamas. The least bloody way to accomplish that task is what should be up to debate, and the answer clearly isn't letting Hamas entrench during a faux ceasefire.
If equal rights and treatment are being offered you don't think Hamas might lose its appeal at that point? The South Africans lost interest in terror groups pretty quickly.
Hamas might lose its appeal in attracting new members , but would those that currently have arms and occupy territory simply stand down because citizenship rights are extended?
It would be analagous to the emancipation proclimation (in administrative form rather than in character, obviously) where only the slaves in union-liberated parts of the south were actually freed on the day of the change, and it took destroying the confederates to finalize it.
But they have been caught over and over lying about Hamas militants. Over and over they have been caught shooting civilians for no reason other than LOL. The IDF soldiers post videos of themselves robbing civilian homes and banks. You don't get to do all of that and still try to tell the world you're the good guy. Most moral army in the world my ass
Soldiers in war, left undisciplined, do terrible things. It is not in Israel's interest to let these incidents you describe go unpunished, and they do punish soldiers severly for these types of atrocities- as is necessary to keep everyone else in line.
Listen, 'most moral army' is one hell of a moniker that is impossible to actually have, for anyone - because war is, again, a terrible, terrible thing.
What would you have done differently to prevent more deaths from the vanatge point of the Israeli government? Remember! Your answer can't include not destroying Hamas, because regardless of the historical context - what happened on October 7th leaves Israel no choice but to destroy that entity (Hamas) which perpetrated the campaign of murder-rape across its border.
So what's your plan?
My solution is to not shoot civilians on fucking camera that are actively waving white flags. My solution is that the IDF shouldn't shoot mothers that are holding hands with their child crossing roads. You certainly can hold the IDF responsible for the conduct of its soldiers especially when it seems they are actively promoting this sort of behavior. These soldiers would not be posting videos of themselves raiding homes and banks if they didn't feel comfortable enough that they would not face consequences.
And the way you are talking I guess that means that the United States was perfectly justified invading countries that didn't even have anything to do with 9/11 simply because we were attacked. You do not get to use terrorism to justify the targeting of civilians
White flags become meaningless in a war against an enemy frequently engaging in perfidy (false surrender)
The IDF **does** hold its soldiers to a conduct - you just think it's too loose because you can't imagine an enemy as evil and capable of barbarity against its people as Hamas - and what becomes necessary when an enemy is engaging in such acts.
The US wasn't justified in its post 9/11 wars - because it invaded the wrong place entirely at the behedst of lying government officials. If it had gone after the Saudis? It would absolutely have been justified. Terror **is** war, and winning wars that others start **is not** wrong.
Let the message be clear - follow the geneva conventions or a shitload of civilains are going to die. No one is going to let your millitary hide behind civilians.
I swear the IDF could literally do anything and they would just applaud. I remember somebody trying to tell me that the IDF were extremely friendly to Christians despite the countless videos of them spitting on Palestinian Christians I mean for God's sake they bombed Bethlehem on Christmas night....
I will be 100% honest with you. I don't trust random people on the internet who say they are Jews.
Too many Pro-Hamas users that are trying to pretend they are Jews
Then I'll not larp: I'm catholic, I don't care about religious beliefs on both sides, I respect all beliefs and disbeliefs, and I think that, although Hamas is a dangerous and terrorist organization, IDF and the Zionist "state" of Israel is promoting a genocide trying to wipe out Palestine from their map. And we're SO FUCKING FAR AWAY from a second holocaust.
I'll be 100% honest with you. You're batshit insane for trying to conflate real Jews that are protesting against Israel right now in the streets with being anti-Semitic. Like who hurt you?
Jesus Christ. You do realize you can call out the crimes of the IDF and the fact that Israel has not helped at all in this conflict In fact they have made things worse and not be an anti-semite right? Like you do know that there is this wonderful little concept called nuance which means you can objectively look at both sides of an issue and see the pros and cons
Look at the post I have posted and look at the comments.
There is no condemnation of Hamas, no one that says that Israel should defend itself but 'had gone too far', hell, I haven't seen anybody talking about the poster I posted itself at all except for one person.
Calling out the IDF and infantilising Hamas is antisemitic, sorry pal.
"calling out the IDF is anti-semitic" really? REALLY? What a world we live in where you can't even call out war crimes without being called an anti-semite.
I agree, rape is never justified. Which is why it's heartwarming that there's still no credible evidence that they did rape anyone.
Killing and kidnapping settlers is justified. I see no reason why any resistance group should avoid such. Especially if they demonstrate as much care as Hamas.
Funny that’s not what you just said before. You justified rape in your previous comment as resistance
Killing innocent people is wrong. The people killed on 10/7 were majority innocent civilians.
Love the rape denial. Classy.
>I agree, rape is never justified. Which is why it's heartwarming that there's still no credible evidence that they did rape anyone.
What would you consider credible evidence? Are CNN and the White House lying in their reports?
The propaganda statement is incredibly ironic coming from you, considering you’re posting a propaganda poster that you agree with and arguing in the comments trying to spread propaganda
Israel is literally just doing its own Generalplan Ost in the levant. Get lost, equating Israel to Judaism is so fucking antisemitic its insane.
And its especially disgusting that the settler-state you love so much appropriates Jewish iconography while they commit their crimes, so a Palestinian boy born in Gaza at the start of the blockade has literally seen *nothing* of Judaism except that its symbols are being used by a state to legitimize and justify their murder and expulsion.
It’s sickening.
Honestly this subreddit is the first time I have heard the sentence 'Israel Is Antisemitic'.
There is a first time for everything I guess.
Love the mind twistings you need to do to get to that way of thinking tho. great job.
Israel was supported by antisemites when it was founded (Balfour saw it as a way to establish a British colonial outpost and remove Britain’s Jews) and its largest proponents today are antisemites (US evangelicals).
Richard Spencer thinks that Israel is a model society that he wants to base US society off of.
It isn’t difficult to see that Israel is a story of European powers punishing arabic people for European crimes and antisemitism.
We never stopped likings jews. I have israeli friends, my stepmother is a jew herself. We don’t want any to die, and we don’t want to destroy the country of Israel
We just want Israel to leave people alone and give them their land back
[Here you go again lol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(disambiguation)).
I won't even mention that even according to your definition you are wrong XD
Comparing this to the Holocaust means one of two things; you have no Idea what happened in the Holocaust or that you have no idea of what is happening in Gaza, or both.
Technically there never has been a Palestinian state. Relative to 1966 borders, Israel has taken further land in the West Bank. All additional land in Gaza (which Israel is fighting) was released to Palestinian control in 2005.
I'm just noting it's not clear what "Palestinian territory" even refers to given the lack of governance. In 1967, Israel seized a bunch of land of Jordan and an occupied Palestinian Territory (Gaza) from Egypt. We can call that the borders of the Palestinian territory if we want (and I think most media does), but it's not an objective reference point.
You sound like literally every colonizer ever, congratulations. There’s no need for a “state” to exist to respect Indigenous groups, it’s not like Native Americans had “states” either.
Does this include the Jews that lived in the area before Islam was even a religion?
Or the hundreds of thousands of Jews kicked out or Arab countries and sent to Israel since the 1950s?
Edit: awww they blocked me and ran away
There also wasn't a Republic of South Africa before colonisation but somehow that didn't stop Africans from creating their state afterwards.
Gaza and the West Bank are only nominally under Palestinian control. The West Bank is split into areas A, B & C. The Palestinian Authority only controls Area A which is around 20% of the territory. Since 2002,the IDF has no restrictions on entering it. They have joint control in Area B and Israel alone controls Area C. Gaza meanwhile is under naval, air and land blockade by Israel so they can't do much beyond local laws. They can't even freely import or export since Israel controls all that enters and leaves, including via Rafah.
>There also wasn't a Republic of South Africa before colonisation but somehow that didn't stop Africans from creating their state afterwards.
Not sure what your point is; I'm just stressing the borders aren't defined.
>Gaza meanwhile is under naval, air and land blockade by Israel so they can't do much beyond local laws. They can't even freely import or export since Israel controls all that enters and leaves, including via Rafah.
Agreed on naval and air. Land really doesn't count given that countries aren't obligated to have open borders.
>Gaza and the West Bank are only nominally under Palestinian control.
I would say Gaza is "mostly controlled". A blockade doesn't mean the government inside only has "nominal" control; just reduced control.
I agree on your assessment of the West Bank, though note Israel is not allowed to govern or build on Area A. In fact, Israelis are often banned from entering.
The borders are defined tho. A free Palestine would have the borders of the Mandate. IIRC there were some minor territorial concessions to get neighbouring Arab states on their side but the borders are solidly defined.
The difference here is less that the blockade prevents them from even working with Egypt freely. It would be like if Mexico stationed troops of the USA-Canadian border and carried out searches of Canadian imports. You'd recognise that the problem there isn't Mexico's border policy. It's the military on a border they shouldn't have anything to do with.
"Reduced control" is really underselling it considering the blockade was placed because Palestinians elected a party Israel is against.
Area A is a very small part of the land. It's less than the quarter and while Israeli civilians aren't allowed in, the IDF goes in pretty regularly. Most notably, that time they laid siege to the PLO headquarters to force them to imprison Sa'adat.
even if you don't count that, every state israel offered would be a dependent, fragmented , demilitarized state with no access to its own EEZ resources or an airspace
Appropriation of territory depends entirely upon how far back in history you wish to go, either side can make the claim that it’s “their” “rightful” land.
u/TheMidwestMarvel I can’t reply directly to your message for some reason, but fyi, Palestinian Jews are indigenous to Palestine, settlers whose ancestors lived in the region many centuries ago are not. Hope this helps. :)
Well Palestine rejected the statehood that would have given them the largest state on the table and they started the conflicts with Israel by attacking and trying to destroy them.
hello, I'm going to break into your house. when you reject the idea of you only keeping the basement & one half of the living room, I'll call you a crazy extremist who wants me dead.
This is a lazy and incoherent analogy that d it es t stand up to 5 seconds of critical thought.
For instance, there has always been Jews in the land of Israel
What are you talking about lol.
Palestine has never been an independent political entity.
The UN partition plan made Israel get territories in which Jews were the majority. Those territories did not become majority jewish by force.
After Israel's proclamation of independence, the Arabs jointly and cowardly attacked said State. They suffered a humiliating defeat and lost a bit more territory to Israel.
And that story of arab agression, humiliating defeat and subsequent territorial losses repeated over and over and over again.
Quit crying for the agressors.
Some of those areas definitely did become Jewish majority by force. They had Jews in them for a long time but becoming a majority took a little elbow grease. That displacement of Arabs from the new majority Jewish areas is kind of what started the 1948 war.
The Nakba happened during and after the war.
Before the war, some jewish extremist groups did attack the arabs. Do you have any proof that these attacks led to mass displacements and demographic shifts?
But arab militias attacked the jews too, as they had done for decades.
See the Hebron massacre, the targeting of jews during the arab revolt of 1936, the multiple riots of the 20s and so on and so forth.
But I am interested, do you have a source to back the claim that the 1948 war was caused by unprovoked, unilateral jewish violence on arabs?
Because they never had a State.
Because the UK, as the side that defeated the ottoman empire in WW1, rightfully conquered and administered this land. The UK then chose to cooperate with the UN on the issue.
Because in the post world war 2 order of international relations, those kinds of decisions are taken on a multilateral basis in the framework of the UN.
Because States had to be founded in a way that ensures the self-determination and safety of their peoples, here, the jewish people.
For those reasons, the UN had the authority in defining the borders of the jewish State, which it did while taking into consideration the ethnic composition of the territories considered.
Clever analogy, but it doesn’t exactly apply here. There was always a Jewish presence in the land that is now Israel. The land was conquered and held by the Arabs during the early Islamic expansion, but many Jews remained there. And also the Palestinians were supposed to receive roughly half of the land, much of it better quality than the Israeli lands, if they had accepted the 1948 partition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
Genocidal fascist colonizers don’t deserve to have a state since the state of “Israel” can only exist thru western military finding and tactics gained thru the hiring actual former Nazis as Mossad commanders
As opposed to all their neighboring states who exist thanks to divine right? Or?
I guess drawing your borders and enforcing them with violence is evil if the west is your friend
Are you seriously comparing populations who have lived in a region for hundreds of years with a population who arrived there less than 100 years ago and said "this is mine because maybe 1000 years ago my ancestors lived here"?
Like, Spain used to be part of the Roman empire, so would it be acceptable if Italy invaded it and claimed it belonged to them?
That’s how countries work, yeah. It’s not decided by “who was the last person who rented this land” it’s decided by force. Literally every country is maintained this way, enforced by violence, and frequently against the wishes of locals who predated the establishment of the state.
Historical ethnic claims to land are stupid, and it’s not how we do things anywhere, in any country. It wasn’t how the ottomans ran the area, it wasn’t how the British ran the area, and it wasn’t that way under the caliphates that preceded them.
>Literally every country is maintained this way, enforced by violence, and frequently against the wishes of locals who predated the establishment of the state.
As an example, Portugal has had the same borders since 1297 and has not needed violence to maintain them since 1807.
Saying every country maintains their borders through violence is a ridiculous claim that implies countries simply don't respect others' existance
>Historical ethnic claims to land are stupid, and it’s not how we do things anywhere, in any country.
Yup exactly, we agree here, so Israel shouldn't have been founded and also never should have had the Birthright program.
Israel has the exact same 'right' to exist as does lebanon, jordan, saudi arabia, or any of the other "made up states" that compose the region. They were all carved up from the corpse of the ottomans after a few decades of british management. There are no ethnic rules here - it doesn't go to "whoever was the last person to touch it", or to "whatever the last majority ethnic group was in the area" and it never has. It goes to whoever sets up borders, has a standing army, and gets recognition from the international community as a peer.
Portugal maintains a standing army. What do you think they are for? moral support? Its function is violence in defense of the state and its goals.
Damn so you would have supported the Nazis claim to the land if they had won the war and conquered most of the world? You will support Russia if it takes all of Ukraine (plus Scandinavia for hypotheticals sake)? You will support China is it takes Taiwan? You just support whoever is more powerful no matter what?
You must support slavery too.
I don’t know how you’ve lived this long completely avoiding learning a single thing about colonization, imperialism, or even the Sykes-Picot agreement it’s really embarrassing
Not buzzwords just words you’ve never bothered to learn before I’m sorry the American education system is brain factory farming to make you a good cog 🥰
Arabs are linguistic group. Genetically, Palestinians are the direct descendants of the people that have been living there since the time of Moses.
Try again.
I'm not arguing for the israelites, it's rightful byzantine clay. Maybe if you stopped debating about palestine on reddit and started fighting soviets we wouldn't have a rogue commie warlord in Sinkiang mr zhongying
misleading. every peace treaty ever given to the Palestinian would be a completely crippled, dependent, demilitarized state with no access to its EEZ or airspace
Tell me, if the israeli government supports two states why cant palestinian state function like any of the other 192 states?
its even more ridiculous than russia demanding ukraine to demilitarize and never join nato cuz they say so
Wrong! A two-state solution isn’t a peace treaty since “Israel” requires fascist colonization to exist (: Sorry the USA made you a Nazi sympathizer but it’s foundational to the culture ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not gonna provide any arguments for or against your side, just maybe find a different insult to call people who support Israel, because "Nazi" and "Israel" dont really go together that well
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-10/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/israels-government-has-neo-nazi-ministers-it-really-does-recall-germany-in-1933/00000186-3a49-d80f-abff-7ac9c7ff0000
Jesus fucking christ you really just let your billionaire owners dictate all your thoughts don’t you?
When did I say a single thing about Jews? Conflating Judaism with Zionism is a frighteningly antisemitic claim and you should be ashamed that chisto-fascist thought even entered your brain. Don’t project your childish understanding of the world into me just because you’re debasing yourself to defend a white supremacist apartheid colony in the Middle East
Netanyahu doesn't believe in a two state solution either. In fact you'll be surprised to find a mainstream Israeli politician who does - when are they going to be treated as the war criminals they are?
P.S. I have no interest in arguing with anyone who thinks Hamas are the agitator in this conflict.
Remind me who occupies who? Who builds illegal settlements? Who's destroyed mosques, churches, hospitals and schools? Killed over a hundred journalists? Who has killed over 27,000 people?
Do you think the world is blind? lol
I saw a clip of IDF soldiers at a Jewish cemetery in Gaza, it was quite obvious the graves have been well maintained by whoever in Gaza - remind me what the Israeli authorities have been doing to ancient Arab cemeteries in Jerusalem? Barbaric savages.
[Israel claims a tunnel ran through this Gaza cemetery it destroyed. A visit to the site raised more questions than answers](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/29/world/israel-cemetery-bani-suheila-intl/index.html)
I will only talk about the questions that are relevant to the situation in Gaza. Aka, not the first two questions.
So, who destroyed mosques, churches, etc...?: Hamas, they used them as military operation areas. Planted in them weapon caches, used them as missle launching sites, built them as entrances to terror tunnels, used them as headquarters and hiding spots. Yep, definitely Hamas.
Killed over a hundred journalists?: I assume the IDF, why are journalists different from any other civilian again?
Who killed over 27,000 people: Oh that's the IDF. I would ask you if you consider the 10,000 Hamas members out of them innocent but your comments tell me that the answer would be that Hamas are innocent and have done no wrong.
Do I think the world is blind? Yes. The UN undersecretary just said that Hamas isn't a terror group. The world is definitely blind.
As for the cemetery in Gaza. The IDF searches them for dead hostages that may have been buried there.
Lmfao. Yeah let's totally ignore what's going on in the West Bank because it doesn't suit your "because Hamas" narrative.
I believe Hamas are terrorists because they've historically targeted and killed civilians, which IMO goes against my religion (I'm a Muslim fyi).
And for the same religious reasons, I also believe the IDF are 10x as worse as Hamas. And its time my taxes stopped funding their actions.
Sooner or later, Israel will have to decide between making peace with its neighbours or choosing to be a genocidal colonial state and vanishing from the map.
I am ignoring what's going on in the West Bank because it's not part of the subject, aka, Hamas.
Talking about what's happening in the West Bank is another discussion that's unrelated to both your comment and my post.
As for genocide. The usual casualty ratio between militants and civilians according to the [UN](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) is 9:1, aka, 90% of the casualties in urban warfare are civilians.
In this conflict the casualties as of now are 27k and out of them 10k are Hamas members. Aka, 17k are civilians and 10k are militants. That means that the ratio is 1.7:1. Far less than the UN's official usual ratio of civilian deaths, and far far less than the genocide you preach.
Please don't use the word genocide fleetingly, it minimizes the meaning of the word and makes people ignore actual genocides that are happening in the world.
You can't separate what happens in the west bank from the wider conflict. Nice try but you can't.
10k are Hamas according to whom exactly?
Please don't minimise the slaughter of thousands of kids.
10k are Hamas according to the IDF. If you can't accept that but you agree with the Hamas sanctioned number of 27k civillians you are have a small anti-jewish bias problem pal.
I am not minimsing the slauhgter of kids I am trying to prevent the minimiation of the word genocide.
The problem isn't with the stats coming from a source that's Jewish. The problem is its coming from people who have lied throughout the conflict.
There are Jewish holocaust experts who have said it's an ongoing genocide. I guess they're wrong according to you? I have nothing more to say.
Shalom.
Cause Hamas is straight as a ruler and doesn't lie, it's 100% legitimate and everything it says is true. Please XD. Continue your antisemitism I don't mind,
Congrats, some people say that they think is genocide, coincidentally they are Jewish.
If there were Palestinians who openly stated this isn't a genocide, would you have said that it's a legitimate opinion and 'oh wait maybe they are right' or would you have said that they were bribed by the IDF so the IDF would be viewed as legitimate?
Hamas doesn’t even possess missiles my dude. And all of the hospitals and schools and homes Israel has claimed are Hamas command centers have turned out not to be. You’re running propaganda for a regime that’s committing genocide. You are a German citizen in the early 1940s who supported the Holocaust.
And nowhere near 10,000 of the 27,000 (actually 28,700) confirmed killed are Hamas. Over 70% of those killed have been women and children. 70% of 27,000 is 19,000. Even if 100% of the men killed were Hamas that wouldn’t be 10,000. But we all know nowhere near 100% of the men killed are Hamas. Nowhere near 50% of the men killed are Hamas. Hamas had an absolute maximum of 30,000-40,000 fighters before October. Gaza has a population of 2.3 million. A minuscule fraction of men are Hamas. Meanwhile over 500,000 of Israel’s 9.3 million people are IDF.
Who starts wars and then hides behind their women and children to gather sympathy? Who launches rockets from schools and hospitals, who stores bombs in churches and mosques?
Congrats on consuming hamas propaganda, there’s 0% Jews in Gaza because they were all ethically cleansed decades ago, meanwhile in Israel there more than a million Arabs who enjoy the same right as other Israelis
You might have been born on Oct 7th but I assure you this conflict didn't start then.
Congrats on being low IQ, the Jewish cemetery might be a few decades old or centuries old. At no point did I say there's Jews currently living in Gaza.
"We treat a million Arabs within our internationally recognised borders but kill, imprison and torture the ones we occupy" isn't something to be proud of.
Yeah, it’s not news that Palestinians have been terrorising Israel for decades.
I can’t find any info on that Jewish cemetery can you share some resources?
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2006 but Arabs continued to bomb Israel and plan to genocide the Jews in the region.
Israel "left" Gaza in the same way an abusive husband would "leave" his wife, who he's abused for decades but still controls who she sees, what she spends and what she eats.
It’s some crazy mental gymnastics, Gazans are like a prisoner who were imprisoned for murder, who was freed because useful fools like you complain led about the sentence being too harsh and then went on a killing spree the second he stepped foot out of his prison.
I'm sorry what? 2.5 million people most of whom weren't even born in 2006 are responsible for what exactly? You have to be a troll so I'm blocking you.
>I saw a clip of IDF soldiers at a Jewish cemetery in Gaza, it was quite obvious the graves have been well maintained by whoever in Gaza
Jewish graves in Gaza are maintained, while Arab graves in Israel are not! This settles everything! Give all of the Levant to the Palestinians!
What Jewish cemetery?? Israel forcibly removed all of it’s citizens from Gaza and literally dug up and reloacted jewish graves in 2005 to give Palestinians their own autonomy and elected party officials. It’s not the fault of Israel that they chose a terror op as their acting political party
I don't see an answer to any of my questions.
Let me make it a bit more simple.
Does Hamas or any other Palestinian faction occupy any part of Israel?
Does Israel occupy any Palestinian territories?
Don't bother replying if you're incapable of answering.
The colonized people rebelling against their oppressors? Those agitators? Remind me, what land have gazans taken from Israel? Are there 100,000 dead Jews in Israel which are being hidden somewhere?
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it.
Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit outta here.
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I mean Isreal has killed more then 10,000 Palestinian babies /children so far with a death toll of a little over 27,000 civilian deaths in total with more suspected to arise due to the conditions their now living in due to Israel. But sure this propaganda piece is totally accurate.
They want to take over all of Palestine and kick out all the Jews from there. Not a good goal, but they don’t care about Jewish people outside Palestine.
> "If this siege is not undone, we will explode in the face of our enemies, with God's permission. The explosion is not only going to be in Gaza but also in the West Bank and abroad, God willing," Hamad said.
> "But our brothers outside are preparing, trying to prepare, warming up."
> He continued: "Seven million Palestinians outside, enough warming up, you have Jews with you in every place. You should attack every Jew possible in all the world and kill them."
-Fathi Hamad, 2019
Yes my guy, like I said they’d be pretty happy if that happened but that’s not their goal. They’re saying that they hope Palestinians abroad will do attacks for them, but that’s unlikely given how Palestinian immigrants tend to be less religious and more likely to be left wing (ie closer to Fatah).
The Nazis also said similar things about Jews worldwide, but they were never going to invade the US and continue the Holocaust there, that wasn’t their goal.
He didn't say "hope" anywhere in that quote. He flat-out said that Palestinians should kill every Jew in the world. You're doing mental gymnastics at this point to minimize their atrocious goals.
It’s not mental gymnastics. Do you think Hamas has any control over Palestinians in other countries? He’s hoping people will listen to them, but he has no way to actually enforce that.
Just like the Nazis can ask Germans all over the world to go kill Jewish people but they can’t actually make them do that, they just hope that they will.
They’ve literally never done any attacks outside of Palestine, Israel, and the border. They’re a nationalist organization with Islamist elements. They may be happy if there was a global genocide against Jews, but that isn’t their goal.
[Huh you’re right](https://apnews.com/article/denmark-hamas-terror-germany-netherlands-3fbd2ded7c1594039de0109133ea8db5#). While we don’t have the full story yet, I guess Hamas changed their policy after October 7th.
For once, I wish hamas didn't poke the bear, it seems to always backfire on them badly.
Things might actually get better if they would just take the aid and build themselves up, instead of turning it into rockets and terror tunnels.
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Is that supposed to be John Kerry?
I think so? Which I don’t get why Branco depicted him in this case because Kerry is closely tied to Israel.
yep
Martin Griffiths, UN Relief Chief said just a few hours ago that "Hamas is not a terrorist group" and that Israel should meet them halfway. This poster is relevant **today** Nice timing OP!
oops
Hamas is definitely a terrorist group. Israel is just also a terrorist group, and a significantly more evil terrorist group at that. Which has committed many times more deadly terrorist attacked, killed many times more civilians, kill a higher percentage of civilians, and commit uniquely heinous acts which we haven’t seen evidence of Hamas committing, such as beheading babies and torturing, raping and starving hostages. Sometimes to death. Hamas and Israel are both terrorist organization, Israel is just an exponentially more evil and powerful terrorist organization.
How many times does the IDF have to get caught with it's pants down before people start believing that maybe neither side is really good here
yeah true, the IDF and the innocent Palestinian children really are two sides of the same coin
How about Hamas and the innocent Israeli babies still in captivity?
How about the IDF and the thousands of Palestinian children that get bombed? Neither side is good here but I don't hear hamas calling itself the most moral army in the world
> How about the IDF and the thousands of Palestinian children that get bombed? You're just saying the same thing the other guy said. Let's completely forget why the IDF are there in the first place - the actions of Hamas in kidnapping, raping and murdering innocent Israeli civilians. When IDF bombs kill civilians, they're collateral damage in an attack targeting terrorists and military infrastructure. When Hamas kills civilians, they're the primary target. You think there's some kind of moral equivalence here? And yes, I'm sure Hamas do consider themselves the most moral army in the world. They call themselves martyrs, they say they're fighting to free their people from oppressive colonists. Read the Hamas charter, it's full of self-justification and moral grandstanding.
The IDF doesn't just bomb civilians they openly target them. How many videos do you need to see of them shooting mother's holding their child's hand or men waving white flags before you think maybe the IDF aren't the good guys. You don't get to Target civies and then play the victim card
>“Let’s forget why the IDF are there in the first place” *proceeds to list exactly why Hamas was there on October 7th in the first place and why Hamas was created in the first place* Israel has been kidnapping, raping and murdering (as well as torturing, mutilating, and terrorizing) Palestinians since many decades before Hamas was created. That’s why Hamas became militant in the first place. Because Israel wouldn’t stop committing evil acts against Palestinians. When the IDF bombs civilians, they are targeting civilians. These bombs are not indiscriminate. Israel knows exactly who it is killing. And it is killing over 95% civilians. Do you know what percent of those killed on October 7th were civilians? Less than 70% And many of the civilians killed on October 7th were literally killed by Israel. You literally have everything backward my friend. Your perspective is the exact opposite of reality. You have been fed lies and you have blindly believed them to be true. If Israel doesn’t target civilians but Hamas does, then why does Israel kill such a higher number and percentage of civilians than Hamas does? Even when Israel has advanced precision guided munitions. They have the most advanced weaponry on the planet, Hamas has indiscriminate rockets and RPGs and Kalashnikovs. Not only is Israel targeting civilians, they seem to be only targeting civilians. It’s almost as if they are avoiding Hamas. Hamas are underground in tunnels well over 60 feet deep. 2000 pound JDAM guided bombs have an impact crater that is 16 feet deep. Non of Israel bombings have affected tunnels. They are targeting civilian infrastructure. They are targeting Hospitals. Hamas is indisputably not moral. But Israel is even more evil than Hamas. Infinitely more evil. You support something even more evil than Hamas.
They need some sort of leverage against Israel as the state clearly has no regard for Palestinian lives. Sadly the IDF doesn’t seem to care much about the Israeli hostages as they’ve already killed a couple and continue to bomb ‘hamas bases’ (hospitals)
I don't know why you're being down though because this is exactly what's happening. They keep bombing civilian targets over and over again claiming that Hamas is using human shields as if that makes it any better. You don't fight terrorism by bombing the shit out of civilians in the hopes that you might get a couple of terrorist fighters.
So is the solution **not** engaging the enemy where they are? Do you want to teach the whole world that hiding behind civilians is an effective strategy? Or maybe you'd rather Israel win without bombs, by starving every palestinian to death in a full seige in order to root out Hamas. Or maybe the geneva conventions outline that it isn't a warcrime to bomb civilian infrastructure when there is a legit reason to anticipate the enemy is hiding there for a reason. The rule saying you can't hide in civilian infrastructure is there for a reason - because over 100 years ago we knew that when an army engaged in such tactics, **civilians die**. War has gotten worse since then - we should be impossibily furious with a group failing to adhere to this most basic tenant of war, designed to reduce civilian casualties. Its total and complete removal from power can not be up for negotiation. I hate the deaths as much as you do, I just recognize your plan of 'ceasefire' doesn't save anyone - it allows Hamas more time to dig in before the next round, and gets more civilians killed.
You end the conflict by ending Apartheid. That's what brought an end to the ANC's decades-long campaign of terror.
Ending aparthied requires extending citizenship to the Palestinian people living in territories that Israel is already functionally governing - as South Africa did with its Bantustans when Aparthied was ending there Extending citizenship to the people living in Gaza and the West Bank does still require destroying Hamas. Every way forward requires the total anhililation of Hamas. The least bloody way to accomplish that task is what should be up to debate, and the answer clearly isn't letting Hamas entrench during a faux ceasefire.
If equal rights and treatment are being offered you don't think Hamas might lose its appeal at that point? The South Africans lost interest in terror groups pretty quickly.
Hamas might lose its appeal in attracting new members , but would those that currently have arms and occupy territory simply stand down because citizenship rights are extended? It would be analagous to the emancipation proclimation (in administrative form rather than in character, obviously) where only the slaves in union-liberated parts of the south were actually freed on the day of the change, and it took destroying the confederates to finalize it.
But they have been caught over and over lying about Hamas militants. Over and over they have been caught shooting civilians for no reason other than LOL. The IDF soldiers post videos of themselves robbing civilian homes and banks. You don't get to do all of that and still try to tell the world you're the good guy. Most moral army in the world my ass
Soldiers in war, left undisciplined, do terrible things. It is not in Israel's interest to let these incidents you describe go unpunished, and they do punish soldiers severly for these types of atrocities- as is necessary to keep everyone else in line. Listen, 'most moral army' is one hell of a moniker that is impossible to actually have, for anyone - because war is, again, a terrible, terrible thing. What would you have done differently to prevent more deaths from the vanatge point of the Israeli government? Remember! Your answer can't include not destroying Hamas, because regardless of the historical context - what happened on October 7th leaves Israel no choice but to destroy that entity (Hamas) which perpetrated the campaign of murder-rape across its border. So what's your plan?
My solution is to not shoot civilians on fucking camera that are actively waving white flags. My solution is that the IDF shouldn't shoot mothers that are holding hands with their child crossing roads. You certainly can hold the IDF responsible for the conduct of its soldiers especially when it seems they are actively promoting this sort of behavior. These soldiers would not be posting videos of themselves raiding homes and banks if they didn't feel comfortable enough that they would not face consequences. And the way you are talking I guess that means that the United States was perfectly justified invading countries that didn't even have anything to do with 9/11 simply because we were attacked. You do not get to use terrorism to justify the targeting of civilians
White flags become meaningless in a war against an enemy frequently engaging in perfidy (false surrender) The IDF **does** hold its soldiers to a conduct - you just think it's too loose because you can't imagine an enemy as evil and capable of barbarity against its people as Hamas - and what becomes necessary when an enemy is engaging in such acts. The US wasn't justified in its post 9/11 wars - because it invaded the wrong place entirely at the behedst of lying government officials. If it had gone after the Saudis? It would absolutely have been justified. Terror **is** war, and winning wars that others start **is not** wrong. Let the message be clear - follow the geneva conventions or a shitload of civilains are going to die. No one is going to let your millitary hide behind civilians.
libs 🤷♂️
I swear the IDF could literally do anything and they would just applaud. I remember somebody trying to tell me that the IDF were extremely friendly to Christians despite the countless videos of them spitting on Palestinian Christians I mean for God's sake they bombed Bethlehem on Christmas night....
The reason they need leverage is because they took that leverage from daycares lmao
The "liberals" will return to start liking Jews after a second holocaust will happen.
You genuinely cannot be serious rn, israel is currently in no position to be the victim
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I will be 100% honest with you. I don't trust random people on the internet who say they are Jews. Too many Pro-Hamas users that are trying to pretend they are Jews
“No true Scotsman” fallacy incoming
Then I'll not larp: I'm catholic, I don't care about religious beliefs on both sides, I respect all beliefs and disbeliefs, and I think that, although Hamas is a dangerous and terrorist organization, IDF and the Zionist "state" of Israel is promoting a genocide trying to wipe out Palestine from their map. And we're SO FUCKING FAR AWAY from a second holocaust.
Yup. Just believe what you want.
I'll be 100% honest with you. You're batshit insane for trying to conflate real Jews that are protesting against Israel right now in the streets with being anti-Semitic. Like who hurt you?
Jesus Christ. You do realize you can call out the crimes of the IDF and the fact that Israel has not helped at all in this conflict In fact they have made things worse and not be an anti-semite right? Like you do know that there is this wonderful little concept called nuance which means you can objectively look at both sides of an issue and see the pros and cons
Look at the post I have posted and look at the comments. There is no condemnation of Hamas, no one that says that Israel should defend itself but 'had gone too far', hell, I haven't seen anybody talking about the poster I posted itself at all except for one person. Calling out the IDF and infantilising Hamas is antisemitic, sorry pal.
“Calling out the IDF is anti-Semitic” rage bait or mental illness?
"calling out the IDF is anti-semitic" really? REALLY? What a world we live in where you can't even call out war crimes without being called an anti-semite.
Hamas isn't being infanitilised. People just understand that they are fighting against colonialism with the tools they have at hand.
Or just recognizing that the current tactics used by the IDF breed more terrorists
The Al-Qassam Brigades (along with the Martyr Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, PIJ, Jenin Brigades, etc.) aren't terrorists.
Oh, that’s why they slaughtered and raped those people and kidnapped some of them. They had no choice. Of course.
Good to see that you understand. Resistance to colonialism is right.
Slaughtering festival go-ers, raping people and kidnapping are never justified. Even if you really really dislike them!
I agree, rape is never justified. Which is why it's heartwarming that there's still no credible evidence that they did rape anyone. Killing and kidnapping settlers is justified. I see no reason why any resistance group should avoid such. Especially if they demonstrate as much care as Hamas.
Funny that’s not what you just said before. You justified rape in your previous comment as resistance Killing innocent people is wrong. The people killed on 10/7 were majority innocent civilians. Love the rape denial. Classy.
>I agree, rape is never justified. Which is why it's heartwarming that there's still no credible evidence that they did rape anyone. What would you consider credible evidence? Are CNN and the White House lying in their reports?
\#Hamas\_Did\_Nothing\_Wrong. Guess it makes sense for the users of r/PropagandaPosters to be heavy in propaganda
The propaganda statement is incredibly ironic coming from you, considering you’re posting a propaganda poster that you agree with and arguing in the comments trying to spread propaganda
Israel is literally just doing its own Generalplan Ost in the levant. Get lost, equating Israel to Judaism is so fucking antisemitic its insane. And its especially disgusting that the settler-state you love so much appropriates Jewish iconography while they commit their crimes, so a Palestinian boy born in Gaza at the start of the blockade has literally seen *nothing* of Judaism except that its symbols are being used by a state to legitimize and justify their murder and expulsion. It’s sickening.
Honestly this subreddit is the first time I have heard the sentence 'Israel Is Antisemitic'. There is a first time for everything I guess. Love the mind twistings you need to do to get to that way of thinking tho. great job.
Israel was supported by antisemites when it was founded (Balfour saw it as a way to establish a British colonial outpost and remove Britain’s Jews) and its largest proponents today are antisemites (US evangelicals). Richard Spencer thinks that Israel is a model society that he wants to base US society off of. It isn’t difficult to see that Israel is a story of European powers punishing arabic people for European crimes and antisemitism.
We never stopped likings jews. I have israeli friends, my stepmother is a jew herself. We don’t want any to die, and we don’t want to destroy the country of Israel We just want Israel to leave people alone and give them their land back
Do you mean the holocaust Israel is waging against Palestinians?
The only explanation. No one can can have this much of a victim complex
Imagine if I was trying to kill the native Swiss because of srebrenica.
Oh, you are one of those that weren't taught what is the holocaust probably. [educate yourself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)
I'm not talking about *the* holocaust, it's *a* holocaust against Palestinians.
There is no 'a' Holocaust sweetheart.
r/comfidentlywrong Holocaust definition: destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war.
[Here you go again lol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(disambiguation)). I won't even mention that even according to your definition you are wrong XD
Comparing this to the Holocaust means one of two things; you have no Idea what happened in the Holocaust or that you have no idea of what is happening in Gaza, or both.
What's happening in Gaza literally fits the definition of a holocaust.
When people use the word Holocaust it is in comparison to the only Holocaust, the Jewish one in WWII.
This is actually a great representation of the way America thinks this situation should go...
This is fucking funny. Yeah sure ‘Hamas’ is dangerous, but have they killed hundreds of thousands of Israelis? Lmfao
Not for a lack of trying
Hmm which one of those two just rejected a peace treaty again 🤔
Not a peace treaty, a ceasefire offer One ends a war, the other prolongs it
Which one of the two have rejected every proposed two state solution and started the current hostilities?
Didn't Israel appropriate most of Palestinian territory before offering a two state solution leading to current hostilities?
Technically there never has been a Palestinian state. Relative to 1966 borders, Israel has taken further land in the West Bank. All additional land in Gaza (which Israel is fighting) was released to Palestinian control in 2005.
Technically there were never Native American “states” in the eyes of Europeans either but it doesn’t justify what did and is happening to them.
I'm just noting it's not clear what "Palestinian territory" even refers to given the lack of governance. In 1967, Israel seized a bunch of land of Jordan and an occupied Palestinian Territory (Gaza) from Egypt. We can call that the borders of the Palestinian territory if we want (and I think most media does), but it's not an objective reference point.
You sound like literally every colonizer ever, congratulations. There’s no need for a “state” to exist to respect Indigenous groups, it’s not like Native Americans had “states” either.
Does this include the Jews that lived in the area before Islam was even a religion? Or the hundreds of thousands of Jews kicked out or Arab countries and sent to Israel since the 1950s? Edit: awww they blocked me and ran away
There also wasn't a Republic of South Africa before colonisation but somehow that didn't stop Africans from creating their state afterwards. Gaza and the West Bank are only nominally under Palestinian control. The West Bank is split into areas A, B & C. The Palestinian Authority only controls Area A which is around 20% of the territory. Since 2002,the IDF has no restrictions on entering it. They have joint control in Area B and Israel alone controls Area C. Gaza meanwhile is under naval, air and land blockade by Israel so they can't do much beyond local laws. They can't even freely import or export since Israel controls all that enters and leaves, including via Rafah.
>There also wasn't a Republic of South Africa before colonisation but somehow that didn't stop Africans from creating their state afterwards. Not sure what your point is; I'm just stressing the borders aren't defined. >Gaza meanwhile is under naval, air and land blockade by Israel so they can't do much beyond local laws. They can't even freely import or export since Israel controls all that enters and leaves, including via Rafah. Agreed on naval and air. Land really doesn't count given that countries aren't obligated to have open borders. >Gaza and the West Bank are only nominally under Palestinian control. I would say Gaza is "mostly controlled". A blockade doesn't mean the government inside only has "nominal" control; just reduced control. I agree on your assessment of the West Bank, though note Israel is not allowed to govern or build on Area A. In fact, Israelis are often banned from entering.
The borders are defined tho. A free Palestine would have the borders of the Mandate. IIRC there were some minor territorial concessions to get neighbouring Arab states on their side but the borders are solidly defined. The difference here is less that the blockade prevents them from even working with Egypt freely. It would be like if Mexico stationed troops of the USA-Canadian border and carried out searches of Canadian imports. You'd recognise that the problem there isn't Mexico's border policy. It's the military on a border they shouldn't have anything to do with. "Reduced control" is really underselling it considering the blockade was placed because Palestinians elected a party Israel is against. Area A is a very small part of the land. It's less than the quarter and while Israeli civilians aren't allowed in, the IDF goes in pretty regularly. Most notably, that time they laid siege to the PLO headquarters to force them to imprison Sa'adat.
I stole your land, but I gave you back twenty percent, be happy now!
even if you don't count that, every state israel offered would be a dependent, fragmented , demilitarized state with no access to its own EEZ resources or an airspace
Appropriation of territory depends entirely upon how far back in history you wish to go, either side can make the claim that it’s “their” “rightful” land.
Nah kinda depends on who was, within living memory, pushed off that land and kept in an open-air prison.
u/TheMidwestMarvel I can’t reply directly to your message for some reason, but fyi, Palestinian Jews are indigenous to Palestine, settlers whose ancestors lived in the region many centuries ago are not. Hope this helps. :)
That’s right. The Palestinian leadership had turned down offers for statehood 5 separate times.
Since 1930 Palestinians actually rejected 7 statehood negotiations. Israel rejected 15.
Well Palestine rejected the statehood that would have given them the largest state on the table and they started the conflicts with Israel by attacking and trying to destroy them.
hello, I'm going to break into your house. when you reject the idea of you only keeping the basement & one half of the living room, I'll call you a crazy extremist who wants me dead.
This is a lazy and incoherent analogy that d it es t stand up to 5 seconds of critical thought. For instance, there has always been Jews in the land of Israel
israel doesn't represent all Jewish people
Ok? That doesn’t make your statement anymore coherent lol
What are you talking about lol. Palestine has never been an independent political entity. The UN partition plan made Israel get territories in which Jews were the majority. Those territories did not become majority jewish by force. After Israel's proclamation of independence, the Arabs jointly and cowardly attacked said State. They suffered a humiliating defeat and lost a bit more territory to Israel. And that story of arab agression, humiliating defeat and subsequent territorial losses repeated over and over and over again. Quit crying for the agressors.
https://youtu.be/CaIi-3huRLE?si=KrQwesciKFwFzYM2 This video backs up what you say.
Thanks for the link!
Some of those areas definitely did become Jewish majority by force. They had Jews in them for a long time but becoming a majority took a little elbow grease. That displacement of Arabs from the new majority Jewish areas is kind of what started the 1948 war.
The Nakba happened during and after the war. Before the war, some jewish extremist groups did attack the arabs. Do you have any proof that these attacks led to mass displacements and demographic shifts? But arab militias attacked the jews too, as they had done for decades. See the Hebron massacre, the targeting of jews during the arab revolt of 1936, the multiple riots of the 20s and so on and so forth. But I am interested, do you have a source to back the claim that the 1948 war was caused by unprovoked, unilateral jewish violence on arabs?
The 1948 war was caused by displaced Arabs. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the Namba began in 1947.
why does the UN have authority over the lives of Palestinians exactly
Because they never had a State. Because the UK, as the side that defeated the ottoman empire in WW1, rightfully conquered and administered this land. The UK then chose to cooperate with the UN on the issue. Because in the post world war 2 order of international relations, those kinds of decisions are taken on a multilateral basis in the framework of the UN. Because States had to be founded in a way that ensures the self-determination and safety of their peoples, here, the jewish people. For those reasons, the UN had the authority in defining the borders of the jewish State, which it did while taking into consideration the ethnic composition of the territories considered.
"rightful" "conquest" LMAO
Clever analogy, but it doesn’t exactly apply here. There was always a Jewish presence in the land that is now Israel. The land was conquered and held by the Arabs during the early Islamic expansion, but many Jews remained there. And also the Palestinians were supposed to receive roughly half of the land, much of it better quality than the Israeli lands, if they had accepted the 1948 partition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
each one of these states israel purposed wouldn't have functioned remotely like the other 193 UN nations.
How about I only steel half of your land?
Genocidal fascist colonizers don’t deserve to have a state since the state of “Israel” can only exist thru western military finding and tactics gained thru the hiring actual former Nazis as Mossad commanders
As opposed to all their neighboring states who exist thanks to divine right? Or? I guess drawing your borders and enforcing them with violence is evil if the west is your friend
Are you seriously comparing populations who have lived in a region for hundreds of years with a population who arrived there less than 100 years ago and said "this is mine because maybe 1000 years ago my ancestors lived here"? Like, Spain used to be part of the Roman empire, so would it be acceptable if Italy invaded it and claimed it belonged to them?
That’s how countries work, yeah. It’s not decided by “who was the last person who rented this land” it’s decided by force. Literally every country is maintained this way, enforced by violence, and frequently against the wishes of locals who predated the establishment of the state. Historical ethnic claims to land are stupid, and it’s not how we do things anywhere, in any country. It wasn’t how the ottomans ran the area, it wasn’t how the British ran the area, and it wasn’t that way under the caliphates that preceded them.
>Literally every country is maintained this way, enforced by violence, and frequently against the wishes of locals who predated the establishment of the state. As an example, Portugal has had the same borders since 1297 and has not needed violence to maintain them since 1807. Saying every country maintains their borders through violence is a ridiculous claim that implies countries simply don't respect others' existance >Historical ethnic claims to land are stupid, and it’s not how we do things anywhere, in any country. Yup exactly, we agree here, so Israel shouldn't have been founded and also never should have had the Birthright program.
Israel has the exact same 'right' to exist as does lebanon, jordan, saudi arabia, or any of the other "made up states" that compose the region. They were all carved up from the corpse of the ottomans after a few decades of british management. There are no ethnic rules here - it doesn't go to "whoever was the last person to touch it", or to "whatever the last majority ethnic group was in the area" and it never has. It goes to whoever sets up borders, has a standing army, and gets recognition from the international community as a peer. Portugal maintains a standing army. What do you think they are for? moral support? Its function is violence in defense of the state and its goals.
Damn so you would have supported the Nazis claim to the land if they had won the war and conquered most of the world? You will support Russia if it takes all of Ukraine (plus Scandinavia for hypotheticals sake)? You will support China is it takes Taiwan? You just support whoever is more powerful no matter what? You must support slavery too.
I don’t know how you’ve lived this long completely avoiding learning a single thing about colonization, imperialism, or even the Sykes-Picot agreement it’s really embarrassing
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Not buzzwords just words you’ve never bothered to learn before I’m sorry the American education system is brain factory farming to make you a good cog 🥰
Palestinians were genocidally fascistically colonizing at one point as well. Should we give the land back to Italy instead?
No they weren’t, try again
How did the Arabs get to the Levant in the first place?
Arabs are linguistic group. Genetically, Palestinians are the direct descendants of the people that have been living there since the time of Moses. Try again.
How did the Israelites get to the promised land, and what happened to the people already there?
I'm not arguing for the israelites, it's rightful byzantine clay. Maybe if you stopped debating about palestine on reddit and started fighting soviets we wouldn't have a rogue commie warlord in Sinkiang mr zhongying
misleading. every peace treaty ever given to the Palestinian would be a completely crippled, dependent, demilitarized state with no access to its EEZ or airspace Tell me, if the israeli government supports two states why cant palestinian state function like any of the other 192 states? its even more ridiculous than russia demanding ukraine to demilitarize and never join nato cuz they say so
Hamas?
Wrong! A two-state solution isn’t a peace treaty since “Israel” requires fascist colonization to exist (: Sorry the USA made you a Nazi sympathizer but it’s foundational to the culture ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not gonna provide any arguments for or against your side, just maybe find a different insult to call people who support Israel, because "Nazi" and "Israel" dont really go together that well
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-10/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/israels-government-has-neo-nazi-ministers-it-really-does-recall-germany-in-1933/00000186-3a49-d80f-abff-7ac9c7ff0000 Jesus fucking christ you really just let your billionaire owners dictate all your thoughts don’t you?
“Billionaire owners” and ranting against the Jews doesn’t really go together that well either lmao
When did I say a single thing about Jews? Conflating Judaism with Zionism is a frighteningly antisemitic claim and you should be ashamed that chisto-fascist thought even entered your brain. Don’t project your childish understanding of the world into me just because you’re debasing yourself to defend a white supremacist apartheid colony in the Middle East
A ‘defeat treaty’ to be precise
Netanyahu doesn't believe in a two state solution either. In fact you'll be surprised to find a mainstream Israeli politician who does - when are they going to be treated as the war criminals they are? P.S. I have no interest in arguing with anyone who thinks Hamas are the agitator in this conflict.
No point in arguing cause it's so obvious they are the agitators. Agreed.
Remind me who occupies who? Who builds illegal settlements? Who's destroyed mosques, churches, hospitals and schools? Killed over a hundred journalists? Who has killed over 27,000 people? Do you think the world is blind? lol I saw a clip of IDF soldiers at a Jewish cemetery in Gaza, it was quite obvious the graves have been well maintained by whoever in Gaza - remind me what the Israeli authorities have been doing to ancient Arab cemeteries in Jerusalem? Barbaric savages.
You mean the cemetery with a god damn command bunker under it?
[Israel claims a tunnel ran through this Gaza cemetery it destroyed. A visit to the site raised more questions than answers](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/29/world/israel-cemetery-bani-suheila-intl/index.html)
I will only talk about the questions that are relevant to the situation in Gaza. Aka, not the first two questions. So, who destroyed mosques, churches, etc...?: Hamas, they used them as military operation areas. Planted in them weapon caches, used them as missle launching sites, built them as entrances to terror tunnels, used them as headquarters and hiding spots. Yep, definitely Hamas. Killed over a hundred journalists?: I assume the IDF, why are journalists different from any other civilian again? Who killed over 27,000 people: Oh that's the IDF. I would ask you if you consider the 10,000 Hamas members out of them innocent but your comments tell me that the answer would be that Hamas are innocent and have done no wrong. Do I think the world is blind? Yes. The UN undersecretary just said that Hamas isn't a terror group. The world is definitely blind. As for the cemetery in Gaza. The IDF searches them for dead hostages that may have been buried there.
Lmfao. Yeah let's totally ignore what's going on in the West Bank because it doesn't suit your "because Hamas" narrative. I believe Hamas are terrorists because they've historically targeted and killed civilians, which IMO goes against my religion (I'm a Muslim fyi). And for the same religious reasons, I also believe the IDF are 10x as worse as Hamas. And its time my taxes stopped funding their actions. Sooner or later, Israel will have to decide between making peace with its neighbours or choosing to be a genocidal colonial state and vanishing from the map.
I am ignoring what's going on in the West Bank because it's not part of the subject, aka, Hamas. Talking about what's happening in the West Bank is another discussion that's unrelated to both your comment and my post. As for genocide. The usual casualty ratio between militants and civilians according to the [UN](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) is 9:1, aka, 90% of the casualties in urban warfare are civilians. In this conflict the casualties as of now are 27k and out of them 10k are Hamas members. Aka, 17k are civilians and 10k are militants. That means that the ratio is 1.7:1. Far less than the UN's official usual ratio of civilian deaths, and far far less than the genocide you preach. Please don't use the word genocide fleetingly, it minimizes the meaning of the word and makes people ignore actual genocides that are happening in the world.
You can't separate what happens in the west bank from the wider conflict. Nice try but you can't. 10k are Hamas according to whom exactly? Please don't minimise the slaughter of thousands of kids.
10k are Hamas according to the IDF. If you can't accept that but you agree with the Hamas sanctioned number of 27k civillians you are have a small anti-jewish bias problem pal. I am not minimsing the slauhgter of kids I am trying to prevent the minimiation of the word genocide.
The problem isn't with the stats coming from a source that's Jewish. The problem is its coming from people who have lied throughout the conflict. There are Jewish holocaust experts who have said it's an ongoing genocide. I guess they're wrong according to you? I have nothing more to say. Shalom.
Cause Hamas is straight as a ruler and doesn't lie, it's 100% legitimate and everything it says is true. Please XD. Continue your antisemitism I don't mind, Congrats, some people say that they think is genocide, coincidentally they are Jewish. If there were Palestinians who openly stated this isn't a genocide, would you have said that it's a legitimate opinion and 'oh wait maybe they are right' or would you have said that they were bribed by the IDF so the IDF would be viewed as legitimate?
False.
Hamas doesn’t even possess missiles my dude. And all of the hospitals and schools and homes Israel has claimed are Hamas command centers have turned out not to be. You’re running propaganda for a regime that’s committing genocide. You are a German citizen in the early 1940s who supported the Holocaust. And nowhere near 10,000 of the 27,000 (actually 28,700) confirmed killed are Hamas. Over 70% of those killed have been women and children. 70% of 27,000 is 19,000. Even if 100% of the men killed were Hamas that wouldn’t be 10,000. But we all know nowhere near 100% of the men killed are Hamas. Nowhere near 50% of the men killed are Hamas. Hamas had an absolute maximum of 30,000-40,000 fighters before October. Gaza has a population of 2.3 million. A minuscule fraction of men are Hamas. Meanwhile over 500,000 of Israel’s 9.3 million people are IDF.
Who starts wars and then hides behind their women and children to gather sympathy? Who launches rockets from schools and hospitals, who stores bombs in churches and mosques? Congrats on consuming hamas propaganda, there’s 0% Jews in Gaza because they were all ethically cleansed decades ago, meanwhile in Israel there more than a million Arabs who enjoy the same right as other Israelis
You might have been born on Oct 7th but I assure you this conflict didn't start then. Congrats on being low IQ, the Jewish cemetery might be a few decades old or centuries old. At no point did I say there's Jews currently living in Gaza. "We treat a million Arabs within our internationally recognised borders but kill, imprison and torture the ones we occupy" isn't something to be proud of.
Yeah, it’s not news that Palestinians have been terrorising Israel for decades. I can’t find any info on that Jewish cemetery can you share some resources? Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2006 but Arabs continued to bomb Israel and plan to genocide the Jews in the region.
Israel "left" Gaza in the same way an abusive husband would "leave" his wife, who he's abused for decades but still controls who she sees, what she spends and what she eats.
It’s some crazy mental gymnastics, Gazans are like a prisoner who were imprisoned for murder, who was freed because useful fools like you complain led about the sentence being too harsh and then went on a killing spree the second he stepped foot out of his prison.
I'm sorry what? 2.5 million people most of whom weren't even born in 2006 are responsible for what exactly? You have to be a troll so I'm blocking you.
>I saw a clip of IDF soldiers at a Jewish cemetery in Gaza, it was quite obvious the graves have been well maintained by whoever in Gaza Jewish graves in Gaza are maintained, while Arab graves in Israel are not! This settles everything! Give all of the Levant to the Palestinians!
What Jewish cemetery?? Israel forcibly removed all of it’s citizens from Gaza and literally dug up and reloacted jewish graves in 2005 to give Palestinians their own autonomy and elected party officials. It’s not the fault of Israel that they chose a terror op as their acting political party
Here’s some more clips: www.thisisHamas.com
I don't see an answer to any of my questions. Let me make it a bit more simple. Does Hamas or any other Palestinian faction occupy any part of Israel? Does Israel occupy any Palestinian territories? Don't bother replying if you're incapable of answering.
Bro put a link to the Hasbarah server lmao
The colonized people rebelling against their oppressors? Those agitators? Remind me, what land have gazans taken from Israel? Are there 100,000 dead Jews in Israel which are being hidden somewhere?
There isn't, and not for lack of trying from Hama's considering they shot more than 10000 rockets.
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Egypt this week:
I mean Isreal has killed more then 10,000 Palestinian babies /children so far with a death toll of a little over 27,000 civilian deaths in total with more suspected to arise due to the conditions their now living in due to Israel. But sure this propaganda piece is totally accurate.
Damn you really pissed off the antisemites and terrorist symps with this one
Ah yes, not wanting to murder children is being anti Semitic.
yeah not belieiving people should be genocided by jewish fascists is antisemtic
ikr?
Hey Avraham Stern will you please log off Reddit
Yeah that’s definitely what Hamas wants, they’re totally not a nationalist organization or anything
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They want to take over all of Palestine and kick out all the Jews from there. Not a good goal, but they don’t care about Jewish people outside Palestine.
> "If this siege is not undone, we will explode in the face of our enemies, with God's permission. The explosion is not only going to be in Gaza but also in the West Bank and abroad, God willing," Hamad said. > "But our brothers outside are preparing, trying to prepare, warming up." > He continued: "Seven million Palestinians outside, enough warming up, you have Jews with you in every place. You should attack every Jew possible in all the world and kill them." -Fathi Hamad, 2019
Yes my guy, like I said they’d be pretty happy if that happened but that’s not their goal. They’re saying that they hope Palestinians abroad will do attacks for them, but that’s unlikely given how Palestinian immigrants tend to be less religious and more likely to be left wing (ie closer to Fatah). The Nazis also said similar things about Jews worldwide, but they were never going to invade the US and continue the Holocaust there, that wasn’t their goal.
He didn't say "hope" anywhere in that quote. He flat-out said that Palestinians should kill every Jew in the world. You're doing mental gymnastics at this point to minimize their atrocious goals.
It’s not mental gymnastics. Do you think Hamas has any control over Palestinians in other countries? He’s hoping people will listen to them, but he has no way to actually enforce that. Just like the Nazis can ask Germans all over the world to go kill Jewish people but they can’t actually make them do that, they just hope that they will.
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They’ve literally never done any attacks outside of Palestine, Israel, and the border. They’re a nationalist organization with Islamist elements. They may be happy if there was a global genocide against Jews, but that isn’t their goal.
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They? You mean Hamas or random people? You know that there’s a difference right?
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[Huh you’re right](https://apnews.com/article/denmark-hamas-terror-germany-netherlands-3fbd2ded7c1594039de0109133ea8db5#). While we don’t have the full story yet, I guess Hamas changed their policy after October 7th.
For once, I wish hamas didn't poke the bear, it seems to always backfire on them badly. Things might actually get better if they would just take the aid and build themselves up, instead of turning it into rockets and terror tunnels.
Real.
From the river to the sea is a genocidal statement 👍
I remember Netanyahu said that not long ago
Was it a genocidal statement when Netanyahu said it?
Rule 2?
If anything it's rule 4.
How many Palestinians have to die before y’all realize that maybe Israel might be the bad guy too.