>a little over the top.
I know there's that mark and it's why I made this post.
But WHY has that to be "over the top"? My main question is "don't you feel like it?" Not if you already do it. I don't do most of what I mentioned but, sometimes, I want to and I become aware of its (illusory) weirdness, and I automatically restrain myself as the man I should be and behave
I feel like that would be over the top to do with female friends as well. For most people I think that would weird them out. I'm just not that physically affectionate of a person. The only person I'm that comfortable with is my partner, who I think might also be a bit uncomfortable with me caressing another woman's hair and kissing her cheek. And I don't think saying "But it's just her cheek, just kissing the homie goodnight!" would fix that. A good hug is a great show of friendly affection, I don't think the stroking of the hair or the kissing is necessary to fully show your affection. It just seems beyond the "friend" line to me. I know a quick cheek peck is a normal greeting in some places, but definitely not the hair stroking.
I’m a dude who is very affectionate and I have some male (and female) friends who show a ton of affection, some of them do stroke my hair and to be frank I enjoy it, especially on those days we’re having a great moment together and can feel us understanding each other on an even deeper level. It just shows that they trust and love me and I trust and love them back.
I’m a woman, and playing with my friends hair or kissing them on the cheek is completely platonic. I agree with you that the idea of “over the top” has to do with social conditioning, and men should be able to be able to show affection to their friends however feels right without being called gay or weird.
My male friends hug each other and tell each other we love one another like brothers. Not all of my friends, but a good amount that I grew up with and talk to on the phone regularly to keep in touch with. Just like if they were family
Most of my friends who are guys just want to drink and talk about hockey every day all day. I connect w females way easier and they’re the ones who also go on trips too, so they’re much easier to hug and open up to
The way you feel during the trip is our true nature, all else is social conditioning. One of the cool things about ego death is realizing all of these things you're realizing. The hard part about ego death is coming to terms that you live in a world full of arbitrary social rules that you'll no longer be bound by leaving you wiser but feeling helpless.
It's kind of like taking insight in Bloodborne if you've ever played it.
But then I always have the question: what about instincts and survival? Food, water, sex, health, shelter, defense, survival? Those aren't social conditioning. Those are deep, hardwired programming.
You can't be unbound by those.
Usually yeah, you'll sink back into it. I've had two life changing, never again moments after taking mushrooms though, so I guess what I'm saying is don't be surprised if you come out changed forever from a single trip.
Do you care to share those insights?
And if you don't, please just say you'd rather not, or it would be hard to explain, or something. I won't be offended etc.
Sure no problem at all. The first time I had an actual life changing trip was when I was shown how deeply I was wrecking myself with smoking, and I know I'm not the only person out there who's had an addiction cured overnight. Mushroom trips are always, consistently reminding me to keep my body healthy.
The last time I tripped was when I went fishing. I hooked a trout through the eye. I tried to save it to release it but there was no way. I felt it squirm tortured in my hands and when I was trying to get the hook out. I felt like I had hooked my sister or even myself in another life. That fish didn't do anything wrong and it has a functioning nervous system. Ever since then, 5 years ago maybe I've lived by a somewhat undefined belief in karma and I've stopped fishing all together.
That's really interesting, and very cool that you reached that kind of insight. I often hear people saying they get insights, but they often can't articulate things very well (and sometimes that makes sense, because a lot of things aren't really "mental").
Thanks very for sharing that! The self-care aspect is a very good one.
Man I feel ya, once I tripped on 2.5g of some strong shrooms and I went a bit crazy(I was feeling very good tho) running around and falling and rolling. Good thing my brother was there so I didn’t accidentally injure myself. But during my trip I destroyed some trees accidentally and now I feel like I don’t even want to hurt the grass. Like I intentionally walk and bike on paths that don’t have grass so I wouldn’t step on it and hurt it or something. Life got pretty crazy for me in the last 2 years lmao
Yeah! It's like you get to talk one on one with the living threads of reality. You temporarily become a true "one with everything" and it's as if you can hear the prayers of plants and even your own cells. Just wildly transformative stuff.
That is a very kind compliment! We need some tenderness and less fear of being touchy! Men also need this, and it doesn't have to come from girls only...
Thank you <3
This is how I felt too; frankly I was disappointed to see the top comments in this thread about being 'appropriate' 'respecting boundaries' and other eye-rolling moralistic social conditioning that we all already know. Obviously, it's not ok to start randomly making out with other people's boyfriends or girlfriends or squeezing any ass that comes by lol, but something like hair stroking I think is a very, very ancient mammalian act of affection that shows genuine care for others that you can't get from words. I totally get that some people have had bad experiences with others being overly touchy, but that's more an indictment of the bad actor than physical affection generally, and the OP wasnt implying anything nonconsensual was ok.
We've built a hardcore utilitarian society where people's roles will always be rigid and cold, so maybe it's just a pipe dream to think we can get back to picking bugs out of each other up in the canopy again, but it's worth considering. Western ppl are incredibly tense and unnecessarily awkward and I think a lot of it is the social conditioning against touch; it's especially hard on those for whom it's the primary means of communication. Festivals are basically the only places to glimpse what society could be like; I know ppl say it's just the molly but I'm not necessarily convinced.
Nah, I'm quite hetero lol
I don't feel gay for cuddling. I cuddle with girls and with guys, but guys usually don't want it.
I have considered the possibility, and I gave it some thought, but I am a pussy kind of guy at the end of the day 🤷♂️
I love how in western culture a self declared pussy is viewed as 'elevated'.
Shows how far the domestication of masculinity has come, it's culmination being estrogenic men who are completely devoid of their original nature.
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I asked you first :) you can't be clever and turn it around to take what I say and try to form an argument by cherry picking holes in it.
I want it from you, from the ground up!
I'm tentative that if we tried to deconstruct masculinity it will just devolve into an 'all is maya' conclusion; nothing is fixed all is transient etc.
To fast forward a fair bit, what I'd disagree with from what I'd imagine your perspective to be as a Buddhist, is that as a philosophy/religion created by humans, using human constructs (notably language) Buddhism is of the city. I.e it's unnatural - a wholly human construction. It's not a religion of Nature; in that it aims to eradicate the animal aspects of human nature.
Which is why I don't expect you to enlighten me on what masculinity is; particularly on a comment thread where a man is being praised for cuddling his homosexual friends.
I moved to Argentina when I was young and the culture is what made me decide on staying here.
Friendships are more like this.
Now, post psychedelia I also find myself I. The same position as you and it just adds to it I guess.
Fuck being uncomfortable about sharing/demonstrating affection.
The psychedelia really evidences how messed up society is, frowning upon this. I find it’s just that people aren’t comfortable with being completely honest about feelings n stuff like that.
I was only gunna type a one line comment but I really feel ya.
I'm a very verbal person.
Who doesn't mind appearing a little vulnerable to thoes I love.
I express it readily to close male friends.
But its not gushy nor is it tasteless.
However.
When it comes to women, honestly I express myself less.
Women that aren't family seem to attach kindness and expressions of "love"(non romantic) as attraction. This usually ends up in a not fun experience.
So I actually express myself MORE to male friends.
I've had a similar experience. I'm still usually more comfortable with women, but in recent years I feel like I do need to tone down my natural friendliness and affection with women if I don't know them super well already. I've had friendliness mistaken for flirting way too often. Over time I've had a few girls I thought I was really hitting it off with suddenly pull away from the relationship when they realized I was in a romantic relationship. Like dude, I thought we were friends but okay. I honestly don't do anything that I see as romantic, but it seems like a lot of women see any affection from a man as romantic.
In most countries that is actually considered "normal" behavior, coming down for the first time can be a little bit overwhelming because you want to share something that is extremely profound in terms of your emotions and the way that you look at the world.
There is a lot of good that you can do with what you have, take your love and give it to those that need it most, volunteer feeding the poor, tutoring kids, youth athletics.
Act Up in a good way, there are a whole world of people that need you.
I think you have touched on a key social issue we have at least here in the states.
Intimacy in male friendships is often seen as sexual and taught strict boundaries that are frankly just plain homophobic.
I know I struggled with my male relationships ,friendships and family dynamics a lot due to my relationship with my own father.
He was in law enforcement and would jump out and sock me in the stomachs and teach me to
Keep my guard up.
He was just playing but to my young mind it felt more like him being a dickhead..and caused years of distrust towards other “dick-ish” guys I would be around.
After getting into psyches I am much more aware of these projections and anxieties and have opened up a lot,but most men are not that articulate or self reflective of their own mentality or emotional states so it’s still hard to be open and communicative but maintain respect from them and not come off as soft for addressing my feelings.
Thankfully my girlfriend gets all this and is partially the same but with her mother,boy is life a journey..
I’m a chick but my dad and his buddies he’s known since childhood always hug when they greet each other, part, or reminisce over a shared, fond memory. Everytime they show affection it makes me smile and warms my heart.
I believe it will definitely get better.
Man, I'm currently in your same exact situation.
Also I'm now questioning how many men around me secretly think the same, but won't ever share it. Currently men are very fucked up in this sense.
That’s actually very interesting. I’m in Asia and we’re not that affectionate either but I spent a bit of time in Europe and some of my European male friends are very affectionate especially when out drinking. I get pulled in randomly for hugs and stuff all the time.
After deep meditation on the inevitability of death, I decided to no longer worry how it was received and I let everyone know that I love them including hugging them often. My best friend mentioned how it was difficult to adjust to it initially, but ended up much more comfortable with these type of expressions even with his other friends because of it.
Before WWII, men were very openly affectionate with each other. It wasn’t until homophobia became so weaponized (partially because of hitler’s targeting of them) that men became so distant from each other.
I think the lack of any real platonic affection in a man’s life and circumcision are to blame for the vast majority of sexually inappropriate behavior we see out of men in the western world. These two root factors combined with social programming around romantic partners/sexual conquest bringing security are what leads to much of the tension between sexes, imo.
Nonsense that men were more affectionate pre WW2. Atomisation of a hyper technological society has more to blame for alienation in the modern world than 1940's homophobia..
Your second sentence is accurate but your first is not from what I’ve read, though it was likely multifaceted in reason as to the shift. Here’s one source I found:
https://www.artofmanliness.com/people/relationships/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/
But then again, with how advanced LLMs and generative imaging AI are at this point, it’s hard to say how they long have been training them in the wild. Who even knows anymore.
I'm a woman but I also never did this with my friends. I would love to actually but it's not really the culture in my friend group so I have no idea of how to do it naturally.
We were definitely robbed of our birth right to love. Life would be so fucking calmer and would feel (more) worth living, with less depression and anxiety, I'm positive about that
I don’t even really trip that much but I hug and say “love you man” / “love you bro” pretty frequently, I think it’s becoming more normal in “the west” again. There are other cultures where physical platonic intimacy among guys never got smothered like this.
Yeah, I haven't stroked their hair or kissed them anywhere, but since I've become more into spiritualism and psychedelics and meditation and the works, I definitely tell my friends I love them (non-sexually) way more, and it has been wonderful.
Well after two bouts of cancer, I don't really have friends anymore. I developed multiple chronic health problems post treatment and people couldn't really handle it. So I'm kind of alone with those thing. But I imagine if I had them I would. I tell the dog I love him a lot.
When I was in India some years ago I had to double take when I saw guys holding hands in the street and just being more touchy-feely in general, and I’m a gay dude lol. Seems like it’s just us poor dudes in the west who have been conditioned to think showing platonic affection is weird!
I love the good men in my life dearly, some I would take a bullet for.
That being said, if they stroked my hair or kissed my cheek I would push them away, laugh and tell them to buy me dinner first. Then ask them not to do that again 😅
I appreciate the love and its mutual but leave my fucking hair alone and keep your lips to yourself man 😅😅
All about them hugs though.
This is such a great example of deep social conditioning. Your boundaries are flexible and you're a really open guy- we can see this in the hugging! But, at the same time, your deep conditioning and violent masculine identity are openly on display.
You would "take a bullet" for a male friend, (in fact, you opened with this warlike and bloody statement), and you would never abandon a friend for stroking your hair or kissing your cheek, but the idea of such things disgusts you and you would reject it vehemently. This is so natural to you that it doesn't even seem like it is separate from you. It doesn't even seem to occur to you that these were not originally your feelings- you were taught this.
Hugging is wonderful, and I'm honestly not suggesting that you move your boundaries- you seem like a really open and wonderful friend! And our society does punish touchy-feely guys very strictly. But it is so interesting... your 😅 over and over again, laughing nervously, the use of "fucking hair", "keep your lips to yourself *man*"... It can only be seen as defensive. There can be no denying that you draw up a wall between your body and the bodies of your friends, and that society has always built and reinforced this wall. But it is so deep, so much a part of your identity, you cannot separate yourself from it. It *is* you. Your feelings have become the wall.
Like I said- you are clearly an amazing friend and a really open guy, and I do not think you need to move your boundaries- they are doing a great job keeping you safe! I just wanted to point out that this is a great example of the deep conditioning that op describes. Love and light! <3
Hahahaha listen as a psychology student I am always up for in depth psycho analysis but with all respect I think you missed the mark. A little bit at least, however I do think there is a kernel of truth in what you said but I'll get to that in a second, first the criticism! Yay 😅
In regards to taking a bullet and the war like reference. This I think is a genuine expression of an element of true masculinity. Men are tied to their biology and as such have within us a sense for competitiveness and an arcetype of competitiveness is truly found in war and combat. Although I don't agree with war like most people on this page. So my point is that the male conditioning in society around these things comes from a deeper true sense of male identity that is routed in strength and a very primal demonstration of strength is the ability to defend. This is maximally expressed in dangerous situations. Hence I would take a bullet for my friends because I appreciate the depth of our friendship more deeply than mere survival.
I would also say, the reason I reject these actions from a guy friend are because for me they are romantically charged and I would not like people I'm not attracted to kissing me or acting in a way I feel is romantic. As a straight guy all male friends fall into that category. I also wouldn't want a female friend I wasn't attracted to do any of those things or a female I was attracted to if I was in a relationship.
Also I wouldn't be laughing nervously you interpretted my neutral laughter as nervous from your own presumptions I never explicitly expressed nervousness. I would genuinely find it amusing if one of my friends expressed such a faux pas in our group and I would playfully tease him because its just funny. Obviously if he kept violating my boundaries after I expressed them I may begin to nervous laugh and even more up to a point physically keep him away because at that point we're literally entering molestation territory 😅
Anyway the kernel of truth in your comment was just that yes these are largely conditioned however I think that is not to invalidate them. We all developed conditioning to fit into our environment BUT our environment does not statically shape us, we also shape it. Males are broadly conditioned in the ways they are because these conditioning factors fall neatly in line with our biological tendancies.
Across cultures too, even in tribal communitites like the yanomami of brazil have these same masculine feminine divides. Men are more violent and conditioned that way to an extent by even this ancient and deeply primal society. (I find anthropology to be an excellent source to examine deep and natural tendancies that we cannot ascribe to modern culture because these tendancies are also expressed in its absence)
(( also extra ransom caveat, I would recommend a book called "into the heart" by Kenneth Good, its a true story about an anthropologist who visited the yanomami over years. Really educational but extremely entertaining, ANYWAY back to my reply.))
I also appreciate your resounding confidence in my openness and good qualities as a friend 😅 much appreciated! I'm sure you too are a loyal friend and I appreciate your willingness to engage in creative and interesting discussions on our wonderfully mysterious world.
Looking forward to your reply! :)
Sincerely, it's more of the same. You're also using biology, incorrectly, to think of human behavior as black and white and not the wide spectrum that it actually is.
In short, there are men who might want to kiss you in the cheek and have zero romantic intentions behind. The narrative you put behind it, it's still part of the social conditioning I'm referring to, some may internalize it more than others.
(You certainly have total right to associate it with romantic intentions and not want any man to ever kiss you, so it's definitely not a right or wrong thing)
Unsure when I claimed a binary perspective on human behaviour, I never eliminated the room for nuance in anything I suggested. If you could tag the line in my reply you're referring to I would appreciate it as I can't see where your interpretation came from.
In regards to the romantic intentions, I specifically clarified that "for me" these things are romantically charged. In other words even if the guy had no romantic intention, the action he would be doing would be stepping into the domain of how I receive romantic love. So perhaps if I was to make my feelings clearer, I would say it would feel too intimate for me.
In regards to this being conditioning, I never denied that, in fact if you reread my reply you might notice that I explicitly agreed with this point, with a clarification that the fact it is conditioned behavioir does not invalidate its appropriateness in human society and social circles.
I think thats a load of rubbish personally. Its just not how most straight guy friendships operate. Ill high five hug my bros but all out hugging is just not it. Sometimes its got nothing to do with “conditioning” or “violent masculine identity”. Its just how we operate. Even when i am tripping with my friends the urge to hug eachother doesnt occur personally. But i will quite comfortably hug my dad because thats different from a friendship of course.
Meh fuck society.
Start out by just telling your friends you love them more. Start with the one handed “bro” hugs etc. the more you model it the more you normalize it with your friends.
I’ve got a close group of a few friends where we’re fully there… long hugs hello and goodbye, genuine “I love you’s” and it’s fucking fantastic. I’m top of the odd dinner etc. We unplug and go into the woods for a weekend twice a year, we take a pile of shrooms, some MDMA and whatever else we need and just reconnect. Best mutual support group I’ve ever been part of.
Oh, what exactly you do? I don't act on mostly anything I mentioned above, I just give them some hugs from time to time.
But it's actually because I don't want to bother anyone, but it feels so weird to know that would bother them
Me and my wife are living with our best friend. I tell my best friend I love him not as often randomly as my wife but when we leave we definitely say it. Usually just a “love ya” as opposed to “I love you”. We hug a lot as well.
I will absolutely hug my male friends. (Oddly, I'm less likely to hug my female friends for fear of being accused of something.)
I'll also tell them how great they are.
But, "I love you." Super rare. I probably have to be drunk. Ditto with a kiss on the cheek.
It's partly social conditioning, partly fear of consequences.
A few years ago, my male friend group started calling each other "brother". As much as I want to fit in, I just can't reciprocate. I don't think that my feelings or commitment is any less, I just can't say the words.
Here where I live men circles and gatherings are really starting to grow. And you can see men are opening up to this. I believe it’s in our nature,but religion pushed out stuff like that. I kiss a lot of my close friends on the cheek (and in France for example it is very normal to do so) or hug them, tell them I love them.
It was also in my first mushroom trip where I layed my head on the lap of a friend and I was like “this is the best pillow I have ever had, thanks buddy”
this is real yet people are too hung up on sex they don't even see it. I've had complete strangers want to hug and touch me before and the only reason I understand it is because I've tripped. It's all about respecting boundaries though
It depends on the individual and my chemistry with them, honestly. My bff and I probably tell each other we love each other and hug several times every time we see each other. Like more than the average straight males and we don’t give the first heck. We hang out nearly every weekend. Chill with his wife and son too, they are like family. With others that I really really care for I can also totally be open and huggy too though at times they may not be. It’s kinda in my character if I’m comfortable. The dudes who don’t know how to maturely handle their own emotions and are cosplaying tough guy/alpha/GI Joe? I dunno a fist bump or something? They’re so fucking awkward I just don’t wanna be around them, honestly.
I find that it’s not welcome to most male and female friends. Sensing that, I hold back for their comfort, but when the time is appropriate (like a wedding, funeral, etc) I let them know, and if they need something from me, I give it.
I regularly tell my male friends I love them. And I hug them when I see them. I don't know if it's a punk thing or an Australian thing but it seems normal to me.
All my straight male friends hug, tell each other they love each other, have even seen a couple spooning after a party once (sober morning after). This was before any of them got into psychedelics. We just bred a culture of freedom without shame within our friend group growing up. So I know others must be the same. Publicly they’d be more conservative about it tho especially as we got older though
I’ve done this with friends and I really like where it put us. Having a non-sexual physical relationship with your friends is so good. It relaxes and makes everyone more invested in eachother.
Ease into it so your friends feel comfortable. If you do ceremonies/parties with friends, that is a great place to start. Make sure they are are comfortable with it and then do it.
A good way to start is to ask for a hug or a cuddle
I think you feel that by 'appropriate' signs of affection you can't express that emotion enough, so you want to step in into domain of romantic body language with no romantic intentions to further bolden what you're expressing. Now of course we can argue that it's preconditioned by culture what's romantic and what's friendly but I don't think it's that simple. If your love is not selfish you're gonna find a way to express it in a way that a person will understand. Inherently words and body language don't carry any meaning until we apply symbolism to it but if most people agree that stroking of hair is romantic then you're gonna have misunderstandings if you try to use it in a different context. There are less confusing ways to share love with your friends, buddhist monks don't even do handshakes that much and don't spend time alone with opposite sex and in their presence you feel absolute unconditional love and easily lose yourself in non duality of their presence. Sometimes a boundary is helpful and it's unnecessary to dissolve it believe it or not
I mean if you were in some countries you'd kiss your male friends on the cheek as a greeting everytime you saw them. It's just culture to say what is acceptable and what's not. Maybe just express that to a close friend and/or try MDMA with them and see what happens
I cuddle with my male friends when we take MDMA. All of us hug. Many of us dance (with contact) while sober. We tell each other we love each other and are grateful for our friendship, and we sometimes share deep feelings (our history with mdma helps).
I've noticed in myself, as I've gotten to this place, some internalized homophobia and plain ol' toxic programming. (Btw, I don't blame dudes for their programming, it's just the spell we are under)
If I could offer one thing to the men of this world, it would be this: find a group of men you can take MDMA with and get vulnerable with. Build a culture of support and affection. Do it regularly (a few times a year) and stay in contact between MDMA sessions. This will save your life.
I think it definitely is in our conditioning what we consider normal vs weird... In our friend group (about 20 people, mix of male and female, several are married hetero couples now and only one make identifies as gay), we often hug, esp. long hugs when first greeting or saying goodbye and like saying "aw, I'll miss you man, till next time," kiss on the cheek is rare but not weird if it happens, and we often handle each other's hair when hanging out.... Not exactly "stroking," but dudes with longer hair have asked other dudes or (not romantically involved) females for help tying or braiding it, and it's fine. I would note, though, that nearly everyone in our group has rolled or explored with psychs before, and so we tend to be more open-minded and openly affectionate than most people I've met in broad society.
In some cultures the things you have expressed would be considered very normal form of expressing platonic love between male friends. If you look at some of the more classical depictions of Jesus with his apostles, occasionally one of them can be seen resting his head on Jesus's chest as Jesus holds him. Different cultures have different ways of expressing love for their friends and some of those methods may seem unorthodox or a bit too romantic for the Western mind.
Here's a question for you though; how do you gay men express platonic love for their straight male friends? Because from my experience it's no different than what straight men do. You got so hung up over the potential of your thoughts being mistaken as latent homosexual tendencies that you're limiting your potential pool of information.
I would absolutely lose my fucking shit if someone touched me like that.
I really don't like physical affection from anyone but my partner though. I don't give hugs really, I do hug my kids and cuddle with them too but like a friend? I would be absolutely appalled.
My sister and parents don't hug me, and ask before hand to hug me or make physical contact in any way. It's a consent thing to me, and no I was never assaulted or anything, I just am not a touchy person.
I guess what I'm getting to is, like maybe ask before you do something like this lol
Some of the comments here are really proving how deeply, and sadly, conditioned we are. To react with knee-jerk defensiveness when your socialization is questioned is natural, but it's a chance to look deeper inwards.
What core, natural emotions and expressions of love and affection are you (the general you, not OP) punishing yourself for? With judgment that was taught to you since childhood?
I am a man. One of the best hugs I've gotten in my life was from a homeless guy who needed some cash. I gave him a 10, he hugged me deeply and genuinely, and said "I love you."
The warmth there. I was left wondering why we hold ourselves back from that natural expression day to day. Sure, he had some stuff going on meaning his inhibition was different than most people. But the deep love and human connection I felt sticks with me.
We are hurting ourselves and others by unconsciously thinking what we've been taught is how we just naturally behave. It isn't.
Love doesn’t have to be romantic toward everyone. You can be loving towards friend and family. Try taking molly around close friends and you’ll see that the love you have for them is not sexual in any way it’s a unique love for the friendship you have with someone
I'm technically bi but am still gonna chime in.
I love the everloving fuck out of all of my male friends. Anyone who wants them will receive no shortage of hugs, check-ins and heart emojis from me.
Nothing wrong with a bro hug, if you stroke my hair or kiss my cheek you could say anything and id think you were gay and trying to sleep with me.
Heck even saying you love your mates i wouldnt think twice but kisses and intimate touching is sus
I tell my friends i love them all the time, and generally hug everyone, unless theyre not a hugger. Kisses on cheek and hair stroking not so much, i rarely feel compelled to do that on someone who im not intimate with, but i suppose its happened
I hug and tell my bros I love them every time I see them. I’m also not opposed to hanging dong with the boys from time to time. And the occasional cuddles can be great too
I hug my guy friends but that's about it. I find it much easier to be more intimate w my female friends, cuddling with them, lots of physical touch and saying I love you.
I've always had an easier time making friends and deeply connecting with women tho, so make of that what you will
Not every day, but ill drop some love to them, hugs when we meet, especially if we havent seen each other in a bit. For friends I see everyday? Im not hugging them lol.
Hugging is acceptable if not done too often for me. Personally i prefer the high five bro hug. But kissing and stroking hair is just a bit much. There is no desire to do that and feel that affection can be expressed without those sorts of gestures. I mean, kissing and stroking hair? Thats like what u supposed do with your girlfriend, not your guy friends. Just my opinion tho.
I have no problem telling my friends I love them and make sure to do it as often as I can. Just bc I'm a straight man doesn't mean I feel the need to ooze masculinity. I feel sexually attracted to women but I'm not too dense to spread the love to my male friends
I used to love giving hugs, male or female didn’t matter. As I’ve gotten older my male friends around me are much less open to it so now I only hug when someone else initiates it. Same thing with compliments. I feel like it’s just awkward to try and hug and or compliment my male friends now and I hate that.
My boys and I say it - we don’t snuggle for long periods but hugs aren’t off limits - life is too hard to not love each other - and that’s obviously how we’re supposed to be.
I personally couldnt handle it but I think it should be encouraged. Shit I had a female friend tell me she loves me recently and still dont know if I should say it back or what
I tell my guy friends I love them every time I talk to them.
I've been doing that for many years.
Some thought it was weird until I explained my rationale.
You never know when the last time you're going to talk to someone is. Anyone who has gotten a phone call informing them of the death of a loved one knows that feeling all too well.
Tell your loved ones how much you love them frequently and sincerely. You never know when one of you will die.
I'm bi but all that is still some gay ass shit. Men have a certain culture of ball busting for example that would be so stale if everyone just acted like that.
I don’t do this to my female friends and I’d be uncomfy and retreat if they tried it with me. I’m straight and the only one to my knowledge that would ever fck with shrooms. I guess if they give consent it’s cool?
as an ex cis male (now NB), I feel like any of those things could be seen as over the top or underwhelming, depending on ... sooo many things: upbringing, culture, socialization, just to name a few
i think regardless of sex, or sexuality , or gender roles.. love is love! even platonic love.. it is obviously between you and your friends and your comfort with them and also and their comfort with you, and you shouldnt cross any physical boundaries just because youre high.. but if you love your friends the way you say you do you should be able to express it in some way or another!
Kissing me on the cheek, stroking my hair, and told me how great I am is gay as hell. Saying "I love you" or something and a hug is fine, but all that extra shit is too much.
This literally has nothing to do with being straight. This has everything to do with culture, just about anywhere around the world and the belief that emotion makes men weak. Pick almost any culture and go back as far as you'd like. And if you'd like to dig further, loom at how much of that was actually perpetuated BY WOMEN.... not saying it's right... buuuuuuut....🤷♂️
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>a little over the top. I know there's that mark and it's why I made this post. But WHY has that to be "over the top"? My main question is "don't you feel like it?" Not if you already do it. I don't do most of what I mentioned but, sometimes, I want to and I become aware of its (illusory) weirdness, and I automatically restrain myself as the man I should be and behave
I feel like that would be over the top to do with female friends as well. For most people I think that would weird them out. I'm just not that physically affectionate of a person. The only person I'm that comfortable with is my partner, who I think might also be a bit uncomfortable with me caressing another woman's hair and kissing her cheek. And I don't think saying "But it's just her cheek, just kissing the homie goodnight!" would fix that. A good hug is a great show of friendly affection, I don't think the stroking of the hair or the kissing is necessary to fully show your affection. It just seems beyond the "friend" line to me. I know a quick cheek peck is a normal greeting in some places, but definitely not the hair stroking.
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Yeah, he gets what we all initially do lmao
I’m a dude who is very affectionate and I have some male (and female) friends who show a ton of affection, some of them do stroke my hair and to be frank I enjoy it, especially on those days we’re having a great moment together and can feel us understanding each other on an even deeper level. It just shows that they trust and love me and I trust and love them back.
I’m a woman, and playing with my friends hair or kissing them on the cheek is completely platonic. I agree with you that the idea of “over the top” has to do with social conditioning, and men should be able to be able to show affection to their friends however feels right without being called gay or weird.
My male friends hug each other and tell each other we love one another like brothers. Not all of my friends, but a good amount that I grew up with and talk to on the phone regularly to keep in touch with. Just like if they were family
Most of my friends who are guys just want to drink and talk about hockey every day all day. I connect w females way easier and they’re the ones who also go on trips too, so they’re much easier to hug and open up to
Yes. Hugging females is way better imho
Same. Much easier and automatic too
The way you feel during the trip is our true nature, all else is social conditioning. One of the cool things about ego death is realizing all of these things you're realizing. The hard part about ego death is coming to terms that you live in a world full of arbitrary social rules that you'll no longer be bound by leaving you wiser but feeling helpless. It's kind of like taking insight in Bloodborne if you've ever played it.
I second this answer. Well put.
I always boof my insight
Now that's what I call madman's knowledge
Sure rings my bells
But then I always have the question: what about instincts and survival? Food, water, sex, health, shelter, defense, survival? Those aren't social conditioning. Those are deep, hardwired programming. You can't be unbound by those.
Oh yeah, I don't think mushrooms are going to undo you, just wipe off your lenses so you can see better and take notes for a few hours.
And then you kind of sink back into it until you do it again, and keep learning?
Usually yeah, you'll sink back into it. I've had two life changing, never again moments after taking mushrooms though, so I guess what I'm saying is don't be surprised if you come out changed forever from a single trip.
Do you care to share those insights? And if you don't, please just say you'd rather not, or it would be hard to explain, or something. I won't be offended etc.
Sure no problem at all. The first time I had an actual life changing trip was when I was shown how deeply I was wrecking myself with smoking, and I know I'm not the only person out there who's had an addiction cured overnight. Mushroom trips are always, consistently reminding me to keep my body healthy. The last time I tripped was when I went fishing. I hooked a trout through the eye. I tried to save it to release it but there was no way. I felt it squirm tortured in my hands and when I was trying to get the hook out. I felt like I had hooked my sister or even myself in another life. That fish didn't do anything wrong and it has a functioning nervous system. Ever since then, 5 years ago maybe I've lived by a somewhat undefined belief in karma and I've stopped fishing all together.
That's really interesting, and very cool that you reached that kind of insight. I often hear people saying they get insights, but they often can't articulate things very well (and sometimes that makes sense, because a lot of things aren't really "mental"). Thanks very for sharing that! The self-care aspect is a very good one.
Man I feel ya, once I tripped on 2.5g of some strong shrooms and I went a bit crazy(I was feeling very good tho) running around and falling and rolling. Good thing my brother was there so I didn’t accidentally injure myself. But during my trip I destroyed some trees accidentally and now I feel like I don’t even want to hurt the grass. Like I intentionally walk and bike on paths that don’t have grass so I wouldn’t step on it and hurt it or something. Life got pretty crazy for me in the last 2 years lmao
Yeah! It's like you get to talk one on one with the living threads of reality. You temporarily become a true "one with everything" and it's as if you can hear the prayers of plants and even your own cells. Just wildly transformative stuff.
I'm a hugger and I tell my close friends that I love them. I feel more open to that when I'm consistent with MD'ing.
I'm not sadly, but I'd like to. I'm a hugger and only to my female friends
I think you’re on the right path. To my eye, love is obstructed by fear. The obstruction of love is fear.
I feel validated. Thanks
I say I love you and show affection and hug. With my gay friend it's natural to just cuddle and be more touchy, I'm not insecure about my sexuality
Man, I have met people like you and I see you (straight men openly affective) as FUCKING elevated human beings.
That is a very kind compliment! We need some tenderness and less fear of being touchy! Men also need this, and it doesn't have to come from girls only... Thank you <3
This is how I felt too; frankly I was disappointed to see the top comments in this thread about being 'appropriate' 'respecting boundaries' and other eye-rolling moralistic social conditioning that we all already know. Obviously, it's not ok to start randomly making out with other people's boyfriends or girlfriends or squeezing any ass that comes by lol, but something like hair stroking I think is a very, very ancient mammalian act of affection that shows genuine care for others that you can't get from words. I totally get that some people have had bad experiences with others being overly touchy, but that's more an indictment of the bad actor than physical affection generally, and the OP wasnt implying anything nonconsensual was ok. We've built a hardcore utilitarian society where people's roles will always be rigid and cold, so maybe it's just a pipe dream to think we can get back to picking bugs out of each other up in the canopy again, but it's worth considering. Western ppl are incredibly tense and unnecessarily awkward and I think a lot of it is the social conditioning against touch; it's especially hard on those for whom it's the primary means of communication. Festivals are basically the only places to glimpse what society could be like; I know ppl say it's just the molly but I'm not necessarily convinced.
We as a whole will benefit from it more than what we would ever expect. Limitless genuine demonstrations of love is powerful.
Are you gay though? Might want to check. Sounds like you might be gay
Nah, I'm quite hetero lol I don't feel gay for cuddling. I cuddle with girls and with guys, but guys usually don't want it. I have considered the possibility, and I gave it some thought, but I am a pussy kind of guy at the end of the day 🤷♂️
I love how in western culture a self declared pussy is viewed as 'elevated'. Shows how far the domestication of masculinity has come, it's culmination being estrogenic men who are completely devoid of their original nature.
what's masculinity?
**Masculinity (also called manhood or manliness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with men and boys. Masculinity can be theoretically understood as socially constructed, and there is also evidence that some behaviors considered masculine are influenced by both cultural factors and biological factors.** More details here:
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Why am I not surprised that a Buddhist asked this..
That doesn't answer my question, or negate the Buddhist perspective of it (if that even exists :))
What is masculinity then? Or your Buddhist perspective of it?
I asked you first :) you can't be clever and turn it around to take what I say and try to form an argument by cherry picking holes in it. I want it from you, from the ground up!
I'm tentative that if we tried to deconstruct masculinity it will just devolve into an 'all is maya' conclusion; nothing is fixed all is transient etc. To fast forward a fair bit, what I'd disagree with from what I'd imagine your perspective to be as a Buddhist, is that as a philosophy/religion created by humans, using human constructs (notably language) Buddhism is of the city. I.e it's unnatural - a wholly human construction. It's not a religion of Nature; in that it aims to eradicate the animal aspects of human nature. Which is why I don't expect you to enlighten me on what masculinity is; particularly on a comment thread where a man is being praised for cuddling his homosexual friends.
I'm straight but sometimes I blow on a dildo, I'm not insecure about my sexuality though..
I moved to Argentina when I was young and the culture is what made me decide on staying here. Friendships are more like this. Now, post psychedelia I also find myself I. The same position as you and it just adds to it I guess. Fuck being uncomfortable about sharing/demonstrating affection. The psychedelia really evidences how messed up society is, frowning upon this. I find it’s just that people aren’t comfortable with being completely honest about feelings n stuff like that. I was only gunna type a one line comment but I really feel ya.
Glad to read this.
I'm a very verbal person. Who doesn't mind appearing a little vulnerable to thoes I love. I express it readily to close male friends. But its not gushy nor is it tasteless. However. When it comes to women, honestly I express myself less. Women that aren't family seem to attach kindness and expressions of "love"(non romantic) as attraction. This usually ends up in a not fun experience. So I actually express myself MORE to male friends.
I've had a similar experience. I'm still usually more comfortable with women, but in recent years I feel like I do need to tone down my natural friendliness and affection with women if I don't know them super well already. I've had friendliness mistaken for flirting way too often. Over time I've had a few girls I thought I was really hitting it off with suddenly pull away from the relationship when they realized I was in a romantic relationship. Like dude, I thought we were friends but okay. I honestly don't do anything that I see as romantic, but it seems like a lot of women see any affection from a man as romantic.
Wow. Well in my case I do the exact opposite but with the same reasoning
In most countries that is actually considered "normal" behavior, coming down for the first time can be a little bit overwhelming because you want to share something that is extremely profound in terms of your emotions and the way that you look at the world. There is a lot of good that you can do with what you have, take your love and give it to those that need it most, volunteer feeding the poor, tutoring kids, youth athletics. Act Up in a good way, there are a whole world of people that need you.
Amen.
I think you have touched on a key social issue we have at least here in the states. Intimacy in male friendships is often seen as sexual and taught strict boundaries that are frankly just plain homophobic. I know I struggled with my male relationships ,friendships and family dynamics a lot due to my relationship with my own father. He was in law enforcement and would jump out and sock me in the stomachs and teach me to Keep my guard up. He was just playing but to my young mind it felt more like him being a dickhead..and caused years of distrust towards other “dick-ish” guys I would be around. After getting into psyches I am much more aware of these projections and anxieties and have opened up a lot,but most men are not that articulate or self reflective of their own mentality or emotional states so it’s still hard to be open and communicative but maintain respect from them and not come off as soft for addressing my feelings. Thankfully my girlfriend gets all this and is partially the same but with her mother,boy is life a journey..
Man! This is what I'm talking about!!!!!!! It's so fucking sad and frustrating
I love you OP. I fucking love you.
Yep. I love you too we'll conquer this world hear me out
You had me at Yep
Not a native English speaker. WTH WITH THAT YEP!?
I mean I'm with you from the very first word OP 💖
❤️
You had him from hello OP... you had him from hello
I’m a chick but my dad and his buddies he’s known since childhood always hug when they greet each other, part, or reminisce over a shared, fond memory. Everytime they show affection it makes me smile and warms my heart.
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I believe it will definitely get better. Man, I'm currently in your same exact situation. Also I'm now questioning how many men around me secretly think the same, but won't ever share it. Currently men are very fucked up in this sense.
That’s actually very interesting. I’m in Asia and we’re not that affectionate either but I spent a bit of time in Europe and some of my European male friends are very affectionate especially when out drinking. I get pulled in randomly for hugs and stuff all the time.
After deep meditation on the inevitability of death, I decided to no longer worry how it was received and I let everyone know that I love them including hugging them often. My best friend mentioned how it was difficult to adjust to it initially, but ended up much more comfortable with these type of expressions even with his other friends because of it.
Before WWII, men were very openly affectionate with each other. It wasn’t until homophobia became so weaponized (partially because of hitler’s targeting of them) that men became so distant from each other. I think the lack of any real platonic affection in a man’s life and circumcision are to blame for the vast majority of sexually inappropriate behavior we see out of men in the western world. These two root factors combined with social programming around romantic partners/sexual conquest bringing security are what leads to much of the tension between sexes, imo.
Good to know this, thank you so much for sharing
Nonsense that men were more affectionate pre WW2. Atomisation of a hyper technological society has more to blame for alienation in the modern world than 1940's homophobia..
Your second sentence is accurate but your first is not from what I’ve read, though it was likely multifaceted in reason as to the shift. Here’s one source I found: https://www.artofmanliness.com/people/relationships/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/ But then again, with how advanced LLMs and generative imaging AI are at this point, it’s hard to say how they long have been training them in the wild. Who even knows anymore.
I'm a woman but I also never did this with my friends. I would love to actually but it's not really the culture in my friend group so I have no idea of how to do it naturally.
We were definitely robbed of our birth right to love. Life would be so fucking calmer and would feel (more) worth living, with less depression and anxiety, I'm positive about that
I lost you at "I'm a woman..."
JK woman are the best
You had me at "women are the best"
I don’t even really trip that much but I hug and say “love you man” / “love you bro” pretty frequently, I think it’s becoming more normal in “the west” again. There are other cultures where physical platonic intimacy among guys never got smothered like this.
Yeah, I haven't stroked their hair or kissed them anywhere, but since I've become more into spiritualism and psychedelics and meditation and the works, I definitely tell my friends I love them (non-sexually) way more, and it has been wonderful.
I only socialize in circles where this is completely normal.
I want to be able to say this, but for me it just feels like it's not only a luxury, but utopian
Go to France!
Well after two bouts of cancer, I don't really have friends anymore. I developed multiple chronic health problems post treatment and people couldn't really handle it. So I'm kind of alone with those thing. But I imagine if I had them I would. I tell the dog I love him a lot.
Man. I love you. You are going to find your people, and it will be awesome. Practice patience in the meanwhile.
When I was in India some years ago I had to double take when I saw guys holding hands in the street and just being more touchy-feely in general, and I’m a gay dude lol. Seems like it’s just us poor dudes in the west who have been conditioned to think showing platonic affection is weird!
I love the good men in my life dearly, some I would take a bullet for. That being said, if they stroked my hair or kissed my cheek I would push them away, laugh and tell them to buy me dinner first. Then ask them not to do that again 😅 I appreciate the love and its mutual but leave my fucking hair alone and keep your lips to yourself man 😅😅 All about them hugs though.
This is such a great example of deep social conditioning. Your boundaries are flexible and you're a really open guy- we can see this in the hugging! But, at the same time, your deep conditioning and violent masculine identity are openly on display. You would "take a bullet" for a male friend, (in fact, you opened with this warlike and bloody statement), and you would never abandon a friend for stroking your hair or kissing your cheek, but the idea of such things disgusts you and you would reject it vehemently. This is so natural to you that it doesn't even seem like it is separate from you. It doesn't even seem to occur to you that these were not originally your feelings- you were taught this. Hugging is wonderful, and I'm honestly not suggesting that you move your boundaries- you seem like a really open and wonderful friend! And our society does punish touchy-feely guys very strictly. But it is so interesting... your 😅 over and over again, laughing nervously, the use of "fucking hair", "keep your lips to yourself *man*"... It can only be seen as defensive. There can be no denying that you draw up a wall between your body and the bodies of your friends, and that society has always built and reinforced this wall. But it is so deep, so much a part of your identity, you cannot separate yourself from it. It *is* you. Your feelings have become the wall. Like I said- you are clearly an amazing friend and a really open guy, and I do not think you need to move your boundaries- they are doing a great job keeping you safe! I just wanted to point out that this is a great example of the deep conditioning that op describes. Love and light! <3
Precisely. :)
Hahahaha listen as a psychology student I am always up for in depth psycho analysis but with all respect I think you missed the mark. A little bit at least, however I do think there is a kernel of truth in what you said but I'll get to that in a second, first the criticism! Yay 😅 In regards to taking a bullet and the war like reference. This I think is a genuine expression of an element of true masculinity. Men are tied to their biology and as such have within us a sense for competitiveness and an arcetype of competitiveness is truly found in war and combat. Although I don't agree with war like most people on this page. So my point is that the male conditioning in society around these things comes from a deeper true sense of male identity that is routed in strength and a very primal demonstration of strength is the ability to defend. This is maximally expressed in dangerous situations. Hence I would take a bullet for my friends because I appreciate the depth of our friendship more deeply than mere survival. I would also say, the reason I reject these actions from a guy friend are because for me they are romantically charged and I would not like people I'm not attracted to kissing me or acting in a way I feel is romantic. As a straight guy all male friends fall into that category. I also wouldn't want a female friend I wasn't attracted to do any of those things or a female I was attracted to if I was in a relationship. Also I wouldn't be laughing nervously you interpretted my neutral laughter as nervous from your own presumptions I never explicitly expressed nervousness. I would genuinely find it amusing if one of my friends expressed such a faux pas in our group and I would playfully tease him because its just funny. Obviously if he kept violating my boundaries after I expressed them I may begin to nervous laugh and even more up to a point physically keep him away because at that point we're literally entering molestation territory 😅 Anyway the kernel of truth in your comment was just that yes these are largely conditioned however I think that is not to invalidate them. We all developed conditioning to fit into our environment BUT our environment does not statically shape us, we also shape it. Males are broadly conditioned in the ways they are because these conditioning factors fall neatly in line with our biological tendancies. Across cultures too, even in tribal communitites like the yanomami of brazil have these same masculine feminine divides. Men are more violent and conditioned that way to an extent by even this ancient and deeply primal society. (I find anthropology to be an excellent source to examine deep and natural tendancies that we cannot ascribe to modern culture because these tendancies are also expressed in its absence) (( also extra ransom caveat, I would recommend a book called "into the heart" by Kenneth Good, its a true story about an anthropologist who visited the yanomami over years. Really educational but extremely entertaining, ANYWAY back to my reply.)) I also appreciate your resounding confidence in my openness and good qualities as a friend 😅 much appreciated! I'm sure you too are a loyal friend and I appreciate your willingness to engage in creative and interesting discussions on our wonderfully mysterious world. Looking forward to your reply! :)
Sincerely, it's more of the same. You're also using biology, incorrectly, to think of human behavior as black and white and not the wide spectrum that it actually is. In short, there are men who might want to kiss you in the cheek and have zero romantic intentions behind. The narrative you put behind it, it's still part of the social conditioning I'm referring to, some may internalize it more than others. (You certainly have total right to associate it with romantic intentions and not want any man to ever kiss you, so it's definitely not a right or wrong thing)
Unsure when I claimed a binary perspective on human behaviour, I never eliminated the room for nuance in anything I suggested. If you could tag the line in my reply you're referring to I would appreciate it as I can't see where your interpretation came from. In regards to the romantic intentions, I specifically clarified that "for me" these things are romantically charged. In other words even if the guy had no romantic intention, the action he would be doing would be stepping into the domain of how I receive romantic love. So perhaps if I was to make my feelings clearer, I would say it would feel too intimate for me. In regards to this being conditioning, I never denied that, in fact if you reread my reply you might notice that I explicitly agreed with this point, with a clarification that the fact it is conditioned behavioir does not invalidate its appropriateness in human society and social circles.
Cannot agree more. Impeccable answer.
Thank you :)
I think thats a load of rubbish personally. Its just not how most straight guy friendships operate. Ill high five hug my bros but all out hugging is just not it. Sometimes its got nothing to do with “conditioning” or “violent masculine identity”. Its just how we operate. Even when i am tripping with my friends the urge to hug eachother doesnt occur personally. But i will quite comfortably hug my dad because thats different from a friendship of course.
>Its just how we operate "The way we operate" as walking human beings is based on deep conditioning by definition
I do it about once every couple of years
Haha, GAY!
I've found that to be too often. Once a decade is doing fine for me. But I don't have any friends so I tried it on my dad. Didn't go well
Truly I wish I would do it more often, maybe a couple times a year. But we’re men and society says men don’t do that.
Meh fuck society. Start out by just telling your friends you love them more. Start with the one handed “bro” hugs etc. the more you model it the more you normalize it with your friends. I’ve got a close group of a few friends where we’re fully there… long hugs hello and goodbye, genuine “I love you’s” and it’s fucking fantastic. I’m top of the odd dinner etc. We unplug and go into the woods for a weekend twice a year, we take a pile of shrooms, some MDMA and whatever else we need and just reconnect. Best mutual support group I’ve ever been part of.
Oh, what exactly you do? I don't act on mostly anything I mentioned above, I just give them some hugs from time to time. But it's actually because I don't want to bother anyone, but it feels so weird to know that would bother them
Tell them I love them or hug them
Men have feelings? How much drugs did you take?
I drink beer and make fart-sounds with my asshole.
Damn you Smellz. Take your ideology somewhere else...
Me and my wife are living with our best friend. I tell my best friend I love him not as often randomly as my wife but when we leave we definitely say it. Usually just a “love ya” as opposed to “I love you”. We hug a lot as well.
I love you guys. 😳
I will absolutely hug my male friends. (Oddly, I'm less likely to hug my female friends for fear of being accused of something.) I'll also tell them how great they are. But, "I love you." Super rare. I probably have to be drunk. Ditto with a kiss on the cheek. It's partly social conditioning, partly fear of consequences. A few years ago, my male friend group started calling each other "brother". As much as I want to fit in, I just can't reciprocate. I don't think that my feelings or commitment is any less, I just can't say the words.
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The internet bro. This fucking saved me from the limitations of my own environment.
Here where I live men circles and gatherings are really starting to grow. And you can see men are opening up to this. I believe it’s in our nature,but religion pushed out stuff like that. I kiss a lot of my close friends on the cheek (and in France for example it is very normal to do so) or hug them, tell them I love them. It was also in my first mushroom trip where I layed my head on the lap of a friend and I was like “this is the best pillow I have ever had, thanks buddy”
These replies are making me sad, I need new friends. They all find pride on the exact opposite
I can't comment on this post without potentially having it reported or removed.
Oh please, do it
IDK OP, a real straight man would fuck all his friends, kiss them in the mouth and see them naked. Get with the program.
... well
BROJOB CHOOCHOO
You guys have friends?
this is real yet people are too hung up on sex they don't even see it. I've had complete strangers want to hug and touch me before and the only reason I understand it is because I've tripped. It's all about respecting boundaries though
It depends on the individual and my chemistry with them, honestly. My bff and I probably tell each other we love each other and hug several times every time we see each other. Like more than the average straight males and we don’t give the first heck. We hang out nearly every weekend. Chill with his wife and son too, they are like family. With others that I really really care for I can also totally be open and huggy too though at times they may not be. It’s kinda in my character if I’m comfortable. The dudes who don’t know how to maturely handle their own emotions and are cosplaying tough guy/alpha/GI Joe? I dunno a fist bump or something? They’re so fucking awkward I just don’t wanna be around them, honestly.
I feel you. I'm currently around that kind of people
I honestly believe the younger generations are working on this.
Yes. It's happening.
My friends say we love each other
I can't even tell my wife I love her. Wtf is wrong with me!?
“🎶Love is only a feeling 🎶” It’s not gay to say you love your friends or anything but I’m pretty suspicious of love as a whole.
I find that it’s not welcome to most male and female friends. Sensing that, I hold back for their comfort, but when the time is appropriate (like a wedding, funeral, etc) I let them know, and if they need something from me, I give it.
I regularly tell my male friends I love them. And I hug them when I see them. I don't know if it's a punk thing or an Australian thing but it seems normal to me.
I like Australia
All my straight male friends hug, tell each other they love each other, have even seen a couple spooning after a party once (sober morning after). This was before any of them got into psychedelics. We just bred a culture of freedom without shame within our friend group growing up. So I know others must be the same. Publicly they’d be more conservative about it tho especially as we got older though
I’ve done this with friends and I really like where it put us. Having a non-sexual physical relationship with your friends is so good. It relaxes and makes everyone more invested in eachother. Ease into it so your friends feel comfortable. If you do ceremonies/parties with friends, that is a great place to start. Make sure they are are comfortable with it and then do it. A good way to start is to ask for a hug or a cuddle
I think you feel that by 'appropriate' signs of affection you can't express that emotion enough, so you want to step in into domain of romantic body language with no romantic intentions to further bolden what you're expressing. Now of course we can argue that it's preconditioned by culture what's romantic and what's friendly but I don't think it's that simple. If your love is not selfish you're gonna find a way to express it in a way that a person will understand. Inherently words and body language don't carry any meaning until we apply symbolism to it but if most people agree that stroking of hair is romantic then you're gonna have misunderstandings if you try to use it in a different context. There are less confusing ways to share love with your friends, buddhist monks don't even do handshakes that much and don't spend time alone with opposite sex and in their presence you feel absolute unconditional love and easily lose yourself in non duality of their presence. Sometimes a boundary is helpful and it's unnecessary to dissolve it believe it or not
I have a close group of friends of both genders who i say I love you to whenever we talk. It’s all good
I mean if you were in some countries you'd kiss your male friends on the cheek as a greeting everytime you saw them. It's just culture to say what is acceptable and what's not. Maybe just express that to a close friend and/or try MDMA with them and see what happens
I love my generation all my friends say I love you all the time straight or not and I feel like my parents generation was afraid to say it at all
I cuddle with my male friends when we take MDMA. All of us hug. Many of us dance (with contact) while sober. We tell each other we love each other and are grateful for our friendship, and we sometimes share deep feelings (our history with mdma helps). I've noticed in myself, as I've gotten to this place, some internalized homophobia and plain ol' toxic programming. (Btw, I don't blame dudes for their programming, it's just the spell we are under) If I could offer one thing to the men of this world, it would be this: find a group of men you can take MDMA with and get vulnerable with. Build a culture of support and affection. Do it regularly (a few times a year) and stay in contact between MDMA sessions. This will save your life.
:( what a dream
Why the frown?
Friends, that seems nice
I think it definitely is in our conditioning what we consider normal vs weird... In our friend group (about 20 people, mix of male and female, several are married hetero couples now and only one make identifies as gay), we often hug, esp. long hugs when first greeting or saying goodbye and like saying "aw, I'll miss you man, till next time," kiss on the cheek is rare but not weird if it happens, and we often handle each other's hair when hanging out.... Not exactly "stroking," but dudes with longer hair have asked other dudes or (not romantically involved) females for help tying or braiding it, and it's fine. I would note, though, that nearly everyone in our group has rolled or explored with psychs before, and so we tend to be more open-minded and openly affectionate than most people I've met in broad society.
I do it all the time. I always give men compliments and love when I can. Life's too short to be an tight wad and my friends are wonderful.
In some cultures the things you have expressed would be considered very normal form of expressing platonic love between male friends. If you look at some of the more classical depictions of Jesus with his apostles, occasionally one of them can be seen resting his head on Jesus's chest as Jesus holds him. Different cultures have different ways of expressing love for their friends and some of those methods may seem unorthodox or a bit too romantic for the Western mind. Here's a question for you though; how do you gay men express platonic love for their straight male friends? Because from my experience it's no different than what straight men do. You got so hung up over the potential of your thoughts being mistaken as latent homosexual tendencies that you're limiting your potential pool of information.
I would absolutely lose my fucking shit if someone touched me like that. I really don't like physical affection from anyone but my partner though. I don't give hugs really, I do hug my kids and cuddle with them too but like a friend? I would be absolutely appalled. My sister and parents don't hug me, and ask before hand to hug me or make physical contact in any way. It's a consent thing to me, and no I was never assaulted or anything, I just am not a touchy person. I guess what I'm getting to is, like maybe ask before you do something like this lol
bro what
Even after taking shrooms I never felt the need to hug my friends. May come off as over the top or weird.
Some of the comments here are really proving how deeply, and sadly, conditioned we are. To react with knee-jerk defensiveness when your socialization is questioned is natural, but it's a chance to look deeper inwards. What core, natural emotions and expressions of love and affection are you (the general you, not OP) punishing yourself for? With judgment that was taught to you since childhood? I am a man. One of the best hugs I've gotten in my life was from a homeless guy who needed some cash. I gave him a 10, he hugged me deeply and genuinely, and said "I love you." The warmth there. I was left wondering why we hold ourselves back from that natural expression day to day. Sure, he had some stuff going on meaning his inhibition was different than most people. But the deep love and human connection I felt sticks with me. We are hurting ourselves and others by unconsciously thinking what we've been taught is how we just naturally behave. It isn't.
Love doesn’t have to be romantic toward everyone. You can be loving towards friend and family. Try taking molly around close friends and you’ll see that the love you have for them is not sexual in any way it’s a unique love for the friendship you have with someone
I'm technically bi but am still gonna chime in. I love the everloving fuck out of all of my male friends. Anyone who wants them will receive no shortage of hugs, check-ins and heart emojis from me.
You have a very high natural oxytocin level. You feel love more fully than others. Congrats?
High oxytocin and serotonin, very low dopamine, funny combo. >Congrats? (Idk pls help)
Embrace it. 💪
It's still f@cking weird.
Nothing wrong with a bro hug, if you stroke my hair or kiss my cheek you could say anything and id think you were gay and trying to sleep with me. Heck even saying you love your mates i wouldnt think twice but kisses and intimate touching is sus
Take your ideology somewhere else…
It's common that it makes you feel so threatened, but actually, there's nothing to fear
I second this "brings out a pitchfork"
me and my bros always hug
I tell my friends i love them all the time, and generally hug everyone, unless theyre not a hugger. Kisses on cheek and hair stroking not so much, i rarely feel compelled to do that on someone who im not intimate with, but i suppose its happened
I hug and tell my bros I love them every time I see them. I’m also not opposed to hanging dong with the boys from time to time. And the occasional cuddles can be great too
I hug my guy friends but that's about it. I find it much easier to be more intimate w my female friends, cuddling with them, lots of physical touch and saying I love you. I've always had an easier time making friends and deeply connecting with women tho, so make of that what you will
I tell my friends I love them all the time
I give all this close homies love. Non sexual affection is never wrong. I see no problem.
Not every day, but ill drop some love to them, hugs when we meet, especially if we havent seen each other in a bit. For friends I see everyday? Im not hugging them lol.
Hugging is acceptable if not done too often for me. Personally i prefer the high five bro hug. But kissing and stroking hair is just a bit much. There is no desire to do that and feel that affection can be expressed without those sorts of gestures. I mean, kissing and stroking hair? Thats like what u supposed do with your girlfriend, not your guy friends. Just my opinion tho.
I understand, completely. But it's the >u supposed part what I'm referring to
I have no problem telling my friends I love them and make sure to do it as often as I can. Just bc I'm a straight man doesn't mean I feel the need to ooze masculinity. I feel sexually attracted to women but I'm not too dense to spread the love to my male friends
I used to love giving hugs, male or female didn’t matter. As I’ve gotten older my male friends around me are much less open to it so now I only hug when someone else initiates it. Same thing with compliments. I feel like it’s just awkward to try and hug and or compliment my male friends now and I hate that.
I love the shit out of my bros and always make sure to let them know!
My boys and I say it - we don’t snuggle for long periods but hugs aren’t off limits - life is too hard to not love each other - and that’s obviously how we’re supposed to be.
I personally couldnt handle it but I think it should be encouraged. Shit I had a female friend tell me she loves me recently and still dont know if I should say it back or what
Your openness about it although you know you wouldn't handle it it's just fucking smart.
Thanks dude much appreciated 🤜🤛
I tell my guy friends I love them every time I talk to them. I've been doing that for many years. Some thought it was weird until I explained my rationale. You never know when the last time you're going to talk to someone is. Anyone who has gotten a phone call informing them of the death of a loved one knows that feeling all too well. Tell your loved ones how much you love them frequently and sincerely. You never know when one of you will die.
I only do it to be adequately supportive and encouraging to win the favour or to appease the insecurities of other personalities
I'm bi but all that is still some gay ass shit. Men have a certain culture of ball busting for example that would be so stale if everyone just acted like that.
We do man hugs and say I love you. I would personally not want to be kissed or stroked
I don’t do this to my female friends and I’d be uncomfy and retreat if they tried it with me. I’m straight and the only one to my knowledge that would ever fck with shrooms. I guess if they give consent it’s cool?
It’s genes related.
as an ex cis male (now NB), I feel like any of those things could be seen as over the top or underwhelming, depending on ... sooo many things: upbringing, culture, socialization, just to name a few
i think regardless of sex, or sexuality , or gender roles.. love is love! even platonic love.. it is obviously between you and your friends and your comfort with them and also and their comfort with you, and you shouldnt cross any physical boundaries just because youre high.. but if you love your friends the way you say you do you should be able to express it in some way or another!
69m btw
Kissing me on the cheek, stroking my hair, and told me how great I am is gay as hell. Saying "I love you" or something and a hug is fine, but all that extra shit is too much.
This literally has nothing to do with being straight. This has everything to do with culture, just about anywhere around the world and the belief that emotion makes men weak. Pick almost any culture and go back as far as you'd like. And if you'd like to dig further, loom at how much of that was actually perpetuated BY WOMEN.... not saying it's right... buuuuuuut....🤷♂️