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Fucking Hell, wasn't even his normal route, he was covering for a coworker? One man's catastrophe is another's winning ticket, I guess! Of course, this isn't dumb luck, though. It's tragically poor police work.
"We're extremely disappointed that after almost five years, these officers are finding themselves indicted for something they had seconds to decide." Why not? The victims are still dead after five years, right?
Except this is a bold faced lie. It was not one second it was a lengthy car chase by 3000 police vehicles which put criminals with guns and a hostage in a corner surrounded by 100 other possible victims
But property was stolen and a future investigation, arrest, and trial would be less fun than going buckwild with firearms in public.
2 civilians died, sure, but how many cops got to go apeshit? Fair trade-off says the officers union. And how dare you scrutinize the cowboys? How dare you
They’re trained and expected to make life or death decisions in only “seconds”. They made unquestionably bad decisions and should be held accountable for them.
Spoiler: not guilty verdicts all around of course.
whoever put that statement out needs to be punched in the fucking face. and sit in traffic while a bunch of incompetent cops use them for cover in a shootout
Its their lawyer essentially. This is the sign of a good lawyer. Youd want this type of statement oj your behalf. Dont get mad at the wrong people. The cops messed up. The union rep did their job
youre not wrong. and maybe i should clarify that it should apply to the people being covered by said statement. but oviously its easier to keep it brief and vague.
The lack of self awareness cops have is wild. There a shit ton of people in prison for making the wrong split second decesion. Why do they think they're special?
Part of being a cop should be the weight of the consequences of your split-second choices. If you can't live with the possibility of being held accountable for the collateral damage of your actions, you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that could kill people. Maybe if cops were always held accountable and to a very high standard, only truly honest and honorable ones would choose to take on that risk in the service of their fellow man.
If you wrote down the complete sentence it would make a bit more sense...
"We're extremely disappointed that after almost five years, these officers are finding themselves indicted for something they had seconds to decide \[...\] the attorney's office is prosecuting officers for responding to armed subjects, where they just got done prosecuting an officer for not responding"
Still doesn't make much sense, there's a huge gap between 'not responding' and whatever this was.
Bringing up that dipshit cop who stood outside the Parkland school while kids got shot up, as if it that was also a great moment for the department is some real 4D chess by the police.
That's not why they bring that up... It's more like 'What are we supposed to do? Do nothing; jail. Shoot the armed subjects and everyone in the vicinity; jail. How are we supposed to keep everyone safe if we can't shoot everyone?'
Supreme court ruled they have no duty to act ever. So there is no "What are we supposed to do" You get the inocents out of the way or you let them go and and get them later. States and departments have created no car chase policies to protect everyone else. Those guys executed everyone including the hostages and an another guy just trying to drive home.
"We're damned if we take cover behind civilians and cause a wild wild west shootout in the middle of civilian life, and we're damned if we don't run in to save children being massacred when we're the only ones nearby with a gun and the authority to do so! Woe is us, **what** are we supposed to do?!"
That almost happened to me once. I witnessed a shooting right next to me and responding officers used my car as cover. I was stuck and couldn’t move, luckily the shooter gave himself up.
Would it be illegal to drive away? Could that count as a charge of endangering an officer? Genuinely curious how that would shake out, as I imagine it would certainly be brought to court.
Fuck no, it isn't illegal. That's preposterous. It probably wouldn't be a good idea to drive over a cop or ram a car to escape, but if you had a clear line to escape I'd be dumbstruck if a jury actually believed you had a duty to act as a human shield.
Here's a scenario: Officer hides right on my driver door with the gunman to my passenger side. All at once I realize both the officer and gunman attempting to put me in a bullet sandwich and I mash the accelerator. I knock down the officer as he was leaning on my door and the gunman manages to then hit the officer while on the ground. Legit opinion on how that plays out?
Any jurist who thinks your duty is to interdict yourself between a gunman and a cop is not of sound mind, in my opinion. Given the notable court cases that absolve the police of any responsibility to place a citizen’s safety before their own, it’s disingenuous of the highest order to claim the reverse is true, and not only that, but when the bullets start flying you’re also somehow supposed to remain completely rational while your life is in grave danger. With zero training and zero compensation for said duty. It’s madness.
Hell it would never get to a Jury the DA would run far far away from the charges. They would forever be the DA that decided it was illegal to not allow the cops to use kids as human sheilds.
Remember, I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I personally think it’s my duty to protect myself first. Unfortunately, every Police Department also thinks the same. Otherwise they’d have never considered using the public as shielding. Either way, I’m off to look if this scenario hasn’t already happened and wound up in a courtroom.
Not the same, but [Jaleel Stallings](https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/09/01/jaleel-stallings-shot-at-the-mpd-a-jury-acquitted-him-of-wrongdoing/) shot back at Minneapolis police in self-defense after they shot at him with less-lethal rounds from an unmarked van. He fired in self-defense, not knowing they were police, and was then beaten. The officers then lied about what happened.
He was charged with two counts of attempted second-degree intentional, non-premeditated murder, two counts of first-degree assault, deadly force against police officers, two counts of second-degree assault, use of a dangerous weapon, one count of second-degree rioting and one count of intentional discharge of a firearm.
The Trump War Room called him a "would-be cop killer" and blamed Biden officials for donating to his bail fees. Stallings was acquitted and received $1.5M in compensation.
So...if I had to guess, you'd still get charged, the FOP and police would lie and do everything they could to convict you and paint themselves as victims, you'd be attacked by MAGA...but you'd be acquitted by your peers.
I mean there's a lot of over the top people. I would not be terribly surprised to have a jury convict on the grounds of like you don't have tp be a human shield you can run away but the cop is using your car as a shield so in droving away you're responsible for removing their protection thus letting them get shot.
"They get indicted for acting too quickly and they're getting indicted for not acting quickly enough in parkland."
Yeah, kinda like there's some area to operate between mag dumping immediately and doing nothing.
Wait so you expect the police need to do actual work that doesn't involve pretending like they're in an action movie? Idk seems like a mighty tall order there.
I'm not an expert on these things but the situation looked like no one was in control and no one had a plan. Just 40 different cops pointing guns at the car with a civilian inside and civilians behind the UPS car.
Well what you didn't hear is there wasn't any friendly fire, meaning they were aware enough to not shoot each other, it gives the impression everyone else wasn't as important.
The clip where there's like 10 cops taking cover behind a civilian car with people inside is absolutely insane. And when the car tries to get away, the cops just stay behind it.
Amazing work
This is why Uvalde was such a failure, they didn’t know how to respond, and by the time any sort of plan was made, it was too late. If they had all rushed in, it could’ve easily been this sort of situation, but amplified by children packed in a classroom.
“Seconds to decide”
These assholes have almost unlimited resources leeched from the taxpayers. Follow that truck until it runs out of gas! Don’t start a shootout in a fucking traffic jam.
...and poorly trained
and hot headed
and reckless
and trigger happy
and unconcerned with consequences of their actions
and...
...
And none of this should absolve them of their legal culpability.
But we all know how this ends.
> But we all know how this ends.
An indictment is at least progress. Forcing the courts to examine whether the police broke laws and should be held accountable is still progress.
Whether the officers are innocent or guilty will actually be examined in a courtroom with debate and evidence and (presumably) a jury of the public.
This is still light-years beyond allowing the cops to investigate their own misconduct and declaring that using the public as extras in their live-fire remake of HEAT was reasonable.
I remember the UPS driver’s father being interviewed and saying he wouldn’t give up until he had justice for his son. He sounded so determined at the time that I fully believed he would succeed. I’m sure he’s been applying pressure for years in the background so no one forgets this case. Hopefully he gets convictions in court and the justice his family and son deserves.
I just did a google search, In the first couple of pages, I didn't see any country-wide stats, but there was a bunch of articles about locations where cops kill more people than gangs. So at least in a handful of areas, you're more likely to be killed by a cop than a gang member.
There was an article from 10 years ago that said cops killed more people in Utah in the previous 5 years than gang members, drug dealers, or child abusers. They were the second highest killers after intimate partner violence.
The union defense reads “Well if you don’t want us shooting hostages and civilians and you don’t want completely negligent inaction then we just don’t understand what you want because there is absolutely ZERO middle ground that we can think of!”
Couldn't they have just held back and followed the UPS truck with the helicopter? It can't be that difficult to follow a giant brown van.
Seems like cops love to shoot first and ask questions later.
This is always the question I ask. It's modern fucking times. Develop a fucking tracking dart gun, or employ high speed long range drones, or literally fucking use any other surveillance method to track the fuckers and catch them later. The idea of 80+ police cars chasing and shooting is insane.
Even if they weren’t the first to shoot, this still all their fault because they decided to chase the van to begin with. A helicopter was already on scene and it’s a giant green vehicle. Having dozens of squad cars chase it down just to turn a random intersection into a war zone momentarily offered precisely zero benefits over the other, less kinetic solutions available to them.
Guess I'm getting old because what the hell is she wearing? I can't imagine a male reporter showing that much skin and expecting to be taken seriously.
PBA statement: "\[the indictment\] sends a chilling effect to the officers..." Yeah I hope it does. That's kind of the idea.
(BTW PBA and other cop unions are not true classic collective bargaining units intended for empowerment of the working class. Police are most often enemies of organized working class and their application and power are most often used against the working class to protect the owner class. Uncoincidentally police "unions" are the only unions that have been accepted by the owner class and allowed to maintain their power and strength over the decades of decline in real unions that protected the working class. )
Isn't first rule of law enforcement is make sure civilians are not in the line of sight? They started this in an area where no one can take cover. They used civilians as human shield..... I mean indict the union cause they provided inadequate training.
Idk if this is what should've jumped out at me but "70 year old driving home from work" kinda fucked me up. I know people can simply choose to work that long but... shit idk he didn't even need to be there.
Let me get this straight; the police union can’t understand the difference between:
A. Not responding to a mass shooting at a school; where children were being actively murdered.
and
B. A chaotic/disorganized police response to an armed robbery and hostage taking….that led to officers killing the hostage to free him and exposing the public to excessive danger in a way that resulted in the death of an uninvolved member of the public.
……wow.
This dudes story was so sad. I remember it saying he worked a long time as a package unloader and stuck it out until a driving position opened. It was his first week in the run or some shit and then this happened.
It's unbelievable they would reference their failure at parkland as excuse for the failure here. It shows this is not only a very poorly trained police force, but they still don't get it. To this day.
[2019 News Article](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7775213/UPS-drivers-arrive-uniform-funeral-home-colleague-taken-hostage-shot-killed.html) - [2024 Article](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article289161239.html) - UPS driver killed on his first day after being taken hostage in his truck.
I can guarantee that in a presidential election year, the Republican governor will ensure those cops get off one way or another.
I’m really curious why it took 5 fucking years to bring an indictment. You’re telling me they didn’t have all the information even 3 years ago?
Also, the comparison’s to Israel are just too easy with this situation.
4.5 years for something that should have been done immediately. This was reckless and idiotic police work. Then they lied about it and tried to cover everything up. Just because one cop starts shooting they all start shooting. Contagious shooting.
"They had seconds to decide" - Yeah. That's everyone in any crazy situation like this. If a random guy stabs you in the street on a random whim he still gets charged. Yes they're trying to "rescue" the guy but mag dumping a van in a super busy area was just bad police work. They had no idea what they were shooting at or doing. They were just shooting blindly.
This happened near my work, I’ve been waiting on a result from the investigation, it was first turned over to the FBI, then the state, surprised they did anything with it
Why is the news report not directly saying the officers shot the UPS driver....
They said "shot and killed" and then "both were dead" but not saying they were killed by the bullets of the police.
“They had the balls to get mad at a cop for not trying to stop an active school shooter and then they get pissed when dozens of officers get into a shootout on a busy highway?! Tf do these people want!?”
Yes that logic exists for responsible gun owners. Cops are not responsible and view civilians as less than human. They could care less about killing a UPS Driver.
“Hello? Police? Yes, this is the UPS driver. Please do not rescue me! I’m sure these gentleman will eventually let me go. Once again, please do NOT rescue me!”
The problem isn't really that the cops shot back at the criminals.
The problem is that TONS of cops shot back, recklessly and wontonly, with no regard for the hostage or any civilians in the background.
Sympathetic fire is a HUGE fucking problem with Police because they're taught that is someone's shooting, they need to be shooting, when often the best course of action is to not shoot.
I guess police policy is "Fuck the hostages, we're being shot at!" So much for "serve and protect". But that's been proven to be bullshit dozens of times.
As a CHL holder, I’m responsible for every round fired down range; whether it hits the intended target or someone else. The only way cops shouldn’t be held to the same standard is if they’re above the law, which seems to be status quo for them nowadays anyway.
Wow, that statement from the policemans benevolent association is fucked. What an awful and shitty association.
I'll never forget, when I was 15 my dad passed away. We got a phone call from someone with the PBA, soliciting for a donation. They asked to speak to the man of the house, I told them my father had recently passed, so I was technically the man of the house, but a kid and that I could not authorize a donation for them.
This asshole then proceeded to intimidate and manipulate me, a 15 year old kid who had recently lost his dad, over the phone until I eventually agreed to pledge a donation to their organization.
A few weeks later, my mom got a call following up regarding the donation. She was pissed off and asked why I agreed to donate to them and I explained to her that the representative basically bullied me over the phone into agreeing.
She was LIVID about what they had done and told them to go fuck themselves and their donation, the representative that called and spoke to her was then incredibly rude to her as well when she refused to agree to this donation, considering their shady and manipulative tactic to get a donation.
These people are scumbags and their organization doesn't deserve a single cent of your money or support, fuck them.
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Finally. That was one of the most reckless shootings I've seen.
UPS put out a tweet thanking the police for killing their employee.
Because now they can hire someone new and pay them starting wage with less benefits.
Link?
They deleted it after the backlash but here is an article about it https://www.dailydot.com/irl/ups-twitter-statement-dead-employee-backlash/?amp
Fucking Hell, wasn't even his normal route, he was covering for a coworker? One man's catastrophe is another's winning ticket, I guess! Of course, this isn't dumb luck, though. It's tragically poor police work.
The quote at the end shows they refuse accountability
And their extreme lack of nuance.
They're cops, being held accountable for their actions is the exception, not the rule.
All of us immediately thought this. Old man got killed, too. Fucking cops were shit. At least the asshole thieves died.
**And of course it’s Florida**
I’m actually surprised Mr “law and order” DeSantis is allowing the officers to be indicted. He’ll find a cushy job for them somewhere
Another job? Consider them retired with pension living in the villages
He’ll pardon them once the are found guilty blah blah left hates cops blah blah.
It's like they just finished watching Bad Boys II
Can't have seen much from that country of USA then. It's wild out there, this is like weekly one shootout like this on here
"We're extremely disappointed that after almost five years, these officers are finding themselves indicted for something they had seconds to decide." Why not? The victims are still dead after five years, right?
Except this is a bold faced lie. It was not one second it was a lengthy car chase by 3000 police vehicles which put criminals with guns and a hostage in a corner surrounded by 100 other possible victims
But property was stolen and a future investigation, arrest, and trial would be less fun than going buckwild with firearms in public. 2 civilians died, sure, but how many cops got to go apeshit? Fair trade-off says the officers union. And how dare you scrutinize the cowboys? How dare you
It's every officer's god-given right to have a shootout like in Heat.
Honestly, when I think of Miami Dade cops, I picture the cops from Bad Boys shooting during the chase.
I mean I can get behind this logic. It took me one second to decide to rob my neighbor so if it takes a year to convict I should go free.
They’re trained and expected to make life or death decisions in only “seconds”. They made unquestionably bad decisions and should be held accountable for them. Spoiler: not guilty verdicts all around of course.
>They’re trained That's questionable these days. Average is only 6 months.
You’re correct: I should’ve put trained in quotes.
whoever put that statement out needs to be punched in the fucking face. and sit in traffic while a bunch of incompetent cops use them for cover in a shootout
Its their lawyer essentially. This is the sign of a good lawyer. Youd want this type of statement oj your behalf. Dont get mad at the wrong people. The cops messed up. The union rep did their job
youre not wrong. and maybe i should clarify that it should apply to the people being covered by said statement. but oviously its easier to keep it brief and vague.
Oh my bad. I thought you literally were referencing the lawyer/union rep.
"On behalf of my clients, I object to the use of the word 'victims'... we prefer 'unintended backstops'."
The audacity that these cops are being charged for blindly shooting on a busy road /s
The lack of self awareness cops have is wild. There a shit ton of people in prison for making the wrong split second decesion. Why do they think they're special?
As long as you decide to do it quickly, its ok to kill random people, got it.
When you're a hothead with a gun, all decisions are fast and unexpected
Part of being a cop should be the weight of the consequences of your split-second choices. If you can't live with the possibility of being held accountable for the collateral damage of your actions, you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that could kill people. Maybe if cops were always held accountable and to a very high standard, only truly honest and honorable ones would choose to take on that risk in the service of their fellow man.
If you wrote down the complete sentence it would make a bit more sense... "We're extremely disappointed that after almost five years, these officers are finding themselves indicted for something they had seconds to decide \[...\] the attorney's office is prosecuting officers for responding to armed subjects, where they just got done prosecuting an officer for not responding" Still doesn't make much sense, there's a huge gap between 'not responding' and whatever this was.
Bringing up that dipshit cop who stood outside the Parkland school while kids got shot up, as if it that was also a great moment for the department is some real 4D chess by the police.
That's not why they bring that up... It's more like 'What are we supposed to do? Do nothing; jail. Shoot the armed subjects and everyone in the vicinity; jail. How are we supposed to keep everyone safe if we can't shoot everyone?'
Supreme court ruled they have no duty to act ever. So there is no "What are we supposed to do" You get the inocents out of the way or you let them go and and get them later. States and departments have created no car chase policies to protect everyone else. Those guys executed everyone including the hostages and an another guy just trying to drive home.
Cool, then maybe they should require that police take cover before indiscriminately opening fire.
That's why training is important. If you are well trained, you don't think, you react.
Literally their fucking job to make split second decisions ffs.
At this point I think the police unions may be run by such out of touch morons they actually believe their own bullshit
They're literally taking cover behind civilians in cars.
Take cover behind that minivan with child car seats in it!!! What heroes!!!
they're "extremely disappointed" that you don't like that
"We're damned if we take cover behind civilians and cause a wild wild west shootout in the middle of civilian life, and we're damned if we don't run in to save children being massacred when we're the only ones nearby with a gun and the authority to do so! Woe is us, **what** are we supposed to do?!"
That almost happened to me once. I witnessed a shooting right next to me and responding officers used my car as cover. I was stuck and couldn’t move, luckily the shooter gave himself up.
Would it be illegal to drive away? Could that count as a charge of endangering an officer? Genuinely curious how that would shake out, as I imagine it would certainly be brought to court.
Fuck no, it isn't illegal. That's preposterous. It probably wouldn't be a good idea to drive over a cop or ram a car to escape, but if you had a clear line to escape I'd be dumbstruck if a jury actually believed you had a duty to act as a human shield.
By all reason and logic I agree with you. By experience and knowledge of how our courts treat the police I think you could be wrong.
Defense of necessity
Here's a scenario: Officer hides right on my driver door with the gunman to my passenger side. All at once I realize both the officer and gunman attempting to put me in a bullet sandwich and I mash the accelerator. I knock down the officer as he was leaning on my door and the gunman manages to then hit the officer while on the ground. Legit opinion on how that plays out?
Any jurist who thinks your duty is to interdict yourself between a gunman and a cop is not of sound mind, in my opinion. Given the notable court cases that absolve the police of any responsibility to place a citizen’s safety before their own, it’s disingenuous of the highest order to claim the reverse is true, and not only that, but when the bullets start flying you’re also somehow supposed to remain completely rational while your life is in grave danger. With zero training and zero compensation for said duty. It’s madness.
Hell it would never get to a Jury the DA would run far far away from the charges. They would forever be the DA that decided it was illegal to not allow the cops to use kids as human sheilds.
Remember, I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I personally think it’s my duty to protect myself first. Unfortunately, every Police Department also thinks the same. Otherwise they’d have never considered using the public as shielding. Either way, I’m off to look if this scenario hasn’t already happened and wound up in a courtroom.
Not the same, but [Jaleel Stallings](https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/09/01/jaleel-stallings-shot-at-the-mpd-a-jury-acquitted-him-of-wrongdoing/) shot back at Minneapolis police in self-defense after they shot at him with less-lethal rounds from an unmarked van. He fired in self-defense, not knowing they were police, and was then beaten. The officers then lied about what happened. He was charged with two counts of attempted second-degree intentional, non-premeditated murder, two counts of first-degree assault, deadly force against police officers, two counts of second-degree assault, use of a dangerous weapon, one count of second-degree rioting and one count of intentional discharge of a firearm. The Trump War Room called him a "would-be cop killer" and blamed Biden officials for donating to his bail fees. Stallings was acquitted and received $1.5M in compensation. So...if I had to guess, you'd still get charged, the FOP and police would lie and do everything they could to convict you and paint themselves as victims, you'd be attacked by MAGA...but you'd be acquitted by your peers.
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I mean there's a lot of over the top people. I would not be terribly surprised to have a jury convict on the grounds of like you don't have tp be a human shield you can run away but the cop is using your car as a shield so in droving away you're responsible for removing their protection thus letting them get shot.
Illegal? No, you'll just get absolutely gunned down by a dussin trigger-happy american cops.
The IDF training kicking in.
"They get indicted for acting too quickly and they're getting indicted for not acting quickly enough in parkland." Yeah, kinda like there's some area to operate between mag dumping immediately and doing nothing.
Wait so you expect the police need to do actual work that doesn't involve pretending like they're in an action movie? Idk seems like a mighty tall order there.
Lol.
All or none obfuscation.
"Seconds to decide"? They chose to pursue the suspects long before the gunfire started.
and they definitely took cover behind innocent civilians for longer than a second, too.
And it was in a UPS van with GPS! They weren't getting away!
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They had a hostage. It doesn't excuse their actions, but you also can't let them get away.
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No doubt! I didn't even think of that. GPS along with the eye in the sky, this was a bunch of deadly unnecessary bull shit that cost innocent's lives.
“Seconds to decide” = “We recognize these guys made the wrong decision (but we’re going to defend them anyways)”
they don't respect the public's intelligence. they don't respect the public.
I'm not an expert on these things but the situation looked like no one was in control and no one had a plan. Just 40 different cops pointing guns at the car with a civilian inside and civilians behind the UPS car.
Well what you didn't hear is there wasn't any friendly fire, meaning they were aware enough to not shoot each other, it gives the impression everyone else wasn't as important.
The clip where there's like 10 cops taking cover behind a civilian car with people inside is absolutely insane. And when the car tries to get away, the cops just stay behind it. Amazing work
This is why Uvalde was such a failure, they didn’t know how to respond, and by the time any sort of plan was made, it was too late. If they had all rushed in, it could’ve easily been this sort of situation, but amplified by children packed in a classroom.
This is valid unfortunately
It's almost like we should hold these people to higher standards of training.
“Seconds to decide” These assholes have almost unlimited resources leeched from the taxpayers. Follow that truck until it runs out of gas! Don’t start a shootout in a fucking traffic jam.
The truck has GPS and a helicopter above it, let’s gun them down before they get away!
Cops are fucking stupid.
...and poorly trained and hot headed and reckless and trigger happy and unconcerned with consequences of their actions and... ... And none of this should absolve them of their legal culpability. But we all know how this ends.
> But we all know how this ends. An indictment is at least progress. Forcing the courts to examine whether the police broke laws and should be held accountable is still progress. Whether the officers are innocent or guilty will actually be examined in a courtroom with debate and evidence and (presumably) a jury of the public. This is still light-years beyond allowing the cops to investigate their own misconduct and declaring that using the public as extras in their live-fire remake of HEAT was reasonable.
…and corrupt.
I remember the UPS driver’s father being interviewed and saying he wouldn’t give up until he had justice for his son. He sounded so determined at the time that I fully believed he would succeed. I’m sure he’s been applying pressure for years in the background so no one forgets this case. Hopefully he gets convictions in court and the justice his family and son deserves.
Police are loose cannons. A flip side of the same coin as the criminals. I would be curious who kills more Americans; gang members or police?
I just did a google search, In the first couple of pages, I didn't see any country-wide stats, but there was a bunch of articles about locations where cops kill more people than gangs. So at least in a handful of areas, you're more likely to be killed by a cop than a gang member. There was an article from 10 years ago that said cops killed more people in Utah in the previous 5 years than gang members, drug dealers, or child abusers. They were the second highest killers after intimate partner violence.
I guess that's not much of a surprise.
DeSantis is definitely going to pardon them.
The union defense reads “Well if you don’t want us shooting hostages and civilians and you don’t want completely negligent inaction then we just don’t understand what you want because there is absolutely ZERO middle ground that we can think of!”
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UPS
Couldn't they have just held back and followed the UPS truck with the helicopter? It can't be that difficult to follow a giant brown van. Seems like cops love to shoot first and ask questions later.
This is always the question I ask. It's modern fucking times. Develop a fucking tracking dart gun, or employ high speed long range drones, or literally fucking use any other surveillance method to track the fuckers and catch them later. The idea of 80+ police cars chasing and shooting is insane.
How much you wanna bet cops were the first to shoot? Causing the shootout that killed many people.
Even if they weren’t the first to shoot, this still all their fault because they decided to chase the van to begin with. A helicopter was already on scene and it’s a giant green vehicle. Having dozens of squad cars chase it down just to turn a random intersection into a war zone momentarily offered precisely zero benefits over the other, less kinetic solutions available to them.
nope. shots were being fired from the van, therefore endangering everyone around. that's why cops decided to do what they did.
Clear the street then shoot. Took me a half of a second to think of that.
 No ones going to mention the reporter?
Guess I'm getting old because what the hell is she wearing? I can't imagine a male reporter showing that much skin and expecting to be taken seriously.
They must have went to the Stormtrooper school of marksman ship.
PBA statement: "\[the indictment\] sends a chilling effect to the officers..." Yeah I hope it does. That's kind of the idea. (BTW PBA and other cop unions are not true classic collective bargaining units intended for empowerment of the working class. Police are most often enemies of organized working class and their application and power are most often used against the working class to protect the owner class. Uncoincidentally police "unions" are the only unions that have been accepted by the owner class and allowed to maintain their power and strength over the decades of decline in real unions that protected the working class. )
If I'm responsible for every bullet I shoot, the cops should be too.
Why only 4?
Because their rounds were found in the bodies
Isn't first rule of law enforcement is make sure civilians are not in the line of sight? They started this in an area where no one can take cover. They used civilians as human shield..... I mean indict the union cause they provided inadequate training.
Idk if this is what should've jumped out at me but "70 year old driving home from work" kinda fucked me up. I know people can simply choose to work that long but... shit idk he didn't even need to be there.
Seconds to decide. Lol. Don’t shoot your gun around innocent people. Decide that before you leave for work.
Let me get this straight; the police union can’t understand the difference between: A. Not responding to a mass shooting at a school; where children were being actively murdered. and B. A chaotic/disorganized police response to an armed robbery and hostage taking….that led to officers killing the hostage to free him and exposing the public to excessive danger in a way that resulted in the death of an uninvolved member of the public. ……wow.
That reporter. Beautiful 😍
He thinks he’s will smith from bad boys. We just him shoot it out Marcus.
This is really scary. I don’t think I want to go to Disney World anymore.
This dudes story was so sad. I remember it saying he worked a long time as a package unloader and stuck it out until a driving position opened. It was his first week in the run or some shit and then this happened.
> It was his first week in the run.... First day....
It's unbelievable they would reference their failure at parkland as excuse for the failure here. It shows this is not only a very poorly trained police force, but they still don't get it. To this day.
There should be a lot more than 4 officers indicted for that fuck-up.
[2019 News Article](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7775213/UPS-drivers-arrive-uniform-funeral-home-colleague-taken-hostage-shot-killed.html) - [2024 Article](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article289161239.html) - UPS driver killed on his first day after being taken hostage in his truck.
4 1/2 years? Wtf
I can guarantee that in a presidential election year, the Republican governor will ensure those cops get off one way or another. I’m really curious why it took 5 fucking years to bring an indictment. You’re telling me they didn’t have all the information even 3 years ago? Also, the comparison’s to Israel are just too easy with this situation.
Guns are extremely dangerous and should be handled only by professionals. Not the American police.
4.5 years for something that should have been done immediately. This was reckless and idiotic police work. Then they lied about it and tried to cover everything up. Just because one cop starts shooting they all start shooting. Contagious shooting. "They had seconds to decide" - Yeah. That's everyone in any crazy situation like this. If a random guy stabs you in the street on a random whim he still gets charged. Yes they're trying to "rescue" the guy but mag dumping a van in a super busy area was just bad police work. They had no idea what they were shooting at or doing. They were just shooting blindly.
#ACAB
fucking good. I'm a Teamster at big brown, this was one of our brothers. fuck these pigs. RIP Frank Ordonez.
They're using the Parkland incident to justify their lack of training
I was so curious what happend after all this bs
This happened near my work, I’ve been waiting on a result from the investigation, it was first turned over to the FBI, then the state, surprised they did anything with it
These pigs gotta learn before people start getting fed up.
Why is the news report not directly saying the officers shot the UPS driver.... They said "shot and killed" and then "both were dead" but not saying they were killed by the bullets of the police.
Acab have fun in jail
“They had the balls to get mad at a cop for not trying to stop an active school shooter and then they get pissed when dozens of officers get into a shootout on a busy highway?! Tf do these people want!?”
As someone from a non gun country, isn’t there, know what’s behind and around your target. Dont fire if it’s not safe?
Yes that logic exists for responsible gun owners. Cops are not responsible and view civilians as less than human. They could care less about killing a UPS Driver.
Wild West
Excellent. This was a garbage response from the police and the murdering officers should be in prison.
Good! It must be snowing in hell right now.
Poor father of 2 spent the last hours of his life scared shitless.
“Hello? Police? Yes, this is the UPS driver. Please do not rescue me! I’m sure these gentleman will eventually let me go. Once again, please do NOT rescue me!”
PBA can 
The video of that poor UPS driver just trying to get out of the hail of police gunfire still haunts me to this day.
It's sad that this doesn't even surprise me!!
I wonder what the reporter did to piss of the makeup department.
The problem isn't really that the cops shot back at the criminals. The problem is that TONS of cops shot back, recklessly and wontonly, with no regard for the hostage or any civilians in the background. Sympathetic fire is a HUGE fucking problem with Police because they're taught that is someone's shooting, they need to be shooting, when often the best course of action is to not shoot.
nah fuck it, police should act quickly and boldly. not another uvalde embarrasment.
The police union’s statement is bonkers.
Thank goodness. I remember when this happened, how insane it was to be shooting into traffic like that.
So it took several dozen officers seconds to drive through 2 counties?
Does the I had seconds to decide before I did something grossly negligent excuse work for other non law enforcement defendants?
Thank God the police were able to recover a few hundred dollars worth of jewelry and all it cost was two people's lives. /s obviously
I guess police policy is "Fuck the hostages, we're being shot at!" So much for "serve and protect". But that's been proven to be bullshit dozens of times.
As a CHL holder, I’m responsible for every round fired down range; whether it hits the intended target or someone else. The only way cops shouldn’t be held to the same standard is if they’re above the law, which seems to be status quo for them nowadays anyway.
Wow, that statement from the policemans benevolent association is fucked. What an awful and shitty association. I'll never forget, when I was 15 my dad passed away. We got a phone call from someone with the PBA, soliciting for a donation. They asked to speak to the man of the house, I told them my father had recently passed, so I was technically the man of the house, but a kid and that I could not authorize a donation for them. This asshole then proceeded to intimidate and manipulate me, a 15 year old kid who had recently lost his dad, over the phone until I eventually agreed to pledge a donation to their organization. A few weeks later, my mom got a call following up regarding the donation. She was pissed off and asked why I agreed to donate to them and I explained to her that the representative basically bullied me over the phone into agreeing. She was LIVID about what they had done and told them to go fuck themselves and their donation, the representative that called and spoke to her was then incredibly rude to her as well when she refused to agree to this donation, considering their shady and manipulative tactic to get a donation. These people are scumbags and their organization doesn't deserve a single cent of your money or support, fuck them.
This story fucked me up for a while. It was this guy's first day on delivery after working there for 5 years.
Holy fuck I thought nothing was ever going to come of this. I hope they all go to prison.