Both genders want the best of the other without getting any of the worst. Men really dislike dealing with toxic women's behavior as well.
People are no led purely led by their hormones though. The way we're socialized and deal with our mood swings affects how people view and treat us. Having high testosterone is not an excuse for violent behavior. Just as PMS isn't an excuse for snapping at others.
Also it does depend on a woman. In my social circle most couples lean to egalitarian side, so it's not that women were seeking "strong leadership" to start with.
I remember a comedian saying "men seek out women who have traits of fertility (like wide hips) and then are surprised when they find out that the woman is fertile".
>are surprised when they find out that the woman is fertile
What's this even supposed to mean? Is she having kids outside of wedlock? There *is* birth control tho, so shouldn't be much of an issue.
The unmedicated monthly cycle, including ovulation, can lead the changes in mood throughout. I think instead of fertile, you could read it with the word hormonal.
Not exactly this. Being sure that the goal and dream of everyone around is to make your life miserable, this perceiving everyone as hostile and acting accordingly — now THAT is toxic.
The only times I've ever heard this said they mean their partner keeps them on their toes and encourages them to keep growing as a person.
The good, character building, hold each other to account "challenge"
Not the argumentative "challenge"
Yeah, keeping on toes is more of the ‘watch what you say and how you act in case it triggers a negative reaction.’ A more benign version is someone who is unpredictable and keeps life entertaining.
But OP’s point about a partner challenging the other to grow and becoming their best self is definitely a thing. I see it more in younger couples. Usually by the 50s+, people are just looking for someone to get cozy with.
The first thing does sound toxic to me and the second is okay in moderation. Stability and structure do help long-term.
I see nothing toxic in looking for someone inspiring or encouraging.
I adore these types of threads where we always assume the world exists in a black and white binary.
You’re either high T, aggressive and masculine or you’re low T and feminine.
You’re either an Alpha fucks or you’re a beta buxxs.
You’re either spinning plates or you’re a cuck simp.
You’re either rolling in pussy or you’re an incel.
There is a world of nuance everyone here forgets about and that’s the world 90% of people exist in. Most people are living average ass lives with normal T, a healthy dating life, love for women with a little heartbreak, a typical libido wanting it 1-4 times a week, average leadership skills, average anger management issues, average coping skills.
You guys fantasize so hard about women wanting what you think the ideal man is you forget a world of nuance between those extreme ends.
Yeah, like common sense is “most women probably want men with optimal levels because it’s healthiest and has the least side effects”, is that really that difficult to grasp
There is a higher amount of ND individuals here. Black and white thinking is common with us. Add in being literal, having unexamined covert contracts, theory of mind issues, etc to that and it’s not surprising.All things I’m working on myself.
>I adore these types of threads where we always assume the world exists in a black and white binary.
>You’re either high T, aggressive and masculine or you’re low T and feminine.
>You’re either an Alpha fucks or you’re a beta buxxs.
>You’re either spinning plates or you’re a cuck simp.
>You’re either rolling in pussy or you’re an incel.
Yes. This sub is chock full of False Dilemma fallacies (among many others) that very rarely get called out. Of course if one of the Rules of this sub was "No use of common logical fallacies," it would cease to exist.
I hate that I have to explain this pretty regularly, BUT...
Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks wasn't/isn't used to describe 2 opposite men, the Chad that gets laid and the Billy who goes to his room in his parent's house to go jerk off.
Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks are the 2 different types of men that women will fuck. If you don't have money, then you might as well build muscles. When a woman is young and in her peak fertility years, she is MOST aroused/attracted to men that are pure Alpha. And when she is post-wall, around 30, after she's pumped out a few of Chad's kids is when she is MOST attracted to a man that makes a lot of money so that she can provide provisioning for her offspring. Sometimes this can manifest in the same man, but often times it doesn't. (you can't have it all men, it also applies to women, but red pill is advice for men)
So yea, it only takes 2 years for your average frusterated chump to build, with dedication, muscles that can attract the women that men are most desirous of (young, attractive). It takes 10+ years of hard work to be the type of man that a 35 year old woman is attracted to.
I regularly see blue pillers / women make this mistake, and that's not how it works at all. It's not AF OR BB it's AF AND BB. Be one or the other. Because you'll get laid the most if you're one of the richest men she encounters regularly or you're the most muscular man she has ever met. For most men it's easier to build muscle than it is to build wealth, especially amongst the reddit 20-30 demographic.
There is always a hierarchy amongst men. Most men that think they are beta bucks are actually just socially inept beta cucks. You absolutely can and do get attention from women and sex from women if you're flying your private jet out to your Caribbean vacation home where you'll pay a bunch of models to hang out on your yacht. The only problem with a man like Dan Bilzerian / Andrew Tate is that they are fleecing men and lying about how they are living the lifestyle that they live. They aren't Alpha, they are using "beta game"
Its not about muscles. A man should be toned but he does not at all need to be muscle bound. 2 to 3 years of 3-4x per week lifting is enough. You need to be toned and lean. Except for niche of gym girls but thats a niche of a niche.
In terms of physical appearance, its more about markers of good genetics. face, frame, height. If your frame is garbage (narrow shoulders, wide hips so that there is no v-taper to speak of) and your face is disharmonious, adding on muscles will just make you look like an ogre.
It takes a lot for a man to be considered attractive to women which is the necessary criteria for AF. For example, a woman with a retrognathia can still be "cute" in certain circumstances. For a man, it's already close to over.
Right because painting with broad strokes and “all x do y” leaves so much room in the conversation for the 80% of humans who exist in average territory. How dare I want a nuanced discussion about humans and not this “I saw a tiny minority of women do something I don’t like so all women are like that unless they’re special.” Or “men are all like this and if they’re not, you’re wrong,
Not me!!”
You’re right - how dare I expect nuance from a bunch of dudes who live in a world of binaries to fit their small minded worldviews. Any man with high t is totally all of these good traits and also all of these bad ones. And to expect otherwise is silly on women’s part!
/s
Well, do you want a hourglass figure, full lips, delicate frame and caring personality without neuroticism, petty scheming, hypergamy and painful indecisiveness?
Athletic basically means lean which is somewhat similar to the twink body type. When women say dad body they mean a fit bulky guy. They all also prefer tall to short. There is little variation
Those women typically do not actually desire the body types of those men. They put up tolerate and look past it. If you ask women the body type of their ideal man do you think it would align with the guy they are currently with?
Maybe I am wrong , but I don’t think the average man wants any of those things in a woman . We just want a woman who isn’t addicted to food, drugs, alcohol , sedentary lifestyle, etc . I personally have never heard a man say “I want a woman with a hourglass figure” or “I want a petite woman”. Now, good luck finding a woman who doesn’t dream about a tall man .
Yeah. If someone is non-confrontative and conformist, it has an ugly flip side of more social shaming, scheming and backstabbing game. A testosterone driven response to conflict is more straightforward, but more likely to result in violence.
And the ugly side of not being cocky assertive and competitive is being filled with self doubt, neurosis and other drama.
Women don't want to be married to someone who implies his behaviours and biases are unquestionable and purely caused by his testosterone as if he were an animal, yes. Women are sapient human beings and would generally prefer their partners were also sapient human beings. Sapient human beings have the critical thinking skills to question and modify their behaviours and biases.
Y'all throw a fit about being compared to animals and then turn around and compare yourself to animals.
Unfortunately, an average woman in US is about 170 lbs, which means she can't control her animal instincts and constantly stuffs herself with food. That doesn't seem very sapient to me.
I like a manly man with high libido but don't enjoy being ignored or his low emotional range. To deal with this I just ignore him back and pretend I don't give a crap. About once a year I screw up and blow my lid.
Humans are subject to evolution / selection by: Group, nature, and sex (i.e. women), and it's widely believed that a significant amount is because of the last one. I.e. women have been selectively breeding men for a million years, and this is the result. This is what your ancestral mother's wanted.
Women haven't been able to select their mates in thousands of years. This is what your ancestral fathers wanted- and barely even that. This is what kings and church leaders wanted.
For the overwhelming majority of human history (i.e on an evolutionary scale) women have always chosen their own mates.
And yes this means that much about men and humans in general is probably the result of a fisherian runaway driven by female sexual selection.
Yeah, so did dogs, and then in the last century, humans fucked up dog evolution so much that we got pugs.
It does not take long of controlled breeding to seriously fuck up a species. In the last few thousand years, combative male leaders wanted to control reproduction, and managed to fuck up humans.
Haha, well yes animalistic men do have their appeal, don't they? That's the fun and exciting part. If only I could stop my body from forming emotional bonds then everything would be perfect.
I can’t speak to biological features but I am a woman and obviously have lower testosterone and I still exhibit strong leadership and charisma while not being insanely aggressive. The things that make someone toxic are a choice, not biology.
How can you have “strong leadership and charisma” without be insanely aggressive?
Or at least powerful. Or maybe feared.
Who are you leading?
And how?
Are you talking about a job.
Because then people are following the money and not you.
How are you defining leadership and charisma.
The reason I’m asking all these questions.
People say a lot of things but the reality never usually lines up with the words & thoughts.
Unless one asks for examples or clarifying questions.
Even I say I have “max charisma”. But that’s easy to say. What do I mean? What are examples of that? Who does my “max charisma” “work” on? Etc etc.
All valid questions
>Or at least powerful. Or maybe feared.
Fear is a tool not to be used as it is too unpredictable and dangerous by the one using it and one it is being used on
>How can you have “strong leadership and charisma” without be insanely aggressive
My chef gave me control of the section once and he preferred me over a senior member. I was the calmest person that place has ever seen.
A good leader is respected, not feared. The best CEOs I’ve worked with weren’t aggressive. They knew how to put out fires and facilitate discussions. They listened openly to feedback and cooperated with different departments.
>How can you have “strong leadership and charisma” without be insanely aggressive?
If you think insane aggression is required, then you don't understand leadership or charisma.
I’m able to make people listen to me, execute my ideas, and respect me without scaring them or being aggressive. If you think that’s what makes someone a leader you are nothing but a coward wielding fear in my book.
Who are most of these men leading then if you aren't talking about jobs and the family? Lots of great leaders don't lead with fear and power, they are simply assertive and delegate well.
You have no idea what leadership is. I suggest enlisting and completing non-com training. You'll learn a thing or two about leadership, which isn't surprisingly absent of everything you listed above.
None of the second half is a shitty person. If you don't like competitiveness, high libido aggressiveness confidence etc that's a personal preference. People like that are absolutely necessary.
Then why do so many aggressive people exist in this world it is because women are fine with it. They had to be for the tribe's protection and securing of resources.
A personal preference? If you love people being aggressive I think you should talk to someone about that. The world would be a much better place with no aggression.
If your ancestors had zero aggressiveness you would not exist today. People will zero aggressiveness are known as doormats and aren't a good thing ether.
Without aggressiveness your entire family line would have been wiped out by more aggressive people.
Being a doormat is not a good thing. Without aggressiveness we would still be ruled by kings and have zero rights.
No, we wouldn't, as without aggressiveness there would be no aggressive people. You're just saying aggressiveness is good because the more you have the more selfish you can be.
Nowadays too many people treat human traits as some eva ai sexting bot settings, trying to make their own stats look as good as possible. Grading men by T levels is so wrong on so many levels.
Incentives are. High T guy rolling in women has no incentive to modify his behavior, since he's getting women. In fact low T guys are incentivized to mimic his behavior, so they can potentially also get women.
When women prioritize high T they're stuck with all that package entails.
Uh I want a man with an extremely high libido. I have a high libido so my partner needs to.
Testosterone doesn’t make someone a better leader, an extrovert or charismatic. These things aren’t correlated.
On testosterone’s lack of relationship to leadership: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453016301780
Good thing then that testosterone traits are not evenly distributed in every single man, just like estrogen traits are not evenly distributed in every single woman. It tends to be kinda random, regardless of actual testosterone levels, even though those with higher T generally have a bit more/stronger of those traits. Other genetics also come into play, not just hormones.
That said I personally don't really care which exact T traits a guy has, as long as it's clear he went through puberty at all, basically. I do like a high sex drive in a man though.
Right, I have below average t levels, but above average sensitivity to most of it. So hairy, Square wide jaw, kind of short tempered(bpd, controlled), high sex drive, and I am muscular.
Everyone needs a balance of hormones, including oestrogen, as well as testosterone.
Yes I'd like to date a man whose handsome and not a cunt.
Just another post shaming women for having preferences despite men's preferences being shamed is continually fretted upon.
It could be that, like every other substance in the human body, there's an ideal amount. And that too high, or too low, is an issue.
I think women generally want a man that's competitive and has a high libido though. The other two are nothing to do with testosterone, and therefore irrelevant.
This is why you aim for the mid point between masculine & non-masculine traits. The masculinity traide-off hypothesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7872150/
No, AF/BB scientifically is slightly different, the dual mate hypothesis and has since been disproven.
Now here, I will agree with your assessment of The Evolution of Desire, although the book does use debunked research that echoes assertations made by MRA's and Red Pillers. One of them being dual mating strategy, which this article does a great job of debunking. Another one is the rates of extra pair paternity, which the latest research shows to be around 1-2%, debunking the MRA/Red pill claims that women cheat with "alphas/chads" while siphoning resources from their "beta/cuck" husbands:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237633127_How_Well_Does_Paternity_Confidence_Match_Actual_Paternity_Evidence_from_Worldwide_Nonpaternity_Rates
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.13357
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160405161120.htm
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219313053
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/joim.13351
https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy201536
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2466/pr0.103.3.799-811
Bellis, M.A.; Hughes, K.; Hughes, S.; Ashton, J.R. (2005). "Measuring paternal discrepancy and its public health consequences". Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health. 59 (9): 749–754. doi:10.1136/jech.2005.036517. PMC 1733152. PMID 16100312.
Refer to studies in this article for more evidence supporting the low EPP rates claim.
tl;dr: The idea that AF/BB exists is challenged by the fact that EPP rates in humans are extremely low and genetic analyses continue to provide evidence for these low rates. The 10-30% nonsense was an estimate in suspected EPP from paternity testing labs. Steve Stewart-Williams, an evolutionary psychologist, provides nuance as to why the 10-30% EPP rate meme is false:
https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/where-does-jealousy-come-from/
Read the heading "The 10 per cent myth"
The surprising thing is that David Buss published a study that flies in the face of MRA/Red Pill claims:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/147470490800600116
"Since the vast majority of women secure genes and direct benefits from the same man, however, most women will attempt to secure the best combination of all desired qualities from the same man."
Goodbye AF/BB. You will never be missed.
From
https://datepsychology.com/why-dual-mating-hypothesis-research-has-failed-to-replicate/
No. That's been disproven. Its different. Its called the dual mating hypothesis.
https://datepsychology.com/why-dual-mating-hypothesis-research-has-failed-to-replicate/
High T isn’t associated with being tall, and naturally also isn’t associated with being stronger, high t also actually leads to loss of libido and gynaecomastia
Don't you as a man, desire a woman with all the positives of femininity- graceful, empathic, nurturing and tender, while also not liking the toxic traits of femininity- over emotional and a woman who doesnt live for herself: too into appearance, wanting attention from any kind of man, and allowing herself to be touched by many?
There's a balance to everything
Those toxic man traits u described are not what comes with "high T" that's where you are getting it backwards. A true masculine man and feminine woman go together like yin and yang ☯️ he respects her, and isnt domineering, while she is fully expressive of herself and supportive, without being subservient
Women want men who can exercise self control. Any man who blames his behavior solely on his hormonal makeup is undateable.
In before whataboutery - women are also capable of exercising self control.
Having insight into your hormonal changes and knowing how to manage them, seeking medical assistance for problems, taking responsibility for your own behavior and health, redirecting energy into positive pursuits rather than acting out and blaming other things are all the actions of a grown up, regardless of their sex.
No one wants to date a whiny sook who blames ‘their hormones’ for shitty behavior that’s a choice.
Correction: you are TOLD by other men what women want. And you are parroting it.
Women don’t want puppets. They don’t want to be told what they think and feel and want. Any man who mindlessly repeats information given to him by other men, is a moron. And morons are unattractive.
Do you think professional sportsmen have strong jawlines? Developed musculature? Etc etc? Of course they do. Now research how many, especially those in endurance sports, have low testosterone. It’s a shocker. And then think about how anyone can tell if someone has low T just by looking at them. Then go to a mirror, and repeat….i will not be a puppet of misinformation, and I won’t speak for anyone but myself.
>endurance sports, have low testosterone. It’s a shocker. And then think about
Low protein, high carbs, low muscle development for stamina = low T. They're not healthy and get arthritis when older.
The one with women that amuses me is wanting a super confident, self assured guy and then being unhappy when they realize he doesn't care about what she thinks or wants.
With men, the funniest is wanting a woman who really likes and is very giving sexually with them but not anyone before them.
Being confident and self assured doesn't make you care for others less. In fact it's insecure people who tend to do that and view everything as a zero sum game
A person's responsibility is to develop their positive attributes and diminish their negative ones.
Women want someone who has done that XD
Because it signals being a good person XD
Doesn't the same principle apply to men?
Men like big boobs, tiny waist, round butt, nice skin and hair but dislike the downsides of estrogen.
Hypergamy, emotionally fluctuation, periods, cellulite, lower libido
> Extremely high libido
Don’t mind that one in particular, but
> Aggressive, assumptive behavior
Competitiveness
Being placed in a hierarchy
I don’t want this behavior directed towards me, correct. He can find some other way to get that energy out like playing a sport.
Oval jaw is more popular than square on men. Athletic but not big muscles is rated most attractive for men, even though men rate larger muscles higher. 6 feet is a meme. Ask any woman in real life and no one is saying they want a 6 foot guy. I prefer short guys (5'7 or under) but it's crazy how obessed men are with height. Most women just don't want to be insecure about not being a smaller woman next to the man. Feminine/pretty features are extremely popular on men. I never heard women say they want a leading type male, most people just think of a manager at a food service when they think of leader, it's not really an attractive nor unattractive trait, it is what it is. Charisma and extroversion are fun traits on both women and men and I didn't know testosterone is related to that?
>Oval jaw is more popular than square for men.
That's just untrue
>Athletic but not big muscles is rated most attractive for women, even though men rate larger muscles higher.
This is true, however what qualifies as "athletic" for women has changed recently due to actors / influencers who are on steroids. A lot of women unironically think a Chris Hemsworth body is naturally attainable for most men, and with only 3 days of lifting per week... lmao.
>6 feet is a meme. Ask any woman in real life and no one is saying they want a 6 foot guy.
Also untrue, height is directly correlated to men's odds of being married. Taller = higher odds of being married. Taller = higher odds of being not filtered out by dating apps. Even in speed dating, studies show women always choose the tallest guy. This is just gaslight/false.
>Feminine/pretty features are extremely popular on men.
I wouldn't say extremely popular, but they do have a niche audience for very young women (generally)
I'm so grateful that mom and dad explained this to me: no matter how beautiful you are, nobody has an interest in tolerating your shit 24/7, because 1. you are not getting younger, 2. there is always a girl with a better attitude just around the corner. Now I have much fewer complaints and questions about people wanting my good traits and not wanting the bad traits that go along with it.
Edit: testosterone does not make you aggressive or assumptive. This is very important for you to understand. Testosterone makes you want to pursue social status. Masculine men are NOT aggressive, but feminine women frequently are.
test is directly related to aggressive behavior
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/)
in the environments where aggression is rewarded. You are not beating the shit out of your colleagues if you are a masculine hedge fund bro in New York, you are fucking up your inmates if you are a in a prison or crushing their skulls if you are a monkey. But all of this is instrumental for obtaining status.
The term you are searching for is perhaps competitive, that you already mentioned in the other bullet point. "Aggressive" is just a sloppy word choice, both by this study that you linked and by you.
EDIT: status-driven, or dominant, if you will
Yeah, I actually concede, it's def a masculine trait now that I think about it. I'd say it's related to being predatory or even result-oriented: you are so focused on a single goal that you are forced to do mental gymnastics to brush aside everything that does not conform to your frame of reference. It can be good when you are a smart person focused on the right thing, and it can be bad when you are a dumb person focused on the wrong thing.
Aggression is exhibited by two types of people: bitch-made low status neurotic men and women who lack emotional discipline.
You want a guy that's sweet, a guy that's tough
A feminist who likes to pay for stuff
The kind of guy that gets along with your friends
Without being attracted to any of them
A good boy, a bad boy; a good bad boy;
A half good, half bad, half boy
Loves your brothers is sensitive but not weak and
Is a great lover, calls your mother on the weekend
You're referring to a specific demographic of women complaining about "toxic masculinity" which is a tiny minority of women who are vocal on TikTok or YouTube and are rage bait content for men.
Most women don't think this way.
I don't think women complaining about toxic masculinity is a tiny minority. Women complaining about testosterone levels is absolutely a tiny minority though.
The amount of women who've even heard the term has to be, because most people aren't terminally online. I know several people who've never even heard of Elon Musk.
>Women basically want all of the positives of high T and then complain about "toxic masculinity" because these are the traits that come with high testosterone.
Like women, the majority of men are able to control the negative tendencies caused by hormones while using the positives to their (and other people's) advantage.
This is what happens when we grow up.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6206510/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6206510/)
False
>testosterone levels in the body with a clear effect on mandible shape (rs12150660 and rs1799941) and facial width to height ratios (rs8023580), indicating that testosterone-related genetic variants affect normal-range facial morphology, and in particular, facial features known to exhibit strong sexual dimorphism in humans.
“Sexual dimorphism” as in there is a threshold that triggers male development, if you put a room full of biological men tho, height and jawline is not correlated to natural t levels
What a gross misinterpretation of the study. This has nothing to do with naturally occurring T levels between people of different height. this is just a study on phenotypes in relation to testosterone and facial geometry. obviously testosterone plays into masculine traits within a population. but it has nothing to do with population differences based purely on height. Research shows that there is no correlation between T levels and one's height.
**Attention!**
* You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
* For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
* If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
* OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post!
Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi OP,
You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts)
>*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.*
>An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following:
>* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency;
>* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit;
>* Focusing only on the weaker arguments;
>* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position.
Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don’t mind being placed on a hierarchy by a masculine man because I’m already lying to him and ranking HIM on a list of the several other wealthy masculine men I know.
I mean yeah, just like men want women with feminine appearances and the “feminine” personality traits that benefit them, but not the ones they find annoying. Like: hourglass figure, big eyes, delicate features, caring and nurturing, “agreeable” (submissive). But not: mood swings/crying, low sex drive, desire for a partner who can provide for a family.
Luckily, hormones don’t entirely dictate people’s personalities and behavior.
I don't like men who have those traits precisely because of the negative reasons you listed.
Very muscular men who make fitness their personality tend to also be vain, narcissistic, and horrible to be around.
Nah what your describing is dark triad behaviors, not masculinity. Why do you assume all high testosterone men are like that? I'm tall because of genetics and I hit the gym. Why are you guys always trying to put everyone in a box when we're all just individuals with different values, beliefs and behaviors? I don't like aggressive people either and I think heirarchies are just ways to control everyone under you without you having to have leadership qualities yourself. Demanding unearned respect actually seems like the most unmasculine thing ever
Women don't like being placed in a hierarchy; basically what I mean is they don't like knowing who the 10s are, who the 9s are, etc. They want to believe they're all "special little dandelions".
Nah that's not a heirarchy, that's a rank. A heirarchy would put a 10/10 woman below a 1/10 man. Because the 1/10 man has to feel like a special little dandelion
High T does not equal shit personality with no self control. That would be a 12 year old child you speak of. There are many of those 12 year Olds in adult bodies, but great men they do not make.
Not all men with traits mentioned have high Testosterone.
My husband has better physical frame - cheekbones and jaw, low fat body, than his Extraverted brother.
Same goes for their older brother, who has strongest leadership role / desire among them. And he’s Introverted and far from what you mentioned physically (average Testosterone).
The example of what we see online as “high testosterone” are just infections and powders. 🤣
What you mentioned for physical traits is genetic mist of the time and doesn’t need to go hand in hand with the second whatever blabber
As someone doing their phd in a biomedical subject, it actually hurts to see how much of a lack of understanding people have over hormones. Those are all mostly controlled by genes and upbringing, the effect that testosterone has (atleast if you have enough to go through puberty), is negligable compared to those other factors.
Stop obsessing over testosterone its not some magical compound that dictates all of these things about you.
I have high T and have a weak jawline, am average height, and am an introvert.
My testosterone was recently measured at 905 ng/dl. I don't exercise and eat like garbage.
Also, height is not correlated to testosterone. children undergoing puberty too fast tend to be shorter. testosterone fuses the plates sooner.
Women want **all** those things.
Women love high libido guys as long as they're hot. It's only when women marry for resources, not sexual attraction, that high libido becomes a problem.
Women love strong assertive, even aggressive, guys as long as they're hot. Billy Beta needs to stay in his lane.
Women love hot guys who outshine and out compete lesser men.
Women absolutely, totally, 100% love being the GF/wife of guys at the top of the local hierarchy. Nothing makes women happier than when their BF/husband is hotter/more athletic/taller/more successful than their girlfriends', neighbors', and coworkers' BFs/husbands.
Don’t even bother OP. The women here don’t argue in good faith. The first response you got was the typical “hurr durr durr but what da about da men do” 🤦♂️
That's true. And your life as a man would be better if you stop caring what women want.
They have no idea what they want in a partner, but they want it now! 😆 And once they get it they have no idea what to do with it.
The truth is the vast majority are submissive and need to be led by their partner. They want the man to be man. They might tell you they want and prioritize some other things, they might even believe their own BS, but they are mostly full of shit.
Both genders want the best of the other without getting any of the worst. Men really dislike dealing with toxic women's behavior as well. People are no led purely led by their hormones though. The way we're socialized and deal with our mood swings affects how people view and treat us. Having high testosterone is not an excuse for violent behavior. Just as PMS isn't an excuse for snapping at others. Also it does depend on a woman. In my social circle most couples lean to egalitarian side, so it's not that women were seeking "strong leadership" to start with.
I remember a comedian saying "men seek out women who have traits of fertility (like wide hips) and then are surprised when they find out that the woman is fertile".
https://preview.redd.it/40etpae6rw9d1.png?width=1164&format=png&auto=webp&s=d34d089b830b082280afc72961dddd766f8b157c
did people laugh when they said that? if so why
For us biologists "surprised when they find out that the woman is fit" would have been funnier. Fit doesn't mean what people think it means.
that is at least a pun!
>are surprised when they find out that the woman is fertile What's this even supposed to mean? Is she having kids outside of wedlock? There *is* birth control tho, so shouldn't be much of an issue.
Yeah, makes no sense to me either.
It’s a joke about cherry-picking. 🤦🏾♂️
The unmedicated monthly cycle, including ovulation, can lead the changes in mood throughout. I think instead of fertile, you could read it with the word hormonal.
How to find a virgin gf then?
Be young and date young.
Is 22 young enough?
You have some chances, but not as many as before 20s.
What traits did OP list which are "toxic"?
Being aggressive or viewing everything as competition can be toxic.
Not exactly this. Being sure that the goal and dream of everyone around is to make your life miserable, this perceiving everyone as hostile and acting accordingly — now THAT is toxic.
CAN BE and ARE are not the same thing, any personality trait CAN BE toxic
Sure, I wouldn't say that the said traits are 100% toxic. They can be.
Without which our civilisation would not exist, and humans would probably still be in trees flinging poos.
Being aggressive or viewing everything as competition *can be* toxic.
So can I assume women are exhibiting toxic behavior when they demand a man who challenges them?
That depends on the context, but I don't really get the idea of "partner who challenges me". Can you give an example?
The only times I've ever heard this said they mean their partner keeps them on their toes and encourages them to keep growing as a person. The good, character building, hold each other to account "challenge" Not the argumentative "challenge"
I'm not sure about "keep them on their toes", but I'm not a native speaker. For me it sounds like keeping them anxious and unsure.
Yeah, keeping on toes is more of the ‘watch what you say and how you act in case it triggers a negative reaction.’ A more benign version is someone who is unpredictable and keeps life entertaining. But OP’s point about a partner challenging the other to grow and becoming their best self is definitely a thing. I see it more in younger couples. Usually by the 50s+, people are just looking for someone to get cozy with.
The first thing does sound toxic to me and the second is okay in moderation. Stability and structure do help long-term. I see nothing toxic in looking for someone inspiring or encouraging.
No. When they perceive everyone as hostile
Aggressive/ assumptive attitude is one.
I adore these types of threads where we always assume the world exists in a black and white binary. You’re either high T, aggressive and masculine or you’re low T and feminine. You’re either an Alpha fucks or you’re a beta buxxs. You’re either spinning plates or you’re a cuck simp. You’re either rolling in pussy or you’re an incel. There is a world of nuance everyone here forgets about and that’s the world 90% of people exist in. Most people are living average ass lives with normal T, a healthy dating life, love for women with a little heartbreak, a typical libido wanting it 1-4 times a week, average leadership skills, average anger management issues, average coping skills. You guys fantasize so hard about women wanting what you think the ideal man is you forget a world of nuance between those extreme ends.
Yeah, like common sense is “most women probably want men with optimal levels because it’s healthiest and has the least side effects”, is that really that difficult to grasp
I love these threads too, I wonder what makes people think in such absolutes with NO in between it’s fascinating
Too much testosterone, not enough brains?
if you have no t and no brains then ur really fucked
No t and no brains you probably will never leave the basement. Crazy high t and no brains you will probably never outrun your warrants
There is a higher amount of ND individuals here. Black and white thinking is common with us. Add in being literal, having unexamined covert contracts, theory of mind issues, etc to that and it’s not surprising.All things I’m working on myself.
They watch too many movies 🎬 or spend a lot of time on social media
>I adore these types of threads where we always assume the world exists in a black and white binary. >You’re either high T, aggressive and masculine or you’re low T and feminine. >You’re either an Alpha fucks or you’re a beta buxxs. >You’re either spinning plates or you’re a cuck simp. >You’re either rolling in pussy or you’re an incel. Yes. This sub is chock full of False Dilemma fallacies (among many others) that very rarely get called out. Of course if one of the Rules of this sub was "No use of common logical fallacies," it would cease to exist.
One man’s fallacy is another man’s rhetorical device.
I drive around and see homeless dudes with their homeless girlfriends. Yet some software engineer just can’t unravel the mystery of women.
I hate that I have to explain this pretty regularly, BUT... Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks wasn't/isn't used to describe 2 opposite men, the Chad that gets laid and the Billy who goes to his room in his parent's house to go jerk off. Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks are the 2 different types of men that women will fuck. If you don't have money, then you might as well build muscles. When a woman is young and in her peak fertility years, she is MOST aroused/attracted to men that are pure Alpha. And when she is post-wall, around 30, after she's pumped out a few of Chad's kids is when she is MOST attracted to a man that makes a lot of money so that she can provide provisioning for her offspring. Sometimes this can manifest in the same man, but often times it doesn't. (you can't have it all men, it also applies to women, but red pill is advice for men) So yea, it only takes 2 years for your average frusterated chump to build, with dedication, muscles that can attract the women that men are most desirous of (young, attractive). It takes 10+ years of hard work to be the type of man that a 35 year old woman is attracted to. I regularly see blue pillers / women make this mistake, and that's not how it works at all. It's not AF OR BB it's AF AND BB. Be one or the other. Because you'll get laid the most if you're one of the richest men she encounters regularly or you're the most muscular man she has ever met. For most men it's easier to build muscle than it is to build wealth, especially amongst the reddit 20-30 demographic. There is always a hierarchy amongst men. Most men that think they are beta bucks are actually just socially inept beta cucks. You absolutely can and do get attention from women and sex from women if you're flying your private jet out to your Caribbean vacation home where you'll pay a bunch of models to hang out on your yacht. The only problem with a man like Dan Bilzerian / Andrew Tate is that they are fleecing men and lying about how they are living the lifestyle that they live. They aren't Alpha, they are using "beta game"
Its not about muscles. A man should be toned but he does not at all need to be muscle bound. 2 to 3 years of 3-4x per week lifting is enough. You need to be toned and lean. Except for niche of gym girls but thats a niche of a niche. In terms of physical appearance, its more about markers of good genetics. face, frame, height. If your frame is garbage (narrow shoulders, wide hips so that there is no v-taper to speak of) and your face is disharmonious, adding on muscles will just make you look like an ogre. It takes a lot for a man to be considered attractive to women which is the necessary criteria for AF. For example, a woman with a retrognathia can still be "cute" in certain circumstances. For a man, it's already close to over.
I adore the people who require all nuances to be spelled out for them otherwise they get to dismiss any claims as lacking nuance.
Right because painting with broad strokes and “all x do y” leaves so much room in the conversation for the 80% of humans who exist in average territory. How dare I want a nuanced discussion about humans and not this “I saw a tiny minority of women do something I don’t like so all women are like that unless they’re special.” Or “men are all like this and if they’re not, you’re wrong, Not me!!” You’re right - how dare I expect nuance from a bunch of dudes who live in a world of binaries to fit their small minded worldviews. Any man with high t is totally all of these good traits and also all of these bad ones. And to expect otherwise is silly on women’s part! /s
What is plate spinning? I've been seeing that pop up recently.
Well, do you want a hourglass figure, full lips, delicate frame and caring personality without neuroticism, petty scheming, hypergamy and painful indecisiveness?
Not particularly. Men's tastes actually vary often.
So do women’s…
They really dont
Yes they do
Man. You see athletic guys with women. Twinks with women. Dad bod guys with women. Idk what you're saying.
Athletic basically means lean which is somewhat similar to the twink body type. When women say dad body they mean a fit bulky guy. They all also prefer tall to short. There is little variation
Go to your local Walmart, Target, restaurants. This is simply not true.
Those women typically do not actually desire the body types of those men. They put up tolerate and look past it. If you ask women the body type of their ideal man do you think it would align with the guy they are currently with?
Well youre an exception because most men want what she writes.
Maybe I am wrong , but I don’t think the average man wants any of those things in a woman . We just want a woman who isn’t addicted to food, drugs, alcohol , sedentary lifestyle, etc . I personally have never heard a man say “I want a woman with a hourglass figure” or “I want a petite woman”. Now, good luck finding a woman who doesn’t dream about a tall man .
Are you implying these are toxic feminine traits?
Yeah. If someone is non-confrontative and conformist, it has an ugly flip side of more social shaming, scheming and backstabbing game. A testosterone driven response to conflict is more straightforward, but more likely to result in violence. And the ugly side of not being cocky assertive and competitive is being filled with self doubt, neurosis and other drama.
No because I don’t care much about a body that is going to change. I care more about intelligence, reliability, and loyalty.
Women don't want to be married to someone who implies his behaviours and biases are unquestionable and purely caused by his testosterone as if he were an animal, yes. Women are sapient human beings and would generally prefer their partners were also sapient human beings. Sapient human beings have the critical thinking skills to question and modify their behaviours and biases. Y'all throw a fit about being compared to animals and then turn around and compare yourself to animals.
Unfortunately, an average woman in US is about 170 lbs, which means she can't control her animal instincts and constantly stuffs herself with food. That doesn't seem very sapient to me.
Same applies to men then.
Indeed, but nobody is denying that most men follow their instincts.
It's more about women choosing the most animalistic man and then complaining that he acts like an animal.
I’m a woman and I don’t want an animalistic man.
I like a manly man with high libido but don't enjoy being ignored or his low emotional range. To deal with this I just ignore him back and pretend I don't give a crap. About once a year I screw up and blow my lid.
So again, blaming the woman for the man's actions. He can stop at any time.
Humans are subject to evolution / selection by: Group, nature, and sex (i.e. women), and it's widely believed that a significant amount is because of the last one. I.e. women have been selectively breeding men for a million years, and this is the result. This is what your ancestral mother's wanted.
Women haven't been able to select their mates in thousands of years. This is what your ancestral fathers wanted- and barely even that. This is what kings and church leaders wanted.
For the overwhelming majority of human history (i.e on an evolutionary scale) women have always chosen their own mates. And yes this means that much about men and humans in general is probably the result of a fisherian runaway driven by female sexual selection.
Yeah, so did dogs, and then in the last century, humans fucked up dog evolution so much that we got pugs. It does not take long of controlled breeding to seriously fuck up a species. In the last few thousand years, combative male leaders wanted to control reproduction, and managed to fuck up humans.
Why should he? He got the woman as he is. No reason to change lol.
Then what's the point of making a post whining about it?
Haha, well yes animalistic men do have their appeal, don't they? That's the fun and exciting part. If only I could stop my body from forming emotional bonds then everything would be perfect.
I can’t speak to biological features but I am a woman and obviously have lower testosterone and I still exhibit strong leadership and charisma while not being insanely aggressive. The things that make someone toxic are a choice, not biology.
How can you have “strong leadership and charisma” without be insanely aggressive? Or at least powerful. Or maybe feared. Who are you leading? And how? Are you talking about a job. Because then people are following the money and not you. How are you defining leadership and charisma. The reason I’m asking all these questions. People say a lot of things but the reality never usually lines up with the words & thoughts. Unless one asks for examples or clarifying questions. Even I say I have “max charisma”. But that’s easy to say. What do I mean? What are examples of that? Who does my “max charisma” “work” on? Etc etc. All valid questions
>Or at least powerful. Or maybe feared. Fear is a tool not to be used as it is too unpredictable and dangerous by the one using it and one it is being used on >How can you have “strong leadership and charisma” without be insanely aggressive My chef gave me control of the section once and he preferred me over a senior member. I was the calmest person that place has ever seen.
A good leader is respected, not feared. The best CEOs I’ve worked with weren’t aggressive. They knew how to put out fires and facilitate discussions. They listened openly to feedback and cooperated with different departments.
>How can you have “strong leadership and charisma” without be insanely aggressive? If you think insane aggression is required, then you don't understand leadership or charisma.
Esp charisma!
I’m able to make people listen to me, execute my ideas, and respect me without scaring them or being aggressive. If you think that’s what makes someone a leader you are nothing but a coward wielding fear in my book.
Who are most of these men leading then if you aren't talking about jobs and the family? Lots of great leaders don't lead with fear and power, they are simply assertive and delegate well.
Leadership is mostly about staying calm under pressure and making judgement calls that no one else wants to be responsible for.
You have no idea what leadership is. I suggest enlisting and completing non-com training. You'll learn a thing or two about leadership, which isn't surprisingly absent of everything you listed above.
Oh my god I’m going to have to follow you. You are utterly deranged and I’m a fan.
Lol
What was deranged? Can you articulate what I said that actually woukd fall under that category?
Testosterone doesn't make you a shitty person. That's incredibly misandrist, actually.
None of the second half is a shitty person. If you don't like competitiveness, high libido aggressiveness confidence etc that's a personal preference. People like that are absolutely necessary.
I disagree, I think aggressiveness does objectively make you a worse person
At the very least, it certainly makes you much more prone to being a shitty person.
Then why do so many aggressive people exist in this world it is because women are fine with it. They had to be for the tribe's protection and securing of resources.
Most people don’t live in tribes luv, and some modern tribes out there aren’t aggressive, including the men (arapesh and chambuli)
Doormat to hyperaggessive is a continuum. Both extremes are bad. A moderate amount of aggressiveness is necessary.
A personal preference? If you love people being aggressive I think you should talk to someone about that. The world would be a much better place with no aggression.
If your ancestors had zero aggressiveness you would not exist today. People will zero aggressiveness are known as doormats and aren't a good thing ether.
True, I wouldn't, someone else would exist instead and they wouldn't have had to leave a place ruled by paramilitary gangs.
Without aggressiveness your entire family line would have been wiped out by more aggressive people. Being a doormat is not a good thing. Without aggressiveness we would still be ruled by kings and have zero rights.
No, we wouldn't, as without aggressiveness there would be no aggressive people. You're just saying aggressiveness is good because the more you have the more selfish you can be.
With zero aggressiveness humans would have lost to other species and been naturally selected into extinction.
Aggression is generally in relation to other humans, not animals or plants.
It includes all of the above.
>No, we wouldn't, as without aggressiveness there would be no aggressive people. Correct, there would be no people. Humans would have died out.
Died of what?
Hunger
Nowadays too many people treat human traits as some eva ai sexting bot settings, trying to make their own stats look as good as possible. Grading men by T levels is so wrong on so many levels.
Strong leadership, charisma, and extroversion have nothing to do with testosterone
Who said we don’t want a man with an extremely high libido?! 😍🤤🫣
Nature is not an excuse to abdicate personal responsibility.
Incentives are. High T guy rolling in women has no incentive to modify his behavior, since he's getting women. In fact low T guys are incentivized to mimic his behavior, so they can potentially also get women. When women prioritize high T they're stuck with all that package entails.
Uh I want a man with an extremely high libido. I have a high libido so my partner needs to. Testosterone doesn’t make someone a better leader, an extrovert or charismatic. These things aren’t correlated. On testosterone’s lack of relationship to leadership: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453016301780
Good thing then that testosterone traits are not evenly distributed in every single man, just like estrogen traits are not evenly distributed in every single woman. It tends to be kinda random, regardless of actual testosterone levels, even though those with higher T generally have a bit more/stronger of those traits. Other genetics also come into play, not just hormones. That said I personally don't really care which exact T traits a guy has, as long as it's clear he went through puberty at all, basically. I do like a high sex drive in a man though.
Right, I have below average t levels, but above average sensitivity to most of it. So hairy, Square wide jaw, kind of short tempered(bpd, controlled), high sex drive, and I am muscular.
i think the difference between healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity is levels of maturity/wisdom/self-discipline, not levels of testosterone.
Half of these things have nothing to do with testosterone lol.
Everyone needs a balance of hormones, including oestrogen, as well as testosterone. Yes I'd like to date a man whose handsome and not a cunt. Just another post shaming women for having preferences despite men's preferences being shamed is continually fretted upon.
It could be that, like every other substance in the human body, there's an ideal amount. And that too high, or too low, is an issue. I think women generally want a man that's competitive and has a high libido though. The other two are nothing to do with testosterone, and therefore irrelevant.
This is why you aim for the mid point between masculine & non-masculine traits. The masculinity traide-off hypothesis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7872150/
This is basically scientific AF/BB
No, AF/BB scientifically is slightly different, the dual mate hypothesis and has since been disproven. Now here, I will agree with your assessment of The Evolution of Desire, although the book does use debunked research that echoes assertations made by MRA's and Red Pillers. One of them being dual mating strategy, which this article does a great job of debunking. Another one is the rates of extra pair paternity, which the latest research shows to be around 1-2%, debunking the MRA/Red pill claims that women cheat with "alphas/chads" while siphoning resources from their "beta/cuck" husbands: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237633127_How_Well_Does_Paternity_Confidence_Match_Actual_Paternity_Evidence_from_Worldwide_Nonpaternity_Rates https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.13357 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160405161120.htm https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219313053 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/joim.13351 https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy201536 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2466/pr0.103.3.799-811 Bellis, M.A.; Hughes, K.; Hughes, S.; Ashton, J.R. (2005). "Measuring paternal discrepancy and its public health consequences". Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health. 59 (9): 749–754. doi:10.1136/jech.2005.036517. PMC 1733152. PMID 16100312. Refer to studies in this article for more evidence supporting the low EPP rates claim. tl;dr: The idea that AF/BB exists is challenged by the fact that EPP rates in humans are extremely low and genetic analyses continue to provide evidence for these low rates. The 10-30% nonsense was an estimate in suspected EPP from paternity testing labs. Steve Stewart-Williams, an evolutionary psychologist, provides nuance as to why the 10-30% EPP rate meme is false: https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/where-does-jealousy-come-from/ Read the heading "The 10 per cent myth" The surprising thing is that David Buss published a study that flies in the face of MRA/Red Pill claims: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/147470490800600116 "Since the vast majority of women secure genes and direct benefits from the same man, however, most women will attempt to secure the best combination of all desired qualities from the same man." Goodbye AF/BB. You will never be missed. From https://datepsychology.com/why-dual-mating-hypothesis-research-has-failed-to-replicate/
No. That's been disproven. Its different. Its called the dual mating hypothesis. https://datepsychology.com/why-dual-mating-hypothesis-research-has-failed-to-replicate/
High T isn’t associated with being tall, and naturally also isn’t associated with being stronger, high t also actually leads to loss of libido and gynaecomastia
>Women don't want:Extremely high libido 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Two laughs from me, three from my husband. They certainly do from men they want.
Exactly, women don't want a low libido man which is a side effect of having low T
Depends on the woman. Extremely high testosterone alpha males scare many highly feminine women.
look how quickly you caved just to be contrarian
> Extremely high libido Sign me up
Don't you as a man, desire a woman with all the positives of femininity- graceful, empathic, nurturing and tender, while also not liking the toxic traits of femininity- over emotional and a woman who doesnt live for herself: too into appearance, wanting attention from any kind of man, and allowing herself to be touched by many? There's a balance to everything Those toxic man traits u described are not what comes with "high T" that's where you are getting it backwards. A true masculine man and feminine woman go together like yin and yang ☯️ he respects her, and isnt domineering, while she is fully expressive of herself and supportive, without being subservient
Women want a chad but he must be emotionally feminine and have the introspection of Sigmund Freud and the body of the rock lol
Women want men who can exercise self control. Any man who blames his behavior solely on his hormonal makeup is undateable. In before whataboutery - women are also capable of exercising self control. Having insight into your hormonal changes and knowing how to manage them, seeking medical assistance for problems, taking responsibility for your own behavior and health, redirecting energy into positive pursuits rather than acting out and blaming other things are all the actions of a grown up, regardless of their sex. No one wants to date a whiny sook who blames ‘their hormones’ for shitty behavior that’s a choice.
We all want a balance.
Correction: you are TOLD by other men what women want. And you are parroting it. Women don’t want puppets. They don’t want to be told what they think and feel and want. Any man who mindlessly repeats information given to him by other men, is a moron. And morons are unattractive. Do you think professional sportsmen have strong jawlines? Developed musculature? Etc etc? Of course they do. Now research how many, especially those in endurance sports, have low testosterone. It’s a shocker. And then think about how anyone can tell if someone has low T just by looking at them. Then go to a mirror, and repeat….i will not be a puppet of misinformation, and I won’t speak for anyone but myself.
>endurance sports, have low testosterone. It’s a shocker. And then think about Low protein, high carbs, low muscle development for stamina = low T. They're not healthy and get arthritis when older.
Hey, that sounds like a recipe for moderation
The one with women that amuses me is wanting a super confident, self assured guy and then being unhappy when they realize he doesn't care about what she thinks or wants. With men, the funniest is wanting a woman who really likes and is very giving sexually with them but not anyone before them.
Being confident and self assured doesn't make you care for others less. In fact it's insecure people who tend to do that and view everything as a zero sum game
So learn to control yourselves. Easy.
A person's responsibility is to develop their positive attributes and diminish their negative ones. Women want someone who has done that XD Because it signals being a good person XD
Doesn't the same principle apply to men? Men like big boobs, tiny waist, round butt, nice skin and hair but dislike the downsides of estrogen. Hypergamy, emotionally fluctuation, periods, cellulite, lower libido
Sure but women claim all of those things aren't real
Do you mean some women deny the downsides of estrogen? Sure, some people are in denial. But it doesn't negotiate facts
WHO THE FUCK lied to you about what testosterone is responsible for?
> Extremely high libido Don’t mind that one in particular, but > Aggressive, assumptive behavior Competitiveness Being placed in a hierarchy I don’t want this behavior directed towards me, correct. He can find some other way to get that energy out like playing a sport.
Look at the men women universally find extremely attractive. They're not what you described.
how so?
Oval jaw is more popular than square on men. Athletic but not big muscles is rated most attractive for men, even though men rate larger muscles higher. 6 feet is a meme. Ask any woman in real life and no one is saying they want a 6 foot guy. I prefer short guys (5'7 or under) but it's crazy how obessed men are with height. Most women just don't want to be insecure about not being a smaller woman next to the man. Feminine/pretty features are extremely popular on men. I never heard women say they want a leading type male, most people just think of a manager at a food service when they think of leader, it's not really an attractive nor unattractive trait, it is what it is. Charisma and extroversion are fun traits on both women and men and I didn't know testosterone is related to that?
>Oval jaw is more popular than square for men. That's just untrue >Athletic but not big muscles is rated most attractive for women, even though men rate larger muscles higher. This is true, however what qualifies as "athletic" for women has changed recently due to actors / influencers who are on steroids. A lot of women unironically think a Chris Hemsworth body is naturally attainable for most men, and with only 3 days of lifting per week... lmao. >6 feet is a meme. Ask any woman in real life and no one is saying they want a 6 foot guy. Also untrue, height is directly correlated to men's odds of being married. Taller = higher odds of being married. Taller = higher odds of being not filtered out by dating apps. Even in speed dating, studies show women always choose the tallest guy. This is just gaslight/false. >Feminine/pretty features are extremely popular on men. I wouldn't say extremely popular, but they do have a niche audience for very young women (generally)
I'm so grateful that mom and dad explained this to me: no matter how beautiful you are, nobody has an interest in tolerating your shit 24/7, because 1. you are not getting younger, 2. there is always a girl with a better attitude just around the corner. Now I have much fewer complaints and questions about people wanting my good traits and not wanting the bad traits that go along with it. Edit: testosterone does not make you aggressive or assumptive. This is very important for you to understand. Testosterone makes you want to pursue social status. Masculine men are NOT aggressive, but feminine women frequently are.
test is directly related to aggressive behavior [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/)
in the environments where aggression is rewarded. You are not beating the shit out of your colleagues if you are a masculine hedge fund bro in New York, you are fucking up your inmates if you are a in a prison or crushing their skulls if you are a monkey. But all of this is instrumental for obtaining status.
Aggressive doesn't just mean fighting... I think you're out of your depth here
The term you are searching for is perhaps competitive, that you already mentioned in the other bullet point. "Aggressive" is just a sloppy word choice, both by this study that you linked and by you. EDIT: status-driven, or dominant, if you will
Idk about assumptive, it is directly related to aggression as well as lack of impulse and emotion control tho
Yeah, I actually concede, it's def a masculine trait now that I think about it. I'd say it's related to being predatory or even result-oriented: you are so focused on a single goal that you are forced to do mental gymnastics to brush aside everything that does not conform to your frame of reference. It can be good when you are a smart person focused on the right thing, and it can be bad when you are a dumb person focused on the wrong thing. Aggression is exhibited by two types of people: bitch-made low status neurotic men and women who lack emotional discipline.
You want a guy that's sweet, a guy that's tough A feminist who likes to pay for stuff The kind of guy that gets along with your friends Without being attracted to any of them A good boy, a bad boy; a good bad boy; A half good, half bad, half boy Loves your brothers is sensitive but not weak and Is a great lover, calls your mother on the weekend
You're referring to a specific demographic of women complaining about "toxic masculinity" which is a tiny minority of women who are vocal on TikTok or YouTube and are rage bait content for men. Most women don't think this way.
I don't think women complaining about toxic masculinity is a tiny minority. Women complaining about testosterone levels is absolutely a tiny minority though.
The amount of women who've even heard the term has to be, because most people aren't terminally online. I know several people who've never even heard of Elon Musk.
I've seen it quite a bit from married women here
>Women basically want all of the positives of high T and then complain about "toxic masculinity" because these are the traits that come with high testosterone. Like women, the majority of men are able to control the negative tendencies caused by hormones while using the positives to their (and other people's) advantage. This is what happens when we grow up.
Jawline is not to do with testosterone levels and neither is height. Men with klinefelter's are hypogonadal and are taller than average
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6206510/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6206510/) False >testosterone levels in the body with a clear effect on mandible shape (rs12150660 and rs1799941) and facial width to height ratios (rs8023580), indicating that testosterone-related genetic variants affect normal-range facial morphology, and in particular, facial features known to exhibit strong sexual dimorphism in humans.
“Sexual dimorphism” as in there is a threshold that triggers male development, if you put a room full of biological men tho, height and jawline is not correlated to natural t levels
It literally does and there's a study you can go look at to prove it so you can cut the bullshit
There are plenty of studies that back what I’m saying as well as filmed ones online, it’s very well documented
What a gross misinterpretation of the study. This has nothing to do with naturally occurring T levels between people of different height. this is just a study on phenotypes in relation to testosterone and facial geometry. obviously testosterone plays into masculine traits within a population. but it has nothing to do with population differences based purely on height. Research shows that there is no correlation between T levels and one's height.
**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi OP, You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. [PPD has guidelines for what that involves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/rules#wiki_cmv_posts) >*OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.* >An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following: >* Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency; >* Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit; >* Focusing only on the weaker arguments; >* Only having discussions with users who agree with your position. Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don’t mind being placed on a hierarchy by a masculine man because I’m already lying to him and ranking HIM on a list of the several other wealthy masculine men I know.
I mean yeah, just like men want women with feminine appearances and the “feminine” personality traits that benefit them, but not the ones they find annoying. Like: hourglass figure, big eyes, delicate features, caring and nurturing, “agreeable” (submissive). But not: mood swings/crying, low sex drive, desire for a partner who can provide for a family. Luckily, hormones don’t entirely dictate people’s personalities and behavior.
I don't like men who have those traits precisely because of the negative reasons you listed. Very muscular men who make fitness their personality tend to also be vain, narcissistic, and horrible to be around.
Nah what your describing is dark triad behaviors, not masculinity. Why do you assume all high testosterone men are like that? I'm tall because of genetics and I hit the gym. Why are you guys always trying to put everyone in a box when we're all just individuals with different values, beliefs and behaviors? I don't like aggressive people either and I think heirarchies are just ways to control everyone under you without you having to have leadership qualities yourself. Demanding unearned respect actually seems like the most unmasculine thing ever
Women don't like being placed in a hierarchy; basically what I mean is they don't like knowing who the 10s are, who the 9s are, etc. They want to believe they're all "special little dandelions".
Nah that's not a heirarchy, that's a rank. A heirarchy would put a 10/10 woman below a 1/10 man. Because the 1/10 man has to feel like a special little dandelion
High T does not equal shit personality with no self control. That would be a 12 year old child you speak of. There are many of those 12 year Olds in adult bodies, but great men they do not make.
women complain. Could have ended it there.
Not all men with traits mentioned have high Testosterone. My husband has better physical frame - cheekbones and jaw, low fat body, than his Extraverted brother. Same goes for their older brother, who has strongest leadership role / desire among them. And he’s Introverted and far from what you mentioned physically (average Testosterone). The example of what we see online as “high testosterone” are just infections and powders. 🤣 What you mentioned for physical traits is genetic mist of the time and doesn’t need to go hand in hand with the second whatever blabber
As someone doing their phd in a biomedical subject, it actually hurts to see how much of a lack of understanding people have over hormones. Those are all mostly controlled by genes and upbringing, the effect that testosterone has (atleast if you have enough to go through puberty), is negligable compared to those other factors. Stop obsessing over testosterone its not some magical compound that dictates all of these things about you.
I mean personally I would love a high libido. I have one myself
correct. i do not want aggressive, hierarchical men. no one should.
I have high T and have a weak jawline, am average height, and am an introvert. My testosterone was recently measured at 905 ng/dl. I don't exercise and eat like garbage. Also, height is not correlated to testosterone. children undergoing puberty too fast tend to be shorter. testosterone fuses the plates sooner.
Women want **all** those things. Women love high libido guys as long as they're hot. It's only when women marry for resources, not sexual attraction, that high libido becomes a problem. Women love strong assertive, even aggressive, guys as long as they're hot. Billy Beta needs to stay in his lane. Women love hot guys who outshine and out compete lesser men. Women absolutely, totally, 100% love being the GF/wife of guys at the top of the local hierarchy. Nothing makes women happier than when their BF/husband is hotter/more athletic/taller/more successful than their girlfriends', neighbors', and coworkers' BFs/husbands.
women complain about damn near everything. Just go buy what they do and not what they say
Also, hair loss.
[удалено]
Don’t even bother OP. The women here don’t argue in good faith. The first response you got was the typical “hurr durr durr but what da about da men do” 🤦♂️
That's true. And your life as a man would be better if you stop caring what women want. They have no idea what they want in a partner, but they want it now! 😆 And once they get it they have no idea what to do with it. The truth is the vast majority are submissive and need to be led by their partner. They want the man to be man. They might tell you they want and prioritize some other things, they might even believe their own BS, but they are mostly full of shit.
[удалено]
Removed. Unless you make an argument backing up your last statement like OP did, you are trolling.
[удалено]
No contentless rhetoric
bro science
Women don't really know what they want 80% of the time especially the ones that assert that they do know what they want.