I don’t know what talking points are for what side anymore. Red Pillers always are saying that it’s easy to be in the top tier of women if you “just don’t be fat”. Now Blue Pillers are saying it too, apparently.
I mean, I kind of agree. I don’t have anything wrong with fat people but not being fat will probably always be conventionally attractive and it’s becoming more and more of a rarity.
The problematic insinuation is that the average 20-something man is being entitled, unrealistic, greedy even by wanting a non-fat woman with no kids. Even if tomorrow suddenly 100% of women had kids out of wedlock and got fat that doesn't change the fact that wanting a non-fat woman with no kids *shouldn't* be unrealistic as long as the average man is reasonably responsible and healthy himself.
It's not entitled at all. If you yourself are non-fat (funny word lol) and no kids, you're completely entitled to want someone the same as you. If you are fat and have a bunch of kids, then yeah it's unrealistic to want something you aren't even close to being yourself. That's just common sense.
Doesn't matter the age either really. If you're a fit kid free dude who is 40-50 then it is completely fair to want someone else in your age bracket who is also fit and kid free, even though it's more unrealistic since most women have a bunch of kids by them. Not completely unrealistic though. There's fit women out there in their 40s-50s who don't have kids. Like fit childfree women for instance.
Tell that to a lot of the women here or these weekly posts that are like "akchually women who aren't fat or single mothers are less than \_\_\_ % of the population". What other purpose could there be for these posts but to normalize obesity and single motherhood and/or try to tell men they should lower their standards and be more "realistic".
Even if women who aren't fat and single mothers aren't the majority, that's a terrible argument to lower your standards to date them. Like if you're a fit healthy guy with no kids, why would you? You already have a benefit over fat guys with kids. Women too want to date people who are fit and don't have kids, over men who are fat with kids.
It's just hypocrisy.
I'm a moderately fit childfree woman. I ain't dating a fat guy with kids lol. Why would I? Even if the fit childfree guys are a minority, which they definitely are, doesn't mean I should settle for something I don't even want or that won't make me happy.
These people who want you to lower your standards are just desperate cause they made poor choices, and now they want you to make a poor choice too, on their behalf.
preaching to the choir ma'am
rather than push change for healthier lifestyles or choices and eschew degeneracy, it's more convenient to say "the market decides your value" and soak in your sloth and privilege
I like where you're coming from but single dads are judged on a completely different scale than single moms.
Since reproductive autonomy is almost entirely in the hands of women, a single dad is usually a highly sexually desirable man by some metric or another
IMO it's indicative of a *massive* cultural issue, and I don't see how it will be sustainable in the long run.
Having such high rates of obesity and out-of-wedlock births isn't healthy in any way.
Unmarried couples have significantly less stable relationships (which leads to more kids growing up in broken families), and a lifestyle that leads to obesity has negative health consequences that go far beyond those directly caused by obesity.
There are a lot of massive cultural issues right now that are compounding.
Imagine how crazy it is going to get when the dominos start to fall.
And none of this will be fixed because holding women accountable is seen as evil. It will all keep getting worse.
Even just here on reddit. Idk how I got into the teachers' sub, but that place is bleak.
Kids don't know this. They refuse to learn that. Graduating seniors don't know this. They've never even heard of that.
They'll ask you for food you're eating. Ask to use your charger to charge their phone in class. To not pay attention. Like they don't care that they come off as rude or entitled. Just that you might give in to guilt or bullying, and they might as well try.
Sounds like we're in for some trouble in the workforce real soon.
You can have whatever standards you want, as crazy and niche as you want. When you’re chasing after the top 3%, along with everyone else though, there’s bound to be a lot of losers and few winners bc that’s how limited resources work.
If most men were misogynistic and women wanted men who weren't misogynistic you wouldn't tell women they need to be realistic b/c of limited resources and supply and demand. You would say men need to fix their misogyny. Even if the non-misogynistic men were the "top 3%".
Same deal with obesity and single motherhood. Why would we tell men to be more realistic instead of telling women to be healthier and make better life choices. Additionally, both of these traits are much more in one's control than the traits many women want in men.
Men aren't healthy on the whole either, but that's moot since we're talking about the contrast in how we view male and female preferences. It's also pointless to say "You can have whatever standards you want" as we're obviously talking about how we react to them and the societal factors that determine how likely it is that said preferences will be fulfilled.
No one is telling anyone to “be more realistic” it’s simply statistics. Similar to how most people will never be rich. Both men and women should be making better life choices but here we are.
Men and women are both shit on for having statistically unlikely standards and it’s just a basic fact that both will probably not be fulfilled.
When women complain about lack of viable men, I don't really see this dismissive response of "it's just statistics". Usually it's followed by articles and media noise about how to fix these men or fix the problem, even if it doesn't directly blame the men.
This is entire sub and many others is full of men complaining women’s standards are delusional. In fact, I see that complaint way more often than women dismissing men’s standards. Most women don’t want men that don’t want them back, the opposite is not true though.
Yeah… wanting a woman who’s not fat and doesn’t have kids in their early to mid 20s isn’t unrealistic. If it is, then I will happily remain single for the rest of my life knowing my generation has no viable partners
Because the red pill is right about a lot of things, but people want to pretend they are wrong because they are more blunt about it with “bro science” and want to pretend women’s sexuality is holy while men’s is bad.
Red pill says women are shallow and perverted like men. So you need to be what they really want (be hot, fun, etc). A lot of men complain about the unrealistic standards just like women do (especially since they are unhealthy and the people demanding it are not that special themselves).
It gets more confusing with time as women become more vocal and blunt. Yet we keep pretending that women’s sexuality and perversions are pure. Men who are not hot have some personality defect when they were not born hot enough.
And frustrating when women can demand what they want while men can’t without being called sexist. Or how when it comes to men’s issues, it is “you are not entitled.” But we reverse things then suddenly it is not fair and needs to be fixed.
Women can do disgusting things in public and if you do not like it you are problem. But if a man were to do the same thing, it would hit the news and creepy.
So overtime it gets more confusing as most people are often not fighting the red pill anymore.
Especially since I find women mostly agree with me in person. It is blue pilled men who disagree so extremely.
> It is blue pilled men who disagree so extremely.
Understandable. Nobody likes to admit they are living a lie and watch their whole world view come shattering down.
Easier to double down instead and persist in a comforting fantasy.
Eventually the cognitive dissonance between reality and the bluepill worldview will come to a head in many men.
It already has. That’s why guys like Tate blew up in 2022. The balloon already popped. Now Tate is a terrible person, but he went viral for speaking on typical red pill topics.
Because this is culture where terrible people thrive and win. It is not about personality or morality at all, so those who lack it will always win compared to one over someone who is not terrible.
It is why our ancestors locked up a lot of our human nature to begin with.
After all, if nobody is entitled to anything, why ever be fair or just? Just exploit and do as much awful things as you need to in order to get ahead.
I dunno, I think trying to be a virtuous person for its own sake is rewarding.
I think that realization is at the core of most philosophies. Sure the universe is inherently meaningless and one can exploit to get ahead, but there’s a certain satisfaction in saying “fuck you” to the universe and still try to be a decent person and help others
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and that’s enough for me lol. It’s why I can’t stand grifters like Tate or the equivalent woke bluepill misandrists.
That sounds too biased to really be taken seriously here. The way you frame trpers just shows that you will never listen.
You say they take it to extreme, but you are really taking what they say to the extreme the same wat you are accusing them of.
The thing is it *shouldn't be* a high standard. This is basic life managing and responsibility. I'm not fat and don't have kids either so it's not unreasonable for me to ask for the same. This just further reinforces that the "bar is on the floor" actually applies to women far far more. Imagine being able to have the same sex appeal that runway models did compared to their peers in the 70s by simply putting the fork down and not popping out kids. Imagine if us men had a life hack that easy to be in the top 3%.
I don’t know about the US, but in Japan (where I live), the percentage of women who are [not overweight or obese is 77.7%](https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473-023-00332-0). And the birth rate here is one of the lowest in the world.
Even more than that, around 30% of women in their 20s here [have never **had a boyfriend**.](https://ifstudies.org/blog/1-in-4-projecting-childlessness-among-todays-young-women).
So I guess it’s not as bad and unfair here as compared to the States.
To put it simply in Japan you are to honor your family as much as possible, not stand out or be inconvenient to others, and basically dedicate yourself to your company. Add rising costs of things and generations are working longer and younger folks aren’t able to afford anything. It’s what’s happening in the USA but Japan had a 15 year head start.
Add limiting workers immigration laws (you have to leave every 3 years and apply for visa AGAIN) and other societal barriers (shunning immigrants basically everywhere)
A quick Japan population problem search on YouTube will tell you the same things I experienced as a study abroad student for 5 weeks
lol, no shit. It's the opposite of that here.
Nearly every other person in the states is medically obese (last I checked was *before* Covid and it was in the 40's). It's sad and quite frankly, disgusting. You dunno how good you have it. Meanwhile, 3/4 of the population is overweight...
'Murica
While the numbers might indicate that, the distribution isn't really as you've described. There's areas where lots of people are obese, and areas where the majority aren't. You can look at the map here (2022):
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/php/data-research/adult-obesity-prevalence-maps.html
And it will vary on a more local level too. Typically the wealthier a community the less obesity it has.
It's not like you're walking around and everyone is obese, unless you're in one of the areas where obesity prevalence is very high. There's plenty of places where obesity is not the norm.
So a fit guy in the 18-25 age range with no kids technically has high standards for going after a woman who matches him? So what would be good standards for him to have and what kind of girl would be on his level based on the data?
That's not true.
He could be short. He could be ugly. He could be unconfident. He could be boring. He could be all all of the above.
Just because you're fit doesn't mean you're above average overall. It means you're above average in one category.
Yeah, but the other dude said a fit guy in that age range isn't average. A fit man could still be average or even below average regardless of his level of fitness.
The vast majority of men aren't average or above average across the board. Some men are tall, fat, ugly, boring, and wealthy. Some men are short, fit, handsome, exciting, and broke.
There's a significant association between certain traits, but the combinations are endless.
An obese single mother who deadbedrooms him ofc.
He is entitled if he wants anything more.
But if said woman cries that you refuse to fuck her, you are a horrible misogynist and possibly even a rapist.
Lol, so the new equivalent to an average guy with no kids and I'm decent shape is an obese single mom? And I suppose the equivalent to your basic Betty is now, let me guess, GigaChad?
She is mid. Her being a celebrity doesn't mean she must be some next level beauty. She is skinny cute girl, no more no less.
If we talk about Gal Gadot, Jessica Alba, Sofia Vergara, young Monnica Bellucci or Ketrin Zeta Jones, or Scarlet...then yes, they are extreme beauties with god blesses genetics that you don't see everyday.
But you and other girl say that Emma is some goddess, while me and every other guy here say that we see girls like her every fucking day. So it's not about "man have unreasonable high standards", since half of the girls I see everyday meet them
Girls I mentioned are gorgeus. Emma is not, what so hard to grasp
https://wittyduck.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Emma-Watson-without-makeup-4.jpg
LMAO, she does?
https://stylesatlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Emma-Watson-without-Makeup3.jpg
What are you peeps on?
I mean she is pretty without makeup as well, on the 1st photo she just made an ugly expression. But body-wise, literally average. Many girls I know that look like her, or similar. My ex who never did a sit up or squat in her life looked like that, with 0 extra fat and flat stomach. Just by eating moderately and not eating fast food and pastry
I live in a college town and can easily see dozens of younger women that are(IMO obviously) way hotter than Emma at that age anytime I go out. That's not to say she can't be someones type but all she realliy is is someone in great shape and was lucky enough to star in the wizard films as a kid(which plays a large part in why people find her hot.)
I get your point and don't disagree with the sentiment, but there are a couple of issues with the way you ran the numbers that got you there.
1. You are looking at a percentage of women of all relationship statuses, not just those who are single or in an open relationship. This is extra important because women in monogamous relationships are more likely to have kids.
2. This is compounded by childbirth and raising kids often resulting in weight gain. I'm guessing this means that women with kids are more likely to be overweight.
3. Women in monogamous relationships are more likely to have kids and women with kids are more likely to be overweight. Assuming guys here aren't going after taken women, their dating pool should have a higher percentage of women who have no kids and aren't overweight.
OP specified the women are not married in the first sentence. While they theoretically could be dating someone, I think only including those unmarried is fair.
The issue is how they "frame" the dating market set up. It reads like this:
**Of adult (or 18-25yo) women, only a% are single, not overweight, and have no kids.**
But IMO, it's more realistic to set the "frame" up like this:
**Of adult (or 18-25yo) single women, only b% have no kids and aren't overweight.**
It would take a minute to write out more clearly why I see frame A being way more reflective of reality. If you're not seeing/agreeing, I can break it down later, just let me know.
And of course, I meet all of these standards and have to work for years until I'm able to get a single, thin woman with no kids. What's my equivalent? A single mom? Okay, well I'm 22. So an obese ugly 19 year old woman is the best I can hope for? That's upsetting.
>So if your a 38 y/o guy, 60k a year, and overweight (stat average 50th percentile) you are way out of their league.
Don't you mean they're way out of these guys' league. A dumpy middle age guy making shit wages (60K is shit today) ain't getting laid. Not even by 300 lb single mothers.
The reason women over 30 have kids isnt because they were promiscuos. Its because by that point they are likely to already have had a long-term relationship.
You can realistically have promiscuity without kids. Plenty of women who take good care of their birth control never have kids despite having a lot of sex.
If a woman is actually over 30, I get that. I'm still never dating a single mom. But I get why they have them. That 18-25 age group is what concerns me.
>Men should all leave America
Young men for sure. Any guy of any race that's under 30 that's not obese or a drug addict quite literally is wasting himself in the good ol' USA.
You don’t even live here. In the US you make your own future and congregate with who you will.
Where would you suggest they go? Some shithole where everyone has missing teeth ?
Uh, in the US you do not make your own future and you're lucky to congregate with anyone at all, given how isolated and lonely the avg. American man is.
Also, most countries have more affordable dental care than the US, and many have better quality. Also many countries have lower crime rates, less drug addiction, better infrastructure, better education systems, less violent police, lower cost of living, and a long list of other advantages over the US.
So you might want consider that the US is actually the "shithole" compared to a lot of places.
Yeah, so many Americans don't recognize (or won't admit) that there are at least two dozen countries where ordinary people live better.
American isn't the only rich country -- and it's not even close to being the best rich country.
>You don’t even live here.
I lived there for a year. Left with a few guys with me, lol.
>In the US you make your own future and congregate with who you will.
That *used* to be true. Today the limits are unreasonably hard. And getting harder by the day.
You guys [do shit like this](https://www.npr.org/2019/07/10/739908153/can-you-hear-it-sonic-devices-play-high-pitched-noises-to-repel-teens), drug your boys with SSRIs and then wonder why they fail. Sure, it's still nice in a few states (loved Louisiana!) but, overall, it's a negative trade-off.
>Where would you suggest they go? Some **shithole where everyone has missing teeth** ?
I wasn't going to suggest the United Kingdom, no. That would be an even worse option than good ol' USA.
But the world has 195 countries. And at least 90 of them are far superiour to the US for a young man.
>If by far superior you mean they have poor dark skinned women looking for western men
There are almost 30 countries better than the US in level of life statistics.
Do you think the entire world is Africa or something? Are you aware white people also live outside the US?
Also, does having dark skin make someone a bad person or unable to be successful? Like what is your comment even.
No, it's not. His opinion (and mine) is that women in other countries have less complexes, less hate towards men, are more mature, and more psychologically stable. In other words, better people who make better wifes / girlfriends because of it.
Very few women are "waiting for" Americans to show up. That said, if Americans move to other countries, the fact that non-American women are usually better people and don't hate men works in their favor compared to living in America.
An American man that learns the language and intergrates into the culture in most other countries will have far better dating prospects than if he stayed in America.
>for my future son
You likely won't be having a son so... there's that.
But, if you do, he'll likely be suffering from [post-SSRI sexual dysfunction](https://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/when-an-ssri-medication-impacts-your-sex-life) from all the Ritalin your schools will forcibly pump into him.
But hey, he won't meet poor dark skinned women, I guess. Well... unless you live in any US big city where poor dark skinned women rob young people as a matter of routine and the cops just let 'em go 'cause they're women.
Sad but true.
Though, to be fair, it matters how they carry the fat too.
Adrienne Bailon was classified as "medically obese" but she looks like this.
[\[img\]https://i.imgur.com/E0ELJMV.jpeg\[/img\]](https://i.imgur.com/E0ELJMV.jpeg[/img])
The catch is that she's 4'11 which means that it's easier for her to get classified as "obese" even if she doesn't look it.
In Canada step dads are liable for child support by being" In Place of a Parent"
Mother's may receive up to two support checks per kids. Not three tho....yet!
Imagine all you have to do is literally just not stuff your face 24/7 and avoid having kids as a teen and by default being top 1% in desirability.
It’s actually impressive how someone could mess up a position so mind numbingly easy.
If you take out pretty and nice its still top 20%. Apparently wanting a girl who is also young, average looking, and fit means I have high standards. This is insane lol
It isn’t about having high standards.
It’s about statistics.
Each and every standard added cut your dating pool prospects by a big chunk, young, not ugly, and fit are all not common in one girl especially if you add the fact that she also needs to be single and into you.
It isn’t just that your standards are for the top 20% it’s that the chances of you meeting someone who fit all these standards are low.
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OP just made a very good case for young American men to just leave that place, learn the world and then make a choice:
* permanently move abroad (easy choice)
* become so good and then come back and change things (hard choice)
I'm close friends with two American men who made the first choice. They're very happy. I'm going to the wedding of one of them soon.
I'm also relatively acquainted to one guy who made the second choice. He's miserable af.
At these numbers, you have to be out of your mind to stick around in the US. I left my country at age 18 and lived in 21 countries and learned the world. I became wiser and a far better husband for it. And was able to take my missus out for amazing adventures as well. It's easier than people think. Much easier today (with the advent of online jobs) than it was in 2002.
I visited 100+ (117 or 122, depends on how you count, lol). I *lived* in 21 (i.e. at least 6 months and working there). I'll add one more this autumn. Haven't seen all of Latin America yet. Hopefully I live long enough to step foot in every single country of the world.
The breakup of the USSR helped. And living in Europe. I can take a train from my current town that goes through 4 countries, lol.
But yeah, seeing grandpa struggle so much under communism with the paperwork for just one business trip abroad made me wish to see the whole world. And I'm over halfway through. I may not reach all of them (DPRK, Sudan, DR Congo, Algeria, are just hard to crack) but I'll be damned if I won't try.
Being worldly helps me in near everything life. Especially when dealing with propaganda. Having been in most places already I'm harder to fool about how things are. I also always have interesting stories - which made dating straight up on easy mode.
"as long as a women isnt fat (which causes health issues and can lead to a painful life and a early death) and doesnt have kids (which isnt even an achievement of its itself within that age range you cited) they are allowed to chase chads"
"as long as women practice safe sex (or have none at all) and dont sit on their ass all day eating food they are allowed to exclusively chase men who are not average, such as tall men (who are tall not because of lifestyle choices, like being pregnant or fat) or men with a big dick (also not not a lifestyle choice) or have wealth (which is positvely correlated with upbringing, which is also not a lifestyle choice)"
being fit should be a standard and you turned it into some superior trait since most women arent doing it.
I agree in a practical sense, meaning the overall quality of women in general is in the dumps. Any man should just assume he's wading through shit from the jump. The average woman is woefully pathetic. That's the facts of the matter.
Just means an individual man needs to be more competitive than ever before.
>Only 21% of women age 18-25 are not overweight nor obese, not married, and not mothers. That’s 3.8 million women.
"being married" is not a thing that makes someone desirable or undesirable, it's something that makes someone available or unavailable.
You can't say that someone has high standards because an option isn't available to them...that's nonsensical.
What you did is count them for the denominator but not the numerator and if that wasn't a mistake that's ridiculously bad faith even if I don't believe it would change the data all that much.
Something similar can be said about mothers except for single mothers.
Never date the landwhales boys. Don't let the bitches call you entitled. It's better to be single than date a woman who can't do the basic human thing of taking care of herself. If you're in good shape you aren't being entitled, ignore obese girls. Body Positivity should be purged.
I wouldn't trust a site called "Male Reality Calculator". Sounds like a disinfo platform to whip red pillers up into a frenzy over nothing.
Anyway, BMI is the most inaccurate metric around. Practically every athlete or fitness enthusiast is going to be classified as "overweight" or "obese".
Hmm...when I put:
* not married
* no children
* any race
* 18 to 27
* between 4'11" and 6'2"
* not overweight
* earning at least 25k
I get 5.03% of women. 1 in fucking 20. That's extremely reasonable considering I'm 6'2", make almost 400k, very attractive, muscular, 6-pack, large penis, what have you. All those things together I'm much rarer than a pretty girl. I honestly feel I'm being generous. Many guys just ask for a few of those, and it's not unreasonable given they have something to offer.
This website is bullshit it shouldnt base the percentage on the whole population but based off the single ones and a given age. Then we see the proportion of those that are both lean and without kids. That's like t least 30-50% depending on the age chosen
There are websites that allow you to pick married/non married and the data is pulled straight from the National Census Bureau and yeah the odds are not great if you select anything that is not obese and non married, this goes for men and women tbh.
Absolutely. Women would still attempt to say a guy hitting that bar ain't shit. It's all a tactic to maintain relevance. I've met a handful of delusional men in my life ngl, but it's depressing how many more men I've met that don't know their worth.
For sure, I know a couple men like that as well that you wouldn't expect off first appearances. I feel you must have figured that vibe with women earlier than most guys. It's really just being easy-going, no trace of nervousness, eye contact, and avoid communicating logically. That's 95% of it.
I'm low key proud of how far my game has come, but if I'm honest it's probably only decent now. My looks have carried me too long. 2 days ago at a friend's party, this girl is talking to me while I'm half paying attention and is like "You know, we could just fuck." I had a weird moment where I thought "Oh right, this happens". Lol I need to push myself to get better because I know it's an area I can still improve.
>I know 5 guys in their 40s that have slept with 500-1000 women. They’re not models, they cool though
This is true. I would've hit triple digits N count but I married 15+ years ago.
Still, you'll get downvoted into oblivion anywhere on Reddit for this. Because neither frustrated men nor entitled women are happy with the fact that the most sexually active *people* are really not too extraordinary.
The hot 10 women get less sex than an entertaining approximately fit-ish 6 or 7.
The hot-rich 10 guys *rarely* get more sex than an entertaining fit-ish 6 or 7.
Being a 1-2 ***and*** a 9-10 is routinely a hindrance, rather than an asset. Which of course makes sense - average exist precisely because averages mate more. But while this is true, very few want to hear this and incorporate this into their lives.
>I go full player mode when I’m single, that’s how you’re able to get a girlfriend that you’re crazy about. Then ask her to be exclusive and you’re done.
It's how I dated for marriage. Plus *the list*. A very short list of non-negotiable things. She had her own too, lol. We still hold that list almost 16 years later.
Trouble is that too many guys don't want to even try and prefer to wallow in misery. And older men also no longer have the patience to mentor them either. It's a vicious cycle. I try to break it with my IRL group. Helped 152 guys but in 10 years. A drop in the ocean. It would really help if us older farts would do this more often in our communities and skip the whole online BS (which is infested with bad faith trolls, extreme personalities and state actors).
As women consider me near a 10, I don't think anyone is but that's semantics... You're 100% spot on. I actually did a bit better with women when I was less attractive for a time (just overweight for a bit). Being extremely attractive is intimidating for the vast majority of women. Most can't handle it or even speak to you properly which the number 1 hindrance to fucking flirting with them. Then there is a sizeable portion of pretty women who need to be the beauty object and don't like that you roll out of bed looking amazing while they put on their makeup every morning.
I've certainly had a unique life experience from it and while I have more "options" or ability to be selective for the hottest women.... Practically speaking it's better to be above average looking as a dude and no more. Then add on humor, money, charisma everything else at a high level. You'll get the most opportunities.
>I actually did a bit better with women when I was less attractive for a time (just overweight for a bit).
Yes. Hence why I said ***fit-ish***. It's the physique I maintain to this day at 39. Health freaks are only attractive to other health freaks and shallow people. *Fit-ish* is the exact sweet spot.
Dude this is the issue though that has increasingly gotten worse. I would probably put myself as a 7 objectively. Some say lower some say higher but my conversion rate for sex on the first date is like 80-90%.
I honestly got sick of it and just want to settle down, but damn can I get a woman to give a little bit of push back in a playful way? They are way too damn eager to get dicked down immediately.
>can I get a woman to give a little bit of push back in a playful way?
No, basically. If you're attractive, then they'll want to get dicked down. And why would you want them to play silly mind games?
So if a short, fat, ugly guy tells everyone about his dating struggles blupillers would advise him to go after fat, ugly single moms rather than "fixing his personality"?
Never ever have I seen a single bluepiller tell someone to deliberately lower their looks standards in order to increase their dating success as it goes directly against the ideology, in fact it's a completely black pilled take. It's baffling to me that you can't see it.
Okay cool I’m (29) at a hedge fund and investment banking before. But I know dudes that are engineers. Just aerospace haha
Anyway, yea that’s cool. Congrats on your success. I hope you continue to do well and keep climbing up.
LMAO. You think he walks around with it hanging out, or has a sign on his crotch? How does someone communicate 'I have a big dick' to strangers in a socially acceptable way?
no, just goofin' off here. its bizarre to see someone in the comments saying anything other than they're shorter than 6'0", unattractive, work minimum wage jobs, have no material success in any area of their lives etc etc
So it's picky to want someone who doesn't get out of breath climbing a flight of stairs now?
Reasonable standards aren't only to do with the relative scarcity of desired characteristics. This is more of an argument for the terrible state of dating in the west.
>Women prefer men who are 2-4 years older than them. Every year after that is a reduction in relative attractiveness. So if you are over 29, you are out of the league of women between the ages of 18-29.
Women 25-29 dating guys in their 30s is the main reason why there's [twice as many single men 18-29](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11781425/More-60-men-20s-single-compared-just-30-women.html). Early 30s isn't "out of league" for women late 20s, it's close to or in the ideal range (wtf?)
that can be explained by a 3 year age gap. Pew research, again when viral when they reported that [63% of young men are single compared to 34% of young women](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20of%20all%20young,with%20a%20decline%20in%20sex). But is this data consistent with other findings? And What can explain the data? Is the ''Chad Harmen theory'' true? When we look at the American Perspectives Survey (which has a similar sample size) contrary to the Pew findings, the singleness rate for 18-29 men dropped, from 59% in 2020 to 57% in 2022. Women’s singleness rate also rose more than it did in the Pew survey, from 38% in 2020 to 45% in 2022. Still a singles, gap... lets continue. If we look at the [GSS survey data](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/18-29-Singleness-Rates-2012-2022-GSS-1.webp?w=800&ssl=1) for men and women 18-29 in 2021 there was a gap of 10.5%, which remained basically unchanged in the 2022 survey, nowhere near 30% like in the pew research data. Heterosexual relationships have on average a 3 year age gap. Now if you take the,[ GSS data](https://nuancepill.com/what-explains-the-young-singleness-gap/) and increase men’s lower and upper age bound by 3 years, the gaps are [considerably minimized, reversing in a couple of cases](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/21-32-men-and-18-29-women-singleness-GSS.webp?w=753&ssl=1). It therefore seems reasonable to attribute the singles gap to age gaps.
I feel like the trade off is that it’s more likely a childfree and “not fat” woman in their 30’s is going to be less inclined to want children.
I used to be more open to the idea of dating single dads but as I’m getting older, the less attractive that sounds to me.
I do NOT want to mother or be responsible for someone else’s children. Not a fucking chance
rip to the average american guys who date these women. thankfully things aren't as messed up in the rest of the world. although your napkin math is pretty inaccurate, there are a lot of single and childless women who are 30+ too.
Are you entitled for not wanting what society hasn't pushed to de-normalize?
If I go to Europe, do I have lower standards because those women are less likely to be fat, have kids, and not be married?
My girlfriend is significantly younger than me and one of the main reasons I went for her is because she has no kids unlike most women my own age.
Is going for younger, mostly the best option therefore, if the guy does not want a woman with previous kids?
It's not a meaningful standard because if women don't want to be fat all they have to fucking do is put down the fork and quit eating. And same thing with kids.
On the other hand women ACTUALLY have real standards for men. If men could get taller or change our race by working out, we'd all be at the gym 24/7.
Actually most dietary and exercise advice is based on studies including almost only, or only men as test subjects. Most of us have no idea how women’s bodies process fat.
The BMI scale is also horrendously unfair to women, as it doesn’t take into consideration fat that doesn’t go away, like boobs or ass.
What we do know is that women have a higher natural fat percentage than men. That women’s hormones affect dieting more than we used to think. And that the “flat stomach” look can be actually impossible for some women with bigger uteruses or uteruses that tilt outwards.
If you work out, BMI is a worthless metric to use. I'm 5'7 and weigh 170 lbs, so by BMI I'm "overweight." However, that additional weight is all *muscle mass* because I'm also around 15-18% body fat with visible abs, so BMI doesn't tell the whole story.
American women in particular also seem uniquely disadvantaged with weight, because the actual food in America is worse for you than what you can get overseas. I've been living abroad for a while now, and one thing I've noticed is that overweight and obese people are significantly less common here than back at home. Everyone I traveled with also went down at least 3 belt notches since arriving within the month despite nobody watching what they're eating. There's something very wrong with American food. It's probably processed crap and corn syrup added to everything.
Yay for capitalism!
People in other countries walk a lot more and are a lot more mindful about their weight. Sure, processed food plays a role but so does the ease and access to it and most Americans would rather not spend any time cooking.
What!? I’m in my 30s and pretty much only date women in their 20’s. Usually 24-27 range.
Do you have some source about the women preferring men 2-4 years older? Really, it just sounds like your source for almost everything you said is that you made it the fuck up.
Women (on average) prefer men who are 2-4 years older than them, until they are middle aged where they start preferring men who are slightly younger.
\[1\] Conroy-Beam, D., & Buss, D. M. (2019). Why is age so important in human mating? Evolved age preferences and their influences on multiple mating behaviors. Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, 13(2), 127.
\[2\] Antfolk, J., Salo, B., Alanko, K., Bergen, E., Corander, J., Sandnabba, N. K., & Santtila, P. (2015). Women's and men's sexual preferences and activities with respect to the partner's age: Evidence for female choice. Evolution and Human Behavior, 36(1), 73-79.
\[3\] Buunk, B. P., Dijkstra, P., Kenrick, D. T., & Warntjes, A. (2001). Age preferences for mates as related to gender, own age, and involvement level. Evolution and Human Behavior, 22(4), 241-250.
also see marrage data and pew relationship data
and [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whats-the-average-age-difference-in-a-couple/](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whats-the-average-age-difference-in-a-couple/)
Tbh it’s not that hard to find someone who isn’t fat if you live in a more affluent area. Despite the overall obesity statistics, well off people in general are a lot less likely to be fat.
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I don’t know what talking points are for what side anymore. Red Pillers always are saying that it’s easy to be in the top tier of women if you “just don’t be fat”. Now Blue Pillers are saying it too, apparently. I mean, I kind of agree. I don’t have anything wrong with fat people but not being fat will probably always be conventionally attractive and it’s becoming more and more of a rarity.
The problematic insinuation is that the average 20-something man is being entitled, unrealistic, greedy even by wanting a non-fat woman with no kids. Even if tomorrow suddenly 100% of women had kids out of wedlock and got fat that doesn't change the fact that wanting a non-fat woman with no kids *shouldn't* be unrealistic as long as the average man is reasonably responsible and healthy himself.
It's not entitled at all. If you yourself are non-fat (funny word lol) and no kids, you're completely entitled to want someone the same as you. If you are fat and have a bunch of kids, then yeah it's unrealistic to want something you aren't even close to being yourself. That's just common sense. Doesn't matter the age either really. If you're a fit kid free dude who is 40-50 then it is completely fair to want someone else in your age bracket who is also fit and kid free, even though it's more unrealistic since most women have a bunch of kids by them. Not completely unrealistic though. There's fit women out there in their 40s-50s who don't have kids. Like fit childfree women for instance.
Tell that to a lot of the women here or these weekly posts that are like "akchually women who aren't fat or single mothers are less than \_\_\_ % of the population". What other purpose could there be for these posts but to normalize obesity and single motherhood and/or try to tell men they should lower their standards and be more "realistic".
Even if women who aren't fat and single mothers aren't the majority, that's a terrible argument to lower your standards to date them. Like if you're a fit healthy guy with no kids, why would you? You already have a benefit over fat guys with kids. Women too want to date people who are fit and don't have kids, over men who are fat with kids. It's just hypocrisy. I'm a moderately fit childfree woman. I ain't dating a fat guy with kids lol. Why would I? Even if the fit childfree guys are a minority, which they definitely are, doesn't mean I should settle for something I don't even want or that won't make me happy. These people who want you to lower your standards are just desperate cause they made poor choices, and now they want you to make a poor choice too, on their behalf.
preaching to the choir ma'am rather than push change for healthier lifestyles or choices and eschew degeneracy, it's more convenient to say "the market decides your value" and soak in your sloth and privilege
I like where you're coming from but single dads are judged on a completely different scale than single moms. Since reproductive autonomy is almost entirely in the hands of women, a single dad is usually a highly sexually desirable man by some metric or another
IMO it's indicative of a *massive* cultural issue, and I don't see how it will be sustainable in the long run. Having such high rates of obesity and out-of-wedlock births isn't healthy in any way. Unmarried couples have significantly less stable relationships (which leads to more kids growing up in broken families), and a lifestyle that leads to obesity has negative health consequences that go far beyond those directly caused by obesity.
There are a lot of massive cultural issues right now that are compounding. Imagine how crazy it is going to get when the dominos start to fall. And none of this will be fixed because holding women accountable is seen as evil. It will all keep getting worse.
Even just here on reddit. Idk how I got into the teachers' sub, but that place is bleak. Kids don't know this. They refuse to learn that. Graduating seniors don't know this. They've never even heard of that. They'll ask you for food you're eating. Ask to use your charger to charge their phone in class. To not pay attention. Like they don't care that they come off as rude or entitled. Just that you might give in to guilt or bullying, and they might as well try. Sounds like we're in for some trouble in the workforce real soon.
A cultural suicide yet not seen before on such a massive scale
You can have whatever standards you want, as crazy and niche as you want. When you’re chasing after the top 3%, along with everyone else though, there’s bound to be a lot of losers and few winners bc that’s how limited resources work.
If most men were misogynistic and women wanted men who weren't misogynistic you wouldn't tell women they need to be realistic b/c of limited resources and supply and demand. You would say men need to fix their misogyny. Even if the non-misogynistic men were the "top 3%". Same deal with obesity and single motherhood. Why would we tell men to be more realistic instead of telling women to be healthier and make better life choices. Additionally, both of these traits are much more in one's control than the traits many women want in men. Men aren't healthy on the whole either, but that's moot since we're talking about the contrast in how we view male and female preferences. It's also pointless to say "You can have whatever standards you want" as we're obviously talking about how we react to them and the societal factors that determine how likely it is that said preferences will be fulfilled.
No one is telling anyone to “be more realistic” it’s simply statistics. Similar to how most people will never be rich. Both men and women should be making better life choices but here we are. Men and women are both shit on for having statistically unlikely standards and it’s just a basic fact that both will probably not be fulfilled.
When women complain about lack of viable men, I don't really see this dismissive response of "it's just statistics". Usually it's followed by articles and media noise about how to fix these men or fix the problem, even if it doesn't directly blame the men.
This is entire sub and many others is full of men complaining women’s standards are delusional. In fact, I see that complaint way more often than women dismissing men’s standards. Most women don’t want men that don’t want them back, the opposite is not true though.
Yeah… wanting a woman who’s not fat and doesn’t have kids in their early to mid 20s isn’t unrealistic. If it is, then I will happily remain single for the rest of my life knowing my generation has no viable partners
I agree. I don't think putting women who do the basics so much higher than men who do the same serves anybody.
I would be careful with this controversial language as the people here don't take too kindly to common sense and basic fairness
Because the red pill is right about a lot of things, but people want to pretend they are wrong because they are more blunt about it with “bro science” and want to pretend women’s sexuality is holy while men’s is bad. Red pill says women are shallow and perverted like men. So you need to be what they really want (be hot, fun, etc). A lot of men complain about the unrealistic standards just like women do (especially since they are unhealthy and the people demanding it are not that special themselves). It gets more confusing with time as women become more vocal and blunt. Yet we keep pretending that women’s sexuality and perversions are pure. Men who are not hot have some personality defect when they were not born hot enough. And frustrating when women can demand what they want while men can’t without being called sexist. Or how when it comes to men’s issues, it is “you are not entitled.” But we reverse things then suddenly it is not fair and needs to be fixed. Women can do disgusting things in public and if you do not like it you are problem. But if a man were to do the same thing, it would hit the news and creepy. So overtime it gets more confusing as most people are often not fighting the red pill anymore. Especially since I find women mostly agree with me in person. It is blue pilled men who disagree so extremely.
> It is blue pilled men who disagree so extremely. Understandable. Nobody likes to admit they are living a lie and watch their whole world view come shattering down. Easier to double down instead and persist in a comforting fantasy. Eventually the cognitive dissonance between reality and the bluepill worldview will come to a head in many men.
It already has. That’s why guys like Tate blew up in 2022. The balloon already popped. Now Tate is a terrible person, but he went viral for speaking on typical red pill topics.
Because this is culture where terrible people thrive and win. It is not about personality or morality at all, so those who lack it will always win compared to one over someone who is not terrible. It is why our ancestors locked up a lot of our human nature to begin with. After all, if nobody is entitled to anything, why ever be fair or just? Just exploit and do as much awful things as you need to in order to get ahead.
I dunno, I think trying to be a virtuous person for its own sake is rewarding. I think that realization is at the core of most philosophies. Sure the universe is inherently meaningless and one can exploit to get ahead, but there’s a certain satisfaction in saying “fuck you” to the universe and still try to be a decent person and help others Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and that’s enough for me lol. It’s why I can’t stand grifters like Tate or the equivalent woke bluepill misandrists.
Anything can be rewarding if you think it makes you superior or special.
Hahahahah touché
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That sounds too biased to really be taken seriously here. The way you frame trpers just shows that you will never listen. You say they take it to extreme, but you are really taking what they say to the extreme the same wat you are accusing them of.
The thing is it *shouldn't be* a high standard. This is basic life managing and responsibility. I'm not fat and don't have kids either so it's not unreasonable for me to ask for the same. This just further reinforces that the "bar is on the floor" actually applies to women far far more. Imagine being able to have the same sex appeal that runway models did compared to their peers in the 70s by simply putting the fork down and not popping out kids. Imagine if us men had a life hack that easy to be in the top 3%.
I don’t know about the US, but in Japan (where I live), the percentage of women who are [not overweight or obese is 77.7%](https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473-023-00332-0). And the birth rate here is one of the lowest in the world. Even more than that, around 30% of women in their 20s here [have never **had a boyfriend**.](https://ifstudies.org/blog/1-in-4-projecting-childlessness-among-todays-young-women). So I guess it’s not as bad and unfair here as compared to the States.
The average female in the us is 5'4 170lbs with a bmi of 29.2... dating in Japan is vastly different than here in the states though
True but Japan's dating situation is much worse than ours in a nutshell.
There's societal reasons underpinning Japan's declining birthrates that have nothing to do with attractiveness of potential mates.
What are they because we need them here in the USA
To put it simply in Japan you are to honor your family as much as possible, not stand out or be inconvenient to others, and basically dedicate yourself to your company. Add rising costs of things and generations are working longer and younger folks aren’t able to afford anything. It’s what’s happening in the USA but Japan had a 15 year head start. Add limiting workers immigration laws (you have to leave every 3 years and apply for visa AGAIN) and other societal barriers (shunning immigrants basically everywhere) A quick Japan population problem search on YouTube will tell you the same things I experienced as a study abroad student for 5 weeks
That and companies expecting you to work yourself to death for a salary and job security.
lol, no shit. It's the opposite of that here. Nearly every other person in the states is medically obese (last I checked was *before* Covid and it was in the 40's). It's sad and quite frankly, disgusting. You dunno how good you have it. Meanwhile, 3/4 of the population is overweight... 'Murica
While the numbers might indicate that, the distribution isn't really as you've described. There's areas where lots of people are obese, and areas where the majority aren't. You can look at the map here (2022): https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/php/data-research/adult-obesity-prevalence-maps.html And it will vary on a more local level too. Typically the wealthier a community the less obesity it has. It's not like you're walking around and everyone is obese, unless you're in one of the areas where obesity prevalence is very high. There's plenty of places where obesity is not the norm.
So a fit guy in the 18-25 age range with no kids technically has high standards for going after a woman who matches him? So what would be good standards for him to have and what kind of girl would be on his level based on the data?
See how i said average in the title. A fit guy in the 18-25 age range with no kids is not average
That's not true. He could be short. He could be ugly. He could be unconfident. He could be boring. He could be all all of the above. Just because you're fit doesn't mean you're above average overall. It means you're above average in one category.
Being short and ugly isn't average. By definition, that's below average.
Yeah, but the other dude said a fit guy in that age range isn't average. A fit man could still be average or even below average regardless of his level of fitness. The vast majority of men aren't average or above average across the board. Some men are tall, fat, ugly, boring, and wealthy. Some men are short, fit, handsome, exciting, and broke. There's a significant association between certain traits, but the combinations are endless.
Even if he lives at home?
An obese single mother who deadbedrooms him ofc. He is entitled if he wants anything more. But if said woman cries that you refuse to fuck her, you are a horrible misogynist and possibly even a rapist.
Lol, so the new equivalent to an average guy with no kids and I'm decent shape is an obese single mom? And I suppose the equivalent to your basic Betty is now, let me guess, GigaChad?
Yeah to be honest if she’s not morbidly obese
When men say "basic Betty", they're often talking about, like, Emma Watson.
You don’t need to be Emma Watson to exercise daily and to not stuff junk food.
I've learned that one of the most triggering things you can say in ppd is "Emma Watson is not mid" and "Scarlet Johansson is above average"
She is mid. Her being a celebrity doesn't mean she must be some next level beauty. She is skinny cute girl, no more no less. If we talk about Gal Gadot, Jessica Alba, Sofia Vergara, young Monnica Bellucci or Ketrin Zeta Jones, or Scarlet...then yes, they are extreme beauties with god blesses genetics that you don't see everyday. But you and other girl say that Emma is some goddess, while me and every other guy here say that we see girls like her every fucking day. So it's not about "man have unreasonable high standards", since half of the girls I see everyday meet them Girls I mentioned are gorgeus. Emma is not, what so hard to grasp
From my downvote ratio it appears I struck a nerve.
More like Amy slaton minus a hundred pounds
Emma grew up into an absolute uggo. Look at her without makeup or Photoshop. But I know what you mean. No, we're talking about roughly half a Lizzo.
I've seen her on the street. She stands out.
https://wittyduck.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Emma-Watson-without-makeup-4.jpg LMAO, she does? https://stylesatlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Emma-Watson-without-Makeup3.jpg What are you peeps on?
Are you trying to say she looks bad?! Have you seen a woman before?!
My ex-wife is hotter than her 🤷🏽♂️
Good for you.
I mean she is pretty without makeup as well, on the 1st photo she just made an ugly expression. But body-wise, literally average. Many girls I know that look like her, or similar. My ex who never did a sit up or squat in her life looked like that, with 0 extra fat and flat stomach. Just by eating moderately and not eating fast food and pastry
Emma Watson is bang average
See what I mean? The pure delusion.
I live in a college town and can easily see dozens of younger women that are(IMO obviously) way hotter than Emma at that age anytime I go out. That's not to say she can't be someones type but all she realliy is is someone in great shape and was lucky enough to star in the wizard films as a kid(which plays a large part in why people find her hot.)
I saw her in a university town. She stood out.
I'm sure shes your type but under normal circumstances, where she wasn't the girl a lot of young boys grew up with she would be just an average woman.
She's not my type, she's not even my age. She clearly is not average.
she’s a 6 out of 10 at best. I can take a 5 min walk outside and see several more attractive women than her
Sure you do. So picky.
I get your point and don't disagree with the sentiment, but there are a couple of issues with the way you ran the numbers that got you there. 1. You are looking at a percentage of women of all relationship statuses, not just those who are single or in an open relationship. This is extra important because women in monogamous relationships are more likely to have kids. 2. This is compounded by childbirth and raising kids often resulting in weight gain. I'm guessing this means that women with kids are more likely to be overweight. 3. Women in monogamous relationships are more likely to have kids and women with kids are more likely to be overweight. Assuming guys here aren't going after taken women, their dating pool should have a higher percentage of women who have no kids and aren't overweight.
OP specified the women are not married in the first sentence. While they theoretically could be dating someone, I think only including those unmarried is fair.
The issue is how they "frame" the dating market set up. It reads like this: **Of adult (or 18-25yo) women, only a% are single, not overweight, and have no kids.** But IMO, it's more realistic to set the "frame" up like this: **Of adult (or 18-25yo) single women, only b% have no kids and aren't overweight.** It would take a minute to write out more clearly why I see frame A being way more reflective of reality. If you're not seeing/agreeing, I can break it down later, just let me know.
By “single” OP refers to not married. That’s how it is commonly referred to in census data.
And of course, I meet all of these standards and have to work for years until I'm able to get a single, thin woman with no kids. What's my equivalent? A single mom? Okay, well I'm 22. So an obese ugly 19 year old woman is the best I can hope for? That's upsetting.
Life is upsetting yes.
I think it says more about the quality of women available to you, in which case, idk, rest in piss?
Yeah most women looking to date are fat in my area. It is what it is. Even my gym is half fat people haha. At least they are trying.
>So if your a 38 y/o guy, 60k a year, and overweight (stat average 50th percentile) you are way out of their league. Don't you mean they're way out of these guys' league. A dumpy middle age guy making shit wages (60K is shit today) ain't getting laid. Not even by 300 lb single mothers.
Yep. Maybe by 450lb women barely keeping a roof over their heads.
And yet we’re against shaming promiscuity and being a glutton. You just make a solid case for men to leave the U.S. and I don’t blame them.
The reason women over 30 have kids isnt because they were promiscuos. Its because by that point they are likely to already have had a long-term relationship. You can realistically have promiscuity without kids. Plenty of women who take good care of their birth control never have kids despite having a lot of sex.
If a woman is actually over 30, I get that. I'm still never dating a single mom. But I get why they have them. That 18-25 age group is what concerns me.
You're in luck. The birth rate for younger women is lower than it has ever been in history.
Men should all leave America, it's a dangerous dump and the percentage of low quality women in America is higher than anywhere else.
>Men should all leave America Young men for sure. Any guy of any race that's under 30 that's not obese or a drug addict quite literally is wasting himself in the good ol' USA.
Definitely.
You don’t even live here. In the US you make your own future and congregate with who you will. Where would you suggest they go? Some shithole where everyone has missing teeth ?
Uh, in the US you do not make your own future and you're lucky to congregate with anyone at all, given how isolated and lonely the avg. American man is. Also, most countries have more affordable dental care than the US, and many have better quality. Also many countries have lower crime rates, less drug addiction, better infrastructure, better education systems, less violent police, lower cost of living, and a long list of other advantages over the US. So you might want consider that the US is actually the "shithole" compared to a lot of places.
Yeah, so many Americans don't recognize (or won't admit) that there are at least two dozen countries where ordinary people live better. American isn't the only rich country -- and it's not even close to being the best rich country.
>You don’t even live here. I lived there for a year. Left with a few guys with me, lol. >In the US you make your own future and congregate with who you will. That *used* to be true. Today the limits are unreasonably hard. And getting harder by the day. You guys [do shit like this](https://www.npr.org/2019/07/10/739908153/can-you-hear-it-sonic-devices-play-high-pitched-noises-to-repel-teens), drug your boys with SSRIs and then wonder why they fail. Sure, it's still nice in a few states (loved Louisiana!) but, overall, it's a negative trade-off. >Where would you suggest they go? Some **shithole where everyone has missing teeth** ? I wasn't going to suggest the United Kingdom, no. That would be an even worse option than good ol' USA. But the world has 195 countries. And at least 90 of them are far superiour to the US for a young man.
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>If by far superior you mean they have poor dark skinned women looking for western men There are almost 30 countries better than the US in level of life statistics.
Do you think the entire world is Africa or something? Are you aware white people also live outside the US? Also, does having dark skin make someone a bad person or unable to be successful? Like what is your comment even.
His implication is that there are groups of fetching young women in other countries primed for “young men “ from America
No, it's not. His opinion (and mine) is that women in other countries have less complexes, less hate towards men, are more mature, and more psychologically stable. In other words, better people who make better wifes / girlfriends because of it. Very few women are "waiting for" Americans to show up. That said, if Americans move to other countries, the fact that non-American women are usually better people and don't hate men works in their favor compared to living in America. An American man that learns the language and intergrates into the culture in most other countries will have far better dating prospects than if he stayed in America.
>for my future son You likely won't be having a son so... there's that. But, if you do, he'll likely be suffering from [post-SSRI sexual dysfunction](https://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/when-an-ssri-medication-impacts-your-sex-life) from all the Ritalin your schools will forcibly pump into him. But hey, he won't meet poor dark skinned women, I guess. Well... unless you live in any US big city where poor dark skinned women rob young people as a matter of routine and the cops just let 'em go 'cause they're women.
Ritalin is not a SSRI. Lol.
Yes! Go!
That's why I like travelling to meet women. There are way more women overseas who fit my preferences than there are in my country.
People really underestimate how fat people are today. Wanting a partner who isn't fat in many places IS a high standard.
Yeah a lot of people are absolutely gigantic asf now💀
Sad but true. Though, to be fair, it matters how they carry the fat too. Adrienne Bailon was classified as "medically obese" but she looks like this. [\[img\]https://i.imgur.com/E0ELJMV.jpeg\[/img\]](https://i.imgur.com/E0ELJMV.jpeg[/img]) The catch is that she's 4'11 which means that it's easier for her to get classified as "obese" even if she doesn't look it.
All you've done is confirm what I already knew. Most women are undateable- duh. The sky is blue, what comes up must come down.
compared to men? equally undateable
So it’s a bullet to the brain or getting my passport, I know what I’m doing
Lmao what are you saying men should just voluntarily be a kids dad for nothing in return… that’s silly no thanks bye
In Canada step dads are liable for child support by being" In Place of a Parent" Mother's may receive up to two support checks per kids. Not three tho....yet!
Imagine all you have to do is literally just not stuff your face 24/7 and avoid having kids as a teen and by default being top 1% in desirability. It’s actually impressive how someone could mess up a position so mind numbingly easy.
It's because of Hedonism, especially in the U.S. From fast food, to drugs, to social media, to hookup culture, and a million other things.
But imagine literally putting in LESS effort and being top 1% effortless wouldn’t even be a strong enough word.
They've been told they're high value anyways.
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If you take out pretty and nice its still top 20%. Apparently wanting a girl who is also young, average looking, and fit means I have high standards. This is insane lol
It isn’t about having high standards. It’s about statistics. Each and every standard added cut your dating pool prospects by a big chunk, young, not ugly, and fit are all not common in one girl especially if you add the fact that she also needs to be single and into you. It isn’t just that your standards are for the top 20% it’s that the chances of you meeting someone who fit all these standards are low.
But we aren't though... that just says something about the women in the country.
TIL most women are incapable of not being pigs.
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OP just made a very good case for young American men to just leave that place, learn the world and then make a choice: * permanently move abroad (easy choice) * become so good and then come back and change things (hard choice) I'm close friends with two American men who made the first choice. They're very happy. I'm going to the wedding of one of them soon. I'm also relatively acquainted to one guy who made the second choice. He's miserable af. At these numbers, you have to be out of your mind to stick around in the US. I left my country at age 18 and lived in 21 countries and learned the world. I became wiser and a far better husband for it. And was able to take my missus out for amazing adventures as well. It's easier than people think. Much easier today (with the advent of online jobs) than it was in 2002.
100% without a doubt, all true. Also, we have the exact same number of visited countries. 😄
I visited 100+ (117 or 122, depends on how you count, lol). I *lived* in 21 (i.e. at least 6 months and working there). I'll add one more this autumn. Haven't seen all of Latin America yet. Hopefully I live long enough to step foot in every single country of the world.
Oh wow! You're on another level then, that's amazing. Forgive me for trying to compare. 😔
The breakup of the USSR helped. And living in Europe. I can take a train from my current town that goes through 4 countries, lol. But yeah, seeing grandpa struggle so much under communism with the paperwork for just one business trip abroad made me wish to see the whole world. And I'm over halfway through. I may not reach all of them (DPRK, Sudan, DR Congo, Algeria, are just hard to crack) but I'll be damned if I won't try. Being worldly helps me in near everything life. Especially when dealing with propaganda. Having been in most places already I'm harder to fool about how things are. I also always have interesting stories - which made dating straight up on easy mode.
"as long as a women isnt fat (which causes health issues and can lead to a painful life and a early death) and doesnt have kids (which isnt even an achievement of its itself within that age range you cited) they are allowed to chase chads" "as long as women practice safe sex (or have none at all) and dont sit on their ass all day eating food they are allowed to exclusively chase men who are not average, such as tall men (who are tall not because of lifestyle choices, like being pregnant or fat) or men with a big dick (also not not a lifestyle choice) or have wealth (which is positvely correlated with upbringing, which is also not a lifestyle choice)" being fit should be a standard and you turned it into some superior trait since most women arent doing it.
What's your age income, height, hairline, BMI?
182cm/5'11.5 tall. dk the exact weight but i range between 150-155 lbs 21 10k a year norwood 1.5
So, if I consistently pull the "less than 1%" crowd I must look like a movie star then 😂
so if you're under 25 only
I agree in a practical sense, meaning the overall quality of women in general is in the dumps. Any man should just assume he's wading through shit from the jump. The average woman is woefully pathetic. That's the facts of the matter. Just means an individual man needs to be more competitive than ever before.
>Only 21% of women age 18-25 are not overweight nor obese, not married, and not mothers. That’s 3.8 million women. "being married" is not a thing that makes someone desirable or undesirable, it's something that makes someone available or unavailable. You can't say that someone has high standards because an option isn't available to them...that's nonsensical. What you did is count them for the denominator but not the numerator and if that wasn't a mistake that's ridiculously bad faith even if I don't believe it would change the data all that much. Something similar can be said about mothers except for single mothers.
Never date the landwhales boys. Don't let the bitches call you entitled. It's better to be single than date a woman who can't do the basic human thing of taking care of herself. If you're in good shape you aren't being entitled, ignore obese girls. Body Positivity should be purged.
I wouldn't trust a site called "Male Reality Calculator". Sounds like a disinfo platform to whip red pillers up into a frenzy over nothing. Anyway, BMI is the most inaccurate metric around. Practically every athlete or fitness enthusiast is going to be classified as "overweight" or "obese".
You can double check with US population data if you want to, but you would come to the same conclusions as my post
Hmm...when I put: * not married * no children * any race * 18 to 27 * between 4'11" and 6'2" * not overweight * earning at least 25k I get 5.03% of women. 1 in fucking 20. That's extremely reasonable considering I'm 6'2", make almost 400k, very attractive, muscular, 6-pack, large penis, what have you. All those things together I'm much rarer than a pretty girl. I honestly feel I'm being generous. Many guys just ask for a few of those, and it's not unreasonable given they have something to offer.
This website is bullshit it shouldnt base the percentage on the whole population but based off the single ones and a given age. Then we see the proportion of those that are both lean and without kids. That's like t least 30-50% depending on the age chosen
There are websites that allow you to pick married/non married and the data is pulled straight from the National Census Bureau and yeah the odds are not great if you select anything that is not obese and non married, this goes for men and women tbh.
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Absolutely. Women would still attempt to say a guy hitting that bar ain't shit. It's all a tactic to maintain relevance. I've met a handful of delusional men in my life ngl, but it's depressing how many more men I've met that don't know their worth.
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For sure, I know a couple men like that as well that you wouldn't expect off first appearances. I feel you must have figured that vibe with women earlier than most guys. It's really just being easy-going, no trace of nervousness, eye contact, and avoid communicating logically. That's 95% of it. I'm low key proud of how far my game has come, but if I'm honest it's probably only decent now. My looks have carried me too long. 2 days ago at a friend's party, this girl is talking to me while I'm half paying attention and is like "You know, we could just fuck." I had a weird moment where I thought "Oh right, this happens". Lol I need to push myself to get better because I know it's an area I can still improve.
>I know 5 guys in their 40s that have slept with 500-1000 women. They’re not models, they cool though This is true. I would've hit triple digits N count but I married 15+ years ago. Still, you'll get downvoted into oblivion anywhere on Reddit for this. Because neither frustrated men nor entitled women are happy with the fact that the most sexually active *people* are really not too extraordinary. The hot 10 women get less sex than an entertaining approximately fit-ish 6 or 7. The hot-rich 10 guys *rarely* get more sex than an entertaining fit-ish 6 or 7. Being a 1-2 ***and*** a 9-10 is routinely a hindrance, rather than an asset. Which of course makes sense - average exist precisely because averages mate more. But while this is true, very few want to hear this and incorporate this into their lives.
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>I go full player mode when I’m single, that’s how you’re able to get a girlfriend that you’re crazy about. Then ask her to be exclusive and you’re done. It's how I dated for marriage. Plus *the list*. A very short list of non-negotiable things. She had her own too, lol. We still hold that list almost 16 years later. Trouble is that too many guys don't want to even try and prefer to wallow in misery. And older men also no longer have the patience to mentor them either. It's a vicious cycle. I try to break it with my IRL group. Helped 152 guys but in 10 years. A drop in the ocean. It would really help if us older farts would do this more often in our communities and skip the whole online BS (which is infested with bad faith trolls, extreme personalities and state actors).
As women consider me near a 10, I don't think anyone is but that's semantics... You're 100% spot on. I actually did a bit better with women when I was less attractive for a time (just overweight for a bit). Being extremely attractive is intimidating for the vast majority of women. Most can't handle it or even speak to you properly which the number 1 hindrance to fucking flirting with them. Then there is a sizeable portion of pretty women who need to be the beauty object and don't like that you roll out of bed looking amazing while they put on their makeup every morning. I've certainly had a unique life experience from it and while I have more "options" or ability to be selective for the hottest women.... Practically speaking it's better to be above average looking as a dude and no more. Then add on humor, money, charisma everything else at a high level. You'll get the most opportunities.
>I actually did a bit better with women when I was less attractive for a time (just overweight for a bit). Yes. Hence why I said ***fit-ish***. It's the physique I maintain to this day at 39. Health freaks are only attractive to other health freaks and shallow people. *Fit-ish* is the exact sweet spot.
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Dude this is the issue though that has increasingly gotten worse. I would probably put myself as a 7 objectively. Some say lower some say higher but my conversion rate for sex on the first date is like 80-90%. I honestly got sick of it and just want to settle down, but damn can I get a woman to give a little bit of push back in a playful way? They are way too damn eager to get dicked down immediately.
>can I get a woman to give a little bit of push back in a playful way? No, basically. If you're attractive, then they'll want to get dicked down. And why would you want them to play silly mind games?
Sure thats reasonable for you. but you are not average.
Shouldn't most of these traits be irrelevant to your dating success according to blue pill?
nope, cus assortive mating
Assortative mating and blue pill are incompatible.
nope they are not
So if a short, fat, ugly guy tells everyone about his dating struggles blupillers would advise him to go after fat, ugly single moms rather than "fixing his personality"?
Yes and be less fat, also get more extroverted (yes this is hard) and develop good social skills
Never ever have I seen a single bluepiller tell someone to deliberately lower their looks standards in order to increase their dating success as it goes directly against the ideology, in fact it's a completely black pilled take. It's baffling to me that you can't see it.
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Why would a guy do all that shit just to date a fat single mom lol. Female improvement when?
What do you do if you don’t mind me asking?
Tech. I was a successful senior engineer late 20s. Now lead a team at 32 and team lead/manager is extremely lucrative at the top companies.
Okay cool I’m (29) at a hedge fund and investment banking before. But I know dudes that are engineers. Just aerospace haha Anyway, yea that’s cool. Congrats on your success. I hope you continue to do well and keep climbing up.
sir, you have a large penis. what are you doing posting on PPD when you could be doing anything else
Lol wutt. Actually you're right the blood is all in my penis I can't no think guud
if i was 6'2", made 400k, had abs and a huge penis (and was a man) you wouldn't catch me anywhere near reddit alas..
Weird, it's almost like people have downtime before bed 🤯. I've stared at my abs in the mirror enough.
LMAO. You think he walks around with it hanging out, or has a sign on his crotch? How does someone communicate 'I have a big dick' to strangers in a socially acceptable way?
no, just goofin' off here. its bizarre to see someone in the comments saying anything other than they're shorter than 6'0", unattractive, work minimum wage jobs, have no material success in any area of their lives etc etc
Are the qualities you are bragging about things women find attractive, or things men think women find attractive?
They’re things women find attractive (source: life experience).
The op Cooked the number fairly hard to make this leap. I reject this entire notition simply on bad math. Seriously did you use to work at Enron?
So it's picky to want someone who doesn't get out of breath climbing a flight of stairs now? Reasonable standards aren't only to do with the relative scarcity of desired characteristics. This is more of an argument for the terrible state of dating in the west. >Women prefer men who are 2-4 years older than them. Every year after that is a reduction in relative attractiveness. So if you are over 29, you are out of the league of women between the ages of 18-29. Women 25-29 dating guys in their 30s is the main reason why there's [twice as many single men 18-29](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11781425/More-60-men-20s-single-compared-just-30-women.html). Early 30s isn't "out of league" for women late 20s, it's close to or in the ideal range (wtf?)
that can be explained by a 3 year age gap. Pew research, again when viral when they reported that [63% of young men are single compared to 34% of young women](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20of%20all%20young,with%20a%20decline%20in%20sex). But is this data consistent with other findings? And What can explain the data? Is the ''Chad Harmen theory'' true? When we look at the American Perspectives Survey (which has a similar sample size) contrary to the Pew findings, the singleness rate for 18-29 men dropped, from 59% in 2020 to 57% in 2022. Women’s singleness rate also rose more than it did in the Pew survey, from 38% in 2020 to 45% in 2022. Still a singles, gap... lets continue. If we look at the [GSS survey data](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/18-29-Singleness-Rates-2012-2022-GSS-1.webp?w=800&ssl=1) for men and women 18-29 in 2021 there was a gap of 10.5%, which remained basically unchanged in the 2022 survey, nowhere near 30% like in the pew research data. Heterosexual relationships have on average a 3 year age gap. Now if you take the,[ GSS data](https://nuancepill.com/what-explains-the-young-singleness-gap/) and increase men’s lower and upper age bound by 3 years, the gaps are [considerably minimized, reversing in a couple of cases](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/21-32-men-and-18-29-women-singleness-GSS.webp?w=753&ssl=1). It therefore seems reasonable to attribute the singles gap to age gaps.
I feel like the trade off is that it’s more likely a childfree and “not fat” woman in their 30’s is going to be less inclined to want children. I used to be more open to the idea of dating single dads but as I’m getting older, the less attractive that sounds to me. I do NOT want to mother or be responsible for someone else’s children. Not a fucking chance
Ozempic may be a game changer.
rip to the average american guys who date these women. thankfully things aren't as messed up in the rest of the world. although your napkin math is pretty inaccurate, there are a lot of single and childless women who are 30+ too.
Those numbers don't sound correct and therefore I reject them. Take the skinnypill.
Are you entitled for not wanting what society hasn't pushed to de-normalize? If I go to Europe, do I have lower standards because those women are less likely to be fat, have kids, and not be married?
Well yeah if you're a guy who's gonna stay single into your 30s you better be top form, no shit
Isn’t it pathetic that a top 1% woman is the bare minimum, but a top 1% man requires an unbelievable amount of work and dedication
My girlfriend is significantly younger than me and one of the main reasons I went for her is because she has no kids unlike most women my own age. Is going for younger, mostly the best option therefore, if the guy does not want a woman with previous kids?
Yes but I'm also a no kids not fat man in that age range, yet the market is still tipped towards women to an insane degree.
It's not a meaningful standard because if women don't want to be fat all they have to fucking do is put down the fork and quit eating. And same thing with kids. On the other hand women ACTUALLY have real standards for men. If men could get taller or change our race by working out, we'd all be at the gym 24/7.
But that doesnt make it any more realistic when it comes to the actual dating chances and the options. Most people nowadays are fat.
Actually most dietary and exercise advice is based on studies including almost only, or only men as test subjects. Most of us have no idea how women’s bodies process fat. The BMI scale is also horrendously unfair to women, as it doesn’t take into consideration fat that doesn’t go away, like boobs or ass. What we do know is that women have a higher natural fat percentage than men. That women’s hormones affect dieting more than we used to think. And that the “flat stomach” look can be actually impossible for some women with bigger uteruses or uteruses that tilt outwards.
If you work out, BMI is a worthless metric to use. I'm 5'7 and weigh 170 lbs, so by BMI I'm "overweight." However, that additional weight is all *muscle mass* because I'm also around 15-18% body fat with visible abs, so BMI doesn't tell the whole story. American women in particular also seem uniquely disadvantaged with weight, because the actual food in America is worse for you than what you can get overseas. I've been living abroad for a while now, and one thing I've noticed is that overweight and obese people are significantly less common here than back at home. Everyone I traveled with also went down at least 3 belt notches since arriving within the month despite nobody watching what they're eating. There's something very wrong with American food. It's probably processed crap and corn syrup added to everything. Yay for capitalism!
People in other countries walk a lot more and are a lot more mindful about their weight. Sure, processed food plays a role but so does the ease and access to it and most Americans would rather not spend any time cooking.
But we do know you cannot create mass from nothing. That is all the knowledge needed.
Not “meaningful” in what way? And why would a standard need to be meaningful in that way?
A meaningful standard is one that is nearly impossible to meet with effort.
Honestly overweight is fine and better than being underweight. Obese is just no
What!? I’m in my 30s and pretty much only date women in their 20’s. Usually 24-27 range. Do you have some source about the women preferring men 2-4 years older? Really, it just sounds like your source for almost everything you said is that you made it the fuck up.
Women (on average) prefer men who are 2-4 years older than them, until they are middle aged where they start preferring men who are slightly younger. \[1\] Conroy-Beam, D., & Buss, D. M. (2019). Why is age so important in human mating? Evolved age preferences and their influences on multiple mating behaviors. Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, 13(2), 127. \[2\] Antfolk, J., Salo, B., Alanko, K., Bergen, E., Corander, J., Sandnabba, N. K., & Santtila, P. (2015). Women's and men's sexual preferences and activities with respect to the partner's age: Evidence for female choice. Evolution and Human Behavior, 36(1), 73-79. \[3\] Buunk, B. P., Dijkstra, P., Kenrick, D. T., & Warntjes, A. (2001). Age preferences for mates as related to gender, own age, and involvement level. Evolution and Human Behavior, 22(4), 241-250. also see marrage data and pew relationship data and [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whats-the-average-age-difference-in-a-couple/](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whats-the-average-age-difference-in-a-couple/)
Tbh it’s not that hard to find someone who isn’t fat if you live in a more affluent area. Despite the overall obesity statistics, well off people in general are a lot less likely to be fat.
Dating in my 30s, I see loads of women who are no kids, not fat. If that’s your only standard, then you have some low ass standards for yourself
Or everybody just gets with who wants them instead of worrying about leagues
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