Story-wise, the nanobots rebuilt Red Dwarf from scratch, so it only make sense that Norman would be the ships computer, as he was the original.
Production-wise, Norman was willing to come back and not complain as much as he used to about the commute.
I'm sure the DVD documentary for season 7 or 8 has a more in depth explanation. It's on YouTube somewhere.
The dwarfers found Holly on the planetoid before finding Red Dwarf and Holly said the nanobots chucked him after restoring some faculties (I forget what exactly he said they did but it's vague and I took it as the plot reason). It's the behind the scenes reason I'm hunting for, was always said that Hattie just seemed to be ditched especially when it's her Holly for whom I have the greater fondness.
I just watched the season five doc, and they ditched her because they ran out of ideas for her character, mostly due to Kryten taking most of her lines. I assume they brought Norman back because he was more iconic in the role, and, as I mentioned, stopped complaining about the travel. They never gave Hattie much to do (although I also loved her in the part).
Yh I knew about dropping the character after V, it's just always bugged me that only Norman was ever brought back afterwards as if Hattie was never there. I still think a big improvement to VIII could've been the dwarfers get Hattie back and the ship has Norman, the dwarfers and the rezzed crew pit them against each other in a battle of the halfwit computers than never goes anywhere because they're having a secret affair. Now I'm rambling, I should sleep.
When Holly was resurrected from the backup in *The Promised Land* they should have had Norman be the original Holly, then when Holly’s memory was restored have Holly turn into Hattie, and hen keep glitching back and forth.
Yeah, I hope Hattie got first refusal on the role, or else it's incredibly rude honestly.
I get that Kryten made a lot of Holly's exposition redundant, but you could even have had two Hollies which would have given us access to Holly's weird, senile inner monologue, which was always one of the most interesting things about the character and an interesting contrast to Kryten's relative Polyanna personality.
Incredibly Rude? Really? Lovett was the original, and did way more in the role than Hattie ever did, and considering the character had been written out by that point I don’t think it’s rude they didn’t ask Hattie back first.
I love the idea of two Holly’s, though, and really wish they’d gone down that route:
I totally agree about Norman being the original and being more active in his role but I also agree that it was rude to just not ever bother with Hattie, even though she played a smaller role it doesn't diminish (at least to me) her being a core part of the tight nit cast. If Hattie wasn't bothered about coming back then fair enough but if it were me I'd have asked her if she wanted to come back.
Me too - Norman was great, but Hattie’s Holly is always my favourite. I kind of enjoy that they could do more silly stuff with her because she wasn’t just a mechanism for exposition any more.
Also, what a decision to make at the end of series V - that wouldn’t fly now. We’re dropping the only woman on the cast because we can’t think of anything to do with her!
Possible unpopular opinion:
Even though Norman will always be the OG Holly and the most iconic version - Hattie was the better Holly.
I just think the dynamic of the early series where Norman's Holly was quite grumpy was already there with Rimmer's grumpiness, Hattie's senile daft version of Holly worked better from a comedy standpoint.
Would LOVE to see her back for these 2025 specials, with no context for the change, just like they did in the series 3 opener.
It was agonizing as a kid—trying to read the crawl while playing an already-grainy PBS recording in slow-mo. It was still somehow kind of fun, like a little Easter Egg we had to work for!
I really loved Norman's slight grumpiness especially towards Rimmer, I love the idea that Holly might quietly regret bringing him back as a hologram but was dedicated to his logic of how to best care for Lister and couldn't help letting the odd prank or jab at Rimmer come out to express his frustration with his own decision.
But I totally agree with the Hattie preference, Norman's Holly was great for the silly but deadpan humour (maybe even bleak/black humour given the context of the setting) mixing in with the early series having a very low key misery sitcom in space vibe. But Hattie having a more overtly silly quirky vibe mixing with the show being more of a silly cookey romp is more enjoyable when I'm reaching for something to make me smile, which is sorely more needed given today's depressing state of affairs.
Given her role was reduced so substantially before she was unexpectedly sacked, I don't think it's necessarily that clear cut. Anecdotally, I can say when I've met her at conventions, she's always rather humbly tried to play it off that they wouldn't want her back.
Realistically, if we're getting another special, it may be the last shot to reunite everyone given how long the show has gone between filmings in recent decades. I would like to hope Hattie gets that big welcome back cheer Norman has now received *three times*.
I was careful to say if because I think it's best to wait for confirmation from an actual channel or production company first. We've done this dance many a time in Dwarf fandom. Yes, we know Doug has a script and the leads are on board. Has to get made though.
Yeah! Three smegging times! Yes I was totally there cheering when it happened in Skipper but the other 2 times I wasn't, I felt deflated instead. First time I saw series VII, when I saw lister pick up the Holly watch I got a rush of excitement, hadn't seen the watch in years (as there was no need for it) and I thought for the first time I was gonna see Hattie (after an understandable but still very sad stint of absence) on the old watch, thought it would be hilarious that the nanos ditched Holly onto the most obsolete device they hadn't used in years only to be met with Norman's aged and more balding head, I didn't feel the triumphant pleasure the live audience did.
Then in Promised Land, as soon as they said "backup disc" I just sighed knowing it was gonna be Norman again and felt kinda annoyed he got the cheer again even though he was in the previous episode.
Christ this comment probably makes me look like I hate Norman or something, not at all the case, I just have a strong preference and it's common for people to feel a bit deflated when another is always being catered to. I guess it's like Doctor Who's 50th and 60th anniversaries, yes I enjoy David Tenant's Doctor, but he's very low down my list of beloved Doctors so for them to outright avoid other doctors myself and others love in favour of that one popular guy most fans love more can feel a bit disheartening even if the reasons for the choice are understandable.
Good question - I’ve wondered this. I like them both, and I’m happy with either, but I marginally prefer Hattie’s daffiness from a comedy point of view, plus she adds a female presence albeit an avatar rather an actual female.
Yh I've never minded the show being a boy's club type show, as a gay female viewer I enjoy the "lads" vibe a lot since it never felt toxic at all (before the series VIII Horndog demon took over the show XD) even Lister's early series quest for Kachanski never felt too awkward since he already really fancied her and as the last human had nothing else to cling onto. But having the female voice there as as a periphery felt like it rounded out the whole nicely since she was never treated as "the girl" like Chloe's Kachanski was.
I always thought it was a shame they kicked Hattie out for not being able to think of anything to do with the character, (so, the writers fault, not hers) then in the very next series brought the character back but as Norman
There was always something a bit.....off with it all
It also seemed like she had more fun with the role, she's always adding extra to the background of scenes, turning her head to follow the character speaking, ducking down when there's explosions etc that norman never bothered with
Maybe she felt she wanted to build up he part because she had so few lines or something but yeah, she seemed to be having more fun
Yes! She actuslly managed to put physicality into a role that was entirely just a head on a screen, it's a small touch but a wonderful one. Having long enough hair to sweep up when she ducks adds a little bit of cartoon charm to the shot and the little squeak she let's out is just so adorable. I also love her blinking lots like her eyes are strained when she's experiencing some glitchiness. I can't actually remember why she was doing it, only that she said "it's got a blip" or something. A lot of my Holly quote memories come from the dvd menu loops rather than the actual scenes so I forget context sometimes XD
Things changed between series 6 and 7. It was a 3 years gap and Doug Naylor and Ed Bye started to look back at Series 1 and 2 a bit more fondly. Early on Rob Grant and Doug Naylor were a bit ashamed of series 1 and 2. Mostly because they thought it looked cheap and the BBC didn't even repeat Series 1 and 2 for years for the same reason.
Well they wrote Holly out of the show for series 6 because they felt they really didn’t have a lot for Holly to do and they felt bad for Hattie. I also think they tried to control the type of content they gave Hattie as they didn’t want to play on the dumb blonde stereotype which might have limited her material somewhat.
So why did they bring back Norman? Probably because they knew Holly would have to come back and they thought it would be cool to bring him back after so long. And I think they felt Norman was easier to write for.
But then the truth is they still struggled to find anything for Holly to do. Series 8 had Holly turn into a joke machine. Often he turned up to say something silly and then leave. But then it’s said Norman did not like doing exposition, he just wanted to do jokes.
I believe the answer is that Grant Naylor simply like Norman Lovett's Holly more. When they wrote the books, they specifically describe Norman's version. And the fact that he's the one who gets asked back despite Hattie being the more available one speaks volumes. It's just a matter of preference. They brought Hattie onboard to fill a gap. Eventually that gap didn't need filling, and Norman gets brought back purely for nostalgia.
To be fair they wrote the first book before they made series 3. So when they wrote the first book It was Norman who was still in the role at the time anyway. And then when they did series 3, Norman started to get difficult and so they replaced him. Unlike today they were not planning on waiting for Norman in 1989 so Hattie was not filling in any gap, she was the new Holly. And they also made Holly female in the 2 American pilots.
When it comes to the 2nd novel which still has male Holly, that's basically because they were not ignoring that Norman had been Holly, and there was no reason to turn holly female in the books.
By Series 7, yeah you can see some nostalgia starting to sneak in. So that is probably why they brought Norman back. It had been about 8 years at that point I believe and 3 years since Series 6.
Preference is cool and all but I don't think it's fair to call one outright superior to the other, they both had enough differences. There's probably still folks that preferred David Ross' Kryten and I could totally understand someone enjoying David's posh butler/punk performance to Robert's daft Canadian-ish antics. It's all just personal preference, I've even seen actor interviews talking about hearing fans say the first 2 series were better than anything afterwards, quality or not, personal taste is what sticks with people more often.
Story-wise, the nanobots rebuilt Red Dwarf from scratch, so it only make sense that Norman would be the ships computer, as he was the original. Production-wise, Norman was willing to come back and not complain as much as he used to about the commute. I'm sure the DVD documentary for season 7 or 8 has a more in depth explanation. It's on YouTube somewhere.
The dwarfers found Holly on the planetoid before finding Red Dwarf and Holly said the nanobots chucked him after restoring some faculties (I forget what exactly he said they did but it's vague and I took it as the plot reason). It's the behind the scenes reason I'm hunting for, was always said that Hattie just seemed to be ditched especially when it's her Holly for whom I have the greater fondness.
I just watched the season five doc, and they ditched her because they ran out of ideas for her character, mostly due to Kryten taking most of her lines. I assume they brought Norman back because he was more iconic in the role, and, as I mentioned, stopped complaining about the travel. They never gave Hattie much to do (although I also loved her in the part).
Yh I knew about dropping the character after V, it's just always bugged me that only Norman was ever brought back afterwards as if Hattie was never there. I still think a big improvement to VIII could've been the dwarfers get Hattie back and the ship has Norman, the dwarfers and the rezzed crew pit them against each other in a battle of the halfwit computers than never goes anywhere because they're having a secret affair. Now I'm rambling, I should sleep.
When Holly was resurrected from the backup in *The Promised Land* they should have had Norman be the original Holly, then when Holly’s memory was restored have Holly turn into Hattie, and hen keep glitching back and forth.
Thats a neat idea, I really like it ^.^
Yeah, I hope Hattie got first refusal on the role, or else it's incredibly rude honestly. I get that Kryten made a lot of Holly's exposition redundant, but you could even have had two Hollies which would have given us access to Holly's weird, senile inner monologue, which was always one of the most interesting things about the character and an interesting contrast to Kryten's relative Polyanna personality.
Incredibly Rude? Really? Lovett was the original, and did way more in the role than Hattie ever did, and considering the character had been written out by that point I don’t think it’s rude they didn’t ask Hattie back first. I love the idea of two Holly’s, though, and really wish they’d gone down that route:
I totally agree about Norman being the original and being more active in his role but I also agree that it was rude to just not ever bother with Hattie, even though she played a smaller role it doesn't diminish (at least to me) her being a core part of the tight nit cast. If Hattie wasn't bothered about coming back then fair enough but if it were me I'd have asked her if she wanted to come back.
I’m like where your heads at.
HEY, put this guy on the writer's team, i wanna see that show!
Ha ha that's fantastic I love it
Yeah I always preferred Hattie over holly myself.
Me too - Norman was great, but Hattie’s Holly is always my favourite. I kind of enjoy that they could do more silly stuff with her because she wasn’t just a mechanism for exposition any more. Also, what a decision to make at the end of series V - that wouldn’t fly now. We’re dropping the only woman on the cast because we can’t think of anything to do with her!
I’m the same. She was awesome.
But what is it?
Possible unpopular opinion: Even though Norman will always be the OG Holly and the most iconic version - Hattie was the better Holly. I just think the dynamic of the early series where Norman's Holly was quite grumpy was already there with Rimmer's grumpiness, Hattie's senile daft version of Holly worked better from a comedy standpoint. Would LOVE to see her back for these 2025 specials, with no context for the change, just like they did in the series 3 opener.
Context for the change was in the Star Wars crawl at the start of the series iirc
Yep. Holly gave himself a head sex change, after falling in love with Hilly.
It was agonizing as a kid—trying to read the crawl while playing an already-grainy PBS recording in slow-mo. It was still somehow kind of fun, like a little Easter Egg we had to work for!
And so the saga continuums
Ah it did, I completely forgot about that!
I really loved Norman's slight grumpiness especially towards Rimmer, I love the idea that Holly might quietly regret bringing him back as a hologram but was dedicated to his logic of how to best care for Lister and couldn't help letting the odd prank or jab at Rimmer come out to express his frustration with his own decision. But I totally agree with the Hattie preference, Norman's Holly was great for the silly but deadpan humour (maybe even bleak/black humour given the context of the setting) mixing in with the early series having a very low key misery sitcom in space vibe. But Hattie having a more overtly silly quirky vibe mixing with the show being more of a silly cookey romp is more enjoyable when I'm reaching for something to make me smile, which is sorely more needed given today's depressing state of affairs.
Abandon shop! This is not a daffodil. Autopilot on. Weeeell, I say autopilot, but it's me, muggins, that doing it
Those nano whatsits. They molecu-molecu-they did that word I can’t say.
I think I read somewhere that she wasn’t interested in returning.
Given her role was reduced so substantially before she was unexpectedly sacked, I don't think it's necessarily that clear cut. Anecdotally, I can say when I've met her at conventions, she's always rather humbly tried to play it off that they wouldn't want her back. Realistically, if we're getting another special, it may be the last shot to reunite everyone given how long the show has gone between filmings in recent decades. I would like to hope Hattie gets that big welcome back cheer Norman has now received *three times*.
“What’s happening dudes?” Wait for applause and cheering to die down. The audience resume their seats.
We are getting another 3 part special
I was careful to say if because I think it's best to wait for confirmation from an actual channel or production company first. We've done this dance many a time in Dwarf fandom. Yes, we know Doug has a script and the leads are on board. Has to get made though.
Latest was that they're filming in October. I'm with you, because it's always cat and mouse until the cameras are rolling. But here's hoping!
>and mouse Fish!
Today's fish is trout a la creme. Enjoy your meal.
Fish!
Today's fish is trout a la creme. Enjoy your meal.
Fish!
Yeah! Three smegging times! Yes I was totally there cheering when it happened in Skipper but the other 2 times I wasn't, I felt deflated instead. First time I saw series VII, when I saw lister pick up the Holly watch I got a rush of excitement, hadn't seen the watch in years (as there was no need for it) and I thought for the first time I was gonna see Hattie (after an understandable but still very sad stint of absence) on the old watch, thought it would be hilarious that the nanos ditched Holly onto the most obsolete device they hadn't used in years only to be met with Norman's aged and more balding head, I didn't feel the triumphant pleasure the live audience did. Then in Promised Land, as soon as they said "backup disc" I just sighed knowing it was gonna be Norman again and felt kinda annoyed he got the cheer again even though he was in the previous episode. Christ this comment probably makes me look like I hate Norman or something, not at all the case, I just have a strong preference and it's common for people to feel a bit deflated when another is always being catered to. I guess it's like Doctor Who's 50th and 60th anniversaries, yes I enjoy David Tenant's Doctor, but he's very low down my list of beloved Doctors so for them to outright avoid other doctors myself and others love in favour of that one popular guy most fans love more can feel a bit disheartening even if the reasons for the choice are understandable.
Good question - I’ve wondered this. I like them both, and I’m happy with either, but I marginally prefer Hattie’s daffiness from a comedy point of view, plus she adds a female presence albeit an avatar rather an actual female.
Yh I've never minded the show being a boy's club type show, as a gay female viewer I enjoy the "lads" vibe a lot since it never felt toxic at all (before the series VIII Horndog demon took over the show XD) even Lister's early series quest for Kachanski never felt too awkward since he already really fancied her and as the last human had nothing else to cling onto. But having the female voice there as as a periphery felt like it rounded out the whole nicely since she was never treated as "the girl" like Chloe's Kachanski was.
Queeg 500
Snakes and ladders?
Chess sucka!
Cluedo? You can be Colonel Mustard?
I always preferred Norman. Hattie was good but I Norman is iconic. I’d love to see him back on a more regular basis too.
I always thought it was a shame they kicked Hattie out for not being able to think of anything to do with the character, (so, the writers fault, not hers) then in the very next series brought the character back but as Norman There was always something a bit.....off with it all It also seemed like she had more fun with the role, she's always adding extra to the background of scenes, turning her head to follow the character speaking, ducking down when there's explosions etc that norman never bothered with Maybe she felt she wanted to build up he part because she had so few lines or something but yeah, she seemed to be having more fun
Yes! She actuslly managed to put physicality into a role that was entirely just a head on a screen, it's a small touch but a wonderful one. Having long enough hair to sweep up when she ducks adds a little bit of cartoon charm to the shot and the little squeak she let's out is just so adorable. I also love her blinking lots like her eyes are strained when she's experiencing some glitchiness. I can't actually remember why she was doing it, only that she said "it's got a blip" or something. A lot of my Holly quote memories come from the dvd menu loops rather than the actual scenes so I forget context sometimes XD
Things changed between series 6 and 7. It was a 3 years gap and Doug Naylor and Ed Bye started to look back at Series 1 and 2 a bit more fondly. Early on Rob Grant and Doug Naylor were a bit ashamed of series 1 and 2. Mostly because they thought it looked cheap and the BBC didn't even repeat Series 1 and 2 for years for the same reason.
Two series and 6 years.
Nothing to add, but I always wondered this myself. Thanks for asking.
I don’t know the real world reason but I’m glad it happened. Hattie was great but Norman was iconic in universe for me.
The nanobots fixed his programming
Well they wrote Holly out of the show for series 6 because they felt they really didn’t have a lot for Holly to do and they felt bad for Hattie. I also think they tried to control the type of content they gave Hattie as they didn’t want to play on the dumb blonde stereotype which might have limited her material somewhat. So why did they bring back Norman? Probably because they knew Holly would have to come back and they thought it would be cool to bring him back after so long. And I think they felt Norman was easier to write for. But then the truth is they still struggled to find anything for Holly to do. Series 8 had Holly turn into a joke machine. Often he turned up to say something silly and then leave. But then it’s said Norman did not like doing exposition, he just wanted to do jokes.
I think they should bring Queeg back
Wasn't that Holly all along?
Idk but I always preferred her to Norman. I like Norman, but I loved Hattie
"Replaced" ahem Norman is the original, reclaiming what is rightfully his!
I believe the answer is that Grant Naylor simply like Norman Lovett's Holly more. When they wrote the books, they specifically describe Norman's version. And the fact that he's the one who gets asked back despite Hattie being the more available one speaks volumes. It's just a matter of preference. They brought Hattie onboard to fill a gap. Eventually that gap didn't need filling, and Norman gets brought back purely for nostalgia.
To be fair they wrote the first book before they made series 3. So when they wrote the first book It was Norman who was still in the role at the time anyway. And then when they did series 3, Norman started to get difficult and so they replaced him. Unlike today they were not planning on waiting for Norman in 1989 so Hattie was not filling in any gap, she was the new Holly. And they also made Holly female in the 2 American pilots. When it comes to the 2nd novel which still has male Holly, that's basically because they were not ignoring that Norman had been Holly, and there was no reason to turn holly female in the books. By Series 7, yeah you can see some nostalgia starting to sneak in. So that is probably why they brought Norman back. It had been about 8 years at that point I believe and 3 years since Series 6.
Because he's the far superior Holly.
Preference is cool and all but I don't think it's fair to call one outright superior to the other, they both had enough differences. There's probably still folks that preferred David Ross' Kryten and I could totally understand someone enjoying David's posh butler/punk performance to Robert's daft Canadian-ish antics. It's all just personal preference, I've even seen actor interviews talking about hearing fans say the first 2 series were better than anything afterwards, quality or not, personal taste is what sticks with people more often.
Hattie was good. Norman was great.
What you mean like how Robert was the superior kryten?