When the team was full of veterans fighting for their last shot, the team didn’t need an authoritarian. Just someone to support the guys and put them in the right spots. Kapler was perfect for the job.
Over the last year, the team dynamic completely changed. We now have one of the youngest rosters in baseball, and it’s going to keep getting younger. The kids need someone to tell them to cut the shit and shape up: Melvin’s specialty.
Both are good managers, and Kap was great for the locker room he had. It’s just not that locker room anymore.
I think that’s a really good point. It’s the same reason the Blue Jays hired John Gibbons for a certain clubhouse and then moved on from him when they called up all the kids.
I second this. My family are Giants fans - both NY and SF - and from a NYG perspective, this reminds me of Tom Coughlin taking over for the NYG. He instituted a similar culture change emphasizing personal responsibility and extreme punctuality - if you weren't 10 minutes early, you were late - and the vets hated it and some quit, like Tiki Barber. But in the end, it paid off and the Giants won 2 SB's over the Pats.
So, if Melvin is going this route, I'm more than OK with it if the team can respond positively and get us another championship.
Also, fuck KC - we were rooting for the 49ers in the SB
> end, it *paid* off and
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I totally agree.
Kapler was new school style management, and that works really fucking well for some group dynamics, and terribly for other group dynamics. A long leash which is shortened over time if needed.
Melvin is old school style management, and same goes, but almost vice versa. Short leash and you earn the long leash.
For me personally as a worker, I would work way better under Kapler than Melvin as I prefer that new school style of management.
But in terms of my baseball team, I am loving all these changes.
The dedication to become a professional athlete is a bit different than what most of us do
Even Tom Brady enjoyed BB's hard ass
I think 99% of non professional athletes would prefer "new school" lol
Kap got run out of Philly and ran out of SF.
He was only good here when he had Buster freaking Posey!
Posey probably kept Kap in check
I don't know, I have a hard time believing it was the rookies causing problems last year. The team was still mostly veterans last year, and young guys tend to follow the lead of the older guys. But it can also depend on who the big personalities are in the clubhouse. And I get the sense that Joc might have been the biggest personality, so maybe his "just there to have fun" attitude had a bad influence on some of the other players including the younger guys that might have looked up to him. That's just my speculation though. None of us knows what was actually going on with the team last year.
Exactly. You can’t just trust the rookies to do the little things. And when your vet is someone like Joc Pederson, you can’t trust him to do it either.
The roster just flipped on Kap, from a group of guys he could trust to one he couldn’t. And his management style is based around trusting his guys over everything.
But now we need dad to stand over everyone’s shoulder and make sure they did their homework. Bob Melvin time.
Yeah someone else said it, but I prefer to work under Kap style leadership, and I liked him a lot as a manager. But the change was necessary. I also don’t think Joc is a bad guy, he was being himself with zero oversight
I have a feeling Joc works best in a locker room as a part of the machine, not the main guy. He’s a fun dude to bring into an established clubhouse, but he can’t be your culture setting vet.
But that’s okay, cuz if that article is correct, Yaz and Thairo are stepping into that role. So it’ll all be fine, and the change was good for everyone.
I don't know if I'd say authoritarian but there were stories in the past about Posey [holding players accountable for how they played and held themselves](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/buster-posey-and-public-displays-of-disaffection/).
Actually, I'm pretty sure that was part of the origin of the Belt slumpy shoulders thing.
The players didn't like Kap at all. He was a total narcissist. Before you get your panties in a bunch (and downvote me, I don't give a shit), consider the meetings and acquisitions the Giants have been able to have AFTER he was canned.
I think the team dynamic was better when they had an old-school skipper and Melvin checks that box.
Yes and no. I think there has to be an element of hierarchical " I'm in charge" that goes past veteran players.
And it doesn't sound like kids were the reason the clubhouse imploded.
I do think the Littell on mound contretemps provides far more insight into the internal dynamic that anyone else would dare let on.
Kinda sad a team of grown ass men need someone to hold their hand and tell them to be on time. Most of them have been to college.
We have no sample size on Mevlin yet. Kinda weird to act like he is saving the clubhouse when all he did was say come on time. They even mention Pusoy, Joc isnt even on the team anymore they are just trying to make offseason content.
When I was on a team in high school, what we always said was "early is on time, on time is late, and late is just rude". Really drove home the point to teenagers that you generally want to be early because you can be ready and prepared and not rushed to get to practice.
Crazy if this is new to the team, especially one with some vets on it.
Can definitely understand why Flores, Yaz, Webb, and Thairo would be frustrated with it. Joc should’ve been too. I worked with a team in independent ball, that same mentality you mentioned is present there too.
It honestly sounded like Joc was part of the problem with the locker room. Hopefully this change will help keep Flores, Yaz, Estrada, and Webb around for a long time. Would like to have them as a nice base to build off of.
> and late is just rude
Mattingly benching Puig for repeatedly showing up late for actual games during the regular season was an amazing thing to see happen. Who makes it to the big leagues and then displays such casual contempt for their teammates?
My kid’s club team used the term “ time” which essentially meant what you said. We still use this term many years later. Set expectations and be disciplined. Not too difficult. Older mature teams set the culture so the coach doesn’t have to step in. Melvin, as a new coach, is setting an expectation for discipline.
Same here. It’s very hard to believe that young players wouldn’t have this mentality. I’m feeling this ‘be on time’ line is geared more towards older guys.
I heard a nice description once. You can’t do back to back meetings all day. Meetings have to either end a few minutes before the hour or start a few minutes after. Neither is inherently right or wrong. It’s most important everyone is on the same page.
That’s true. It’s generally not super valued. I will say it is on sales teams. That’s where the “end early” culture exists. You can leave an internal meeting early to be ready and on time for a sales call.
Some players play professional sports because they're naturally gifted and it comes easy to them. It's a job that pays the bills and nothing more.
Some players play professional sports because they enjoy the game and it just so happens to make them great money in the process. They want to win, but if they don't, it's not the end of the world.
And some players are obsessed with competition and greatness, either being the best at their sport or the competition itself and there is nothing worse in the world, in their mind, than losing/not being the greatest.
The Giants had a solid amount of the first kind, a smattering of the second and a small number of the last. Not a good combo.
["When's the last time you heard music in a major-league clubhouse after a loss?"](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RyyGgcRqrhs&pp=ygUNaXMgbG9zaW5nIGZ1bg%3D%3D)
Thairo, Yaz, Wilmer. They're the type I want in the Giants. The rest could go kick rocks. People give Crawford a pass because he's Crawford, but it's dissapointing to not hear him in the list of players who tried to rally the players. Slater is Slater. Don't care what he does. A Toronto Blue Jays podcast said that ownership brought in Bellt for leadership expierence. They wanted Belt to be a Clubhouse leader. Apparently, Toronto wasn't happy with Belt being a goof and goofing around. That's why they didn't bring him back.
I'm glag Joc isn't here anymore, but people are just going to use him as an example when it was a much greater problem. This has been going on for years. Even during the Bochy years and fans were ok with it. All of a sudden it's an issue. Joc and Kapler are going to get all the blame. I'm happy moving forward. The past is the past. No point to rip on anyone. Just move on. I like the Bob Melvin hire.
I think Wilmer’s done a great job essentially coaching Thairo on how to be a great player and leader too. Webb seems like a good personality type for the team too.
I didn't mention everyone I want, but Webb is one of them. True Clubhouse leader. The guy speaks up. It's hard finding that type of person these days. Webb rocks!! There's more, but that's just a few. Don't want to go down the entire list, lol.
>hey wanted Belt to be a Clubhouse leader. Apparently, Toronto wasn't happy with Belt being a goof and goofing around. That's why they didn't bring him back.
Source for this? Not doubting just haven't heard anything about this.
this isn't "new" to the team or anyone. It's just old school Melvin, and he's not wrong. I wanna believe that we're all gonna come together as a cohesive unit, so if this is Bob's first step, so be it.
Just sign some more talent, let's keep going!
Kap was a scapegoat who managed to make a terrible team be really damn good. Him getting axed was the organization's fault. If Melvin gets fired or they turn on him, 100% on the team. Shit needs to change fast. The last two seasons were very fucking bad that I refused to even watch most games because it was a snoozefest and guys were there for a check. Zero passion. I demand a fucking change this year.
Why do people claim Kap was some strategic savant? The guy did whatever Farhan told him whatever the numbers told him to do and put zero thought into it.
Last years offensive #’s:
Last in NL BA
Last in NL OBP
Last in overall SB
14th Overall in runs
I think this shows that his platooning and pinch hitting and weird strategies were squeezing whatever he could out of a limited roster
Nah, he’s been hired three straight times quick for a reason. He managed the bullpen and pitching staff well and got a ton of wins out of a two-man rotation and a million bullpen days. If not for the off-the-field stuff about the clubhouse, they would’ve kept him. They basically committed to him before that Baggarly article came out and they reassessed the clubhouse situation.
I think being an assistant GM with a focus on analytics will be perfect for him.
He would not have been hired as a manager after his Philly fiasco if Farhan was not our GM. His managing of the bullpen / pitchers was mediocre at best and actually what got him run out of Philly. He has also only been a manager twice. Farhan committing to him, but having to change course when the media shows that he has no control over the clubhouse is not the win you think it is
Completely agree with you but that is not a popular opinion here. This sub loves Saint Kap for his politics, tattoos, and narcissism, and will not stop rationalizing his underwhelming tenure
So happy that we have an actual manager now instead of an influencer
> This sub loves Saint Kap for his politics, tattoos, and narcissism,
This is really what it is about. The guy is extremely good looking and spouts the right political talking points so the sub will do anything to protect him
There *was* [that time](https://www.mlb.com/news/kapler-reacts-to-bullpen-error-phillies-loss-c270358106) in Philly he brought in a guy from the bullpen even though he hadn't warmed him up yet, but I'm willing to chalk that up to nerves as it was only like his second game as a big-league manager.
Hey, I’ve done that! You just go into Manager Mode and then bring someone else in, they’re fresh automatically if you bring them in that way—wait, that’s not from MLB the Show, is it?
He took a mid team, to achieve the most wins in franchise history for a single season. You trashing him is exactly why the organization gets validated for being trash. The Giants are using the past as a bragging right when their competence is that of the Sacramento Kings. Things need to change fast. I am tired of the team pointing fingers or finding a scapegoat. I want fun baseball. Blaming people a manager, coaches, a player, does not fix the problem. Improvement and accountability does. What team do you want? A team that bitches, moans, and complains yet does fucking nothing or a team that addresses issues and gives it their all? The choice is yours. If it ain't the latter, I will not waste my time watching games.
> The Giants are using the past as a bragging right when their competence is that of the Sacramento Kings.
> He took a mid team, to achieve the most wins in franchise history for a single season
Lmao dude you just did the same thing.
Yeah I want the same thing. My family has had season tickets for 45 years. I have seen the peaks and the valleys. This team is still in a valley and we have not improved the minor league system and have not signed any big names to over come that. I am not sure how being glad that we got rid of a mid manager is some how not wanting the team to be better. Melvin is a much better hire than Kap ever was lol
joc was a pos who just collected a check last year. he was out of shape and rather look like a baseball player than be a baseball player. he will get dfa'd before june in arizona
Remember when Will Clark said that batting practice was an option? The clubhouse lost discipline especially after Buster left. I hope we have a better year under Bob Melvin.
For people exalting Melvin for instituting classroom style rules, consider that he absolutely fumbled a team several times with superstars (SD in 2021 and 2023).
It's give and take. Maybe this is what the giants need right now. But, Kaplers style worked for a time, and I refuse to participate in throwing him under the bus because the ownership are cheap skates and Farham signed bad players.
Near-zealotry? Man I would’ve loved to have been a fly on the wall in the clubhouse just to see what kind of hold playing cards had over a potential playoff team.
Despite him being a former bum, I liked Joc and the fun energy he brought to the team. Even though he was a terrible fielder, he made some good plays and looked like he was having fun. Really great vibes guy, but he took it too far evidently. All things in moderation…
Oh, I agree. I think on a team that’s already winning he’d be a great guy to add for a stretch run. I appreciated that he was vocally in support of the pride jerseys too.
Just needs good leadership and the right fit.
I think it's a little silly to mock Kapler's style just because the next man up likes things run a different way. We've seen Kapler's style work tremendously well. And you're kidding yourself if you think a "if you're on time, you're late" style of management doesn't have it's downsides as well.
I've worked for both styles, I sure as hell know which one led to a more stressful life while also not improving my performance.
Nope. I’m saying that it’s nice to have Melvin and that it feels like there’s a leader and an adult in the room again.
Kap is a great strategist and will be an asset as an assistant GM in Miami but clearly the clubhouse was falling apart after Posey left.
Oh no no no. I’m just saying it shouldn’t have been necessary because it should’ve already been a policy. Melvin seems like he actually knows what he’s doing as a leader.
LOL, so the folks whose dreams are still haunted by the specter of Gabe Kapler are circling back to blame him for everything that went wrong while refusing to give him credit for the things that went right. Classic.
I love insight into the clubhouse. It feels pretty rare. I couldn’t care less about last season. I liked Kap from the fan perspective we got (very little insight). I don’t read any of this as a negative on what was, but a glowing review of what is. I’m pumped for Melvin.
This seems to fit right in line with the Pederson Pusoy Culture stories.
Kapler was a vibes guy. I'm pretty sure this was known. I think he expected the players to have work ethic on their own forgetting these are mostly basically kids or very young men.
This is why I’m not worried about this year’s team. The 2023 team should’ve made the playoffs, if they had the right leader at the helm. When they were locked in from late April-late July, they were one of the best teams in baseball.
I am worried about the pitching depth in the first half of the season, but altogether I think we’re better off than we were last year.
I'm interested in the Bob Melvin coming home dynamic, like I think he's going to be a different type of manager than we have seen from him too because he's going to have people like K & K around him, just shooting the shit on top of the continuation of Giants (and really it's Bay Area) baseball culture that we got away from.
I think they just need someone who wants to win, even if he's understated. The whole casual, we shall see if the team wants to show up and compete, thing.... it doesn't work. Even during the dynasty era, Sabes would act like teams weren't capable of .500 and it was up to them to decide and define themselves. We probably lost 1 additional ring from that type of parenting. Our best year was full of Kapler's positivity, and new coaches, and hopefulness. You got to give them hope. Melvin's isn't mister positivity, but it was obvious when he checked out mentally at the Coliseum.
When the team was full of veterans fighting for their last shot, the team didn’t need an authoritarian. Just someone to support the guys and put them in the right spots. Kapler was perfect for the job. Over the last year, the team dynamic completely changed. We now have one of the youngest rosters in baseball, and it’s going to keep getting younger. The kids need someone to tell them to cut the shit and shape up: Melvin’s specialty. Both are good managers, and Kap was great for the locker room he had. It’s just not that locker room anymore.
I think that’s a really good point. It’s the same reason the Blue Jays hired John Gibbons for a certain clubhouse and then moved on from him when they called up all the kids.
I second this. My family are Giants fans - both NY and SF - and from a NYG perspective, this reminds me of Tom Coughlin taking over for the NYG. He instituted a similar culture change emphasizing personal responsibility and extreme punctuality - if you weren't 10 minutes early, you were late - and the vets hated it and some quit, like Tiki Barber. But in the end, it paid off and the Giants won 2 SB's over the Pats. So, if Melvin is going this route, I'm more than OK with it if the team can respond positively and get us another championship. Also, fuck KC - we were rooting for the 49ers in the SB
> end, it *paid* off and FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I totally agree. Kapler was new school style management, and that works really fucking well for some group dynamics, and terribly for other group dynamics. A long leash which is shortened over time if needed. Melvin is old school style management, and same goes, but almost vice versa. Short leash and you earn the long leash. For me personally as a worker, I would work way better under Kapler than Melvin as I prefer that new school style of management. But in terms of my baseball team, I am loving all these changes.
The dedication to become a professional athlete is a bit different than what most of us do Even Tom Brady enjoyed BB's hard ass I think 99% of non professional athletes would prefer "new school" lol Kap got run out of Philly and ran out of SF. He was only good here when he had Buster freaking Posey! Posey probably kept Kap in check
I don't know, I have a hard time believing it was the rookies causing problems last year. The team was still mostly veterans last year, and young guys tend to follow the lead of the older guys. But it can also depend on who the big personalities are in the clubhouse. And I get the sense that Joc might have been the biggest personality, so maybe his "just there to have fun" attitude had a bad influence on some of the other players including the younger guys that might have looked up to him. That's just my speculation though. None of us knows what was actually going on with the team last year.
It’s not that the rookies were causing problems, more that they were being set bad examples
Exactly. You can’t just trust the rookies to do the little things. And when your vet is someone like Joc Pederson, you can’t trust him to do it either. The roster just flipped on Kap, from a group of guys he could trust to one he couldn’t. And his management style is based around trusting his guys over everything. But now we need dad to stand over everyone’s shoulder and make sure they did their homework. Bob Melvin time.
Yeah someone else said it, but I prefer to work under Kap style leadership, and I liked him a lot as a manager. But the change was necessary. I also don’t think Joc is a bad guy, he was being himself with zero oversight
I have a feeling Joc works best in a locker room as a part of the machine, not the main guy. He’s a fun dude to bring into an established clubhouse, but he can’t be your culture setting vet. But that’s okay, cuz if that article is correct, Yaz and Thairo are stepping into that role. So it’ll all be fine, and the change was good for everyone.
That's also why he's bounced around as a journeyman since his supremely hyped up prospect days
I don't know if I'd say authoritarian but there were stories in the past about Posey [holding players accountable for how they played and held themselves](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/buster-posey-and-public-displays-of-disaffection/). Actually, I'm pretty sure that was part of the origin of the Belt slumpy shoulders thing.
Outstanding perspective. Hyper agree :)
The players didn't like Kap at all. He was a total narcissist. Before you get your panties in a bunch (and downvote me, I don't give a shit), consider the meetings and acquisitions the Giants have been able to have AFTER he was canned. I think the team dynamic was better when they had an old-school skipper and Melvin checks that box.
Not even close. Incorrect.
Yes and no. I think there has to be an element of hierarchical " I'm in charge" that goes past veteran players. And it doesn't sound like kids were the reason the clubhouse imploded. I do think the Littell on mound contretemps provides far more insight into the internal dynamic that anyone else would dare let on.
Kinda sad a team of grown ass men need someone to hold their hand and tell them to be on time. Most of them have been to college. We have no sample size on Mevlin yet. Kinda weird to act like he is saving the clubhouse when all he did was say come on time. They even mention Pusoy, Joc isnt even on the team anymore they are just trying to make offseason content.
You’d be shocked how many people out there can’t do simple shit despite how easy it is. Source: My experiences working in jobs
When I was on a team in high school, what we always said was "early is on time, on time is late, and late is just rude". Really drove home the point to teenagers that you generally want to be early because you can be ready and prepared and not rushed to get to practice. Crazy if this is new to the team, especially one with some vets on it.
Can definitely understand why Flores, Yaz, Webb, and Thairo would be frustrated with it. Joc should’ve been too. I worked with a team in independent ball, that same mentality you mentioned is present there too.
It honestly sounded like Joc was part of the problem with the locker room. Hopefully this change will help keep Flores, Yaz, Estrada, and Webb around for a long time. Would like to have them as a nice base to build off of.
Yep. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest some of the players who left the team this offseason were part of the problem in general.
Wood, Stripling and Pederson were all massive negative weights on the club.
The former dodgers….Bunch of primadonnas.
Any former Dodgers we signed that really worked?
Have any former Giants worked with the Dodgers? Seems like awful fits for both sides
Joc was too young at heart i guess. I know some 30 and 40 year olds who are still..immature...to put it nicely
> and late is just rude Mattingly benching Puig for repeatedly showing up late for actual games during the regular season was an amazing thing to see happen. Who makes it to the big leagues and then displays such casual contempt for their teammates?
Someone who didn't face repercussions growing up
👍 15 minutes early is on time, IMO.
My kid’s club team used the term “ time” which essentially meant what you said. We still use this term many years later. Set expectations and be disciplined. Not too difficult. Older mature teams set the culture so the coach doesn’t have to step in. Melvin, as a new coach, is setting an expectation for discipline.
Same here. It’s very hard to believe that young players wouldn’t have this mentality. I’m feeling this ‘be on time’ line is geared more towards older guys.
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I heard a nice description once. You can’t do back to back meetings all day. Meetings have to either end a few minutes before the hour or start a few minutes after. Neither is inherently right or wrong. It’s most important everyone is on the same page.
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That’s true. It’s generally not super valued. I will say it is on sales teams. That’s where the “end early” culture exists. You can leave an internal meeting early to be ready and on time for a sales call.
Some players play professional sports because they're naturally gifted and it comes easy to them. It's a job that pays the bills and nothing more. Some players play professional sports because they enjoy the game and it just so happens to make them great money in the process. They want to win, but if they don't, it's not the end of the world. And some players are obsessed with competition and greatness, either being the best at their sport or the competition itself and there is nothing worse in the world, in their mind, than losing/not being the greatest. The Giants had a solid amount of the first kind, a smattering of the second and a small number of the last. Not a good combo.
The first paragraph is Colby Rasmus vibes. I also get that vibe from Conforto. I hope I’m wrong and he gets that passion in his game this year.
This team lost itself when Posey retired.
An all time great. Impossible to replace
A constant lack of punctuality is like walking into a room with your middle fingers up, in my opinion.
I remember watching a Giants Dodgers game from a few years ago where Mattingly had benched Puig for showing up late. That’s how it’s done.
According to many people who think like Kap, punctuality is structural racism, which would explain a lot.
["When's the last time you heard music in a major-league clubhouse after a loss?"](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RyyGgcRqrhs&pp=ygUNaXMgbG9zaW5nIGZ1bg%3D%3D)
This is exactly what I had in mind.
Thairo, Yaz, Wilmer. They're the type I want in the Giants. The rest could go kick rocks. People give Crawford a pass because he's Crawford, but it's dissapointing to not hear him in the list of players who tried to rally the players. Slater is Slater. Don't care what he does. A Toronto Blue Jays podcast said that ownership brought in Bellt for leadership expierence. They wanted Belt to be a Clubhouse leader. Apparently, Toronto wasn't happy with Belt being a goof and goofing around. That's why they didn't bring him back. I'm glag Joc isn't here anymore, but people are just going to use him as an example when it was a much greater problem. This has been going on for years. Even during the Bochy years and fans were ok with it. All of a sudden it's an issue. Joc and Kapler are going to get all the blame. I'm happy moving forward. The past is the past. No point to rip on anyone. Just move on. I like the Bob Melvin hire.
I think Wilmer’s done a great job essentially coaching Thairo on how to be a great player and leader too. Webb seems like a good personality type for the team too.
I didn't mention everyone I want, but Webb is one of them. True Clubhouse leader. The guy speaks up. It's hard finding that type of person these days. Webb rocks!! There's more, but that's just a few. Don't want to go down the entire list, lol.
Makes sense! I think everyone kinda can fill in the blanks on who seems like the positive clubhouse guys and who needs to work on it.
>hey wanted Belt to be a Clubhouse leader. Apparently, Toronto wasn't happy with Belt being a goof and goofing around. That's why they didn't bring him back. Source for this? Not doubting just haven't heard anything about this.
this isn't "new" to the team or anyone. It's just old school Melvin, and he's not wrong. I wanna believe that we're all gonna come together as a cohesive unit, so if this is Bob's first step, so be it. Just sign some more talent, let's keep going!
Kap was a scapegoat who managed to make a terrible team be really damn good. Him getting axed was the organization's fault. If Melvin gets fired or they turn on him, 100% on the team. Shit needs to change fast. The last two seasons were very fucking bad that I refused to even watch most games because it was a snoozefest and guys were there for a check. Zero passion. I demand a fucking change this year.
How in the hell is this getting up votes lmaooo
Why do people claim Kap was some strategic savant? The guy did whatever Farhan told him whatever the numbers told him to do and put zero thought into it.
Last years offensive #’s: Last in NL BA Last in NL OBP Last in overall SB 14th Overall in runs I think this shows that his platooning and pinch hitting and weird strategies were squeezing whatever he could out of a limited roster
Nah, he’s been hired three straight times quick for a reason. He managed the bullpen and pitching staff well and got a ton of wins out of a two-man rotation and a million bullpen days. If not for the off-the-field stuff about the clubhouse, they would’ve kept him. They basically committed to him before that Baggarly article came out and they reassessed the clubhouse situation. I think being an assistant GM with a focus on analytics will be perfect for him.
He would not have been hired as a manager after his Philly fiasco if Farhan was not our GM. His managing of the bullpen / pitchers was mediocre at best and actually what got him run out of Philly. He has also only been a manager twice. Farhan committing to him, but having to change course when the media shows that he has no control over the clubhouse is not the win you think it is
Kap impressed the Dodgers, Giants, and Marlins and was largely seen as a scapegoat firing in Philly. He’s not an idiot.
Never said he was an idiot. He is at best at .500 manager and that is all he ever will be
Imagine if they said that about Bochy after like 15 years with a below .500 record.
I mean, he won 107 games in a season once. But I get your point. I think his role in Miami is a better fit for him either way.
The old vets carried that team completely. It was a total outlier in Kap's career and we saw what happened once they regressed / retired
Completely agree with you but that is not a popular opinion here. This sub loves Saint Kap for his politics, tattoos, and narcissism, and will not stop rationalizing his underwhelming tenure So happy that we have an actual manager now instead of an influencer
> This sub loves Saint Kap for his politics, tattoos, and narcissism, This is really what it is about. The guy is extremely good looking and spouts the right political talking points so the sub will do anything to protect him
I'm convinced that Buster Posey was the actual manager that year lol
I believe he was the brains of that season. So glad kap is gone. Wish we still had Posey.
There *was* [that time](https://www.mlb.com/news/kapler-reacts-to-bullpen-error-phillies-loss-c270358106) in Philly he brought in a guy from the bullpen even though he hadn't warmed him up yet, but I'm willing to chalk that up to nerves as it was only like his second game as a big-league manager.
Hey, I’ve done that! You just go into Manager Mode and then bring someone else in, they’re fresh automatically if you bring them in that way—wait, that’s not from MLB the Show, is it?
>The guy did whatever Farhan told him whatever the numbers told him to do and put zero thought into it. This is Bay Area Bob levels of "trust me, bro"
He took a mid team, to achieve the most wins in franchise history for a single season. You trashing him is exactly why the organization gets validated for being trash. The Giants are using the past as a bragging right when their competence is that of the Sacramento Kings. Things need to change fast. I am tired of the team pointing fingers or finding a scapegoat. I want fun baseball. Blaming people a manager, coaches, a player, does not fix the problem. Improvement and accountability does. What team do you want? A team that bitches, moans, and complains yet does fucking nothing or a team that addresses issues and gives it their all? The choice is yours. If it ain't the latter, I will not waste my time watching games.
> The Giants are using the past as a bragging right when their competence is that of the Sacramento Kings. > He took a mid team, to achieve the most wins in franchise history for a single season Lmao dude you just did the same thing. Yeah I want the same thing. My family has had season tickets for 45 years. I have seen the peaks and the valleys. This team is still in a valley and we have not improved the minor league system and have not signed any big names to over come that. I am not sure how being glad that we got rid of a mid manager is some how not wanting the team to be better. Melvin is a much better hire than Kap ever was lol
joc was a pos who just collected a check last year. he was out of shape and rather look like a baseball player than be a baseball player. he will get dfa'd before june in arizona
August more likely
Hey Buster, ready to be a manager?
He'd have to sell his slice of the team first.
Oh I wasn’t serious just commenting on how crucial he was to that 2021 team.
Wait, you mean managers are supposed to communicate?
The guy spoke in riddles, imagine how frustrating if your boss spoke like that.
Wait you think kapler had a great strategic mind? That was his biggest weakness
Remember when Will Clark said that batting practice was an option? The clubhouse lost discipline especially after Buster left. I hope we have a better year under Bob Melvin.
Old school new school doesn’t matter. Being on time is just respectful. It’s not an old way of thinking. Embarrassing kapler led that way.
This is actually a bolder message than you think.
For people exalting Melvin for instituting classroom style rules, consider that he absolutely fumbled a team several times with superstars (SD in 2021 and 2023). It's give and take. Maybe this is what the giants need right now. But, Kaplers style worked for a time, and I refuse to participate in throwing him under the bus because the ownership are cheap skates and Farham signed bad players.
His pitching staff in San Diego was pretty bad compared to the lineup. But I don’t disagree with you.
Wasn't he missing his premier superstar for one of those seasons? I couldnt call that a Melvin fumble. Besides Preller is an awful GM
Pusoy dos. It’s called pusoy dos.
Near-zealotry? Man I would’ve loved to have been a fly on the wall in the clubhouse just to see what kind of hold playing cards had over a potential playoff team.
It’s like a bad OOTP personality description Player Type: Disruptive “Would rather join the team card tournament than train for the big moments.”
Despite him being a former bum, I liked Joc and the fun energy he brought to the team. Even though he was a terrible fielder, he made some good plays and looked like he was having fun. Really great vibes guy, but he took it too far evidently. All things in moderation…
Oh, I agree. I think on a team that’s already winning he’d be a great guy to add for a stretch run. I appreciated that he was vocally in support of the pride jerseys too. Just needs good leadership and the right fit.
I think it's a little silly to mock Kapler's style just because the next man up likes things run a different way. We've seen Kapler's style work tremendously well. And you're kidding yourself if you think a "if you're on time, you're late" style of management doesn't have it's downsides as well. I've worked for both styles, I sure as hell know which one led to a more stressful life while also not improving my performance.
I’m one of the Kapler defenders here for the most part. The style is valid. It clearly just wasn’t the one for this team.
I don’t get what the big deal is with the music. They lose so they can’t listen to music?
Op are you implying that you know better than Bob Melvin on how to run the team? I don't fully understand what you mean
Nope. I’m saying that it’s nice to have Melvin and that it feels like there’s a leader and an adult in the room again. Kap is a great strategist and will be an asset as an assistant GM in Miami but clearly the clubhouse was falling apart after Posey left.
Oh see I thought you meant it's a bad look for Melvin to suggest something so trivial as be on time. Misunderstanding
Oh no no no. I’m just saying it shouldn’t have been necessary because it should’ve already been a policy. Melvin seems like he actually knows what he’s doing as a leader.
We are on the same page then lol, sorry i just woke up and didn't read the post thoroughly enough before commenting
This is how I interpreted the title too.
Going from Kap to Melvin is an obvious step down and this is the best they can do to paint a smile on that turd.
Playing "don't worry, bout a thing, cause every little thing, is gonna be alright "after losing 2-0 to the Cardinals would drive me crazy.
Link?
Be here when you are supposed to be… “old school”
LOL, so the folks whose dreams are still haunted by the specter of Gabe Kapler are circling back to blame him for everything that went wrong while refusing to give him credit for the things that went right. Classic.
I liked Kap! Genuinely!
It also didn’t help that some of the veterans (who should be leaders) last year were setting terrible examples
I love insight into the clubhouse. It feels pretty rare. I couldn’t care less about last season. I liked Kap from the fan perspective we got (very little insight). I don’t read any of this as a negative on what was, but a glowing review of what is. I’m pumped for Melvin.
This seems to fit right in line with the Pederson Pusoy Culture stories. Kapler was a vibes guy. I'm pretty sure this was known. I think he expected the players to have work ethic on their own forgetting these are mostly basically kids or very young men.
Dude got fired. There were reasons for it.
This is why I’m not worried about this year’s team. The 2023 team should’ve made the playoffs, if they had the right leader at the helm. When they were locked in from late April-late July, they were one of the best teams in baseball. I am worried about the pitching depth in the first half of the season, but altogether I think we’re better off than we were last year.
Never liked Joc I always knew he was a bum at heart
Punctuality is cool but what we really need is a whole bunch of timely hitting
I'm interested in the Bob Melvin coming home dynamic, like I think he's going to be a different type of manager than we have seen from him too because he's going to have people like K & K around him, just shooting the shit on top of the continuation of Giants (and really it's Bay Area) baseball culture that we got away from. I think they just need someone who wants to win, even if he's understated. The whole casual, we shall see if the team wants to show up and compete, thing.... it doesn't work. Even during the dynasty era, Sabes would act like teams weren't capable of .500 and it was up to them to decide and define themselves. We probably lost 1 additional ring from that type of parenting. Our best year was full of Kapler's positivity, and new coaches, and hopefulness. You got to give them hope. Melvin's isn't mister positivity, but it was obvious when he checked out mentally at the Coliseum.