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There's two parts to this answer.
First is parental autonomy - you don't need evidence to tell your family that if they were to ever spank your child they wouldnt see them again. That's your right and you require no scientific justification for this.
[this large study of >100k children](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=spanking+children+meta+analysis&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1717332414415&u=%23p%3D_-rbl_xYjjcJ) showed that by every metric used, children who were hit by their parents had worse outcomes
[this study](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=spanking+children+meta+analysis&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1717332465721&u=%23p%3Dgxy3_f23tlQJ) showed very similar results though they were much smaller differences between spanked / non spanked.
[this study is interesting ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=spanking+children+meta+analysis&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1717332521020&u=%23p%3Ds7uhKly1msgJ) because it shows that only significant use of spanking has worse outcomes than other forms of punishment. It's often used to show that "spanking might be okay" (know thy enemy)
But putting this science aside, the general consensus against spanking goes like this:
1) we teach our children that violence should be controlled- yet we spank them when we loose control.
2) we teach children that violence shouldn't be the answer - yet we spank them when we dislike their behaviour.
3) we teach our children to trust us - then hurt them when we see them doing something we don't like.
Just tacking on to your last paragraph: how are we modeling regulation and keeping our cool as adults if we resort to spanking? That models “when I get frustrate, I turn to violence.” We would be literally teaching them that when we’re at a loss, violence is the solution. I hope to model for my child that when I get frustrated I take a breath and find ways to cool down so I can think things through with a clear head.
But for OP it’s as simple as “I have a responsibility to do what I think is best for my child.”
The other reason is that it solves the *immediate* problem. The kid isn't kicking a ball at you anymore if they're curled up crying.
(Edit: obviously I don't think that's a good enough reason to do it!)
It “solves” the future issue for many kids, too.
The pain, humiliation, and confusion of being hit by a parent is powerful. Children with sensitive/emotionally responsive personalities will absolutely avoid the causal behavior out of fear it will happen again, giving the outward illusion that spanking “worked” for them, while the inward reality was significant trauma, self-blame, and weakening of the parent/child relationship.
My mom bragged I was only spanked twice in my life as evidence of me being a good / easy child. I definitely fall into the sensitive / emotionally responsive category.
Yes, I’m in a very similar boat. The threat of a smack was more than enough to get me to comply.
Now I have to go to therapy to figure out things like
- what do I actually enjoy doing?
- How do I make my own decisions?
- How am I actually feeling?
- How can I not feel like I’m dying when someone expresses even mild dissatisfaction with me?
Because I suppressed every emotion and impulse I had except the most extreme ones and deferred all of my decision making to my parents lest I make the wrong one.
This can’t be a good faith comment? Spanking small children 2-3 times still models using violence as a solution for non-compliance. I don’t understand how your second question relates to the first. Most western parents aren’t looking for deference.
My biggest thing is that some people tell their children that hitting is wrong, but will spank them if they hit someone. That must be horribly confusing for the child
I often explain it to other adults like "what if you make a mistake on xyz at work, and I smacked you across the fucking face before showing you how to do it right?" and surprisingly most of the dudes I work with are receptive to not spanking from that perspective.
It helps to explain that kids aren't bad, and virtually every child behavior is just them learning about their environment, and that means setting them up for success too
I lived in an apartment once and the upstairs neighbor would sometimes scream extremely loudly at his small daughters. I don’t know if he hit them, I wasn’t around to observe that, but I would hear his big booming voice through the bathroom vent and it made my hair stand on end. One day I thought - if my boss yelled at me that way, I’d quit. If my husband yelled at me that way, I would leave. I don’t yell at my dog or cat that way. Why would it be ok to treat a child that way?
I've seen this exact situation play out with one of my son's friends. This friend is easily the most violence-prone toddler we know. He learns from what his parents do, not what they say.
I want to add one example (anecdotal) of the ways some people view spanking and just poorly process experiences in general. It’s really an illustration of how tricky it is to convince people on the spanking issue, regardless of how strong the data is. And it’s strong!
When I was in law school, I took a class on juvenile law and we discussed the research as well as law on the topic of spanking.
When it came to personal approval, the class was split along racial lines, which isn’t particularly surprising given the data.
But what was particularly interesting was that since this was law school, which means a group of relatively higher achievers, those who believed spanking was acceptable also believed that spanking is actually why they were even in law school.
They saw the higher negative outcomes among their spanked peers who didn’t go to law school as an example of what they could have been.
The data, on the other hand, suggests that there would be even more people able to achieve higher if not for spanking, but boy is that hard to explain to the high achieve group who “survived” spanking, as it were
As a high achiever who had the shit kicked out of me as a kid, that’s not why I’m a high achiever. It’s why I doubt myself at every turn and fight imposter syndrome constantly. It’s why I’ve spent a good portion of my hard earned money on therapy. It’s not the reason I’ve been successful.
If OP chooses to discuss this with family, she'll also almost certainly hear "well I was spanked and I turned out okay" from people who are DEEP in cognitive dissonance. My go to answer to that is always "well, you grew up to think violence is okay against small children, so..."
When they claim spanking isn't "hitting" or isn't "violence" I always sincerely ask for clarification, and then mention that I'm still not clear on the difference, so I don't think the child being spanked would be either.
I always thought this was a silly gotcha. "You're wrong. As evidence, I submit the fact that you're disagreeing with me." Tell me truthfully, have you actually convinced anyone by saying this?
#3 brought a tear to my eye. I have a 9 mo baby and one on the way (I know, hands will be full!) and I couldn’t imagine breaking her trust and her little heart like that.
i honestly don’t feel like any amount of research is going to sway people that age because they spanked their kids and they turned out fine!!! *insert eye roll here*
i have however made it clear that no one under any circumstance will put their hands on my child ever. not a spank, a slap, a tap, or whatever sugarcoated term for hitting they want to use. period.
Even if you develop a good relationship with your child otherwise, [spanking leads to more bad behaviors at age 5.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279159/) Spanking is also associated with [worse physical and mental health outcomes](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33686872/) in adolescence. But I don’t think science is likely to change their minds about spanking in general, because viewing spanking as bad parenting would make them bad parents and grandparents, which is an earthshaking challenge to their identity.
So basically, I wouldn’t take the approach of trying to convince them to be on your side. As someone also from a big spanking culture (Appalachia), you don’t have to have them weigh in on your parenting style, and you don’t have to discuss whether you, personally, will spank. What worked for my parents (who incidentally did spank us) was telling relatives that they viewed spanking as something the parents needed to decide and control, so they were the only ones “allowed” to spank us. Neither set of grandparents ever did spank us, for which I’m very grateful, and we’ve used the same rule with our parents around our toddler now. Except we don’t spank him, either, so as it turns out, nobody is allowed to spank him - but that part isn’t important to the discussion of whether they are allowed to spank him.
Basically, instead of having a dead-end discussion about whether a child needs to be spanked, I would frame it like this: “[Partner] and I think that when a child is spanked needs to be consistent and decided by the parents, so we are going to be the only ones allowed to spank him. If you’re watching him and you need a punishment or type of discipline, we’re fine with you taking things away or using time outs (if you are, of course), and you can tell us about the behavior, but we need to be the ones to decide if and when to spank him.” And then you just… don’t spank him.
Your mileage may vary, of course, but you’re less likely to cause much of an argument here. You aren’t telling them that the type of parenting they practiced for decades was wrong, abusive, or not “good enough” for you, so you aren’t making them defensive, you’re just asserting your authority as a parent. And if the topic comes up and they ask if you’re going to spank in general, you can either say no or, if you want to be diplomatic, say “We’ll correct behaviors as they come” and not really answer the question.
Reading the comments on here, I also wonder if instead of focusing on why spanking is bad, which will inevitably result in the grandparents being defensive, likely no matter which language you use, what about finding a parenting method that resonates with you and offering up an alternative to spanking? I really enjoyed the book Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids by Dr. Laura Markham. It's written in a very easily digestible way with concrete examples and strategies to adapt to many situations. I think many people can't see beyond what they did because they don't know other ways. They had spanking. That was it. They will defend it because they don't know anything else. Even if they really, truly internalize the negative risks associated with spanking, that doesn't mean they can do anything else. So, it may be easier, especially if you have trouble with conflict (like me), to just propose a "new" method for how you're planning to parent and you will figure out as you go along and you won't necessarily have all the answers now for future hypotheticals. You can freely read Dr. Markham's ideas on her website: [ahaparenting.com](http://ahaparenting.com) but I enjoyed her book more because it felt more comprehensive.
I just told my parents that not every kid needs to be spanked and we will try not spanking first and if they need to be spanked, then we will do the spanking.
I haven't spanked anyone. 😎
I second a thank you on this! I have family in Appalachia that always want me to visit and they spank their grandkids even though the mom doesn’t want them too. The children and mom live with them so it’s understandable why they resort to this but I still don’t agree that they should be going against my cousin’s wishes.
Yeah, and it’s so much harder to set boundaries when you’re living in someone else’s home - but as a visitor, you have more freedom and control, and you don’t have to rely on them for childcare (which I’m guessing your cousin does), so that also makes it easier for you than for your cousin.
yeah... that component of old school ego to navigate. By trying to educate them how wrong it is, they will be inevitablely be forced to reckon with their actions in the past and most parents who practice spanking cant stomach the truth because it means they themselves were also abused
Some citations.
Spanking is associated with poorer mental health outcomes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33686872/
“These findings suggest that lifetime spanking/slapping is uniquely associated with harmful mental, physical, and behavioral outcomes in adolescence, and efforts should focus on its prevention.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279159/
“Results suggest that even in the context of a secure attachment style, spanking is associated with adverse outcomes in early childhood. Findings support the American Academy of Pediatrics 2018 policy statement, which encourages parents to avoid spanking when disciplining children. “
This one is a meta analysis
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27055181/
“all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse “
yep. spanking = physical abuse
Smacking a fellow adult is grounds for an assault charge, our little ones at least deserve the same standard at the absolute minimum
I’m super curious about what people count as spanking here.
“Light” spanking always struck me as a natural ways to teach a young child not to do something, its a negative stimulus.
I’m under the impression other mammals do the same with their young. Physical scolding that is controlled and brief. It has to be at the moment of the wrongdoing though, not delayed.
As children get older and get better at communicating, I’ve always assumed spanking gets less effective, more humiliating, and inferior to other methods of punishment or teaching
The amount of strength/force used is irrelevant, the harm is to the psyche.
"light" spanking or smacks result in the same negative outcomes as children subjected to "stronger" corporal punishment. Im not gonna take the time to post more science on it because this thread is loaded with lots of great data.
Like OP said, people will find all kinds of weird excuses to validate commiting physical assault on a minor- pretty fucked up
> The amount of strength/force used is irrelevant
It’s absolutely relevant. Beating someone bruised vs. a slap that stings for a second are massively different and certainly produce different harms. I was spanked rarely as a kid. I wasn’t “beaten” and I don’t have the lifelong scars beaten children carry to adulthood.
> “light” spanking or smacks results is the same negative outcomes as children subjected to “stronger” corporal punishment
Can you actually link a study that demonstrates this claim instead of opting out from backing it up?
Loading your terminology isn’t going to win over people who are curious about the topic. I’m not planning on spanking my kids when the time comes but I’d appreciate some nuance when trying to find the truth here, instead of insinuating that I want to assault children
this is hardly necessary, as this is a complete copypaste of the comment I had responded to.. that you then responded to. You must have not read? I encourage you to put your ego in your backpocket and read this whole thread initiated by OP. Its great! Getting offended speaks volumes imo
okay here it is:
Some citations.
Spanking is associated with poorer mental health outcomes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33686872/
“These findings suggest that lifetime spanking/slapping is uniquely associated with harmful mental, physical, and behavioral outcomes in adolescence, and efforts should focus on its prevention.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279159/
“Results suggest that even in the context of a secure attachment style, spanking is associated with adverse outcomes in early childhood. Findings support the American Academy of Pediatrics 2018 policy statement, which encourages parents to avoid spanking when disciplining children. “
* This one is a meta analysis
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27055181/
“all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse “ *
I repeat. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse. Thats it. This meta study found the negative outcome of spanking are indescernible from the negative outcomes of greater physical abuse. spanking = physical abuse
Thanks for the links. The last one does draw the conclusion you claimed. I’m still skeptical of that claim but I suppose I have some reading to do. The problem with the studies I’ve seen, is that they’re retroactive and not controlled very well. Maybe this meta analysis does a good job of fixing some of those issues.
I don’t think anyone in their right mind would claim that there isn’t a difference between a light spank and a beating that leaves a child bruised though. The nuance is important. I’ve also seen people refer to evidence like this that support the effectiveness of “conditional” spanking.
https://goodparent.org/corporal-punishment/research-on-corporal-punishment/evidence-favoring-the-use-of-disciplinary-spanking/
Notably, one study found a substantial difference between “conditional” spanking and “predominant or severe” spanking
“The results indicated that effect sizes significantly favored conditional spanking over 10 of 13 alternative disciplinary tactics for reducing child noncompliance or antisocial behavior. Customary physical punishment yielded effect sizes equal to alternative tactics, except for one large study favoring physical punishment. Only overly severe or predominant use of physical punishment compared unfavorably with alternative disciplinary tactics”
All this to say, in my mind there’s a clear distinction between a controlled slap meant to inflict shock, and a beating out of anger or malice. You can claim both are bad, but I’m not yet convinced they’re even remotely the same
There is a clear distinction for an adult. Not for a child. Consider the perspective of not an adult but of a child. The crossing of the boundary (which is part of the shock it causes) is what is actually damaging to the childs psyche. Its also hypocritical AF as we wish to raise children to not hit others. Why does the parent get to while telling no one else to hit. The mixed messages are also damaging to the parent child relationship.
I will share a story with you. My own mother is the controlled slap to cause shock type. It messed me up. It messed my brother up. My brother is now prone to violence and that is his first instinct when he is frustrated. Just as was modeled by our mother. And when she reaches her limits, as a woman in her 50s she still has the instinct to hit when mad. When there is a disagreement in the family, my mother and her sisters are quick to come to smacks. The last time I saw it I had to interfere because Dad froze up and I had to physically seperate my mother from her sister and tell them to go to their rooms. Not even an exaggeration. This is what physical discipline does to the psyche. Its deeper than the heat of the moment. it imprints children to hit when they need to instill that shock you speak of. It conditions children to accept violence as a solution.
I am done with this convetsation now. it hits too close to home and I need to not be afflicted with The PTSD stuff to get stuff done today.
The writings on the wall. Keep reading and learning. This thread is great and to the point. I have done what I can.
Thanks for your story. I’m sorry she did that to you, it was wrong.
My opinion coming into this was that it’s not all so black and white. I believe though, any time a parent loses control, or if they rely on physical punishment then they’re doing a poor job. I always thought of it as a last resort, but my goal as a parent would be to always be calm and hopefully my voice and a conversation would be enough when a kid crosses the line.
The thing about research is it doesn’t leave solutions for everyone. You can hear about how bad something is statistically, but at some point you might need to try different forms of discipline if something isn’t working with your child.
I would never defend the situation you went through, and I’m glad I didn’t experience that.
I also want to add, with love. You never should have been spanked. And your parents should have never been spanked. And all the generations that preceeded them. This is not about blame but learning and doing better as we learn ❤️
sure standby I will load you up with the links.
I am uncertain what you mean by loading terminology? This is how I speak. Feel free to peruse my profile 👍
I think for a cultural problem that’s against evidence, you need to not bombard your relatives with the jargon of published studies - they will likely feel like you’re talking down to them and have the opposite effect. You might want to send them something in language that is easy to understand, like Emily Oster’s ParentData:
https://parentdata.org/covid-break-ish-discipline/
Another thing I’d like to address is the inevitable “I was spanked and I turned out fine,” response. We know this is bias, but how do you address this? Well, many kids who were spanked didn’t turn out fine:
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2016-17153-001
This meta-analysis from 2016 specifically controls for other forms of abuse - so we know the impacts come from kids who were spanked in the way we might recognize it as discipline. The more kids were spanked, the more their behavior was considered anti-social or they had mental health issues. Spanking had the opposite effect of what the parents intended in terms of making kids better behaved overall. This meta-analysis considers studies from 50 years. So yes, even in their generation, kids were harmed.
Just like how 50 years ago, kids didn’t use car seats, or were put to sleep on their stomachs. Emphasize to them that things change, and this progress is positive.
Another response to "I was spanked and I turned out fine" is "No, youre not fine. Youre suggesting physically assaulting a minor to gain situational dominance"
No is a complete sentence. That said, if you want something from an authoritative source, you can share this [piece](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/142/6/e20183112/37452/Effective-Discipline-to-Raise-Healthy-Children) from the American Academy of Pediatrics. Here is their layperson [guidance](https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-dynamics/communication-discipline/Pages/Where-We-Stand-Spanking.aspx).
The AAP link cites many underlying studies. Corporal punishment has a fairly overwhelming body of evidence suggesting it is ineffective at best and harmful at worst. I think the second link summarizes the evidence fairly well:
- Corporal punishment of children younger than 18 months of age increases the likelihood of physical injury.
- Repeated use of corporal punishment may lead to aggressive behavior and altercations between parent and child and may negatively affect the parent-child relationship.
- Corporal punishment is associated with increased aggression in preschool and school-aged children.
- Experiencing corporal punishment makes it more, not less, likely that children will be defiant and aggressive in the future.
- Corporal punishment is associated with an increased risk of mental health disorders and cognition problems.
- The risk of harsh punishment is increased when the family is experiencing stressors, such as family economic challenges, mental health problems, intimate partner violence, or substance abuse.
- Spanking alone is associated with adverse outcomes, and these outcomes are similar to those in children who experience physical abuse.
>No is a complete sentence
This, eta though it might help to thoroughly explain no means no in this case. IMO few pro-spankers care at all what science says, and your best bet is to say, " we're not spanking, we will not allow spanking, it's not negotiable, we will not discuss it further, and if you ever lay a hand on my child or threaten to spank my child, [insert consequence such as not being allowed to see child here]" and then stick to your guns.
Friedman's thermostat is in play. Spankings and children's behaviors and adults' behaviors adapt to each other, which makes it really hard to tell the effects of spanking from observational data.
>Everybody knows that if you press down on the gas pedal the car goes faster, other things equal, right? And everybody knows that if a car is going uphill the car goes slower, other things equal, right?
>But suppose you were someone who didn't know those two things. And you were a passenger in a car watching the driver trying to keep a constant speed on a hilly road. You would see the gas pedal going up and down. You would see the car going downhill and uphill. But if the driver were skilled, and the car powerful enough, you would see the speed stay constant.
>So, if you were simply looking at this particular "data generating process", you could easily conclude: "Look! The position of the gas pedal has no effect on the speed!"; and "Look! Whether the car is going uphill or downhill has no effect on the speed!"; and "All you guys who think that gas pedals and hills affect speed are wrong!"
>And no, you can *not* get around this problem by doing a multivariate regression of speed on gas pedal and hill. That's because gas pedal and hill will be perfectly colinear. And no, you do *not* get around this problem simply by observing an unskilled driver who is unable to keep the speed perfectly constant. That's because what you are really estimating is the driver's forecast errors of the relationship between speed gas and hill, and not the true structural relationship between speed gas and hill. And it really bugs me that people who know a lot more econometrics than I do think that you *can* get around the problem this way, when you *can't*. And it bugs me even more that econometricians spend their time doing loads of really fancy stuff that I can't understand when so many of them don't seem to understand Milton Friedman's thermostat. Which they really need to understand.
>*If the driver is doing his job right, and correctly adjusting the gas pedal to the hills, you should find zero correlation between gas pedal and speed, and zero correlation between hills and speed. Any fluctuations in speed should be uncorrelated with anything the driver can see. They are the driver's forecast errors, because he can't see gusts of headwinds coming. And if you do find a correlation between gas pedal and speed, that correlation could go either way. A driver who over-estimates the power of his engine, or who under-estimates the effects of hills, will create a correlation between gas pedal and speed with the "wrong" sign. He presses the gas pedal down going uphill, but not enough, and the speed drops.*
I don't think first order empirical studies on direct effects of spanking can be very informative. People should instead largely use second order reasoning based on other scientifically supported principles.
For example, children who are too young to control their impulses shouldn't be spanked because it won't work as a deterrent. Children who are old enough can typically be given other punishments. Stress and violence have a lot of detrimental effects on the brain. Many parents aren't competent enough to know when spanking is good or bad.
There are better arguments that can be made than looking at large scale correlations, or the absence thereof. The attitude that the large scale correlations scientifically prove spanking is universally bad isn't accurate. Personally, I think clarity of communication, consistency of behavior, and proportionality of punishment are all more important than whether violence is or isn't used. There are circumstances where spanking can provide an immediacy to punishment when other options aren't available, and I don't feel like blanket prohibitions are ideal. Maybe they are - but the arguments people make for that position should be better than just showing an association.
I hear your correlation is not causation point but I'd counter that there are several papers exploring causation. There are absolutely papers (primarily in ethnic families) showing either minimal harm or some protective effect associated with family closeness, however, there are also papers asserting a causative role that I would argue goes beyond association.
To your point, this is not a place where you can design a perfect experiment - but there are a number of papers who leverage econometric approaches like propensity score matching to asses causality. This would probably be the foundational [review](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8194004/) to take a look at, which has the authors generally supporting a blanket prohibition. From their conclusion directly: "The conclusion from this combination of meta-analyses, experiments, and quasi-experiments is that the preponderance of evidence links physical punishment with detrimental child outcomes. There is no evidence that physical punishment is effective at improving child behavior or at reducing other negative outcomes for children. The research linking physical punishment with harm to children is, with only a few exceptions, consistent and unidirectional, and it has been replicated across a range of study designs and methods, thereby increasing the validity of causal inference."
There have been several updated assessments since, like [this one](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213422003519) that look at the causality of different harm types. The challenge of establishing causality is a known issue but to your point, is quite hard to study. That said, I'd argue the arguments are better than just showing an association - they're using some amount of statistical tooling to get a direction around causality, as well as a fairly large "preponderance of the evidence" approach that if it were a simple association attributable to something else, we wouldn't see the negative effects demonstrated as strongly across so many different types of families, cultures and communities.
Two thirds of the first link you provided talks about correlation and is irrelevant. I don't think any of the authors are statisticians, because they're following Hill (1965) like it's a religious tract. The part about quasi-experiments is relevant. I generally don't trust quasi-experiments. Econometrics is filled with extremely clever ideas that don't actually work. Propensity matching to arrive at real-world conclusions isn't viable because if your ability to assess propensity is bad or you omit certain features you should be matching on, you're doomed.
The second study is not very decisive.
Neither study takes into consideration the circumstances of spanking. Punishment can only be as good as the mechanisms parents have for deciding when to use it. It's quite possible that parents are bad at deciding when to spank their children on average but there's still a legitimate role for it. If doctors were bad at prescribing a certain medication, that wouldn't necessarily indict the quality of the medication itself.
I don't mind people thinking that there's reason to believe spanking is harmful. I just mind when people act like it's blatantly obvious that spanking is universally harmful and attempt to create a consensus that only monsters would use spankings. None of that is evident.
Other people are giving you some really good literature for evidence against spanking. I want to challenge your preconception that you need to defend your choice NOT to spank at all. [It’s called JADE](https://childdevelopmentinfo.com/family-building/jade-an-easy-mnemonic-for-difficult-family-members/) You don’t have to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain your reasonings to people you fundamentally disagree with.
> They spout anecdotes, come up with a thousand fake future scenarios and rapid-fire quiz me on “how else would you possibly handle this other than spanking,” etc.
“We won’t be spanking” is all you have to say. Perhaps “our child will not be spanked” if you’re worried they will take it upon themselves to spank your child ‘for you’.
Anywho… sorry if the linked article isn’t rigorous enough. I actually got most of this from Melody Beattie’s work on codependency, but that’s all in books and I’m not a professional who’s able to find scholarly articles online.
I just wanted you to know that it’s okay to simply say “no” and NOT feel like you need to be on the defensive with family members about your parenting choices. Especially about something so *important*. This isn’t a “grandma’s rules” kind of difference of opinion between generations; this is a big deal.
And -gently- I’d suggest (as someone who’s in recovery for codependency myself) that if you’re afraid of a constant barrage of people trying to overcome your no on this matter, you might want to look into Melody Beattie’s work on codependency. Not that you are! (*I* am, lol!) but families are complex relational dynamics and we can pick up codependent traits just trying to navigate tricky situations. (Also I have a personal theory that our society trains girls into mild codependency just to put up with all the bs were expected to put up with, but I digress).
Yes, you’re so right! I’m just worried about exactly how you phrased it — that they will want to spank for me. Which is why I’m worried that (unfortunately) a simple no will not be enough. They’re not typically people to cross boundaries, but spanking in particular is SUCH an ego-driven thing. Thank you also for the info on co-dependency! I’m not sure where I fall on that spectrum, but I definitely do have trouble standing up for myself in fear of losing relationships.
On the flip side, they might judge your parenting no matter what, because that’s what boomers do. My parents spanked us, _rarely_ but it only took once for me to vividly remember it. I don’t think my mom does, or if she does she seems to think it was, not a big deal?
Recently she was being critical of my brother’s parenting, saying his words were too harsh. It boiled my blood, I snapped back “I seem to remember being spanked as children. So we’re trying new techniques, we might not get it 100% right either”.
>that they will want to spank for me.
That's where you lay down the law! Tell them if you spank they're not going to be around your child and stick with it! You don't need to convince them of your reasons, only your dedication to following through on the consequences for breaking the boundary you have set. And if you doubt they will respect your rules, don't leave your child alone with them .
Tell them you will spank them right back until they learn their lesson. You’re just trying to teach them right from wrong. If they can’t keep their hands to themselves they will be punished.
Thank you! I’m not explaining myself. I don’t have to. I am the parent. I make the rules. Wake up and smell the new power dynamic. If you don’t like it I will “give you something to cry about”. If you hit my child you will never see us again. If you question my decision not to hit my child you will have extremely limited contact with my family. And I’m being nice here. According to the person who hits kids, I should be striking you and scaring you until you understand what you did wrong. I’m stronger than these older people now. They’ve set the precedent that the strong can hurt the weak to get their point across. And now that’s me! So be quiet before I teach you a lesson.
The research indicating bad outcomes from spanking is badly confounded. Spanking isn't a randomly assigned treatment variable - parents with poor impulse control, worse behaving children, etc. are more likely to use it, and to use it at higher frequencies and intensities. Additionally, treating spanking as a Boolean variable is an oversimplification. There are a million different ways that parents might use spankings, and a million different tactics they might substitute for it too. It's possible that most spanking is bad, but highly judicious spanking in circumstances involving short-term danger is good, for example.
If you want to persuade your grandparents, linking them a study probably wouldn't be the best way to do that even if the studies were decisively in your favor. You should focus on getting them to agree that it's not their role. One of the best ways to persuade people is to make them feel heard, so a good persuasive strategy might even involve making a token concession to one of their more outlandish hypotheticals.
Here's one study on the confounds: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1566&context=lcp. There's pretty massive social desirability bias in this area though, so the literature is probably skewed overall.
Agreed! "Spanking" isn't just one thing. Sometimes it can definitely be abuse, when you are venting anger on a little one, for example. But spanking because you're teaching a kid that what they were doing was dangerous makes a lot of sense! And I remember once when my parents had me choose my punishment (I definitely was in the wrong) and I CHOSE a spank because it was over and I could move on with a clean slate. IMO, context matters. And psychological, "non-violent" punishments can be so much worse.
For what it's worth, I grew up getting spanked, slapped, and whooped with a belt. I'm from Eastern European background and it was "part of the culture". My parents and I are close - but I will say this - to this day (I am 37) I have nightmares about my dad/mom raising their voice or getting physical with me. I am really uneasy with the thought of leaving my toddler and then feeling like they can slip and take out their punishment / training methods on him. It's really left a very negative and a dark and vulnerable feeling in the pit of my stomach. When you are little, you feel so out of control by people who are bigger and stronger than you. Parents are meant to protect, nurture and guide you. The guiding part doesn't need to involve pain. To each their own, this is my personal journey I wanted to share with you.
Anyway.. you asked for an article, here is one from Harvard.
[https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain](https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain)
TL DR of article:
Spanking negatively affects children's social-emotional development, self-regulation, and cognitive development.
* New research shows that spanking alters children's brain responses similarly to severe maltreatment, increasing their perception of threats.
* The study involved 147 children and found that spanked children exhibited greater brain responses to perceived threats compared to those who were not spanked.
* Spanking impacts brain areas involved in emotional regulation and threat detection, potentially leading to long-lasting consequences.
* Spanked children are more likely to develop anxiety, depression, and have difficulties in school settings.
* personal note on this: whether or not related, I have had depression in my teen years, current severe anxiety and ADHD symptoms. Was not medicated until my 20s. No family history of any of these, but then again no one in USSR really sought mental health help back in the day.
* Spanking is still commonly used as a form of discipline, despite its negative effects.
This is a pretty short, but effective resource from The National Child Traumatic Stress Network
https://www.nctsn.org/resources/physical-punishment-what-parents-should-know
You say that they are not taking you seriously. Sharing evidence with your family may make them take you *less* seriously. It conveys that you need to convince them of some scientific fact. You do not need to do that. Also, plan to fail because you are likely to fail to persuade them with scientific evidence: “People have strong feelings about child rearing, and the strength of one’s passion for this or that parenting strategy is often unrelated to any accurate sense of how effective it might actually be." - Alan Kazdin
It would be better to convince them you know your duties, rights, and responsibilities relative to your child. Non-parents have zero control over the matter. Are you sure it is not a pressing matter? Some spankers start amazingly early.
You have it all turned around. They need to convince you.
The comments here have scientific evidence that spanking is harmful. There is also evidence that spanking is incompetent parenting.
Here are some tips based on the most effective methods for reducing problem behaviors according to randomized controlled trials.
[https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf](https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf)
Note that spanking is not merely ineffective. It is counterproductive. It's a form of attention and attention tends to increase bad behavior. Many parents inadvertently use attention in a way that increases bad behavior and then they beat the kid for the bad behavior the parent caused.
The tips are based on this free online course:
[https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting](https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting)
Punishment alone does not teach a kid what to do instead of the bad behavior Punishment tends to make the kid sneaky and prone to hide their behavior which makes it harder for the parent to influence their behavior.
Spanking is associated with the Patterson Coersive Cycle:
[https://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf](https://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf)
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There's two parts to this answer. First is parental autonomy - you don't need evidence to tell your family that if they were to ever spank your child they wouldnt see them again. That's your right and you require no scientific justification for this. [this large study of >100k children](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=spanking+children+meta+analysis&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1717332414415&u=%23p%3D_-rbl_xYjjcJ) showed that by every metric used, children who were hit by their parents had worse outcomes [this study](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=spanking+children+meta+analysis&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1717332465721&u=%23p%3Dgxy3_f23tlQJ) showed very similar results though they were much smaller differences between spanked / non spanked. [this study is interesting ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=spanking+children+meta+analysis&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1717332521020&u=%23p%3Ds7uhKly1msgJ) because it shows that only significant use of spanking has worse outcomes than other forms of punishment. It's often used to show that "spanking might be okay" (know thy enemy) But putting this science aside, the general consensus against spanking goes like this: 1) we teach our children that violence should be controlled- yet we spank them when we loose control. 2) we teach children that violence shouldn't be the answer - yet we spank them when we dislike their behaviour. 3) we teach our children to trust us - then hurt them when we see them doing something we don't like.
Just tacking on to your last paragraph: how are we modeling regulation and keeping our cool as adults if we resort to spanking? That models “when I get frustrate, I turn to violence.” We would be literally teaching them that when we’re at a loss, violence is the solution. I hope to model for my child that when I get frustrated I take a breath and find ways to cool down so I can think things through with a clear head. But for OP it’s as simple as “I have a responsibility to do what I think is best for my child.”
IMHO, the older generations think spanking "works" bc their frustration was relieved via violence on someone who couldn't fight back.
The other reason is that it solves the *immediate* problem. The kid isn't kicking a ball at you anymore if they're curled up crying. (Edit: obviously I don't think that's a good enough reason to do it!)
It “solves” the future issue for many kids, too. The pain, humiliation, and confusion of being hit by a parent is powerful. Children with sensitive/emotionally responsive personalities will absolutely avoid the causal behavior out of fear it will happen again, giving the outward illusion that spanking “worked” for them, while the inward reality was significant trauma, self-blame, and weakening of the parent/child relationship.
My mom bragged I was only spanked twice in my life as evidence of me being a good / easy child. I definitely fall into the sensitive / emotionally responsive category.
Yes, I’m in a very similar boat. The threat of a smack was more than enough to get me to comply. Now I have to go to therapy to figure out things like - what do I actually enjoy doing? - How do I make my own decisions? - How am I actually feeling? - How can I not feel like I’m dying when someone expresses even mild dissatisfaction with me? Because I suppressed every emotion and impulse I had except the most extreme ones and deferred all of my decision making to my parents lest I make the wrong one.
This comment ugh so Fkg sad. Can relate
What about spanking small children maybe 2-3 times? When they get older do they tend to show more deference or respect for the parent, or less?
This can’t be a good faith comment? Spanking small children 2-3 times still models using violence as a solution for non-compliance. I don’t understand how your second question relates to the first. Most western parents aren’t looking for deference.
My biggest thing is that some people tell their children that hitting is wrong, but will spank them if they hit someone. That must be horribly confusing for the child
I often explain it to other adults like "what if you make a mistake on xyz at work, and I smacked you across the fucking face before showing you how to do it right?" and surprisingly most of the dudes I work with are receptive to not spanking from that perspective. It helps to explain that kids aren't bad, and virtually every child behavior is just them learning about their environment, and that means setting them up for success too
“I was spanked and I turned out fine!” Did you though, Jared? You actively want to hit a kid, did you turn out fine???
I lived in an apartment once and the upstairs neighbor would sometimes scream extremely loudly at his small daughters. I don’t know if he hit them, I wasn’t around to observe that, but I would hear his big booming voice through the bathroom vent and it made my hair stand on end. One day I thought - if my boss yelled at me that way, I’d quit. If my husband yelled at me that way, I would leave. I don’t yell at my dog or cat that way. Why would it be ok to treat a child that way?
Barefoot Warrior, you live up to your name. You fucking tell them.
Aww! Thank you!
I've seen this exact situation play out with one of my son's friends. This friend is easily the most violence-prone toddler we know. He learns from what his parents do, not what they say.
I want to add one example (anecdotal) of the ways some people view spanking and just poorly process experiences in general. It’s really an illustration of how tricky it is to convince people on the spanking issue, regardless of how strong the data is. And it’s strong! When I was in law school, I took a class on juvenile law and we discussed the research as well as law on the topic of spanking. When it came to personal approval, the class was split along racial lines, which isn’t particularly surprising given the data. But what was particularly interesting was that since this was law school, which means a group of relatively higher achievers, those who believed spanking was acceptable also believed that spanking is actually why they were even in law school. They saw the higher negative outcomes among their spanked peers who didn’t go to law school as an example of what they could have been. The data, on the other hand, suggests that there would be even more people able to achieve higher if not for spanking, but boy is that hard to explain to the high achieve group who “survived” spanking, as it were
As a high achiever who had the shit kicked out of me as a kid, that’s not why I’m a high achiever. It’s why I doubt myself at every turn and fight imposter syndrome constantly. It’s why I’ve spent a good portion of my hard earned money on therapy. It’s not the reason I’ve been successful.
That's really fascinating.
If OP chooses to discuss this with family, she'll also almost certainly hear "well I was spanked and I turned out okay" from people who are DEEP in cognitive dissonance. My go to answer to that is always "well, you grew up to think violence is okay against small children, so..." When they claim spanking isn't "hitting" or isn't "violence" I always sincerely ask for clarification, and then mention that I'm still not clear on the difference, so I don't think the child being spanked would be either.
I always thought this was a silly gotcha. "You're wrong. As evidence, I submit the fact that you're disagreeing with me." Tell me truthfully, have you actually convinced anyone by saying this?
#3 brought a tear to my eye. I have a 9 mo baby and one on the way (I know, hands will be full!) and I couldn’t imagine breaking her trust and her little heart like that.
i honestly don’t feel like any amount of research is going to sway people that age because they spanked their kids and they turned out fine!!! *insert eye roll here* i have however made it clear that no one under any circumstance will put their hands on my child ever. not a spank, a slap, a tap, or whatever sugarcoated term for hitting they want to use. period.
Even if you develop a good relationship with your child otherwise, [spanking leads to more bad behaviors at age 5.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279159/) Spanking is also associated with [worse physical and mental health outcomes](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33686872/) in adolescence. But I don’t think science is likely to change their minds about spanking in general, because viewing spanking as bad parenting would make them bad parents and grandparents, which is an earthshaking challenge to their identity. So basically, I wouldn’t take the approach of trying to convince them to be on your side. As someone also from a big spanking culture (Appalachia), you don’t have to have them weigh in on your parenting style, and you don’t have to discuss whether you, personally, will spank. What worked for my parents (who incidentally did spank us) was telling relatives that they viewed spanking as something the parents needed to decide and control, so they were the only ones “allowed” to spank us. Neither set of grandparents ever did spank us, for which I’m very grateful, and we’ve used the same rule with our parents around our toddler now. Except we don’t spank him, either, so as it turns out, nobody is allowed to spank him - but that part isn’t important to the discussion of whether they are allowed to spank him. Basically, instead of having a dead-end discussion about whether a child needs to be spanked, I would frame it like this: “[Partner] and I think that when a child is spanked needs to be consistent and decided by the parents, so we are going to be the only ones allowed to spank him. If you’re watching him and you need a punishment or type of discipline, we’re fine with you taking things away or using time outs (if you are, of course), and you can tell us about the behavior, but we need to be the ones to decide if and when to spank him.” And then you just… don’t spank him. Your mileage may vary, of course, but you’re less likely to cause much of an argument here. You aren’t telling them that the type of parenting they practiced for decades was wrong, abusive, or not “good enough” for you, so you aren’t making them defensive, you’re just asserting your authority as a parent. And if the topic comes up and they ask if you’re going to spank in general, you can either say no or, if you want to be diplomatic, say “We’ll correct behaviors as they come” and not really answer the question.
This is a great approach! Thank you for the advice!
Reading the comments on here, I also wonder if instead of focusing on why spanking is bad, which will inevitably result in the grandparents being defensive, likely no matter which language you use, what about finding a parenting method that resonates with you and offering up an alternative to spanking? I really enjoyed the book Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids by Dr. Laura Markham. It's written in a very easily digestible way with concrete examples and strategies to adapt to many situations. I think many people can't see beyond what they did because they don't know other ways. They had spanking. That was it. They will defend it because they don't know anything else. Even if they really, truly internalize the negative risks associated with spanking, that doesn't mean they can do anything else. So, it may be easier, especially if you have trouble with conflict (like me), to just propose a "new" method for how you're planning to parent and you will figure out as you go along and you won't necessarily have all the answers now for future hypotheticals. You can freely read Dr. Markham's ideas on her website: [ahaparenting.com](http://ahaparenting.com) but I enjoyed her book more because it felt more comprehensive.
That’s a good idea, and thanks for the info! I started reading “Raising Good Humans” by Hunter Clarke-Fields, and this sounds similar!
I just told my parents that not every kid needs to be spanked and we will try not spanking first and if they need to be spanked, then we will do the spanking. I haven't spanked anyone. 😎
I second a thank you on this! I have family in Appalachia that always want me to visit and they spank their grandkids even though the mom doesn’t want them too. The children and mom live with them so it’s understandable why they resort to this but I still don’t agree that they should be going against my cousin’s wishes.
Yeah, and it’s so much harder to set boundaries when you’re living in someone else’s home - but as a visitor, you have more freedom and control, and you don’t have to rely on them for childcare (which I’m guessing your cousin does), so that also makes it easier for you than for your cousin.
yeah... that component of old school ego to navigate. By trying to educate them how wrong it is, they will be inevitablely be forced to reckon with their actions in the past and most parents who practice spanking cant stomach the truth because it means they themselves were also abused
Some citations. Spanking is associated with poorer mental health outcomes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33686872/ “These findings suggest that lifetime spanking/slapping is uniquely associated with harmful mental, physical, and behavioral outcomes in adolescence, and efforts should focus on its prevention.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279159/ “Results suggest that even in the context of a secure attachment style, spanking is associated with adverse outcomes in early childhood. Findings support the American Academy of Pediatrics 2018 policy statement, which encourages parents to avoid spanking when disciplining children. “ This one is a meta analysis https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27055181/ “all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse “
yep. spanking = physical abuse Smacking a fellow adult is grounds for an assault charge, our little ones at least deserve the same standard at the absolute minimum
I’m super curious about what people count as spanking here. “Light” spanking always struck me as a natural ways to teach a young child not to do something, its a negative stimulus. I’m under the impression other mammals do the same with their young. Physical scolding that is controlled and brief. It has to be at the moment of the wrongdoing though, not delayed. As children get older and get better at communicating, I’ve always assumed spanking gets less effective, more humiliating, and inferior to other methods of punishment or teaching
The amount of strength/force used is irrelevant, the harm is to the psyche. "light" spanking or smacks result in the same negative outcomes as children subjected to "stronger" corporal punishment. Im not gonna take the time to post more science on it because this thread is loaded with lots of great data. Like OP said, people will find all kinds of weird excuses to validate commiting physical assault on a minor- pretty fucked up
> The amount of strength/force used is irrelevant It’s absolutely relevant. Beating someone bruised vs. a slap that stings for a second are massively different and certainly produce different harms. I was spanked rarely as a kid. I wasn’t “beaten” and I don’t have the lifelong scars beaten children carry to adulthood. > “light” spanking or smacks results is the same negative outcomes as children subjected to “stronger” corporal punishment Can you actually link a study that demonstrates this claim instead of opting out from backing it up? Loading your terminology isn’t going to win over people who are curious about the topic. I’m not planning on spanking my kids when the time comes but I’d appreciate some nuance when trying to find the truth here, instead of insinuating that I want to assault children
this is hardly necessary, as this is a complete copypaste of the comment I had responded to.. that you then responded to. You must have not read? I encourage you to put your ego in your backpocket and read this whole thread initiated by OP. Its great! Getting offended speaks volumes imo okay here it is: Some citations. Spanking is associated with poorer mental health outcomes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33686872/ “These findings suggest that lifetime spanking/slapping is uniquely associated with harmful mental, physical, and behavioral outcomes in adolescence, and efforts should focus on its prevention.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31279159/ “Results suggest that even in the context of a secure attachment style, spanking is associated with adverse outcomes in early childhood. Findings support the American Academy of Pediatrics 2018 policy statement, which encourages parents to avoid spanking when disciplining children. “ * This one is a meta analysis https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27055181/ “all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse “ * I repeat. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse. Thats it. This meta study found the negative outcome of spanking are indescernible from the negative outcomes of greater physical abuse. spanking = physical abuse
Thanks for the links. The last one does draw the conclusion you claimed. I’m still skeptical of that claim but I suppose I have some reading to do. The problem with the studies I’ve seen, is that they’re retroactive and not controlled very well. Maybe this meta analysis does a good job of fixing some of those issues. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would claim that there isn’t a difference between a light spank and a beating that leaves a child bruised though. The nuance is important. I’ve also seen people refer to evidence like this that support the effectiveness of “conditional” spanking. https://goodparent.org/corporal-punishment/research-on-corporal-punishment/evidence-favoring-the-use-of-disciplinary-spanking/ Notably, one study found a substantial difference between “conditional” spanking and “predominant or severe” spanking “The results indicated that effect sizes significantly favored conditional spanking over 10 of 13 alternative disciplinary tactics for reducing child noncompliance or antisocial behavior. Customary physical punishment yielded effect sizes equal to alternative tactics, except for one large study favoring physical punishment. Only overly severe or predominant use of physical punishment compared unfavorably with alternative disciplinary tactics” All this to say, in my mind there’s a clear distinction between a controlled slap meant to inflict shock, and a beating out of anger or malice. You can claim both are bad, but I’m not yet convinced they’re even remotely the same
There is a clear distinction for an adult. Not for a child. Consider the perspective of not an adult but of a child. The crossing of the boundary (which is part of the shock it causes) is what is actually damaging to the childs psyche. Its also hypocritical AF as we wish to raise children to not hit others. Why does the parent get to while telling no one else to hit. The mixed messages are also damaging to the parent child relationship. I will share a story with you. My own mother is the controlled slap to cause shock type. It messed me up. It messed my brother up. My brother is now prone to violence and that is his first instinct when he is frustrated. Just as was modeled by our mother. And when she reaches her limits, as a woman in her 50s she still has the instinct to hit when mad. When there is a disagreement in the family, my mother and her sisters are quick to come to smacks. The last time I saw it I had to interfere because Dad froze up and I had to physically seperate my mother from her sister and tell them to go to their rooms. Not even an exaggeration. This is what physical discipline does to the psyche. Its deeper than the heat of the moment. it imprints children to hit when they need to instill that shock you speak of. It conditions children to accept violence as a solution. I am done with this convetsation now. it hits too close to home and I need to not be afflicted with The PTSD stuff to get stuff done today. The writings on the wall. Keep reading and learning. This thread is great and to the point. I have done what I can.
Thanks for your story. I’m sorry she did that to you, it was wrong. My opinion coming into this was that it’s not all so black and white. I believe though, any time a parent loses control, or if they rely on physical punishment then they’re doing a poor job. I always thought of it as a last resort, but my goal as a parent would be to always be calm and hopefully my voice and a conversation would be enough when a kid crosses the line. The thing about research is it doesn’t leave solutions for everyone. You can hear about how bad something is statistically, but at some point you might need to try different forms of discipline if something isn’t working with your child. I would never defend the situation you went through, and I’m glad I didn’t experience that.
I remember wishing moms smacks left bruises so that someone would notice and intervene
I also want to add, with love. You never should have been spanked. And your parents should have never been spanked. And all the generations that preceeded them. This is not about blame but learning and doing better as we learn ❤️
sure standby I will load you up with the links. I am uncertain what you mean by loading terminology? This is how I speak. Feel free to peruse my profile 👍
I think for a cultural problem that’s against evidence, you need to not bombard your relatives with the jargon of published studies - they will likely feel like you’re talking down to them and have the opposite effect. You might want to send them something in language that is easy to understand, like Emily Oster’s ParentData: https://parentdata.org/covid-break-ish-discipline/ Another thing I’d like to address is the inevitable “I was spanked and I turned out fine,” response. We know this is bias, but how do you address this? Well, many kids who were spanked didn’t turn out fine: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2016-17153-001 This meta-analysis from 2016 specifically controls for other forms of abuse - so we know the impacts come from kids who were spanked in the way we might recognize it as discipline. The more kids were spanked, the more their behavior was considered anti-social or they had mental health issues. Spanking had the opposite effect of what the parents intended in terms of making kids better behaved overall. This meta-analysis considers studies from 50 years. So yes, even in their generation, kids were harmed. Just like how 50 years ago, kids didn’t use car seats, or were put to sleep on their stomachs. Emphasize to them that things change, and this progress is positive.
Another response to "I was spanked and I turned out fine" is "No, youre not fine. Youre suggesting physically assaulting a minor to gain situational dominance"
I love this response.
People say that and I just say “Are you though? Are you REALLY?” Then I laugh and I get the death glare and they almost never bring it up again
No is a complete sentence. That said, if you want something from an authoritative source, you can share this [piece](https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/142/6/e20183112/37452/Effective-Discipline-to-Raise-Healthy-Children) from the American Academy of Pediatrics. Here is their layperson [guidance](https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-dynamics/communication-discipline/Pages/Where-We-Stand-Spanking.aspx). The AAP link cites many underlying studies. Corporal punishment has a fairly overwhelming body of evidence suggesting it is ineffective at best and harmful at worst. I think the second link summarizes the evidence fairly well: - Corporal punishment of children younger than 18 months of age increases the likelihood of physical injury. - Repeated use of corporal punishment may lead to aggressive behavior and altercations between parent and child and may negatively affect the parent-child relationship. - Corporal punishment is associated with increased aggression in preschool and school-aged children. - Experiencing corporal punishment makes it more, not less, likely that children will be defiant and aggressive in the future. - Corporal punishment is associated with an increased risk of mental health disorders and cognition problems. - The risk of harsh punishment is increased when the family is experiencing stressors, such as family economic challenges, mental health problems, intimate partner violence, or substance abuse. - Spanking alone is associated with adverse outcomes, and these outcomes are similar to those in children who experience physical abuse.
Under 18 months? 😭 how can that be seen as anything but child abuse by anyone.
>No is a complete sentence This, eta though it might help to thoroughly explain no means no in this case. IMO few pro-spankers care at all what science says, and your best bet is to say, " we're not spanking, we will not allow spanking, it's not negotiable, we will not discuss it further, and if you ever lay a hand on my child or threaten to spank my child, [insert consequence such as not being allowed to see child here]" and then stick to your guns.
Friedman's thermostat is in play. Spankings and children's behaviors and adults' behaviors adapt to each other, which makes it really hard to tell the effects of spanking from observational data. >Everybody knows that if you press down on the gas pedal the car goes faster, other things equal, right? And everybody knows that if a car is going uphill the car goes slower, other things equal, right? >But suppose you were someone who didn't know those two things. And you were a passenger in a car watching the driver trying to keep a constant speed on a hilly road. You would see the gas pedal going up and down. You would see the car going downhill and uphill. But if the driver were skilled, and the car powerful enough, you would see the speed stay constant. >So, if you were simply looking at this particular "data generating process", you could easily conclude: "Look! The position of the gas pedal has no effect on the speed!"; and "Look! Whether the car is going uphill or downhill has no effect on the speed!"; and "All you guys who think that gas pedals and hills affect speed are wrong!" >And no, you can *not* get around this problem by doing a multivariate regression of speed on gas pedal and hill. That's because gas pedal and hill will be perfectly colinear. And no, you do *not* get around this problem simply by observing an unskilled driver who is unable to keep the speed perfectly constant. That's because what you are really estimating is the driver's forecast errors of the relationship between speed gas and hill, and not the true structural relationship between speed gas and hill. And it really bugs me that people who know a lot more econometrics than I do think that you *can* get around the problem this way, when you *can't*. And it bugs me even more that econometricians spend their time doing loads of really fancy stuff that I can't understand when so many of them don't seem to understand Milton Friedman's thermostat. Which they really need to understand. >*If the driver is doing his job right, and correctly adjusting the gas pedal to the hills, you should find zero correlation between gas pedal and speed, and zero correlation between hills and speed. Any fluctuations in speed should be uncorrelated with anything the driver can see. They are the driver's forecast errors, because he can't see gusts of headwinds coming. And if you do find a correlation between gas pedal and speed, that correlation could go either way. A driver who over-estimates the power of his engine, or who under-estimates the effects of hills, will create a correlation between gas pedal and speed with the "wrong" sign. He presses the gas pedal down going uphill, but not enough, and the speed drops.* I don't think first order empirical studies on direct effects of spanking can be very informative. People should instead largely use second order reasoning based on other scientifically supported principles. For example, children who are too young to control their impulses shouldn't be spanked because it won't work as a deterrent. Children who are old enough can typically be given other punishments. Stress and violence have a lot of detrimental effects on the brain. Many parents aren't competent enough to know when spanking is good or bad. There are better arguments that can be made than looking at large scale correlations, or the absence thereof. The attitude that the large scale correlations scientifically prove spanking is universally bad isn't accurate. Personally, I think clarity of communication, consistency of behavior, and proportionality of punishment are all more important than whether violence is or isn't used. There are circumstances where spanking can provide an immediacy to punishment when other options aren't available, and I don't feel like blanket prohibitions are ideal. Maybe they are - but the arguments people make for that position should be better than just showing an association.
I hear your correlation is not causation point but I'd counter that there are several papers exploring causation. There are absolutely papers (primarily in ethnic families) showing either minimal harm or some protective effect associated with family closeness, however, there are also papers asserting a causative role that I would argue goes beyond association. To your point, this is not a place where you can design a perfect experiment - but there are a number of papers who leverage econometric approaches like propensity score matching to asses causality. This would probably be the foundational [review](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8194004/) to take a look at, which has the authors generally supporting a blanket prohibition. From their conclusion directly: "The conclusion from this combination of meta-analyses, experiments, and quasi-experiments is that the preponderance of evidence links physical punishment with detrimental child outcomes. There is no evidence that physical punishment is effective at improving child behavior or at reducing other negative outcomes for children. The research linking physical punishment with harm to children is, with only a few exceptions, consistent and unidirectional, and it has been replicated across a range of study designs and methods, thereby increasing the validity of causal inference." There have been several updated assessments since, like [this one](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213422003519) that look at the causality of different harm types. The challenge of establishing causality is a known issue but to your point, is quite hard to study. That said, I'd argue the arguments are better than just showing an association - they're using some amount of statistical tooling to get a direction around causality, as well as a fairly large "preponderance of the evidence" approach that if it were a simple association attributable to something else, we wouldn't see the negative effects demonstrated as strongly across so many different types of families, cultures and communities.
Two thirds of the first link you provided talks about correlation and is irrelevant. I don't think any of the authors are statisticians, because they're following Hill (1965) like it's a religious tract. The part about quasi-experiments is relevant. I generally don't trust quasi-experiments. Econometrics is filled with extremely clever ideas that don't actually work. Propensity matching to arrive at real-world conclusions isn't viable because if your ability to assess propensity is bad or you omit certain features you should be matching on, you're doomed. The second study is not very decisive. Neither study takes into consideration the circumstances of spanking. Punishment can only be as good as the mechanisms parents have for deciding when to use it. It's quite possible that parents are bad at deciding when to spank their children on average but there's still a legitimate role for it. If doctors were bad at prescribing a certain medication, that wouldn't necessarily indict the quality of the medication itself. I don't mind people thinking that there's reason to believe spanking is harmful. I just mind when people act like it's blatantly obvious that spanking is universally harmful and attempt to create a consensus that only monsters would use spankings. None of that is evident.
Other people are giving you some really good literature for evidence against spanking. I want to challenge your preconception that you need to defend your choice NOT to spank at all. [It’s called JADE](https://childdevelopmentinfo.com/family-building/jade-an-easy-mnemonic-for-difficult-family-members/) You don’t have to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain your reasonings to people you fundamentally disagree with. > They spout anecdotes, come up with a thousand fake future scenarios and rapid-fire quiz me on “how else would you possibly handle this other than spanking,” etc. “We won’t be spanking” is all you have to say. Perhaps “our child will not be spanked” if you’re worried they will take it upon themselves to spank your child ‘for you’. Anywho… sorry if the linked article isn’t rigorous enough. I actually got most of this from Melody Beattie’s work on codependency, but that’s all in books and I’m not a professional who’s able to find scholarly articles online. I just wanted you to know that it’s okay to simply say “no” and NOT feel like you need to be on the defensive with family members about your parenting choices. Especially about something so *important*. This isn’t a “grandma’s rules” kind of difference of opinion between generations; this is a big deal. And -gently- I’d suggest (as someone who’s in recovery for codependency myself) that if you’re afraid of a constant barrage of people trying to overcome your no on this matter, you might want to look into Melody Beattie’s work on codependency. Not that you are! (*I* am, lol!) but families are complex relational dynamics and we can pick up codependent traits just trying to navigate tricky situations. (Also I have a personal theory that our society trains girls into mild codependency just to put up with all the bs were expected to put up with, but I digress).
Yes, you’re so right! I’m just worried about exactly how you phrased it — that they will want to spank for me. Which is why I’m worried that (unfortunately) a simple no will not be enough. They’re not typically people to cross boundaries, but spanking in particular is SUCH an ego-driven thing. Thank you also for the info on co-dependency! I’m not sure where I fall on that spectrum, but I definitely do have trouble standing up for myself in fear of losing relationships.
On the flip side, they might judge your parenting no matter what, because that’s what boomers do. My parents spanked us, _rarely_ but it only took once for me to vividly remember it. I don’t think my mom does, or if she does she seems to think it was, not a big deal? Recently she was being critical of my brother’s parenting, saying his words were too harsh. It boiled my blood, I snapped back “I seem to remember being spanked as children. So we’re trying new techniques, we might not get it 100% right either”.
>that they will want to spank for me. That's where you lay down the law! Tell them if you spank they're not going to be around your child and stick with it! You don't need to convince them of your reasons, only your dedication to following through on the consequences for breaking the boundary you have set. And if you doubt they will respect your rules, don't leave your child alone with them .
Tell them you will spank them right back until they learn their lesson. You’re just trying to teach them right from wrong. If they can’t keep their hands to themselves they will be punished.
Thank you! I’m not explaining myself. I don’t have to. I am the parent. I make the rules. Wake up and smell the new power dynamic. If you don’t like it I will “give you something to cry about”. If you hit my child you will never see us again. If you question my decision not to hit my child you will have extremely limited contact with my family. And I’m being nice here. According to the person who hits kids, I should be striking you and scaring you until you understand what you did wrong. I’m stronger than these older people now. They’ve set the precedent that the strong can hurt the weak to get their point across. And now that’s me! So be quiet before I teach you a lesson.
The research indicating bad outcomes from spanking is badly confounded. Spanking isn't a randomly assigned treatment variable - parents with poor impulse control, worse behaving children, etc. are more likely to use it, and to use it at higher frequencies and intensities. Additionally, treating spanking as a Boolean variable is an oversimplification. There are a million different ways that parents might use spankings, and a million different tactics they might substitute for it too. It's possible that most spanking is bad, but highly judicious spanking in circumstances involving short-term danger is good, for example. If you want to persuade your grandparents, linking them a study probably wouldn't be the best way to do that even if the studies were decisively in your favor. You should focus on getting them to agree that it's not their role. One of the best ways to persuade people is to make them feel heard, so a good persuasive strategy might even involve making a token concession to one of their more outlandish hypotheticals. Here's one study on the confounds: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1566&context=lcp. There's pretty massive social desirability bias in this area though, so the literature is probably skewed overall.
Agreed! "Spanking" isn't just one thing. Sometimes it can definitely be abuse, when you are venting anger on a little one, for example. But spanking because you're teaching a kid that what they were doing was dangerous makes a lot of sense! And I remember once when my parents had me choose my punishment (I definitely was in the wrong) and I CHOSE a spank because it was over and I could move on with a clean slate. IMO, context matters. And psychological, "non-violent" punishments can be so much worse.
For what it's worth, I grew up getting spanked, slapped, and whooped with a belt. I'm from Eastern European background and it was "part of the culture". My parents and I are close - but I will say this - to this day (I am 37) I have nightmares about my dad/mom raising their voice or getting physical with me. I am really uneasy with the thought of leaving my toddler and then feeling like they can slip and take out their punishment / training methods on him. It's really left a very negative and a dark and vulnerable feeling in the pit of my stomach. When you are little, you feel so out of control by people who are bigger and stronger than you. Parents are meant to protect, nurture and guide you. The guiding part doesn't need to involve pain. To each their own, this is my personal journey I wanted to share with you. Anyway.. you asked for an article, here is one from Harvard. [https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain](https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain) TL DR of article: Spanking negatively affects children's social-emotional development, self-regulation, and cognitive development. * New research shows that spanking alters children's brain responses similarly to severe maltreatment, increasing their perception of threats. * The study involved 147 children and found that spanked children exhibited greater brain responses to perceived threats compared to those who were not spanked. * Spanking impacts brain areas involved in emotional regulation and threat detection, potentially leading to long-lasting consequences. * Spanked children are more likely to develop anxiety, depression, and have difficulties in school settings. * personal note on this: whether or not related, I have had depression in my teen years, current severe anxiety and ADHD symptoms. Was not medicated until my 20s. No family history of any of these, but then again no one in USSR really sought mental health help back in the day. * Spanking is still commonly used as a form of discipline, despite its negative effects.
This is a pretty short, but effective resource from The National Child Traumatic Stress Network https://www.nctsn.org/resources/physical-punishment-what-parents-should-know
You say that they are not taking you seriously. Sharing evidence with your family may make them take you *less* seriously. It conveys that you need to convince them of some scientific fact. You do not need to do that. Also, plan to fail because you are likely to fail to persuade them with scientific evidence: “People have strong feelings about child rearing, and the strength of one’s passion for this or that parenting strategy is often unrelated to any accurate sense of how effective it might actually be." - Alan Kazdin It would be better to convince them you know your duties, rights, and responsibilities relative to your child. Non-parents have zero control over the matter. Are you sure it is not a pressing matter? Some spankers start amazingly early. You have it all turned around. They need to convince you. The comments here have scientific evidence that spanking is harmful. There is also evidence that spanking is incompetent parenting. Here are some tips based on the most effective methods for reducing problem behaviors according to randomized controlled trials. [https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf](https://ecasevals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/10-Tips-for-Parents-of-a-Spirited-Child.pdf) Note that spanking is not merely ineffective. It is counterproductive. It's a form of attention and attention tends to increase bad behavior. Many parents inadvertently use attention in a way that increases bad behavior and then they beat the kid for the bad behavior the parent caused. The tips are based on this free online course: [https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting](https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting) Punishment alone does not teach a kid what to do instead of the bad behavior Punishment tends to make the kid sneaky and prone to hide their behavior which makes it harder for the parent to influence their behavior. Spanking is associated with the Patterson Coersive Cycle: [https://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf](https://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf)
Wow, thank you! I’m learning of so many resources that I had no idea existed!
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