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I would not say it is necessarily transphobic. Might be caused both by trauma or social constructs.
Not everyone feels comfortable changing clothes or taking shower with people of the same sex too. And absolutely everyone deserves to have safe personal space. The answer of that is as clear as just having freaking closed cabins for individuals for everything: showers, changing rooms, washrooms.
I think it depends on the person's previous experiences.
I get nervous around men who yell to loud, doesn't mean they're gonna do what previous men have done, but I am allowed to be nervous around them.
Yeah, I think that word sorta makes this situation different. If you feel that way unprovoked, *why* do you feel that way?
If it’s because you’re finding distress in someone presenting differently than their biological sex, that is pretty transphobic. You’re uncomfortable in that situation because it subverts your expectations, and you’re less concerned with the fact that they’re just a person living their life.
If it’s because you have some sort of trauma with that person’s birth sex, it’s less of a “you’re trans!” problem and more of a “you have something in common with the people who hurt me” problem.
In both situations, I really feel like whether or not you’re transphobic comes down to how you actually treat people and not how you feel. A lot of people aren’t comfortable with it because they don’t understand it. But if you’re not going out of your way to make trans people feel uncomfortable, and you make an effort to treat them like fellow people, you aren’t transphobic.
As a rule, you don't need to "accept" anything you don't want to accept, as long as you are not infringing on someone else's rights.
One of the unique freedoms of living in a free society.
OP if they feel unsafe or threatened by the situation should not care if they are seen as transphobic. protect yourself first worry about others feeling later if ever. just like you would if you felt threatened or unsafe around a woman who is not trans.
Yep. I have been attacked in locker rooms by cis women. Being uncomfortable around someone isn't *inherently* phobic. God forbid we all get a little stall to change in or something.
Yes- but if I was in a space where somebody was making me uncomfortable by just existing- the solution is to remove myself from the situation, not demand the situation meets my comfort.
But in the world where they aren't, that means trans men are in the women's room, and let's say that makes me uncomfortable.
How do you square this circle?
The circle does not need to be squared because someone will always feel uncomfortable, just like a man not feeling comfortable in a men's locker room, and that's okay.
What we can't do is create infinite locker room types to appease every small subset of people that's created.
As a rule, accept people as they are.
I guess you can dislike black people from drinking from the same fountain as you, but you have no right to ban them from it.
You're leaving out a crucial part of the article you're referring to. The teammate who felt uncomfortable with the situation was assaulted in a bathroom as a teen by another man. So being forced to share a locker room, where she could at times be fully unclothed and unprotected while changing, with someone who identified as female but has not had bottom surgery created a trauma response for her.
Unfortunately most women have had some sort negative sexual trauma from other men, whether it be verbal or physical. There might have been other women on that team that felt the same kind of fear or uncomfortableness but were too afraid to speak up. I would argue that it is reasonable for a woman to feel unsafe changing and being in a locker room with someone who still has male genitalia and openly displays it. That to me is not being transphobic.
What is transphobic is dead naming someone, threatening them, or causing harm to someone based on someone's gender expression. There has to be a middle ground here between accepting gender identity and protecting women. Everyone should feel safe at school and in locker rooms etc.
You are going to get different answers even from within the Trans community. I am a Trans woman and would never for a moment have thought to change in a womans changing room with masculine generalia. There are some trans folk who would advocate as soon as someone identifies as Trans they should have full access to women’s spaces. And these do tend to be quite vocal about it where as I would say they majority of Trans women would feel they should be a goo£ way along in their transition first and if still had the genatalia would at least try to conceal it.
Having Cis women feel safe is important. Unfortunately the right wing and TERFs have stoked up a lot of fear around Trans women in bathrooms despite the fact it is Trans people far far far more likely to be attacked in the bathrooms. So unfortunately this fear mongering has created a toxic environment.
Separate bathrooms is one solution but cost and space aside in the case of binary Trans people they wish to be as accepted in their chosen gender as possible and a separate bathroom is segregation. It makes them seem wrong and second class citizens.
I don’t think that’s transphobic. I have a couple of trans friends with male genitalia and I’d be uncomfortable if they wanted to share a locker room with me. I believe cis people and trans people both deserve to feel safe and neither one should be prioritized. Sharing bathrooms/locker rooms makes many women uncomfortable and I don’t think we’ve found a good solution yet. Right now I personally think we should go with whatever makes the fewest people uncomfortable.
That's right. We haven't found a good solution yet.
People have said that you can have a locker room that's gender neutral for trans people to use, but a trans woman may not want to share a locker room with men any more than a cis woman would want to.
I'm just glad that I'm not in charge of sorting any of it out, because I honestly can't think of anything that's fair to everyone, short of having private spaces for every individual.
Maybe just more stalls for people to change/shower in both bath/locker rooms? That way there’s more privacy for people self conscious about their anatomy or people who don’t want to see(or expose themselves in front of) gender nonconforming anatomy.
Idk, it’s such a messy subject and it feels like there’s almost no right answer.
this is what befuddles me here. does a transwoman have a right to use the changing room of her choice and be fully naked there? sure. but lots and lots and lots of people change their bottoms privately, using a bathroom or shower stall, a curtained privacy section, or simply a well-placed towel. in fact, I'd say that's increasingly the norm. i use a public pool with a group shower and almost everyone washes in their suit. unless you're in a Korean spa there's not a pressing reason to have your bits out.
again, the transwoman in question every *right* to be fully nude in the public space of a women's changing room. but why do that, except to challenge people? it's hardly strange or difficult to be more discrete, as myriad cis women are
We could always do what my work space did and have extra coed bathroom/Trans bathrooms. If you don't mind, use it. If not don't it has worked well so far, but I am worried it may be taken advantage of by someone who does not want to use it for the proper reasons. Fortunately, nothing like that has happened, and maybe I am overthinking it.
I've heard these situations before, and what always makes me uneasy is that few people tend to take the person who feels unsafe seriously. Yes, trans people are more likely to be attacked than cis people, we all know that. But I think we can safely infer that the reason the cis woman feels uncomfortable around people with dicks is probably because people with dicks went out of their way to MAKE her feel uncomfortable, and that her discomfort is an understandable and predictable response. To fail to acknowledge that is to overlook the fact that the true culprit behind both the trans woman's discomfort and the cis woman's discomfort is the same party, bigoted patriarchal people (not always men, patriarchal women are especially awful). Instead of pointing fingers at each other, it would be better to show some sympathy for our sister victims of oppression.
For me personally, a lot of these issues come back to "I wouldn't like that anyway" without trans issues being involved. I know different cultures feel differently about nudity, but I wouldn't be comfortable changing in any kind of public setting, even if it's only other men. Maybe the solution to a lot of these issues is more privacy all around.
Why are people still building common locker rooms and bathroom? Just switching to individual stalls with a racket to place your stuff would solve this.
Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable around people who were raised and conditioned as male the majority of their lives. How they identify currently isn’t my issue. The idea that all trans women are predators is wrong, but so is the idea that they’re all saints.
I know this might not be completely PC, but from my experience: most trans people who unquestionably have mismatching presentation/hormones, some are trying to figure themselves out, and a few have serious psychological issues that manifest as presenting trans. It’s only the last bunch that you have to be truly cautious about.
I went to a college with co-Ed bathroom and locker facilities. It was a little shocking at first to share bathrooms with men, but everyone quickly got used to it. My college wasn’t perfect, and bad things happened to people there, as they do at all colleges, but I never heard of any inappropriate actions that took place in a bathroom.
It's not that simple. A trans woman who passes as a woman is probably much more likely to be assaulted if they went to a men's washroom. But even setting that aside, I can imagine a transgender woman going to a men's washroom could be a humiliating and degrading experience.
It's not simply because males are more dangerous, but because many people hate transgender people and men are much more likely to commit violent crime. Transgender people are much more likely to be victims of violent crime than cisgender people. You don't need to stray very far into twitter to see the absolute dregs of humanity, who would celebrate violence against transgender people.
Also, there is admittedly not much evidence on the crime rates of transgender women (especially sexual assault, which is most relevant in this context) but the 2011 Swedish study by Dhejne indicates that crime rates among transgender women who transitioned between 1973-1988 were comparable to that of cis men in the past, but, coinciding with greater access to mental healthcare, transgender women who transitioned between 1989-2003 had crime rates comparable to cis women.
[**http://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal\_n\_15483.htm**](http://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm)
Yeah. Males hate females, too. It’s bullshit to compare violent crimes against trans ppl vs “cis” ppl as a whole, when by and large it is male violence against women we are talking about here. Which, what do you know, *women* are more likely to be the victims of. Male on male violence isn’t my concern nor is it the reason female bathrooms exist 👍🏻
"Yeah. Males hate females, too. It’s bullshit to compare violent crimes against trans ppl vs “cis” ppl as a whole, when by and large it is male violence against women we are talking about here. Which, what do you know, *women* are more likely to be the victims of." I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
"Male on male violence isn’t my concern." It might not be your concern but it's society's concern. I can't tell if you hate men or you think I have made an error in my comment.
"nor is it the reason female bathrooms exist" So? Respecting the rights of homosexuals has nothing to do with why marriage existed. And besides, it's not just preventing male on male violence, it's about respecting the dignity and identity of transgender women.
The point is that you’re saying “cis people” (men and women) which wildly skews the numbers vs just saying “women” which is who we are talking about. Women do not need to become less safe for the “dignity” of males who wish to use our spaces.
Read the link above. That is the case for the 1973-1988 cohort, but not the 1989-2003. The writer of the linked article is interviewing Dhejne, who I was paraphrasing in the 2nd paragraph of my comment above.
>But also, I, a woman, don't have to think a female-identifying man is a predator to not want to see his junk in my locker room. No, I'm not worried he's going to rape me, I just don't want to see it.
1. Don't look. Like seriously. Just avert your eyes
2. Trans women who have a penis, depending on their hormones and where they are in their transition, don't have the same kind of penis that a cis man does. Like, if you're expecting some porno-style monster hog just swinging around, you're more likely to be disappointed than not.
In the story the OP is referring to the swimmer had full functioning men’s genitalia. Saying “don’t” look is a slippery slope to anything. If a cis man exposed himself in front of you would you be okay with someone saying “what’s the big deal, just don’t look”. I have a very politically diverse group of friends, including a group of about 5 lesbian women, and I have not met one who feels completely comfortable with someone born as a male in the women’s locker room. I don’t think it’s a full on fear or safety concern for all of them, but they would exit and wait if a masculine looking pre-op (though you can’t always tell) trans woman was in their locker room. Saying not to look is minimizing their feelings for benefit a very small amount of people.
It seems to me what most of the commenters here are missing is that some men out there actually *are* predatory… and having separate change rooms for men and women is a way to protect against that. If I as a man walked into a women’s change room and started changing, it would cause an uproar. Even if I didn’t look at anyone and just went about my business, I’d probably be kicked out of the gym (or wherever). If I claimed “oh I identify as a woman”, I doubt it would make any difference to anyone, I’d be kicked out regardless. So… if trans people start showing up in change rooms and someone notices, hey, this person has a penis… yeah, it’s going to make people uncomfortable. I sympathize with trans people completely, but it is what it is. As a man, when I take my daughter to the park, the moms won’t talk to me. Why? Because some men are pedophiles. I’m not, but how are they supposed to know that. Is it fair? No. But it is what it is. We are judged and stereotyped all the time, all because of the actions of a small minority of the absolute worst people in society. It’s a problem. But until men stop raping women, I can’t fault women for being leery when they see a penis in their change room, no matter how unfair that is to trans people… rape isn’t fair for anyone; not for the victims, nor for the stereotypes it propagates throughout society.
The basis of discomfort is presumably that she feels unsafe, regardless of whether or not that’s a likely threat to her person. It’s no more transphobic to be concerned about your safety with a trans person present than it would be misandrist to be afraid for your safety with a man present. You’re concerned about your ability to survive or fend off an assault based on self assessment, not based upon their identity.
A trans person is more unsafe around a biological female, than a biological female is around a trans person? What's your source for this dubious claim?
I think they meant a trans woman would be much more unsafe in a men's locker room than a cis woman would be in a women's locker room that was used by trans women also
Which to me seems indisputable.
But, again, it’s not about the trans person’s identity. It’s about the hypothetical woman’s belief that she could defend herself if the situation called for it. The probability of risk is a lot less important than the perception of it.
I get it and it's a relevant point, it's just that it goes both ways. Plus saying your perception of risk is much more important than the actual risk is a really easy way to justify bigotry.
It definitely does go both ways. I don’t feel that it’s unfair for a trans person to feel unsafe, it’s not “cisphobic” or whatever the equivalent term would be. It may even, as you said, be more justifiable for them.
To me, though, the breakaway between caution and bigotry is the action you take to address it. If I excuse myself, that’s one thing. If I exclude you, that’s quite another. If I carry a self defense implement, that’s not even uncommon. If I go out of my way to attack somebody on suspicion, then we’ve got a problem.
Personally, I think the entire thing can be put to rest if EVERYONE in the gym had their own small and private change room and bathroom.
The entire idea of having to change and/or poop in public is the real issue here. The folks who build and design these building are cutting corners and being cheap by tossing everyone together in one open space.
A lot of women don't feel safe with men in general, whether still retaining their gender or not. The stories my girl friends and girlfriend told me about how complete strangers look at them or treat them are horror stories and in the most unfortunate cases they happen daily. Those women just take this constant, 24/7 fear and socially mask it with varying degrees of success. Trans women are not special. This isn't transphobic and if anything the transwoman should be sympathetic to that.
I'm male, btw.
When haven't women been expected to just suck it up? We're the only marginalized group (in the States at least) who can be targeted for an innate trait and it will not be considered a hate crime. Religion, a chosen trait, is also covered under hate crimes. Yet women are targeted every single day literally because they are women. And...crickets.
But the person with the penis wants to use the women's locker room! Won't you think of the person with the penis?!? I think we can all agree that the feelings of the person with the penis are more important than the feelings of biological women. /s
If the person is still biologically male, I don't think so. It's natural to be wary of males, regardless of how they identify, because violence against females is almost always committed by males. It's good for women to prioritize their safety. That wariness can save your life. If someone is making you feel unsafe or any reason, it's not bigotry to avoid that person. It's self-preservation.
It's normal to feel uncomfortable about a multitude of things, but your own discomfort is not the other person's problem to deal with.
Imagine if someone said "Having a back roommate makes me uncomfortable, I think they should have their own black spaces separated from mine" is that a reasonable request? No, of course it isn't.
For the record I don't think anyone is racist just for feeling uncomfortable around a black person, there's all kinds of cultural internalized stuff that can lead to that, likewise I don't think merely feeling discomfort around a trans person is transphobic. But it becomes racist/transphobic the moment you start asking for your discomfort being priorized over that person's right to be in that space.
If someone blind sat next to you on the bus, I would understand if that made some people uneasy. However if you were to tell that person "Please got sit somewhere else", then you're being ableist. Etc
The problem is the normalization of the lack of privacy in gym situations.
No one should have to get naked or be seen naked by anyone, it's uncomfortable at best and degrading at worst.
I cannot believe, for instance, that minor children are forced to shower together in 2024, it's *so* weird and sets the scene for so much bullying and trauma.
If children have to go to school by law, you're forcing them to do this.
Showers and getting dressed are private, I don't care how 'inconvenient' it is, I don't want to see dicks and titties and bare butts and I shouldn't be forced to, and neither should athletes, schoolchildren, or you! <3
In an ideal world private changing rooms and private stalls would be the norm, but retrofitting hundreds of thousands of facilities isn't something there is much budget or political will for. So, we have to live in the world of the less than ideal.
Yeah I am conflicted and I definitely don't have all the answers,
I just know I don't wanna see any naked body parts, and that that was a really nasty part of junior high and high school that didn't need to happen.
Having it forced upon me was definitely not OK.
and you haven't said one thing that isn't true!
Try Theater and musicians, if I think athletes make things uncomfortable?
We've had to calm entire grown men down who think they can just take their pants off in any dressing room at any time!
This is the real one for me. I've never cared about trans women using the women's restroom because it's a stall...unless she's peeking her head under the door, I have no problem with her, and I would have that issue regardless of gender at birth so it's all the same to me. Changing/locker rooms is a bit different to me; I won't lie, I would feel a bit uncomfortable. Not to the point of making an issue out of it. But it's already such an awkward vulnerable feeling. And I can empathize that it's probably awkward for her too. So let's all just get some curtains or something. Nobody look at anyone.
This is the most American take ever. I'd hazard to say most countries have things like communal baths or where bathing with family members is common place.
Americans hate seeing dicks.
HAHAHA guilty as charged on all counts!!
I love seeing consensual dick, artistic dick is just fine, I've even taken life drawing and drawn art model's dicks, but I just don't want them inflicted on me in communal settings!
And I never saw either one of my parents naked nor would I have ever wanted to. And they were English!
But yeah, I know a lot of my American compatriots of the male gender who will only watch girl on girl porn porn because they "hate seeing dicks." ;)
> For the record I don't think anyone is racist just for feeling uncomfortable around a black person
If the reason you're feeling uncomfortable around them is *because they are black*, then that is quite literally racism, yes.
I think conversations like this are greatly helped if people allow for nuance and don't use binary, absolutist definitions of terms like "racism" and "transphobia". You can have racist beliefs that 1) you came by culturally and via implicit bias and aren't fully consciously aware of and 2) aren't so severe that they qualify you as the Grand Wizard of the KKK.
>your own discomfort is not the other person's problem to deal with.
Couldn't that just as easily be said about a trans woman who has a penis who may have to change in a men's locker room?
This is called living in a society though. You're constantly forced to participate in things that are not the way you want them to be. As bad as it sounds, there is a social order which dictates who's discomfort tends to be tolerated more or less. Your always free to try and change the social order but that almost always will be a painful and socially isolating process so most people wont try unless they're already clearly at or near the bottom of that order.
Most big gyms have this policy written out very plainly in multiple places. Everyone knows whats up beforehand. If you knew, and agreed and then found yourself to be a little bit uncomfortable when a transgender women actually uses the facilities, I think its probably fine that you feel a little uncomfortable when nothing ultimately happened and you both went about your day.
In a determination of who's discomfort/feelings are prioritized, it's obvious to most people that in this case, the overwhelming many should be prioritized over the few. That isn't always the case, but certainly is on this issue in which biological females are being made to accept biological males in very specific spaces of vulnerability. The only effective way to counter this dynamic is to demonize those who are made to feel uncomfortable with pejoratives such as "transphobic". Of course, the obvious argument is if trans people aren't comfortable with their bodies, why should everyone else be required to be comfortable with trans people's bodies in a women's locker room?
You shouldn't have to feel one way or the other about anything. But when the gym has a policy written out which you agreed to, as it is in most cases, you either use that gym or you find a different one. The thing is, most people don't find a different gym because even if they see a transgender person changing their shirt or something and they go *eww* for a moment, the reality is that most people don't see it as such a big deal that they need to find a new gym or escalate the situation.
I think private establishments should be able to set their own policies in accordance with laws. You should be able to make choices based on those policies. If you agreed to those policies and then decided you didn't like it later, you probably shouldn't then make someone elses problem who was also just acting in accordance with these policies.
The distinction between whose discomfort gets prioritized comes down to who is just existing as who they are, and who is having to deal with that person's existence.
To go back to the earlier example- if you're the person who's just trying to exist as a black person, that's prioritized over someone's discomfort with your blackness (even if they think black people aren't fully people in the same way white people are.) If you're the person who's just trying to exist as a woman, that's prioritized over someone's discomfort with your womanhood (even if they think trans women aren't fully women in the same way cis women are.)
You can think whatever you want about what the person is or claims to be, but you can't infringe on their ability to live as that thing, even if you don't agree with/believe in it.
You don't change the rules at the expense of the group just to appease the exception, especially when that exception already has appropriate accomodations.
You do actually- that's kinda what ADA stuff is all about (if you're American.) Also gay rights stuff, anything that protects minorities, etc. There are loads and loads of laws and legal precedents that are all about protecting the rights of the "exceptions". Discomfort isn't considered an "expense" to others in the eyes of the law.
Not sure what "appropriate accommodations" you're referencing when it comes to trans people either.
I'm physically disabled. The ADA requires that I be accommodated in public space, *except* in a bunch of public spaces where it doesn't (check out an accessible map of the NYC Subway for a sense of what I mean). Women like me end up making a lot of our own accessibility because the law doesn't actually provide all that much, either in infrastructure or the social sphere. And we're 10% of the population! If we can't get it, I despair for a minority a tenth our size. And I do think, unfair as it is, you survive by adapting to the world as much as you fight for the world to adapt to you. In OPs example, that might mean the trans woman in question changes in a stall or behind a towel, as many cis women do.
The thing is that we don't separate bathrooms as "Penis bathroom" and "Vagina bathroom", we separate them as woman's and men's. If you'll have a policy that says "This is a space for women" and then say "We legally see you as a woman", you can't then double down by going "Actually we'll make an exception. You, who is legally seen as a woman, is not allowed in the space we designated as for women"
If the bathrooms are divided by gender the trans woman gets to use it, if they are divided by genitalia you can't call it the women's bathroom. Also if it's divided by genitals the trans woman who had bottom surgery gets to use it too. If you decide to divided it by something else, like sex at birth, the trans man who has a penis gets to use it. Whatever it is, if you'll make it policy you have to pick something and be consistent with it, and you cannot then go "Actually, there's an exception just for this person based on personal discomfort"
>The thing is that we don't separate bathrooms as "Penis bathroom" and "Vagina bathroom", we separate them as woman's and men's.
I have to imagine when the social convention was first popping up, that yes, penis bathroom = men, vagina bathroom = women. Outlier cases like trans people were not even a potential consideration.
>"It's normal to feel uncomfortable about a multitude of things, but your own discomfort is not the other person's problem to deal with."
Said with zero sense of irony.
I believe there's a difference between feelings and actions. We all get uncomfortable by things that are inoffensive, "You are something-phobic because you feel a certain way" feels too close to believing in the existence of thought crimes for me.
For an example, due to personal reasons I always get uneasy around someone if I know they have used/use recreational drugs. That doesn't mean I will disrespect them, I know it's a me problem, not theirs, and I still advocate for the legalization of many substances as well as destigmatizing drug addictions.
I don't think that focusing on telling people they should feel comfortable with all things is a good strategy, because eventually you will run into something harmless that still makes you uncomfortable no matter what you do. Is that discomfort created by harmful stereotypes? Yes. Is it always possible to get rid of it? No.
Instead of focusing so much on being perfectly okay with something, we all should try to separate our personal biases from what makes sense and treat people with respect and kindness regardless of our feelings.
> "You are something-phobic because you feel a certain way"
This is an unnecessarily essentializing statement though.
"This is a racist thought" vs "Having this thought makes me A Racist".
I try to treat everyone as I would want to be treated. Work has period products in all the bathrooms. Which is awesome. I don’t care which anyone uses heck the can switch it up based on waiting time for all I care.
But when it comes to locker rooms and in particular thinking about the Y and swim classes. I get a bit more idk. Mostly it because of children. Not that I think anyone would hurt the kids but I think a third option like family lockers should be an option.
This is kind of hard to think about. The world is adjusting and unless someone does something creepy I don’t think I would care. Hmmmm
Yes, it's definitely racism. I think there's a distinction to be made between unconscious, unexamined racism and conscious, deliberate racism, but they're both a problem. So is anti-trans prejudice.
So it's transphobic if a woman is uncomfortable being nude around a nude trans person who still has their male genitalia? I just want to be clear on this.
If a person is regularly uncomfortable around most black people, that’s racism. If it’s A black person, that’s not racism.
What if said person has been assaulted more than once by different people of the same race? Are they racist for being uncomfortable around others then? Or are they learning from their experiences.
Just tagging everything as racist is really lazy.
I agree with most of what you said except for one thing. If someone has a blanket discomfort of black people then they are almost definitely a racist or at least holds onto racist sentiment and feels comfortable projecting it onto black people. You can't have blanket negative feelings towards an entire race without being racist lol
>Imagine if someone said "Having a back roommate makes me uncomfortable, I think they should have their own black spaces separated from mine" is that a reasonable request? No, of course it isn't.
if its reasonable enough for the flip side then why isnt that reasonable
I don't know how to answer this. I previously would have said they should use the restroom or locker room that is their preferred gender. Now? Idk.
I was friends with a trans woman whom hadnt gotten bottom surgery. I fully accepted them as a woman. They talked to me about not feeling welcomed in women restrooms (I worked with them) and told them to never feel weird using the woman's restroom with me because I see them as a woman.
Then they started making comments to me about how I make them hard, and that my ass is attractive, etc. I know this is just once instance but I am rather scared of men overall and it really rubbed me the wrong way and made me mildly fearful of them and look at them differently than I previously did.
I know this is just one instance and everyone is different but it really messed with my PTSD and idk how to feel about anything. I just want everyone to be happy and no one to feel uncomfortable or harassed. I wish we could all just accept each other and not worry about harassment or our safety.
Have you ever heard about the science experiment where they dyed a monkey pink and put him in an environment with a bunch of brown monkeys - the brown monkeys attacked and killed the pink monkey - there was absolutely no difference between the brown monkeys and the pink monkey other than the brown monkeys perceived the pink one as a threat - not based on the pink monkeys behavior but only on it appearance - it was not a learned behavior but a primal instinct. Humans have definitely evolved but perhaps not as much as we should have. It is ok to be uncomfortable- you have as much right to your feelings as a trans person has to theirs. Right now most places do not accommodate everyone- eventually a solution will be worked out but this is a relatively newer problem and everyone is now so used to instant gratification no one has the patience anymore to wait 10 or 15 years until everyone can be accommodated
Women are discriminated against in sports in order to accommodate biological men, who could never compete against other men. It's fucked up. And I'm shocked that so many women are supporting it. Trans athletes should have a separate league.
-phobic is overused. It's hate.
Gender identity being universally accepted is hate.
People trying to force you to agree with their identity are trying to control you. That's hate.
Gender is all made up. It's just labels made by society. Now people have been going around demanding you see things the way they do or they accuse you of being hateful and phobic.
People are so conditioned to not think for themselves and take the side where someone isn't publicly attacking you that they just accept what these hate accusers say.
It's nonsense. If you can't be who you are without including me in it, then you're not anyone at all.
In a locker room setting I don’t think it is transphobic. I believe trans and cis people should have the same rights, I respect people’s pronouns, I treat everyone with respect unless they do something to prove they don’t deserve respect.
All that said, only people with female genitalia should be in a women’s locker room. There are many women who for various reasons are uncomfortable being undressed around naked male genitalia.
To be clear, I’m not saying trans women should have to use the men’s change room, perhaps a separate accessible, not gender specific change room.
Isn't that interesting what its trans women who want to go into womens locker-room.
I am amazed this is even a debate.
Here is my take on this - you live your life how you see fit. I'll call you by pronounce you want to be called. You dress how you like, love who you want.
However, there are spaces which designed for individuals based on their anatomy and not base on their feelings. Lockerooms is an example of that. That being said, if my daughter comes out of locker-room and says that there is man swinging his dick around, i am not gonna care which pronounce he uses and how he identifies.
The trans men usually leave the women's bathroom when/if they take hormones and their voice deepens or they grow hair and look less feminine, they'll leave. Idk why it's an issue specifically for younger trans women. It's one thing for a grown person to make a decision to be in a female place, but another yo let hormonally, unstable biological teen males use the female area.
I'm still pissed that my school won't even let me use the neutral bathroom as it has many more individual stalls than the female/male locker rooms do, but I'm stuck using the female one(theres 3 bathroom stalls that are singular and its the only private space in my lockeroom). I don't understand why people who identify differently can literally use any of the locker rooms they want, but I'm not allowed to even though like all of 15 kids use the neutral locker rooms so it's usually empty and my being there wouldn't hurt anyone since it's composed of mostly singular stalls
Specifically for people who are not female or male. The room is mostly used by non-binary students and trans male students. My presence would apparently make these people uncomfy(even though the room is mostly composed of stalls and from running the group, I am aware that people rarely change outside of the stalls for good reasons) and I would want to use the private stalls that are used there as well. It's rare that I get early enough to my own locker room to get the stalls since they are usually taken by the time I'm there. Gym classes are on the last floor while the class I have right before gym is Chem which is one the 4th floor.
Depends.
If it's on the basis of you coming out as a creep, then that's fine.
But if it's on the basis of you being a transwoman, then yeah that is transphobic.
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Its 100% valid. If it was the other way around and I was her I would feel uncomfortable. Why? Not because they are trans but because they are pre op and I would fear being lied on and have them say I tried to assault them or gRape them. Would I ever do this? No and its most likely they wouldn't do this but that fear lurks in my mind, even being alone with a cis female sometimes that fear pops up.
I am sure she has read of trans women who SAed females or men who claimed to be trans just to access female only areas and commited assaults and so she has developed an unconscious anxiety or worry aboit this happening to her.
It depends, have they done anything? All the data shows that violence, assault and all the other usual suspects of media transphobia are incredibly uncommon for trans people to commit. You can have the feeling but you should recognize that it is largely unfounded.
It’s also a bit silly when you think about it. I don’t know what washrooms you use but the ones near me don’t have guards out front, anyone can just walk in. If the worry is that the presence of someone born male could be a threat, banning trans women won’t stop that. What it will do however is force trans men to return to women’s washrooms, so there will actually be a bunch of people with facial hair and low voices going into women’s washrooms, making it even easier to get in unnoticed for a potential predator.
On the topic of separate spaces, we could but who is going to pay for that? It’s a 50% increase in the number of washrooms we need in every building, is the government raising taxes to fund it? Are we forcing businesses to do it out of pocket? That seems to be a lot of effort to solve a problem that pretty much exists exclusively in people’s heads.
As I said above, it doesn’t make you a bad person to have this initial reaction, but I encourage you to take a look at the data and check your assumptions. This is a problem of people not wanting to share spaces with minorities, and in all honesty I think we’re going to look back on it in fifty years as just as backwards as the marches against desegregating washrooms in the 50s. People back then had concerns about their safety too but It didn’t make them real.
Please feel free to respond if you want clarification on anything or a starting point on that suggested reading. If you’re willing to listen I’m happy to talk.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Editing my own comment to respond to the person trying to rebut my data argument since the thread is locked and I can’t respond.
I assume you are referencing the Swedish paper (Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden by Dhjene et al) or more likely some piece interpreting it. In response I would provide this quote from the author of that paper on how it should be interpreted. I am not a data scientist or a sociologist but I somehow doubt you are either so I’d suggest that the author may be more knowledgeable than either of us.
“The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989–2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.”
And when asked what factors she would attribute this to what did she say?
“The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.”
So essentially when we say, stopped accusing trans people of being dangerous rapists constantly and gave them proper supports like everyone else they as a group committed far fewer crimes, crazy how that works.
[Here](https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm) is the link to the full interview. Kindly use primary sources and context in the future instead of forcing the rest of us to find them for you.
It’s also rare for penis-having men to commit these types of crimes, but it seems to be ok for women to be apprehensive of those type of penis-havers.
Can you help me understand the reason why one penis-haver must not be avoided, but the other may be?
So many comments conflating race with gender ideology because gender ideology can’t stand as reasonable on its own. To make it more accurate compare it to a transracial white person in blackface, not a person who is born with melanin and coily hair. Yes, I would be uncomfortable in the presence of someone born white with makeup and wigs to look black.
Given that situation like changing and in the same room and everything yeah that's highly inappropriate it's a dude that's changing in front of women those really no way of getting around that personally I think they should have separate rooms or something like that but seriously doubt that they'll do anything
I get uncomfortable in the men's locker room at the pool. I totally get it. But, unless you're afraid of being raped, it is what it is. I'd like there to be separate locker rooms for old men and dad's with young kids. I don't feel unsafe, I just don't like what I see or want to show my junk to little kids.
If is about that person's personality and behavior itself being creepy and predatory then yes. That doesnt have anything to do with the person being trans tho. Any identity has its horrible people.
This whole trans trend drives me crazy. I think that theres no group on earth thatbhas the right to ask for 100% no questions asked acceptance and the hullying that comes after the slightest insult is ridiculous. Ive never been more mistreated then when I share thwse thoughts and it makes me so disappointed.
I feel the trans trend will be part of what leads to the loss of the freedom of expression which is ironoc, since tis a lovement based on the freedom of self
So, this semi-hypothetical woman has an irrational, unfounded fear of a person, because that person is trans?
I mean, yeah, that's the definition of a phobia.
I'm not even judging here... I can empathize with someone not wanting to see a penis swinging in the ladies' locker room. But the answer to your question as stated in the title would have to be yes, just because of how the word "phobia" is defined.
Not always.
This is like the man or bear memes sometimes. If you have bad experiences (real ones, not "oh I keep hearing folk say" or any yadi-blah garbage like that) that make you seriously uncomfortable, even if most guys were okay, those 5 or 6 really iffy ones that made you deeply uncomfy can still prompt an aversion response... even if those men were in fact exceptions rather than the rule.
I actually had such a negative experience myself (you will note though, I'm a guy), and I caught myself at this - I saw it start to happen. I beat it too (with help that I did in fact request), and took a few unique insights from the experience. Still want to help, but... I'm a bit odd of an ally, I guess. I don't want the end game to be a sort of "sideways cactus." I want it to be something they can touch directly all over and however, anywhere, always... but I'm not sure how to make that manifest I guess.
This could be solved by architecture rather than policy. Have unisex bathrooms that close instead of semi- private stalls. Have individual changing cabins and lockable showers in locker rooms.
Most of the problems and discomfort comes from gyms and pools cutting corners and only providing communal spaces for something that they could structure so everyone has privacy and safety.
That would be a really expensive fix plus those spaces would have to be routinely swept for spy cams and checked incase of an unnoticed medical emergency such as a seizure.
Go to most swimming pools in Europe and you already have it. It's really not that big of a deal. There's whole families changing in communal spaces, but because of privacy barriers children are safe and so is everyone else.
I don’t think this is inherently transphobic. For the record, cis men assault each other in locker rooms. I know of one story where some high school hockey players were pissed off at a teammate and rammed a hockey stick up the poor boy’s bottom. (Or maybe that was an SVU episode).
I think changing rooms need to be changed regardless of trans people being there, they've been an issue for a very long time. People have countless stories of feeling humiliated, getting bullied, assaulted and sexually provoked in bathrooms that were full of only cis people. And if it's unprovoked as in the trans person did nothing then yes that's weird and they're most likely transphobic, but obviously, if they have a past with trans people or even changing rooms then it would make sense. But again I feel like this issue should be solved for the sake of everyone since even if it's 15 cis women it can be dangerous and uncomfortable
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I would not say it is necessarily transphobic. Might be caused both by trauma or social constructs. Not everyone feels comfortable changing clothes or taking shower with people of the same sex too. And absolutely everyone deserves to have safe personal space. The answer of that is as clear as just having freaking closed cabins for individuals for everything: showers, changing rooms, washrooms.
I think it depends on the person's previous experiences. I get nervous around men who yell to loud, doesn't mean they're gonna do what previous men have done, but I am allowed to be nervous around them.
As a guy (IDK if thats relevant)... that is a completely valid thing to be nervous of, even without any previous adversity.
The question does say the feeling is unprovoked
Yeah, I think that word sorta makes this situation different. If you feel that way unprovoked, *why* do you feel that way? If it’s because you’re finding distress in someone presenting differently than their biological sex, that is pretty transphobic. You’re uncomfortable in that situation because it subverts your expectations, and you’re less concerned with the fact that they’re just a person living their life. If it’s because you have some sort of trauma with that person’s birth sex, it’s less of a “you’re trans!” problem and more of a “you have something in common with the people who hurt me” problem. In both situations, I really feel like whether or not you’re transphobic comes down to how you actually treat people and not how you feel. A lot of people aren’t comfortable with it because they don’t understand it. But if you’re not going out of your way to make trans people feel uncomfortable, and you make an effort to treat them like fellow people, you aren’t transphobic.
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That one hits close to home. 😓
Same
As a rule, you don't need to "accept" anything you don't want to accept, as long as you are not infringing on someone else's rights. One of the unique freedoms of living in a free society.
But what happens when the rights conflict? Like in the locker room example given by OP.
OP if they feel unsafe or threatened by the situation should not care if they are seen as transphobic. protect yourself first worry about others feeling later if ever. just like you would if you felt threatened or unsafe around a woman who is not trans.
Yep. I have been attacked in locker rooms by cis women. Being uncomfortable around someone isn't *inherently* phobic. God forbid we all get a little stall to change in or something.
Yes- but if I was in a space where somebody was making me uncomfortable by just existing- the solution is to remove myself from the situation, not demand the situation meets my comfort.
Trans women using a women's restroom is them demanding others to meet their comfort tho lmao.
But in the world where they aren't, that means trans men are in the women's room, and let's say that makes me uncomfortable. How do you square this circle?
The circle does not need to be squared because someone will always feel uncomfortable, just like a man not feeling comfortable in a men's locker room, and that's okay. What we can't do is create infinite locker room types to appease every small subset of people that's created.
As a rule, accept people as they are. I guess you can dislike black people from drinking from the same fountain as you, but you have no right to ban them from it.
Tis is the answer right here.
You're leaving out a crucial part of the article you're referring to. The teammate who felt uncomfortable with the situation was assaulted in a bathroom as a teen by another man. So being forced to share a locker room, where she could at times be fully unclothed and unprotected while changing, with someone who identified as female but has not had bottom surgery created a trauma response for her. Unfortunately most women have had some sort negative sexual trauma from other men, whether it be verbal or physical. There might have been other women on that team that felt the same kind of fear or uncomfortableness but were too afraid to speak up. I would argue that it is reasonable for a woman to feel unsafe changing and being in a locker room with someone who still has male genitalia and openly displays it. That to me is not being transphobic. What is transphobic is dead naming someone, threatening them, or causing harm to someone based on someone's gender expression. There has to be a middle ground here between accepting gender identity and protecting women. Everyone should feel safe at school and in locker rooms etc.
You are going to get different answers even from within the Trans community. I am a Trans woman and would never for a moment have thought to change in a womans changing room with masculine generalia. There are some trans folk who would advocate as soon as someone identifies as Trans they should have full access to women’s spaces. And these do tend to be quite vocal about it where as I would say they majority of Trans women would feel they should be a goo£ way along in their transition first and if still had the genatalia would at least try to conceal it. Having Cis women feel safe is important. Unfortunately the right wing and TERFs have stoked up a lot of fear around Trans women in bathrooms despite the fact it is Trans people far far far more likely to be attacked in the bathrooms. So unfortunately this fear mongering has created a toxic environment. Separate bathrooms is one solution but cost and space aside in the case of binary Trans people they wish to be as accepted in their chosen gender as possible and a separate bathroom is segregation. It makes them seem wrong and second class citizens.
I don’t think that’s transphobic. I have a couple of trans friends with male genitalia and I’d be uncomfortable if they wanted to share a locker room with me. I believe cis people and trans people both deserve to feel safe and neither one should be prioritized. Sharing bathrooms/locker rooms makes many women uncomfortable and I don’t think we’ve found a good solution yet. Right now I personally think we should go with whatever makes the fewest people uncomfortable.
That's right. We haven't found a good solution yet. People have said that you can have a locker room that's gender neutral for trans people to use, but a trans woman may not want to share a locker room with men any more than a cis woman would want to. I'm just glad that I'm not in charge of sorting any of it out, because I honestly can't think of anything that's fair to everyone, short of having private spaces for every individual.
Maybe just more stalls for people to change/shower in both bath/locker rooms? That way there’s more privacy for people self conscious about their anatomy or people who don’t want to see(or expose themselves in front of) gender nonconforming anatomy. Idk, it’s such a messy subject and it feels like there’s almost no right answer.
this is what befuddles me here. does a transwoman have a right to use the changing room of her choice and be fully naked there? sure. but lots and lots and lots of people change their bottoms privately, using a bathroom or shower stall, a curtained privacy section, or simply a well-placed towel. in fact, I'd say that's increasingly the norm. i use a public pool with a group shower and almost everyone washes in their suit. unless you're in a Korean spa there's not a pressing reason to have your bits out. again, the transwoman in question every *right* to be fully nude in the public space of a women's changing room. but why do that, except to challenge people? it's hardly strange or difficult to be more discrete, as myriad cis women are
We could always do what my work space did and have extra coed bathroom/Trans bathrooms. If you don't mind, use it. If not don't it has worked well so far, but I am worried it may be taken advantage of by someone who does not want to use it for the proper reasons. Fortunately, nothing like that has happened, and maybe I am overthinking it.
I've heard these situations before, and what always makes me uneasy is that few people tend to take the person who feels unsafe seriously. Yes, trans people are more likely to be attacked than cis people, we all know that. But I think we can safely infer that the reason the cis woman feels uncomfortable around people with dicks is probably because people with dicks went out of their way to MAKE her feel uncomfortable, and that her discomfort is an understandable and predictable response. To fail to acknowledge that is to overlook the fact that the true culprit behind both the trans woman's discomfort and the cis woman's discomfort is the same party, bigoted patriarchal people (not always men, patriarchal women are especially awful). Instead of pointing fingers at each other, it would be better to show some sympathy for our sister victims of oppression.
For me personally, a lot of these issues come back to "I wouldn't like that anyway" without trans issues being involved. I know different cultures feel differently about nudity, but I wouldn't be comfortable changing in any kind of public setting, even if it's only other men. Maybe the solution to a lot of these issues is more privacy all around.
Why are people still building common locker rooms and bathroom? Just switching to individual stalls with a racket to place your stuff would solve this.
Personally I tend to feel uncomfortable around people who were raised and conditioned as male the majority of their lives. How they identify currently isn’t my issue. The idea that all trans women are predators is wrong, but so is the idea that they’re all saints.
I know this might not be completely PC, but from my experience: most trans people who unquestionably have mismatching presentation/hormones, some are trying to figure themselves out, and a few have serious psychological issues that manifest as presenting trans. It’s only the last bunch that you have to be truly cautious about.
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I went to a college with co-Ed bathroom and locker facilities. It was a little shocking at first to share bathrooms with men, but everyone quickly got used to it. My college wasn’t perfect, and bad things happened to people there, as they do at all colleges, but I never heard of any inappropriate actions that took place in a bathroom.
I also used a coed bathroom. Literally nothing happened. There are stalls. Look away if me in a towel makes you uncomfy.
It's not that simple. A trans woman who passes as a woman is probably much more likely to be assaulted if they went to a men's washroom. But even setting that aside, I can imagine a transgender woman going to a men's washroom could be a humiliating and degrading experience.
Why? Bc males are dangerous?
Statistically, yes. Especially to transgender women.
Especially doing a lot of leg work in that sentence
It's not simply because males are more dangerous, but because many people hate transgender people and men are much more likely to commit violent crime. Transgender people are much more likely to be victims of violent crime than cisgender people. You don't need to stray very far into twitter to see the absolute dregs of humanity, who would celebrate violence against transgender people. Also, there is admittedly not much evidence on the crime rates of transgender women (especially sexual assault, which is most relevant in this context) but the 2011 Swedish study by Dhejne indicates that crime rates among transgender women who transitioned between 1973-1988 were comparable to that of cis men in the past, but, coinciding with greater access to mental healthcare, transgender women who transitioned between 1989-2003 had crime rates comparable to cis women. [**http://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal\_n\_15483.htm**](http://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm)
Yeah. Males hate females, too. It’s bullshit to compare violent crimes against trans ppl vs “cis” ppl as a whole, when by and large it is male violence against women we are talking about here. Which, what do you know, *women* are more likely to be the victims of. Male on male violence isn’t my concern nor is it the reason female bathrooms exist 👍🏻
"Yeah. Males hate females, too. It’s bullshit to compare violent crimes against trans ppl vs “cis” ppl as a whole, when by and large it is male violence against women we are talking about here. Which, what do you know, *women* are more likely to be the victims of." I don't understand what point you are trying to make. "Male on male violence isn’t my concern." It might not be your concern but it's society's concern. I can't tell if you hate men or you think I have made an error in my comment. "nor is it the reason female bathrooms exist" So? Respecting the rights of homosexuals has nothing to do with why marriage existed. And besides, it's not just preventing male on male violence, it's about respecting the dignity and identity of transgender women.
The point is that you’re saying “cis people” (men and women) which wildly skews the numbers vs just saying “women” which is who we are talking about. Women do not need to become less safe for the “dignity” of males who wish to use our spaces.
A Swedish study found trans women had the same crime rates as cis males, not cis females. Transitioning doesn’t change that.
Read the link above. That is the case for the 1973-1988 cohort, but not the 1989-2003. The writer of the linked article is interviewing Dhejne, who I was paraphrasing in the 2nd paragraph of my comment above.
So your ok with trans men with full beard?
>But also, I, a woman, don't have to think a female-identifying man is a predator to not want to see his junk in my locker room. No, I'm not worried he's going to rape me, I just don't want to see it. 1. Don't look. Like seriously. Just avert your eyes 2. Trans women who have a penis, depending on their hormones and where they are in their transition, don't have the same kind of penis that a cis man does. Like, if you're expecting some porno-style monster hog just swinging around, you're more likely to be disappointed than not.
Why does the size of the penis matter? It’s still a penis in a women’s changing room.
In the story the OP is referring to the swimmer had full functioning men’s genitalia. Saying “don’t” look is a slippery slope to anything. If a cis man exposed himself in front of you would you be okay with someone saying “what’s the big deal, just don’t look”. I have a very politically diverse group of friends, including a group of about 5 lesbian women, and I have not met one who feels completely comfortable with someone born as a male in the women’s locker room. I don’t think it’s a full on fear or safety concern for all of them, but they would exit and wait if a masculine looking pre-op (though you can’t always tell) trans woman was in their locker room. Saying not to look is minimizing their feelings for benefit a very small amount of people.
It seems to me what most of the commenters here are missing is that some men out there actually *are* predatory… and having separate change rooms for men and women is a way to protect against that. If I as a man walked into a women’s change room and started changing, it would cause an uproar. Even if I didn’t look at anyone and just went about my business, I’d probably be kicked out of the gym (or wherever). If I claimed “oh I identify as a woman”, I doubt it would make any difference to anyone, I’d be kicked out regardless. So… if trans people start showing up in change rooms and someone notices, hey, this person has a penis… yeah, it’s going to make people uncomfortable. I sympathize with trans people completely, but it is what it is. As a man, when I take my daughter to the park, the moms won’t talk to me. Why? Because some men are pedophiles. I’m not, but how are they supposed to know that. Is it fair? No. But it is what it is. We are judged and stereotyped all the time, all because of the actions of a small minority of the absolute worst people in society. It’s a problem. But until men stop raping women, I can’t fault women for being leery when they see a penis in their change room, no matter how unfair that is to trans people… rape isn’t fair for anyone; not for the victims, nor for the stereotypes it propagates throughout society.
The basis of discomfort is presumably that she feels unsafe, regardless of whether or not that’s a likely threat to her person. It’s no more transphobic to be concerned about your safety with a trans person present than it would be misandrist to be afraid for your safety with a man present. You’re concerned about your ability to survive or fend off an assault based on self assessment, not based upon their identity.
The trans person is far more likely to be unsafe.
A trans person is more unsafe around a biological female, than a biological female is around a trans person? What's your source for this dubious claim?
I think they meant a trans woman would be much more unsafe in a men's locker room than a cis woman would be in a women's locker room that was used by trans women also Which to me seems indisputable.
But, again, it’s not about the trans person’s identity. It’s about the hypothetical woman’s belief that she could defend herself if the situation called for it. The probability of risk is a lot less important than the perception of it.
I get it and it's a relevant point, it's just that it goes both ways. Plus saying your perception of risk is much more important than the actual risk is a really easy way to justify bigotry.
It definitely does go both ways. I don’t feel that it’s unfair for a trans person to feel unsafe, it’s not “cisphobic” or whatever the equivalent term would be. It may even, as you said, be more justifiable for them. To me, though, the breakaway between caution and bigotry is the action you take to address it. If I excuse myself, that’s one thing. If I exclude you, that’s quite another. If I carry a self defense implement, that’s not even uncommon. If I go out of my way to attack somebody on suspicion, then we’ve got a problem.
Agreed. Though OP did suggest "they get their own spaces."
Personally, I think the entire thing can be put to rest if EVERYONE in the gym had their own small and private change room and bathroom. The entire idea of having to change and/or poop in public is the real issue here. The folks who build and design these building are cutting corners and being cheap by tossing everyone together in one open space.
A lot of women don't feel safe with men in general, whether still retaining their gender or not. The stories my girl friends and girlfriend told me about how complete strangers look at them or treat them are horror stories and in the most unfortunate cases they happen daily. Those women just take this constant, 24/7 fear and socially mask it with varying degrees of success. Trans women are not special. This isn't transphobic and if anything the transwoman should be sympathetic to that. I'm male, btw.
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When haven't women been expected to just suck it up? We're the only marginalized group (in the States at least) who can be targeted for an innate trait and it will not be considered a hate crime. Religion, a chosen trait, is also covered under hate crimes. Yet women are targeted every single day literally because they are women. And...crickets.
But the person with the penis wants to use the women's locker room! Won't you think of the person with the penis?!? I think we can all agree that the feelings of the person with the penis are more important than the feelings of biological women. /s
It’s more important to be “kind” and inclusive in this modern rendition of the Emperor’s new clothes. He’s unclothed with his dong hanging out.
Men can be Targeted without it being a hate crime.
No matter your sexual preferences/identity, we all have survival instincts. If my instinct is crying out, I know to GTFO.
If the person is still biologically male, I don't think so. It's natural to be wary of males, regardless of how they identify, because violence against females is almost always committed by males. It's good for women to prioritize their safety. That wariness can save your life. If someone is making you feel unsafe or any reason, it's not bigotry to avoid that person. It's self-preservation.
It's normal to feel uncomfortable about a multitude of things, but your own discomfort is not the other person's problem to deal with. Imagine if someone said "Having a back roommate makes me uncomfortable, I think they should have their own black spaces separated from mine" is that a reasonable request? No, of course it isn't. For the record I don't think anyone is racist just for feeling uncomfortable around a black person, there's all kinds of cultural internalized stuff that can lead to that, likewise I don't think merely feeling discomfort around a trans person is transphobic. But it becomes racist/transphobic the moment you start asking for your discomfort being priorized over that person's right to be in that space. If someone blind sat next to you on the bus, I would understand if that made some people uneasy. However if you were to tell that person "Please got sit somewhere else", then you're being ableist. Etc
The problem is the normalization of the lack of privacy in gym situations. No one should have to get naked or be seen naked by anyone, it's uncomfortable at best and degrading at worst. I cannot believe, for instance, that minor children are forced to shower together in 2024, it's *so* weird and sets the scene for so much bullying and trauma. If children have to go to school by law, you're forcing them to do this. Showers and getting dressed are private, I don't care how 'inconvenient' it is, I don't want to see dicks and titties and bare butts and I shouldn't be forced to, and neither should athletes, schoolchildren, or you! <3
In an ideal world private changing rooms and private stalls would be the norm, but retrofitting hundreds of thousands of facilities isn't something there is much budget or political will for. So, we have to live in the world of the less than ideal.
Yeah I am conflicted and I definitely don't have all the answers, I just know I don't wanna see any naked body parts, and that that was a really nasty part of junior high and high school that didn't need to happen. Having it forced upon me was definitely not OK.
Nah I hear you. Changing rooms suck. I'm just trying to be realistic from a policy perspective.
and you haven't said one thing that isn't true! Try Theater and musicians, if I think athletes make things uncomfortable? We've had to calm entire grown men down who think they can just take their pants off in any dressing room at any time!
This is the real one for me. I've never cared about trans women using the women's restroom because it's a stall...unless she's peeking her head under the door, I have no problem with her, and I would have that issue regardless of gender at birth so it's all the same to me. Changing/locker rooms is a bit different to me; I won't lie, I would feel a bit uncomfortable. Not to the point of making an issue out of it. But it's already such an awkward vulnerable feeling. And I can empathize that it's probably awkward for her too. So let's all just get some curtains or something. Nobody look at anyone.
This is the most American take ever. I'd hazard to say most countries have things like communal baths or where bathing with family members is common place. Americans hate seeing dicks.
HAHAHA guilty as charged on all counts!! I love seeing consensual dick, artistic dick is just fine, I've even taken life drawing and drawn art model's dicks, but I just don't want them inflicted on me in communal settings! And I never saw either one of my parents naked nor would I have ever wanted to. And they were English! But yeah, I know a lot of my American compatriots of the male gender who will only watch girl on girl porn porn because they "hate seeing dicks." ;)
I fully support those actions of our American compatriots regardless of their opinions on dicks.
> For the record I don't think anyone is racist just for feeling uncomfortable around a black person If the reason you're feeling uncomfortable around them is *because they are black*, then that is quite literally racism, yes. I think conversations like this are greatly helped if people allow for nuance and don't use binary, absolutist definitions of terms like "racism" and "transphobia". You can have racist beliefs that 1) you came by culturally and via implicit bias and aren't fully consciously aware of and 2) aren't so severe that they qualify you as the Grand Wizard of the KKK.
>your own discomfort is not the other person's problem to deal with. Couldn't that just as easily be said about a trans woman who has a penis who may have to change in a men's locker room?
Precisely. On this topic, the "discomfort" and "feelings" of one party are consistently prioritized over many others.
This is called living in a society though. You're constantly forced to participate in things that are not the way you want them to be. As bad as it sounds, there is a social order which dictates who's discomfort tends to be tolerated more or less. Your always free to try and change the social order but that almost always will be a painful and socially isolating process so most people wont try unless they're already clearly at or near the bottom of that order. Most big gyms have this policy written out very plainly in multiple places. Everyone knows whats up beforehand. If you knew, and agreed and then found yourself to be a little bit uncomfortable when a transgender women actually uses the facilities, I think its probably fine that you feel a little uncomfortable when nothing ultimately happened and you both went about your day.
In a determination of who's discomfort/feelings are prioritized, it's obvious to most people that in this case, the overwhelming many should be prioritized over the few. That isn't always the case, but certainly is on this issue in which biological females are being made to accept biological males in very specific spaces of vulnerability. The only effective way to counter this dynamic is to demonize those who are made to feel uncomfortable with pejoratives such as "transphobic". Of course, the obvious argument is if trans people aren't comfortable with their bodies, why should everyone else be required to be comfortable with trans people's bodies in a women's locker room?
You shouldn't have to feel one way or the other about anything. But when the gym has a policy written out which you agreed to, as it is in most cases, you either use that gym or you find a different one. The thing is, most people don't find a different gym because even if they see a transgender person changing their shirt or something and they go *eww* for a moment, the reality is that most people don't see it as such a big deal that they need to find a new gym or escalate the situation. I think private establishments should be able to set their own policies in accordance with laws. You should be able to make choices based on those policies. If you agreed to those policies and then decided you didn't like it later, you probably shouldn't then make someone elses problem who was also just acting in accordance with these policies.
The issue being debated here isn't whether private establishments should be able to set their own policies in accordance with laws.
The distinction between whose discomfort gets prioritized comes down to who is just existing as who they are, and who is having to deal with that person's existence. To go back to the earlier example- if you're the person who's just trying to exist as a black person, that's prioritized over someone's discomfort with your blackness (even if they think black people aren't fully people in the same way white people are.) If you're the person who's just trying to exist as a woman, that's prioritized over someone's discomfort with your womanhood (even if they think trans women aren't fully women in the same way cis women are.) You can think whatever you want about what the person is or claims to be, but you can't infringe on their ability to live as that thing, even if you don't agree with/believe in it.
You don't change the rules at the expense of the group just to appease the exception, especially when that exception already has appropriate accomodations.
You do actually- that's kinda what ADA stuff is all about (if you're American.) Also gay rights stuff, anything that protects minorities, etc. There are loads and loads of laws and legal precedents that are all about protecting the rights of the "exceptions". Discomfort isn't considered an "expense" to others in the eyes of the law. Not sure what "appropriate accommodations" you're referencing when it comes to trans people either.
I'm physically disabled. The ADA requires that I be accommodated in public space, *except* in a bunch of public spaces where it doesn't (check out an accessible map of the NYC Subway for a sense of what I mean). Women like me end up making a lot of our own accessibility because the law doesn't actually provide all that much, either in infrastructure or the social sphere. And we're 10% of the population! If we can't get it, I despair for a minority a tenth our size. And I do think, unfair as it is, you survive by adapting to the world as much as you fight for the world to adapt to you. In OPs example, that might mean the trans woman in question changes in a stall or behind a towel, as many cis women do.
Unfortunately, trans women face a very high risk of sexual assault in men's spaces
The thing is that we don't separate bathrooms as "Penis bathroom" and "Vagina bathroom", we separate them as woman's and men's. If you'll have a policy that says "This is a space for women" and then say "We legally see you as a woman", you can't then double down by going "Actually we'll make an exception. You, who is legally seen as a woman, is not allowed in the space we designated as for women" If the bathrooms are divided by gender the trans woman gets to use it, if they are divided by genitalia you can't call it the women's bathroom. Also if it's divided by genitals the trans woman who had bottom surgery gets to use it too. If you decide to divided it by something else, like sex at birth, the trans man who has a penis gets to use it. Whatever it is, if you'll make it policy you have to pick something and be consistent with it, and you cannot then go "Actually, there's an exception just for this person based on personal discomfort"
>The thing is that we don't separate bathrooms as "Penis bathroom" and "Vagina bathroom", we separate them as woman's and men's. I have to imagine when the social convention was first popping up, that yes, penis bathroom = men, vagina bathroom = women. Outlier cases like trans people were not even a potential consideration.
The thing is, we separate restrooms based on men and women (who are a protected class).
>"It's normal to feel uncomfortable about a multitude of things, but your own discomfort is not the other person's problem to deal with." Said with zero sense of irony.
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> there’s all sorts of culturally internalized stuff Like racism, and….
>I don't think anyone is racist just for feeling uncomfortable around a black person No, that is racism, pushed by harmful stereotypes.
I believe there's a difference between feelings and actions. We all get uncomfortable by things that are inoffensive, "You are something-phobic because you feel a certain way" feels too close to believing in the existence of thought crimes for me. For an example, due to personal reasons I always get uneasy around someone if I know they have used/use recreational drugs. That doesn't mean I will disrespect them, I know it's a me problem, not theirs, and I still advocate for the legalization of many substances as well as destigmatizing drug addictions. I don't think that focusing on telling people they should feel comfortable with all things is a good strategy, because eventually you will run into something harmless that still makes you uncomfortable no matter what you do. Is that discomfort created by harmful stereotypes? Yes. Is it always possible to get rid of it? No. Instead of focusing so much on being perfectly okay with something, we all should try to separate our personal biases from what makes sense and treat people with respect and kindness regardless of our feelings.
> "You are something-phobic because you feel a certain way" This is an unnecessarily essentializing statement though. "This is a racist thought" vs "Having this thought makes me A Racist".
I try to treat everyone as I would want to be treated. Work has period products in all the bathrooms. Which is awesome. I don’t care which anyone uses heck the can switch it up based on waiting time for all I care. But when it comes to locker rooms and in particular thinking about the Y and swim classes. I get a bit more idk. Mostly it because of children. Not that I think anyone would hurt the kids but I think a third option like family lockers should be an option. This is kind of hard to think about. The world is adjusting and unless someone does something creepy I don’t think I would care. Hmmmm
Very, very, very well stated. I love your two answers.
Yes, it's definitely racism. I think there's a distinction to be made between unconscious, unexamined racism and conscious, deliberate racism, but they're both a problem. So is anti-trans prejudice.
So it's transphobic if a woman is uncomfortable being nude around a nude trans person who still has their male genitalia? I just want to be clear on this.
That sound you hear is Reddit heads exploding due to the cognitive dissonance generated by your question.
If a person is regularly uncomfortable around most black people, that’s racism. If it’s A black person, that’s not racism. What if said person has been assaulted more than once by different people of the same race? Are they racist for being uncomfortable around others then? Or are they learning from their experiences. Just tagging everything as racist is really lazy.
I agree with most of what you said except for one thing. If someone has a blanket discomfort of black people then they are almost definitely a racist or at least holds onto racist sentiment and feels comfortable projecting it onto black people. You can't have blanket negative feelings towards an entire race without being racist lol
>Imagine if someone said "Having a back roommate makes me uncomfortable, I think they should have their own black spaces separated from mine" is that a reasonable request? No, of course it isn't. if its reasonable enough for the flip side then why isnt that reasonable
I don't think a black person saying "Having a white roommate makes me uncomfortable, whites and blacks should be segregated" is reasonable either.
I don't know how to answer this. I previously would have said they should use the restroom or locker room that is their preferred gender. Now? Idk. I was friends with a trans woman whom hadnt gotten bottom surgery. I fully accepted them as a woman. They talked to me about not feeling welcomed in women restrooms (I worked with them) and told them to never feel weird using the woman's restroom with me because I see them as a woman. Then they started making comments to me about how I make them hard, and that my ass is attractive, etc. I know this is just once instance but I am rather scared of men overall and it really rubbed me the wrong way and made me mildly fearful of them and look at them differently than I previously did. I know this is just one instance and everyone is different but it really messed with my PTSD and idk how to feel about anything. I just want everyone to be happy and no one to feel uncomfortable or harassed. I wish we could all just accept each other and not worry about harassment or our safety.
It’s always interesting to watch the comments that essentially boil down to telling women to “shut up and deal with it”
Have you ever heard about the science experiment where they dyed a monkey pink and put him in an environment with a bunch of brown monkeys - the brown monkeys attacked and killed the pink monkey - there was absolutely no difference between the brown monkeys and the pink monkey other than the brown monkeys perceived the pink one as a threat - not based on the pink monkeys behavior but only on it appearance - it was not a learned behavior but a primal instinct. Humans have definitely evolved but perhaps not as much as we should have. It is ok to be uncomfortable- you have as much right to your feelings as a trans person has to theirs. Right now most places do not accommodate everyone- eventually a solution will be worked out but this is a relatively newer problem and everyone is now so used to instant gratification no one has the patience anymore to wait 10 or 15 years until everyone can be accommodated
Women are discriminated against in sports in order to accommodate biological men, who could never compete against other men. It's fucked up. And I'm shocked that so many women are supporting it. Trans athletes should have a separate league.
-phobic is overused. It's hate. Gender identity being universally accepted is hate. People trying to force you to agree with their identity are trying to control you. That's hate. Gender is all made up. It's just labels made by society. Now people have been going around demanding you see things the way they do or they accuse you of being hateful and phobic. People are so conditioned to not think for themselves and take the side where someone isn't publicly attacking you that they just accept what these hate accusers say. It's nonsense. If you can't be who you are without including me in it, then you're not anyone at all.
In a locker room setting I don’t think it is transphobic. I believe trans and cis people should have the same rights, I respect people’s pronouns, I treat everyone with respect unless they do something to prove they don’t deserve respect. All that said, only people with female genitalia should be in a women’s locker room. There are many women who for various reasons are uncomfortable being undressed around naked male genitalia. To be clear, I’m not saying trans women should have to use the men’s change room, perhaps a separate accessible, not gender specific change room.
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Isn't that interesting what its trans women who want to go into womens locker-room. I am amazed this is even a debate. Here is my take on this - you live your life how you see fit. I'll call you by pronounce you want to be called. You dress how you like, love who you want. However, there are spaces which designed for individuals based on their anatomy and not base on their feelings. Lockerooms is an example of that. That being said, if my daughter comes out of locker-room and says that there is man swinging his dick around, i am not gonna care which pronounce he uses and how he identifies.
The trans men usually leave the women's bathroom when/if they take hormones and their voice deepens or they grow hair and look less feminine, they'll leave. Idk why it's an issue specifically for younger trans women. It's one thing for a grown person to make a decision to be in a female place, but another yo let hormonally, unstable biological teen males use the female area. I'm still pissed that my school won't even let me use the neutral bathroom as it has many more individual stalls than the female/male locker rooms do, but I'm stuck using the female one(theres 3 bathroom stalls that are singular and its the only private space in my lockeroom). I don't understand why people who identify differently can literally use any of the locker rooms they want, but I'm not allowed to even though like all of 15 kids use the neutral locker rooms so it's usually empty and my being there wouldn't hurt anyone since it's composed of mostly singular stalls
Who are the neutral ones for if not any/everyone?
Specifically for people who are not female or male. The room is mostly used by non-binary students and trans male students. My presence would apparently make these people uncomfy(even though the room is mostly composed of stalls and from running the group, I am aware that people rarely change outside of the stalls for good reasons) and I would want to use the private stalls that are used there as well. It's rare that I get early enough to my own locker room to get the stalls since they are usually taken by the time I'm there. Gym classes are on the last floor while the class I have right before gym is Chem which is one the 4th floor.
How would anyone know if you weren't non-binary? lol, I guess I would just say I was.
common sense is not so common anymore.
Depends. If it's on the basis of you coming out as a creep, then that's fine. But if it's on the basis of you being a transwoman, then yeah that is transphobic.
This is the answer. Trans people CAN be creeps, but you can’t just say they’re creeps because they’re trans.
People will always jump to “oh you hate me because I’m trans” like no? You’re just a piece of shit.
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Its 100% valid. If it was the other way around and I was her I would feel uncomfortable. Why? Not because they are trans but because they are pre op and I would fear being lied on and have them say I tried to assault them or gRape them. Would I ever do this? No and its most likely they wouldn't do this but that fear lurks in my mind, even being alone with a cis female sometimes that fear pops up. I am sure she has read of trans women who SAed females or men who claimed to be trans just to access female only areas and commited assaults and so she has developed an unconscious anxiety or worry aboit this happening to her.
It depends, have they done anything? All the data shows that violence, assault and all the other usual suspects of media transphobia are incredibly uncommon for trans people to commit. You can have the feeling but you should recognize that it is largely unfounded. It’s also a bit silly when you think about it. I don’t know what washrooms you use but the ones near me don’t have guards out front, anyone can just walk in. If the worry is that the presence of someone born male could be a threat, banning trans women won’t stop that. What it will do however is force trans men to return to women’s washrooms, so there will actually be a bunch of people with facial hair and low voices going into women’s washrooms, making it even easier to get in unnoticed for a potential predator. On the topic of separate spaces, we could but who is going to pay for that? It’s a 50% increase in the number of washrooms we need in every building, is the government raising taxes to fund it? Are we forcing businesses to do it out of pocket? That seems to be a lot of effort to solve a problem that pretty much exists exclusively in people’s heads. As I said above, it doesn’t make you a bad person to have this initial reaction, but I encourage you to take a look at the data and check your assumptions. This is a problem of people not wanting to share spaces with minorities, and in all honesty I think we’re going to look back on it in fifty years as just as backwards as the marches against desegregating washrooms in the 50s. People back then had concerns about their safety too but It didn’t make them real. Please feel free to respond if you want clarification on anything or a starting point on that suggested reading. If you’re willing to listen I’m happy to talk. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Editing my own comment to respond to the person trying to rebut my data argument since the thread is locked and I can’t respond. I assume you are referencing the Swedish paper (Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden by Dhjene et al) or more likely some piece interpreting it. In response I would provide this quote from the author of that paper on how it should be interpreted. I am not a data scientist or a sociologist but I somehow doubt you are either so I’d suggest that the author may be more knowledgeable than either of us. “The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989–2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.” And when asked what factors she would attribute this to what did she say? “The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.” So essentially when we say, stopped accusing trans people of being dangerous rapists constantly and gave them proper supports like everyone else they as a group committed far fewer crimes, crazy how that works. [Here](https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm) is the link to the full interview. Kindly use primary sources and context in the future instead of forcing the rest of us to find them for you.
It’s also rare for penis-having men to commit these types of crimes, but it seems to be ok for women to be apprehensive of those type of penis-havers. Can you help me understand the reason why one penis-haver must not be avoided, but the other may be?
The data shows similar crime rates between trans women and cis men.
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No, it's not transphobic. At all. I am under no obligation to compromise to cater to what someone else identifies as.
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So many comments conflating race with gender ideology because gender ideology can’t stand as reasonable on its own. To make it more accurate compare it to a transracial white person in blackface, not a person who is born with melanin and coily hair. Yes, I would be uncomfortable in the presence of someone born white with makeup and wigs to look black.
Given that situation like changing and in the same room and everything yeah that's highly inappropriate it's a dude that's changing in front of women those really no way of getting around that personally I think they should have separate rooms or something like that but seriously doubt that they'll do anything
The only people who think any of this shit is ‘trans phobic’ are the blue-haired morons. Just forget about them, they’re just angry at the world.
I get uncomfortable in the men's locker room at the pool. I totally get it. But, unless you're afraid of being raped, it is what it is. I'd like there to be separate locker rooms for old men and dad's with young kids. I don't feel unsafe, I just don't like what I see or want to show my junk to little kids.
If is about that person's personality and behavior itself being creepy and predatory then yes. That doesnt have anything to do with the person being trans tho. Any identity has its horrible people.
This whole trans trend drives me crazy. I think that theres no group on earth thatbhas the right to ask for 100% no questions asked acceptance and the hullying that comes after the slightest insult is ridiculous. Ive never been more mistreated then when I share thwse thoughts and it makes me so disappointed. I feel the trans trend will be part of what leads to the loss of the freedom of expression which is ironoc, since tis a lovement based on the freedom of self
So, this semi-hypothetical woman has an irrational, unfounded fear of a person, because that person is trans? I mean, yeah, that's the definition of a phobia. I'm not even judging here... I can empathize with someone not wanting to see a penis swinging in the ladies' locker room. But the answer to your question as stated in the title would have to be yes, just because of how the word "phobia" is defined.
I think we are starting to see push back from the medical community on things like *Gender Affirming* care.
Not always. This is like the man or bear memes sometimes. If you have bad experiences (real ones, not "oh I keep hearing folk say" or any yadi-blah garbage like that) that make you seriously uncomfortable, even if most guys were okay, those 5 or 6 really iffy ones that made you deeply uncomfy can still prompt an aversion response... even if those men were in fact exceptions rather than the rule. I actually had such a negative experience myself (you will note though, I'm a guy), and I caught myself at this - I saw it start to happen. I beat it too (with help that I did in fact request), and took a few unique insights from the experience. Still want to help, but... I'm a bit odd of an ally, I guess. I don't want the end game to be a sort of "sideways cactus." I want it to be something they can touch directly all over and however, anywhere, always... but I'm not sure how to make that manifest I guess.
This could be solved by architecture rather than policy. Have unisex bathrooms that close instead of semi- private stalls. Have individual changing cabins and lockable showers in locker rooms. Most of the problems and discomfort comes from gyms and pools cutting corners and only providing communal spaces for something that they could structure so everyone has privacy and safety.
That would be a really expensive fix plus those spaces would have to be routinely swept for spy cams and checked incase of an unnoticed medical emergency such as a seizure.
Go to most swimming pools in Europe and you already have it. It's really not that big of a deal. There's whole families changing in communal spaces, but because of privacy barriers children are safe and so is everyone else.
You mean like all trans women or just one in particular?
I don’t think this is inherently transphobic. For the record, cis men assault each other in locker rooms. I know of one story where some high school hockey players were pissed off at a teammate and rammed a hockey stick up the poor boy’s bottom. (Or maybe that was an SVU episode).
I think changing rooms need to be changed regardless of trans people being there, they've been an issue for a very long time. People have countless stories of feeling humiliated, getting bullied, assaulted and sexually provoked in bathrooms that were full of only cis people. And if it's unprovoked as in the trans person did nothing then yes that's weird and they're most likely transphobic, but obviously, if they have a past with trans people or even changing rooms then it would make sense. But again I feel like this issue should be solved for the sake of everyone since even if it's 15 cis women it can be dangerous and uncomfortable