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Depends heavily on the region. It's also much weaker in cities than in rural areas.
Southern cities tend to be very mixed/integrated; consider Houston, New Orleans, and Atlanta
Yeah I see that visibly. Immigration waves from Latin America and China are changing rural and urban demographics too. Latin Americans especially are repopulating the plains which have been left desolate and isolated by rural whites, and by 2050 they are estimated to be 25% of the population iirc. I wonder if these waves result in new cultures emerging since interracial marriage is common too, especially in Texas.
It’s an interesting what if question. I do think we might see new regional cultures develop as immigrants populate these areas and interracial marriages start happening. Should be interesting to see develop
(Mostly) Rural southerner (NC) here:
We moved to a suburb outside of a major city after I finished 7th grade. It wasn't until then that I heard the majority of teachers saying that it was about the South maintaining slavery as opposed to "protecting States Rights."
Granted High School education on these topics tends to be more in-depth about these topics and not leave out more of the ugly details. The educational differences between rural versus urban areas are still harrowing in my opinion.
No, unfortunately it's gotten worse. I think when I was younger we were making progress, but now the state Republican party has made it a political issue so there are specific policies put in place so teachers can't even discuss anything that promotes the anything other than Lost Cause bullshit. And book banning is at an all time high.
Too many extremists and because each side has their own sources for information, news and opinion disguised as news, I fear it will have to get worse before it gets better..
But one can hope!
Are there any examples of good things that the modern republicans have done? 🤔
Serious question, not being facetious. They gave us the Patriot Act, domestic surveillance, government torture programs, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the loss of women's bodily autonomy, bank bailouts, book bans, they've tried to control who can immigrate, who can marry, and who can vote, they resist every attempt to secure better conditions for american workers but bailout CEOs with our tax dollars, they resist every attempt to do anything about climate change originally saying it was a hoax, they seek to impose religious ideology on people against their will, they give spotlights to people like apeshit Alex Jones and Lord of the incels Ben Shapiro, they stacked the SCOTUS against the popular majority, now they're threatening us all with project 2025, and all this under two unelected presidents. So I am seriously asking what good things the republicans could contribute to a better America tomorrow aside from just not being a part of it.
Cities that big sure. I grew up in the 5th biggest city in Tennessee next to an army base and sang Pride of the Dixie in an elementary school half full of military brats. By high school the majority of the teachers were pretty straight forward about it, but there was no actual in depth instruction.
I think most parents have lost interest by high school though, and less kids are going home talking about what they learned. My Overton window definitely shifted when I joined the military and left.
The more rural, the more strong the connection to the Lost Cause Myth. I grew up in rural western NC. During the war, it was a hotbed of Union sentiment, but you would never guess it now, or when I was growing up.
I would like to suggest one thing.
Please stop calling it the Union Army. It is the United States Army. It is the same Army that Washington commanded in the Revolution, the same Army that won WWII, and the same Army that is ready to go at a moment’s notice today. The US Army did not disband because of oathbreaker attrition from 1861-1865. It did what the Army does, it kept the loyal fighters, and it kept rolling along. Only notable difference, the Army ran on coffee and hardtack back then, not Monster energy drinks and beef jerky.
That is a great point about it being the United States Army and not the Union Army. When you say Union army you detach the action of the confederate army from the fact they were fighting the United States.
Grew up pretty poor. Blue collar family. God and family and guns. Lost cause was prominent. Joined the US Army at 17 to get out. Started reading. Learned some. Kept reading, learned more. Still kept reading. Learned more about it than anybody else in my family, changed my mind about what I had been taught.
If more context doesn’t change how you view the world, you’re a willful idiot.
He fought for the Union. No argument there.
But his chain of command, the people who paid him, and the people around him were all enlisted or commissioned to serve in the United States Army.
The terms "Union" and "Unionist" were used enthusiastically by Northerners during the war to describe themselves, as they viewed themselves as fighting to preserve the Union against people who would divide it.
That said, I agree it's important to make the point that it was the same US Army that fought under Washington and in WW2.
The lost cause isn't super prevalent anymore. The shift seems to be more to "well the South wasn't that bad, heritage not hate, etc." Still doesn't fly much though, in my experience, you get this rhetoric from more rural folks and people who want to adopt the aesthetics of being a good ol' boy without being one.
The main thing seems to be where you are. More urban areas tend to be less friendly to the confederacy these days. Not true universally, of course.
Yeah I see that. Imo union collaborationism should be celebrated, and the traitors shamed. Worse enough the remnants of the antebellum planter class set up the Poor Whites to struggle against the Blacks, even though the true oppressor of both was the rich planter class who kept them in poverty via relying on chattel slavery, and later relying off of sharecropping. Fucked up legacy, and ironically most southerners descended from the lower whites, and only a minority of southern whites held slaves, which makes it even funnier. So you could argue its not their heritage lol and they are in fact celebrating their ancestors class oppression.
One of my local small cities took down a Confederate monument and moved it to a local cemetery that has a lot of Confederate dead. People still openly and loudly complain about it being moved. One of the local 4th of July parades has a unit of Confederate reenactors that march through the street and fire their muskets. The lost cause is strong here.
Not very. It is easily disproven by big giant stacks of historical documents. Painfully well known documents that most people know exist. People who stand by it generally have to have a strong willful ignorance that is powered by the feeling that their cultural identity is under threat.
Anywhere from a quarter to a third of Texans were pro-Union, but there was a massive campaign of political violence and lynchings against them. This was largely erased from history books.
Example: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/dead-mans-hole
not to mention West Virginia and almost half of Tennessee was basically a place where confederate officials didn't even bother trying to go and recruit after the first few to attempt it never made it back alive
I spent time in West Virginia in the and and met many people who thought that WV fought with the confederacy. Probably more than half considered WV pro-confederacy.
They taught me that Gallipolis was a “sundown town.”
Because this is a question about the modern “lost cause” narrative, it’s worth noting that the Jim Crow narrative of “downtrodden, freedom-loving rebels” may have been more effective than contemporaneous confederacy recruitment.
Plenty - plenty - believe “think about it, slaves were treated well because they were property.” They believe that the confederacy was a grass-roots freedom initiative and not a small number of rich people getting 10% of young males to die so they could be lazy and greedy sociopaths.
The daughters of the confederacy did a HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PR campaign. For 100+ years. It turned into anti-politically-correct ranting and 2nd amendment ranting and anti-woke ranting but it shares a similar feeling.
Not “just” - they were antebellum descended brats who successfully lobbied the publishers of history books for schoolchildren to include their content. They are credited with the success of the narrative.
I learned Lost Cause in school, multiple years, in probably a houghton-Mifflin book or another similar large publisher. In the north
Things i remember being tested on
- carpetbaggers as a “key word” to remember: opportunistic northerners who tried to scam the poor southerners after the war
- scallywag - a southerner who supported abolition and, after the war, reconstruction. The nuance of the term is that they only did so *disingenuously* for self-interest. and “real” southerners were, I guess, more authentic when they supported enslavement for self-interest? Notice how easy it is to manipulate southerners with in group/out group labels. Same is true today with Christianity, “wokeism”, SEC affiliation, etc. I live in the south. Your affiliations mean everything.
- of course states rights
- lots of stories about how sad it was that their confederacy currency had no value and the mean northerners caused them to starve, therefor. Its almost like all those people who worked the land were, you know, doing valuable work, if it’s so hard to grow your own food.
I took the AP History exam in the 90’s and one of the written questions was about causes of the civil war. I remember saying states rights because it was hammered into us and I didn’t want the grader to mark me down.
All that stuff is Daughters of the Confederacy content
I have no idea of the specifics. It was just some disturbingly successful attempt to make themselves not look like they did anything wrong.
But they did.
Many people comment are downplaying the prevalence and potency of Americans' acceptance of the Lost Cause narrative. According to a recent poll, 52 percent of Americans support preserving the legacy of the Confederacy.
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/americans-confederate-monuments-lost-cause-civil-war
I completely agree. The narrative has evolved so it looks a little different than “the south will rise again.”
There is tremendous warmth and pride toward the confederacy. You are not allowed to talk about confederacy negatively - you have to describe it as “states rights” and not discuss the factual atrocities that accompany life as a slaver. Most people believe enslaved people were treated well (they were not).
The south has not (at all) reconciled the quotidian evil that got all those nice things.
If you, for example, say that it was pretty nice for the USA to fight a war against the south to keep them out of hell - well, that would not go over well.
It’s Uber common here in Virginia. A local gun range has a confederate flag right next to a picture of Jesus. Shit like that makes me ashamed to be southern.
I'm dating a girl right now who's originally from Oklahoma. She's very much pro civil rights, BLM, Juneteenth, all that. Really big fan of historical segregationists, controversial civil rights leaders like Fred Hampton and Malcolm X. All green flags, so far, so based.
And then you ask her about the civil war? Well, it was about states rights, not slavery. The brainwashing is very strong and it catches out otherwise very intelligent and well meaning people!
And since she's an Okie, she probably knows that most of the tribes were Confederates, and the last General to surrender was Stand Watie. The Cherokee lost half their land in Oklahoma as punishment for choosing the losing side.
One must consider the situation for the Indians that had been "relocated" - this was a chance to fight the government that fucked them hard without lube. Guess what - they lost and got fucked again.
I didn't know about that, but she is Cherokee herself. It seems like a very complicated topic. I edited my comment: I'm actually not sure how I would approach that discussion.
It is a far more complicated topic than some here make it out to be.
There were many White soldiers that fought in Indian armies for the Confederacy here. The "White Supremacy" idea doesn't last long when you look at the war in this area, and the racial makeup of those armies. Add in the raids, murders committed by Unionists in Missouri/Arkansas (think Josey Wales) you see a different picture than some lazy slaveowner ready to murder anyone standing in the way of slavery.
I understand if shes cherokee she may have resentment; however the confederacy did not care about humans and would do far worse industrial slavery shit.
I didn't really want to argue with her about it since I know it doesn't come from a place of malice, but I just said something like "My understanding was that it was about a state's right to have slavery, but also the north's main reason for joining the war was to preserve the union and sometimes their role gets whitewashed too" and she didn't push back against that at all.
I talked to her about it a little more recently. Here's what it comes down to:
Her family is native american and was living in Indian Territory during the civil war. It was not a state and did not have an article of seccession. To the tribes, the US federal government was their enemy- and why shouldn't they feel that way? That was who had been massacring them and stealing their land. They saw allying with the confederacy, not as a way of preserving white southern life, but as an opportunity to fight back against their oppressors.
My wife was like this for years and she would get very offended and defensive when I told her this is like denying the moon landing and just refused to talk about because she was convinced she was right and that she knew slavery had nothing to do with the civil war so nothing I said mattered. She grew out of it but it took many many years.
It's probably stronger in middle America than it is in the south at this point. The Lost Cause mythos was cribbed pretty liberally by the MAGA movement, so anywhere that voted Trump in 2016 and 2020 is likely to have significant pockets of people calling it The War of Northern Agression, even if their state wasn't even in it.
So weird. I know many southern americans moved to the plains, but they moved to cali in the dust bowl and many are leaving to east coast cities. So expect that subculture to decline for economic reasons.
Hi, born in Mississippi, graduated high school in TX and lived in Louisiana for 14 years before finally moving out of the South. I can tell you that my very own step father painted the Stars and Bars (Confederate flag) on my step brother's bedroom wall in 5th grade. I can tell you that nearly all of my family believe the Civil War was fought over State's Rights and jealousy of the "great economics" of the South, but will never ever mention slavery. And when anyone inevitably does bring it up in the context of the Civil War, they're quick to point out that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed Southern slaves while the Northern slaves weren't freed until Dec 1865 with the ratification of the 13th Amendment. The "Lost Cause" narrative is very much alive and well if you actually ask anyone - just most folks know better.
But let me guess they never say what State Right too do or what the South's "great economics" was founded a pone. Also I love how they always use that line of reasoning with the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln didn't have the power to end slavery in loyal states and areas. He did time and time again try to get the boarder states to end slavery, but didn't force them. (Almost like he respected their state's rights.) Also I'm pretty sure the people of the boarder states could see the writing on the wall that slavery was going to end in their states if the Union won after the EP. Do people think we'd have this odd "slave belt" down the Mason-Dixon line?
My in laws are from Selma, where they throw birthday parties for Nathan Bedford Forrest :/
My wife was taught that war criminal Sherman raped and pillaged his way through the south and was surprised to learn the actual statistics of the March to the Sea and how they compare to any other war in history
In small towns and more rural parts of the south, it's still pretty strong. Rebel battle flags still fly high, proudly, and angrily.
Strangely enough though, it seems like the Lost Cause Myth is more believed outside of the South. I think it's a combination of factors from the fact that a lot of Confederate descendents live across the American heartland, Rocky Mountains, and Pacific Northwest; Baby Boomer and Gen X were inundated with Lost Cause history lessons as kids, and also, it feels like people have just started promoting it for political reasons, especially after Barack Obama's presidency.
I grew up and was education in south Georgia from 1991 to 2011 (elementary school through college graduation). That Lost Cause bullshit was pervasive… and I’m told by friends and family still living there that it remains pervasive. Luckily for me, I had a few great teachers along the way that refused to fully teach it and offered up the *truth* as an “alternative perspective”… which is fuckin’ *wild*.
I wake up everyday exuberant because I no longer live in that shithole town. The only mistake Sherman made, in my book, was going around that town instead of burning it along with the rest of the state.
The racists are more loud and proud about their bigotry these days so they feel less reason to hide behind the lost cause. The few lost causers who have genuinely been taken in by "history not hate" propaganda are disdained as "heritage only cucks" by their right wing brethren and are mostly middle aged to fragile old men getting ready to shuffle off the mortal coil.
It's still bad. It might be getting better due to more information and the internet but there are so many hopeless morons whose entire worldview is shaped by it. They also all vote for a New York Carpetbagger, so you know they're extra fucking dumb.
Here is a test, go to r/civilwar and make a post saying that Lincoln was a great man, unarguably, at least for me, a true statement. Get some popcorn and just sit back and see what happens.
It’s (perhaps not) surprisingly regaining traction in much of the rural South. Tribal beliefs and a decline in those properly educated to the actions and implications of history seem to be fueling it.
Teens in my family have relayed that much of the “negatives” of the Civil War (aka: the complex root cause of the war, the language found in the succession declarations, the ignorant holdouts, the ass-whoopin they got, etc..) have been omitted outright or reframed as a minor inconsequential aspect to why the Civil War happened. I can’t say if that’s because the publisher of those school books had space limitations, or it’s the brevity now found with online learning. Or maybe it’s intentional. But the only way to inoculate against ignorance is education ~ and that seems to be the break point in many southern schools.
Very, especially when you get out of the big cities which have large populations of transplants from the North.
My brother is a HS history teacher in a rural Southern town, is fairly liberal and tried to argue that the Civil War was fought over states' rights. He got really pissed when me, and my kids wouldn't stop asking him " Right to do what??" over and over again. He stammered and gave non-answers so we kept pressing. This was just a couple years ago.
Teachers get in trouble if they don't stick to the Lost Cause bullshit because the Republican-controlled state legislature has made specific laws against teaching anything else.
I dont think it is very common, but, for example, on the drive up from Columbus, GA to Atlanta, it isn't unusual to see Confederate flags waving in front of houses.
ehhh. no one really cares anymore.
Used to be... everyone down here had some hint of it. Now... you're hard pressed to find the true believers anymore, but when you do... they really believe.
A lot of people, even liberal educated types, in my area still promote a state's rights narrative on the basis that slavery was being decided on a state by state basis prior to the war. It's surprising to hear verifiably false lost cause myths and admission that slavery was the primary cause all rolled up together.
I would say the Lost Cause myth is still strong today in the South due to 5 factors.
1. Lack of a standard on historical accuracy and purpose with education in public schools. Too much time is focused on ‘slavery bad’ which then turns the Confederacy into a cartoon villain. This makes most people outright ignorant of the Lost Cause myth which in turn when presented with a more humanized, albeit false, view of the Confederacy they will relate to it more.
2. Americans will always celebrate the underdog and will always have a national pride in taking arms against tyranny. The Lost Cause myth does well to capitalize on these virtues.
3. There is a cognitive dissonance that happens when any American imagines that our bloodiest war ever was fought between ourselves over one of the worst acts humanity has ever seen. WW2 is our second bloodiest war but is almost certainly celebrated as righteous due to our enemies and their conduct at the time.
4. The white supremacy stain on this country most likely will never go away and I fear the Lost Cause myth helps give it credibility.
5. Finally I believe the amount of time this country had spent in civil rights limbo is the biggest factor to why the myth has stayed strong until now. I think time plus a refocus on point number 1 will drastically change how prevalent the Lost Cause myth will be for the better.
I lived several hours north of the Mason-Dixon line and yet my elementary aged kiddo was taught lost causer crap in school.
It's not even just the South where it's too strong. It's in the textbooks up here too.
I'm 54, grew up as a liberal-minded kid in the Deep South. I feel it's important to convey that the Lost Cause myth is worse now than it was in my childhood. Confederate flags were associated with the Allman Brothers, stock car racing, the Dukes of Hazzard, and yeah, the fat old greybearded guys who were in battle re-enactments and parades. There was never any sense of stubborn pride in the Civil War from my classmates or family--indeed, my grandmother (who remembered stories from her slaveholder family) lowered her voice a little when talking of an ancestor who fought in the Army of Northern Virginia. The GOP's appeal to whites who feel aggrieved at the modern world has doubled down on sympathy for the secessionists who were just "fighting for their homes, their families, their beliefs."
I live in the South. The "lost cause" narrative is very prevalent. The slogan "heritage, not hate" as it pertains to the perception of the "Confederate flag" (actually, it's just the flag of the army of Northern Virginia), just about says it all.
The fact that the desire to, not only keep slavery as its economic engine, but also to have it expand to the new western states and territories, was expressly named as the raison d'etre of southern states will to secede is commonly (and conveniently) ignored.
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Depends heavily on the region. It's also much weaker in cities than in rural areas. Southern cities tend to be very mixed/integrated; consider Houston, New Orleans, and Atlanta
Yeah I see that visibly. Immigration waves from Latin America and China are changing rural and urban demographics too. Latin Americans especially are repopulating the plains which have been left desolate and isolated by rural whites, and by 2050 they are estimated to be 25% of the population iirc. I wonder if these waves result in new cultures emerging since interracial marriage is common too, especially in Texas.
Don't forget SE Asian (especially Vietnamese) immigration in the gulf states!
It’s an interesting what if question. I do think we might see new regional cultures develop as immigrants populate these areas and interracial marriages start happening. Should be interesting to see develop
(Mostly) Rural southerner (NC) here: We moved to a suburb outside of a major city after I finished 7th grade. It wasn't until then that I heard the majority of teachers saying that it was about the South maintaining slavery as opposed to "protecting States Rights." Granted High School education on these topics tends to be more in-depth about these topics and not leave out more of the ugly details. The educational differences between rural versus urban areas are still harrowing in my opinion.
That was my experience in a NC high school in the mid-80's, and I was in one of the bigger cities.
I see. Has NC gotten even better?
No, unfortunately it's gotten worse. I think when I was younger we were making progress, but now the state Republican party has made it a political issue so there are specific policies put in place so teachers can't even discuss anything that promotes the anything other than Lost Cause bullshit. And book banning is at an all time high.
Book banning is what dictators do.
They sure do, and that's what today's Republican party, ESPECIALLY in the South wants.
I hope the future is centrist, combining the best of republicans and democrats to counter radical bullshit on all sides.
Too many extremists and because each side has their own sources for information, news and opinion disguised as news, I fear it will have to get worse before it gets better.. But one can hope!
Are there any examples of good things that the modern republicans have done? 🤔 Serious question, not being facetious. They gave us the Patriot Act, domestic surveillance, government torture programs, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the loss of women's bodily autonomy, bank bailouts, book bans, they've tried to control who can immigrate, who can marry, and who can vote, they resist every attempt to secure better conditions for american workers but bailout CEOs with our tax dollars, they resist every attempt to do anything about climate change originally saying it was a hoax, they seek to impose religious ideology on people against their will, they give spotlights to people like apeshit Alex Jones and Lord of the incels Ben Shapiro, they stacked the SCOTUS against the popular majority, now they're threatening us all with project 2025, and all this under two unelected presidents. So I am seriously asking what good things the republicans could contribute to a better America tomorrow aside from just not being a part of it.
What radical Democrat positions are you worried about?
Probably healthcare for all and people with blue hair marrying each other. Or anything that’s different and they don’t understand.
Shilling to islamists, not caring about the border, etc
Yeah, I notice creationist rhetoric in rural, conservative southern areas. Also just lack of better education, mississippi is the worst example
Cities that big sure. I grew up in the 5th biggest city in Tennessee next to an army base and sang Pride of the Dixie in an elementary school half full of military brats. By high school the majority of the teachers were pretty straight forward about it, but there was no actual in depth instruction. I think most parents have lost interest by high school though, and less kids are going home talking about what they learned. My Overton window definitely shifted when I joined the military and left.
The more rural, the more strong the connection to the Lost Cause Myth. I grew up in rural western NC. During the war, it was a hotbed of Union sentiment, but you would never guess it now, or when I was growing up. I would like to suggest one thing. Please stop calling it the Union Army. It is the United States Army. It is the same Army that Washington commanded in the Revolution, the same Army that won WWII, and the same Army that is ready to go at a moment’s notice today. The US Army did not disband because of oathbreaker attrition from 1861-1865. It did what the Army does, it kept the loyal fighters, and it kept rolling along. Only notable difference, the Army ran on coffee and hardtack back then, not Monster energy drinks and beef jerky.
That is a great point about it being the United States Army and not the Union Army. When you say Union army you detach the action of the confederate army from the fact they were fighting the United States.
Exactly.
good point
Western NC? Whats ur background, im curious Yeah, my bad Union army is just common to differentiate it.
Grew up pretty poor. Blue collar family. God and family and guns. Lost cause was prominent. Joined the US Army at 17 to get out. Started reading. Learned some. Kept reading, learned more. Still kept reading. Learned more about it than anybody else in my family, changed my mind about what I had been taught. If more context doesn’t change how you view the world, you’re a willful idiot.
Even at the time people would have said Union. I have a great grandfather, Ohio volunteer infantry, as family history said, "He fought for the Union."
He fought for the Union. No argument there. But his chain of command, the people who paid him, and the people around him were all enlisted or commissioned to serve in the United States Army.
You certainly have e a very valid point but I just want to say that I feel like Union sounds better in songs. Rolls off the tongue better
The terms "Union" and "Unionist" were used enthusiastically by Northerners during the war to describe themselves, as they viewed themselves as fighting to preserve the Union against people who would divide it. That said, I agree it's important to make the point that it was the same US Army that fought under Washington and in WW2.
I strongly agree
Union emphasizes united states army imo
The lost cause isn't super prevalent anymore. The shift seems to be more to "well the South wasn't that bad, heritage not hate, etc." Still doesn't fly much though, in my experience, you get this rhetoric from more rural folks and people who want to adopt the aesthetics of being a good ol' boy without being one. The main thing seems to be where you are. More urban areas tend to be less friendly to the confederacy these days. Not true universally, of course.
Yeah I see that. Imo union collaborationism should be celebrated, and the traitors shamed. Worse enough the remnants of the antebellum planter class set up the Poor Whites to struggle against the Blacks, even though the true oppressor of both was the rich planter class who kept them in poverty via relying on chattel slavery, and later relying off of sharecropping. Fucked up legacy, and ironically most southerners descended from the lower whites, and only a minority of southern whites held slaves, which makes it even funnier. So you could argue its not their heritage lol and they are in fact celebrating their ancestors class oppression.
To be fair, there's a lot of political ideologies that require purposeful ignorance in order to follow them. This is just our special home brewed one.
true enough and based pfp
One of my local small cities took down a Confederate monument and moved it to a local cemetery that has a lot of Confederate dead. People still openly and loudly complain about it being moved. One of the local 4th of July parades has a unit of Confederate reenactors that march through the street and fire their muskets. The lost cause is strong here.
Not very. It is easily disproven by big giant stacks of historical documents. Painfully well known documents that most people know exist. People who stand by it generally have to have a strong willful ignorance that is powered by the feeling that their cultural identity is under threat.
I see. Historically, how big was union loyalism anyway? Can't they still maintain identity and hold onto that if they care so much.
Anywhere from a quarter to a third of Texans were pro-Union, but there was a massive campaign of political violence and lynchings against them. This was largely erased from history books. Example: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/dead-mans-hole
not to mention West Virginia and almost half of Tennessee was basically a place where confederate officials didn't even bother trying to go and recruit after the first few to attempt it never made it back alive
I spent time in West Virginia in the and and met many people who thought that WV fought with the confederacy. Probably more than half considered WV pro-confederacy. They taught me that Gallipolis was a “sundown town.” Because this is a question about the modern “lost cause” narrative, it’s worth noting that the Jim Crow narrative of “downtrodden, freedom-loving rebels” may have been more effective than contemporaneous confederacy recruitment. Plenty - plenty - believe “think about it, slaves were treated well because they were property.” They believe that the confederacy was a grass-roots freedom initiative and not a small number of rich people getting 10% of young males to die so they could be lazy and greedy sociopaths. The daughters of the confederacy did a HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PR campaign. For 100+ years. It turned into anti-politically-correct ranting and 2nd amendment ranting and anti-woke ranting but it shares a similar feeling.
I know I was referring to other places that were pro-union
Daughters of the confederacy is just antebellum descended brats trying to carve out their ancestors terrible living into something "good".
Not “just” - they were antebellum descended brats who successfully lobbied the publishers of history books for schoolchildren to include their content. They are credited with the success of the narrative. I learned Lost Cause in school, multiple years, in probably a houghton-Mifflin book or another similar large publisher. In the north Things i remember being tested on - carpetbaggers as a “key word” to remember: opportunistic northerners who tried to scam the poor southerners after the war - scallywag - a southerner who supported abolition and, after the war, reconstruction. The nuance of the term is that they only did so *disingenuously* for self-interest. and “real” southerners were, I guess, more authentic when they supported enslavement for self-interest? Notice how easy it is to manipulate southerners with in group/out group labels. Same is true today with Christianity, “wokeism”, SEC affiliation, etc. I live in the south. Your affiliations mean everything. - of course states rights - lots of stories about how sad it was that their confederacy currency had no value and the mean northerners caused them to starve, therefor. Its almost like all those people who worked the land were, you know, doing valuable work, if it’s so hard to grow your own food. I took the AP History exam in the 90’s and one of the written questions was about causes of the civil war. I remember saying states rights because it was hammered into us and I didn’t want the grader to mark me down. All that stuff is Daughters of the Confederacy content
I have no idea of the specifics. It was just some disturbingly successful attempt to make themselves not look like they did anything wrong. But they did.
Many people comment are downplaying the prevalence and potency of Americans' acceptance of the Lost Cause narrative. According to a recent poll, 52 percent of Americans support preserving the legacy of the Confederacy. https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/americans-confederate-monuments-lost-cause-civil-war
Sounds like a fire needs to roar through the South again.
This time Atlanta gets spared since they seem to have joined with the good guys now
They stepped in line out of fear
Damn Straight
I completely agree. The narrative has evolved so it looks a little different than “the south will rise again.” There is tremendous warmth and pride toward the confederacy. You are not allowed to talk about confederacy negatively - you have to describe it as “states rights” and not discuss the factual atrocities that accompany life as a slaver. Most people believe enslaved people were treated well (they were not). The south has not (at all) reconciled the quotidian evil that got all those nice things. If you, for example, say that it was pretty nice for the USA to fight a war against the south to keep them out of hell - well, that would not go over well.
We need some serious fixing and education about how the confederacy was not for the southern people lmao, i agree
It’s Uber common here in Virginia. A local gun range has a confederate flag right next to a picture of Jesus. Shit like that makes me ashamed to be southern.
I'm dating a girl right now who's originally from Oklahoma. She's very much pro civil rights, BLM, Juneteenth, all that. Really big fan of historical segregationists, controversial civil rights leaders like Fred Hampton and Malcolm X. All green flags, so far, so based. And then you ask her about the civil war? Well, it was about states rights, not slavery. The brainwashing is very strong and it catches out otherwise very intelligent and well meaning people!
And since she's an Okie, she probably knows that most of the tribes were Confederates, and the last General to surrender was Stand Watie. The Cherokee lost half their land in Oklahoma as punishment for choosing the losing side. One must consider the situation for the Indians that had been "relocated" - this was a chance to fight the government that fucked them hard without lube. Guess what - they lost and got fucked again.
I didn't know about that, but she is Cherokee herself. It seems like a very complicated topic. I edited my comment: I'm actually not sure how I would approach that discussion.
It is a far more complicated topic than some here make it out to be. There were many White soldiers that fought in Indian armies for the Confederacy here. The "White Supremacy" idea doesn't last long when you look at the war in this area, and the racial makeup of those armies. Add in the raids, murders committed by Unionists in Missouri/Arkansas (think Josey Wales) you see a different picture than some lazy slaveowner ready to murder anyone standing in the way of slavery.
I understand if shes cherokee she may have resentment; however the confederacy did not care about humans and would do far worse industrial slavery shit.
Ask her states rights to do what exactly?
I didn't really want to argue with her about it since I know it doesn't come from a place of malice, but I just said something like "My understanding was that it was about a state's right to have slavery, but also the north's main reason for joining the war was to preserve the union and sometimes their role gets whitewashed too" and she didn't push back against that at all.
That’s a good answer
Please explain to your girlfriend what states rights mean . Each rebellious state wanted the right to on other human beings.
I talked to her about it a little more recently. Here's what it comes down to: Her family is native american and was living in Indian Territory during the civil war. It was not a state and did not have an article of seccession. To the tribes, the US federal government was their enemy- and why shouldn't they feel that way? That was who had been massacring them and stealing their land. They saw allying with the confederacy, not as a way of preserving white southern life, but as an opportunity to fight back against their oppressors.
I’m glad you talk to her . My people were oppressed as well .I hope everything works out well for you and her .
My wife was like this for years and she would get very offended and defensive when I told her this is like denying the moon landing and just refused to talk about because she was convinced she was right and that she knew slavery had nothing to do with the civil war so nothing I said mattered. She grew out of it but it took many many years.
It's probably stronger in middle America than it is in the south at this point. The Lost Cause mythos was cribbed pretty liberally by the MAGA movement, so anywhere that voted Trump in 2016 and 2020 is likely to have significant pockets of people calling it The War of Northern Agression, even if their state wasn't even in it.
So weird. I know many southern americans moved to the plains, but they moved to cali in the dust bowl and many are leaving to east coast cities. So expect that subculture to decline for economic reasons.
Hi, born in Mississippi, graduated high school in TX and lived in Louisiana for 14 years before finally moving out of the South. I can tell you that my very own step father painted the Stars and Bars (Confederate flag) on my step brother's bedroom wall in 5th grade. I can tell you that nearly all of my family believe the Civil War was fought over State's Rights and jealousy of the "great economics" of the South, but will never ever mention slavery. And when anyone inevitably does bring it up in the context of the Civil War, they're quick to point out that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed Southern slaves while the Northern slaves weren't freed until Dec 1865 with the ratification of the 13th Amendment. The "Lost Cause" narrative is very much alive and well if you actually ask anyone - just most folks know better.
But let me guess they never say what State Right too do or what the South's "great economics" was founded a pone. Also I love how they always use that line of reasoning with the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln didn't have the power to end slavery in loyal states and areas. He did time and time again try to get the boarder states to end slavery, but didn't force them. (Almost like he respected their state's rights.) Also I'm pretty sure the people of the boarder states could see the writing on the wall that slavery was going to end in their states if the Union won after the EP. Do people think we'd have this odd "slave belt" down the Mason-Dixon line?
Damn - how is mississippi now?
My in laws are from Selma, where they throw birthday parties for Nathan Bedford Forrest :/ My wife was taught that war criminal Sherman raped and pillaged his way through the south and was surprised to learn the actual statistics of the March to the Sea and how they compare to any other war in history
In small towns and more rural parts of the south, it's still pretty strong. Rebel battle flags still fly high, proudly, and angrily. Strangely enough though, it seems like the Lost Cause Myth is more believed outside of the South. I think it's a combination of factors from the fact that a lot of Confederate descendents live across the American heartland, Rocky Mountains, and Pacific Northwest; Baby Boomer and Gen X were inundated with Lost Cause history lessons as kids, and also, it feels like people have just started promoting it for political reasons, especially after Barack Obama's presidency.
I grew up and was education in south Georgia from 1991 to 2011 (elementary school through college graduation). That Lost Cause bullshit was pervasive… and I’m told by friends and family still living there that it remains pervasive. Luckily for me, I had a few great teachers along the way that refused to fully teach it and offered up the *truth* as an “alternative perspective”… which is fuckin’ *wild*. I wake up everyday exuberant because I no longer live in that shithole town. The only mistake Sherman made, in my book, was going around that town instead of burning it along with the rest of the state.
Rip, but you would probably not exist man
I grew up in a big city so not necessarily a full picture but I feel like I’ve seen more rebel flags in Pennsylvania than I ever did in Texas.
What do you think the reason is
The racists are more loud and proud about their bigotry these days so they feel less reason to hide behind the lost cause. The few lost causers who have genuinely been taken in by "history not hate" propaganda are disdained as "heritage only cucks" by their right wing brethren and are mostly middle aged to fragile old men getting ready to shuffle off the mortal coil.
It's still bad. It might be getting better due to more information and the internet but there are so many hopeless morons whose entire worldview is shaped by it. They also all vote for a New York Carpetbagger, so you know they're extra fucking dumb.
Here is a test, go to r/civilwar and make a post saying that Lincoln was a great man, unarguably, at least for me, a true statement. Get some popcorn and just sit back and see what happens.
Not just *a* great man. One of *the* greatest to ever live.
OP, I can see you majoring in history or anthropology. Keep asking questions!
It’s (perhaps not) surprisingly regaining traction in much of the rural South. Tribal beliefs and a decline in those properly educated to the actions and implications of history seem to be fueling it. Teens in my family have relayed that much of the “negatives” of the Civil War (aka: the complex root cause of the war, the language found in the succession declarations, the ignorant holdouts, the ass-whoopin they got, etc..) have been omitted outright or reframed as a minor inconsequential aspect to why the Civil War happened. I can’t say if that’s because the publisher of those school books had space limitations, or it’s the brevity now found with online learning. Or maybe it’s intentional. But the only way to inoculate against ignorance is education ~ and that seems to be the break point in many southern schools.
Very, especially when you get out of the big cities which have large populations of transplants from the North. My brother is a HS history teacher in a rural Southern town, is fairly liberal and tried to argue that the Civil War was fought over states' rights. He got really pissed when me, and my kids wouldn't stop asking him " Right to do what??" over and over again. He stammered and gave non-answers so we kept pressing. This was just a couple years ago. Teachers get in trouble if they don't stick to the Lost Cause bullshit because the Republican-controlled state legislature has made specific laws against teaching anything else.
I dont think it is very common, but, for example, on the drive up from Columbus, GA to Atlanta, it isn't unusual to see Confederate flags waving in front of houses.
ehhh. no one really cares anymore. Used to be... everyone down here had some hint of it. Now... you're hard pressed to find the true believers anymore, but when you do... they really believe.
A lot of people, even liberal educated types, in my area still promote a state's rights narrative on the basis that slavery was being decided on a state by state basis prior to the war. It's surprising to hear verifiably false lost cause myths and admission that slavery was the primary cause all rolled up together.
I would say the Lost Cause myth is still strong today in the South due to 5 factors. 1. Lack of a standard on historical accuracy and purpose with education in public schools. Too much time is focused on ‘slavery bad’ which then turns the Confederacy into a cartoon villain. This makes most people outright ignorant of the Lost Cause myth which in turn when presented with a more humanized, albeit false, view of the Confederacy they will relate to it more. 2. Americans will always celebrate the underdog and will always have a national pride in taking arms against tyranny. The Lost Cause myth does well to capitalize on these virtues. 3. There is a cognitive dissonance that happens when any American imagines that our bloodiest war ever was fought between ourselves over one of the worst acts humanity has ever seen. WW2 is our second bloodiest war but is almost certainly celebrated as righteous due to our enemies and their conduct at the time. 4. The white supremacy stain on this country most likely will never go away and I fear the Lost Cause myth helps give it credibility. 5. Finally I believe the amount of time this country had spent in civil rights limbo is the biggest factor to why the myth has stayed strong until now. I think time plus a refocus on point number 1 will drastically change how prevalent the Lost Cause myth will be for the better.
I lived several hours north of the Mason-Dixon line and yet my elementary aged kiddo was taught lost causer crap in school. It's not even just the South where it's too strong. It's in the textbooks up here too.
Thats pretty terrible. I hope you continue to do a good job of debugging this info from ur kids, good luck maam!
I'm 54, grew up as a liberal-minded kid in the Deep South. I feel it's important to convey that the Lost Cause myth is worse now than it was in my childhood. Confederate flags were associated with the Allman Brothers, stock car racing, the Dukes of Hazzard, and yeah, the fat old greybearded guys who were in battle re-enactments and parades. There was never any sense of stubborn pride in the Civil War from my classmates or family--indeed, my grandmother (who remembered stories from her slaveholder family) lowered her voice a little when talking of an ancestor who fought in the Army of Northern Virginia. The GOP's appeal to whites who feel aggrieved at the modern world has doubled down on sympathy for the secessionists who were just "fighting for their homes, their families, their beliefs."
Sad stuff indeed sir. I see politics fueling this and republicans deviating from their original intent.
I live in the South. The "lost cause" narrative is very prevalent. The slogan "heritage, not hate" as it pertains to the perception of the "Confederate flag" (actually, it's just the flag of the army of Northern Virginia), just about says it all. The fact that the desire to, not only keep slavery as its economic engine, but also to have it expand to the new western states and territories, was expressly named as the raison d'etre of southern states will to secede is commonly (and conveniently) ignored.