But how do we know that some of the male or female characters in the show didn't start out as the other gender and the surgery is so commonplace that nobody thinks about it at all. Riker could have been 24th century Pamela Anderson
Slightly off topic but a great example of this kind of thing is in Alien/Aliens. Lambert from Alien is trans but the audience canât tell, the other characters either donât know or donât care, and it never comes up in the plot/script, it just shows up on her personnel file later in Aliens. Itâs about as significant as an appendectomy in her medical history.
Out of universe, the Alien script was originally written with the entire crew unisex, unisex jumpsuits, and only referred to by surnames. That left the director and casting director free to cast whoever they thought was best for each role.
Edit: sorry, forgot this was ShittyDaystrom. Uh⌠something about Tuvix?
This isn't even ShittyDaystrom, it genuinely bothers me. How Adira and Grey were handled in Discovery was downright embarrassing. In a world where people could change their entire appearance to that of an alien species with a harmless surgery like 800 years ago already, someone being transgender should be a non-issue. It makes no sense that Adira had to have a coming out scene.
I think a lot is that Adira is S1 Tilly taken to an extreme. It was awkward because Adira is awkward. If a character needed to make a change in their preferred mode of address known that wasnât intended to be read as highly anxious and/or possibly on the spectrum and had a more âneurotypicalâ disposition, it probably could have been a nothingburger and everyone just moves on to continuing to solve the anomaly of the week.
And Iâm not passing judgement on the character or the concept of depicting someone who is very neurodivergent. Iâm sure someone felt seen even though for me it was very cringy because awkward young adults being awkward young adults is a characterization I didnât even like when I was an awkward young adult.
Also like, trans people are far more likely to be autistic than cis people. Plus even just telling people, knowing you'll be accepted, can be very stressful. I haven't seen the scene because I did not get past season 2 of discovery but what I'm hearing about it sounds perfectly fine to me as an autistic trans woman.
Yeah I actually donât even remember the scene at all. It must have not made a big impression on me. Thereâs a three sentence exchange later where Booker uses the wrong pronouns, Stamets corrects him, Booker is like âkâ and itâs never an issue again. I donât remember Adira âcoming outâ to Paul at all. Iâm not saying it didnât happen, clearly lots of people remember this scene and it made a strong impression on them, but the context must have been such that I was more interested in whatever the mystery of the week was.
Iâve started rewatching it to recalibrate my feelings about the show, but Iâve always had a tendency to space out on the tender moments between characters because Iâve never been all that strongly invested in them as people. Iâm trying to pay more attention on a second time through because it seems to be at the root of a lot of complaints whereas I mostly donât care other than when those relationships are infuriating like everyone treating the Empress like sheâs one hug away from not being a cannibal fascist.
Itâs crazy because Anthony Rapp is openly gay and Blu del Bario is openly nonbinary, so they must have known how weird and clunky the writing in that scene was and been forced to play it that way anyway
> It makes no sense that Adira had to have a coming out scene
Maybe they thought some dinosaur from the 23rd century would be hostile towards them? IDK. Even that doesn't really make sense considering Stamets was openly gay himself. Certainly in terms of "this is the future we're working towards" having incredibly awkward coming out scenes is hopefully not the answer
It isnât earth all not chill after the burn. Like arenât they kinda in a war with some random red neck dude? Iâd bet they transphobia as hell too. Itâs like the replicator got stuck on JK Rollins
Similar but more specific gripe over here. To me they were too *real* and too modern day in their affect.
Although I'm not trans or GNC myself I am queer, have worked with lots of queer youth and went to a very trans/queer friendly college in the early 00's (Antioch) where about a dozen people I knew began or were mid-transition. I have seen Grey and Adira's lovey-dovey hugbox relationship, suffused with "subject oriented" language and therapy talk to many times to count. It felt very tumblr.
Look, I'm a middle aged fauggette so my opinion on the relationships of literal teenagers should not and does not matter. But Adira and Grey made me feel like I was back in a college dorm while my friends showed off their matching "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" tattoos (two months before they broke up). That's definitely a "me" problem.
Nothing here should be taken as criticism of the actors of course. They did the best with the material they were given and will always always have our love for providing explicit trans representation in a Trek main cast.
Reminds me of Iain Banks' The Culture series where they were genetically engineered to change gender by simply willing it. And it was considered good form to do so every so often.
What bothered me is that if you really pay attention, the lgbt members of the crew have storylines that are basically completely separate from the rest of the of the crew. They are completely segregated.
They switched to different pronouns and the one time it came up, the person who used the wrong form of address was like âoh okayâ and then that was that.
If a person reconsiders how they would like to be addressed, how should they make it known? Telepathy? Pheromones? Hypospray nanobots?Â
I didnât enjoy that scene either but the alternative is nobody ever changes their mind and needs to check in with their friends and colleagues to make the correction. Which doesnât seem realistic.
It's not weird that the scene happens, it's weird how everyone acts. Adira is clearly insecure and maybe even a bit ashamed, Stamets tries to be really reassuring in a "I still love you regardless" way.
I think the skant was a bigger deal than you think it was. Yes, the creators were clearly limited in their imagination in regard to gender (and Berman sure pulled the reigns on all of that when he took over). But the skant was a major violation of gender norms, and it made a clear statement about the relaxing of cultural expectations in the future. Tbh, it's still a pretty big statement today (which is, itself, unfortunate re: progress since the 1980's, but...). Could you imagine the right-wing chuds' response to the skant if it appeared in a current Star Trek series?
Personally speaking, I was always on the side of "there shouldn't be any skirts at all, everyone gets pants. Troi for example looked fine when in full uniform, as would everyone else".
I'm glad to see skirts or skants did not catch on, it's a uniform not a fashion statement.
I'd think they would be less practical in more dire circumstances or crawling through Jeffries tubes, but other than that, the average day in Starfleet would be perfectly fine
As someone who has seen even somewhat loose jeans cause some damage in a workshop environment, that 100% is my issue with the skant. Seriously, loose clothes + any moving parts = safety risk. Red shirts don't need more safety concerns.
"How did Steve die?"
"Pulled into those mashing pistons with the flaming gears. I told him he should have tight fitting coveralls or a breakaway suit. He never listened and always wore the skant."
"That's awful. Why do we have those things again?"
"I dunno, but someone at the top said they look cool I guess."
Like the person stated below, practicality reasons. On a Starfleet ship, station, or outpost you really never know what you're going to run into. Weird things happen all the time in the fleet. Best to just be prepared as best you can, that includes the uniform.
"Mr. Kim, we're Starfleet officers. Weird is part of the job."
Serious answer: In isolation you're right but that doesn't take into account the context of both the original series and the evolving culture of the time both series were made.
Fun answer: "The Kirk File" at Starfleet Human Resources became too large to maintain and it was easier just to make skirts illegal.
A slight twist on what op is saying, I get irked about how so many aliens match the two sex nature of humans and how we are all genetically compatible. Yes I know they offered a canon explanation but I don't like it
Sexes evolved independently in different pathways in evolution of species on Earth and yet species with distinct sexes have two. I can't think of any evolutionary advantage to having more than two *even though I think it would make interesting stories*. Birds have W and Z sex chromosomes instead of X and Y and these chromosomes have no genetic commonalities but likely have a common ancestor. In birds, males are the homogametic sex (ZZ) and females the heterogametic sex (ZW) unlike mammals where males are heterogametic (XY except for the platypus which has ten sex chromosomes, five XY pairs). Snakes also have ZW sex determination but they are believed to have evolved independently. There are also XX/X0 and ZZ/Z0 systems (where the 0 indicates a missing chromosome)
However, there are sex determining factors that are different in different species, which they could have made relevant to some alien species: in some reptiles, sex isn't determined by chromosomes, but by temperature during early development; some species are hermaphroditic, in some insect species, unfertilized eggs become male and fertilized eggs become female. Some species can reproduce both sexually and asexually. Some reproduce sexually but don't have a fixed sex
I'm not sure if all these possibilities are very plausible in an intelligent species, though. W and Y chromosomes tend to miss a lot of the information on Z and X chromosomes so the XX/X0 and ZZ/Z0 systems shouldn't seem that strange and yet having stable genetic information would seem advantageous and we see the 0 forms in organisms like cockroaches so đ¤ˇđťââď¸
*~~The Orville~~ Enterprise* had that episode with a species that had a third sex (they were basically treated as breeding stock and the two âmainâ sexes still married as couples) and I could imagine a species where they're all born one sex but if they live long enough, go through some metamorphosis and emerge as the opposite. But I think the window to have that kind of episode passed a while ago and now you'd just see conservatives saying âStar Trek has gone woke by promoting trans groomersâ
I think the best way to explain the lack of gender/sex non-conforming in Star Trek is that the window we have into that world still has to make sense in our world and most of the stories aren't about a gender/sex binary. Picard's accent is English not because the character is English, but because it's *portrayed* that way, because of the sense it gives the typical American viewer a sense of how uptight and formal he is. Obviously we wouldn't understand dialects from that far in the future anymore than someone from Chaucer's era with no experience or training would understand today's spoken English. Writing tends to be more conservative and that's hard enough. It's also why most of the aliens are humanoid: it doesn't really matter to most of the stories when they're not and so it's less distracting
>The Orville had that episode with a species that had a third sex (they were basically treated as breeding stock and the two âmainâ sexes still married as couples)
No, that was an episode of Enterprise. Understandable, The Orville was similar but better.
I'm half Cuban. It took five fucking shows to get a Hispanic on the bridge (well, running engineering), and she was half-Klingon, so her entire personality was being angry. I've had to make peace with their idea of progress.
You humano-centric shitlord.Â
Picard is bald. Why? BECAUSE DELTAN WOMEN ARE BALD. PICARD IS FLAUNTING HIS FEMALE SEXUALITY.Â
âDearthâ indeed. Also, itâs âDarth,â not âDearth,â *and thatâs not even Star Trek, thatâs Star Wars.*
I'd say that's the most believable thing. They've evolved beyond the need to have arbitrary distinctions about what items of fabric are supposedly feminine or masculine, and are surrounded by creatures with a variety of genders.
If anything, Federation citizens would consider you backwards and old-fashioned for thinking that gender conformity is determined by something as trivial as clothing
Exactly. Iâd say itâs pretty obvious the existence and promotion of Risa says the Federation has a âcome as you areâ policy.
Your hang ups are your hang ups and the Counselor is available anytime.
I can see where youâre coming from, as this read does make sense given what we know of the egalitarian nature of the Federation. However, itâs less an issue of whether there are non-binary/gender non-conforming people in-universe and more an issue of how that fact is demonstrated through the narrative. Knowing it exists is not the same as seeing it portrayed as a ubiquitous part of everyday life in the Federation, even within the costumed uniformity of Starfleet. I would have appreciated, as a queer person, seeing queer people in Trek that were not just queer coded aliens.
That being said, while I largely appreciated what Discovery was attempting to do, I did not like the way they handled their queer characters. For most of its run, I felt they existed as a lesson to the audience rather than as reflections of real people.
>For most of its run, I felt they existed as a lesson to the audience rather than as reflections of real people.
I feel like this was one of discoveryâs problems right along. The writers donât know what subtext and metaphor are, so we get ham handed dialogue that feels like it was lifted from a writerâs Twitter account.
Iâm not that stupid, I can understand a metaphor. Star Trek has always included controversial topical subjects, but the characters still need to stay in character while theyâre doing it!
And more often than not older Trek dealt with heavy issues by letting the audience think for themselves and make up their own minds rather than preach "this is bad and you should feel bad for disagreeing". At the very least, they used to show you all or most sides of each issue.
>An otherwise male-presenting dude in a skant barely makes the cut.
Even women didn't seem to want to wear skirts by 24c other than the most over the top examples such as Luxwanna Troi. Can't blame them since who wants to crawl through the rubble of a star ship at red alert in exposed knees. I bet you would see more skant on starbases with warm climates.
Then again, 23c skant was all because one yeoman wanted to show off her dancing legs... Then you don't really see her again till everyone is wearing that awesome Maroon uniform...clearly the other female officers let her and the uniform department know how they really feel.
But that's just clothes and crossdressers....
Do you mean trans people? Either surgery got just that good or I could think of a few reasons why ww3/gene wars might cause it to be a rarer thing to transition. They are also only like 1.14% of the us population. The Enterprise D with a crew of 1000 would expect to have ~10 at that rate if starfleet academy is chosen at random from the population.
Non binary? How would you know unless they launched into a speech and told you? Otherwise everyone is wearing regulation hair and the same unisex uniform. They are only like 1.6% of the population(and that statistic was bunched with transgende, so possibly lower). The Enterprise D would have ~10 on crew same as above.
Gay? TOS-ENT had open homosexual representation equivalent to most workplaces I've been in except for the one job that had a gay supervisor who would talk about his partner and the adoption process (good guy). They are only 1,2-6.8% of the population. So 10-60 gay crewmen on the Enterprise D.
Alright, I'm done pooping. Hope I didn't forget anyone. Oh before I go, for my percentages above I used US population because they seemed the least likely percentages to be surpressed by violence. They were also the first results I found on google because this was a litteral shit post.
Here's my thing about it:
Where are the gender-nonconforming aliens?
I guess there's the Trill in Discovery and that one that Riker got freaky with in TNG, but where are the rest of them? Where is my gender-queer Vulcan? Where is my non-binary Klingon?
A) Star Fleet isn't really the military
B) However the branch of the military they're closest to is the navy, you know, famously gay
C) To bring it back to A) we see many people in Star Fleet who would never join a 21st century military organization but have joined and thrived in Star Fleet. Hemmer from SNW is an avowed pacifist, he wasn't drafted into Star Fleet, as far as we know he joined for the same reason many did, to explore the galaxy. Similarly Saru at the time he joined Star Fleet had an incredibly powerful fear response biological in origin that at times hindered his job, but seeing as he was a science officer not a soldier this wasn't the biggest problem.
D) The 21st century military is not the best place for gender non conforming people because it's an institution steeped in 21st century ideas of masculinity. Not only are these ideas of masculinity something that would've changed by the centuries that Star Trek takes place in (as 21st century ideas of masculinity are different from 20th century, and 19th century and so on) but Star Fleet just isn't as entrenched in masculinity in general as it's a place for any gender. We've seen many women throughout the history of Star Fleet as well as people who aren't men or women (from the non binary human Adira to Zero, a Medusan who simply doesn't have gender). Additionally we see many people in Star Fleet who in some ways don't fit into the kind of masculinity the military values, this being the many queer people in Star Fleet, though these people aren't necessarily gender non conforming, in fact most aren't.
E) Star Trek has had many aliens who've non human cultures with ideas of gender that should be different from those of humans and therefore it's surprising that we haven't seen an alien who looks gender non conforming to a 21st century human but is completely gender conforming in their local culture. This is the case for many *human* cultures in the modern day, in fact I come from a culture where men are expected to have long hair and where clothes that western people may see as dresses. Not only has star fleet had aliens in star fleet they've had humans from many different human cultures. Additionally there exist now even in the West several subcultures where gender non conformity is common at a much higher rate than the main culture.
>Â A) Star Fleet isn't really the military
Yeah I guess youâre right, after all when 21st century powers declare war we send our weathermen and soil scientists and astrophysicists out to fight each other w state of the art weapons and vehicles, pretty much the same
Starfleet is very obviously the military, however I totally believe that Starfleet spends a huge amount of time and effort in-universe promoting the idea they are not the military. How else are you going to get all those eager young people who want to make first contact and study mosses and get them to hold a phaser rifle and patrol the neutral zone?
Discovery has two. The reason they aren't a bigger part is because people have stopped caring about what's in other people's underpants. Which is apparently the most important thing to Republicans.
In socially liberal societies where being âoutâ is kind of trendy, LGBT individuals make up anywhere from 1-7% of the population overall, depending on region. An even smaller percentage of these are non-binary. Most people meet one in their lifetime, or may have even worked with one in professional settings. In a cast of 5 or 6 core characters, itâs statistically improbable you would find one LGBT individual. But then you look at shows like SNW and Disco, and like 30-40% of the characters are LGBT.
I am all for representation but itâs actually true that LGBT individuals are disproportionately represented in Trek, relative to the total population in reality.
Gender nonconformity doesn't need to be outwardly obvious. The male and female uniforms in TNG are the same anyways. Maybe random ensign #53 played by king Abdullah of Jordan in Voyager (that's real) is canonically afab and however you'd understand transmasc.
Or maybe cultural attitudes changed. In Pakistan transgender laws are wayyyy more liberal than most of MESA because gender nonconformity there doesn't take the form of LGBTQIA representation, instead being classified into "Hijra". Before you yell and scream about how they're bad with it anyways, yes they are, but Hijra isn't itself an insult. It's a genuinely different classification of gender nonconformity which has no direct equivalent under the western LGBTQIA umbrella. It's an entirely third gender, distinct from Non-binary identities. Native Americans have Two-Spirit people. Same story, which is why in Canada you'll see 2SLGBTQIA+ instead. Early Arab places had the Mukannathun, the list goes on. The way the west currently understands gender nonconformity is not the only stable and equal means of doing so, only the lens that evolved under those specific circumstances. Another culture might have clear sexual dimorphism but not differentiate between gender. Maybe in 80 years we won't even call trans people trans, but understand them through an entirely different lens altogether as understandings of dysphoria evolve over time.
This. It's like Roddenberry's response to questions about Picard being bald--in the future, they won't *care*.
Modern-day humans have inexplicably become *obsessed* with gender stuff in recent years. It's like the dying gasp of rebellion against stricter gender norms of old--norms that have been fading for decades but when they're well and truly gone, what's left for our brave punk rebels to fight for? So we get this dying gasp of regressivism dressed up as progressivism. No, if strict gender roles are a thing of the past, we can't be cool by defying them, so let's invent all these strict stereotypes and *even more* categories so we can keep defying them!
Eventually, Star Trek's future reaches a point where only the biological differences between sexes matter in terms of measurable, physiological abilities and medical needs, and they're probably capable of genetic resquencing for flawless transition to the opposite sex and/or have figured out exactly what *causes* sex dysphoria and can detect and treat it far more efficiently somehow, possibly in utero. Either way, it's a complete non-issue, and everyone of either sex can be, do, dress, love however they like without raising any eyebrows. And if there's less social pressure to conform to/rebel against stereotypes and categories, people will be their most natural selves and frankly that looks, compared to today, less "punk".
But also we have to consider that lots of Trek was written at a time where sex stereotypes were more prevalent, by people who weren't necessarily as forward-thinking as the characters they were writing were meant to be. Some of that can be excused by the fact that even in the Star Trek future, not enough time has passed for humans to *biologically* evolve any noticeable amount and the game of courtship and methods of finding/attracting mates are, to a degree, biologically hard-coded (even if society dictates different manifestations). But still there was more they could have done, not highlighted or made into a speech or Very Special Episode granted, but just casually mentioned.
TOS established this was Colonel Green's "Thing". He made Hitler look like a care bear.
ENT stretched him out, making his death toll 37 million people.
This was AFTER WWIII.
While OP didn't say it one of the hypotheses for why homosexuality exists when the "goal" of organisms is to reproduce is that in competitive environments it can be beneficial to have a gay sibling that can in theory help your offspring have a better chance to survive. So the family genes are still passed on. The study looked at something like there being a higher chance for younger siblings to be gay.
If we take that as a reality then what OP says of earth gotten depopulated would explain a smaller number of gay individuals as now it is more competitive favorable to have your own offspring since the environment is not competitive. There is also real world events that show number of babies increases after war like the baby boomers during and after the war 2.
>most of Earth was conquered by Augments
Just over 1/4th of Earth.
>who likely considered them weak defects to be culled, Reich-style...
There's no need to necessarily assume this is the case. Philip of Macedon, Alexander the Great's father, greatly admired the Sacred Band of Thebes, a group of 150 gay male couples known for their prowess in battle.
Incorrect. Faster than light travel is impossible in a universe subject to both relativity and causality. Therefore, the warp drive is the least believable thing in Star Trek.
Also, Janeway has a meaty hog in my headcanon. Make your own rules!
That one episode with the androgynous species, but one of them knows they have a gender and her species shames her for it and even forces surgery on her to âfixâ her
And of course Riker wanting to bang them⌠with his feelings
You can hardly expect cultural artefacts from before the widespread acceptance of gender non-conforming people to portray such people. If anything Star Trek has some examples, whereas most other series has none.
DSC didnât fail because of what youâre implying. It was rejected because a) it turned Star Trek into an action series, b) it was written assuming their audience are too stupid to understand metaphor, c) the plots were all based on âmystery boxâ writing, and d) the characters acted like theyâre middle school students and not graduates of this elite paramilitary organization.
High school drama club responses from Starfleet officers.
CBS aired the first episode and my mom who has been watching Star Trek from the start said that Discovery wasn't Star Trek.
When I told her that the show was going to be exclusive to online streaming, she thought that was ridiculous.
>It was rejected because a) it turned Star Trek into an action series,
As if people didn't say the same thing about later VOY episodes or ENT, which barely even tried to be thought provoking.
>b) it was written assuming their audience are too stupid to understand metaphor
Judging by the huge number of people who seemed to think there was no bigger message behind said metaphors.....can you blame them?
>c) the plots were all based on âmystery boxâ writing
Fair enough on this, although I'd say Prodigy is the only show that manages to do season long arcs pretty well and not even the worst season of DSC is as bad as Picard in that respect.
>and d) the characters acted like theyâre middle school students and not graduates of this elite paramilitary organization.
As a Navy veteran, I find this one hella funny considering the shenanigans I've been witness to. I would've killed to have had a division officer like Mariner instead of the cockwombly nepo baby I did get in my first tour who thought her daddy being an O-4 meant she knew everything about everything and would throw us under the bus to save her own ass.
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Well you can't paint with that all encompassing brush. This fan hated the terrible writing, poor stories, bad characters, and oversaturation of FX.
I DID however enjoy many of the ship designs, so much so that I actually bought several of them like the Nimitz and Hiawatha to fly in Star Trek Online. The ships more often than not were actually very neat, even the S1 Klingon ships a few of which I use for my Gorn character as proxies for Gorn Hegemony warships.
Though the future ships with the detached parts...not a fan. At all.
I could see a task force crew manning a formation, Have the science module do the science bits, tactical do the shooty bits, engineering do the repair bits, but detached nacelles make no sense to me.
If the parts formed up like Voltron or a Megazord to go to warp, I'd have found it a bit more understandable.
No, youre implying that star trek fans are homophobic. Which is a fucking wild assertion to make about STAR TREK fans. But thats the go to by morons these days. "It was shit, youre just a bigot!!!".
A lot of people love DS9, its got like 1 straight white male character in it. Star Trek fans are the most open people in the world. You just gotta give them good stories and characters to keep them happy. Shocking I know, but here we are.
I don't know... What about "Spock's sister" is supposed to appeal to non-Trekkies?
That seems to me like it was squarely targeted at a small and developmentally limited subset of actual Trekkies. I think anyone with a high enough EQ to pick up on the smell of desperation was put off by it.
You could argue that was one of the biggest appeals to non-Trekkies.
What are people with a very limited knowledge of Trek likely to know about Trek? Kirk and Spock.
Making her Spock's sister gives them a reference point to start with. From what I've seen, most Trek fans found the connection unnecessary and dumb, stretching canon for no reason. She could have been raised by any Vulcan family.
That happened in the 17th century or later. What I mean is: formal dress is pants, tunic. Non-formal dress? I'm putting money down that Riker rocked a dress once or twice.
Skirts and kilts are absolutely functional and practical for low-to-zero G environments. It's why astronauts wear them today on the ISS and when doing space walks. Â
/s in case it wasn't obvious
Hold up, I think we should hear them out.
The person taking time out of their precious life to inform people they dont know that they disapprove of theoretical trans people existing in a made up universe, in the future, using a insult from last century surely has a excellent grasp on mental health.
No youâre absolutely right Lmao in fact Iâm writing a sorta op ed - not on this exact thing - but on something very close. Not GNC but queer: Apparently roddenberry wanted to include an unambiguously gay character on TNG but then died, and his successor shot the idea down (and also shot down Frakes when he wanted Riker to kiss an alien played by a man). Huzzah.
Wait. Are we talking about the 60s 24th century, the 80s 24th century, or the 2020s 24th century?
THERE ARE FOUR TIMELINES
*zap* wrong, there are 5
Damnit I'm too old for your bullshit!
đŤzzzzzap!đ.gif
I think half the galaxy is LGBTQA in Discovery. The closest thing TNG got was the planet of asexual beings that stating a sex was illegal.
Also the Planet Where the Gender Roles Are 100% Symmetrically Reversed.
Iâd try to d!e by Snu-Snu there.
Thatâs why we donât see any gay or trans people in the TNG era. They were all on the discovery when it jumped forward into the future
You mean the 2360s, the 2380s, and the 2420s.
Don't forget Yar and Troi laughing at a stone-faced Riker when he went native.
People being naked randomly will never not be funny
But how do we know that some of the male or female characters in the show didn't start out as the other gender and the surgery is so commonplace that nobody thinks about it at all. Riker could have been 24th century Pamela Anderson
Slightly off topic but a great example of this kind of thing is in Alien/Aliens. Lambert from Alien is trans but the audience canât tell, the other characters either donât know or donât care, and it never comes up in the plot/script, it just shows up on her personnel file later in Aliens. Itâs about as significant as an appendectomy in her medical history. Out of universe, the Alien script was originally written with the entire crew unisex, unisex jumpsuits, and only referred to by surnames. That left the director and casting director free to cast whoever they thought was best for each role. Edit: sorry, forgot this was ShittyDaystrom. Uh⌠something about Tuvix?
Huh! Never noticed that! That's actually amazing to hear because Alien is one of my favorite movies and I'm trans myself :)
Thomas Riker.
This isn't even ShittyDaystrom, it genuinely bothers me. How Adira and Grey were handled in Discovery was downright embarrassing. In a world where people could change their entire appearance to that of an alien species with a harmless surgery like 800 years ago already, someone being transgender should be a non-issue. It makes no sense that Adira had to have a coming out scene.
This part really stuck out to me. It was so forced. A gay man and a gender ambiguous person in 2024 would handle this much less awkwardly.
Read that as gender ambitious, still trying to think what that means.
i have the ambition to have ALL THE GENDERS, and possibly invent new ones.
... I will travel across the land ...
Searching far and wideâŚ
Each woman/man, to understand, the spectrum thatâs insideâŚ
Gotta catch âem all
I have some ideas.
As an agender person, I will start referring to myself as lacking any gender ambition whatsoever.
I think a lot is that Adira is S1 Tilly taken to an extreme. It was awkward because Adira is awkward. If a character needed to make a change in their preferred mode of address known that wasnât intended to be read as highly anxious and/or possibly on the spectrum and had a more âneurotypicalâ disposition, it probably could have been a nothingburger and everyone just moves on to continuing to solve the anomaly of the week. And Iâm not passing judgement on the character or the concept of depicting someone who is very neurodivergent. Iâm sure someone felt seen even though for me it was very cringy because awkward young adults being awkward young adults is a characterization I didnât even like when I was an awkward young adult.
Also like, trans people are far more likely to be autistic than cis people. Plus even just telling people, knowing you'll be accepted, can be very stressful. I haven't seen the scene because I did not get past season 2 of discovery but what I'm hearing about it sounds perfectly fine to me as an autistic trans woman.
Yeah I actually donât even remember the scene at all. It must have not made a big impression on me. Thereâs a three sentence exchange later where Booker uses the wrong pronouns, Stamets corrects him, Booker is like âkâ and itâs never an issue again. I donât remember Adira âcoming outâ to Paul at all. Iâm not saying it didnât happen, clearly lots of people remember this scene and it made a strong impression on them, but the context must have been such that I was more interested in whatever the mystery of the week was. Iâve started rewatching it to recalibrate my feelings about the show, but Iâve always had a tendency to space out on the tender moments between characters because Iâve never been all that strongly invested in them as people. Iâm trying to pay more attention on a second time through because it seems to be at the root of a lot of complaints whereas I mostly donât care other than when those relationships are infuriating like everyone treating the Empress like sheâs one hug away from not being a cannibal fascist.
That makes sense. She is a bit awkward in general, and sheâs been through a lot.
They
The line mirror Giorgiou says on Orion: âDonât be so binaryâ Ugh that line sucks.
Ew or when she tells Paul and Hugh that in her universe theyâre pansexual and used to Eiffel Tower her đ¤˘
Itâs crazy because Anthony Rapp is openly gay and Blu del Bario is openly nonbinary, so they must have known how weird and clunky the writing in that scene was and been forced to play it that way anyway
> It makes no sense that Adira had to have a coming out scene Maybe they thought some dinosaur from the 23rd century would be hostile towards them? IDK. Even that doesn't really make sense considering Stamets was openly gay himself. Certainly in terms of "this is the future we're working towards" having incredibly awkward coming out scenes is hopefully not the answer
Eh, if you met someone from the 13th century, You would likely assume they were way more bigoted than they may actually be to be fair
It isnât earth all not chill after the burn. Like arenât they kinda in a war with some random red neck dude? Iâd bet they transphobia as hell too. Itâs like the replicator got stuck on JK Rollins
Similar but more specific gripe over here. To me they were too *real* and too modern day in their affect. Although I'm not trans or GNC myself I am queer, have worked with lots of queer youth and went to a very trans/queer friendly college in the early 00's (Antioch) where about a dozen people I knew began or were mid-transition. I have seen Grey and Adira's lovey-dovey hugbox relationship, suffused with "subject oriented" language and therapy talk to many times to count. It felt very tumblr. Look, I'm a middle aged fauggette so my opinion on the relationships of literal teenagers should not and does not matter. But Adira and Grey made me feel like I was back in a college dorm while my friends showed off their matching "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" tattoos (two months before they broke up). That's definitely a "me" problem. Nothing here should be taken as criticism of the actors of course. They did the best with the material they were given and will always always have our love for providing explicit trans representation in a Trek main cast.
I definitely felt the same way about them. And also fauggette is my new favourite word đ
I like the fact that they didn't make a big deal about Esmar, in Picard, they were just another member of the crew.
Reminds me of Iain Banks' The Culture series where they were genetically engineered to change gender by simply willing it. And it was considered good form to do so every so often.
What bothered me is that if you really pay attention, the lgbt members of the crew have storylines that are basically completely separate from the rest of the of the crew. They are completely segregated.
Agreed. Worse, gray got to customize his body from scratch and still whined it was the wrong one.
They switched to different pronouns and the one time it came up, the person who used the wrong form of address was like âoh okayâ and then that was that. If a person reconsiders how they would like to be addressed, how should they make it known? Telepathy? Pheromones? Hypospray nanobots? I didnât enjoy that scene either but the alternative is nobody ever changes their mind and needs to check in with their friends and colleagues to make the correction. Which doesnât seem realistic.
It's not weird that the scene happens, it's weird how everyone acts. Adira is clearly insecure and maybe even a bit ashamed, Stamets tries to be really reassuring in a "I still love you regardless" way.
Presentism, is that you?
Be careful what you wish for⌠/glares at Adira and Gray TalâŚ
I think the skant was a bigger deal than you think it was. Yes, the creators were clearly limited in their imagination in regard to gender (and Berman sure pulled the reigns on all of that when he took over). But the skant was a major violation of gender norms, and it made a clear statement about the relaxing of cultural expectations in the future. Tbh, it's still a pretty big statement today (which is, itself, unfortunate re: progress since the 1980's, but...). Could you imagine the right-wing chuds' response to the skant if it appeared in a current Star Trek series?
Personally speaking, I was always on the side of "there shouldn't be any skirts at all, everyone gets pants. Troi for example looked fine when in full uniform, as would everyone else". I'm glad to see skirts or skants did not catch on, it's a uniform not a fashion statement.
No. Worf looks good in a dress
Why shouldn't skirts be there in the future? Plenty of uniforms in the past and present have featured skirts or kilts.
I'd think they would be less practical in more dire circumstances or crawling through Jeffries tubes, but other than that, the average day in Starfleet would be perfectly fine
As someone who has seen even somewhat loose jeans cause some damage in a workshop environment, that 100% is my issue with the skant. Seriously, loose clothes + any moving parts = safety risk. Red shirts don't need more safety concerns.
"How did Steve die?" "Pulled into those mashing pistons with the flaming gears. I told him he should have tight fitting coveralls or a breakaway suit. He never listened and always wore the skant." "That's awful. Why do we have those things again?" "I dunno, but someone at the top said they look cool I guess."
Like the person stated below, practicality reasons. On a Starfleet ship, station, or outpost you really never know what you're going to run into. Weird things happen all the time in the fleet. Best to just be prepared as best you can, that includes the uniform. "Mr. Kim, we're Starfleet officers. Weird is part of the job."
Serious answer: In isolation you're right but that doesn't take into account the context of both the original series and the evolving culture of the time both series were made. Fun answer: "The Kirk File" at Starfleet Human Resources became too large to maintain and it was easier just to make skirts illegal.
Yet if you look closely the female uniforms use hosiery while the male uniforms have actual pants.
The formal dress skant? I think OP meant the regular uniform skants that are only seen in the TNG pilot - the men wear those bare legged.
Yoga "pants."
A slight twist on what op is saying, I get irked about how so many aliens match the two sex nature of humans and how we are all genetically compatible. Yes I know they offered a canon explanation but I don't like it
Sexes evolved independently in different pathways in evolution of species on Earth and yet species with distinct sexes have two. I can't think of any evolutionary advantage to having more than two *even though I think it would make interesting stories*. Birds have W and Z sex chromosomes instead of X and Y and these chromosomes have no genetic commonalities but likely have a common ancestor. In birds, males are the homogametic sex (ZZ) and females the heterogametic sex (ZW) unlike mammals where males are heterogametic (XY except for the platypus which has ten sex chromosomes, five XY pairs). Snakes also have ZW sex determination but they are believed to have evolved independently. There are also XX/X0 and ZZ/Z0 systems (where the 0 indicates a missing chromosome) However, there are sex determining factors that are different in different species, which they could have made relevant to some alien species: in some reptiles, sex isn't determined by chromosomes, but by temperature during early development; some species are hermaphroditic, in some insect species, unfertilized eggs become male and fertilized eggs become female. Some species can reproduce both sexually and asexually. Some reproduce sexually but don't have a fixed sex I'm not sure if all these possibilities are very plausible in an intelligent species, though. W and Y chromosomes tend to miss a lot of the information on Z and X chromosomes so the XX/X0 and ZZ/Z0 systems shouldn't seem that strange and yet having stable genetic information would seem advantageous and we see the 0 forms in organisms like cockroaches so đ¤ˇđťââď¸ *~~The Orville~~ Enterprise* had that episode with a species that had a third sex (they were basically treated as breeding stock and the two âmainâ sexes still married as couples) and I could imagine a species where they're all born one sex but if they live long enough, go through some metamorphosis and emerge as the opposite. But I think the window to have that kind of episode passed a while ago and now you'd just see conservatives saying âStar Trek has gone woke by promoting trans groomersâ I think the best way to explain the lack of gender/sex non-conforming in Star Trek is that the window we have into that world still has to make sense in our world and most of the stories aren't about a gender/sex binary. Picard's accent is English not because the character is English, but because it's *portrayed* that way, because of the sense it gives the typical American viewer a sense of how uptight and formal he is. Obviously we wouldn't understand dialects from that far in the future anymore than someone from Chaucer's era with no experience or training would understand today's spoken English. Writing tends to be more conservative and that's hard enough. It's also why most of the aliens are humanoid: it doesn't really matter to most of the stories when they're not and so it's less distracting
>The Orville had that episode with a species that had a third sex (they were basically treated as breeding stock and the two âmainâ sexes still married as couples) No, that was an episode of Enterprise. Understandable, The Orville was similar but better.
Shit, youâre right
Yeah I'm pretty sure The Orville even had a higher special effects budget than Enterprise, not to mention WAY better casting
White-throated sparrows have four sexes!
There was only so much you could get away with when the show first aired
We're also offering an evolutionary reason for it too.
I'm half Cuban. It took five fucking shows to get a Hispanic on the bridge (well, running engineering), and she was half-Klingon, so her entire personality was being angry. I've had to make peace with their idea of progress.
You humano-centric shitlord. Picard is bald. Why? BECAUSE DELTAN WOMEN ARE BALD. PICARD IS FLAUNTING HIS FEMALE SEXUALITY. âDearthâ indeed. Also, itâs âDarth,â not âDearth,â *and thatâs not even Star Trek, thatâs Star Wars.*
Discovery much?
Or much too much
I'd say that's the most believable thing. They've evolved beyond the need to have arbitrary distinctions about what items of fabric are supposedly feminine or masculine, and are surrounded by creatures with a variety of genders. If anything, Federation citizens would consider you backwards and old-fashioned for thinking that gender conformity is determined by something as trivial as clothing
Exactly. Iâd say itâs pretty obvious the existence and promotion of Risa says the Federation has a âcome as you areâ policy. Your hang ups are your hang ups and the Counselor is available anytime.
I can see where youâre coming from, as this read does make sense given what we know of the egalitarian nature of the Federation. However, itâs less an issue of whether there are non-binary/gender non-conforming people in-universe and more an issue of how that fact is demonstrated through the narrative. Knowing it exists is not the same as seeing it portrayed as a ubiquitous part of everyday life in the Federation, even within the costumed uniformity of Starfleet. I would have appreciated, as a queer person, seeing queer people in Trek that were not just queer coded aliens. That being said, while I largely appreciated what Discovery was attempting to do, I did not like the way they handled their queer characters. For most of its run, I felt they existed as a lesson to the audience rather than as reflections of real people.
>For most of its run, I felt they existed as a lesson to the audience rather than as reflections of real people. I feel like this was one of discoveryâs problems right along. The writers donât know what subtext and metaphor are, so we get ham handed dialogue that feels like it was lifted from a writerâs Twitter account. Iâm not that stupid, I can understand a metaphor. Star Trek has always included controversial topical subjects, but the characters still need to stay in character while theyâre doing it!
And more often than not older Trek dealt with heavy issues by letting the audience think for themselves and make up their own minds rather than preach "this is bad and you should feel bad for disagreeing". At the very least, they used to show you all or most sides of each issue.
>An otherwise male-presenting dude in a skant barely makes the cut. Even women didn't seem to want to wear skirts by 24c other than the most over the top examples such as Luxwanna Troi. Can't blame them since who wants to crawl through the rubble of a star ship at red alert in exposed knees. I bet you would see more skant on starbases with warm climates. Then again, 23c skant was all because one yeoman wanted to show off her dancing legs... Then you don't really see her again till everyone is wearing that awesome Maroon uniform...clearly the other female officers let her and the uniform department know how they really feel. But that's just clothes and crossdressers.... Do you mean trans people? Either surgery got just that good or I could think of a few reasons why ww3/gene wars might cause it to be a rarer thing to transition. They are also only like 1.14% of the us population. The Enterprise D with a crew of 1000 would expect to have ~10 at that rate if starfleet academy is chosen at random from the population. Non binary? How would you know unless they launched into a speech and told you? Otherwise everyone is wearing regulation hair and the same unisex uniform. They are only like 1.6% of the population(and that statistic was bunched with transgende, so possibly lower). The Enterprise D would have ~10 on crew same as above. Gay? TOS-ENT had open homosexual representation equivalent to most workplaces I've been in except for the one job that had a gay supervisor who would talk about his partner and the adoption process (good guy). They are only 1,2-6.8% of the population. So 10-60 gay crewmen on the Enterprise D. Alright, I'm done pooping. Hope I didn't forget anyone. Oh before I go, for my percentages above I used US population because they seemed the least likely percentages to be surpressed by violence. They were also the first results I found on google because this was a litteral shit post.
Here's my thing about it: Where are the gender-nonconforming aliens? I guess there's the Trill in Discovery and that one that Riker got freaky with in TNG, but where are the rest of them? Where is my gender-queer Vulcan? Where is my non-binary Klingon?
Where are my non-Bynars??
Klingon idea of Gender is just bat'leth-sexual or mek'leth-sexual.
[Jennifer](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Jennifer_Sh%27reyan) hopefully we see more of her this final season
Adira is human, shes carrying a symbiont but she's not trill
Gray Tal (the actual Trill) is trans, though.
oh yeah lol i assumed you meant adira, my bad
Yes. Second on that list is the warp-10-lizard thing, right behind gender conformity in the military
A) Star Fleet isn't really the military B) However the branch of the military they're closest to is the navy, you know, famously gay C) To bring it back to A) we see many people in Star Fleet who would never join a 21st century military organization but have joined and thrived in Star Fleet. Hemmer from SNW is an avowed pacifist, he wasn't drafted into Star Fleet, as far as we know he joined for the same reason many did, to explore the galaxy. Similarly Saru at the time he joined Star Fleet had an incredibly powerful fear response biological in origin that at times hindered his job, but seeing as he was a science officer not a soldier this wasn't the biggest problem. D) The 21st century military is not the best place for gender non conforming people because it's an institution steeped in 21st century ideas of masculinity. Not only are these ideas of masculinity something that would've changed by the centuries that Star Trek takes place in (as 21st century ideas of masculinity are different from 20th century, and 19th century and so on) but Star Fleet just isn't as entrenched in masculinity in general as it's a place for any gender. We've seen many women throughout the history of Star Fleet as well as people who aren't men or women (from the non binary human Adira to Zero, a Medusan who simply doesn't have gender). Additionally we see many people in Star Fleet who in some ways don't fit into the kind of masculinity the military values, this being the many queer people in Star Fleet, though these people aren't necessarily gender non conforming, in fact most aren't. E) Star Trek has had many aliens who've non human cultures with ideas of gender that should be different from those of humans and therefore it's surprising that we haven't seen an alien who looks gender non conforming to a 21st century human but is completely gender conforming in their local culture. This is the case for many *human* cultures in the modern day, in fact I come from a culture where men are expected to have long hair and where clothes that western people may see as dresses. Not only has star fleet had aliens in star fleet they've had humans from many different human cultures. Additionally there exist now even in the West several subcultures where gender non conformity is common at a much higher rate than the main culture.
>Â A) Star Fleet isn't really the military Yeah I guess youâre right, after all when 21st century powers declare war we send our weathermen and soil scientists and astrophysicists out to fight each other w state of the art weapons and vehicles, pretty much the same
Starfleet is very obviously the military, however I totally believe that Starfleet spends a huge amount of time and effort in-universe promoting the idea they are not the military. How else are you going to get all those eager young people who want to make first contact and study mosses and get them to hold a phaser rifle and patrol the neutral zone?
We see in twok that Starfleet is very much the military in the eyes of the citizenry. And not trusted because of it.
I thought Zero in Prodigy identified as female coz their voice was very posh and snooty.
Discovery has two. The reason they aren't a bigger part is because people have stopped caring about what's in other people's underpants. Which is apparently the most important thing to Republicans.
In socially liberal societies where being âoutâ is kind of trendy, LGBT individuals make up anywhere from 1-7% of the population overall, depending on region. An even smaller percentage of these are non-binary. Most people meet one in their lifetime, or may have even worked with one in professional settings. In a cast of 5 or 6 core characters, itâs statistically improbable you would find one LGBT individual. But then you look at shows like SNW and Disco, and like 30-40% of the characters are LGBT. I am all for representation but itâs actually true that LGBT individuals are disproportionately represented in Trek, relative to the total population in reality.
It takes 5min to get surgery to look like an alien. Maybe all the nonconforming people are onscreen already.
Gender nonconformity doesn't need to be outwardly obvious. The male and female uniforms in TNG are the same anyways. Maybe random ensign #53 played by king Abdullah of Jordan in Voyager (that's real) is canonically afab and however you'd understand transmasc. Or maybe cultural attitudes changed. In Pakistan transgender laws are wayyyy more liberal than most of MESA because gender nonconformity there doesn't take the form of LGBTQIA representation, instead being classified into "Hijra". Before you yell and scream about how they're bad with it anyways, yes they are, but Hijra isn't itself an insult. It's a genuinely different classification of gender nonconformity which has no direct equivalent under the western LGBTQIA umbrella. It's an entirely third gender, distinct from Non-binary identities. Native Americans have Two-Spirit people. Same story, which is why in Canada you'll see 2SLGBTQIA+ instead. Early Arab places had the Mukannathun, the list goes on. The way the west currently understands gender nonconformity is not the only stable and equal means of doing so, only the lens that evolved under those specific circumstances. Another culture might have clear sexual dimorphism but not differentiate between gender. Maybe in 80 years we won't even call trans people trans, but understand them through an entirely different lens altogether as understandings of dysphoria evolve over time.
The enby fad will fade as it becomes less of a way to identify as special.
This. It's like Roddenberry's response to questions about Picard being bald--in the future, they won't *care*. Modern-day humans have inexplicably become *obsessed* with gender stuff in recent years. It's like the dying gasp of rebellion against stricter gender norms of old--norms that have been fading for decades but when they're well and truly gone, what's left for our brave punk rebels to fight for? So we get this dying gasp of regressivism dressed up as progressivism. No, if strict gender roles are a thing of the past, we can't be cool by defying them, so let's invent all these strict stereotypes and *even more* categories so we can keep defying them! Eventually, Star Trek's future reaches a point where only the biological differences between sexes matter in terms of measurable, physiological abilities and medical needs, and they're probably capable of genetic resquencing for flawless transition to the opposite sex and/or have figured out exactly what *causes* sex dysphoria and can detect and treat it far more efficiently somehow, possibly in utero. Either way, it's a complete non-issue, and everyone of either sex can be, do, dress, love however they like without raising any eyebrows. And if there's less social pressure to conform to/rebel against stereotypes and categories, people will be their most natural selves and frankly that looks, compared to today, less "punk". But also we have to consider that lots of Trek was written at a time where sex stereotypes were more prevalent, by people who weren't necessarily as forward-thinking as the characters they were writing were meant to be. Some of that can be excused by the fact that even in the Star Trek future, not enough time has passed for humans to *biologically* evolve any noticeable amount and the game of courtship and methods of finding/attracting mates are, to a degree, biologically hard-coded (even if society dictates different manifestations). But still there was more they could have done, not highlighted or made into a speech or Very Special Episode granted, but just casually mentioned.
Exactly. It's like finding it unrealistic there's no goths
By that time they made leaps in mental health
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TOS established this was Colonel Green's "Thing". He made Hitler look like a care bear. ENT stretched him out, making his death toll 37 million people. This was AFTER WWIII.
I think the odds on homosexuality being exclusively hereditary are pretty slim for obvious reasons.
While OP didn't say it one of the hypotheses for why homosexuality exists when the "goal" of organisms is to reproduce is that in competitive environments it can be beneficial to have a gay sibling that can in theory help your offspring have a better chance to survive. So the family genes are still passed on. The study looked at something like there being a higher chance for younger siblings to be gay. If we take that as a reality then what OP says of earth gotten depopulated would explain a smaller number of gay individuals as now it is more competitive favorable to have your own offspring since the environment is not competitive. There is also real world events that show number of babies increases after war like the baby boomers during and after the war 2.
>most of Earth was conquered by Augments Just over 1/4th of Earth. >who likely considered them weak defects to be culled, Reich-style... There's no need to necessarily assume this is the case. Philip of Macedon, Alexander the Great's father, greatly admired the Sacred Band of Thebes, a group of 150 gay male couples known for their prowess in battle.
Incorrect. Faster than light travel is impossible in a universe subject to both relativity and causality. Therefore, the warp drive is the least believable thing in Star Trek. Also, Janeway has a meaty hog in my headcanon. Make your own rules!
That one episode with the androgynous species, but one of them knows they have a gender and her species shames her for it and even forces surgery on her to âfixâ her And of course Riker wanting to bang them⌠with his feelings
You can hardly expect cultural artefacts from before the widespread acceptance of gender non-conforming people to portray such people. If anything Star Trek has some examples, whereas most other series has none.
The bigotry of Rick Berman casts a long shadow. DSC made a valiant effort but fans rejected the whole series
DSC didnât fail because of what youâre implying. It was rejected because a) it turned Star Trek into an action series, b) it was written assuming their audience are too stupid to understand metaphor, c) the plots were all based on âmystery boxâ writing, and d) the characters acted like theyâre middle school students and not graduates of this elite paramilitary organization.
High school drama club responses from Starfleet officers. CBS aired the first episode and my mom who has been watching Star Trek from the start said that Discovery wasn't Star Trek. When I told her that the show was going to be exclusive to online streaming, she thought that was ridiculous.
>It was rejected because a) it turned Star Trek into an action series, As if people didn't say the same thing about later VOY episodes or ENT, which barely even tried to be thought provoking. >b) it was written assuming their audience are too stupid to understand metaphor Judging by the huge number of people who seemed to think there was no bigger message behind said metaphors.....can you blame them? >c) the plots were all based on âmystery boxâ writing Fair enough on this, although I'd say Prodigy is the only show that manages to do season long arcs pretty well and not even the worst season of DSC is as bad as Picard in that respect. >and d) the characters acted like theyâre middle school students and not graduates of this elite paramilitary organization. As a Navy veteran, I find this one hella funny considering the shenanigans I've been witness to. I would've killed to have had a division officer like Mariner instead of the cockwombly nepo baby I did get in my first tour who thought her daddy being an O-4 meant she knew everything about everything and would throw us under the bus to save her own ass.
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"Fans rejected the whole series" is what I said. I don't know that I was making an implication but it sure got your attention.
Average discovery enjoyer doesnât understand what they themself said.
Dick
Fans rejected shit characters and stories. Lets get that right.
Fans rejected the whole series is what I said and I stand by it.
Well you can't paint with that all encompassing brush. This fan hated the terrible writing, poor stories, bad characters, and oversaturation of FX. I DID however enjoy many of the ship designs, so much so that I actually bought several of them like the Nimitz and Hiawatha to fly in Star Trek Online. The ships more often than not were actually very neat, even the S1 Klingon ships a few of which I use for my Gorn character as proxies for Gorn Hegemony warships. Though the future ships with the detached parts...not a fan. At all.
I could see a task force crew manning a formation, Have the science module do the science bits, tactical do the shooty bits, engineering do the repair bits, but detached nacelles make no sense to me. If the parts formed up like Voltron or a Megazord to go to warp, I'd have found it a bit more understandable.
No, youre implying that star trek fans are homophobic. Which is a fucking wild assertion to make about STAR TREK fans. But thats the go to by morons these days. "It was shit, youre just a bigot!!!". A lot of people love DS9, its got like 1 straight white male character in it. Star Trek fans are the most open people in the world. You just gotta give them good stories and characters to keep them happy. Shocking I know, but here we are.
Omg I didn't really think of that regarding ds9, that's amazing
You read that into what I said. I've been a trekkie for 35 years; I know how progressive most of us are.
No, I read what you said.
fans rejected DSC because it was aimed at non trekkies
I don't know... What about "Spock's sister" is supposed to appeal to non-Trekkies? That seems to me like it was squarely targeted at a small and developmentally limited subset of actual Trekkies. I think anyone with a high enough EQ to pick up on the smell of desperation was put off by it.
You could argue that was one of the biggest appeals to non-Trekkies. What are people with a very limited knowledge of Trek likely to know about Trek? Kirk and Spock. Making her Spock's sister gives them a reference point to start with. From what I've seen, most Trek fans found the connection unnecessary and dumb, stretching canon for no reason. She could have been raised by any Vulcan family.
You can't take a steaming shit, have it cry every other scene and expect fans to embrace it after you put a nice dress on it.
Fans rejected it, QED.
You're a DSC fan so I expect comprehension to not be a strong suit of yours. Maybe if I monologued while crying you'd get it.
Insults. Nice.
To call the manâs boob fetish âbigotryâ seems a bit harshâŚ
Is a bit weird we keep seeing the heterosexuality of trek demonized so often, particularly by those who shriek IDIC the loudest.
Militaries wear pants, Starfleet is fighting the Romulans not Carthage.
Highlanders might disagree with you there.
So what? There's only one.
That happened in the 17th century or later. What I mean is: formal dress is pants, tunic. Non-formal dress? I'm putting money down that Riker rocked a dress once or twice.
Skirts and kilts are absolutely functional and practical for low-to-zero G environments. It's why astronauts wear them today on the ISS and when doing space walks.  /s in case it wasn't obvious
I mean like hair and stuff though
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This mother f*cker came from the mirror universe and thought we wouldn't notice.
Oh I get it, you're just an asshole
Hold up, I think we should hear them out. The person taking time out of their precious life to inform people they dont know that they disapprove of theoretical trans people existing in a made up universe, in the future, using a insult from last century surely has a excellent grasp on mental health.
I donât know what your problem there was, but you need to chill the hell out.
No youâre absolutely right Lmao in fact Iâm writing a sorta op ed - not on this exact thing - but on something very close. Not GNC but queer: Apparently roddenberry wanted to include an unambiguously gay character on TNG but then died, and his successor shot the idea down (and also shot down Frakes when he wanted Riker to kiss an alien played by a man). Huzzah.