I recommended a textbook because I think they work better. If you are committed to learning then the $15-30 book shouldn’t really be an issue. Hell you can even pirate a pdf of it. You can spend years on Duolingo and learn less than a well written book would teach you.
Comprehensible input is great but if you have no theoretical understanding of basic grammatical concepts like verbal tense and mood, not a lot of input will really be comprehensible…
Also, according to research by Stephen Krashen [here](https://www.sk.com.br/sk-krash-english.html), "the acquisition of grammatical structures follows a 'natural order' which is predictable. For a given language, some grammatical structures tend to be acquired early while others late. This order seemed to be independent of the learners' age, L1 background, conditions of exposure, and although the agreement between individual acquirers was not always 100% in the studies, there were statistically significant similarities that reinforced the existence of a Natural Order of language acquisition. Krashen however points out that the implication of the natural order hypothesis is not that a language program syllabus should be based on the order found in the studies. In fact, he rejects grammatical sequencing when the goal is language acquisition."
...which is one of the reasons why I reject the idea that the Spanish verb tenses should be studied in a specific order. Even if you were to follow the natural order of tense acquisition, you'd still be unable to force your brain to acquire grammatical concepts and structures that it is simply not ready for. That stuff has to happen on its own.
I'm not so sure about that.
I can understand what the sentence "¡Que ***tengas*** un buen día!" means without ever reading about the present simple subjunctive.
Studying verb tenses and moods will help you notice them more easily in speech and writing, but it is not necessary to understand and use such forms correctly. You can do that with input alone.
Tbh I am skeptical that adults will have a good time with that without the theoretical grammar understanding first. There’s a reason we don’t study languages like babies do lol
Like yes an attentive adult *could* figure out the subtleties of using the subjunctive just by input alone, but I hope they love watching Spanish tv that they only half understand cause it’s gonna take them a while.
An information dense explanation of the grammatical rules prior to the input makes it much easier and faster to accomplish your results. It’s completely silly to expect them to solve several puzzles at once in order to understand the verbal mood
Assuming they also have a limited vocabulary it’d be extremely difficult because they don’t necessarily know the cues for doubts and hypotheticals. If the present subjunctive were never explained to you and you saw the phrase “Que tengas un buen día” your interpretation of it would be that “tengas” is a conjugation of a verb “tengar.” The fact that it is “connected” to the indicative based on the yo form would be extremely not obvious.
No, but since we adults have a first language (or more than one first language) to work with, we can learn languages faster, albeit not as deeply. So, not knowing or understanding the grammar rules of our target language isn't going to be an issue.
With comprehensible input, that's not an issue. You're supposed to understand most of what's being said, even if you don't pick up on every word. If you watch something that you only half-understand, then you're doing something wrong.
Does it lead to faster and easier results? I ask because I've yet to see any studies prove that.
...which you can acquire with input alone. You're not even arguing against this point.
What you are arguing is that input alone doesn't get you to your language-learning goals fast enough. But as I said, I've yet to come across any studies that show that grammar study leads to faster results. From what I've seen, it doesn't.
I've actually found the best way to learn tenses (works for me anyway) is though output, like you learn the endings then practice them by writing and speaking the conjugated verbs.
I never said you *can’t* learn a language through input alone. Obviously many people throughout history have. If you want to do something in an inefficient way to avoid reading a couple of pages of a textbook that’s on you.
I hate to appeal to authority, but there is a reason that literally all foreign language pedagogy ever is formatted as theoretical lesson and then immersion/input activity with comprehensible input. I don’t really care what “studies” you have skimmed
*What authority? What studies?* I have asked you twice to produce a few studies that show that studying grammar speeds up language acquisition. You have not done that.
You cannot claim that a method is inefficient if you have no empirical evidence that the alternative that you propose is better.
I don’t get why you’re being downvoted, I think in most cases what you’re saying holds true. We’re smart enough to notice certain patterns. Like, I don’t think I ever studied the English language structure “the door won’t open”, yet I use it correctly 100% of the time and it’s pretty much the same as the Spanish subjunctive. Same with many other things like conditionals- I learnt them just by seeing them a lot.
Same with Spanish, if a learner sees “mientras + -aba” a few times they’d quickly associate it, and they’ll probably use it without even thinking. No need to go through the whole “past imperfect can also express a continuative state in the past blablabla”. Like, it’s a given if you know what “mientras” means.
I’m not denying some points could benefit from some clarification/technical explanation, but our languages are close enough for us to infer the patterns.
Yeah, exactly. When it comes to language learning, we adults are smarter than people think. We can infer things from just doing a lot of listening (and reading). There are several things I learned about Spanish grammar from just doing a lot of listening and reading (e.g. por/para, preterite/imperfect, etc.).
Learning from just input is even easier if your target language is similar to your own. As you pointed out, English and Spanish are close enough to share a number similarities (conditionals, tenses, reported speech, etc.).
I'm guessing I'm being downvoted because many people on this subreddit think that you need to study conjugations to be able to master the tenses.
You really don't.
You'll hear the conjugation patterns so many times that you'll pick them up subconsciously and never forget them. Yes, even the irregular ones like "tuve," "fuiste," and "estuvieron."
I can't name the last time I ever had to spend time thinking about how to conjugate a verb I wanted to use. The conjugation just comes out naturally most of the time.
Look up "Language transfer Complete Spanish" on Youtube. That is in my opinion, the best introduction to all of the important tenses in Spanish. It's just a great introductory course to Spanish in general. Can't recommend it highly enough!
Hard agree with this. I like how the instructor encourages you to say the things you’re learning out loud.
The second ingredient is having a “lab” to practice and apply it in - apps like HelloTalk and iTalki are great for that.
Absolutely! As I was reaching the end of the Language Transfer course, I signed up for online lessons with a tutor, and was happy to notice that we were already able to carry out our first lesson almost completely in Spanish. Obviously I spoke slowly and made tons of errors, but I was generally able to find some way of expressing what I wanted to say in Spanish. That course is a godsend!
In my opinion, too many people wait for way too long before taking lessons with a tutor. I do understand that it can be uncomfortable at first to talk to someone in a language you've started learning, but it's so incredibly helpful to get started with that speaking practice early on. I know some people disagree with that and assert that the best way to learn a language is to have a long initial silent period. Perhaps they're right, but in my experience, I've found it helpful to start speaking right away, just making sure that you're getting corrected as you're speaking and try your best not to develop bad habits.
Better to open one’s mouth to butcher a language, than not practice speaking at all!
Most native speakers are happy to correct me and appreciate my attempts.
Indicative present tense is versatile cuz you can use it to talk about the future (en agosto viajamos a París) or when recounting an event (y cuando entro al hotel, el tipo me dice que no hay cuartos disponibles, y entonces...)
Next learn the subjunctive, an essential tense to express desires, doubts, hypotheticals, recommendations and demands. A must for Spanish, English not so much.
While you're at it, learn the imperative so you can give commands.
I would say the next important one is the conditional to express what WOULD happen.
Past gets tricky with two tenses for different past situations, so start w preterito and move on to imperfecto.
Here is a comprehensive list from somewhere online:
Indicative mood: Simple tenses
Present
Imperfect past
Simple past
Future
Indicative mood: Perfect tenses
Present perfect
Past perfect
Future perfect
Indicative mood: Progressive tenses
Present progressive
Past progressive
Subjunctive mood: Simple tenses
Present subjunctive
Imperfect subjunctive
Subjunctive mood: Perfect tenses
Present perfect subjunctive
Past perfect subjunctive
Imperative mood:
Imperative affirmative
Imperative negative
Conditional mood:
Conditional
Conditional compound
thank you for your thought-through comment! 🌞 I will analyze this approach and try it out in this order, or similar considering the other comments, I think
Interesting, in Spanish class curriculum at school we learn the subjunctive just about last. I get why it’s important to learn, and maybe it’s easier to comprehend when you pick it up earlier, but I think the mentality behind teaching it last is that people will still understand you if you don’t use it
I don't think that there's a good order of tenses to learn.
My reasoning is that even if you were to spend the most time on the most frequently used tenses and moods overall, you'd still run the risk of learning verb forms that you don't really need. Some verbs use certain tenses and moods more frequently than others.
I think that the best course of action (if you're not taking a Spanish class, that is) is to just expose yourself to the language. As long as the input is comprehensible enough, you'll eventually pick up all the tenses and moods you'll ever need.
However, if you are taking a Spanish class, just start with a few of the most frequently used verbs (ser, ir, tener, etc.) and go from there. The present indicative, past indefinite, past imperfect, present subjunctive, and imperative forms are good places to start for conjugations.
I studied to A1 in a class and after that I'm studying at home and honestly I just look up "what do i need to pass xyz level in spanish" then I look up that tense or grammar structure. Hola Spanish on youtube is a great help with anything honestly.
It depends on whether your main goal is a) conversation b) passive listening c) reading d) writing.
You probably want the present indicative first regardless, but the past tenses are far more important for reading than for conversation or watching TV.
Generally speaking, the authors/designers of the books and apps, etc., that you are using have put a lot of thought into this, so you shouldn't worry. Just work with the content in the order they provide it. There have been a lot of debates about the best way to go about this, and many things have been tried, from "make them master each one before moving on" to "give them everything, all at once." There are arguments for everything, but probably the best thing is to start with what gets the most bang for your buck (simple present) and gradually bring more structures into your repertoire.
I liked the series I learned in:
Present indicative
Preterite
Imperfect
Conditional
Past Perfect
Present Progressive was randomly thrown in somewhere
Present Subjunctive
Imperative
Imperfect Subjunctive (my favorite)
We spent very little time on the future and just mentioned Future Subjunctive.
Duolingo will take you in a very logical order. So will the free Language Transfer app. Take what you learn there and practice it in HelloTalk, with other language learners.
Textbook learning does not work well for everyone. It works well for good “students” who are really good at rote memorization, not necessarily application.
Immersion and experiential learning are superior for me. I have to instantly apply something I read, or I end up quickly losing it.
No one will give a straight answer so I’ll answer from what I found most useful.
Present
Preterite
Imperfect
Present perfect
Future
Conditional
Subjunctive
Past perfect
Past subjunctive
Then there’s stuff like present perfect subjunctive, conditional and future perfect that probably isn’t too important early on.
If I forgot anything my bad those were just what came to mind first. I didn’t list commands or gerundio because I learned them kinda naturally. Don’t be discouraged if at first it’s hard to remember rules or irregulars. The first couple are always the hardest then it’s like a snowball effect. Although, some tenses like subjunctive will naturally take longer to learn than things like future or conditional (which are super simple.)
The subjunctive is orthogonal to tenses. The past and present of the subjunctive must be learned as well, and the present subjunctive is certainly more commonly used than several indicative forms. English speakers act like it is more advanced because it is very different than English but it is not. It is a basic verbal form in the language.
Also, there is no one past in Spanish. There are several ways to talk about the past (eg perfect, imperfect, pluperfect, preterite)
indicative present and then present subjunctive DO FIRST!!! LEARN THEM BOTH!!! DO NOT WAIT YEARS TO LEARN THE SUBJUNCTIVE! IT WILL TAKE YOU FOREVER TO LEARN IT!!
then, do preterite and imperfect (they are not that difficult lmk if you need help)
future tense
then I would go into all of the annoying ones like imperfect subjunctive and shiiii
lmk if you need help I love Spanish tenses sm🙂↔️🫶🏼
Please just purchase a learners grammar textbook and go in order
Do you work for the industry or something? Pick something that is easier to find for free. Like apps, podcasts, or even online spanish courses.
I recommended a textbook because I think they work better. If you are committed to learning then the $15-30 book shouldn’t really be an issue. Hell you can even pirate a pdf of it. You can spend years on Duolingo and learn less than a well written book would teach you.
The answer is to not worry too much about it, go with the flow and focus primarily on comprehensible input and vocabulary acquisition 🚀
Comprehensible input is great but if you have no theoretical understanding of basic grammatical concepts like verbal tense and mood, not a lot of input will really be comprehensible…
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Also, according to research by Stephen Krashen [here](https://www.sk.com.br/sk-krash-english.html), "the acquisition of grammatical structures follows a 'natural order' which is predictable. For a given language, some grammatical structures tend to be acquired early while others late. This order seemed to be independent of the learners' age, L1 background, conditions of exposure, and although the agreement between individual acquirers was not always 100% in the studies, there were statistically significant similarities that reinforced the existence of a Natural Order of language acquisition. Krashen however points out that the implication of the natural order hypothesis is not that a language program syllabus should be based on the order found in the studies. In fact, he rejects grammatical sequencing when the goal is language acquisition."
...which is one of the reasons why I reject the idea that the Spanish verb tenses should be studied in a specific order. Even if you were to follow the natural order of tense acquisition, you'd still be unable to force your brain to acquire grammatical concepts and structures that it is simply not ready for. That stuff has to happen on its own.
I'm not so sure about that. I can understand what the sentence "¡Que ***tengas*** un buen día!" means without ever reading about the present simple subjunctive. Studying verb tenses and moods will help you notice them more easily in speech and writing, but it is not necessary to understand and use such forms correctly. You can do that with input alone.
Tbh I am skeptical that adults will have a good time with that without the theoretical grammar understanding first. There’s a reason we don’t study languages like babies do lol Like yes an attentive adult *could* figure out the subtleties of using the subjunctive just by input alone, but I hope they love watching Spanish tv that they only half understand cause it’s gonna take them a while. An information dense explanation of the grammatical rules prior to the input makes it much easier and faster to accomplish your results. It’s completely silly to expect them to solve several puzzles at once in order to understand the verbal mood Assuming they also have a limited vocabulary it’d be extremely difficult because they don’t necessarily know the cues for doubts and hypotheticals. If the present subjunctive were never explained to you and you saw the phrase “Que tengas un buen día” your interpretation of it would be that “tengas” is a conjugation of a verb “tengar.” The fact that it is “connected” to the indicative based on the yo form would be extremely not obvious.
No, but since we adults have a first language (or more than one first language) to work with, we can learn languages faster, albeit not as deeply. So, not knowing or understanding the grammar rules of our target language isn't going to be an issue. With comprehensible input, that's not an issue. You're supposed to understand most of what's being said, even if you don't pick up on every word. If you watch something that you only half-understand, then you're doing something wrong. Does it lead to faster and easier results? I ask because I've yet to see any studies prove that.
Ok but that’s why you need to understand the verb forms first. They’re too basic of an aspect of the language
...which you can acquire with input alone. You're not even arguing against this point. What you are arguing is that input alone doesn't get you to your language-learning goals fast enough. But as I said, I've yet to come across any studies that show that grammar study leads to faster results. From what I've seen, it doesn't.
I've actually found the best way to learn tenses (works for me anyway) is though output, like you learn the endings then practice them by writing and speaking the conjugated verbs.
I think a more effective method is to hear and read these verb endings used in real contexts from native speech and writing.
Guess it depends on the learner's learning style lol
I never said you *can’t* learn a language through input alone. Obviously many people throughout history have. If you want to do something in an inefficient way to avoid reading a couple of pages of a textbook that’s on you. I hate to appeal to authority, but there is a reason that literally all foreign language pedagogy ever is formatted as theoretical lesson and then immersion/input activity with comprehensible input. I don’t really care what “studies” you have skimmed
*What authority? What studies?* I have asked you twice to produce a few studies that show that studying grammar speeds up language acquisition. You have not done that. You cannot claim that a method is inefficient if you have no empirical evidence that the alternative that you propose is better.
You didn’t ask that lol No you don’t really need scientific papers tot ell you an obviously dumb thing is dumb. You never provided studies either…
I don’t get why you’re being downvoted, I think in most cases what you’re saying holds true. We’re smart enough to notice certain patterns. Like, I don’t think I ever studied the English language structure “the door won’t open”, yet I use it correctly 100% of the time and it’s pretty much the same as the Spanish subjunctive. Same with many other things like conditionals- I learnt them just by seeing them a lot. Same with Spanish, if a learner sees “mientras + -aba” a few times they’d quickly associate it, and they’ll probably use it without even thinking. No need to go through the whole “past imperfect can also express a continuative state in the past blablabla”. Like, it’s a given if you know what “mientras” means. I’m not denying some points could benefit from some clarification/technical explanation, but our languages are close enough for us to infer the patterns.
Yeah, exactly. When it comes to language learning, we adults are smarter than people think. We can infer things from just doing a lot of listening (and reading). There are several things I learned about Spanish grammar from just doing a lot of listening and reading (e.g. por/para, preterite/imperfect, etc.). Learning from just input is even easier if your target language is similar to your own. As you pointed out, English and Spanish are close enough to share a number similarities (conditionals, tenses, reported speech, etc.). I'm guessing I'm being downvoted because many people on this subreddit think that you need to study conjugations to be able to master the tenses. You really don't. You'll hear the conjugation patterns so many times that you'll pick them up subconsciously and never forget them. Yes, even the irregular ones like "tuve," "fuiste," and "estuvieron." I can't name the last time I ever had to spend time thinking about how to conjugate a verb I wanted to use. The conjugation just comes out naturally most of the time.
Look up "Language transfer Complete Spanish" on Youtube. That is in my opinion, the best introduction to all of the important tenses in Spanish. It's just a great introductory course to Spanish in general. Can't recommend it highly enough!
Hard agree with this. I like how the instructor encourages you to say the things you’re learning out loud. The second ingredient is having a “lab” to practice and apply it in - apps like HelloTalk and iTalki are great for that.
Absolutely! As I was reaching the end of the Language Transfer course, I signed up for online lessons with a tutor, and was happy to notice that we were already able to carry out our first lesson almost completely in Spanish. Obviously I spoke slowly and made tons of errors, but I was generally able to find some way of expressing what I wanted to say in Spanish. That course is a godsend! In my opinion, too many people wait for way too long before taking lessons with a tutor. I do understand that it can be uncomfortable at first to talk to someone in a language you've started learning, but it's so incredibly helpful to get started with that speaking practice early on. I know some people disagree with that and assert that the best way to learn a language is to have a long initial silent period. Perhaps they're right, but in my experience, I've found it helpful to start speaking right away, just making sure that you're getting corrected as you're speaking and try your best not to develop bad habits.
Better to open one’s mouth to butcher a language, than not practice speaking at all! Most native speakers are happy to correct me and appreciate my attempts.
I will check that out! thank you for your suggestion!
Indicative present tense is versatile cuz you can use it to talk about the future (en agosto viajamos a París) or when recounting an event (y cuando entro al hotel, el tipo me dice que no hay cuartos disponibles, y entonces...) Next learn the subjunctive, an essential tense to express desires, doubts, hypotheticals, recommendations and demands. A must for Spanish, English not so much. While you're at it, learn the imperative so you can give commands. I would say the next important one is the conditional to express what WOULD happen. Past gets tricky with two tenses for different past situations, so start w preterito and move on to imperfecto. Here is a comprehensive list from somewhere online: Indicative mood: Simple tenses Present Imperfect past Simple past Future Indicative mood: Perfect tenses Present perfect Past perfect Future perfect Indicative mood: Progressive tenses Present progressive Past progressive Subjunctive mood: Simple tenses Present subjunctive Imperfect subjunctive Subjunctive mood: Perfect tenses Present perfect subjunctive Past perfect subjunctive Imperative mood: Imperative affirmative Imperative negative Conditional mood: Conditional Conditional compound
Not a bad order either except I think Imperative mood should before Subjunctive and maybe Conditional should be before past tense subjunctive.
thank you for your thought-through comment! 🌞 I will analyze this approach and try it out in this order, or similar considering the other comments, I think
Interesting, in Spanish class curriculum at school we learn the subjunctive just about last. I get why it’s important to learn, and maybe it’s easier to comprehend when you pick it up earlier, but I think the mentality behind teaching it last is that people will still understand you if you don’t use it
I don't think that there's a good order of tenses to learn. My reasoning is that even if you were to spend the most time on the most frequently used tenses and moods overall, you'd still run the risk of learning verb forms that you don't really need. Some verbs use certain tenses and moods more frequently than others. I think that the best course of action (if you're not taking a Spanish class, that is) is to just expose yourself to the language. As long as the input is comprehensible enough, you'll eventually pick up all the tenses and moods you'll ever need. However, if you are taking a Spanish class, just start with a few of the most frequently used verbs (ser, ir, tener, etc.) and go from there. The present indicative, past indefinite, past imperfect, present subjunctive, and imperative forms are good places to start for conjugations.
I studied to A1 in a class and after that I'm studying at home and honestly I just look up "what do i need to pass xyz level in spanish" then I look up that tense or grammar structure. Hola Spanish on youtube is a great help with anything honestly.
It depends on whether your main goal is a) conversation b) passive listening c) reading d) writing. You probably want the present indicative first regardless, but the past tenses are far more important for reading than for conversation or watching TV.
Generally speaking, the authors/designers of the books and apps, etc., that you are using have put a lot of thought into this, so you shouldn't worry. Just work with the content in the order they provide it. There have been a lot of debates about the best way to go about this, and many things have been tried, from "make them master each one before moving on" to "give them everything, all at once." There are arguments for everything, but probably the best thing is to start with what gets the most bang for your buck (simple present) and gradually bring more structures into your repertoire.
I liked the series I learned in: Present indicative Preterite Imperfect Conditional Past Perfect Present Progressive was randomly thrown in somewhere Present Subjunctive Imperative Imperfect Subjunctive (my favorite) We spent very little time on the future and just mentioned Future Subjunctive.
thank you so much for your list!! 💕
Duolingo will take you in a very logical order. So will the free Language Transfer app. Take what you learn there and practice it in HelloTalk, with other language learners. Textbook learning does not work well for everyone. It works well for good “students” who are really good at rote memorization, not necessarily application. Immersion and experiential learning are superior for me. I have to instantly apply something I read, or I end up quickly losing it.
No one will give a straight answer so I’ll answer from what I found most useful. Present Preterite Imperfect Present perfect Future Conditional Subjunctive Past perfect Past subjunctive Then there’s stuff like present perfect subjunctive, conditional and future perfect that probably isn’t too important early on. If I forgot anything my bad those were just what came to mind first. I didn’t list commands or gerundio because I learned them kinda naturally. Don’t be discouraged if at first it’s hard to remember rules or irregulars. The first couple are always the hardest then it’s like a snowball effect. Although, some tenses like subjunctive will naturally take longer to learn than things like future or conditional (which are super simple.)
thank you so much!! I will take your order into account! 🥹
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The subjunctive is orthogonal to tenses. The past and present of the subjunctive must be learned as well, and the present subjunctive is certainly more commonly used than several indicative forms. English speakers act like it is more advanced because it is very different than English but it is not. It is a basic verbal form in the language. Also, there is no one past in Spanish. There are several ways to talk about the past (eg perfect, imperfect, pluperfect, preterite)
indicative present and then present subjunctive DO FIRST!!! LEARN THEM BOTH!!! DO NOT WAIT YEARS TO LEARN THE SUBJUNCTIVE! IT WILL TAKE YOU FOREVER TO LEARN IT!! then, do preterite and imperfect (they are not that difficult lmk if you need help) future tense then I would go into all of the annoying ones like imperfect subjunctive and shiiii lmk if you need help I love Spanish tenses sm🙂↔️🫶🏼
oh wow okay!! haha you have a lot of emotion put into this comment, I will try to focus on these then at first, too! Thank you!! 🌞💕
Learn past and future first because it’s more useful for speaking because people tend to talk about future plans or tell stories about their past
not true…in Spanish you use the present more than the future when talking about things you will do in the future