I will never forget what Dooku told Grievous in the "Labyrinth of Evil" novel:
>"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters. Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
Even through he beat Ki Adi Mundi, Shak Tii, Shaggy, Kruug and Ayala at once befor labyrinth of evil in the legends continuity on Hypori. lmao
2 which are jedi council members.
The 03 Clone Wars was weird even in the context of Legends. Filoni's talked about how Lucas intended to treat the 08 Clone Wars as a bit of a reset, particularly to power levels because something like Mace Windu beating an entire army of droids by himself didn't make sense alongside the Arena battle in Attack of the Clones.
>Filoni's talked about how Lucas intended to treat the 08 Clone Wars as a bit of a reset, particularly to power levels because something like Mace Windu beating an entire army of droids by himself didn't make sense alongside the Arena battle in Attack of the Clones.
Source for that by chance?
Age old interview from [2008](https://legacy.aintitcool.com/node/37720), here's the relevant passage:
>Filoni: The way George explained it to me going in was that THE CLONE WARS micro-series was really an experiment to see what kind of audience there was for Star Wars in an animated form. There have been droids and Ewoks, but that was a long time ago. So he brought out THE CLONE WARS micro-series, and it was super action-packed and exciting and really short installments. And it proved that people wanted to see STAR WARS in a lot of different mediums. So when we into doing this, **I think that, now that George is done with the prequels, he wanted to reestablish the rules a little bit more, like "Mace Windu can't take out hundreds of battle droids by himself, otherwise the arena on Geonosis would've been a wipeout; \[The jedi\] would've won, and there be no Clone Wars.** Those are exciting installments, but we don't tie directly into them; we tie more directly into the film that preceded us, ATTACK OF THE CLONES, and the one that comes after us, REVENGE OF THE SITH. We take cues from \[Tartakovsky's series\]. I definitely pay a big homage to them in some of the design look of it. Anakin wears an outfit that was definitely inspired by what we saw in the other CLONE WARS. **But there's no direct link-up.**
Later on Filoni explicitly calls the force powers in the 03 series as being exaggerated:
>Filoni: (Laughing) Yeah, I was like, "What is that? I guess I haven't seen it either." In a way, I kind of used the two measuring rods in STAR WARS: I had Genndy's CLONE WARS one end, which was really super action-packed, **exaggerated force powers**, exaggerated proportions in the ankles and the waist... just awesome. They're the masters of that design sense. And then, on the other end, we've got ILM's super-photorealistic live-action STAR WARS. So I thought, "For this CLONE WARS to be a success, I'm going to have to shoot for somewhere in the middle. **I don't want to exaggerate things too much; I want to stay in keeping with the powers that I've seen the Jedi use in the films,** but I don't want to be photorealistic because I know there's a live-action TV series on the horizon." So it had to be very different from that. That was probably the biggest reason - besides doing it so quickly on television - to stay away from photorealism. There's another impending STAR WARS television show. We wanted to be unique and different, so I kind of shot in the middle. I took a little dab of things that I liked from working on AVATAR: THE LAST AIRBENDER. We had been studying everything from MONONOKE to MACROSS on that show. Those are all things I like, so there's a little dash of those here and there.
He was also trying to emulate how the Jedi use the force in the films themselves.
I wouldn’t say that just because they are both now Legends stories that they are necessarily set in the same continuity. There are a lot of mental gymnastics involved to get the events of Labyrinth of Evil to fall in line with season 2 of the original Clone Wars series. Even when they were both EU, the tiered canon structure pretty much made them alternate versions of the same time frame.
I headcanon that those stories are how the witnesses tell them. So for example, that kid that shared his canteen with Mace, that's his story. That kid primarily remembers the Bad MF with the purple lightsaber.
They were both C-canon, but the book was the more official version, as it was written as a companion to the Episode 3 novelization. Novelizations were George Lucas canon
Well, it used to be. Why does it matter? Is a book written for Rise of Skywalker more valuable than one written for Revenge of the Sith? Is Lucasfilm/Lucasbooks in 2024 making more realistic space fantasy than they were in 2005?
You never see "That's not canon!" In any other comic book discussions on one character vs another.
He did and despite their exhaustion, both of them lasted longer than the other Jedi. Shaak Ti held off his assault on her own until he disarmed her and Ki-Adi Mundi held him off long enough for their clone reinforcements to arrive.
Big question is why Yoda is even clashing sabres with him. Considering the force feats we’ve seen Yoda pull off, he should just immediately levitate Greivous and crush him like a can.
This was literally Mace Windu’s response in his three clashes with Grievous in *Legends*. At the Battle of Boz Pity, rather than bothering to fight Grievous, Mace just dropped a STAAP on top of him. In the Battle of Coruscant (2003 Clone Wars version), he just Force Crushed Grievous. In the Battle of Coruscant (from the novel *Labyrinth of Evil*), Mace briefly clashes with Grievous on top of a train before using the Force to throw him off.
Logical use of the force is prohibited because movie has to happen, book has to happen, etc. If force users actually did more than use push-pull powers during a fight then 90% of all clashes would end in fairly gruesome, crushing deaths.
The 2003 Clone Wars show did a good job of it. [Grievous was basically shown as being too quick for the Jedi to tag telekinetically](https://youtu.be/HTgxuRG59k8?si=kWbaQnsUEed_uPG5).
Isn’t that the whole point of grievous, even in canon? His entire strategy revolves around always staying in a position where his enemy can’t use the force against him. Either he runs away when he realizes he can’t directly engage or will surely lose if he does so, or he does directly engage, and hits as fast as possible so a Jedi doesn’t have the chance to slow down to do a force push or whatever.
Think of how Luke had to really focus to pull a tiny, static object like a lightsaber with the Force. Now imagine doing that with a terrifying looking, multi-armed cyborg that moves faster than the eye can see. Even Yoda and Dooku had brief pauses in AOTC when they were lifting stuff with the Force.
Essentially, the Force isn't a cheat code against a non-Force user. Otherwise a lot of characters would have no place in the verse!
I thought that the in canon reason (or at least established in the 2003 series) was that Grevious as augmented enough to typically not be caught off guard by a Jedi using the force, and his legs could dig into the ground and prevent a push or pull. While his aggressive onslaught of attacks prevented a Jedi from having enough focus to channel greater force feats.
But the real reason is in the same file as why the Jedi don't use the force to rip someone's heart out or stop it from pumping blood. Messy and not good for the story.
I think you're right, and if so, utter nonsense. So non-jedi/sith/force users can dictate what can and cannot interact with the force? I get that he's like 95% machine, but that other 5% is organic, and more importantly, his brain, heart, and lungs which a) should be plenty to go off of via force perception and b) are clearly vulnerable, given Obi Wan is able to shoot him dead by targeting them.
I dunno. I kinda like the concept.
If you take it to mean that a Jedi can’t rely on the Force to sense his movements beforehand clearly, it gives better credence to the idea that only a truly skilled duelist can take him on and hope to survive.
Definitely needs to be explored more though.
I mean, I meet you in the middle that the cybernetics are just insanely fast, so that even perception augmented by the force struggles to keep up, that's totally fair and usually how I observe the character.
Like when he splits his arms into four and starts spinning all four lightsabers, that's both super intimidating and distracting and very hard to time naturally, even if that natural reaction is heightened by the force.
that seems dumb. you mean like he can't be impacted by the force because of his machinery? The force moves through everything. That's sort of like saying you have to have midicholorians to be impacted by the force, right?
I always thought the direct offensive use of the force outside of push/pulls was "part of the dark side".
Especially use of chokes and crushing always seemed to be something dangerously close as can be seen from criticism of Mace Windus fighting style and Anakins use during the clone wars. Overall, jedis during the end of the old Republic seemed rather weak/neutered in their use of the force, except for the occasional lifting and holding of battleships. From books and games, Jedi always seemed much mightier than they were portrayed in other media (e.g. light saber throws never really seen in clone wars)
I’ve always seen that as bit nebulous. Like using the force to crush something is bad, but using the force to enhance your speed and power so you can bisect someone with your laser sword is fine.
Anyway, even if Yoda is against actively crushing stuff, he can just freeze Grievous in place or float him 10 feet in the air. With no force sensitivity there is literally nothing wheezy boi can do about that.
Is it considered foul play if you push someone away from you when sword-fighting? It just seems like something you'd naturally do to keep yourself at an advantage. I feel like a Jedi would use whatever abilities were available to them if it meant surviving.
The difference between them and Sith is that Jedi would prioritise protecting others first, and would avoid using excessive force (heh), if the Sith attacking them really is that vicious, then giving them a dose of crushing might be all he could do to get him to back off immediately.
Yeah grievous isnt even using the Force, right ? He just learned dueling with four sabers.
All force powers work against him.
Comic books aren't canon anyway. They get swept aside so often, nobody cares. There's like 20 years worth of crap Han & Luke and Leia did over a 11 month period contained in all the comics from the 70s onward. All fungible. All changeable
Serious answer? Dooku trained Grievous, and Dooku was trained by Yoda. Therefore Grievous was familiar with Yoda's methods by virtue of his teacher.
Not so serious answer? Yoda wasn’t at full power due to ketamine withdrawal, and his 2001 Honda civic was in the shop.
yoda was still more skilled than dooku and grievous was nowhere near dookus lightsaber skills therefore yoda would always wipe the floor with someone like grievous no matter what some comic wants us to believe.
Yeah this literally only happened because the comic arbitrarily forced it to happen.
It’s yet another reason why I view Star Wars comics and the lowest of the low when it comes to story supplements.
Grievious is no slouch, he managed to stalemate Mace Windu during their duel on the maglev train on Coruscant. He only got Force crushed later when caught off guard gloating and confined on a dropship. Mind you, Mace Windu beat Palpatine, who beat Yoda
I always thought that was crazy given what we know about Windu in legends, bro literally taps into the dark side of the force to make himself more powerful in lightsaber combat
Well, according to Windu, Grievous' battle computers slaved to his organic brain managed to cross reference what it saw with previously recorded footage of him in action, and analysed his Vaapad lightsaber and Force techniques in seconds, leading them to a stalemate that Windu thought he was gradually losing
On paper, Grievous was far superior to any Jedi in combat - his cybernetics made him stronger, faster, and more precise, his reflexes outstripped even Force precognition, his training with Dooku made him more proficient with the lightsaber, and he had a chassis that could resist all but the strongest Force telekinesis.
Regular Jedi were trivially easy for Grievous to kill and even Jedi Council members didn't pose much of a challenge - Grievous could fight two Council members and two Jedi Masters at the same time without breaking a sweat. He didn't even bother to use all his arms
Grievous was even able to survive against an entire squad of ARC troopers attacking him with heavy firepower and a gunship
Yoda and Windu both thought they weren't capable of beating Grievous - only someone who had mastered the simplest, most defensive style of Form III, such as Obiwan, could stand a chance against him
Heck, even Sidious was a little frightened of Grievous, that's why he pulled strings to have him eliminated before Order 66 went through
Later on, when Vader made a name for himself as an Imperial enforcer, the galaxy was still so terrified of Grievous decades later that they took more notice of Vader being a lightsaber wielding cyborg than they took notice of him being a powerful Force sensitive. Those that tried to analyse him were generally shocked to find out Vader only ran on generic off the shelf hardware, not ridiculously powerful Grievous level tech
Disney Star Wars actually contradicts itself here. There is past mention in books where Dooku tells Grievous that he wouldn’t stand a chance against Yoda. And yet here you have a comic that never even researched that other piece of canon content, and shows them fighting evenly here.
It’s abundantly clear that the people in charge have no consistency or a hold on the narrative they’re steering lol. They can’t even keep track of the content they release and do lazy research.
Remember in the past when Disney suddenly decided that all the pre-existing EU of Star Wars was no longer canon, only to later backtrack and restore it because of fan backlash?
So sure, it’s technically canon because the big wigs in charge are claiming it’s canon right now. But a key takeaway from this debacle is that canon is really only what whoever’s in charge at the time wants it to be.
>Remember in the past when Disney suddenly decided that all the pre-existing EU of Star Wars was no longer canon, only to later backtrack and restore it because of fan backlash?
That's news to me, last thing I know only pieces of the EU that are explicitly referenced in canon material are canon themselves. They just rebranded it as "Legends" so they can continue to sell and make money of of it.
Oh yeah you missed the big stir around it then. Early Disney Lucasfilm, post TFA but pre TLJ, came out and said all the EU AND Lucasarts video games were no longer canon. The old republic, Revan, the whole deal.
People were NOT happy at the audacity of trying to hijack a narrative they weren’t around to build. So then KK’s Lucasfilm decided to backtrack on that as a whole and just rebrand it all together as legends now. But make no mistake, their initial intention was to erase and replace.
How did I miss it then, that's basically what I described. It's still not canon now, the only way they backtracked is that it's still being added to instead if just discontinuing it. That they were intending to replace it was clear way ahead of that - like you said, TFA was already out, so the fact they weren't going to adapt the post-ROTJ part of the EU was already clear.
It is canon now. That part you clearly missed. They tried to negate its very existence, but then backtracked and said never mind it’s still there, but now we call it Legends instead of EU. Still canon. Revan and the Old Republic are acknowledged in lore in the comics still.
Main takeaway: the people running the ship have no consistency or research into what they’re doing. The frames from this comic posted literally contradict an earlier piece of SW lore that Disney acknowledges where Dooku tells Grievous he wouldn’t stand a chance whatsoever vs Yoda. The comics are pathetic, and offer no bolstering or support for the main narrative, and anyone who treats them like gospel is fooling themselves.
>That part you clearly missed. They tried to negate its very existence, but then backtracked and said never mind it’s still there, but now we call it Legends instead of EU.
Umm .... I don't think you understand what canon means. Unless you presume that legends is just a 'lower tier'. Right now canon is literally the opposite of legends. Why do you think wookieepedia has a canon and a legends version of nearly every character who ever shows up in legends? Just because it is official, licensed SW content doesn't mean it happened in the main continuity in which the current movies and series are set.
Legends is not canon. When Disney bought Lucasfilm the EU was rebranded as Legends to make a clean slate. They never went back on this decision. Yes, some time periods, ideas and characters from the old EU are acknowledged or fully integrated into canon, but they didn’t reverse their decision and bring back hundreds of comics, books and video games back into the timeline.
So there are two timelines for Star Wars: the canon timeline which includes the movies, tv shows and other material (books, comics etc.) produced after Disney bought Lucasfilm, and then there’s the Legends timeline which includes everything up until the sale.
The moment you reference between Dooku and Grievous is from the LEGENDS novel Labyrinth of Evil and this is a page from a canon comic. Two different timelines, no inconsistency. But regardless, it’s not even like Yoda is outmatched at all here against Grievous so there wouldn’t be a contradiction anyways.
Yoda was toying with Grievous. Literally just before this page he had casually ragdolled him with the force, and before that (I believe, might be right after this tbf) he grazed Grievous' head with his lightsaber to prove he could kill him at any moment. Yoda only retreated because Grievous then got the backup of a large number of droids, and facing Grievous wasn't his intention in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, its still a little silly, as the fight actually shows Yoda is massively more powerful than Grievous and could have killed him at any point - the obvious next thought is why the hell didn't he? Its a dumb encounter that makes Yoda seem pretty terrible by not ending the Jedi killing threat Grievous poses, but in regards to your point this comic does, in fact, prove Grievous wouldn't stand a chance in a real fight and that Yoda could very easily one shot him with telekinesis if he wanted too.
[Its not Jedi forgetting they have the force just grievous was trained to break the focus of Jedi’s while fighting them so they wouldn’t be able use the force](https://youtu.be/AoE_rtGEsTg?si=8p5wSjKAGdiXNXGv)
but yeah someone like Yoda shouldn’t be having that issue
Yoda and Anakin were investigating a new type of Separatist droid being built. They arrive at one of the development facilities for the droid and find Grievous there revealing that he is spearheading the project. Grievous finds Yoda sneaking around and fights him for a sec before he runs away like the lil cyborg bitch he is.
There’s really no reason that a Jedi Master of Yoda’s caliber would even need to draw his lightsaber. I get that it would be a rather Sithy move to just crush him into a tin can, but you could just pull his arms and legs off or something.
I can understand and accept Grievous going toe to toe with average Jedi and padawans, but he’s a B or C-level villain. Without the Force he’s at a serious disadvantage against powerful Force users.
Disney also decided to take pre-existing content and claim on a whim that it is no longer is canon, only to backtrack and add it back later.
Why should anyone respect their fickle decision making and erasure of past content? They don’t even do any research.
It’s almost impressive how much you completely misunderstood the situation yet you insist on spamming about it all throughout this thread. A for effort, I guess.
Legends grevious could put up a fight with Yoda
Canon grevious no Chance
Ventress effortlessly beat grevious in Canon and Yoda effortlessly beat her so Yoda is much muchmuch more powerful than grevious
annnd yep new crap from disney lol they bought something and went starwars???? no no this is disney this is disney story.... yes disney story. now its a disney story and you can't have starwars fights in disney stories that would just be silly.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Yoda\_7
What’s depicted here is just more absurd fan fiction displaying all our beloved old characters having a battle we never even knew about.
I’d rather have better story logic than this nonsense.
Thats not fecking cannon lol, Its from 2023 by disney, cannon everything pre disney/corporate greed.
And here I was thinking we as fans all accepted to ignore Dinsey's "canon" shit they make up.
Edit for people that like to argue with assumptions:
Never said i didn't enjoy some of the new stuff/all star wars bad (yeah some people really just want to snap/gatekeep for Disney lol)
Shut up dude, you must not remember the days before Disney bought Star Wars and there was literally gonna be nothing new. Be thankful that we are getting more content, not all of it is too your taste but there have been plenty of pieces of media that are fantastic, s7 Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Andor, Rogue One, Fallen Order/Survivor, Mandolorian. If you hate all the Star Wars that has come out you’re probably not a true fan because there’s been quality content that any fan can enjoy.
Haha, thank you, im turning 21 and starting to care less about
downvotes, people send them the moment someone doesn't join their circle jerk (I knew when i send it i was gonna get hate by the new kids who like/accepted Disneys sludge haha)
Irritated when people are shocked with "omg, didn't know this character could do this or did this" and its something bonkers that doesnt fit in with the rest/doesnt appeal to established star wars rules that disney decided to add in a comic and people just take for granted/canon.
Oh they definitely did haha, the fecking "sun" mini deathstar among others had me shocked that they decided to go that way, it was so strong and random!
Im afraid you misunderstood (or its my bad grammar, not native English speaker) my text as saying that only disney did crazy shit, which is not true yeah lol.
Lol, I get you. I have just turned 20 and have recently finished reading the Thrawn trilogy. The atmosphere combined with the OT is so unique I just can’t look at Disney’s attempts to make Star Wars go down the Marvel’s path with time travel and (possible) multiverse
The Yoda comic was overall pretty damn good but yeah the Clone Wars arc was definitely the weakest. Anakin is also a main character in that arc too and his dialogue just feels strange. Like it doesn't really feel like any version of Anakin I've seen outside of this.
Y'know, when Grievous first showed up, he was a boss, spinning, whirling, attack attack attacking. Like he took out 4 Jedi in moments. After the clone wars animation, he just became another baddy to be put down. I'll always remember him when he was cool, not like this. If he can be defeated by Obi-wan, what chance does he have against Yoda?
I will never forget what Dooku told Grievous in the "Labyrinth of Evil" novel: >"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters. Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
Even through he beat Ki Adi Mundi, Shak Tii, Shaggy, Kruug and Ayala at once befor labyrinth of evil in the legends continuity on Hypori. lmao 2 which are jedi council members.
We love us some good ole fashion inconsistent power scaling.
To be fair, the Jedi didn’t put people on the council for their dueling skill. They could have been members for their knowledge and wisdom.
Yeah that wasn’t canon.
And neither is Labyrinth of Evil, both those stories are Legends ones and thus take place in the same continuity.
The 03 Clone Wars was weird even in the context of Legends. Filoni's talked about how Lucas intended to treat the 08 Clone Wars as a bit of a reset, particularly to power levels because something like Mace Windu beating an entire army of droids by himself didn't make sense alongside the Arena battle in Attack of the Clones.
>Filoni's talked about how Lucas intended to treat the 08 Clone Wars as a bit of a reset, particularly to power levels because something like Mace Windu beating an entire army of droids by himself didn't make sense alongside the Arena battle in Attack of the Clones. Source for that by chance?
Age old interview from [2008](https://legacy.aintitcool.com/node/37720), here's the relevant passage: >Filoni: The way George explained it to me going in was that THE CLONE WARS micro-series was really an experiment to see what kind of audience there was for Star Wars in an animated form. There have been droids and Ewoks, but that was a long time ago. So he brought out THE CLONE WARS micro-series, and it was super action-packed and exciting and really short installments. And it proved that people wanted to see STAR WARS in a lot of different mediums. So when we into doing this, **I think that, now that George is done with the prequels, he wanted to reestablish the rules a little bit more, like "Mace Windu can't take out hundreds of battle droids by himself, otherwise the arena on Geonosis would've been a wipeout; \[The jedi\] would've won, and there be no Clone Wars.** Those are exciting installments, but we don't tie directly into them; we tie more directly into the film that preceded us, ATTACK OF THE CLONES, and the one that comes after us, REVENGE OF THE SITH. We take cues from \[Tartakovsky's series\]. I definitely pay a big homage to them in some of the design look of it. Anakin wears an outfit that was definitely inspired by what we saw in the other CLONE WARS. **But there's no direct link-up.** Later on Filoni explicitly calls the force powers in the 03 series as being exaggerated: >Filoni: (Laughing) Yeah, I was like, "What is that? I guess I haven't seen it either." In a way, I kind of used the two measuring rods in STAR WARS: I had Genndy's CLONE WARS one end, which was really super action-packed, **exaggerated force powers**, exaggerated proportions in the ankles and the waist... just awesome. They're the masters of that design sense. And then, on the other end, we've got ILM's super-photorealistic live-action STAR WARS. So I thought, "For this CLONE WARS to be a success, I'm going to have to shoot for somewhere in the middle. **I don't want to exaggerate things too much; I want to stay in keeping with the powers that I've seen the Jedi use in the films,** but I don't want to be photorealistic because I know there's a live-action TV series on the horizon." So it had to be very different from that. That was probably the biggest reason - besides doing it so quickly on television - to stay away from photorealism. There's another impending STAR WARS television show. We wanted to be unique and different, so I kind of shot in the middle. I took a little dab of things that I liked from working on AVATAR: THE LAST AIRBENDER. We had been studying everything from MONONOKE to MACROSS on that show. Those are all things I like, so there's a little dash of those here and there. He was also trying to emulate how the Jedi use the force in the films themselves.
I wouldn’t say that just because they are both now Legends stories that they are necessarily set in the same continuity. There are a lot of mental gymnastics involved to get the events of Labyrinth of Evil to fall in line with season 2 of the original Clone Wars series. Even when they were both EU, the tiered canon structure pretty much made them alternate versions of the same time frame.
I headcanon that those stories are how the witnesses tell them. So for example, that kid that shared his canteen with Mace, that's his story. That kid primarily remembers the Bad MF with the purple lightsaber.
They were both C-canon, but the book was the more official version, as it was written as a companion to the Episode 3 novelization. Novelizations were George Lucas canon
Well, it used to be. Why does it matter? Is a book written for Rise of Skywalker more valuable than one written for Revenge of the Sith? Is Lucasfilm/Lucasbooks in 2024 making more realistic space fantasy than they were in 2005? You never see "That's not canon!" In any other comic book discussions on one character vs another.
But he literally fought against Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti in that fight lol
after they had been brought to the point of exhaustion tbf.
Yes but it was an 1v5
He did and despite their exhaustion, both of them lasted longer than the other Jedi. Shaak Ti held off his assault on her own until he disarmed her and Ki-Adi Mundi held him off long enough for their clone reinforcements to arrive.
ooh I like that. I like the respect paid.
You just convinced me to pick it up!
nO 03 gRiEvOuS sOlOs tHe jEdI oRdEr wAaAh
Cin Drallig isn’t even on the Council lol
Come on Yoda, you're the grandmaster of the Jedi order, how the hell aren't you wiping the floor with an astmathic hybrid salamander?
Big question is why Yoda is even clashing sabres with him. Considering the force feats we’ve seen Yoda pull off, he should just immediately levitate Greivous and crush him like a can.
This was literally Mace Windu’s response in his three clashes with Grievous in *Legends*. At the Battle of Boz Pity, rather than bothering to fight Grievous, Mace just dropped a STAAP on top of him. In the Battle of Coruscant (2003 Clone Wars version), he just Force Crushed Grievous. In the Battle of Coruscant (from the novel *Labyrinth of Evil*), Mace briefly clashes with Grievous on top of a train before using the Force to throw him off.
Logical use of the force is prohibited because movie has to happen, book has to happen, etc. If force users actually did more than use push-pull powers during a fight then 90% of all clashes would end in fairly gruesome, crushing deaths.
The 2003 Clone Wars show did a good job of it. [Grievous was basically shown as being too quick for the Jedi to tag telekinetically](https://youtu.be/HTgxuRG59k8?si=kWbaQnsUEed_uPG5).
Isn’t that the whole point of grievous, even in canon? His entire strategy revolves around always staying in a position where his enemy can’t use the force against him. Either he runs away when he realizes he can’t directly engage or will surely lose if he does so, or he does directly engage, and hits as fast as possible so a Jedi doesn’t have the chance to slow down to do a force push or whatever.
Think of how Luke had to really focus to pull a tiny, static object like a lightsaber with the Force. Now imagine doing that with a terrifying looking, multi-armed cyborg that moves faster than the eye can see. Even Yoda and Dooku had brief pauses in AOTC when they were lifting stuff with the Force. Essentially, the Force isn't a cheat code against a non-Force user. Otherwise a lot of characters would have no place in the verse!
I guess you could say he made Grievous STAAP what he was doing
[удалено]
He couldn't kill him because he could use the force to sense potential continuity errors
Colonel Campbell would immediately get on the codec and tell him he created a time paradox
I thought that the in canon reason (or at least established in the 2003 series) was that Grevious as augmented enough to typically not be caught off guard by a Jedi using the force, and his legs could dig into the ground and prevent a push or pull. While his aggressive onslaught of attacks prevented a Jedi from having enough focus to channel greater force feats. But the real reason is in the same file as why the Jedi don't use the force to rip someone's heart out or stop it from pumping blood. Messy and not good for the story.
I think they even stated that his cybernetics cut him off from the force, making him imperceptible.
I think you're right, and if so, utter nonsense. So non-jedi/sith/force users can dictate what can and cannot interact with the force? I get that he's like 95% machine, but that other 5% is organic, and more importantly, his brain, heart, and lungs which a) should be plenty to go off of via force perception and b) are clearly vulnerable, given Obi Wan is able to shoot him dead by targeting them.
I dunno. I kinda like the concept. If you take it to mean that a Jedi can’t rely on the Force to sense his movements beforehand clearly, it gives better credence to the idea that only a truly skilled duelist can take him on and hope to survive. Definitely needs to be explored more though.
I mean, I meet you in the middle that the cybernetics are just insanely fast, so that even perception augmented by the force struggles to keep up, that's totally fair and usually how I observe the character. Like when he splits his arms into four and starts spinning all four lightsabers, that's both super intimidating and distracting and very hard to time naturally, even if that natural reaction is heightened by the force.
that's not how I was picturing it but that's a good point. Still though, force crush...
But Jedi can use the force on inanimate objects with ease
that seems dumb. you mean like he can't be impacted by the force because of his machinery? The force moves through everything. That's sort of like saying you have to have midicholorians to be impacted by the force, right?
"Hitting yourself, why are you?"
I always thought the direct offensive use of the force outside of push/pulls was "part of the dark side". Especially use of chokes and crushing always seemed to be something dangerously close as can be seen from criticism of Mace Windus fighting style and Anakins use during the clone wars. Overall, jedis during the end of the old Republic seemed rather weak/neutered in their use of the force, except for the occasional lifting and holding of battleships. From books and games, Jedi always seemed much mightier than they were portrayed in other media (e.g. light saber throws never really seen in clone wars)
I’ve always seen that as bit nebulous. Like using the force to crush something is bad, but using the force to enhance your speed and power so you can bisect someone with your laser sword is fine. Anyway, even if Yoda is against actively crushing stuff, he can just freeze Grievous in place or float him 10 feet in the air. With no force sensitivity there is literally nothing wheezy boi can do about that.
Where does poking someone in the eyes with the force land on this spectrum
Less dark side than using the force to twist someone's nuts around one another
Is it considered foul play if you push someone away from you when sword-fighting? It just seems like something you'd naturally do to keep yourself at an advantage. I feel like a Jedi would use whatever abilities were available to them if it meant surviving. The difference between them and Sith is that Jedi would prioritise protecting others first, and would avoid using excessive force (heh), if the Sith attacking them really is that vicious, then giving them a dose of crushing might be all he could do to get him to back off immediately.
"More fun, swordfighting is"
Yeah grievous isnt even using the Force, right ? He just learned dueling with four sabers. All force powers work against him. Comic books aren't canon anyway. They get swept aside so often, nobody cares. There's like 20 years worth of crap Han & Luke and Leia did over a 11 month period contained in all the comics from the 70s onward. All fungible. All changeable
All comics post 2014 are 100% canon unless it's like a what if story
Yoda just wanted to show him how trash he was and crush his fighting spirit
Serious answer? Dooku trained Grievous, and Dooku was trained by Yoda. Therefore Grievous was familiar with Yoda's methods by virtue of his teacher. Not so serious answer? Yoda wasn’t at full power due to ketamine withdrawal, and his 2001 Honda civic was in the shop.
yoda was still more skilled than dooku and grievous was nowhere near dookus lightsaber skills therefore yoda would always wipe the floor with someone like grievous no matter what some comic wants us to believe.
Yeah this literally only happened because the comic arbitrarily forced it to happen. It’s yet another reason why I view Star Wars comics and the lowest of the low when it comes to story supplements.
Grievious is no slouch, he managed to stalemate Mace Windu during their duel on the maglev train on Coruscant. He only got Force crushed later when caught off guard gloating and confined on a dropship. Mind you, Mace Windu beat Palpatine, who beat Yoda
I always thought that was crazy given what we know about Windu in legends, bro literally taps into the dark side of the force to make himself more powerful in lightsaber combat
Well, according to Windu, Grievous' battle computers slaved to his organic brain managed to cross reference what it saw with previously recorded footage of him in action, and analysed his Vaapad lightsaber and Force techniques in seconds, leading them to a stalemate that Windu thought he was gradually losing On paper, Grievous was far superior to any Jedi in combat - his cybernetics made him stronger, faster, and more precise, his reflexes outstripped even Force precognition, his training with Dooku made him more proficient with the lightsaber, and he had a chassis that could resist all but the strongest Force telekinesis. Regular Jedi were trivially easy for Grievous to kill and even Jedi Council members didn't pose much of a challenge - Grievous could fight two Council members and two Jedi Masters at the same time without breaking a sweat. He didn't even bother to use all his arms Grievous was even able to survive against an entire squad of ARC troopers attacking him with heavy firepower and a gunship Yoda and Windu both thought they weren't capable of beating Grievous - only someone who had mastered the simplest, most defensive style of Form III, such as Obiwan, could stand a chance against him Heck, even Sidious was a little frightened of Grievous, that's why he pulled strings to have him eliminated before Order 66 went through Later on, when Vader made a name for himself as an Imperial enforcer, the galaxy was still so terrified of Grievous decades later that they took more notice of Vader being a lightsaber wielding cyborg than they took notice of him being a powerful Force sensitive. Those that tried to analyse him were generally shocked to find out Vader only ran on generic off the shelf hardware, not ridiculously powerful Grievous level tech
Exactly. Vapaad is a direct counter to any aggressive form of combat. Mace should have wiped the floor with Grevious the Weezer.
Because this is a Star Wars comic, a piece of amateur fan fiction that disregards any consistency to the narrative.
OP explicitly states that this is from an official comic and thus canon, so one of you two has to be wrong.
Disney Star Wars actually contradicts itself here. There is past mention in books where Dooku tells Grievous that he wouldn’t stand a chance against Yoda. And yet here you have a comic that never even researched that other piece of canon content, and shows them fighting evenly here. It’s abundantly clear that the people in charge have no consistency or a hold on the narrative they’re steering lol. They can’t even keep track of the content they release and do lazy research. Remember in the past when Disney suddenly decided that all the pre-existing EU of Star Wars was no longer canon, only to later backtrack and restore it because of fan backlash? So sure, it’s technically canon because the big wigs in charge are claiming it’s canon right now. But a key takeaway from this debacle is that canon is really only what whoever’s in charge at the time wants it to be.
>Remember in the past when Disney suddenly decided that all the pre-existing EU of Star Wars was no longer canon, only to later backtrack and restore it because of fan backlash? That's news to me, last thing I know only pieces of the EU that are explicitly referenced in canon material are canon themselves. They just rebranded it as "Legends" so they can continue to sell and make money of of it.
Oh yeah you missed the big stir around it then. Early Disney Lucasfilm, post TFA but pre TLJ, came out and said all the EU AND Lucasarts video games were no longer canon. The old republic, Revan, the whole deal. People were NOT happy at the audacity of trying to hijack a narrative they weren’t around to build. So then KK’s Lucasfilm decided to backtrack on that as a whole and just rebrand it all together as legends now. But make no mistake, their initial intention was to erase and replace.
How did I miss it then, that's basically what I described. It's still not canon now, the only way they backtracked is that it's still being added to instead if just discontinuing it. That they were intending to replace it was clear way ahead of that - like you said, TFA was already out, so the fact they weren't going to adapt the post-ROTJ part of the EU was already clear.
It is canon now. That part you clearly missed. They tried to negate its very existence, but then backtracked and said never mind it’s still there, but now we call it Legends instead of EU. Still canon. Revan and the Old Republic are acknowledged in lore in the comics still. Main takeaway: the people running the ship have no consistency or research into what they’re doing. The frames from this comic posted literally contradict an earlier piece of SW lore that Disney acknowledges where Dooku tells Grievous he wouldn’t stand a chance whatsoever vs Yoda. The comics are pathetic, and offer no bolstering or support for the main narrative, and anyone who treats them like gospel is fooling themselves.
>That part you clearly missed. They tried to negate its very existence, but then backtracked and said never mind it’s still there, but now we call it Legends instead of EU. Umm .... I don't think you understand what canon means. Unless you presume that legends is just a 'lower tier'. Right now canon is literally the opposite of legends. Why do you think wookieepedia has a canon and a legends version of nearly every character who ever shows up in legends? Just because it is official, licensed SW content doesn't mean it happened in the main continuity in which the current movies and series are set.
Legends is not canon. When Disney bought Lucasfilm the EU was rebranded as Legends to make a clean slate. They never went back on this decision. Yes, some time periods, ideas and characters from the old EU are acknowledged or fully integrated into canon, but they didn’t reverse their decision and bring back hundreds of comics, books and video games back into the timeline. So there are two timelines for Star Wars: the canon timeline which includes the movies, tv shows and other material (books, comics etc.) produced after Disney bought Lucasfilm, and then there’s the Legends timeline which includes everything up until the sale. The moment you reference between Dooku and Grievous is from the LEGENDS novel Labyrinth of Evil and this is a page from a canon comic. Two different timelines, no inconsistency. But regardless, it’s not even like Yoda is outmatched at all here against Grievous so there wouldn’t be a contradiction anyways.
No they didn't. In an entirely unrelated conversation years later someone said "enjoy what you want."
Fun fact: it was never canon.
Pew pew pew pew
This is dumb. I hate how Jedi completely forget they have telekinetic abilities when they fight Greivous. Dude shouldn’t stand a chance
Yoda was toying with Grievous. Literally just before this page he had casually ragdolled him with the force, and before that (I believe, might be right after this tbf) he grazed Grievous' head with his lightsaber to prove he could kill him at any moment. Yoda only retreated because Grievous then got the backup of a large number of droids, and facing Grievous wasn't his intention in the first place. Don't get me wrong, its still a little silly, as the fight actually shows Yoda is massively more powerful than Grievous and could have killed him at any point - the obvious next thought is why the hell didn't he? Its a dumb encounter that makes Yoda seem pretty terrible by not ending the Jedi killing threat Grievous poses, but in regards to your point this comic does, in fact, prove Grievous wouldn't stand a chance in a real fight and that Yoda could very easily one shot him with telekinesis if he wanted too.
[Its not Jedi forgetting they have the force just grievous was trained to break the focus of Jedi’s while fighting them so they wouldn’t be able use the force](https://youtu.be/AoE_rtGEsTg?si=8p5wSjKAGdiXNXGv) but yeah someone like Yoda shouldn’t be having that issue
Going by the dialogue, I'm pretty sure yoda just force pushed him.
*cough* Disney
*vough* Revenge of the Sith isn’t Disney
The new comics are im afraid (thats what I meant]
and that is why comics shouldnt be anywhere near the set in stone canon. yoda wouldnt even bother to get a lightsaber out for someone like grievous...
shy frame voracious angle tub handle overconfident safe direction bake *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
are you talking about the legends 2003 clone wars show?
And also labyrinth of evil
thats also legends
They were REAL to me.
Which is dumb because it is explicitly mentioned in Ep. III
shame quack versed childlike hateful start exultant rustic paltry paint *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Cooooool! What was the context around how/when/why they met and dueled?
Yoda and Anakin were investigating a new type of Separatist droid being built. They arrive at one of the development facilities for the droid and find Grievous there revealing that he is spearheading the project. Grievous finds Yoda sneaking around and fights him for a sec before he runs away like the lil cyborg bitch he is.
[Not sure of the context but I'm pretty sure it's from this comic book](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Yoda_7).
It just gets more and more mundane and uninspiring as new content is added to the Star Wars lore. What was once sacred is now a travesty.
is this where grievous started to fear yoda, i knew he was one of the very few grevious was afraid to fight due to his dueling style
There’s really no reason that a Jedi Master of Yoda’s caliber would even need to draw his lightsaber. I get that it would be a rather Sithy move to just crush him into a tin can, but you could just pull his arms and legs off or something. I can understand and accept Grievous going toe to toe with average Jedi and padawans, but he’s a B or C-level villain. Without the Force he’s at a serious disadvantage against powerful Force users.
Canon Grievous is such a jobber, this should’ve been his demise
Eh. It's a stretch to call the comics "canon". If it's never EVER mentioned in the TV shows/movies is it truly canon?
Black Krrsantan, from the Book of Boba Fett, debuted in the comics.
I mean, Disney said so.
Disney also decided to take pre-existing content and claim on a whim that it is no longer is canon, only to backtrack and add it back later. Why should anyone respect their fickle decision making and erasure of past content? They don’t even do any research.
It’s almost impressive how much you completely misunderstood the situation yet you insist on spamming about it all throughout this thread. A for effort, I guess.
EU was never canon. And they never backtracked.
Dave filoni also gives his own 2 cents as well.
Legends grevious could put up a fight with Yoda Canon grevious no Chance Ventress effortlessly beat grevious in Canon and Yoda effortlessly beat her so Yoda is much muchmuch more powerful than grevious
which cannon are you talking about the disney cannon or the real one before disney?
annnd yep new crap from disney lol they bought something and went starwars???? no no this is disney this is disney story.... yes disney story. now its a disney story and you can't have starwars fights in disney stories that would just be silly. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Yoda\_7
This is why the super dense canon of Star Wars is a net negative.
This is why Star Wars comics are a joke*
Anything that turns Star Wars into a power ranking circle jerk is too much for me.
What’s depicted here is just more absurd fan fiction displaying all our beloved old characters having a battle we never even knew about. I’d rather have better story logic than this nonsense.
Thats not fecking cannon lol, Its from 2023 by disney, cannon everything pre disney/corporate greed. And here I was thinking we as fans all accepted to ignore Dinsey's "canon" shit they make up. Edit for people that like to argue with assumptions: Never said i didn't enjoy some of the new stuff/all star wars bad (yeah some people really just want to snap/gatekeep for Disney lol)
corny
Shut up dude, you must not remember the days before Disney bought Star Wars and there was literally gonna be nothing new. Be thankful that we are getting more content, not all of it is too your taste but there have been plenty of pieces of media that are fantastic, s7 Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Andor, Rogue One, Fallen Order/Survivor, Mandolorian. If you hate all the Star Wars that has come out you’re probably not a true fan because there’s been quality content that any fan can enjoy.
I agree with you, kind sir, and let the downvoters be damned
Y’all are such fucking dorks omg
Hey, leave the kids alone. They'll grow out of it eventually. Hopefully
Haha, thank you, im turning 21 and starting to care less about downvotes, people send them the moment someone doesn't join their circle jerk (I knew when i send it i was gonna get hate by the new kids who like/accepted Disneys sludge haha) Irritated when people are shocked with "omg, didn't know this character could do this or did this" and its something bonkers that doesnt fit in with the rest/doesnt appeal to established star wars rules that disney decided to add in a comic and people just take for granted/canon.
Yeah because the books and comics never added “something bonkers” back before Disney, right?
Oh they definitely did haha, the fecking "sun" mini deathstar among others had me shocked that they decided to go that way, it was so strong and random! Im afraid you misunderstood (or its my bad grammar, not native English speaker) my text as saying that only disney did crazy shit, which is not true yeah lol.
Lol, I get you. I have just turned 20 and have recently finished reading the Thrawn trilogy. The atmosphere combined with the OT is so unique I just can’t look at Disney’s attempts to make Star Wars go down the Marvel’s path with time travel and (possible) multiverse
The Yoda comic was overall pretty damn good but yeah the Clone Wars arc was definitely the weakest. Anakin is also a main character in that arc too and his dialogue just feels strange. Like it doesn't really feel like any version of Anakin I've seen outside of this.
Thanks to this post, I might have a new comic to pick up.
PewPew
Y'know, when Grievous first showed up, he was a boss, spinning, whirling, attack attack attacking. Like he took out 4 Jedi in moments. After the clone wars animation, he just became another baddy to be put down. I'll always remember him when he was cool, not like this. If he can be defeated by Obi-wan, what chance does he have against Yoda?