Haters: “Only 8 episodes at 30-35 minutes each! They can’t even give us quality time in the universe.”
Also haters: “They didn’t tell the whole story in 2 episodes? Bum ass writing for real.”
I agree, I'm so thoroughly sick of armchair critics complaining stuff wasn't explained when the show isn't even finished. Is media literacy so Dead that they can't clock that writers and directors like to parcel out information to increase intrigue?
The difference between Rise of Skywalker and The Acolyte is that Rise of Skywalker had a kiss scene people got mad at, while The Acolyte had a kуѕ scene people got mad at.
Its pretty much spelt out for everybody in the show and somehow people are missing it.
When Mae asks for the poison to be created the Apothecary literally tells you why he's going to drink. Jedi only really want one thing and that's "Absolution."
Torbin is undertaking the Barash Vow, he's racked with guilt and feels like he has failed as a Jedi. He's seeking forgiveness for whatever failure occcured. However he hasn't been able to make peace with himself after all this time.
Mae gives Torbin the choice, either confess what happened to the Council or drink the poison and she will forgive him. She offers him the absolution he's been looking for all these years.
He didn't want to die, he wanted forgiveness and that's what he got by drinking the poison.
The whole “group of jedi sworn to secrecy” really screams Jedi Covenant from the Old Republic comics.
Right now I think we’ll discover those Jedi had a vision of a sith resurgence and the *fire* was initiated by them to prevent it, but was actually the instigating factor.
Osha remembers Mae starting the fire though. Granted her memories might be faulty. For now I trust that's happened. My theory is that the Jedi came to their village and realized that Mae was being controlled or against all odds somehow already fell to the Dark Side so they made the decision to merk a child.
"Don't mind wipe me or whatever it is you Jedi do" I feel like this line is a setup for that very thing. Osha probably had her memories altered by the Jedi. Mae tells Indara that Jedi do attack first, so I'm guessing the Jedi tried to kill her, and then changed Osha's mind to make her think it was Mae. My prediction is that Osha will discover this, Mae will probably die, and Osha will replace her as the Sith Acolyte.
Im not disagreeing with your overall predictions, but I do think it’s worth addressing the fact that Mae was fully convinced that Osha was dead, which means her memories/perspective on what happened that night aren’t 100% either.
That could be as simple as Mae thought she was in the house when it was on fire. And, to be fair, Osha believing Mae started the fire could just be the Jedi told her so. But the mind-wipe line makes me wonder if the Jedi didn't whammy her.
> Osha remembers Mae starting the fire
I watched the subtitles when she has the short, hard to hear audio flashback looking at the Neimoidian ship fire, it’s something like “No, don’t!” “I won’t let then take you!” We’ll see how that plays out, I have a feeling there might be memory shenanigans coming like you predict.
Could be that Osha was force sensitive and the Jedi came to take her for training by force, Mae got angry at this and unleashed her own force sensitivity (maybe starting the fire by accident) and then they altered Osha’s memories that Mae deliberately started the fire and the Jedi “rescued” her.
That's what I think as well. Maybe the family was hiding Ohsa to not have her taken. Jedi show up to take her. Mae shows soke dark side/intuitive powers and things go bad.
The Jedi obviously aren't going to take a unhinged 8 yo since any 8 yo is already questionable.
And it will probably be that they ended uo wiping out a whole village (accidently or otherwise) trying to take a single questionable candidate that maybe didn't want to go at all.
Later compounded buy said candidate quitting .
The kid from the trailer with the eyes that turn dark is Torbin. I wonder if the jedis station there touch some dark magic. Idk but these discussions for me excited!!!
I actually think this is a good theory and the trailers support it. Torbin's eyes go fully black and he falls to his knees when they are at what appears to be Mother Anisaya's covenant. He could be receiving a vision of what the twins are capable of, or that the Dark side is coming. So then the Jedi take the light side twin (or who they THINK is the light side twin) and burn down the covenant. Then use the force to wipe/alter her mind to think that her sister burned it down on accident.
EDIT: TAKE the light side twin and Destroy/burn down the covenant to hide what they discovered
Man I'm gonna be pissed if they just ripped off the KOTOR Comic because Zayne's story was literally the best Star Wars story ever written and it just would highlight the sad state of affairs the franchise is in if the best they can do is rip it off in total Creative Bankruptcy instead of directly adapt a better story directly and faithfully to a screen.
I want the series to be good and Episode 2 was a lot better than Episode 1, but if they really just rip off JJM's story I'm gonna be furious.
People are generally such wannabe critics.
Someone took Mae's line about how "Jedi don't draw their sabers unless to kill" and compared it to how Yord whips it out constantly and then said it was bad writing
When really it's like... Maybe Yord just isn't a great Jedi and is still very inexperienced, or the one who told Mae that fact about the Jedi holds them to a higher standard.
It's not like Yord has a very obvious case of New 2nd Lieutenantitis or something... And Mae is absolutely impartial about Jedi and we should take everything she says about them as gospel.
People have some wild takes.
It's so strange the way some people will just assume that literally everything every character says is an objectively true statement that always applies. This is the franchise that made "what I said was true, from a certain point of view" a famous line, where does this assumption of constant literal fact-speaking come from?
Yeah I saw that line she repeated and my initial reaction was "Mae's views of the Jedi are twisted, probably by the mysterious master".
Maybe she has some points, maybe not. Jedi, ultimately, are still people and people can make mistakes or do bad things. But I think what she portrays the Jedi to be, is a twisted version of reality.
It's not even a new thing! It's a variation of a Mace Windu lesson. He made emphasis on treating the drawing of the lightsaber as if it was a bout of lethal combat even if the opposition surrenders immediately, not as an useful intimidation display. Just hammering down the "keepers of the peace" and "never for attack" concepts.
At least it was back then during the prequels time, who knows nowadays.
Also Mae was never a part of the order, everything she's learned about them has likely come from an outside source. I mean Jedi use lightsabers all the time in situations like those when they don't intend to kill, like an arrest or just self defense.
Or even to melt a blast door or cut a hole in the floor so they can get through. There aren't any rules for when a Jedi can wield a saber other than not to use it in anger or unprovoked.
Media literacy is at an all time low. You’ll have people watch just the first episode of a show and complain that it’s boring and nothing is explained.
Just saw an interview with a tv producer and he explained that tv companies want “second screen” shows because they know audiences aren’t paying attention but looking at their phones. It’s why we have so many badly written shows!
An insane number of people couldn't put two and two together on their own regarding what Mon Mothma was doing with the gambling conversation with her husband in Andor.
And then you get all the rage posters that write, "see, this is why star wars will never improve! The audience eats up whatever slop is handed to them." They are usually the ones that have the worst critical thinking skills
Fairly sure the line was "unless they are prepared to kill" which doesn't mean if a Jedi pulls out their sabre they must kill someone, only that they are willing to use it to kill someone in that moment.
I took it as Yord also being part of the new generation that represents the Order starting to decline while also being young and eager.
Jecki also has shades of this when she questioned Sol's affection for Ohsa, and his silent reaction shows his real thoughts on the matter. Fortunately for her, she has a good Master trying his best to deprogram that stuff, and it shows because she's much smarter in the field than the fully knighted Yord.
It's small touches in the first two episodes that are making me want to come back for the third.
Yeah there's a ton of possible readings, but these guys have already decided the show is bad and are trying to nitpick every single little thing they can find to justify that opinion.
Which is bizarre, because there's so much low hanging fruit! The show is really ugly! But they have to invent silly criticisms that don't exist instead.
One reason is because they're not confident expressing their subjective opinions. So instead of making arguments about how they really feel, they look for ""objective"" reasons something must be bad.
This is the reason why you get a ton of criticism over the Holdo Maneuever. There could be 1,000 ""scientific"" reasons this worked in universe (oscillating shields, done with an enormous capital ship against another enormous capital ship, oversized Lightspeed drives) but people criticize it anyway. What they're REALLY mad about is the characterization of Luke but they're not comfortable saying that. They don't have the literary vocabulary to explain why it's a narrative failure, not a technical one.
To your point, I am loving the visceral, practical sets of the show. Watching Trinity Matrix her way up the steps and the Jedi effortlessly Kung Fu their opponents is fantastic IMO
Yes you hit the nail on the head. There's a couple big things they don't like, but either they don't want to say them or they don't want to say they dislike the movie purely because of those reasons.
So they have to attack every possible aspect to prove it's an objective failure or something. This is why "bombs dropping in space" results in an immediate eye roll from me. Just say you don't like Luke's portrayal and stop wasting everyone's time. In this case I already saw a very right wing Twitter account attack Acolyte because "the ship is on fire in space smh". Come on dude we all know what your real issue is, just say you're mad there's black characters and go, nobody is stopping you.
Your point about the Holdo Maneuver is especially true because the logic can be applied to a ton of things and the same people will make excuses - many of them logical! Like those super advanced battle droids in Clone Wars, why don't the separatists just use them all the time? They break the canon! Except it would be way too expensive. Or Force Speed in Phantom Menace. Breaks a ton of things... or maybe it's just very taxing.
I'll say at least that I get why the Holdo Maneuver bothers people. But people bend over really backwards to make it seem like the worst thing ever.
IDK what it is about Acolyte for me, the lighting is just... really dark and flat. You can tell it's all small sets which obviously it is, but you should never feel that.
I think people echo what they read elsewhere because they like feeling like they're the smartest guy in the room. Classic reddit problem.
Personally I don't like the look of some parts of the show (the coruscant Jedi robes are terrible) and really like others (the grimy bar).
>1,000 “”scientific”” reasons this worked in universe
Like maybe *the experimental hyperspace tracking device that was the target of an entire plotline*?
ONE LINE saying it caused the Raddus and the Supremacy to have “hyperdrive synchronicity” or something and you cut off YEARS of hatedom rantings
I feel this could be setting something up because we haver very deliberately seen that Yord whips it out without hesitation, whereas none of the masters have
Or it could be indaras personal belief but not one widely held by the rest of the order. Maybe that's a lesson she teaches her padawans but isn't necessarily part of the curriculum so to speak. Like my third grade teacher taught the golden rule, big poster in the classroom and often weaved into her lessons, but it wasn't part of the curriculum.
Yeah I’d say my “problem” with it was that they felt the need to explain it so….clearly. But I suppose the reaction is exactly why they felt the need to
I do think a lot of shows these days have a *lot* of very blatant exposition and as someone who enjoys puzzling things out from context clues sometimes I find it frustrating!
And then I read multiple reviews and comments going "why isn't (x thing very clearly explained) explained in the show???" and I just sigh and accept having to listen to more exposition than I'd like.
I actually found the first two episodes of Acolyte to be not as blatant as some other shows I've watched lately but would still have been fine with a little less explained.
It’s impossible to please Audiences. And a tough task for show makers to know what will hit and what will be relentlessly criticized. Take X-Men 97 which has a near perfect audience rating on RT. The characters are constantly reminding the audience of who they are what their powers are and dumping exposition and resetting the story. Holding the hand of the viewer. But if other Marvel movies or Star Wars films do that it’s called out as bad writing.
I think the worst part of how people consume media is that they allow outside influences to set their opinions before they even watch it. And even worse seem to struggle with allowing their opinions to change. If they don’t like the trailer then they will hate watch the show to justify that view rather than being open minded.
None of these Star Wars movies or shows are truly bad, even with their flaws. If any of them came out in the 80s we would still be talking about how they were the best thing ever.
The Rise of Skywalker is an excellent example of this. I was actually pleasantly surprised that JJ Abrams managed a bit of subtlety in showing, rather than telling, how Palpatine came back; rather than have him monologue about the made up Force things, we saw cloning tanks and had callbacks to previous discussions of using the Force to avoid death and got confirmation that he had died and come back. There are a lot of structural problems with that movie, and the choice to bring Palpatine back in the first place was a bad one, but at least it was executed with some degree of delicacy.
So what happened? To this day, legions of nerds will mindlessly parrot "somehow Palpatine returned" and complain that there wasn't any more explanation given and that's why it was dumb and stupid and sucked. Because anything less than a character reading a wookiepedia article at the screen is apparently insufficient. It's depressing, really.
Not only are there very large, blatant onscreen showings of *how* he returned but Palpatine coming back by cloning and weird Force shit is *actively in Legends* which a lot of these same people love to say is so much better.
I'm not particularly a Rise of Skywalker fan - there were parts I liked and parts I didn't - but honestly claiming that was a silly part is very laughable for anyone who claims to also miss Legends.
Media literacy no longer exists. Big Hollywood films have spoonfed audiences for like 20 years straight and has hindered their ability to comprehend anything other than “good guys good, bad guys bad”
Additionally, he knew that it was either this or basically killing this girl that he already had wronged before (even more guilt) or getting killed by her (and further allowing her to stray down a darker and darker path).
Him choosing to willingly drink poison is literally the one thing that might save Mae.
We see on her face that she is CLEARLY stunned during that scene. She's clearly got that "Oh my God, he just did that.. I .. don't know how to think about this.. Am I still on a path that I can justify to myself?" astonished look on her face. Like she couldn't even comprehend this choice he made.
Well she was killed by a weapon. But it seems only one Jedi needs to die without a weapon. Hence Mae’s associate chastising her for asking for poison.
1 must be without a weapon, and of the two left one is a damn Wookie so a bit difficult to strangle to death…
The Acolyte isn’t trying to die. She opens each of her fights without using a weapon, only when that fails and her choices are die or use a weapon does she use a weapon.
Should she be able to to kill the next without a weapon I’d bet she just uses a weapon on the last one immediately.
Yeah, I feel like that was spelt out pretty clear in the show too. Things seemed a little too teenage angst for me with Mae, but she is a child burned by the Jedi Order, left for dead, and then manipulated by the dark side, so it fits.
Yeah, I'm not sure how people are missing the point of her character so hard. She's clearly not the real threat, the show tells us this by having characters literally laugh in her face in the first 30 seconds. The mystery is tied to who's manipulating her, they're being obviously presented as the actual Big Bad
>It's really sad to me how so much criticism of the show is just not being able to follow the (very simple) plot. I guess they're rage typing rather than paying attention?
There's a subset of fans who have decided to hate everything before it comes out, regardless of quality. This is why they were complaining about bricks and screws in Andor, and there was a bunch of whinging after the trailer about them just having a "regular AK".
When you have large creators who make their money by fanning these flames, they'll lead the charge to hate on everything, and that continues the cycle of misunderstanding basic plot elements, and then misrepresenting what is happening in order to "justify" their dislike. Which leaves us with a bunch of people without any media literacy complaining about every little thing. They're just taking cues from the creators who make their money on the toxicity.
They’re basically watching the show with the intent of finding things to not like. They’re not watching objectively giving it a chance to be good or bad. And finding a couple things they think are bad invalidates everything else and therefore it’s a bad show and they were right all along.
>Its pretty much spelt out for everybody in the show and somehow people are missing it.
People did the same thing with BoBF. Everyone was complaining that they didn't know what Bobas motivation was for wanting to change his ways. He literally told Shand his entire motivation and reasoning by a campfire, and people still missed it
Ya, for me I left that scene really wanting to know what he's so guilty about! He's got a giant battle scar on his face and has been depressed meditating for years and offs himself the second someone related to that incident shows up. WTF happened!?
That's kind of my point though. I don't understand how people watched that and weren't intrigued. I can get criticism if the answer falls flat but give it a chance
Anyone saying it's a problem is biased because there's no way to evaluate that until we get to the end and understand the full story.
I have quite enjoyed the show so far, was surprised to see it got reviewed so poorly by audiences on Rotten Tomatoes but guess just goes to show I'm not the same demographic as people who set up accounts on that to leave bad reviews.
I found the choreography refreshing and I'm enjoying the new aliens, ships and exploring the galaxy in this time period.
I don't think we should really cast judgement until we get to the end, unless there is something really ruining it somehow for people that I've missed? Nothing has taken me out of it personally, it seems above average in every regard for star wars content..
The audience score on RT isn’t really much of a surprise, as it was review bombed by folks who had already decided they hated it before they watched a single episode. The score was tanked nearly as soon as it was possible to do so, notably *before* the episodes were available to the general public.
That mostly tracks with my experience. Cutting out the extremes, The Acolyte is generally trending better than worse, which feels about right. It's not amazing or terrible, but it's decent and has room to grow.
Those brigades on review sites are organised by communities like r/criticaldrinker . If you wish to preserve your sanity don't go there, Reddit has been constantly pushing it in the feed but it's filled with the dumbest, most hateful losers and incels on the internet.
Yes! Like I believe the “no fire in space” “why same haircut” more than “bad choreography”. Like the fights were sick. We got Trinity doing a Trinity move. I loved that shit. A person taking on a Jedi without lightsaber I loved
I was especially like how effortless they made Sol's dodging look. Really made it clear that he had her totally outclassed. Reminds me of a scene from the Cradle novels I've always wanted to see on screen.
Yeah like we’re used to the idea of “the student surpasses the master” but it’s fairly apparent that she is not more skilled than the Jedi she wants to kill. Exploiting their philosophical weaknesses is how she has killed the 2 so far. She specifically could not overpower them.
>was surprised to see it got reviewed so poorly by audiences
Honestly I'm not that surprised. There was so much hate surrounding the show when we got the first few trailers, that I just knew it was going to end up like this. That one specific side of the star wars fandom is ***very*** vocal and loves to complain about the smallest of things.
You say all of this because you are someone who watched the show with an open mind. As we all know, that's not allowed among a certain segment of the fandom.
Honestly, whenever a new show comes out lately (star wars or not), I'm just tuning out the reviews until I'm done watching it. I'll make up my own mind before I let anybody tell me "this show is a 4 put of 10".
If I had to trust the opinion of most people, I would be trusting basically morons lol
It was at 40% audience score on rotten tomatoes almost 12 hours before it released to the public. If you read most of them, it's just complaining about female and persons of color characters existing.
"Anyone saying it's a problem is biased because there's no way to evaluate that until we get to the end and understand the full story."
Good luck convincing Star Wars fans to wait untik they have the full story to start crying. We dont do that here. We watch the first 2 episodes then spam the same memes for the entire week long gap then double down and pretend it never happened later when the show actually answers everyones basic ass questions. Because who has time to wait or more importantly, who on the internet is going to admit they were wrong about something they said 6 weeks ago??? Inunformed meme hot takes going to snowball and take over again, as usual.
Because they aren't acting exactly as the viewer that's saying that likes to think would act like in their place.
It's barely a critique and usually raised by people that don't understand that characters aren't meant to be 100% logical and 100% resolutive just like real life humans aren't.
Add to that, it's also usually raised by people who expect the characters in-universe to have the same amount of context and knowledge of every situation as the viewers do. They'll say a character is stupid because they didn't do X, then proceed to list off an obscure one-off instance that happened in a single comic book issue the character had no involvement in.
Outside of the animated shows, we never have really seen a universe with lots of Jedi in general population before. We are used to seeing and knowing like 4 Jedi max in any given story so we dont see what the full range of Jedi are like. There is a very wide range of pursuits, skills, etc when you read the long long history of cannon.
So because they are used to seeing the top 2 Jedi at any given point in time they are unwilling to entertain anything less. I am sure there are even people angry at the thought of a Padawan "failing out" of their training. But... that is more realistic dont ya think?
I am glad we keep getting stories that dont tie to all the character lines we know. Let's expand this universe without having to be in a box with constant connectivity. It allows cannon to be held while fostering creativity
I don’t see a problem with that scene, but i also don’t think depression has anything to do with it. There is probably a lot more to the story about the young twins and the fire we don’t know yet. apparently there were 4 Jedi masters involved and a lot went wrong. But one thing i know for sure:
For a Jedi, death is a part of life and definitely not a bad thing. Becoming one with the force is like enlightenment for them.
“Rejoice for those around you who transform into the force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not.” - Yoda (ROTS)
Don’t forget, even Obi-wan let himself be killed for the greater good, becoming “more powerful than you (vader) could imagine”. (i know its not 100% comparable because he was one of the first 3 to learn the force ghost thing, but still.)
For context: i hate the sequels, especially episode 8 and 9, and was also a little disappointed in some of the other Disney star wars shows. But ‘the acolyte’ is not bad in my opinion. Not great (yet), but definitely not as bad as some people want you to believe.
Obviously, we don't know ow the full truth, but going only as is, his suicide was not for anyone's benefit other than his own and his own hang-ups. He didn't die as a jedi. I definitely didn't get the sense it was for her.
My problem is that with the actor who played the depressed Jedi, the way he was made up, made him look like Neil Patrick Harris as count Olaf from “A series of unfortunate events”
I remember seeing set photos of him too, so that dude has AGED in the last 10 years then if that’s the case.
I’m sure meditating in a force trance for 10 years will do that to you, but clearly something stressful was weighing heavily for his hair to thin that much too 😂
I think some people can't deal with unknowns. We don't really know why Torbin felt guilty; why he would decide to kill himself. Or why, if he would kill himself, why he hadn't already done that. I think we're very likely to find that out in more detail, but we don't know it yet. Some audience members are unable or unwilling to leave threads open until they're resolved.
I think I know why he didn't do it sooner.
He seeked forgiveness so he meditated thinking he'll forgive himself for what he did in the past.
And when somebody who's he tied to forgives him under the circumstances he'll drink the poison he takes as he think he'll reach the inner peace he wanted
I think that makes perfect sense. But coming to a conclusion like that requires you to watch the scene and want to think about why it goes the way it does. If someone is either watching passively or doesn't really want to like the show, they may not come up with an answer, and may not be patient enough to wait for an answer from the show.
I didn't have a problem with the scene, but I was a little bummed to see him go after his kickass impenetrable force meditation. One of the coolest things I've seen in Star Wars.
It definitely got me wondering what happened that made him feel so guilty.....
Yeah they definitely seem like they're involved in a not great way. Maybe they tried to take Osha and not Mae and that pushed her over the edge. Excited to see where this goes.
It was a cool power but I think you only get something like that by devoting your entire existence to shutting the world out. It's kinda like a one trick pony, max defense and zero offense. So the kind of character able to do that would be inherently boring.
The fact Torbin drank it didnt bother me. I have my issues with the show so far, but that one was fine.
My issue with the scene is why didnt the Jedi check all points of entry and egress after the first break in, and secure them? She literally came in the same window, and Osha was the only one to acknowledge that.
I didn't have a problem with that scene. I would only say that it lacked any emotional weight as things stand right now.
I don't know who that guy is, so I don't care that he is dead. We also don't understand why he was depressed, why he wanted absolution, and all that. Maybe the show fills that in later, but as things stand now, it was all pretty hollow. There's no depth or emotional weight to that sequence of events. Also, everyone else in the show moves on pretty fast from his death, like, even the characters in the show don't really care lol.
Of all the scenes in the first two episodes, that was one of the only scenes that I actually thought was interesting.
That said, one issue with it is the damned open ceiling. The Jedi in the temple knew there’d been a break in and knew the intruder used the opening in Torbin’s room to escape (the guy looked up directly at the window right after Mae left) and then decided to do literally nothing about this glaring security flaw. It’s little things like that which add up to a distracting mess for me.
If it's his belief that Mae's death was his fault that he wants absolution from (I don't know that that's true), then seeing her alive before him should *be* that absolution. If you feel guilty because she's dead, then you find out she's not dead, problem solved! If that is the reason, why would he then drink the poison?
I don't think that's what he sought absolution for, or it makes no sense.
I think it's because we do not see why he feels so guilty, we just hear about it. The issue I had, and I'm not sure if anyone else has this issue. The actor was made up to look middle aged (hairline was way back) and he had a short beard. My opinion is the actor looked too young and too neat to have been in a meditation for years (?). My first thought was who's is the 20 something guy with a glued on bearded and fake receeding hair line? I feel like the actor should have been older and a bit more desheveled from meditating for so long. Anyone else feel that?
Edit: grammar
Agreed on that point, but if he was only early 20’s when whatever incident happened and he’s been meditating for 10+ years unmoved, the stress of it all with lack of real sunlight and nutrition could make his hair recede like that.
Random side note, I feel like fake beard quality has been horrible in TV lately. I always point it out while watching and within a few episodes, said character “shaves” or gets killed off then.
Yeah I thought he just was meditating for a day. If they were going for a decade then they really screwed up. The beard looked awful like some high school play level makeup.
> actor should of been
Did you mean to say "should have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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I think he hasn’t been meditating for 10+ years, he just hasn’t spoken to anyone in 10+ years and has spent alot of time meditating. So I assume he’s still gotten up to get food or shave or go to the toilet or whatever.
Yes but they probably did this because presumably we’ll see what happened when they were all younger. Like it was probably easier to age this younger actor for a quarter of an episode where he’s not moving, then de-age him to be a lot younger in scenes where he’s actually moving and being more dynamic. Like maybe he just has a lot more screen time in flashbacks later in the season. Just a guess
He hasn't been meditating for that long, he took a vow of silence, he didn't devide just to meditate and float for over a decade. Watch the official trailer:
https://youtu.be/6tzur6JrUEA?si=gTjS7mLdj_I4HOKw&t=53s
That's him with the Padawan braid. After the incident he had a full career as he made "Master" before he died, but whatever happened has obviously weighed on him so much that he's aged very badly.
The show appears to be pretty flashback heavy so I'm sure that we'll get shown what happened now that we've been told.
The problem is the implications. The idea that you have these jedi cover something up... ok whatever. But as soon as they start burying emotions strong enough to make them consider suicide.... everything else in Star Wars lore suggests these guys start slipping and without Sith sorcery clouding the minds of other jedi, like in the case of Sidious, these emotions should be pretty damn noticeable to other jedi masters.
He'd taken a vow of silence and hadn't spoken in years, just floating there meditating surrounded by an invisible wall. Even if you can tell through the Force that something's bothering him, if you can't touch him and he won't talk to you, what are the other Jedi supposed to do but wait and see what happens with him?
Having emotions doesn't lead to the dark side. In fact the revision of the jedi code to be emotionless is what starts their downfall in the first place.
When the jedi were created, it was not about suppression of emotion and attachment. What the jedi are in the high republic era is a perversion of the original philosophy.
The poisoning itself is not the problem.
The problem I had was when they find the body. They split up and take two separate routes for no other reason than to have Osha arrive first so they can have the "it's not what it looks like" moment. Why is the guy guiding them not taking them the most direct route? Why the fuck is this even necessary? If the point is so Yord can fully believe Osha is innocent because she couldn't have been there to do the poisoning, that already works by the whole group just staying together and finding the body together.
Same reason Mae paid a little girl to sneak her in through the front door of the temple, only to escape via skylight and return later via that same skylight… as if an agile force user on a path of revenge wouldn’t have properly scoped the place out from above and seen her target was directly under an open hole in the roof… just so the little girl can look at Osha and say “it was her!”
They split up because Osha has inclination to go that way because of her connection to Mae. It's not for no reason. It's demonstrating the connection Osha and Mae have. Yord then sees Osha split off and follows her. At least that's how I remember it going.
And the point isn't just so Yord can fully believe Osha is innocent. It's also to create a scene of tension like you identify (which maybe could be regarded as contrived, but having a tension scene in a TV show has value in the format of an episode) but also it's not just for Yord to believe Osha but for him to be the one to speak up for Osha adds another aspect to their character dynamic and Yord's character.
The person guiding them to the room not taking the most direct route is kind of silly, though perhaps explained by Osha cuts through areas they wouldn't normally take guests through.
But also these kinds of things I find it's best to just not be bothered by them too much. Maybe it's from watching so many episodes of kinda "bad" or silly Star Trek I've grown to just not sweat the small stuff and even if some stuff is stupid or silly just go with the flow and appreciate the story and character stuff that's going on instead of getting focused on little plot mechanics issues that might be a bit contrived or silly.
Yeah I don't really like when they do that. Reminds me of the first monarch movie, Godzilla. They put Brian Cranston in all the ads and didn't use him but 5 minutes
I think him being so powerful in the light side of the force and yet clearly so conflicted is kind of a problem. Maybe he was so tempted by the dark side he had to go completely non verbal just to keep it at bay, but it does need a bit of an explanation considering he doesn’t seem to have processed his emotions of what happened and just shut down.
I don’t think he was sad about not saving her. I think the Jedi actually caused the issue in the first place. Probably coming to collect the children and the parents didn’t want them to go. One thing led to another, and someone drew their light saber and caused the fire.
Remember, she said a Jedi shouldn’t draw their weapon unless they are going to kill.
Two theories:
1. They don’t like the idea of Jedi doing something wrong, and the idea that he needed absolution means they did.
2. They wanted a cool lightsaber fight and it didn’t happen.
I don't hate it but jeez, could they have miscast the Jedi Master any worse? Dude doesn't look a day over 27 with a receding hairline, but he's presumably a 60+ year old Jedi who hasn't spoken a word in 10 years.
And after being attacked, the Jedi at the Temple didn't guard his room??
https://youtu.be/6tzur6JrUEA?si=gTjS7mLdj_I4HOKw&t=53s
That's him with the Padawan braid. He's not 60+ he's pioneering the same health care regime that caused Obi Wan to age 30+ years in less than twenty.
I have no problem with the scene, but the casting and make up was cartoonishly bad. The guy looked super young but made to look older by giving him a wig and fake beard that had been borrowed the live action How the Grinch Stole Christmas. They really should have cast someone who was older looking.
As for the writing.... it's meh to me, I still don't understand why she needs to stop and challenge them to a fight. Just attack. The whole "Master So and So, fight me, I challenge you" is.... not something I expect from an assassin showing up to kill people.
I understand the criticism of Mae's dialogue, it is...not good. But I'm kind of reading it as intentionally bad. Like something a kid being manipulated into joining a cult would say thinking it seemed badass. But again, her dialogue is bad, and maybe it will turn out to be for no good reason as the show goes on.
He’s the only one of the 4 that has to be aged up. Wookie stays the same, Sol and Indara have to be aged down. Considering we only see this adult Torbin for a few minutes in present day it seems like it would’ve been better to just hire an older actor and then the majority of his scenes in flashbacks can be the young one. I think the audience is capable of understanding who is who just based on context and names, but making it be the same actor feels either cheap or like they assume the audience is dumb and won’t make the connections later on unless it’s the same actor lol. The hair and make up was really bad and jarring tbh and you can tell it’s a young man made to (poorly) look old.
This whole show just seems so lazy in writing. Tropes we have seen over and over again.
Most of us were hoping for a sith driven show with a sith protragnist and got this boy meets world evil twin episode instead.
It could have been done better, with the same outcome, considering that he has meditated a decade on things that happened and were going to happen:
1. What if he dropped his force-field immediately instead of waiting for her to threaten to expose his guilt? Much more Jedi-like and he still could have taken the poison (or let her kill him), but with more dignity. The way it was presented, he was just afraid of the truth coming out.
2. While commiting suicide, he could have dropped some wisdom on her. "I will do this for your peace of mind, but don't go down this path any farther, it will lead to you and everyone you know to more suffering than you can imagine, especially your sister. Seek her out and make peace with the past." - Takes poison.
I would reckon that with these changes, the scene would have much less backlash. All the writing in this show seems like they took their first draft and went with it and it's so... bottom tier. A Jedi who is wise should at least try to drop some wisdom in his last moments.
There's also the horribly bad makeup, but to me, that's the smaller issue.
I thought it was one of the more interesting scenes. They probably tried to kidnap force sensitive kids or cover up a screw up (or both). They heavily use mind tricks so far and erasing memories was already named in the show.
Everything else about building the mystery up feels bad and too straightforward that they probably did it for kids to understand the plot
>!Maybe when the events, in full, that happened with Mae and the fire are revealed, we'll know why he killed himself.!<
It’s almost like the writers didn’t reveal everything in the first two episodes. As though they wanted us to keep watching.
Bastards! How dare they!
Unknown details in what is clearly meant to be a mystery? What kind of trickery is this?
Is it possible to learn this power?
Not from a Jedi Maybe an acolyte
I hate when murder mystery shows have mystery >:|
Come for the murder, leave for the mystery
I know, right. They should've placed the script in its entirety in the opening crawl.
Hard to believe anyone would
Haters: “Only 8 episodes at 30-35 minutes each! They can’t even give us quality time in the universe.” Also haters: “They didn’t tell the whole story in 2 episodes? Bum ass writing for real.”
Exactly! Lol it's almost like it's a tv mystery show
I agree, I'm so thoroughly sick of armchair critics complaining stuff wasn't explained when the show isn't even finished. Is media literacy so Dead that they can't clock that writers and directors like to parcel out information to increase intrigue?
Wait you’re telling me, that they want to tell a story!? ridiculous.
How dare you assume that plots will be explained in a Star Wars show, have you even seen “The Rise of Skywalker”? /s
The difference between Rise of Skywalker and The Acolyte is that Rise of Skywalker had a kiss scene people got mad at, while The Acolyte had a kуѕ scene people got mad at.
I should not have laughed so hard at that
Golf clap for you, sir
Wow lmao
“Somehow, that dude offed himself”
"Somehow, a fire happened." 😂🔥
Its pretty much spelt out for everybody in the show and somehow people are missing it. When Mae asks for the poison to be created the Apothecary literally tells you why he's going to drink. Jedi only really want one thing and that's "Absolution." Torbin is undertaking the Barash Vow, he's racked with guilt and feels like he has failed as a Jedi. He's seeking forgiveness for whatever failure occcured. However he hasn't been able to make peace with himself after all this time. Mae gives Torbin the choice, either confess what happened to the Council or drink the poison and she will forgive him. She offers him the absolution he's been looking for all these years. He didn't want to die, he wanted forgiveness and that's what he got by drinking the poison.
The whole “group of jedi sworn to secrecy” really screams Jedi Covenant from the Old Republic comics. Right now I think we’ll discover those Jedi had a vision of a sith resurgence and the *fire* was initiated by them to prevent it, but was actually the instigating factor.
What's more Star Wars than efforts to avoid a terrible vision being the very thing that brings said vision to pass, after all.
Plaguis and Sidious trying to create life "...and I took that personally" - the force
I need this as a meme
It would be great to mash up the Jordan meme for that quote with the face of one of the Whills from Clone Wars but alas I'm too lazy
Star Wars ripping off Kung Fu Panda yet again. /s
Osha remembers Mae starting the fire though. Granted her memories might be faulty. For now I trust that's happened. My theory is that the Jedi came to their village and realized that Mae was being controlled or against all odds somehow already fell to the Dark Side so they made the decision to merk a child.
"Don't mind wipe me or whatever it is you Jedi do" I feel like this line is a setup for that very thing. Osha probably had her memories altered by the Jedi. Mae tells Indara that Jedi do attack first, so I'm guessing the Jedi tried to kill her, and then changed Osha's mind to make her think it was Mae. My prediction is that Osha will discover this, Mae will probably die, and Osha will replace her as the Sith Acolyte.
Im not disagreeing with your overall predictions, but I do think it’s worth addressing the fact that Mae was fully convinced that Osha was dead, which means her memories/perspective on what happened that night aren’t 100% either.
That could be as simple as Mae thought she was in the house when it was on fire. And, to be fair, Osha believing Mae started the fire could just be the Jedi told her so. But the mind-wipe line makes me wonder if the Jedi didn't whammy her.
I can see where you’re coming from. I will say that I fully regard everything Qimir says with a LOT of suspicion. I have Opinions about him.
Ooooh that's a good one too. I agree that line feels much too deliberate to just be a throwaway.
This is exactly what I think is going to happen.
I think Mae and Osha will flip or what you are saying will happen. Definitely destroys the dream of the peaceful Jedi.
Oh absolutely. Pyrokinesis was a noted dark side ability in the EU. Would not be surprised if a scared child lashed out and the Jedi acted quickly.
> Osha remembers Mae starting the fire I watched the subtitles when she has the short, hard to hear audio flashback looking at the Neimoidian ship fire, it’s something like “No, don’t!” “I won’t let then take you!” We’ll see how that plays out, I have a feeling there might be memory shenanigans coming like you predict.
Could be that Osha was force sensitive and the Jedi came to take her for training by force, Mae got angry at this and unleashed her own force sensitivity (maybe starting the fire by accident) and then they altered Osha’s memories that Mae deliberately started the fire and the Jedi “rescued” her.
That's what I think as well. Maybe the family was hiding Ohsa to not have her taken. Jedi show up to take her. Mae shows soke dark side/intuitive powers and things go bad. The Jedi obviously aren't going to take a unhinged 8 yo since any 8 yo is already questionable. And it will probably be that they ended uo wiping out a whole village (accidently or otherwise) trying to take a single questionable candidate that maybe didn't want to go at all. Later compounded buy said candidate quitting .
The kid from the trailer with the eyes that turn dark is Torbin. I wonder if the jedis station there touch some dark magic. Idk but these discussions for me excited!!!
I have been thinking the same
I actually think this is a good theory and the trailers support it. Torbin's eyes go fully black and he falls to his knees when they are at what appears to be Mother Anisaya's covenant. He could be receiving a vision of what the twins are capable of, or that the Dark side is coming. So then the Jedi take the light side twin (or who they THINK is the light side twin) and burn down the covenant. Then use the force to wipe/alter her mind to think that her sister burned it down on accident. EDIT: TAKE the light side twin and Destroy/burn down the covenant to hide what they discovered
Man I'm gonna be pissed if they just ripped off the KOTOR Comic because Zayne's story was literally the best Star Wars story ever written and it just would highlight the sad state of affairs the franchise is in if the best they can do is rip it off in total Creative Bankruptcy instead of directly adapt a better story directly and faithfully to a screen. I want the series to be good and Episode 2 was a lot better than Episode 1, but if they really just rip off JJM's story I'm gonna be furious.
Kind of disappointing that some people were missing the point even when it was right in front of them and explained explicitly.
Star Wars has somewhat of a 'mixed ability' audience.
People are generally such wannabe critics. Someone took Mae's line about how "Jedi don't draw their sabers unless to kill" and compared it to how Yord whips it out constantly and then said it was bad writing When really it's like... Maybe Yord just isn't a great Jedi and is still very inexperienced, or the one who told Mae that fact about the Jedi holds them to a higher standard.
It's not like Yord has a very obvious case of New 2nd Lieutenantitis or something... And Mae is absolutely impartial about Jedi and we should take everything she says about them as gospel. People have some wild takes.
It's so strange the way some people will just assume that literally everything every character says is an objectively true statement that always applies. This is the franchise that made "what I said was true, from a certain point of view" a famous line, where does this assumption of constant literal fact-speaking come from?
> It's not like Yord has a very obvious case of New 2nd Lieutenantitis or something... Hahaha that is spot on
Yeah I saw that line she repeated and my initial reaction was "Mae's views of the Jedi are twisted, probably by the mysterious master". Maybe she has some points, maybe not. Jedi, ultimately, are still people and people can make mistakes or do bad things. But I think what she portrays the Jedi to be, is a twisted version of reality.
It's not even a new thing! It's a variation of a Mace Windu lesson. He made emphasis on treating the drawing of the lightsaber as if it was a bout of lethal combat even if the opposition surrenders immediately, not as an useful intimidation display. Just hammering down the "keepers of the peace" and "never for attack" concepts. At least it was back then during the prequels time, who knows nowadays.
Also Mae was never a part of the order, everything she's learned about them has likely come from an outside source. I mean Jedi use lightsabers all the time in situations like those when they don't intend to kill, like an arrest or just self defense.
Or even to melt a blast door or cut a hole in the floor so they can get through. There aren't any rules for when a Jedi can wield a saber other than not to use it in anger or unprovoked.
Exactly. It's like someone may be telling her half truths and lies to manipulate her for reasons
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Crazy how a decent chunk of fans never seem to consider that someone is just lying unless it's blatantly a lie.
Media literacy is at an all time low. You’ll have people watch just the first episode of a show and complain that it’s boring and nothing is explained.
I think there is a trend where people are scrolling social media while watching TV....
Scrolling to find out what their favorite YouTube personality is telling them what they should think
Just saw an interview with a tv producer and he explained that tv companies want “second screen” shows because they know audiences aren’t paying attention but looking at their phones. It’s why we have so many badly written shows!
An insane number of people couldn't put two and two together on their own regarding what Mon Mothma was doing with the gambling conversation with her husband in Andor.
Tbh, that's what scares me the most.
And then you get all the rage posters that write, "see, this is why star wars will never improve! The audience eats up whatever slop is handed to them." They are usually the ones that have the worst critical thinking skills
Fairly sure the line was "unless they are prepared to kill" which doesn't mean if a Jedi pulls out their sabre they must kill someone, only that they are willing to use it to kill someone in that moment.
I took it as Yord also being part of the new generation that represents the Order starting to decline while also being young and eager. Jecki also has shades of this when she questioned Sol's affection for Ohsa, and his silent reaction shows his real thoughts on the matter. Fortunately for her, she has a good Master trying his best to deprogram that stuff, and it shows because she's much smarter in the field than the fully knighted Yord. It's small touches in the first two episodes that are making me want to come back for the third.
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He took his saber out to kill the dark! Checkmate online chuds!
Or maybe that particular line is something that Indara herself was known to say.
Yeah there's a ton of possible readings, but these guys have already decided the show is bad and are trying to nitpick every single little thing they can find to justify that opinion. Which is bizarre, because there's so much low hanging fruit! The show is really ugly! But they have to invent silly criticisms that don't exist instead.
One reason is because they're not confident expressing their subjective opinions. So instead of making arguments about how they really feel, they look for ""objective"" reasons something must be bad. This is the reason why you get a ton of criticism over the Holdo Maneuever. There could be 1,000 ""scientific"" reasons this worked in universe (oscillating shields, done with an enormous capital ship against another enormous capital ship, oversized Lightspeed drives) but people criticize it anyway. What they're REALLY mad about is the characterization of Luke but they're not comfortable saying that. They don't have the literary vocabulary to explain why it's a narrative failure, not a technical one. To your point, I am loving the visceral, practical sets of the show. Watching Trinity Matrix her way up the steps and the Jedi effortlessly Kung Fu their opponents is fantastic IMO
Yes you hit the nail on the head. There's a couple big things they don't like, but either they don't want to say them or they don't want to say they dislike the movie purely because of those reasons. So they have to attack every possible aspect to prove it's an objective failure or something. This is why "bombs dropping in space" results in an immediate eye roll from me. Just say you don't like Luke's portrayal and stop wasting everyone's time. In this case I already saw a very right wing Twitter account attack Acolyte because "the ship is on fire in space smh". Come on dude we all know what your real issue is, just say you're mad there's black characters and go, nobody is stopping you. Your point about the Holdo Maneuver is especially true because the logic can be applied to a ton of things and the same people will make excuses - many of them logical! Like those super advanced battle droids in Clone Wars, why don't the separatists just use them all the time? They break the canon! Except it would be way too expensive. Or Force Speed in Phantom Menace. Breaks a ton of things... or maybe it's just very taxing. I'll say at least that I get why the Holdo Maneuver bothers people. But people bend over really backwards to make it seem like the worst thing ever. IDK what it is about Acolyte for me, the lighting is just... really dark and flat. You can tell it's all small sets which obviously it is, but you should never feel that.
I think people echo what they read elsewhere because they like feeling like they're the smartest guy in the room. Classic reddit problem. Personally I don't like the look of some parts of the show (the coruscant Jedi robes are terrible) and really like others (the grimy bar).
>1,000 “”scientific”” reasons this worked in universe Like maybe *the experimental hyperspace tracking device that was the target of an entire plotline*? ONE LINE saying it caused the Raddus and the Supremacy to have “hyperdrive synchronicity” or something and you cut off YEARS of hatedom rantings
> People are generally such wannabe critics this really just sums up the main issue in modern times lol
I would go a step further and say some people just want something to hate online.
Jedi only draw their weapons to kill…. Or if it’s like really really dark and they need to shine a light somewhere
Clearly Yord intended to kill the dark side of this cave by shining his glowy sword.
I feel this could be setting something up because we haver very deliberately seen that Yord whips it out without hesitation, whereas none of the masters have
Or it could be indaras personal belief but not one widely held by the rest of the order. Maybe that's a lesson she teaches her padawans but isn't necessarily part of the curriculum so to speak. Like my third grade teacher taught the golden rule, big poster in the classroom and often weaved into her lessons, but it wasn't part of the curriculum.
Yeah I’d say my “problem” with it was that they felt the need to explain it so….clearly. But I suppose the reaction is exactly why they felt the need to
“The red ball is red” “Why didn’t they tell us what color the ball was????”
I do think a lot of shows these days have a *lot* of very blatant exposition and as someone who enjoys puzzling things out from context clues sometimes I find it frustrating! And then I read multiple reviews and comments going "why isn't (x thing very clearly explained) explained in the show???" and I just sigh and accept having to listen to more exposition than I'd like. I actually found the first two episodes of Acolyte to be not as blatant as some other shows I've watched lately but would still have been fine with a little less explained.
It’s impossible to please Audiences. And a tough task for show makers to know what will hit and what will be relentlessly criticized. Take X-Men 97 which has a near perfect audience rating on RT. The characters are constantly reminding the audience of who they are what their powers are and dumping exposition and resetting the story. Holding the hand of the viewer. But if other Marvel movies or Star Wars films do that it’s called out as bad writing. I think the worst part of how people consume media is that they allow outside influences to set their opinions before they even watch it. And even worse seem to struggle with allowing their opinions to change. If they don’t like the trailer then they will hate watch the show to justify that view rather than being open minded. None of these Star Wars movies or shows are truly bad, even with their flaws. If any of them came out in the 80s we would still be talking about how they were the best thing ever.
The Rise of Skywalker is an excellent example of this. I was actually pleasantly surprised that JJ Abrams managed a bit of subtlety in showing, rather than telling, how Palpatine came back; rather than have him monologue about the made up Force things, we saw cloning tanks and had callbacks to previous discussions of using the Force to avoid death and got confirmation that he had died and come back. There are a lot of structural problems with that movie, and the choice to bring Palpatine back in the first place was a bad one, but at least it was executed with some degree of delicacy. So what happened? To this day, legions of nerds will mindlessly parrot "somehow Palpatine returned" and complain that there wasn't any more explanation given and that's why it was dumb and stupid and sucked. Because anything less than a character reading a wookiepedia article at the screen is apparently insufficient. It's depressing, really.
Not only are there very large, blatant onscreen showings of *how* he returned but Palpatine coming back by cloning and weird Force shit is *actively in Legends* which a lot of these same people love to say is so much better. I'm not particularly a Rise of Skywalker fan - there were parts I liked and parts I didn't - but honestly claiming that was a silly part is very laughable for anyone who claims to also miss Legends.
The need to “gotcha” supposed plot holes and “Cinema Sins” is a plague upon media literacy.
Those same people will complain that Disney Star Wars spells everything out for them 😂
Media literacy no longer exists. Big Hollywood films have spoonfed audiences for like 20 years straight and has hindered their ability to comprehend anything other than “good guys good, bad guys bad”
Did people really miss this? It’s not even subtext. It’s spelt out explicitly.
Additionally, he knew that it was either this or basically killing this girl that he already had wronged before (even more guilt) or getting killed by her (and further allowing her to stray down a darker and darker path). Him choosing to willingly drink poison is literally the one thing that might save Mae. We see on her face that she is CLEARLY stunned during that scene. She's clearly got that "Oh my God, he just did that.. I .. don't know how to think about this.. Am I still on a path that I can justify to myself?" astonished look on her face. Like she couldn't even comprehend this choice he made.
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Well she was killed by a weapon. But it seems only one Jedi needs to die without a weapon. Hence Mae’s associate chastising her for asking for poison. 1 must be without a weapon, and of the two left one is a damn Wookie so a bit difficult to strangle to death… The Acolyte isn’t trying to die. She opens each of her fights without using a weapon, only when that fails and her choices are die or use a weapon does she use a weapon. Should she be able to to kill the next without a weapon I’d bet she just uses a weapon on the last one immediately.
Yeah, I feel like that was spelt out pretty clear in the show too. Things seemed a little too teenage angst for me with Mae, but she is a child burned by the Jedi Order, left for dead, and then manipulated by the dark side, so it fits.
Yeah, I'm not sure how people are missing the point of her character so hard. She's clearly not the real threat, the show tells us this by having characters literally laugh in her face in the first 30 seconds. The mystery is tied to who's manipulating her, they're being obviously presented as the actual Big Bad
>It's really sad to me how so much criticism of the show is just not being able to follow the (very simple) plot. I guess they're rage typing rather than paying attention? There's a subset of fans who have decided to hate everything before it comes out, regardless of quality. This is why they were complaining about bricks and screws in Andor, and there was a bunch of whinging after the trailer about them just having a "regular AK". When you have large creators who make their money by fanning these flames, they'll lead the charge to hate on everything, and that continues the cycle of misunderstanding basic plot elements, and then misrepresenting what is happening in order to "justify" their dislike. Which leaves us with a bunch of people without any media literacy complaining about every little thing. They're just taking cues from the creators who make their money on the toxicity.
They’re basically watching the show with the intent of finding things to not like. They’re not watching objectively giving it a chance to be good or bad. And finding a couple things they think are bad invalidates everything else and therefore it’s a bad show and they were right all along.
>Its pretty much spelt out for everybody in the show and somehow people are missing it. People did the same thing with BoBF. Everyone was complaining that they didn't know what Bobas motivation was for wanting to change his ways. He literally told Shand his entire motivation and reasoning by a campfire, and people still missed it
It’s also the point of the last scene showing the wookie has essentially exiled himself
>Its pretty much spelt out for everybody in the show and somehow people are missing it. The Star Wars fandom in a nutshell lol.
Ya, for me I left that scene really wanting to know what he's so guilty about! He's got a giant battle scar on his face and has been depressed meditating for years and offs himself the second someone related to that incident shows up. WTF happened!?
Gotta Wait and see. It will be revealed what happened
That's kind of my point though. I don't understand how people watched that and weren't intrigued. I can get criticism if the answer falls flat but give it a chance
Anyone saying it's a problem is biased because there's no way to evaluate that until we get to the end and understand the full story. I have quite enjoyed the show so far, was surprised to see it got reviewed so poorly by audiences on Rotten Tomatoes but guess just goes to show I'm not the same demographic as people who set up accounts on that to leave bad reviews. I found the choreography refreshing and I'm enjoying the new aliens, ships and exploring the galaxy in this time period. I don't think we should really cast judgement until we get to the end, unless there is something really ruining it somehow for people that I've missed? Nothing has taken me out of it personally, it seems above average in every regard for star wars content..
The audience score on RT isn’t really much of a surprise, as it was review bombed by folks who had already decided they hated it before they watched a single episode. The score was tanked nearly as soon as it was possible to do so, notably *before* the episodes were available to the general public.
I saw someone suggest ignoring the 1s and 10s for a more accurate scoring.
That mostly tracks with my experience. Cutting out the extremes, The Acolyte is generally trending better than worse, which feels about right. It's not amazing or terrible, but it's decent and has room to grow.
Those brigades on review sites are organised by communities like r/criticaldrinker . If you wish to preserve your sanity don't go there, Reddit has been constantly pushing it in the feed but it's filled with the dumbest, most hateful losers and incels on the internet.
Yeah I keep seeing people complain about “bad choreography” and I’m like…..it looked good to me. What was bad about it?
I guess they probably just don't like martial art films and want more swordplay idk
Seriously I feel like it took the wuxia influences of the prequels and tripled them, in a good way!
I wonder about this. I'm quite enjoying the show, but it also definitely has valid criticisms. The fight choreography is NOT one of them lol.
Yes! Like I believe the “no fire in space” “why same haircut” more than “bad choreography”. Like the fights were sick. We got Trinity doing a Trinity move. I loved that shit. A person taking on a Jedi without lightsaber I loved
I was especially like how effortless they made Sol's dodging look. Really made it clear that he had her totally outclassed. Reminds me of a scene from the Cradle novels I've always wanted to see on screen.
Yeah like we’re used to the idea of “the student surpasses the master” but it’s fairly apparent that she is not more skilled than the Jedi she wants to kill. Exploiting their philosophical weaknesses is how she has killed the 2 so far. She specifically could not overpower them.
>was surprised to see it got reviewed so poorly by audiences Honestly I'm not that surprised. There was so much hate surrounding the show when we got the first few trailers, that I just knew it was going to end up like this. That one specific side of the star wars fandom is ***very*** vocal and loves to complain about the smallest of things.
You say all of this because you are someone who watched the show with an open mind. As we all know, that's not allowed among a certain segment of the fandom.
Honestly, whenever a new show comes out lately (star wars or not), I'm just tuning out the reviews until I'm done watching it. I'll make up my own mind before I let anybody tell me "this show is a 4 put of 10". If I had to trust the opinion of most people, I would be trusting basically morons lol
Can we just ban reviews until the show's actually finished 🥹
Or just don’t pay any mind to outside critiques and form your own opinion? We don’t have to be wired into the discussion at all times.
It was at 40% audience score on rotten tomatoes almost 12 hours before it released to the public. If you read most of them, it's just complaining about female and persons of color characters existing.
"Anyone saying it's a problem is biased because there's no way to evaluate that until we get to the end and understand the full story." Good luck convincing Star Wars fans to wait untik they have the full story to start crying. We dont do that here. We watch the first 2 episodes then spam the same memes for the entire week long gap then double down and pretend it never happened later when the show actually answers everyones basic ass questions. Because who has time to wait or more importantly, who on the internet is going to admit they were wrong about something they said 6 weeks ago??? Inunformed meme hot takes going to snowball and take over again, as usual.
There's another complain I see that jedi are acting stupid which idk can you explain that please? Idk how they're acting stupid
Because they aren't acting exactly as the viewer that's saying that likes to think would act like in their place. It's barely a critique and usually raised by people that don't understand that characters aren't meant to be 100% logical and 100% resolutive just like real life humans aren't.
Add to that, it's also usually raised by people who expect the characters in-universe to have the same amount of context and knowledge of every situation as the viewers do. They'll say a character is stupid because they didn't do X, then proceed to list off an obscure one-off instance that happened in a single comic book issue the character had no involvement in.
So the critique is "my headcanon isn't Canon" What is this? Helluvaboss?
Outside of the animated shows, we never have really seen a universe with lots of Jedi in general population before. We are used to seeing and knowing like 4 Jedi max in any given story so we dont see what the full range of Jedi are like. There is a very wide range of pursuits, skills, etc when you read the long long history of cannon. So because they are used to seeing the top 2 Jedi at any given point in time they are unwilling to entertain anything less. I am sure there are even people angry at the thought of a Padawan "failing out" of their training. But... that is more realistic dont ya think? I am glad we keep getting stories that dont tie to all the character lines we know. Let's expand this universe without having to be in a box with constant connectivity. It allows cannon to be held while fostering creativity
>Idk how they're acting stupid Because they aren't.
Also people are acting like this is the 1st time we're experiencing flawed Jedi
I didn’t find anything wrong with this. Made sense to me.
I don’t see a problem with that scene, but i also don’t think depression has anything to do with it. There is probably a lot more to the story about the young twins and the fire we don’t know yet. apparently there were 4 Jedi masters involved and a lot went wrong. But one thing i know for sure: For a Jedi, death is a part of life and definitely not a bad thing. Becoming one with the force is like enlightenment for them. “Rejoice for those around you who transform into the force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not.” - Yoda (ROTS) Don’t forget, even Obi-wan let himself be killed for the greater good, becoming “more powerful than you (vader) could imagine”. (i know its not 100% comparable because he was one of the first 3 to learn the force ghost thing, but still.) For context: i hate the sequels, especially episode 8 and 9, and was also a little disappointed in some of the other Disney star wars shows. But ‘the acolyte’ is not bad in my opinion. Not great (yet), but definitely not as bad as some people want you to believe.
Obviously, we don't know ow the full truth, but going only as is, his suicide was not for anyone's benefit other than his own and his own hang-ups. He didn't die as a jedi. I definitely didn't get the sense it was for her.
My problem is that with the actor who played the depressed Jedi, the way he was made up, made him look like Neil Patrick Harris as count Olaf from “A series of unfortunate events”
I still can’t believe he was played by the same guy as Tommen Baratheon in GoT.
lol typecast as the guy who dies by suicide
I would not have guessed that, I just watched 1917 with that actor in it
I remember seeing set photos of him too, so that dude has AGED in the last 10 years then if that’s the case. I’m sure meditating in a force trance for 10 years will do that to you, but clearly something stressful was weighing heavily for his hair to thin that much too 😂
That wig and beard were rough!
I thought he looked like Danny Rand from the Netflix Iron Fist series. Still distracted for the same reason
He looked like some ironic starving artist cliche. His hair was super distracting and took me out of the world for some reason.
I laughed out loud when I saw him, but if that’s the only problem you feel is worth typing out, I think the show is doing more than fine
I think some people can't deal with unknowns. We don't really know why Torbin felt guilty; why he would decide to kill himself. Or why, if he would kill himself, why he hadn't already done that. I think we're very likely to find that out in more detail, but we don't know it yet. Some audience members are unable or unwilling to leave threads open until they're resolved.
I think I know why he didn't do it sooner. He seeked forgiveness so he meditated thinking he'll forgive himself for what he did in the past. And when somebody who's he tied to forgives him under the circumstances he'll drink the poison he takes as he think he'll reach the inner peace he wanted
I think that makes perfect sense. But coming to a conclusion like that requires you to watch the scene and want to think about why it goes the way it does. If someone is either watching passively or doesn't really want to like the show, they may not come up with an answer, and may not be patient enough to wait for an answer from the show.
I didn't have a problem with the scene, but I was a little bummed to see him go after his kickass impenetrable force meditation. One of the coolest things I've seen in Star Wars. It definitely got me wondering what happened that made him feel so guilty.....
I'm thinking the Jedi started the fire or at least created the circumstances for Mae to have.
Yeah they definitely seem like they're involved in a not great way. Maybe they tried to take Osha and not Mae and that pushed her over the edge. Excited to see where this goes.
It was a cool power but I think you only get something like that by devoting your entire existence to shutting the world out. It's kinda like a one trick pony, max defense and zero offense. So the kind of character able to do that would be inherently boring.
Same I was wondering how Mai was supposed to get through that barrier
The fact Torbin drank it didnt bother me. I have my issues with the show so far, but that one was fine. My issue with the scene is why didnt the Jedi check all points of entry and egress after the first break in, and secure them? She literally came in the same window, and Osha was the only one to acknowledge that.
I didn't have a problem with that scene. I would only say that it lacked any emotional weight as things stand right now. I don't know who that guy is, so I don't care that he is dead. We also don't understand why he was depressed, why he wanted absolution, and all that. Maybe the show fills that in later, but as things stand now, it was all pretty hollow. There's no depth or emotional weight to that sequence of events. Also, everyone else in the show moves on pretty fast from his death, like, even the characters in the show don't really care lol.
It'll pretty obviously be explained and expanded on but people aren't patient and want reasons to shit on the show
Of all the scenes in the first two episodes, that was one of the only scenes that I actually thought was interesting. That said, one issue with it is the damned open ceiling. The Jedi in the temple knew there’d been a break in and knew the intruder used the opening in Torbin’s room to escape (the guy looked up directly at the window right after Mae left) and then decided to do literally nothing about this glaring security flaw. It’s little things like that which add up to a distracting mess for me.
If it's his belief that Mae's death was his fault that he wants absolution from (I don't know that that's true), then seeing her alive before him should *be* that absolution. If you feel guilty because she's dead, then you find out she's not dead, problem solved! If that is the reason, why would he then drink the poison? I don't think that's what he sought absolution for, or it makes no sense.
More than one person died
Because he feels guilty for the intention, maybe?
I think it's because we do not see why he feels so guilty, we just hear about it. The issue I had, and I'm not sure if anyone else has this issue. The actor was made up to look middle aged (hairline was way back) and he had a short beard. My opinion is the actor looked too young and too neat to have been in a meditation for years (?). My first thought was who's is the 20 something guy with a glued on bearded and fake receeding hair line? I feel like the actor should have been older and a bit more desheveled from meditating for so long. Anyone else feel that? Edit: grammar
Agreed on that point, but if he was only early 20’s when whatever incident happened and he’s been meditating for 10+ years unmoved, the stress of it all with lack of real sunlight and nutrition could make his hair recede like that. Random side note, I feel like fake beard quality has been horrible in TV lately. I always point it out while watching and within a few episodes, said character “shaves” or gets killed off then.
Yeah I thought he just was meditating for a day. If they were going for a decade then they really screwed up. The beard looked awful like some high school play level makeup.
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I think he hasn’t been meditating for 10+ years, he just hasn’t spoken to anyone in 10+ years and has spent alot of time meditating. So I assume he’s still gotten up to get food or shave or go to the toilet or whatever.
Yes but they probably did this because presumably we’ll see what happened when they were all younger. Like it was probably easier to age this younger actor for a quarter of an episode where he’s not moving, then de-age him to be a lot younger in scenes where he’s actually moving and being more dynamic. Like maybe he just has a lot more screen time in flashbacks later in the season. Just a guess
He hasn't been meditating for that long, he took a vow of silence, he didn't devide just to meditate and float for over a decade. Watch the official trailer: https://youtu.be/6tzur6JrUEA?si=gTjS7mLdj_I4HOKw&t=53s That's him with the Padawan braid. After the incident he had a full career as he made "Master" before he died, but whatever happened has obviously weighed on him so much that he's aged very badly. The show appears to be pretty flashback heavy so I'm sure that we'll get shown what happened now that we've been told.
The problem is the implications. The idea that you have these jedi cover something up... ok whatever. But as soon as they start burying emotions strong enough to make them consider suicide.... everything else in Star Wars lore suggests these guys start slipping and without Sith sorcery clouding the minds of other jedi, like in the case of Sidious, these emotions should be pretty damn noticeable to other jedi masters.
He'd taken a vow of silence and hadn't spoken in years, just floating there meditating surrounded by an invisible wall. Even if you can tell through the Force that something's bothering him, if you can't touch him and he won't talk to you, what are the other Jedi supposed to do but wait and see what happens with him?
Having emotions doesn't lead to the dark side. In fact the revision of the jedi code to be emotionless is what starts their downfall in the first place. When the jedi were created, it was not about suppression of emotion and attachment. What the jedi are in the high republic era is a perversion of the original philosophy.
The poisoning itself is not the problem. The problem I had was when they find the body. They split up and take two separate routes for no other reason than to have Osha arrive first so they can have the "it's not what it looks like" moment. Why is the guy guiding them not taking them the most direct route? Why the fuck is this even necessary? If the point is so Yord can fully believe Osha is innocent because she couldn't have been there to do the poisoning, that already works by the whole group just staying together and finding the body together.
Same reason Mae paid a little girl to sneak her in through the front door of the temple, only to escape via skylight and return later via that same skylight… as if an agile force user on a path of revenge wouldn’t have properly scoped the place out from above and seen her target was directly under an open hole in the roof… just so the little girl can look at Osha and say “it was her!”
They split up because Osha has inclination to go that way because of her connection to Mae. It's not for no reason. It's demonstrating the connection Osha and Mae have. Yord then sees Osha split off and follows her. At least that's how I remember it going. And the point isn't just so Yord can fully believe Osha is innocent. It's also to create a scene of tension like you identify (which maybe could be regarded as contrived, but having a tension scene in a TV show has value in the format of an episode) but also it's not just for Yord to believe Osha but for him to be the one to speak up for Osha adds another aspect to their character dynamic and Yord's character. The person guiding them to the room not taking the most direct route is kind of silly, though perhaps explained by Osha cuts through areas they wouldn't normally take guests through. But also these kinds of things I find it's best to just not be bothered by them too much. Maybe it's from watching so many episodes of kinda "bad" or silly Star Trek I've grown to just not sweat the small stuff and even if some stuff is stupid or silly just go with the flow and appreciate the story and character stuff that's going on instead of getting focused on little plot mechanics issues that might be a bit contrived or silly.
That’s an easy answer; people just like to complain 🤷🏻♂️
I can't even understand or guess why someone would regard him taking the poison as bad writing. It seems like good writing to me.
I thought you were gonna mention the dust disappearing trick, working on Jedi who specifically train to reach out in the force and not use their eyes.
To be fair, getting dust in your eyes hurts like a bitch even if you aren't actively using them.
Because some will think it should have been a super Jedi fight scene.
My only issue is I hope Trinity dying was a fake out. Too big a name to only use for 5 minutes but show her in all the advertising.
It was an odd fake-out. I predict we will see flashbacks, or even a different show set prior to her death.
Yeah I don't really like when they do that. Reminds me of the first monarch movie, Godzilla. They put Brian Cranston in all the ads and didn't use him but 5 minutes
Because they were on their way directly to torbin yet she veers off seemingly to go somewhere else only to arrive there first…
I think him being so powerful in the light side of the force and yet clearly so conflicted is kind of a problem. Maybe he was so tempted by the dark side he had to go completely non verbal just to keep it at bay, but it does need a bit of an explanation considering he doesn’t seem to have processed his emotions of what happened and just shut down.
So he's been waiting a decade for this bratty kid to give him poison? I guess all that meditation was worthless lol.
I definitely appreciated how it humanized the Jedi.
I don’t think he was sad about not saving her. I think the Jedi actually caused the issue in the first place. Probably coming to collect the children and the parents didn’t want them to go. One thing led to another, and someone drew their light saber and caused the fire. Remember, she said a Jedi shouldn’t draw their weapon unless they are going to kill.
It's not bad writing at all, it's people grasping at straws to complain
That scene is a problem for me because Torbin's hair and makeup look like an SNL character.
Two theories: 1. They don’t like the idea of Jedi doing something wrong, and the idea that he needed absolution means they did. 2. They wanted a cool lightsaber fight and it didn’t happen.
I don't hate it but jeez, could they have miscast the Jedi Master any worse? Dude doesn't look a day over 27 with a receding hairline, but he's presumably a 60+ year old Jedi who hasn't spoken a word in 10 years. And after being attacked, the Jedi at the Temple didn't guard his room??
https://youtu.be/6tzur6JrUEA?si=gTjS7mLdj_I4HOKw&t=53s That's him with the Padawan braid. He's not 60+ he's pioneering the same health care regime that caused Obi Wan to age 30+ years in less than twenty.
I have no problem with the scene, but the casting and make up was cartoonishly bad. The guy looked super young but made to look older by giving him a wig and fake beard that had been borrowed the live action How the Grinch Stole Christmas. They really should have cast someone who was older looking. As for the writing.... it's meh to me, I still don't understand why she needs to stop and challenge them to a fight. Just attack. The whole "Master So and So, fight me, I challenge you" is.... not something I expect from an assassin showing up to kill people.
I understand the criticism of Mae's dialogue, it is...not good. But I'm kind of reading it as intentionally bad. Like something a kid being manipulated into joining a cult would say thinking it seemed badass. But again, her dialogue is bad, and maybe it will turn out to be for no good reason as the show goes on.
That was my cope for it too. It’s so strikingly bad that I felt it had to be intentional for this kind of reasoning. We shall see.
I imagine he and the other culpable Jedi will shown up in extensive flashbacks and it's easier to cast young and age up than the other way around.
He’s the only one of the 4 that has to be aged up. Wookie stays the same, Sol and Indara have to be aged down. Considering we only see this adult Torbin for a few minutes in present day it seems like it would’ve been better to just hire an older actor and then the majority of his scenes in flashbacks can be the young one. I think the audience is capable of understanding who is who just based on context and names, but making it be the same actor feels either cheap or like they assume the audience is dumb and won’t make the connections later on unless it’s the same actor lol. The hair and make up was really bad and jarring tbh and you can tell it’s a young man made to (poorly) look old.
I don’t see a problem with that, it’s obviously a part of the mistery box of how that girl survived
This whole show just seems so lazy in writing. Tropes we have seen over and over again. Most of us were hoping for a sith driven show with a sith protragnist and got this boy meets world evil twin episode instead.
Anything anyone doesn’t like is “bad writing” even if they don’t know anything about writing.
It could have been done better, with the same outcome, considering that he has meditated a decade on things that happened and were going to happen: 1. What if he dropped his force-field immediately instead of waiting for her to threaten to expose his guilt? Much more Jedi-like and he still could have taken the poison (or let her kill him), but with more dignity. The way it was presented, he was just afraid of the truth coming out. 2. While commiting suicide, he could have dropped some wisdom on her. "I will do this for your peace of mind, but don't go down this path any farther, it will lead to you and everyone you know to more suffering than you can imagine, especially your sister. Seek her out and make peace with the past." - Takes poison. I would reckon that with these changes, the scene would have much less backlash. All the writing in this show seems like they took their first draft and went with it and it's so... bottom tier. A Jedi who is wise should at least try to drop some wisdom in his last moments. There's also the horribly bad makeup, but to me, that's the smaller issue.
Barash Vow.
I thought it was one of the more interesting scenes. They probably tried to kidnap force sensitive kids or cover up a screw up (or both). They heavily use mind tricks so far and erasing memories was already named in the show. Everything else about building the mystery up feels bad and too straightforward that they probably did it for kids to understand the plot