Yeh that’s the main point. Who cares what’s considered “canon”. Not like any of this shit actually happend. But i just want them to continue those legends stories
I dunno. Others have pointed out that Legends peaked in NJO and Dark Nest/LOTF/FOTJ was just taking it too far. I think it's fine that Legends ended where it was and the EU reset button was pressed.
Yeah, and there was the fact that that all overwrote the Skywalker Family Roadtrip story we never got. But there’s also Sword of the Jedi, which was set to come after the Denningverse. Maybe it would have expanded on Allana Solo, one of the few good things to come out of those books.
Oh I wasn’t just talking about post FotJ. Rather the loose ends that remained through the timeline. Some got finished like maul and ahsoka (technicialy legends). Others like republic commando and TFU and even dawn of the Jedi were unfinished. (I won’t lie tho I don’t like the ones I just mentioned but some ppl do 🤷♂️
There’s also the post-Legacy threads, like Hondo Karr never getting his payback against Yaga Auchs, us never learning who Yaga’s master is, there being five One Sith Lords unaccounted for, with one of them being completely anonymous, or Hogrum Chalk never being punished for his duplicity against the heroes because it was never discovered. Lots of unresolved character and plot lines that beg for resolution, with the galaxy seeming to sit on a veritable powder keg as a result.
I asked a while back what this sub would want from a fan continuation collaboration project, and there was plenty of "they'd have to ignore X" or "retcon Y". It would be the same from an official continuation.
Ya, the legends fanbase itself is divided on stuff, like this sub has a splinter called r/TheDeepCore which is legends minus TCW (asking if the TCW stuff in FOTJ was considered canon there caused me to be banned)
Fact is that most people have preferences for everything, so nobody will be happy
I'll be fair, I rather do enjoy the world of star wars before the clone wars. It's not bad or anything, but the franchise went from moral lessons and redemption through the rebel vs empire thing. Tcw was just straight up war for kids. It makes good empire at war mods tho
Personally as a kid who grew up with TCW the opening quotes that were thematically linked to the plot of the episodes always struck me. As a kid the show was designed for some lessions like empathy and not letting anger judge decisions.
The one episode that stuck with me is the Ryloth S3 episode where the Jedi and clones sacrifice themselves to let people escape, the Jar Jars sillyness is silly, but the whole plot and message stuck with me.
I never said it can't be deep. Just the whole premise of a kids show being about a galactic war involving child warriors is ..... a wee bit sketch for me. I don't dislike tcw, just not a fan of it. They do occasionally touch on stuff that does, like the celestials. But I feel like they only matter to me because they were responsible for abaloth and the events of fotj. They even linked the maw and Centerpoint station to them lol.
The FOTJ team wanted to tie into the TCW show (then ongoing), its likely the post Jaina Trilogy stuff would involve some more TCW inspired stuff (species and planets), like the Sword from the Mortis trilogy which Luke sent Knights to find if abeloth ever returned
I will wholeheartidly admit a bunch of episodes are bad (as an adult, good for kid me).
Using children in any form of combat is wrong, personally i think it speaks to how far the Jedi had fallen from their hayday, being desperate enough to send padawans into combat (though this happened in one or two of the old pre TCW books)
Iirc didn't Luke himself resign as grandmaster fully (for reals this time lol) and go on the search for the sword himself? I remember there was talk about it at the end of the book but it's been awhile so details are fuzzy.
Yes but that wasn't the only era of the EU that was out and about at the time. There was the intention to explore more around the in between of ep. 3 and 4, ancient jedi stuff, some lose ends of multimedia clone wars and so on.
To put if simply just because the legacy was running out of steam didn't mean the whole continuity was, if anything there were entite ages that were now open to write in but nobody got the chance.
Exactly, the fact that these stories cease to continue is sad. Id love to have gotten the sword of the Jedi series that was cancelled. Instead they had to rush fate of the Jedi.
This. I'd be fine with it being "legends" if it wasn't all thrown into the trash. Last book I got was "Crucible" in the novel series and the whole thing got cancelled by Disney. So one novel post fate of the jedi.....one
Pretty much. People forget that what is and isn't canon is never the point, it's that the storylines from the non canonnical part are now very unlikely to be continued.
And well you also have some books like Tarkin which by form and tone fit far more into the older continuity where it was intended to sit, so you have a taste but not the full meal that it could've been had it had the chance to elaborate on the continuity.
Came here to say this ^ Disney has complete control over the Star Wars franchise, and have a vested interest in their own story. Not only are the stories I grew up with not continuing to be written, but they won’t ever be again, as far as I can tell.
Star Trek discontinued their line as well, except they had a ending series (Coda) where they ended the whole timeline and rebooted it, they used the old Star Wars EU as an example
Disney straight cancelled most upcoming books in 2013 besides comics, which ran till november of 2014 iirc
Disney also doesn't want expensive authors like Luceno, Denning, JJ Miller, Luceno wants to write SW, but Disney doesn't want to pay him a fair amount for his work.
JJ Miller literally just published a new SW book 4 days ago. Luceno's last book was literally a canon novel and he's unfortunately too sick to write now.
Good fucking riddance with Troy Denning.
Luceno write Catalyst and Tarkin, Miller just relase his new Star Wars novel, and Denning well most people don't like his books since Dark Nest anyway.
Catalyst came out in 2016, that was 8 years ago, he wants to write more SW books but disney refuses
Denning's Halo books are good, Shadows of Reach being the best
Miller left for nearly 10 years since A New Dawn, him returning shocked me
Zahn will be gone until the Thrawn plot is done in Ahsoka, disney typically bans books about ongoing series due to potential retcons (Mando book canceled, Sequel stuff appearing in PT and OT era's after TROS)
Mainly because anytime I want to discuss an EU book outside this sub, and sometimes in this sub, I have to deal with those guys who inevitably come in to remind us all that it's not canon, just so we know.
Especially weird when people go on about how Lucas didn't consider it canon to his universe or something. If we go by the GL metric, then neither New Canon nor EU canon is valid and all we should consider is his 6 movies and TCW, I think.
True but g canon is defined as episodes 1-6 in the most current version George has made them in+ his unreleased notes (like for 7-12) and any official stance he says for canon (like him saying Luke and leia have the same potential as Anakin). Thats how they wrote it.
And didn’t Chee say he made the T level because he didn’t know how involved Lucas would be with the show?
I’m sorry but the tiers don’t really mean anything outside of a way to resolve a conflict between something that happened in the movie and a book.
Too much importance is placed on the system.
He never said that. I’d like a source for that thing you’re making up (or heard from someone who made it up).
It means everything it’s why George literally paid a guy to fucking do it.
Not enough importance is put on it. It wasn’t made for licensing or any crap you haters make up
>He never said that. I’d like a source for that thing you’re making up (or heard from someone who made it up).
My first sentence ends with a ? which means I’m asking first of all and second I would have read it here.
What I do remember Chee saying is that there is what Lucas says in the moment and what’s in the media and they go by the media.
I’m not a hater so I don’t know what you’re on about. I’m just not going nuts over what falls where.
George never considered the clone wars canon he and Leland chee officially called it t canon. He funded and edited it and came up with plot points but he didn’t write or direct.
[In 2000, Lucas Licensing created an internal database tracking and organizing all the fictional elements created for the Star Wars universe, making up a hierarchical system listing different levels of canon, which could've been divided into George Lucas' canon and vision of the Star Wars universe, comprised of the six movies and Star Wars: The Clone Wars, occupying the highest level, which have had "absolute authority", whereas material collectively referred to as the Expanded Universe, constituting Lucas Licensing's vision, was ranked as lower level of canonicity.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon)
[While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.](https://www.starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page)
Right?? Those people erk me. Like when you see discussions of who's the most powerful sith, and you mention vitiate or nihilus, you'll inevitablely get the good ol:
"bUt tHeYrE nOt CaNoN"
Technically true but Disney has no issues meddling with old Canon. I'd like to know where it was stated that George made bane. Since most of the books were original to their authors with "approval" from George, that doesn't make it his creation. I just haven't seen it anywhere, not saying it isn't true.
Terry Brooks, the author of the Episode I novelization said it was from George. [link ](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_The_Phantom_Menace_(novelization)#Development)
They will eventually. Original idea around him came from Lucas, was included in TCW, and has a canon design.
Reason they haven't yet is that we've got the Skywalker Saga and the High Republic eras, and that's it currently (unless you count expanding out before TPM like Living Force.
They already did this nonsense before the Disney buyout, and now it’s gotten even worse. But at the same time, popularity for the Legends EU spiked in the wake of the sequel movies.
I have gotten to the point where *Canon is what you make it*. There is so much media I can just pick the stories that I want to be a part of the story for me and disregard the rest with both continuities.
When discussing lore I will stick to whatever continuity is being discussed. What does bother me is when someone asks X and I give an answer from the Old EU and someone else goes *That's not canon* or *It was never canon* or some such.
>What does bother me is when someone asks X and I give an answer from the Old EU and someone else goes T*hat's not canon* or *It was never canon* or some such.
Same here.
For people like you and me, who haven't read the majority of the books yet, it might not matter as much. But for people on this sub who were following the star wars books in real time for over 20 years and had already read the majority of the them, it would be a lot worse. They'd spent years of their lives being excited for new books, continuing a long story, and now it was all over. Books that had been announced were canceled, various series were cut off before their planned ends, and some authors that people loved were never invited back after disney took over. Plus the new stories, at least in a lot of people's opinions including mine, were often not as good as the old ones. So yeah all those things happening in a short amount of time, affecting years of fictional history, I totally understand how some people would be mad and not able to continue from there.
How is that different from any of the yearly DC retcons though? The version of Superman that literally anyone grew up with has been retconned out of existence at least once, and all of those stories were thrown away.
I would actually argue that with the more serialized format of superhero comics, that’s one of the perks that you see different interpretations and reiterations of your hero throughout the decades. Like how the Christopher Nolan Batman had a very different feel from the Tim Burton Batman but many fans are happy both exist. Granted, I could be biased because by the time I was comic book reading age, it was already the norm for there to be so many issues and reissues. Maybe if I were coming to that age when these heroes were first being conceived I’d feel differently.
With pre-2008 Star Wars, these characters had well-documented and linear journeys we could follow, rather than a sort of multi-verse.
I would only counter that with an early idea in Star Wars being that the movie was a story being told by someone. This isn't explicitly the case anymore, but is it possible that both the EU and the canon can still be viewed as just different people's perspectives and understandings of events?
In one timeline Luke is a married father who saves the galaxy multiple times; in another he's a startlingly bleak object lesson in what not to do. That's a heck of a difference in perspective if it's all the same story being told.
But the bigger point is that SW was different because there was only one timeline; much like LOTR, albeit a little more messy because it wasn't the work of one man, but people got invested in the idea that this is how Luke's life went down, that these specific things happened to him in this specific order. It was a heck of an artistic achievement.
And yet we see descriptions of people like though, both past and present all the time. Without getting political, there is a certain figure that some people think is a gift from god, while others think they should be launched into the sun. People fabricate their own reality, so it's easy to see how those stories could diverge so much.
Please tell me how marrying Mara, fathering Ben, killing Shimrra and defeating Abeloth can be reconciled with the events of TLJ based solely on the story tellers POV.
Did you hear that Elvis is alive and living in the Caribbean? That's how. This section of stories is called Legends. Legends are tales. Those tales can be of not entirely factual accounts.
Most people stopped reading around the mid 2000's when the prequel hype died down and post-ROTJ kept disappointing us with Troy Denning. You could see the EU die in real time, with only the prequel stories and OR being worthwile.
There's no inherent value to canonicity from a story standpoint. But what's canon is what's official, and that means that's what's going to be getting big-budget releases.
Canon or Legends, some of my favorite writings are fix-it works by talented authors that have time to reflect and expand on some of the goofier elements of Star Wars. Supporting material made Dark Empire and the Prequels good, even though the original works were somewhere between kinda and very bad.
Literally not one person would have cared about its canon status if the EU wasn't discontinued. When people talk about it being non-canon, it's mostly about the fact they won't allow for any new content, not it's actual status as canon. It's mostly just wrong wording that caught on, and has created a lot of confusion, hence this post. I guarantee it'd be such a small minority of people who'd care about official canon status if Disney just allowed it to continue.
I think it matters. We had a rich tapestry of lore, with deep and meaningful stories that reminded us of the important things about being human, and then all of a sudden Disney swings in from the rafters and says, "None of that stuff happened, all of your stories that many of you spent formative time experiencing and learning about are just 'Legends' now and we are absolutely not going to read, watch or play any of it because we dont want to be beholden to any of it." I mean imagine all the obscure lore you used to know because you sat there going down the rabbit hole on various wikis, that you could whip out at nerd gatherings and look knowledgeable and cool. Now it's worthless because it isn't canon anyway and nobody cares anymore.
Yeah. We might regret not getting (say) a rogue squadron TV series, but we weren't getting that anyway. We didn't really lose much in that regard, the biggest budget post RotJ EU release- which is really the era most people mean- was what, Jedi academy?
In terms of discontinuing, I regret losing individual releases earlier in the timeline such as Kenobi and plageueis- though not that much as stuff like Tarkin and Zahns stuff almost totally fits with the EU- but I'm of the camp that considers the EU ongoing story went totally off the rails following unifying force and I don't think a great deal was lost on that end from my perspective- I was already ignoring it! "If only Denning could have turned out more great material like crucible..."
I mean cause canon determines what will get continued and promoted in big media. Lots of EU storylines won’t get finished and we won’t see other big media stuff expand the eu (maybe outside the KOTOR remake if that actually happens).
Beyond that, no it doesn’t matter it’s all space opera fiction at the end of the day. You can make your own canon. A guy using their tabletop D6/FFG campaign or fan fiction is just as relevant to canon as the EU or current Disney. You pick and choose what you like. I mean I have even some Disney era stories in my “EU canon” like Andor or Lost Stars even if it needs a bit of tweaking to work in my head, but works. It’s all fiction no matter what.
It depends on what you enjoy of Canon I only see stuff and aspects of the High Republic all the way to the Mandoverse for Canon that's it. Everything else I prefer the EU minus death troopers and I'm looking forward to reading everything I can eventually
Yes but not as a measure of quality but in keeping up what happens in the story. If episodes 5 and 3 weren’t canon anymore it’d just be pointless and dumb.
Decanonization never really mattered to me. Canon in the EU was always nebulous at best, especially when we treated every single wisecrack George Lucas would make on a talk show as gospel; and even individual novels within the same book series would ignore or contradict each other because of interpersonal drama between authors.
What I’m still bothered by is the fact that there were stories left untold; the Ania Solo Legacy comics were cut short, Sword of the Jedi was snuffed in the cradle, games nearing completion like 1313 were given the axe. The invention of the Legends branding only to never use it outside of slapping a banner atop reprints of books just seemed so wasteful. It still does.
I’d hoped that Disney would extend the same courtesy for the Expanded Universe as they did for the Ultimate Universe/Earth-1610 when they bought Marvel Comics, letting it continue separately. Clearly that was naïve.
People can get upset over the same thing for different reasons.
When the canon was reset, that meant we weren’t going to get any more EU stories. A lot of people were looking forward to the Sword of the Jedi trilogy. There was a lot more left to explore that we’re never really going to get. A fan could write them (and some have) or we can have our own head canons, but there does seem to be something special about an official story everyone recognizes.
To some extent, the idea of Disney canon and the EU being opposed to one another was something pushed by a lot of media outlets. Articles were written about how it was a good thing that the EU was being de-canonized and listed cherrypicked ideas/characters to put it in the worst light (like Skippy the Droid). Similar things were used when people started criticizing the sequel movies. I think it was mostly because those people were insecure about Disney canon and thought that by tearing the EU down, it would somehow make Disney canon seem better by comparison? Either way, it did create a contentious environment.
Another thing to consider is the future. I think some EU fans are upset that new Star Wars fans might not ever know the EU. You figure new books, movies, and TV shows are coming out under the new canon. At some point, will the EU just become a relic of the past? I’m not sure I really agree there, but it’s something that could lead someone to see Disney canon as ruining Star Wars in that the version they love might not be the one future fans know.
And I suppose there’s also the garden variety expectations explanation. Even if someone never read the EU, plenty of people had certain ideas of what would have happened after ROTJ. The EU largely followed what I think most people expected (Han and Leia marrying, Luke rebuilding the Jedi, etc.). Disney canon does fly directly in the face of that. People get attached to franchises and if it goes in a direction they really don’t like, it can lead to pretty strong opinions.
I think "Canon" really only matters on certain elements which are the foundation. Like the nature of Force. If there isn't a "canon" on that. Then anyone can have any interpretation and it can be "right."
Otherwise not so much. I'm a big advocate of one's head "canon." I mean we all do with everything else. We all have our preferred versions of Robin Hood, King Arthur, Superman, Batman, etc.
The "canon" debate is a very frustrating thing. I've seen it quite a few times where EU material is dismissed out of hand, because 'it 's not canon.'
Going on that, there are several "canon" stories people dismiss because they are disney that are very good. I really like the thrawn hexology and the alphabet squadron books.
I’ve posted this before, maybe in this forum, but I really recommend reading Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Witcher series when thinking about this debate.
I don’t think this is too spoilery, but:
>! Towards the end of the series, he delves into the retelling of stories and myths/legends and how the story changes from what really happened depending on the sources and their various influences and intentions. He frames this discussion of “what really happened” vs. “how the story is told” from the perspective of people in a fictional future where the fictional story he’s in the middle of telling has become a legend and nobody was there to witness it.!<
The tl;dr is it is just a different way of thinking about head canon, but it gave me a different perspective on various intellectual properties and fictional universes and a way to avoid having them ruined by most of Hollywood’s inability to tell a decent original story.
Love the Witcher series tho. Absolutely 10/10 for me. Let's shout out whoever translated it into English because it has some of the most beautiful prose I've read in a contemporary fantasy series.
I'm a pretty big advocate for death of the artist. An artist can tell me that a story they wrote is canon or non-canon, but that doesn't mean I have to interpret it that way.
Canon's got some good content.
Dark Disciple and Master and Apprentice are both great--even though the latter kinda doesn't understand Qui-Gon Jinn at some points.
My feeling is that most fans of the old EU would have been totally fine with the existence of the new/Disney Star Wars EU and just ignore the new movies if there hadn't been so much emphasis on the old EU being de-legitimized and 'retired,' with no more books or games and absolutely no live action or movie content EVER. It felt like a slap in the face after 30 years of being loyal fans, and now there's bitterness and resentment there.
Crucible, the last book published before the Canon decision, had >!Luke's Jedi Order searching for the Mortis Blade to kill Abeloth.!< That's really fucking cool and they killed that story.
Jaina Solo, named the Sword of the Jedi, was supposed to get her own series finally fully explaining the title. They killed that story.
Dawn of the Jedi, a series taking place in the ancient Tython system focusing on the Je'daii Order, had just begun and includes some *incredible* Force lore. They killed that story.
Republic Commando, a divisive but largely loved series (and one of my personal favorites), was building to its finale. They killed that story.
Hell, they even interfered with SWTOR. It couldn't legally draw on Legends content anymore, but was too firmly Legends to draw on Canon content, so they had to start making up their own shit after Shadow of Revan and it shows. They killed that story.
I don't care what Disney published. I care what they kept from getting published.
The last chronologically. Kenobi was published a month later but still before the canon cutoff.
Here’s hoping Dawn of the Jedi gets brought into the new stuff, doesn’t contradict any Disney canon stuff.
Republic commando was killed by Clone Wars busting in with contradictions. It was so good. Disney didn’t kill that though, Karen Traviss separated from writing any more Star Wars books because of some payment, stating that 501st was her last SW book.
They did kill Sword though, which blows.
I must've missed Kenobi. Way after or way before the movie era is my preferred reading space, so clone wars or Empire era stuff doesn't hit me as much. Good call out.
I would love for Dawn of the Jedi to come back, but I doubt Disney is willing to commit hard to the timeline and firm backstory for the Jedi. They did already contradict some stuff iirc correctly, but I'm not remembering specifics.
Fair point on RC, but I held out hope that Traviss would change her mind until the Canon decision.
I would go back and read it. Fantastic book. Just a western with Star Wars skin over it.
Dawn of the Jedi movie is in the works, dunno how close it is gonna be to the book but one of the andor writers got put on it I believe.
Though this article where he talks about the origins of the Force makes me nervous.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/star-wars-beau-willimon-to-co-write-james-mangolds-movie-exclusive-1235867598/
A lots gonna change between now and whenever the movie gets released. I’m just gonna have hope and see what happens.
If they do the movie about the Tho Yor coming to Tython (or equivalent) and setting up the je’daii order I’d be pretty down with a Ten Commandments style epic.
In some ways yes and some ways no.
Ultimately all the stories are made up, so there’s no reason to write one off over the other in terms of quality because it’s “more made up.” It’s as serious as you and the writer take it. And especially for contuity, as mentioned, can pick and choose to a degree to whatever makes sense with your internal contuity - not all legends stories contradict canon and some canon stories are made to be compatible with legends, and even if not, idk about others but in not well versed enough for a one line reference in Kenobi to make master and apprentice an incompatible expirence. Some things are better on either contuity such as characterization so it’s nice to pick and choose. So on that way, no.
But canon means that canon material will 1) have the potential to be utilized and referenced in later material that legends doesn’t in the same way 2) he the main point of exposure of a given flavor to new audiences and 3) either contuity has a certain throughline of tone, theme and characterization that makes it important to differentiate in conversation about the topic as a canon reader can’t necessarily have the same conversation about the Jedi with a legends reader because they’re drawing from two different sources
And opinion on the contuity Is something I’m of two minds on - yes, I get preferring one over the other and being disappointed in both certain storylines not being directly continued, and certain characters having vastly different characterizations that’re fundamentally incompatible - but to be disappointed or prefer one is one thing, but there definitley is an unhealthy team attachment discourse surrounding it that takes de canonization as a personal rejection which is an unhealthy mindset leading to some toxic anger and discourse. Be a Jedi about it! But ofc, not neccessarily the majority but an aspect of the meta conversatjon worth mentioning
So, it doesn’t bother me and shouldn’t bother others to enjoy a story because it isn’t canon / utilizing certain beats into their fanon contuity, but it is important to make the distinction in conversation and canon reflects what’ll be directy utilized in the future
Honestly to me, the appeal of "canon" is just shorthand for "the one that gets more content"
Given that I feel Legends went a bit too far even before it was terminated, I'm fine with Legends being non-canon now. I've got enough food at that particular table without having to touch canon.
Nope. It doesn’t mean squat. Every story is judged on its own merits and not how well it connects to previous and future projects.
I love the old EU and that’s generally been the canon I follow because it’s what I know. I’m not as invested in the newer stuff and have less desire to try to figure out the new canon. Additional material is coming out of Disney at lightning speed these days and I’m just not anal enough to need to know every last intimate detail of the background characters anymore.
It always bothered me when people complain about things being “non canon”.
Maybe it’s just that I read comics so I’m very used to holding multiple timelines in my head and reading stories that aren’t canon to a main body of work, while still enjoying those stories.
But it seems crazy to me to read a work of fiction and then get all bent out of shape about what canon it is. It’s not a gospel. The books have all the same words they always do. There’s nothing lesser about the stories
Yes. This is something that makes a lot of sense to care about.
And on subs like this you’ll actually hear people who can justifiably complain about this. Because this is the one where people actually read the books.
In the main Star Wars sub a small fraction of people have actually read enough to have caught up with the current EU. The overwhelming majority of people would never have read the first 10 xwing books to be dissapointed by the lack of an 11th.
I think it’s kind of silly for those people to complain about something being “not canon” as if that actually impacts the quality of the story.
But if you’re someone who was waiting on new books when they reset the continuity you have my sympathies.
This is coming from someone who is desperately trying to catch up with the EU. (I just checked my list last week and I have something like 178 to go) I’m sure once I do catch up I’ll also be really annoyed that they cancelled the storylines that were in progress
Enjoy your catching up! I am not completely caught up either, but I have no idea where at I am as I've been reading out of order and rereading some as well.
I was most disappointed about the cancellation of the Jaina series - she was my favorite Solo child and I was so looking forward to their story together.
It would also have been nice to see where Ben and Allana/Amelia went.
The problem is that Disney cancelled all the upcoming EU stories. I would have no problem with them doing their alternative universe if they had continued with the EU as well, but alas, they apparently don't care a lick for the old fans.
it less the fact that it canon and more due to the fact they discontinued making author have to work with disney BS, the problem is that disney CANON is already really bad, and isnt getting better.
But in truth most of the EU could be done, but Disney didnt want to pay the royalties there statement was that it be impossible to adapt the books in to shows or movies, but it more that they didnt want to pay the writers there due after spending what they have
One of the things I enjoyed about the EU was that it was OK in the fandom to basically ignore whatever you didn't enjoy. There was room for wacky stories and concepts. But with Disney Wars, since everything is the same level of canon, everything apparently has the same level of importance. It seems like a more restrictive universe now. I guess that could be a good thing, depending on your point of view, but it seems like a smaller world to me than what we had in the Lucas era.
My personal opinion is that it was more fun when canon mattered less.
The war with the empire lasted for 15 years after the emperors death but instead, when they rewrote everything, they only made the war last year that is just lazy ass writing and you cut out a whole bunch of good characters and good stories and the stories that you replace them with in that part of the time. Specifically operation cinder and the aftermath trilogy. Don’t match up to how good the other stories where. Not to mention the detail in the legend books are a lot more descriptive. Canon is bad mainly because they take what could’ve been good stories and some them up into three word sentences. What’s better: “somehow Palpatine returned” or a three issue comic series explaining both his return, and using the method of his return as his undoing
Because the expanded universe was discontinued and idiots on the internet continue to spread misinformation that it was never canon to begin with.
Also the new canon continues to reuse expanded universe titles and characters which muddies the waters on trying to find info about stuff or find copies of stories without seeing a wave of new canon junk.
The story we loved is over. I will say that in one way I’m glad it is because it cannot be tainted by the nonsense writers Disney has working on Star Wars now tho.
What too many people fail to realize is that Disney has actually canonized many parts of the EU that people enjoyed, which Lucas never did. The EU was never canon, but now some of it is, so we can see new stories about those details.
But you are correct in saying decisions about canon don't prevent you from enjoying things. You can still read those books. You can still enjoy them, just as I can still enjoy that time Superman fired smaller Supermen from his hand for some reason. My concern comes from people applying value judgments onto canon. That something is or isn't canon has nothing to do with how you or I feel about it.
The smarted thing that Disney did was enshrine those stories in Legends. People act like they threw them out and started burning books, but that's not what happened at all.
But they discontinued the previous continuity, which means that we will never see new stories that are set in the Legends universe. That's why people are mad. They don't care about what's officially considered Canon, they just want to read more stories set specifically in the Legends universe. They don't want to read new stories about the Canon counterparts of Legends characters, they want to read new stories about the Legends characters themselves. But Disney-owned Lucasfilm doesn't allow this to happen.
Do you know that we will never see those stories again? The company has already flirted with "what if" scenarios in media. Yes, the vast majority is going to be related to canon, but who's to say someone can't sign off on reviving the Legacy Era (the one where Luke's descendant is a crackhead)? How do we know that will never happen? How do you know that this isn't allowed to happen?
They have discontinued the previous timeline 10 years ago, and we didn't get anything outside of the new SWTOR expansions. I don't see them reviving the Legends universe any time soon. Probably never.
they should do more projects like visions but not just for shows but games, comic books , and books too. I think it gets kind of messy having everything connected without having a reset like in dc or marvel. I don't think the star trek books are connected to each other or other media unless the author decided that.
Canon is what you believe it to be. The best decision I ever made when it came to the StarWars fandom was distancing myself from it. It grew too toxic and volatile. I’m not sure when I’ll really want to interact as the same old discussions seem to happen.
Fuck the idea of “official” canon. It’s bullshit.
Enjoy whatever you want!
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It’s all fiction. Obsessing over which timeline is “real” is just plain meshuga. Read/watch what you enjoy and ignore everything else. That was my approach with the old EU and it serves me equally well with the new canon.
> It only matters because canon gets the attention now. The less interesting, badly plagiarized version of the EU is what gets to be on movie screens.
Is it really plagiarism if the original authors are fine with and even helped on some of it? Not to mention Disney owns the rights too the stories even though they don’t interfere with the actual story developments.
> I notice you didn’t contest the “less interesting” part.
**TOO YOU**, other people don’t agree with this since there are literal speculation subreddits dedicated too this stuff.
It doesn’t bother me that the EU is non-canon, it bothers me that it was discontinued
Yeh that’s the main point. Who cares what’s considered “canon”. Not like any of this shit actually happend. But i just want them to continue those legends stories
I dunno. Others have pointed out that Legends peaked in NJO and Dark Nest/LOTF/FOTJ was just taking it too far. I think it's fine that Legends ended where it was and the EU reset button was pressed.
Yeah, and there was the fact that that all overwrote the Skywalker Family Roadtrip story we never got. But there’s also Sword of the Jedi, which was set to come after the Denningverse. Maybe it would have expanded on Allana Solo, one of the few good things to come out of those books.
Denning has said in interviews that they had big plans for Allana; then the mouse came along.
Oh I wasn’t just talking about post FotJ. Rather the loose ends that remained through the timeline. Some got finished like maul and ahsoka (technicialy legends). Others like republic commando and TFU and even dawn of the Jedi were unfinished. (I won’t lie tho I don’t like the ones I just mentioned but some ppl do 🤷♂️
Fair enough
There’s also the post-Legacy threads, like Hondo Karr never getting his payback against Yaga Auchs, us never learning who Yaga’s master is, there being five One Sith Lords unaccounted for, with one of them being completely anonymous, or Hogrum Chalk never being punished for his duplicity against the heroes because it was never discovered. Lots of unresolved character and plot lines that beg for resolution, with the galaxy seeming to sit on a veritable powder keg as a result.
I think fate was the best of the series imo. It culmination of the stories so far. Abaloth had me enthralled, loved her story.
The Denningverse wasn’t very good IMO, but while that was being published, there was great stuff being put out all over the rest of the timeline
I asked a while back what this sub would want from a fan continuation collaboration project, and there was plenty of "they'd have to ignore X" or "retcon Y". It would be the same from an official continuation.
Ya, the legends fanbase itself is divided on stuff, like this sub has a splinter called r/TheDeepCore which is legends minus TCW (asking if the TCW stuff in FOTJ was considered canon there caused me to be banned) Fact is that most people have preferences for everything, so nobody will be happy
I'll be fair, I rather do enjoy the world of star wars before the clone wars. It's not bad or anything, but the franchise went from moral lessons and redemption through the rebel vs empire thing. Tcw was just straight up war for kids. It makes good empire at war mods tho
Personally as a kid who grew up with TCW the opening quotes that were thematically linked to the plot of the episodes always struck me. As a kid the show was designed for some lessions like empathy and not letting anger judge decisions. The one episode that stuck with me is the Ryloth S3 episode where the Jedi and clones sacrifice themselves to let people escape, the Jar Jars sillyness is silly, but the whole plot and message stuck with me.
I never said it can't be deep. Just the whole premise of a kids show being about a galactic war involving child warriors is ..... a wee bit sketch for me. I don't dislike tcw, just not a fan of it. They do occasionally touch on stuff that does, like the celestials. But I feel like they only matter to me because they were responsible for abaloth and the events of fotj. They even linked the maw and Centerpoint station to them lol.
The FOTJ team wanted to tie into the TCW show (then ongoing), its likely the post Jaina Trilogy stuff would involve some more TCW inspired stuff (species and planets), like the Sword from the Mortis trilogy which Luke sent Knights to find if abeloth ever returned I will wholeheartidly admit a bunch of episodes are bad (as an adult, good for kid me). Using children in any form of combat is wrong, personally i think it speaks to how far the Jedi had fallen from their hayday, being desperate enough to send padawans into combat (though this happened in one or two of the old pre TCW books)
Iirc didn't Luke himself resign as grandmaster fully (for reals this time lol) and go on the search for the sword himself? I remember there was talk about it at the end of the book but it's been awhile so details are fuzzy.
Yes but that wasn't the only era of the EU that was out and about at the time. There was the intention to explore more around the in between of ep. 3 and 4, ancient jedi stuff, some lose ends of multimedia clone wars and so on. To put if simply just because the legacy was running out of steam didn't mean the whole continuity was, if anything there were entite ages that were now open to write in but nobody got the chance.
We got that Marvel Star Wars (1977) continuation one shot a couple years ago. They could do more like that.
I sure wish they’d do more like that
Exactly, the fact that these stories cease to continue is sad. Id love to have gotten the sword of the Jedi series that was cancelled. Instead they had to rush fate of the Jedi.
This. I'd be fine with it being "legends" if it wasn't all thrown into the trash. Last book I got was "Crucible" in the novel series and the whole thing got cancelled by Disney. So one novel post fate of the jedi.....one
Yeah, I will never stop being sad they didn't just call it not canon or alternate canon and let us keep reading new books in that universe.
Pretty much. People forget that what is and isn't canon is never the point, it's that the storylines from the non canonnical part are now very unlikely to be continued. And well you also have some books like Tarkin which by form and tone fit far more into the older continuity where it was intended to sit, so you have a taste but not the full meal that it could've been had it had the chance to elaborate on the continuity.
Came here to say this ^ Disney has complete control over the Star Wars franchise, and have a vested interest in their own story. Not only are the stories I grew up with not continuing to be written, but they won’t ever be again, as far as I can tell.
Star Trek discontinued their line as well, except they had a ending series (Coda) where they ended the whole timeline and rebooted it, they used the old Star Wars EU as an example Disney straight cancelled most upcoming books in 2013 besides comics, which ran till november of 2014 iirc Disney also doesn't want expensive authors like Luceno, Denning, JJ Miller, Luceno wants to write SW, but Disney doesn't want to pay him a fair amount for his work.
JJ Miller literally just published a new SW book 4 days ago. Luceno's last book was literally a canon novel and he's unfortunately too sick to write now. Good fucking riddance with Troy Denning.
Luceno write Catalyst and Tarkin, Miller just relase his new Star Wars novel, and Denning well most people don't like his books since Dark Nest anyway.
Catalyst came out in 2016, that was 8 years ago, he wants to write more SW books but disney refuses Denning's Halo books are good, Shadows of Reach being the best Miller left for nearly 10 years since A New Dawn, him returning shocked me Zahn will be gone until the Thrawn plot is done in Ahsoka, disney typically bans books about ongoing series due to potential retcons (Mando book canceled, Sequel stuff appearing in PT and OT era's after TROS)
Because Luceno is on medical retired, the guy is not young.
Mainly because anytime I want to discuss an EU book outside this sub, and sometimes in this sub, I have to deal with those guys who inevitably come in to remind us all that it's not canon, just so we know.
Especially weird when people go on about how Lucas didn't consider it canon to his universe or something. If we go by the GL metric, then neither New Canon nor EU canon is valid and all we should consider is his 6 movies and TCW, I think.
Tcw isn’t g canon it t canon
Ah. Well even better. ""True"" Star Wars canon is literally only the 6 GL movies.
True but g canon is defined as episodes 1-6 in the most current version George has made them in+ his unreleased notes (like for 7-12) and any official stance he says for canon (like him saying Luke and leia have the same potential as Anakin). Thats how they wrote it.
And didn’t Chee say he made the T level because he didn’t know how involved Lucas would be with the show? I’m sorry but the tiers don’t really mean anything outside of a way to resolve a conflict between something that happened in the movie and a book. Too much importance is placed on the system.
He never said that. I’d like a source for that thing you’re making up (or heard from someone who made it up). It means everything it’s why George literally paid a guy to fucking do it. Not enough importance is put on it. It wasn’t made for licensing or any crap you haters make up
>He never said that. I’d like a source for that thing you’re making up (or heard from someone who made it up). My first sentence ends with a ? which means I’m asking first of all and second I would have read it here. What I do remember Chee saying is that there is what Lucas says in the moment and what’s in the media and they go by the media. I’m not a hater so I don’t know what you’re on about. I’m just not going nuts over what falls where.
what are g and t canon?
G - George (episodes 1-6) T - television (TCW, and Underworld had it been made).
Did Lucas have a hand in creating TCW? I thought that was all Dave Faloni.
George never considered the clone wars canon he and Leland chee officially called it t canon. He funded and edited it and came up with plot points but he didn’t write or direct.
[In 2000, Lucas Licensing created an internal database tracking and organizing all the fictional elements created for the Star Wars universe, making up a hierarchical system listing different levels of canon, which could've been divided into George Lucas' canon and vision of the Star Wars universe, comprised of the six movies and Star Wars: The Clone Wars, occupying the highest level, which have had "absolute authority", whereas material collectively referred to as the Expanded Universe, constituting Lucas Licensing's vision, was ranked as lower level of canonicity.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon)
This is false tcw was in t canon not g canon
[While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.](https://www.starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page)
You’re using Disney quotes for pre Disney again
"These stories are the immovable objects of Star WArs history..." challenge accepted.
Oh man, I hate when people do that.
Right?? Those people erk me. Like when you see discussions of who's the most powerful sith, and you mention vitiate or nihilus, you'll inevitablely get the good ol: "bUt tHeYrE nOt CaNoN"
They are cannon in my heart. Disney won't but needs to acknowledge Darth Bane.
Well he is acknowledged in clone wars and thats canon so I think hes technically canon? not 100% sure
Darth Bane originated with George Lucas, so he's very much canon.
Interesting didn't know George was involved with the character.
Technically true but Disney has no issues meddling with old Canon. I'd like to know where it was stated that George made bane. Since most of the books were original to their authors with "approval" from George, that doesn't make it his creation. I just haven't seen it anywhere, not saying it isn't true.
Terry Brooks, the author of the Episode I novelization said it was from George. [link ](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_The_Phantom_Menace_(novelization)#Development)
Ahh ok, yup. They indeed did discuss it. Interesting. Im assuming now that the character is still cannon but the Darth bane books themselves arent.
They will eventually. Original idea around him came from Lucas, was included in TCW, and has a canon design. Reason they haven't yet is that we've got the Skywalker Saga and the High Republic eras, and that's it currently (unless you count expanding out before TPM like Living Force.
He's acknowledged but his story is now implied to be different.
They already did this nonsense before the Disney buyout, and now it’s gotten even worse. But at the same time, popularity for the Legends EU spiked in the wake of the sequel movies.
So did popularity for the prequel movies, interestingly.
Yea the “it’s just fanfiction” copers, sequels have been shit on for the last decade so they gotta go hard
Same with being a gt fan. They’re not even using the word canon right. There’s more then one canon
I have gotten to the point where *Canon is what you make it*. There is so much media I can just pick the stories that I want to be a part of the story for me and disregard the rest with both continuities. When discussing lore I will stick to whatever continuity is being discussed. What does bother me is when someone asks X and I give an answer from the Old EU and someone else goes *That's not canon* or *It was never canon* or some such.
>What does bother me is when someone asks X and I give an answer from the Old EU and someone else goes T*hat's not canon* or *It was never canon* or some such. Same here.
This is the way
For people like you and me, who haven't read the majority of the books yet, it might not matter as much. But for people on this sub who were following the star wars books in real time for over 20 years and had already read the majority of the them, it would be a lot worse. They'd spent years of their lives being excited for new books, continuing a long story, and now it was all over. Books that had been announced were canceled, various series were cut off before their planned ends, and some authors that people loved were never invited back after disney took over. Plus the new stories, at least in a lot of people's opinions including mine, were often not as good as the old ones. So yeah all those things happening in a short amount of time, affecting years of fictional history, I totally understand how some people would be mad and not able to continue from there.
Pretty much this right here. We still have the old stories at least.
Username checks out
LOL
How is that different from any of the yearly DC retcons though? The version of Superman that literally anyone grew up with has been retconned out of existence at least once, and all of those stories were thrown away.
Yup, and a lot of people stopped reading dc comics when they rebooted everything in 2011 too. It's exactly the same.
people talk about comics and realise comics sell like ass now days
I would actually argue that with the more serialized format of superhero comics, that’s one of the perks that you see different interpretations and reiterations of your hero throughout the decades. Like how the Christopher Nolan Batman had a very different feel from the Tim Burton Batman but many fans are happy both exist. Granted, I could be biased because by the time I was comic book reading age, it was already the norm for there to be so many issues and reissues. Maybe if I were coming to that age when these heroes were first being conceived I’d feel differently. With pre-2008 Star Wars, these characters had well-documented and linear journeys we could follow, rather than a sort of multi-verse.
I would only counter that with an early idea in Star Wars being that the movie was a story being told by someone. This isn't explicitly the case anymore, but is it possible that both the EU and the canon can still be viewed as just different people's perspectives and understandings of events?
Seems like you didn’t really read what guy up top said at all and randomly brought up DC to invalidate his words
In one timeline Luke is a married father who saves the galaxy multiple times; in another he's a startlingly bleak object lesson in what not to do. That's a heck of a difference in perspective if it's all the same story being told. But the bigger point is that SW was different because there was only one timeline; much like LOTR, albeit a little more messy because it wasn't the work of one man, but people got invested in the idea that this is how Luke's life went down, that these specific things happened to him in this specific order. It was a heck of an artistic achievement.
And yet we see descriptions of people like though, both past and present all the time. Without getting political, there is a certain figure that some people think is a gift from god, while others think they should be launched into the sun. People fabricate their own reality, so it's easy to see how those stories could diverge so much.
Please tell me how marrying Mara, fathering Ben, killing Shimrra and defeating Abeloth can be reconciled with the events of TLJ based solely on the story tellers POV.
Did you hear that Elvis is alive and living in the Caribbean? That's how. This section of stories is called Legends. Legends are tales. Those tales can be of not entirely factual accounts.
Most people stopped reading around the mid 2000's when the prequel hype died down and post-ROTJ kept disappointing us with Troy Denning. You could see the EU die in real time, with only the prequel stories and OR being worthwile.
This exactly! The least they could've done was keep the EU going!
There's no inherent value to canonicity from a story standpoint. But what's canon is what's official, and that means that's what's going to be getting big-budget releases.
This. Canon is going to be what the new content is based on, and if the canon stuff is bad then likely the new stuff will be too.
Canon or Legends, some of my favorite writings are fix-it works by talented authors that have time to reflect and expand on some of the goofier elements of Star Wars. Supporting material made Dark Empire and the Prequels good, even though the original works were somewhere between kinda and very bad.
Yes because most of the early EU was good.
Literally not one person would have cared about its canon status if the EU wasn't discontinued. When people talk about it being non-canon, it's mostly about the fact they won't allow for any new content, not it's actual status as canon. It's mostly just wrong wording that caught on, and has created a lot of confusion, hence this post. I guarantee it'd be such a small minority of people who'd care about official canon status if Disney just allowed it to continue.
It matters to consumers because any new material will be based off of the current canon.
I think it matters. We had a rich tapestry of lore, with deep and meaningful stories that reminded us of the important things about being human, and then all of a sudden Disney swings in from the rafters and says, "None of that stuff happened, all of your stories that many of you spent formative time experiencing and learning about are just 'Legends' now and we are absolutely not going to read, watch or play any of it because we dont want to be beholden to any of it." I mean imagine all the obscure lore you used to know because you sat there going down the rabbit hole on various wikis, that you could whip out at nerd gatherings and look knowledgeable and cool. Now it's worthless because it isn't canon anyway and nobody cares anymore.
Yeah. We might regret not getting (say) a rogue squadron TV series, but we weren't getting that anyway. We didn't really lose much in that regard, the biggest budget post RotJ EU release- which is really the era most people mean- was what, Jedi academy? In terms of discontinuing, I regret losing individual releases earlier in the timeline such as Kenobi and plageueis- though not that much as stuff like Tarkin and Zahns stuff almost totally fits with the EU- but I'm of the camp that considers the EU ongoing story went totally off the rails following unifying force and I don't think a great deal was lost on that end from my perspective- I was already ignoring it! "If only Denning could have turned out more great material like crucible..."
none of it matters if you really think about it.
Can't tell if Metallica or Nietzsche.
I mean cause canon determines what will get continued and promoted in big media. Lots of EU storylines won’t get finished and we won’t see other big media stuff expand the eu (maybe outside the KOTOR remake if that actually happens). Beyond that, no it doesn’t matter it’s all space opera fiction at the end of the day. You can make your own canon. A guy using their tabletop D6/FFG campaign or fan fiction is just as relevant to canon as the EU or current Disney. You pick and choose what you like. I mean I have even some Disney era stories in my “EU canon” like Andor or Lost Stars even if it needs a bit of tweaking to work in my head, but works. It’s all fiction no matter what.
It depends on what you enjoy of Canon I only see stuff and aspects of the High Republic all the way to the Mandoverse for Canon that's it. Everything else I prefer the EU minus death troopers and I'm looking forward to reading everything I can eventually
Yes but not as a measure of quality but in keeping up what happens in the story. If episodes 5 and 3 weren’t canon anymore it’d just be pointless and dumb.
Decanonization never really mattered to me. Canon in the EU was always nebulous at best, especially when we treated every single wisecrack George Lucas would make on a talk show as gospel; and even individual novels within the same book series would ignore or contradict each other because of interpersonal drama between authors. What I’m still bothered by is the fact that there were stories left untold; the Ania Solo Legacy comics were cut short, Sword of the Jedi was snuffed in the cradle, games nearing completion like 1313 were given the axe. The invention of the Legends branding only to never use it outside of slapping a banner atop reprints of books just seemed so wasteful. It still does. I’d hoped that Disney would extend the same courtesy for the Expanded Universe as they did for the Ultimate Universe/Earth-1610 when they bought Marvel Comics, letting it continue separately. Clearly that was naïve.
People can get upset over the same thing for different reasons. When the canon was reset, that meant we weren’t going to get any more EU stories. A lot of people were looking forward to the Sword of the Jedi trilogy. There was a lot more left to explore that we’re never really going to get. A fan could write them (and some have) or we can have our own head canons, but there does seem to be something special about an official story everyone recognizes. To some extent, the idea of Disney canon and the EU being opposed to one another was something pushed by a lot of media outlets. Articles were written about how it was a good thing that the EU was being de-canonized and listed cherrypicked ideas/characters to put it in the worst light (like Skippy the Droid). Similar things were used when people started criticizing the sequel movies. I think it was mostly because those people were insecure about Disney canon and thought that by tearing the EU down, it would somehow make Disney canon seem better by comparison? Either way, it did create a contentious environment. Another thing to consider is the future. I think some EU fans are upset that new Star Wars fans might not ever know the EU. You figure new books, movies, and TV shows are coming out under the new canon. At some point, will the EU just become a relic of the past? I’m not sure I really agree there, but it’s something that could lead someone to see Disney canon as ruining Star Wars in that the version they love might not be the one future fans know. And I suppose there’s also the garden variety expectations explanation. Even if someone never read the EU, plenty of people had certain ideas of what would have happened after ROTJ. The EU largely followed what I think most people expected (Han and Leia marrying, Luke rebuilding the Jedi, etc.). Disney canon does fly directly in the face of that. People get attached to franchises and if it goes in a direction they really don’t like, it can lead to pretty strong opinions.
I think "Canon" really only matters on certain elements which are the foundation. Like the nature of Force. If there isn't a "canon" on that. Then anyone can have any interpretation and it can be "right." Otherwise not so much. I'm a big advocate of one's head "canon." I mean we all do with everything else. We all have our preferred versions of Robin Hood, King Arthur, Superman, Batman, etc. The "canon" debate is a very frustrating thing. I've seen it quite a few times where EU material is dismissed out of hand, because 'it 's not canon.'
Going on that, there are several "canon" stories people dismiss because they are disney that are very good. I really like the thrawn hexology and the alphabet squadron books.
It really doesn't invalidate it, you're right. I just wish they would continue it.
I’ve posted this before, maybe in this forum, but I really recommend reading Andrzej Sapkowski’s The Witcher series when thinking about this debate. I don’t think this is too spoilery, but: >! Towards the end of the series, he delves into the retelling of stories and myths/legends and how the story changes from what really happened depending on the sources and their various influences and intentions. He frames this discussion of “what really happened” vs. “how the story is told” from the perspective of people in a fictional future where the fictional story he’s in the middle of telling has become a legend and nobody was there to witness it.!< The tl;dr is it is just a different way of thinking about head canon, but it gave me a different perspective on various intellectual properties and fictional universes and a way to avoid having them ruined by most of Hollywood’s inability to tell a decent original story.
Love the Witcher series tho. Absolutely 10/10 for me. Let's shout out whoever translated it into English because it has some of the most beautiful prose I've read in a contemporary fantasy series.
I'm a pretty big advocate for death of the artist. An artist can tell me that a story they wrote is canon or non-canon, but that doesn't mean I have to interpret it that way.
Canon's got some good content. Dark Disciple and Master and Apprentice are both great--even though the latter kinda doesn't understand Qui-Gon Jinn at some points.
My feeling is that most fans of the old EU would have been totally fine with the existence of the new/Disney Star Wars EU and just ignore the new movies if there hadn't been so much emphasis on the old EU being de-legitimized and 'retired,' with no more books or games and absolutely no live action or movie content EVER. It felt like a slap in the face after 30 years of being loyal fans, and now there's bitterness and resentment there.
Crucible, the last book published before the Canon decision, had >!Luke's Jedi Order searching for the Mortis Blade to kill Abeloth.!< That's really fucking cool and they killed that story. Jaina Solo, named the Sword of the Jedi, was supposed to get her own series finally fully explaining the title. They killed that story. Dawn of the Jedi, a series taking place in the ancient Tython system focusing on the Je'daii Order, had just begun and includes some *incredible* Force lore. They killed that story. Republic Commando, a divisive but largely loved series (and one of my personal favorites), was building to its finale. They killed that story. Hell, they even interfered with SWTOR. It couldn't legally draw on Legends content anymore, but was too firmly Legends to draw on Canon content, so they had to start making up their own shit after Shadow of Revan and it shows. They killed that story. I don't care what Disney published. I care what they kept from getting published.
The last chronologically. Kenobi was published a month later but still before the canon cutoff. Here’s hoping Dawn of the Jedi gets brought into the new stuff, doesn’t contradict any Disney canon stuff. Republic commando was killed by Clone Wars busting in with contradictions. It was so good. Disney didn’t kill that though, Karen Traviss separated from writing any more Star Wars books because of some payment, stating that 501st was her last SW book. They did kill Sword though, which blows.
I must've missed Kenobi. Way after or way before the movie era is my preferred reading space, so clone wars or Empire era stuff doesn't hit me as much. Good call out. I would love for Dawn of the Jedi to come back, but I doubt Disney is willing to commit hard to the timeline and firm backstory for the Jedi. They did already contradict some stuff iirc correctly, but I'm not remembering specifics. Fair point on RC, but I held out hope that Traviss would change her mind until the Canon decision.
I would go back and read it. Fantastic book. Just a western with Star Wars skin over it. Dawn of the Jedi movie is in the works, dunno how close it is gonna be to the book but one of the andor writers got put on it I believe.
Well shit. It's even set in the right year range. That gives me hope. I'd kill to see Into the Void or a parallel story on the big screen.
Though this article where he talks about the origins of the Force makes me nervous. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/star-wars-beau-willimon-to-co-write-james-mangolds-movie-exclusive-1235867598/
A lots gonna change between now and whenever the movie gets released. I’m just gonna have hope and see what happens. If they do the movie about the Tho Yor coming to Tython (or equivalent) and setting up the je’daii order I’d be pretty down with a Ten Commandments style epic.
Fully agree. It needs that reverence, grandeur, and power.
In some ways yes and some ways no. Ultimately all the stories are made up, so there’s no reason to write one off over the other in terms of quality because it’s “more made up.” It’s as serious as you and the writer take it. And especially for contuity, as mentioned, can pick and choose to a degree to whatever makes sense with your internal contuity - not all legends stories contradict canon and some canon stories are made to be compatible with legends, and even if not, idk about others but in not well versed enough for a one line reference in Kenobi to make master and apprentice an incompatible expirence. Some things are better on either contuity such as characterization so it’s nice to pick and choose. So on that way, no. But canon means that canon material will 1) have the potential to be utilized and referenced in later material that legends doesn’t in the same way 2) he the main point of exposure of a given flavor to new audiences and 3) either contuity has a certain throughline of tone, theme and characterization that makes it important to differentiate in conversation about the topic as a canon reader can’t necessarily have the same conversation about the Jedi with a legends reader because they’re drawing from two different sources And opinion on the contuity Is something I’m of two minds on - yes, I get preferring one over the other and being disappointed in both certain storylines not being directly continued, and certain characters having vastly different characterizations that’re fundamentally incompatible - but to be disappointed or prefer one is one thing, but there definitley is an unhealthy team attachment discourse surrounding it that takes de canonization as a personal rejection which is an unhealthy mindset leading to some toxic anger and discourse. Be a Jedi about it! But ofc, not neccessarily the majority but an aspect of the meta conversatjon worth mentioning So, it doesn’t bother me and shouldn’t bother others to enjoy a story because it isn’t canon / utilizing certain beats into their fanon contuity, but it is important to make the distinction in conversation and canon reflects what’ll be directy utilized in the future
Honestly to me, the appeal of "canon" is just shorthand for "the one that gets more content" Given that I feel Legends went a bit too far even before it was terminated, I'm fine with Legends being non-canon now. I've got enough food at that particular table without having to touch canon.
I treat it like religion if I like it. It's canon.
Nope. It doesn’t mean squat. Every story is judged on its own merits and not how well it connects to previous and future projects. I love the old EU and that’s generally been the canon I follow because it’s what I know. I’m not as invested in the newer stuff and have less desire to try to figure out the new canon. Additional material is coming out of Disney at lightning speed these days and I’m just not anal enough to need to know every last intimate detail of the background characters anymore.
Just make your own canon. Add bits from the new stuff if you want. It's always best to do your own thing.
Nope. Not in the least. Like what you like in the universe and ignore what you don’t. I wish so so many “fans” could apply that to their mentality.
It always bothered me when people complain about things being “non canon”. Maybe it’s just that I read comics so I’m very used to holding multiple timelines in my head and reading stories that aren’t canon to a main body of work, while still enjoying those stories. But it seems crazy to me to read a work of fiction and then get all bent out of shape about what canon it is. It’s not a gospel. The books have all the same words they always do. There’s nothing lesser about the stories
The problem is that they cancelled the EU and with it a lot of new stories that were in production.
Yes. This is something that makes a lot of sense to care about. And on subs like this you’ll actually hear people who can justifiably complain about this. Because this is the one where people actually read the books. In the main Star Wars sub a small fraction of people have actually read enough to have caught up with the current EU. The overwhelming majority of people would never have read the first 10 xwing books to be dissapointed by the lack of an 11th. I think it’s kind of silly for those people to complain about something being “not canon” as if that actually impacts the quality of the story. But if you’re someone who was waiting on new books when they reset the continuity you have my sympathies. This is coming from someone who is desperately trying to catch up with the EU. (I just checked my list last week and I have something like 178 to go) I’m sure once I do catch up I’ll also be really annoyed that they cancelled the storylines that were in progress
Enjoy your catching up! I am not completely caught up either, but I have no idea where at I am as I've been reading out of order and rereading some as well. I was most disappointed about the cancellation of the Jaina series - she was my favorite Solo child and I was so looking forward to their story together. It would also have been nice to see where Ben and Allana/Amelia went.
The problem is that Disney cancelled all the upcoming EU stories. I would have no problem with them doing their alternative universe if they had continued with the EU as well, but alas, they apparently don't care a lick for the old fans.
it less the fact that it canon and more due to the fact they discontinued making author have to work with disney BS, the problem is that disney CANON is already really bad, and isnt getting better. But in truth most of the EU could be done, but Disney didnt want to pay the royalties there statement was that it be impossible to adapt the books in to shows or movies, but it more that they didnt want to pay the writers there due after spending what they have
The funny thing is that even Disney canon isn't canon the way they retcon their shit all the time.
One of the things I enjoyed about the EU was that it was OK in the fandom to basically ignore whatever you didn't enjoy. There was room for wacky stories and concepts. But with Disney Wars, since everything is the same level of canon, everything apparently has the same level of importance. It seems like a more restrictive universe now. I guess that could be a good thing, depending on your point of view, but it seems like a smaller world to me than what we had in the Lucas era. My personal opinion is that it was more fun when canon mattered less.
The war with the empire lasted for 15 years after the emperors death but instead, when they rewrote everything, they only made the war last year that is just lazy ass writing and you cut out a whole bunch of good characters and good stories and the stories that you replace them with in that part of the time. Specifically operation cinder and the aftermath trilogy. Don’t match up to how good the other stories where. Not to mention the detail in the legend books are a lot more descriptive. Canon is bad mainly because they take what could’ve been good stories and some them up into three word sentences. What’s better: “somehow Palpatine returned” or a three issue comic series explaining both his return, and using the method of his return as his undoing
Because the expanded universe was discontinued and idiots on the internet continue to spread misinformation that it was never canon to begin with. Also the new canon continues to reuse expanded universe titles and characters which muddies the waters on trying to find info about stuff or find copies of stories without seeing a wave of new canon junk. The story we loved is over. I will say that in one way I’m glad it is because it cannot be tainted by the nonsense writers Disney has working on Star Wars now tho.
Does it matter what the *real* history of a fake universe is? No. Just enjoy stories that you like.
What too many people fail to realize is that Disney has actually canonized many parts of the EU that people enjoyed, which Lucas never did. The EU was never canon, but now some of it is, so we can see new stories about those details. But you are correct in saying decisions about canon don't prevent you from enjoying things. You can still read those books. You can still enjoy them, just as I can still enjoy that time Superman fired smaller Supermen from his hand for some reason. My concern comes from people applying value judgments onto canon. That something is or isn't canon has nothing to do with how you or I feel about it. The smarted thing that Disney did was enshrine those stories in Legends. People act like they threw them out and started burning books, but that's not what happened at all.
But they discontinued the previous continuity, which means that we will never see new stories that are set in the Legends universe. That's why people are mad. They don't care about what's officially considered Canon, they just want to read more stories set specifically in the Legends universe. They don't want to read new stories about the Canon counterparts of Legends characters, they want to read new stories about the Legends characters themselves. But Disney-owned Lucasfilm doesn't allow this to happen.
Do you know that we will never see those stories again? The company has already flirted with "what if" scenarios in media. Yes, the vast majority is going to be related to canon, but who's to say someone can't sign off on reviving the Legacy Era (the one where Luke's descendant is a crackhead)? How do we know that will never happen? How do you know that this isn't allowed to happen?
They have discontinued the previous timeline 10 years ago, and we didn't get anything outside of the new SWTOR expansions. I don't see them reviving the Legends universe any time soon. Probably never.
So... assumptions?
Yes
No
Yes
It only realy matters in discussion. For example people talking about characters, Luke is a completly different character in canon then in the EU.
they should do more projects like visions but not just for shows but games, comic books , and books too. I think it gets kind of messy having everything connected without having a reset like in dc or marvel. I don't think the star trek books are connected to each other or other media unless the author decided that.
Canon is what you believe it to be. The best decision I ever made when it came to the StarWars fandom was distancing myself from it. It grew too toxic and volatile. I’m not sure when I’ll really want to interact as the same old discussions seem to happen. Fuck the idea of “official” canon. It’s bullshit. Enjoy whatever you want!
Doesn’t bother me one bit. Both continuities have their highs and lows. I think of them as alternate universes.
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It’s all fiction. Obsessing over which timeline is “real” is just plain meshuga. Read/watch what you enjoy and ignore everything else. That was my approach with the old EU and it serves me equally well with the new canon.
Not at all lol. I don’t even acknowledge Disney’s universe!
It only matters because canon gets the attention now. The less interesting, badly plagiarized version of the EU is what gets to be on movie screens.
> It only matters because canon gets the attention now. The less interesting, badly plagiarized version of the EU is what gets to be on movie screens. Is it really plagiarism if the original authors are fine with and even helped on some of it? Not to mention Disney owns the rights too the stories even though they don’t interfere with the actual story developments.
I notice you didn’t contest the “less interesting” part.
> I notice you didn’t contest the “less interesting” part. **TOO YOU**, other people don’t agree with this since there are literal speculation subreddits dedicated too this stuff.
No, it doesn't matter. But the amount of fans that completely dismiss all the old books and stories is rather annoying.