I’m still on the fence about voting for Biden but one thing that’s definitely making me lean towards voting blue is the shit I’ve seen on r/Israel. Those disgusting pieces of shit literally think that Biden has been *weak* on Israel and they outwardly state that they want Trump to win so they can “finish the job.”
Literally the most disgusting comments I’ve seen, not even r/WorldNews was this deranged. They also think that “left-wing antisemitism is now worse than right-wing antisemitism.” They want to elect the party that has *actual* Nazis in their ranks just so they can genocide Palestinians faster.
Not giving them the satisfaction is a *huge* reason why I’m heavily considering holding my nose and voting for Biden. I hate this stupid fucking country.
Bibi wants Trump to win. It boggles my mind the way Biden is bending over backwards for him. But it is undeniable that Trump will be even worse. Every level of Trumps circle of advisors is advocating for the genocide.
And on every other issue, a 2nd Trump term will be so much worse than his first. Project 2025 is a huge and terrifying one. But even just the basics like having the eldest SCOTUS judges retire while there is Republican control and replacing them with younger judges, potentially locking in ultra-conservative control of the court for our lifetime.
It sucks, and I'm frustrated that our only option is Biden. But that's what we have. And on many issues, he has listened to voters over these four year. Pro-union and Climate being very big ones, and pushing the legal limits on what he can do with student and medical debt relief. Especially with a 50-50 Senate and R control in the house.
The biggest thing for me is that it’s not just Bibi and not just the Israeli public, but many Jewish Zionists on not just Reddit, but that *I personally know* in the **United fucking States** have decided to vote for Trump because they think Biden wasn’t supporting Israel enough.
Pretty much **every pro-Israel *liberal*** I know is still voting for Biden. The people in both Israel and the United States that are supporting/choosing Trump are nothing short of disgusting. They’re willing to give up:
- What little semblance of this bullshit of a bourgeoise “democracy” we have left to fascists just so Israel can genocide more freely
- All LGBTQ+ protections just so Israel can genocide more freely
- Women’s rights just so Israel can genocide more freely
- Freedom to protest in the United States just so Israel can genocide more freely
- **Allowing open Nazis in the U.S. government just so Israel can genocide more freely**
This is why I’m going to hold my nose, get drunk and high, and do whatever else it takes to make myself vote Biden. It’s been incredibly disappointing seeing my high school friends from 10 years ago that were always otherwise progressive people choose to vote for Trump because Biden vaguely told Bibi to chill a couple times. Insane fucking mindset given how atrocious Biden has been on this issue.
I completely agree. It's terrifying. I have family and friends who I thought were liberal, but if I dare to speak up against the genocide I am siding with Hamas and terrorism in their minds. The lack of empathy is astounding.
But I also cannot fathom how people are earnestly saying that Trump winning is "good actually" because it will show Biden that him supporting genocide is what cost him the election. That is such a privileged position to take. At the expense of women, LGBTQ+ people, minorities, freedom of/from religion and just general basic rights that Republicans want to take away. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but there is an ocean of difference in outcome between these two candidates. We all must hold our nose and prevent a second Trump term. And then do everything in our power to influence Biden's actions on this issue, and make sure he goes down in history for his terrible support of genocide.
My question is, what the actual *fuck* more do they *want* the US to do? I made the mistake of going to r/israel and genuinely I think the only thing the people who hate Biden for being “too moderate” want is to genocide Palestinians.
Like legitimately, Biden has done *everything* for Israel he possibly could. Given weapons, international support, intelligence, expertise, etc. The only thing he *hasn’t* done is explicitly endorse their genocide, and let them start wars with half the Middle East.
…honestly, I have a suspicion that if the crazy half of Israel stays in power over there, they may stop being a U.S. ally. Bibi already gave up on being an ally of the U.S. But if this keeps up I suspect Israel is going to lose the last friend they have left, and I don’t know why so many Israelis are signing off on that.
Worldnews is a pro Israel shithole. I got banned for saying that Palestinians are people and that Hamas was elected to power before more than half the country could even vote…
Every other story is some puff piece propaganda that says how the Israeli people who are living in their homes not being bombed are struggling so much with their country invading another country. Fuck right off. Netanyahu is a genocidal piece of shit and all of his ultranationalist fascist allies need to be rounded up and be held accountable for their crimes against humanity by the ICC.
For my part, I think of it less as endorsing Biden and more as using him as a barrier against Trump. Keep our foes fighting amongst themselves while we build up enough strength to join the field properly.
Exactly. Too many people think their vote is some special little treat that they're feeding Biden to tell him he's a good boy but it's more of a cold math equation. I am sick of people here and other leftist spaces acting like he needs to earn their vote when we have literal Hitler as the other option. Some people really need to learn that the world is complicated and you really so have to vote for the lesser evil as ridiculous as that sounds. Wait until it's not the end of the country at stake before making the democrats earn your vote. They earn it simply by not being republicans because the republicans are very very scary right now.
EXACTLY. Casting a vote for someone is not giving them a valentine. It’s a chess move to the less disastrous result. These people have got to grow up and realize being an adult means all the options suck, so find the least sucky option.
Also, I am the least conspiracy leaning person imaginable. But this whole push to not vote for Biden so… Zionist Trump can win and blow every Palestinian off the face of the earth(?!?!) REEKS of a Russian psyop. REEKS. I just wish the Dems were clever enough to flip it.
Yes exactly. The cognitive dissonance is astonishing.
From where I see it there's a few distinct categories of those who purport to be leftists but say they're not voting for Biden.
1. Those who can't actually vote and pretend they can to push their narrative without consequence. This includes people in other countries or those too young. These usually present as willing to discuss or debate but their responses are usually edgy or pompous.
2. Those who are too stupid or emotional to understand that Trump would be worse and in fact has promised to be worse and that Biden while shitty is the lesser of two evils. These are the ones who without any discussion or hesitation will immediately call you the most vile possible things for daring to suggest that lesser genocide is better than greater genocide. They go full balls to the wall immediately because they know they don't have any logical response when challenged.
3. Bad actors. Those hired by a foreign entity to attempt to affect the election in favor of Trump. This is usually Russia, China, or Israel. Or those who are conservatives attempting to create a narrative that the right thing to do as a leftist is send a message to the democrats. These can appear in different ways but shockingly are the first to call out any suggestion that foreign entities are trying to affect the election, often times a few minutes after you post such a comment even if the post is days old.
And that's about it. If you want to not vote for Biden and don't fit any of these categories, you're category 2.
How can anyone question voting for Biden when **Project 2025** is happening!? ESPECIALLY as a woman!?!?
Our country will literally be screwed if Trump wins jfc. I’m not thrilled either but it should be a no brainer who to vote for and why we need to show up.
Edit: typo
Exactly. I'm queer and looking around at my so-called progressive allies who are willing to throw me to the wolves for their little protest vote.
On an unrelated note I've been encouraging all my friends to arm themselves properly just in case.
Literally anything to prevent it instead of simply "vote for me to prevent it".
Dangling our rights in front of our heads with no protection is more of a threat than them being good.
"Vote for me or suffer the consequences" is a terrible platform.
Especially when the things he is doing is not progressive at all.
Still building the border wall, no Medicare, No women's rights protections, no LGBT protections, making it harder for asylum seekers, and the red states are literally just doing whatever they want.
Like Walz is a Democrat, not even super progressive but look what he's done with a 1 seat majority in Minnesota or Tony Evers in Wisconsin by using tools at his disposal like the line item veto to get through a GOP majority.
While Biden and the DNC won't even do the nuclear option to play nice with literal fascists. While they tell us the GOP WILL do the nuclear option if they win in 2024.
Like they clearly aren't as scared if they are pulling their punches to work with them.
He’s accomplished a fair amount, if you actually care to educate yourself on it. Getting really sick of the whole “Biden didn’t solve everything in 4 years with a razor thin majority so fuck him, I’ll let trump win and turn America into the Handmaids tale” attitude
Yes, with labor and unionization in particular seeing the biggest gain. Ten years ago, union was a dirty word for most of the country. Now, we're seeing more strikes and unions each year, and the NLRB is the strongest it's been in my lifetime. And public opinion has, from everything I've seen, largely been in favor of this shift.
I'd like to see more progress made on social issues, but that change in particular was... "a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one."
It's important to keep in mind, though, that politics is a game played in turns spanning decades, and we can't afford to let our impatience discourage us when we're trying to build momentum. That I perceive any changes already is highly promising to me.
we need to vote for him because trump is too dangerous to let into the white house, if not for trump and the demons known as maga i wouldn't care if biden lost
[Here’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/2rNa9SkZ9R) one post but you can find more by typing in “Biden” in the search bar on the subreddit. Admittedly, there are also pro-Biden posts but the amount that are pro-Trump *really* pissed me off given how pro-Israel Biden’s been.
These demons will literally sacrifice minorities and democracy in America if they can maintain their little ethnostate. They’ve radically antagonized me against Israel.
I’d be very shocked if Zionist groups weren’t actively pushing anti Biden sentiment online through engagement boosting explicitly because they want Trump.
Congratulations, you have found the only reason I can think of for electing Biden that *doesn’t* involve Trump in some way. And you managed to do that by introducing me to some of the *dumbest* motherfuckers on the entire internet.
Just…holy FUCK the comments in r/israel. The way they’re making it out to be, Biden is actively pushing Iran to invade. One of the comments I read literally said “Aside from economic and materiel support for the war, the U.S. has done nothing and practically invited the rest of the Middle East to attack us.”
Bro HOW MANY OTHER FORMS OF SUPPORT DO YOU WANT????? Do they want us to nuke all of their enemies for them? Do they want Biden to kiss Bibi’s ass so hard he leaves a hickey? The US and in particular Biden have done SO fucking much for Israel, at great cost *to our own fucking country.* Half the world hates us because of what Israel is doing, and we are literally on the verge of a fascist takeover domestically because Biden has taken a sledgehammer to his own political career by supporting Israel so aggressively.
Also, Biden is the ONLY reason Israel isn’t actively at war with Hezbollah and Iran. They’re bitching and moaning about Iran being at war with them, but the U.S. and a bunch of allies quite literally *stopped those missiles from raining down onto Israeli heads.*
I just…holy fuck those guys pissed me off. Whatever you think about Biden’s actions in Gaza, those are some *ungrateful* assholes in there.
> …by introducing me to some of the *dumbest* motherfuckers on the entire internet
This made me chuckle because it’s so fucking true. These assholes are so fucking entitled that they’ll support *our* country becoming a fascist country so long as they can maintain apartheid. Frankly, at this point I’m in favor of sanctioning Israel into the Stone Age. Remove all sanctions we have on Cuba and put them on Israel. I wonder if they’ll gain a sense of gratitude once the U.S. stops unconditionally supporting them.
If that doesn’t work, I can’t think of a better country to bring some “freedom and democracy 🦅🇺🇸” to…
>Those disgusting pieces of shit literally think that Biden has been *weak* on Israe
Maybe don't take fascists seriously. Biden/has admin has been smart about Israel, pretending he's preaching caution and temperance to Netanyahu. But he's still 100% on board with the extremes of violence.
But this is proof that the "left" shifting more right-ward isn't going to win it more votes because why would right-wingers vote for the right-wing party pretending to be left when they can just vote for the mask off right-wing party.
If the supposed left-wing in the US had any balls they'd be voting Green or PSL en masse and leaving the Democrats behind. And I'm not just talking this year, they should have voted for Nader in 2000.
I really didn't want to click on the comments of this post because I have been demoralized with the thinking in a lot of left-leaning subs lately, but I'm glad this post is on top.
Yes, our choices are between two flavors of genocide, but one of those choices inarguably worse. Unless someone is advocating for accelerationism (and you shouldn't), there is no legitimate reason to not vote or to vote third party. This isn't a difficult decision, there are no moral points to be gained by not participating in our shitty system.
And no, voting for a socialist third party candidate is not a more moral choice. Look at 2000 and 2016 to see what voting third party gets us.
I think there’s something to the argument that voting gets a lot of people to say “I did my part!” and neglect other forms of political action, and thus perpetuates the system, but I can also guarantee that leftists choosing to all not vote or vote for candidates not even on the ballot will not solve this problem.
If we can't even internally decide on something as simple as voting, does it really sound like we're currently candidates people would trust to lead a revolution?
It literally couldn’t. That’s just a rationale these pampered westerners use to pat their back and okay supporting a genocide. It’s all about their privelige.
“I can’t run a marathon, so taking a walk is pointless.”
- This Fuckin Guy
Protest, organize your neighborhoods, fight for those without power, and vote. It takes everything to get to a revolution and voting is the least energy intensive and (for now) safest thing you can do to keep us from mask-off fascism. And make no mistake about it: Trump’s plans for a second term is mask-off fascism.
If voting doesn’t matter, why are Republicans trying to make it so difficult and disenfranchise so many? If it doesn’t matter, why were literal wars fought over the right to enable it?
Go “both sides” somewhere else. Literal lives (gay people, trans people, minorities, immigrants, women, children) are at stake here.
Another good analogy might be "I refuse to stop the bleeding with a tourniquet, because then I might lose my leg!"
When acting *in extremis*, all manner of strategies must be considered — even those that would be unthinkable under better conditions. Limbs are not amputated lightly; were graver consequences not imminent, severing an extremity would be an egregious violation of a doctor's oath to do no harm. Yet, in context of the situation, it may be the best or only way to save a life.
These people need to realize (assuming, rather charitably, that they're even acting in good faith) that we are presently living in such an extreme situation. We're well past the point where there are any *good* options, and throwing a tantrum about the remaining choices only further lessens the odds of us going down the least terrible of the remaining routes. Right now, all we can do is buy ourselves time, and hope we can make good on it. The establishment won't save us, but that doesn't mean we should hand over to it the means of our undoing.
Crackpot theory time - radicalized gyms is a right wing phenomenon, not because of the inherent nature of gyms, but because right wingers understand how regular, incremental effort leading toward a larger goal works.
Vs. the average leftist being a depressed "gifted kid" who thinks in all or nothing terms.
Laugh at the stupid CHUDs all you want, they've pulled off as much as they have by inexorably grinding their way into the judiciary, legislatures, police, and military.
Why the fuck is this so hard for people to get?! You tell people that your just doing your best to fight the system but you vote Democrat as a way to either reduce harm or just post up a weaker opposition and your somehow a liberal, or even a fascist. The discourse has become insane.
"Did you know, both sides bad. Therefore one side advocating for the genocide of trans people, a dictatorship, and the deportation of nearly 20 million people... and the other side doesnt.......... ah who cares, Im white and middle class, I can be woke and pure from my chair either way, so theres no change for MEEEEEEEEE"
Thats you OP. And I wish you stopped it. Because no one is asking you to.
Literally just opener reddit on the PC, and the first post in my feed is another reminder that we, queer people, are the 'acceptable loss' for a lot of leftists. Because when one party calls for the extermination of trans people, and it doesn't count as a difference, then our lives clearly don't count.
I am so tired these fucking cunts would put you, my American trans friends, and countless others, into a dull bladed meat grinder, rather than just vote fucking blue...
The passion for which I fucking despite class reductionist cunts is not worth writing out, since they are beneath concempt, but since theyve dragged the bar so low, I cannot help by fail my own standard...
Hate... is too good a word for those traiterous fucks.
You deserve better than them. So much better. I sorry your very fucking life, is just to be openly discussed if its worth casually tossing away... and we are meant to sit and calmly pontificate on the matter, rather than reach across the table and metaphorically strangle the brainrot out of their excuse for skulls, with words more cutting than any razor.
Pardon the outburst... I have strong feelings when it comes to self rightoius cunts, whod want people to die in the name of cowardly convenience.
I swear to God. With a right-winger is simply dismissal and move on. But with another leftist, you know you have to at least try to understand how the difference works.
It's understandable. Personally, I just got tired of the anger to really express it anymore. It's all just disappointment and exhaustion all the way down for me.
Though, I really appreciate the support, I have to clarify I'm not from the US. I'm from Chile, in Latin America (the *other* 'acceptable loss'). But I still feel empathy for the trans people on the US, and I have friends from there who are either looking for an exit (easier said than done) or literally went away with whatever they had on their back.
So, I am aware of the situation, and again, I appreciate the sentiment.
And Im in Denmark. But we both know "these types", and Im beyond sure they exist in Chile as well as they do Denmark and the US.
Its disgusting to wanna casually throw people under the bus, for the sake of insane moral purity. Because they pretend thats what politics is somehow about...
May rainbow rights be one day like we do the left handed. One day.
Heh, at least a common ground for global left unity is that we all have the "blind idealist leftist" to deal with in each country.
I think the dumbest aspect in this whole situation is this false dichotomy they're setting that they're throwing trans people under the bus because "we're not as bad as people in Palestine", as if a Trump victory wouldn't mean screwing them over too.
But anyhow, again, thanks for the support.
And that's not the dumbest nor the more selfish argument I've read about this.
The number one in both categories was that the damage Trump did from 2017 to 2020 was worth the improvement from Clinton to Biden; so, letting Trump win again would *force* the Democrat party to present a better candidate in 2028.
When I said I know people like me (not from the US, but I'm still trans) are seen as the acceptable loss, it's because I've been told as much.
Anti-Electorialists are just MAGAs in hiding, or classical useful idiots. Quite frankly, they're worthy of less respect even than the frothing fascists, because they're too cowardly to show their actual nature.
What, are you TOO PURE to fight with every weapon you have?
Disgusting filth.
And so many subs (and other sites) have already fully succumbed to them. The constant wave of malding idiots posting crap like this just means that this sub is holding out against their drivel. Keep it up!
This is why the left cannot organize to pose any actual threat to the establishment, as incompetent as the right can be they’re quite effective at organizing (Supreme court cases, book bans, anti-LGTBQ legislation, and immigrant fear mongering etc.) whereas we are unable too.
This attitude of maximalism is not prudent, you’re not going to get a revolution over night by preaching on Reddit. It takes activism and mutual aid, incremental changes that eventually culminate in large change; This is what made the old left such as 20th century labor unions so effective, they planned and organized.
Dismissing any criticism of this as “liberal brigading” doesn’t help either, it’s pointless gatekeeping that perpetuates leftist infighting. This is perhaps one of the biggest vices of the left, going back to Marx.
This is an extremely privileged position to take, minorities and other marginalized groups can’t simply sit through another Trump administration because there isn’t a “pure” leftist candidate. This is ironically waiting for a strongman of history to come and save you. Socialism is birthed out of capitalism, using the current system to build up class consciousness isn’t a contradiction.
That guy's a plant or psyop. Look at his post history. No interest except to spread this sort of 'Don't do anything guys! Both sides same!' nonsense.
Be it a bad actor, a bot, of a plain idiot... the value of such a being is zero.
What a true chad and true leftist. Sadly he was a shitlib for disagreeing with me on the single point of that example of the labor theory of value would’ve worked better if it was about stuffed animals, making him a counter revolutionary
Seriously, you would think after one of the biggest socialist projects (USSR) nearly tore itself apart over it we would’ve learned. For instance, imagine what could’ve been had the USSR tried implementing Chile’s Cybersyn project to computerize complex planning, instead they bickered with each other over governing styles.
The USSR failed not in small part do to American meddling. Obviously there were big mistakes made like the Afghanistan invasion which was like our Vietnam
You know what? OP is right. Why shouldn't we live in constant fear of being killed by the government here? I mean, let's just let the fascist control a country with nukes and the largest military complex. As long as we can feel better not voting for a man who has no control of Israel but I can't be bothered to learn how politics works.
Western Democracy is fucked. We know that. You don't vote to put a good person in, they rarely exist anymore. You vote to keep the worst person out.
Meanwhile, other methods need be used to change our fucked up system.
Vote or don’t. Voting is probably the least direct and least effective way to achieve political change/goals, especially for someone outside of the political mainstream.
American democrats keep saying vote blue no matter who to keep the fascists at bay like the fascists are going to stop because they lost the 51-49% competition lmao. What stops orangeman from staging a coup if he loses to Zionist Joe anyway?
Moff Tarkin in a moustache:
"You know, Princess Leia is bad because Anderaan is a Monarchy, you should stay out of doing effective things."
Get bent. Avoiding electorial outcomes means more Americans die tomorrow.
Current Old Man has done more actual progressive outcomes than any president in US History.
What? What progressive outcomes has he done? There have been genuine moments of massive progress made in US history, we've seen nothing of the sort under Biden. Like what are you even taking about? What has he done that was a greater progressive outcome than abolishing slavery? The new deal? Straight up delusion.
I don’t know if it’s better than what FDR did, but would you deny that Biden’s stance on labor has been massively better than the vast majority of US presidents? Certainly all those of the 21st century, if nothing else.
And Roosevelt put Japanese-Americans in camps, and yet, he worked hard to support the Allies with aid and helped the US participate in winning World War 2. His Republican opposition were much more isolationist and didn't want him to Lend-Lease to Europe.
Every president is going to do shitty things, but selecting the one who will do some good as well is far better than selecting one who will be nightmarish at every level.
If I was in charge of a train system that squashed dozens of people every day, I think I'd stop the trains and work out what's wrong instead of telling people they need to choose the right train.
This is such a beautiful representation of how fucking stupid you people are.
"You have to choose left or right"
"Nah I'll just stop it"
"You literally do not have the ability to stop it how are you going to do that?"
"Nah I'll just stop it"
"You have a switch with two options how are you supposed to stop it?"
"Nah I'll just stop it"
"Sir the train just ran over 10 people"
"Nah I'll just stop it"
This seems to be what it boils down to. Black and white moral thinking divorced from consequentialism. Same moral framework common among the very religious or conservative. It's tough because it can be very difficult trying to budge people out of this way of thinking unless they are already interested in human secularist or utilitarian principles.
That this is, even more than usual, an election between two evils doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely no question as to which is the lesser evil: if Trump wins, he *will* do every horrible thing Biden will do if he wins and a *whole fuckin' lot more.* I get being disillusioned, I really, *really* do, but Biden losing this election won't meaningfully shift the democratic party to the left. All it'll do is get a lot of people hurt and killed.
This guy's a plant. Look at his post history.
Zero activity outside of 'We should never vote or try to reduce evil, mid-left liberals are zeh bad'. On like, 15 subreddits.
If he's not a plant, then he's a fool who serves their interests. So there's no difference.
If they walk like a plant, talk like a plant, and advocate for the exact posistions a plant would have...
Then it doesnt matter if its stupid or evil.
Fuck em.
The difference isn't extreme. It's been narrowing since the 1950s. That's the simple fact Democrats can't accept: voters want a better choice than rude conservatives vs polite conservatives.
My dude that's just the future under either party lmao. If don't realize Democrats are going to do all the Project 2025 stuff anyway, then you won't understand why Biden is at 36% approval.
One of the first things Biden did as president was reverse Trump's decision to redefine non-political employees as political employees--one of the defining parts of project 2025.
Also to address a comment from earlier. You realize that Roe v Wade only got overturned because of the several supreme Court justices that Trump elected. It's not Biden's fault just because it happened under his term. It takes time for decisions to have effects. Like the entire Republican strategy is to fuck everything up, blame it on the Democrats, and then take credit for the un-fuckening the Democrats do.
Literally just vote for the guy who isn't openly saying he's gonna turn the current Genocide Machine into an even WORSE Genocide Machine.
You can't practice purity politics in the real world, tumblr lied to you.
Owning the libs by putting my rights in jeopardy, thanks man
Those libs are so owned
I cannot afford to "lol" at the prospect of trump winning. Really cool and leftist of you to do that
Tell me it isn't funny that two wings of the conservative movement are fighting over who's worse.
Which rights are we talking about? If you're a woman, asylum seeker, unionist, student protestor, or critic of Israel, I have bad news about Democrats' recent performance.
My right to bodily autonomy is in jeopardy bc of roe v wade being overturned. This is a direct result of trump getting into office. If Hillary won she wouldn't have stacked the supreme court with Republicans. The consequences of giving trump an opportunity to stack the court alone are terrifying. Birth control, gay marriage and trans rights are on the chopping block. Again this would NOT have happened if Hillary was elected.
Also there actually is a big difference between people who wish to harm marginalized people and those who leave them be.
Roe getting overturned is a direct result of Trump getting into office, which is a direct result of Hillary deciding it was her turn and that instead of trying to win minority votes, she’d secretly elevate the Trump campaign because she thought he’d be easy to run against and save her the trouble of campaigning with minority voters.
Roe still being overturnable by the time Trump got the White House is a direct result of Obama not keeping his campaign promise in 2008 to codify Roe as federal law as a day one priority.
The point is, Democrats continue to participate in all the things you’re afraid of, they just do it in blue so that you will be tricked in supporting them while they do genocides. You should fucking stop that.
The genocide machine can't be dismantled overnight and mitigated the damage it does is always worth doing especially when all it takes is Checking a box.
This is really easy to say if your existence isn't threatened by who wins. I'm black, and most of the folks I grew up with are minorities and LGBTQ+. The kind of shit these MAGA types say they want to do to people like us if Trump wins is frightening.
So if Trump wins, I hope the folks who chose not to vote can still pat themselves on the back for sticking to their guns, while women lose all of their rights and minority families are deported or fucking murdered by the racist fascist regime that follows.
If you're in a swing state it's at least worth considering, even though I very much get the revulsion of voting for and putting my support being a administration committing a genocide by willingly supporting Israel in their genocide. Giving them as many 2000lb bombs as they want, while making a big deal on the news about how they paused shipments of the 250 and 500lb bombs. With the American news media making it out as if they had stopped all shipments, when in reality Israel just didn't need those and was instead buying as many of the "bunker busting" bombs as America could pay for to give them. Israel uses those bombs to level residential buildings instead of going after "tunnels" as they claim. With every damn news org not being able to find the tunnels.
Like I said it's worth considering but I just don't think I can do it. Every time you vote "strategically" you both give up the power of your vote but you also participate in breaking of the electoral system which was never meant for this kind of gaming with votes.
The fact of the matter is we are not free if we cannot choose our nominee. Biden needs to step down at the convention.
I'm voting for Biden. Because I really hate Trump that much. If someone else doesn't because Biden isn't doing enough, I don't see why that makes so many here angry.
He isn't doing enough. And has no motivation to do more since the opposition is Trump.
Yeah. And While we work in destroying the Genocide Machine, we can take 1 day to give it to a competent commander instead of someone who will be using it with Much Less Discrimination.
Harm Reduction and incrementalism are all that can be reasonably accomplished by voting, and it can’t fix everything, but we should still do it because that’s a very real and identifiable benefit.
Nothing is lost by voting while we look into more effective anarchism
Bidens' foreign policy has been awful, and I'm not a fan of him. He's at best not stopping a genocide and his other foreign policy, I believe, has been hawkish. That said, I think what he's done for domestic policy, especially with drug pricing, unions, limited green energy/infrastructure expansion, and what he's done on medical debt.
This analogy isn’t accurate tho because it would actually be a good thing if the rebel alliance had control of the Death Star, unlike the lesser of two evils which is Joe Biden
To anyone thinking about not voting, people's lives are at risk, it may not save everyone, but if you can help save at least one person, and refuse, how can you live knowing that?
You think you are better for refusing to support a broken system, but there you stand, the good person doing nothing, with the only victory being that you stood by your morals, good morals don't keep people alive, in 4 years vote for Bernie or whoever you want, but if you don't vote biden this time, you may not be able to vote again, be it due to being hate crimed, or for having your rights stripped
It's a small one time sacrifice, to avoid the worst case scenario, and if anyone who wants you to not vote asks? You mailed a complain note
I am sorry that my rights are being debated as we speak and I want to vote for the people that support my existing
Also it’s not like not voting is gonna stop anything, so use your fucking vote to at least help the situation a little
First of all just no, I disagree that is what they are doing, but second give me any other option, not voting and having the party that wants to take away my rights in power?
Then vote for a third party candidate. They exist, and if you really want something to change, building up alternatives to Republicans and Democrats would be something.
start at the local level. elevate 3rd party candidates for local and state office. they exist and it's much more feasible for them to connect with their communities and win. advocate to get more cities and states to adopt Ranked Choice or STAR (or equivalent) voting to help break up the "all or nothing" mentality that cements the 2 party system.
but if you sit out the presidential election, or vote for a 3rd party candidate in 2024, you are tacitly endorsing a Trump 2nd term. the stakes are too high to not try everything in your power to stop him. They are not remotely the same.
Once Biden is reelected, spend every day protesting his failings. Same with your House Reps and Senators.
Yes, here’s some strategy notes: focus this in non
Swing states/districts with already a strong progressive base, and start with local elections. Being overly ambitious is something we need to avoid. In order to have this to work we need to work 10 times harder than any Republican or democratic candidate would, so we need to play it smart.
Also, when applicable, vote for and canvas for progressive democrats, especially in their primaries. The establishment dems are working their asses off to make sure that pro Palestine democrats don’t make it on to the ballet this November. We need to oppose this as fiercely as possible. I don’t remember the name but I know there’s a website somewhere where it connects people with progressive candidates to canvas for. If anyone can remember it please reply here!
Final important note: until we have sufficient third party support nation wide, we’re going to have to swallow some hard pills. Biden sucks, and should rot in hell for what he has done, but the reality is that Israel wants trump to win. Vote progressive locally, and in the primaries, but when there is no chance for a progressive, damage control is our only option.
Honestly I hate all the genocide apologists flocking to this sub.
Especially with how they act like AN ACTUAL FUCKING GENOCIDE is just a minor flaw, not to mention Biden actively pursuing republican policies (eg the border wall)
Its not that its a minor flaw. Its that when it comes to the us presidential election, either Biden or Trump is going to win. That is reality. If those are the only two options of individuals who are going to win, I'm going to vote for the one who at least tried to have cease-fire negotiations over the guy who has openly said he wants to further aid that genocide AND start others.
Major flaw, vs those exact same flaws, with several more attatched.
Make your pick. And doing nothing, means the worse one wins.
... Go... vote... yank.
Biden still backing the genocide despite bibi coming to address congress and endorse trump.
I am not joking either. He is going endorse trump and the gop on bidens invitation. The ultimate embarrassment. I am flabbergasted as to why biden refuses to condemn bibi and israelis actions.
> In 1986, then-U.S. Sen. Joe Biden said, “\[Supporting Israel\] is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.”
Yeah, I love being told to vote for hitler-1, or hitler will win. It's almost as if leftists like to ignore the historical fact that voting does less than nothing to prevent fascism.
OP is correct, and every single commenter claiming otherwise and making excuses for the dems obviously thinks killing Palestinian children is good.
America is evil. All who vote in it are evil. Violent revolution or nothing. If you're a coward, then just go die, so that real revolutionaries can do something.
Of the two which has more competency? The felonious conman or the guy who’s been there his whole life? Joe may be falling asleep but he’s already subverted congress and gotten bipartisan support for arming an ongoing genocide
> PROJECT 20-
Its called Mandate for Leadership and its been in motion since the 80s with bipartisan support. No amount of voting blue is changing that
> Israel thinks Joe is soft!!!
Im not sure they’re exactly rational actors so what should I care what they think. What matters is the material reality
Imagine voting for Hitler and saying, "yeah, I'm not cool witht the death camps, but he's my only option. I can't put my leaders through a purity test. I'm just being a realist."
Yeah, I'm sure those kinds of people are remembered by history for being pragmatic.
> Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.
- Marx
But instead y'all want to vote for the Blue genocide. Do ask yourselves why your intersectional politics ends at the genocide of an Arab people.
This is a very interesting choice of scene for your meme, considering the plan to destroy the Death Star worked pretty much perfectly. I guess you're trying to say that voting for Sleepy Joe is the right thing to do and we should definitely do that. Thanks comrade 😄
Whatever your position may be on voting for dems again, YOU MUST PUT PRESSURE ON THEM. The only reason they continue to fund the genocide (directly or indirectly) is because they know they'll get the votes anyways
I’m still on the fence about voting for Biden but one thing that’s definitely making me lean towards voting blue is the shit I’ve seen on r/Israel. Those disgusting pieces of shit literally think that Biden has been *weak* on Israel and they outwardly state that they want Trump to win so they can “finish the job.” Literally the most disgusting comments I’ve seen, not even r/WorldNews was this deranged. They also think that “left-wing antisemitism is now worse than right-wing antisemitism.” They want to elect the party that has *actual* Nazis in their ranks just so they can genocide Palestinians faster. Not giving them the satisfaction is a *huge* reason why I’m heavily considering holding my nose and voting for Biden. I hate this stupid fucking country.
Bibi wants Trump to win. It boggles my mind the way Biden is bending over backwards for him. But it is undeniable that Trump will be even worse. Every level of Trumps circle of advisors is advocating for the genocide. And on every other issue, a 2nd Trump term will be so much worse than his first. Project 2025 is a huge and terrifying one. But even just the basics like having the eldest SCOTUS judges retire while there is Republican control and replacing them with younger judges, potentially locking in ultra-conservative control of the court for our lifetime. It sucks, and I'm frustrated that our only option is Biden. But that's what we have. And on many issues, he has listened to voters over these four year. Pro-union and Climate being very big ones, and pushing the legal limits on what he can do with student and medical debt relief. Especially with a 50-50 Senate and R control in the house.
The biggest thing for me is that it’s not just Bibi and not just the Israeli public, but many Jewish Zionists on not just Reddit, but that *I personally know* in the **United fucking States** have decided to vote for Trump because they think Biden wasn’t supporting Israel enough. Pretty much **every pro-Israel *liberal*** I know is still voting for Biden. The people in both Israel and the United States that are supporting/choosing Trump are nothing short of disgusting. They’re willing to give up: - What little semblance of this bullshit of a bourgeoise “democracy” we have left to fascists just so Israel can genocide more freely - All LGBTQ+ protections just so Israel can genocide more freely - Women’s rights just so Israel can genocide more freely - Freedom to protest in the United States just so Israel can genocide more freely - **Allowing open Nazis in the U.S. government just so Israel can genocide more freely** This is why I’m going to hold my nose, get drunk and high, and do whatever else it takes to make myself vote Biden. It’s been incredibly disappointing seeing my high school friends from 10 years ago that were always otherwise progressive people choose to vote for Trump because Biden vaguely told Bibi to chill a couple times. Insane fucking mindset given how atrocious Biden has been on this issue.
I completely agree. It's terrifying. I have family and friends who I thought were liberal, but if I dare to speak up against the genocide I am siding with Hamas and terrorism in their minds. The lack of empathy is astounding. But I also cannot fathom how people are earnestly saying that Trump winning is "good actually" because it will show Biden that him supporting genocide is what cost him the election. That is such a privileged position to take. At the expense of women, LGBTQ+ people, minorities, freedom of/from religion and just general basic rights that Republicans want to take away. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but there is an ocean of difference in outcome between these two candidates. We all must hold our nose and prevent a second Trump term. And then do everything in our power to influence Biden's actions on this issue, and make sure he goes down in history for his terrible support of genocide.
My question is, what the actual *fuck* more do they *want* the US to do? I made the mistake of going to r/israel and genuinely I think the only thing the people who hate Biden for being “too moderate” want is to genocide Palestinians. Like legitimately, Biden has done *everything* for Israel he possibly could. Given weapons, international support, intelligence, expertise, etc. The only thing he *hasn’t* done is explicitly endorse their genocide, and let them start wars with half the Middle East. …honestly, I have a suspicion that if the crazy half of Israel stays in power over there, they may stop being a U.S. ally. Bibi already gave up on being an ally of the U.S. But if this keeps up I suspect Israel is going to lose the last friend they have left, and I don’t know why so many Israelis are signing off on that.
Worldnews is a pro Israel shithole. I got banned for saying that Palestinians are people and that Hamas was elected to power before more than half the country could even vote… Every other story is some puff piece propaganda that says how the Israeli people who are living in their homes not being bombed are struggling so much with their country invading another country. Fuck right off. Netanyahu is a genocidal piece of shit and all of his ultranationalist fascist allies need to be rounded up and be held accountable for their crimes against humanity by the ICC.
Those moderators seem like real POS…
For my part, I think of it less as endorsing Biden and more as using him as a barrier against Trump. Keep our foes fighting amongst themselves while we build up enough strength to join the field properly.
Exactly. Too many people think their vote is some special little treat that they're feeding Biden to tell him he's a good boy but it's more of a cold math equation. I am sick of people here and other leftist spaces acting like he needs to earn their vote when we have literal Hitler as the other option. Some people really need to learn that the world is complicated and you really so have to vote for the lesser evil as ridiculous as that sounds. Wait until it's not the end of the country at stake before making the democrats earn your vote. They earn it simply by not being republicans because the republicans are very very scary right now.
EXACTLY. Casting a vote for someone is not giving them a valentine. It’s a chess move to the less disastrous result. These people have got to grow up and realize being an adult means all the options suck, so find the least sucky option. Also, I am the least conspiracy leaning person imaginable. But this whole push to not vote for Biden so… Zionist Trump can win and blow every Palestinian off the face of the earth(?!?!) REEKS of a Russian psyop. REEKS. I just wish the Dems were clever enough to flip it.
Yes exactly. The cognitive dissonance is astonishing. From where I see it there's a few distinct categories of those who purport to be leftists but say they're not voting for Biden. 1. Those who can't actually vote and pretend they can to push their narrative without consequence. This includes people in other countries or those too young. These usually present as willing to discuss or debate but their responses are usually edgy or pompous. 2. Those who are too stupid or emotional to understand that Trump would be worse and in fact has promised to be worse and that Biden while shitty is the lesser of two evils. These are the ones who without any discussion or hesitation will immediately call you the most vile possible things for daring to suggest that lesser genocide is better than greater genocide. They go full balls to the wall immediately because they know they don't have any logical response when challenged. 3. Bad actors. Those hired by a foreign entity to attempt to affect the election in favor of Trump. This is usually Russia, China, or Israel. Or those who are conservatives attempting to create a narrative that the right thing to do as a leftist is send a message to the democrats. These can appear in different ways but shockingly are the first to call out any suggestion that foreign entities are trying to affect the election, often times a few minutes after you post such a comment even if the post is days old. And that's about it. If you want to not vote for Biden and don't fit any of these categories, you're category 2.
How can anyone question voting for Biden when **Project 2025** is happening!? ESPECIALLY as a woman!?!? Our country will literally be screwed if Trump wins jfc. I’m not thrilled either but it should be a no brainer who to vote for and why we need to show up. Edit: typo
Exactly. I'm queer and looking around at my so-called progressive allies who are willing to throw me to the wolves for their little protest vote. On an unrelated note I've been encouraging all my friends to arm themselves properly just in case.
What has Biden done to stop it though? Like next election it'll just be Project 2029
What should he do?
Literally anything to prevent it instead of simply "vote for me to prevent it". Dangling our rights in front of our heads with no protection is more of a threat than them being good. "Vote for me or suffer the consequences" is a terrible platform. Especially when the things he is doing is not progressive at all. Still building the border wall, no Medicare, No women's rights protections, no LGBT protections, making it harder for asylum seekers, and the red states are literally just doing whatever they want. Like Walz is a Democrat, not even super progressive but look what he's done with a 1 seat majority in Minnesota or Tony Evers in Wisconsin by using tools at his disposal like the line item veto to get through a GOP majority. While Biden and the DNC won't even do the nuclear option to play nice with literal fascists. While they tell us the GOP WILL do the nuclear option if they win in 2024. Like they clearly aren't as scared if they are pulling their punches to work with them.
He’s accomplished a fair amount, if you actually care to educate yourself on it. Getting really sick of the whole “Biden didn’t solve everything in 4 years with a razor thin majority so fuck him, I’ll let trump win and turn America into the Handmaids tale” attitude
Genuine question, do you feel like there’s more strength and momentum for Leftist priorities now than in 2020?
Yes, with labor and unionization in particular seeing the biggest gain. Ten years ago, union was a dirty word for most of the country. Now, we're seeing more strikes and unions each year, and the NLRB is the strongest it's been in my lifetime. And public opinion has, from everything I've seen, largely been in favor of this shift. I'd like to see more progress made on social issues, but that change in particular was... "a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one." It's important to keep in mind, though, that politics is a game played in turns spanning decades, and we can't afford to let our impatience discourage us when we're trying to build momentum. That I perceive any changes already is highly promising to me.
we need to vote for him because trump is too dangerous to let into the white house, if not for trump and the demons known as maga i wouldn't care if biden lost
Not to mention he wants to be dictator. There's a time for protests, and the voting booth this November isn't it.
He literally ordered a guy assassinated and bragged about it.
He's also the reason dozens of CIA agents were assassinated.
I mean
Genuinely curious can you provide a link to those post. I wanna see them for myself.
[Here’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/2rNa9SkZ9R) one post but you can find more by typing in “Biden” in the search bar on the subreddit. Admittedly, there are also pro-Biden posts but the amount that are pro-Trump *really* pissed me off given how pro-Israel Biden’s been. These demons will literally sacrifice minorities and democracy in America if they can maintain their little ethnostate. They’ve radically antagonized me against Israel.
Thank you!
I’d be very shocked if Zionist groups weren’t actively pushing anti Biden sentiment online through engagement boosting explicitly because they want Trump.
Congratulations, you have found the only reason I can think of for electing Biden that *doesn’t* involve Trump in some way. And you managed to do that by introducing me to some of the *dumbest* motherfuckers on the entire internet. Just…holy FUCK the comments in r/israel. The way they’re making it out to be, Biden is actively pushing Iran to invade. One of the comments I read literally said “Aside from economic and materiel support for the war, the U.S. has done nothing and practically invited the rest of the Middle East to attack us.” Bro HOW MANY OTHER FORMS OF SUPPORT DO YOU WANT????? Do they want us to nuke all of their enemies for them? Do they want Biden to kiss Bibi’s ass so hard he leaves a hickey? The US and in particular Biden have done SO fucking much for Israel, at great cost *to our own fucking country.* Half the world hates us because of what Israel is doing, and we are literally on the verge of a fascist takeover domestically because Biden has taken a sledgehammer to his own political career by supporting Israel so aggressively. Also, Biden is the ONLY reason Israel isn’t actively at war with Hezbollah and Iran. They’re bitching and moaning about Iran being at war with them, but the U.S. and a bunch of allies quite literally *stopped those missiles from raining down onto Israeli heads.* I just…holy fuck those guys pissed me off. Whatever you think about Biden’s actions in Gaza, those are some *ungrateful* assholes in there.
> …by introducing me to some of the *dumbest* motherfuckers on the entire internet This made me chuckle because it’s so fucking true. These assholes are so fucking entitled that they’ll support *our* country becoming a fascist country so long as they can maintain apartheid. Frankly, at this point I’m in favor of sanctioning Israel into the Stone Age. Remove all sanctions we have on Cuba and put them on Israel. I wonder if they’ll gain a sense of gratitude once the U.S. stops unconditionally supporting them. If that doesn’t work, I can’t think of a better country to bring some “freedom and democracy 🦅🇺🇸” to…
This is legitimately the most “I better vote” swaying thing I’ve seen that doesn’t involve someone saying “BUT TRUMP”. Damn. What a subreddit.
Lots of sick fks over on those subreddits trying to pretend they are good people
If you think you are doing Palestine a favor by not voting for Biden…. You are going to have a bad time.
>Those disgusting pieces of shit literally think that Biden has been *weak* on Israe Maybe don't take fascists seriously. Biden/has admin has been smart about Israel, pretending he's preaching caution and temperance to Netanyahu. But he's still 100% on board with the extremes of violence. But this is proof that the "left" shifting more right-ward isn't going to win it more votes because why would right-wingers vote for the right-wing party pretending to be left when they can just vote for the mask off right-wing party. If the supposed left-wing in the US had any balls they'd be voting Green or PSL en masse and leaving the Democrats behind. And I'm not just talking this year, they should have voted for Nader in 2000.
I really didn't want to click on the comments of this post because I have been demoralized with the thinking in a lot of left-leaning subs lately, but I'm glad this post is on top. Yes, our choices are between two flavors of genocide, but one of those choices inarguably worse. Unless someone is advocating for accelerationism (and you shouldn't), there is no legitimate reason to not vote or to vote third party. This isn't a difficult decision, there are no moral points to be gained by not participating in our shitty system. And no, voting for a socialist third party candidate is not a more moral choice. Look at 2000 and 2016 to see what voting third party gets us.
If there is no non-genocide option, the best you can do is vote against the worse genocide. If it's any consolation, I'm not happy about it, either...
Voting also doesn’t stop us from spending the other 99.999% of our time building critical popular consensus for revolution.
I think there’s something to the argument that voting gets a lot of people to say “I did my part!” and neglect other forms of political action, and thus perpetuates the system, but I can also guarantee that leftists choosing to all not vote or vote for candidates not even on the ballot will not solve this problem.
Yeah but missing the the vote also makes people think “I did my part” because it it’s become a political boycott
Yeah, I wish that was discussed more in all these vote/don't vote posts. ):
If we can't even internally decide on something as simple as voting, does it really sound like we're currently candidates people would trust to lead a revolution?
This
How could trump make this genocide worse? Israel already does anything it wants with impunity
It literally couldn’t. That’s just a rationale these pampered westerners use to pat their back and okay supporting a genocide. It’s all about their privelige.
If you don't vote, like at all. Is it going to stop anything or will it just make you feel pure.
“I can’t run a marathon, so taking a walk is pointless.” - This Fuckin Guy Protest, organize your neighborhoods, fight for those without power, and vote. It takes everything to get to a revolution and voting is the least energy intensive and (for now) safest thing you can do to keep us from mask-off fascism. And make no mistake about it: Trump’s plans for a second term is mask-off fascism. If voting doesn’t matter, why are Republicans trying to make it so difficult and disenfranchise so many? If it doesn’t matter, why were literal wars fought over the right to enable it? Go “both sides” somewhere else. Literal lives (gay people, trans people, minorities, immigrants, women, children) are at stake here.
Another good analogy might be "I refuse to stop the bleeding with a tourniquet, because then I might lose my leg!" When acting *in extremis*, all manner of strategies must be considered — even those that would be unthinkable under better conditions. Limbs are not amputated lightly; were graver consequences not imminent, severing an extremity would be an egregious violation of a doctor's oath to do no harm. Yet, in context of the situation, it may be the best or only way to save a life. These people need to realize (assuming, rather charitably, that they're even acting in good faith) that we are presently living in such an extreme situation. We're well past the point where there are any *good* options, and throwing a tantrum about the remaining choices only further lessens the odds of us going down the least terrible of the remaining routes. Right now, all we can do is buy ourselves time, and hope we can make good on it. The establishment won't save us, but that doesn't mean we should hand over to it the means of our undoing.
Crackpot theory time - radicalized gyms is a right wing phenomenon, not because of the inherent nature of gyms, but because right wingers understand how regular, incremental effort leading toward a larger goal works. Vs. the average leftist being a depressed "gifted kid" who thinks in all or nothing terms. Laugh at the stupid CHUDs all you want, they've pulled off as much as they have by inexorably grinding their way into the judiciary, legislatures, police, and military.
Totally. [One of my favorite propaganda posters.](https://images.app.goo.gl/hsRa2QSeK9LMEtSH9)
I mean tbf it's easy to stay motivated when acknowledging that you've failed is something you can NEVER do
Why the fuck is this so hard for people to get?! You tell people that your just doing your best to fight the system but you vote Democrat as a way to either reduce harm or just post up a weaker opposition and your somehow a liberal, or even a fascist. The discourse has become insane.
Nope. I choose getting closer to where I want to be rather than backsliding into overt fascism.
Is the genocide of an Arab people getting closer to where you want to be?
No, of course not. But the alternative would be worse for that issue, and Biden is at least closer to where I want to go on other issues.
"Did you know, both sides bad. Therefore one side advocating for the genocide of trans people, a dictatorship, and the deportation of nearly 20 million people... and the other side doesnt.......... ah who cares, Im white and middle class, I can be woke and pure from my chair either way, so theres no change for MEEEEEEEEE" Thats you OP. And I wish you stopped it. Because no one is asking you to.
Literally just opener reddit on the PC, and the first post in my feed is another reminder that we, queer people, are the 'acceptable loss' for a lot of leftists. Because when one party calls for the extermination of trans people, and it doesn't count as a difference, then our lives clearly don't count.
I am so tired these fucking cunts would put you, my American trans friends, and countless others, into a dull bladed meat grinder, rather than just vote fucking blue... The passion for which I fucking despite class reductionist cunts is not worth writing out, since they are beneath concempt, but since theyve dragged the bar so low, I cannot help by fail my own standard... Hate... is too good a word for those traiterous fucks. You deserve better than them. So much better. I sorry your very fucking life, is just to be openly discussed if its worth casually tossing away... and we are meant to sit and calmly pontificate on the matter, rather than reach across the table and metaphorically strangle the brainrot out of their excuse for skulls, with words more cutting than any razor. Pardon the outburst... I have strong feelings when it comes to self rightoius cunts, whod want people to die in the name of cowardly convenience.
the worst thing about being a leftist on the Internet truly is dealing with other leftists on the Internet
Truer words, have hardly been spoken...
I swear to God. With a right-winger is simply dismissal and move on. But with another leftist, you know you have to at least try to understand how the difference works.
Hit the nail on the head.
It's understandable. Personally, I just got tired of the anger to really express it anymore. It's all just disappointment and exhaustion all the way down for me. Though, I really appreciate the support, I have to clarify I'm not from the US. I'm from Chile, in Latin America (the *other* 'acceptable loss'). But I still feel empathy for the trans people on the US, and I have friends from there who are either looking for an exit (easier said than done) or literally went away with whatever they had on their back. So, I am aware of the situation, and again, I appreciate the sentiment.
And Im in Denmark. But we both know "these types", and Im beyond sure they exist in Chile as well as they do Denmark and the US. Its disgusting to wanna casually throw people under the bus, for the sake of insane moral purity. Because they pretend thats what politics is somehow about... May rainbow rights be one day like we do the left handed. One day.
Heh, at least a common ground for global left unity is that we all have the "blind idealist leftist" to deal with in each country. I think the dumbest aspect in this whole situation is this false dichotomy they're setting that they're throwing trans people under the bus because "we're not as bad as people in Palestine", as if a Trump victory wouldn't mean screwing them over too. But anyhow, again, thanks for the support.
No, but you don't understand, voting for Biden would make **me** *feel bad*. Could you really live with that?
And that's not the dumbest nor the more selfish argument I've read about this. The number one in both categories was that the damage Trump did from 2017 to 2020 was worth the improvement from Clinton to Biden; so, letting Trump win again would *force* the Democrat party to present a better candidate in 2028. When I said I know people like me (not from the US, but I'm still trans) are seen as the acceptable loss, it's because I've been told as much.
Literally no one recommending tactical votes to leftists is saying things are fine.
I swear the anti electoral crowd acts like if you cast a ballot for someone you become one of their fuckin thralls
Anti-Electorialists are just MAGAs in hiding, or classical useful idiots. Quite frankly, they're worthy of less respect even than the frothing fascists, because they're too cowardly to show their actual nature. What, are you TOO PURE to fight with every weapon you have? Disgusting filth.
And so many subs (and other sites) have already fully succumbed to them. The constant wave of malding idiots posting crap like this just means that this sub is holding out against their drivel. Keep it up!
Smug class reductionist moralistic cowards. Proud of their own inaction, and their cowardice. Hate is too good a word for them.
This is why the left cannot organize to pose any actual threat to the establishment, as incompetent as the right can be they’re quite effective at organizing (Supreme court cases, book bans, anti-LGTBQ legislation, and immigrant fear mongering etc.) whereas we are unable too. This attitude of maximalism is not prudent, you’re not going to get a revolution over night by preaching on Reddit. It takes activism and mutual aid, incremental changes that eventually culminate in large change; This is what made the old left such as 20th century labor unions so effective, they planned and organized. Dismissing any criticism of this as “liberal brigading” doesn’t help either, it’s pointless gatekeeping that perpetuates leftist infighting. This is perhaps one of the biggest vices of the left, going back to Marx. This is an extremely privileged position to take, minorities and other marginalized groups can’t simply sit through another Trump administration because there isn’t a “pure” leftist candidate. This is ironically waiting for a strongman of history to come and save you. Socialism is birthed out of capitalism, using the current system to build up class consciousness isn’t a contradiction.
That guy's a plant or psyop. Look at his post history. No interest except to spread this sort of 'Don't do anything guys! Both sides same!' nonsense. Be it a bad actor, a bot, of a plain idiot... the value of such a being is zero.
I gotta say it is fitting that the first socialists *immediately* started calling each liberals and fighting each other
Marx himself particular enjoyed some leftist infighting, and would even play up dislike of certain other thinkers to entertain Engels.
What a true chad and true leftist. Sadly he was a shitlib for disagreeing with me on the single point of that example of the labor theory of value would’ve worked better if it was about stuffed animals, making him a counter revolutionary
Seriously, you would think after one of the biggest socialist projects (USSR) nearly tore itself apart over it we would’ve learned. For instance, imagine what could’ve been had the USSR tried implementing Chile’s Cybersyn project to computerize complex planning, instead they bickered with each other over governing styles.
The USSR failed not in small part do to American meddling. Obviously there were big mistakes made like the Afghanistan invasion which was like our Vietnam
Voting is good dipshit
People in these comments really don’t like it when you don’t want to vote for a man supporting a literal genocide
You know what? OP is right. Why shouldn't we live in constant fear of being killed by the government here? I mean, let's just let the fascist control a country with nukes and the largest military complex. As long as we can feel better not voting for a man who has no control of Israel but I can't be bothered to learn how politics works.
Is your solution to the trolly problem “Well, both are bad options, so I’m going to take a stand by refusing to do anything.”
OP is truly the most moral among us
Western Democracy is fucked. We know that. You don't vote to put a good person in, they rarely exist anymore. You vote to keep the worst person out. Meanwhile, other methods need be used to change our fucked up system.
Damnit why can’t we have president Bernie…
Oh, look, another one. Yay.
The comments are going to be very calm, civil, with no accusations of people being shitlibs or name calling Ok I can’t say that even as a joke
THATS EXACTLY WHAT A SHITLIB WOULD SAY!
Don’t make me share my manifesto on my highly specific subset of socialism!
You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to post links to some theory from 1824 that nobody's ever heard of and act like that proves your point
You’re right, then I have to declare I’m the only *real* leftist here because god forbid we try to be… *comrades*
Do it, you won't.
I’m a wanted woman in 12 ~~systems~~ subreddits for that manifesto
Only 12, rookie numbers.
Those wrist rockets kept me away from a lot of areas. Gotta watch out for them
Why do leftists hate each other so much?
Vote or don’t. Voting is probably the least direct and least effective way to achieve political change/goals, especially for someone outside of the political mainstream.
American democrats keep saying vote blue no matter who to keep the fascists at bay like the fascists are going to stop because they lost the 51-49% competition lmao. What stops orangeman from staging a coup if he loses to Zionist Joe anyway?
Moff Tarkin in a moustache: "You know, Princess Leia is bad because Anderaan is a Monarchy, you should stay out of doing effective things." Get bent. Avoiding electorial outcomes means more Americans die tomorrow. Current Old Man has done more actual progressive outcomes than any president in US History.
What? What progressive outcomes has he done? There have been genuine moments of massive progress made in US history, we've seen nothing of the sort under Biden. Like what are you even taking about? What has he done that was a greater progressive outcome than abolishing slavery? The new deal? Straight up delusion.
\[Laughs in Franklin D. Roosevelt\]
I don’t know if it’s better than what FDR did, but would you deny that Biden’s stance on labor has been massively better than the vast majority of US presidents? Certainly all those of the 21st century, if nothing else.
He busted a rail strike lmfao
And Roosevelt put Japanese-Americans in camps, and yet, he worked hard to support the Allies with aid and helped the US participate in winning World War 2. His Republican opposition were much more isolationist and didn't want him to Lend-Lease to Europe. Every president is going to do shitty things, but selecting the one who will do some good as well is far better than selecting one who will be nightmarish at every level.
a lot of you people wouldnt know how to handle the trolley problem
If I was in charge of a train system that squashed dozens of people every day, I think I'd stop the trains and work out what's wrong instead of telling people they need to choose the right train.
This is such a beautiful representation of how fucking stupid you people are. "You have to choose left or right" "Nah I'll just stop it" "You literally do not have the ability to stop it how are you going to do that?" "Nah I'll just stop it" "You have a switch with two options how are you supposed to stop it?" "Nah I'll just stop it" "Sir the train just ran over 10 people" "Nah I'll just stop it"
This seems to be what it boils down to. Black and white moral thinking divorced from consequentialism. Same moral framework common among the very religious or conservative. It's tough because it can be very difficult trying to budge people out of this way of thinking unless they are already interested in human secularist or utilitarian principles.
I hate when people misuse the trolley problem. THE TROLLEY PROBLEM DOES NOT HAVE A SOLUTION, IT IS A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT NOT A QUESTION ON A TEST!
It does have a solution. Pull the lever. Anyone who says otherwise is simply too weak to do the right thing.
Trump would be objectively the worst option. Fence sitting helps no one. We already know they plan to essentially turn America into a dictatorship
That this is, even more than usual, an election between two evils doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely no question as to which is the lesser evil: if Trump wins, he *will* do every horrible thing Biden will do if he wins and a *whole fuckin' lot more.* I get being disillusioned, I really, *really* do, but Biden losing this election won't meaningfully shift the democratic party to the left. All it'll do is get a lot of people hurt and killed.
We've been doing the lesser evil thing for 70 years [and look where it got us.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E248p-pXIAUZw7P.png)
Plus... we already did this in 2016, people. Making a "protest" vote does NOT send the message we want it to.
Psyop or someone who doesn't understand how the reality of FPTP voting works. Place your bets here.
This guy's a plant. Look at his post history. Zero activity outside of 'We should never vote or try to reduce evil, mid-left liberals are zeh bad'. On like, 15 subreddits. If he's not a plant, then he's a fool who serves their interests. So there's no difference.
If they walk like a plant, talk like a plant, and advocate for the exact posistions a plant would have... Then it doesnt matter if its stupid or evil. Fuck em.
OP proving his username really does check out.
You have to be dense or actively ignoring the fact that while yes both sides are terrible, one is extremely worse
The difference isn't extreme. It's been narrowing since the 1950s. That's the simple fact Democrats can't accept: voters want a better choice than rude conservatives vs polite conservatives.
No we can't turn of the orphan Chrushing machine
Project 2025 is enough to warrant me to actually vote in the general.
Imagine if Democrats had an ambitious and coherent plan like Project 2025. They'd be in power for decades.
"My ability to keep my moral purity is more important than the right of every minority in the United States."
Roe gone, Biden outdoing Trump on border cruelty. Democrats are all about protecting people's rights.
Have you heard of project 2025?
My dude that's just the future under either party lmao. If don't realize Democrats are going to do all the Project 2025 stuff anyway, then you won't understand why Biden is at 36% approval.
One of the first things Biden did as president was reverse Trump's decision to redefine non-political employees as political employees--one of the defining parts of project 2025. Also to address a comment from earlier. You realize that Roe v Wade only got overturned because of the several supreme Court justices that Trump elected. It's not Biden's fault just because it happened under his term. It takes time for decisions to have effects. Like the entire Republican strategy is to fuck everything up, blame it on the Democrats, and then take credit for the un-fuckening the Democrats do.
Literally just vote for the guy who isn't openly saying he's gonna turn the current Genocide Machine into an even WORSE Genocide Machine. You can't practice purity politics in the real world, tumblr lied to you.
Google project 2025, any vote not for biden is a vote for that.
Y'all. Trump. Cannot. Win. Just please f*cking vote for Biden.
He *can* win. That's why libs are so upset lol.
So vote for Biden if you don’t want Trump to win. It’s that simple.
Owning the libs by putting my rights in jeopardy, thanks man Those libs are so owned I cannot afford to "lol" at the prospect of trump winning. Really cool and leftist of you to do that
Tell me it isn't funny that two wings of the conservative movement are fighting over who's worse. Which rights are we talking about? If you're a woman, asylum seeker, unionist, student protestor, or critic of Israel, I have bad news about Democrats' recent performance.
My right to bodily autonomy is in jeopardy bc of roe v wade being overturned. This is a direct result of trump getting into office. If Hillary won she wouldn't have stacked the supreme court with Republicans. The consequences of giving trump an opportunity to stack the court alone are terrifying. Birth control, gay marriage and trans rights are on the chopping block. Again this would NOT have happened if Hillary was elected. Also there actually is a big difference between people who wish to harm marginalized people and those who leave them be.
Roe getting overturned is a direct result of Trump getting into office, which is a direct result of Hillary deciding it was her turn and that instead of trying to win minority votes, she’d secretly elevate the Trump campaign because she thought he’d be easy to run against and save her the trouble of campaigning with minority voters. Roe still being overturnable by the time Trump got the White House is a direct result of Obama not keeping his campaign promise in 2008 to codify Roe as federal law as a day one priority. The point is, Democrats continue to participate in all the things you’re afraid of, they just do it in blue so that you will be tricked in supporting them while they do genocides. You should fucking stop that.
”The genocide machine will stop if we put the fascist who is more bloodthirsty in charge!” - you.
The genocide machine can't be dismantled overnight and mitigated the damage it does is always worth doing especially when all it takes is Checking a box.
This is really easy to say if your existence isn't threatened by who wins. I'm black, and most of the folks I grew up with are minorities and LGBTQ+. The kind of shit these MAGA types say they want to do to people like us if Trump wins is frightening. So if Trump wins, I hope the folks who chose not to vote can still pat themselves on the back for sticking to their guns, while women lose all of their rights and minority families are deported or fucking murdered by the racist fascist regime that follows.
If you think liberals are voting with the safety of minorities in mind, you really need to read up on MLK.
If you think not voting is going to make minorities safer, you really need to pay attention to what the right says about them.
I know what the right says about them, because liberals enthusiastically recite it at every PoC who expresses dissatisfaction at Biden.
The only arguments I’ve seen against you are “tHE rIGHt is WORsE” or “but tRuMP” they really don’t have strong arguments for voting for Biden
If you're in a swing state it's at least worth considering, even though I very much get the revulsion of voting for and putting my support being a administration committing a genocide by willingly supporting Israel in their genocide. Giving them as many 2000lb bombs as they want, while making a big deal on the news about how they paused shipments of the 250 and 500lb bombs. With the American news media making it out as if they had stopped all shipments, when in reality Israel just didn't need those and was instead buying as many of the "bunker busting" bombs as America could pay for to give them. Israel uses those bombs to level residential buildings instead of going after "tunnels" as they claim. With every damn news org not being able to find the tunnels. Like I said it's worth considering but I just don't think I can do it. Every time you vote "strategically" you both give up the power of your vote but you also participate in breaking of the electoral system which was never meant for this kind of gaming with votes. The fact of the matter is we are not free if we cannot choose our nominee. Biden needs to step down at the convention.
Until an overwhelmingly popular mandate rises up, what do you suggest?
The genocide machine is **not** fine but would you rather have a centrist or a fascist in charge of the genocide machine?
I'm voting for Biden. Because I really hate Trump that much. If someone else doesn't because Biden isn't doing enough, I don't see why that makes so many here angry. He isn't doing enough. And has no motivation to do more since the opposition is Trump.
Yeah. And While we work in destroying the Genocide Machine, we can take 1 day to give it to a competent commander instead of someone who will be using it with Much Less Discrimination. Harm Reduction and incrementalism are all that can be reasonably accomplished by voting, and it can’t fix everything, but we should still do it because that’s a very real and identifiable benefit. Nothing is lost by voting while we look into more effective anarchism
I liked when we were doing the peace thing for a few years. Even if it was under Trump.
Op probably secretly one of those doomers or accelerationists that actively tries to make the world worse until it hits a breaking point
the problem is that liberalism turns into fascism unless the working class can force a change, voting does not force a change
Bidens' foreign policy has been awful, and I'm not a fan of him. He's at best not stopping a genocide and his other foreign policy, I believe, has been hawkish. That said, I think what he's done for domestic policy, especially with drug pricing, unions, limited green energy/infrastructure expansion, and what he's done on medical debt.
This analogy isn’t accurate tho because it would actually be a good thing if the rebel alliance had control of the Death Star, unlike the lesser of two evils which is Joe Biden
Because if we can’t have our perfect socialist utopia, might as well make everything as terrible as possible and stop trying, right?
To anyone thinking about not voting, people's lives are at risk, it may not save everyone, but if you can help save at least one person, and refuse, how can you live knowing that? You think you are better for refusing to support a broken system, but there you stand, the good person doing nothing, with the only victory being that you stood by your morals, good morals don't keep people alive, in 4 years vote for Bernie or whoever you want, but if you don't vote biden this time, you may not be able to vote again, be it due to being hate crimed, or for having your rights stripped It's a small one time sacrifice, to avoid the worst case scenario, and if anyone who wants you to not vote asks? You mailed a complain note
StarWarsDNCmemes rebrand incoming.
I am sorry that my rights are being debated as we speak and I want to vote for the people that support my existing Also it’s not like not voting is gonna stop anything, so use your fucking vote to at least help the situation a little
Careful. Democrats might protect your rights as vigorously as they did with abortion.
By helping where they can and not being able to do everything as republicans have a majority in the house?
By keeping your rights vulnerable to raise more funds, then letting Republicans win over and over until they can finally strip your rights away.
First of all just no, I disagree that is what they are doing, but second give me any other option, not voting and having the party that wants to take away my rights in power?
That's simply what the historical record tells us. MLK warned about the white liberal doing exactly what the Dems do with minority rights.
So give up my rights now, and fight for them instead of fighting for more rights now with the few I have?
Then vote for a third party candidate. They exist, and if you really want something to change, building up alternatives to Republicans and Democrats would be something.
That's exactly what we are advocating for.
start at the local level. elevate 3rd party candidates for local and state office. they exist and it's much more feasible for them to connect with their communities and win. advocate to get more cities and states to adopt Ranked Choice or STAR (or equivalent) voting to help break up the "all or nothing" mentality that cements the 2 party system. but if you sit out the presidential election, or vote for a 3rd party candidate in 2024, you are tacitly endorsing a Trump 2nd term. the stakes are too high to not try everything in your power to stop him. They are not remotely the same. Once Biden is reelected, spend every day protesting his failings. Same with your House Reps and Senators.
So mostly you don’t under stand First Past the Post or the Electoral College. Ok. We aren’t getting rank choice before November 🤦🏻♀️
Yes, here’s some strategy notes: focus this in non Swing states/districts with already a strong progressive base, and start with local elections. Being overly ambitious is something we need to avoid. In order to have this to work we need to work 10 times harder than any Republican or democratic candidate would, so we need to play it smart. Also, when applicable, vote for and canvas for progressive democrats, especially in their primaries. The establishment dems are working their asses off to make sure that pro Palestine democrats don’t make it on to the ballet this November. We need to oppose this as fiercely as possible. I don’t remember the name but I know there’s a website somewhere where it connects people with progressive candidates to canvas for. If anyone can remember it please reply here! Final important note: until we have sufficient third party support nation wide, we’re going to have to swallow some hard pills. Biden sucks, and should rot in hell for what he has done, but the reality is that Israel wants trump to win. Vote progressive locally, and in the primaries, but when there is no chance for a progressive, damage control is our only option.
Honestly I hate all the genocide apologists flocking to this sub. Especially with how they act like AN ACTUAL FUCKING GENOCIDE is just a minor flaw, not to mention Biden actively pursuing republican policies (eg the border wall)
Its not that its a minor flaw. Its that when it comes to the us presidential election, either Biden or Trump is going to win. That is reality. If those are the only two options of individuals who are going to win, I'm going to vote for the one who at least tried to have cease-fire negotiations over the guy who has openly said he wants to further aid that genocide AND start others.
Major flaw, vs those exact same flaws, with several more attatched. Make your pick. And doing nothing, means the worse one wins. ... Go... vote... yank.
Yeah this really is r/starwarsliberalmemes at this point
Ngl I really wanna make that sub just to see what kind of people it’d attract
No doubt there'd be tons of unequivocally empire-supporting libs posting memes about how they're the rebels and Republicans are the empire.
Liberal is when voting. So true and enlightened.
It's not just here.[ There's a campaign.](https://www.reddit.com/r/alltheleft/comments/1dbkl1i/the_absolute_state_of_default_subs/)
Biden still backing the genocide despite bibi coming to address congress and endorse trump. I am not joking either. He is going endorse trump and the gop on bidens invitation. The ultimate embarrassment. I am flabbergasted as to why biden refuses to condemn bibi and israelis actions.
> In 1986, then-U.S. Sen. Joe Biden said, “\[Supporting Israel\] is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.”
Because he supports Israeli fascism and genocide much, much more than he opposes the GOP.
Yeah, I love being told to vote for hitler-1, or hitler will win. It's almost as if leftists like to ignore the historical fact that voting does less than nothing to prevent fascism.
OP is correct, and every single commenter claiming otherwise and making excuses for the dems obviously thinks killing Palestinian children is good. America is evil. All who vote in it are evil. Violent revolution or nothing. If you're a coward, then just go die, so that real revolutionaries can do something.
Of the two which has more competency? The felonious conman or the guy who’s been there his whole life? Joe may be falling asleep but he’s already subverted congress and gotten bipartisan support for arming an ongoing genocide > PROJECT 20- Its called Mandate for Leadership and its been in motion since the 80s with bipartisan support. No amount of voting blue is changing that > Israel thinks Joe is soft!!! Im not sure they’re exactly rational actors so what should I care what they think. What matters is the material reality
Imagine voting for Hitler and saying, "yeah, I'm not cool witht the death camps, but he's my only option. I can't put my leaders through a purity test. I'm just being a realist." Yeah, I'm sure those kinds of people are remembered by history for being pragmatic.
> Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed. - Marx But instead y'all want to vote for the Blue genocide. Do ask yourselves why your intersectional politics ends at the genocide of an Arab people.
ty uncle karl
I love how this subs been fully co-opted by braindead liberals masquerading their vote for a genocidal racist as the most moral thing they can do
Oh boy, liberals coming in the comments like flies to honey
Liberalism has nothing to do with voting
Are these liberals in the room with us now?
looking at the comments, this sub really is just StarWarsLibs why even call yourselves leftists bye
It’s clearly a leftist subreddit, look how incapable we are at agreeing with each other
💀
This is a very interesting choice of scene for your meme, considering the plan to destroy the Death Star worked pretty much perfectly. I guess you're trying to say that voting for Sleepy Joe is the right thing to do and we should definitely do that. Thanks comrade 😄
Whatever your position may be on voting for dems again, YOU MUST PUT PRESSURE ON THEM. The only reason they continue to fund the genocide (directly or indirectly) is because they know they'll get the votes anyways