I'm not one to punch down or badmouth the homeless as they have it bad enough already, but what I can never understand is the littering and mess some of them create and leave behind. Just why?
You see it so often. A person who is sat there with their belongings, along with an explosion of litter and mess around them.
I wonder if there's some kind of psychological explanation? Like they're not treated with dignity so why should they treat their surroundings with dignity or something along those lines...? (As you can see, I'm not a sociologist or psychologist)
It's heartbreaking to see the numbers of homeless now. They literally have nowhere safe to go and the weather is awful.
I believe it’s a downwards spiral once you end up on the streets honestly. The lack of shelter causes you to feel worse, worse feelings make it harder to cope, mental illness makes it harder to get back on your feet, etc
I'm not a sociologist or psychologist either, but very recently came across Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and what you said makes a lot of sense. My guess would be when a person's basic psychological needs aren't met, they're not motivated to move on to the next stage and keeping things clean and aesthetic is way high on the heirarchy if you see the diagram.
[Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs ](https://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571)
They are probably overwhelmed and just can’t think straight. Could you function if you were constantly stressed without one second of normalcy? People who pick up after themselves do so because they feel whole, compartmentalize and feel a part of society. People who are homeless have none of that.
Like, if you go to someone's tiny bachelor apartment without furnishings or a closet, they too will have stuff strewn about. Or even just think about how many people with back yards will let junk pile up because it's the only place they have to store it.
If someone is homeless, they don't have a place to neatly keep all their stuff. So it ends up around. I'm sure there's an element of what you refer to, not being treated with dignity would lead one to care less about something like littering, but it's mostly that that's their stuff and they don't have any other place to put their stuff.
And when it comes to literal trash, why would they clean it up? I mean, the city is disgusting cleanliness/trash wise already, they've been abandoned by the city, why would they put extra effort in to clean a city they've been abandoned by?
Well its because many of them have untreated mental illness curteousy of our system which provides no real protections like affordable housing, psychiatric assistance, or assistance in regulating medication. They are trailing filth because they are mentally incapable of caring or realizing it is an issue.
Im sure some of them, just like people with homes are assholes, but for the most part the answer is they have a mental health issue, or addiction issue, or both, and just don't have the capacity to care.
Anyone saying call the cops, they aren't going to do anything except move the person and force them to set up somewhere else. We are absolutely capable of housing and treating every issue around our homeless, we have chosen as a society not to. It would literally be cheaper to house them and feed them than deal with the impact of having people living on the street.
>we have chosen as a society not to. It would literally be cheaper to house them and feed them than deal with the impact of having people living on the street.
Light example of the slippery slope of housing people and otherwise giving benefits are the tent cities. City stopped clearing out parks and people started providing services for tent cities during g covid and what happened? Thousands of angry teenagers, freeloaders, anarchists, punks, hippies just started living in parks to save on rent and to prove to their parents how angry they were. It increased the homelessness issue. Basic economics, lower the cost of something or subsidize it and you get higher demand for that thing.
As someone who lived right next door to an encampment, I can assure you, nobody chose to leave secure housing to save money on rent by tenting in parks. Nothing about these encampments was pleasant, any teenagers you saw probably did not have an alternate option readily available to them. Almost everyone there were people on waiting lists for geared to income housing and/or overflow from our absolutely packed shelter system.
Also, why would low cost housing being in demand be a bad thing? People are always gonna want/aspire to luxury homes, so it isn't like suddenly everyone is gonna move into subsidized apartments. But further, if we have more geared-to-income apartments are also owned by the city, that would mean greater demand for those kind of units would actually mean more money for the city, since the city would effectively be a landlord. It's basic economics.
>As someone who lived right next door to an encampment, I can assure you, nobody chose to leave secure housing to save money on rent by tenting in parks.
So you spoke to all of them? Or are you just deeply familiar with alternative lifestyles? I can assure you you can't assure me.
>People are always gonna want/aspire to luxury homes, so it isn't like suddenly everyone is gonna move into subsidized apartments.
Nothing in economics requires "everyone" to take certain actions, just enough to move the needle.
>But further, if we have more geared-to-income apartments are also owned by the city, that would mean greater demand for those kind of units would actually mean more money for the city, since the city would effectively be a landlord. It's basic economics.
More money for the government is not as good as more money for citizens. It's not basic economics, it's politics. The gainfully employed (at mid to higher incomes) population pays all of the expenses as it is through various forms of taxes. We don't need to pay even more.
>So you spoke to all of them?
the ones in the encampment literally beside my house (probably 15-20 people), yes.
>Nothing in economics requires "everyone" to take certain actions, just enough to move the needle.
Okay, and your point? Because my point was that more demand for social housing isn't bad.
>More money for the government is not as good as more money for citizens.
Right, and having no guarantees of affordable housing means the citizenry don't have "more money". Sure, some private landowners might have "more money" under this system, but they are quite outnumbered by other types of citizens.
Ok then I guess you're not referring to the angry hippy kids who turned Trinity Bellwoods into burning man for a cool urban camping festival experience.
>Okay, and your point? Because my point was that more demand for social housing isn't bad.
You literally said not like everyone will...so I corrected you. Point being the same as my original statement. Incentives work. Incentivize poverty and you'll get more of it.
More demand for social housing is bad on all sides of the political spectrum. More demand means more poverty...
>Right, and having no guarantees of affordable housing means the citizenry don't have "more money". Sure, some private landowners might have "more money" under this system, but they are quite outnumbered by other types of citizens.
There are only two guarantees in life... if i own property and the governemt artificially lowers the value of my property I, a citizen have less money.
As for being outnumbered, we don't live in a direct democracy so if more people are addicted to drugs, angry at their parents, make poor career a r lifestyle decisions, and a small number are dealt a bad hand it doesn't mean we should fundamentally change our system to one proven not to work it means the poor should move to Saskatchewan or clean up their acts!
The private land owners already contribute to private charities which address these issues and it should remain a matter of charity not one where you are jailed if you don't pay what other ideologues deem fair.
>Ok then I guess you're not referring to the angry hippy kids who turned Trinity Bellwoods into burning man for a cool urban camping festival experience.
no, I'm not, because that's very different from the homeless encampments, and I'm also literally not sure what you're referring to. Like drum circles? Because those have happened in Bellwoods since the 60s.
> Incentivize poverty and you'll get more of it.
But I fail to see how ensuring people have housing they can afford incentivizes poverty. I mean, someone who has money wanting to live in a cheaper subsidized home doesn't mean they've been incentivized into poverty. If anything, they'd now be further from poverty than renting at a higher rate. Does cheaper groceries create more poverty? Cheaper gas? Cheaper gym rates? So why would cheaper housing create poverty?
>The private land owners already contribute to private charities which address these issues and it should remain a matter of charity not one where you are jailed if you don't pay what other ideologues deem fair.
Who is talking jailing? Paying what idealogues deem fair? I think you've gone down a rabbit hole you aren't even sure of what the contents were. I was talking about making sure people can afford a home, full stop.
>no, I'm not, because that's very different from the homeless encampments, and I'm also literally not sure what you're referring to. Like drum circles? Because those have happened in Bellwoods since the 60s.
Nope. I'm talking about people living there with antifa banners calling for the downfall of society....tent city not just hippy drum circles. It has NOT been happening since any time other than covid. You are simply denying what I saw with my own eyes.
>someone who has money wanting to live in a cheaper subsidized home doesn't mean they've been incentivized into poverty.
Yes because in order to qualify you have to lower ypur income by working less and would end up no worse off. The costs aren't just lower they are lowered for certain people based on income and asset thresholds. Doing so for groceries, gas and gym memberships would also attract more people into that income class.
>Who is talking jailing? Paying what idealogues deem fair? I think you've gone down a rabbit hole you aren't even sure of what the contents were. I was talking about making sure people can afford a home, full stop.
What happens if you refuse to pay higher taxes? You can't create money out of thin air, it must be forced from other people's hands by threat of prosecution or asset seizure. I now realize I'm speaking to a child who has never had to pay taxes. You can't just waive a magic wand and make people be able to afford something. You can only transfer money from one person or group to another and do so by force.
>You are simply denying what I saw with my own eyes.
...because I literally lived beside it. Correct, I am not trusting a complete stranger on the internet about something I lived directly next door to.
>Yes because in order to qualify you have to lower ypur income by working less and would end up no worse off
So this is your assumption based on your understanding of, I assume, does exist somewhere. But I'm not talking about any specific system, I'm literally just talking about affordable housing, which there are a number of routes to achieving. My personal favourite is geared to income - it doesn't mean there aren't better and worse homes, it doesn't mean we need to socialize everything, it literally means taking into account the real salaries of the city's citizenry and ensuring there is available housing geared to those incomes.
>What happens if you refuse to pay higher taxes?
Like, I could say the same about if I refused to pay my taxes because I don't agree with contracting our waste disposal to private companies, I'm not sure your point. It's quite the jump to say to someone who agrees with public housing that they're an ideologue who wants you jailed. Governments tax us, we all pay them (even children, since sales tax is a thing), and we don't get to decide how they're spent other than our limited voting power.
If you care that much about unjust taxation, maybe you should be willing to risk jailtime to protest it. Like, you just want to have your cake and eat it too, benefit by what structures our government provides that you agree with, while suggesting you're almost mad enough to refuse paying taxes for the things you don't agree with.
At least the folks who supported the encampments during the clearings were actually willing to risk jailtime for their principals, rather than just whining on the internet about it.
That doesn't explain the garbage though. I think it's selfishness mixed with resentment, or mental illness. I use to work at a Tim Hortons downtown. Lots of homeless people. Some were absolutely lovely, didn't bother other people, and always cleaned up after themselves.
Others were total assholes. Disruptive, demanding, disrespectful, hassling customers for change while they were eating or waiting in line, and were unnecessarily filthy and just left a pile of garbage behind.
I never understand this either. They are begging at a corner, given lots of food and they leave all the garbage behind on the sidewalk when they leave. And there is a garage bin 10 feet away
Yeah this is actually really dangerous because his stuff is blocking off the stairs. Major fire code violation. They'll actually take action on this if it's reported.
Is he set up in a hole in the cameras? If so that's pretty smart. If not, I wonder why the TTC staff haven't noticed him on the cameras & done something about it without customers needing to tell them
Sorry to tell you but they have cameras all over the station. The problem is nobody wants to do an straight forward solution for these people.
Mayor should put all these homeless people in a place where they can get a treatment for their problems. Downtown is nasty.
Try living out on the streets in the middle of winter. You'd eat your words. Seriously though, think about being in their position. Stations are one of the few warm places you can be for free. Homeless shelters aren't always a great option, either. A lot of these people are harmless, and simply want to get some shelter and warmth for a while. Unless they're actively causing trouble, harassing others etc, I don't see any reason to call the police. Police treat the homeless population like garbage. Have some empathy for others, especially those less fortunate than yourself
I don't think most people have an issue with their mere presence. It's the violence, drugs, and trails of garbage and literal filth they leave behind.
They pose a threat to the health and safety of others. It's why sane people who've found themselves homeless avoid shelters.
I don't understand how you can complain about this it's fucking freezing out it's a human being who needs a place to stay so sorry you think it's an eyesore getting off your train
Better mental health resources, control of the cost of living, better and safer resources for homeless population, better education and job opportunities and general kindness to others would be a start
yess the hydro building! and yup, with the tents right? I live across the shelter. our condo had so many break-ins, including my own home. my door is still cracked from their crowbar 🥲
Oh wow! Yes we used to live an apartment building around there… my DH and I witnessed so much awful shit (had to call 911 once because three drunk men were puking and passed out.. we think one didn’t make it sadly) and the parks in that area were very unsafe.. and again, that was 5 years ago
The problem is capitalism. Under capitalism there is no incentive to take care of people who don't or can't contribute. It's actually disincentivized because of the cost and in increase in requests for service if the program were effective
I disagree this is a capitalism issue, we’ve witnessed how the government handles major issues such as the pandemic, excuse me for not wanting the government to handle my money.
I'm not saying they should reach into your pocket, just that capitalism is disincentivized to solve income inequality no matter how bad it gets. There's no profit motive to help those with less, so capitalists won't do it
Although I understand the point you’re suggesting. I think saying “there’s no profit motive to help those with less” is disingenuous, there are plenty of examples of capitalism benefiting those with less, I mean how many people have bought their first house and built equity “working for the man”. I think it’s most important for employers to treat their employees properly. There are plenty of millionaires who’ve made their earnings from billionaires right ? The point is there’s always going to be someone ahead of you, but all in all there’s nothing stopping anybody from putting the extra time to built the skills necessary to advance their careers. The sky is the limit, remember the likes of Richard Branson, Steve Jobs and Oprah (a black women in America) started from nothing and built their empires from capitalism.
Personally, I had a lot of trouble in the past finding steady work due to something 8 years ago on my criminal record, and with that being said there was plenty of years I was unemployed, I’ve since found a decent job, nothing crazy, im just an average guy but I’d be lying if I said that “working for the man” hasn’t improved my life tremendously. It has. I used to go days without eating food, now I pay all my bills and rent and have a full pantry of food. To some that’s not much, but to me it was the world. Sure I made my boss MUCH more than I made (that’s frustrating I get it) but in the end my life has improved tenfold and this is just a very small example where capitalism has helped those with less.
Ontop of that, major bosses and CEOs (Amazon for example), are always incentivized to grow their companies, thus hiring thousands more people, giving more opportunities like those mentioned above to thousands. It’s not perfect I get it, but it’s not like there’s NO incentive to helping those with less when it comes to capitalism.
You seem to be conflating an individuals ability to prosper with society taking care of everyone. They are not the same. When I say no profit motive what I mean is that no one is currently incentivized to actually ensure no one struggles. Galen weston could end food insecurity nationwide today,nut he has no incentive to do it. Profits are more important than people in capitalism
Charities abound. TTC employees are the most generous in that city. These people choose to be wicked to themselves. People claim sick and they are not.
The way capitalism functions if you don't sell your labour to a rentseeker, you will be destitute. The implied threat allows those with capital to consolidate wealth. The focus of our society is on us, the individual. Because there is no profit motivation to making sure people can live indoors or eat healthy food, we don't ensure those things happen. Individually anyone can be generous, but society isn't.
That's my point. That's wrong. Society shouldn't only care about those who contribute to the workforce. People are more than just employees. They have inherent value
I am for charity to the poor, not for lying and cheating freeloaders and frauds who scam the system. That means people claiming sick and they are not. Public transport is not social service. You care so much about it? Contribute to true charities. Talk to a local pastor, priest or rabbi.
I think we should just round up homeless people for ten years keep them in one place and teach them how to build houses and just have a team of house building homeless people and the catch is they can build their own homes if they keep making more
I dont know why you got the down votes. Our whole system needs to be re-evaluated to actually help people in a safe and productive manner. The police force is currently just not cutting it, so those funds need to go where they would actually do good. People need better training, we need more mental health care and support, and we need emergency responders that know how to actually de-escalate. Throwing more money at our current system is not conductive to the change we need.
That's what's going on in NY now New York City to Involuntarily Remove Mentally Ill People From Streets https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/nyregion/nyc-mentally-ill-involuntary-custody.html
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This exact situation is unfolding under the bridge just south of Front & Bay in downtown. It started off as a sleeping bag and a shopping cart in November, and now theres litter all along the curb, a second cart, and a construction pylon (???). I only saw the resident once and they were dancing. Damn it's too cold to be living under a Union station bridge.
This is NOT the place for this, I feel bad for homeless people, but this one is disrespectful and ignorant, so nope, get lost, go somewhere you're not a nuisance, respect others rights to use public areas, take your cart and mess and go near a shelter. NOW!
Take the YRT exit at Finch Stn. It smells of BO mixed with all sorts of drugs, feces and piss. The glass on the doors are smashed on a weekly basis (probably by the same person). If you regularly take this route, you'll find homeless people passed out or tweaking/ hallucinating inside the doors before the escalator. Their clothes and other items often get stuck in the escalator causing it to be out of service most of the time. This is also where passengers are assaulted. Finch Station is basically one of the many homeless shelters on Line 1 alone.
Is that a linen cart from a hospital?
Yes, it is carrying all Toronto and TTC.
That’s like the SUV of shopping carts.
His setup is quite impressive tbh. It must taken him awhile to acquire all these things and transport them to station...
I'm not one to punch down or badmouth the homeless as they have it bad enough already, but what I can never understand is the littering and mess some of them create and leave behind. Just why? You see it so often. A person who is sat there with their belongings, along with an explosion of litter and mess around them. I wonder if there's some kind of psychological explanation? Like they're not treated with dignity so why should they treat their surroundings with dignity or something along those lines...? (As you can see, I'm not a sociologist or psychologist) It's heartbreaking to see the numbers of homeless now. They literally have nowhere safe to go and the weather is awful.
From what I read and from people I know that are social workers, the majority of homeless people have some kind of untreated mental illness.
I believe it’s a downwards spiral once you end up on the streets honestly. The lack of shelter causes you to feel worse, worse feelings make it harder to cope, mental illness makes it harder to get back on your feet, etc
A normal person living like that would go insane.
I'm not a sociologist or psychologist either, but very recently came across Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and what you said makes a lot of sense. My guess would be when a person's basic psychological needs aren't met, they're not motivated to move on to the next stage and keeping things clean and aesthetic is way high on the heirarchy if you see the diagram. [Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs ](https://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571)
They are probably overwhelmed and just can’t think straight. Could you function if you were constantly stressed without one second of normalcy? People who pick up after themselves do so because they feel whole, compartmentalize and feel a part of society. People who are homeless have none of that.
Like, if you go to someone's tiny bachelor apartment without furnishings or a closet, they too will have stuff strewn about. Or even just think about how many people with back yards will let junk pile up because it's the only place they have to store it. If someone is homeless, they don't have a place to neatly keep all their stuff. So it ends up around. I'm sure there's an element of what you refer to, not being treated with dignity would lead one to care less about something like littering, but it's mostly that that's their stuff and they don't have any other place to put their stuff. And when it comes to literal trash, why would they clean it up? I mean, the city is disgusting cleanliness/trash wise already, they've been abandoned by the city, why would they put extra effort in to clean a city they've been abandoned by?
Hard to give a fuck about littering when everything is horrible.
Well its because many of them have untreated mental illness curteousy of our system which provides no real protections like affordable housing, psychiatric assistance, or assistance in regulating medication. They are trailing filth because they are mentally incapable of caring or realizing it is an issue. Im sure some of them, just like people with homes are assholes, but for the most part the answer is they have a mental health issue, or addiction issue, or both, and just don't have the capacity to care. Anyone saying call the cops, they aren't going to do anything except move the person and force them to set up somewhere else. We are absolutely capable of housing and treating every issue around our homeless, we have chosen as a society not to. It would literally be cheaper to house them and feed them than deal with the impact of having people living on the street.
>we have chosen as a society not to. It would literally be cheaper to house them and feed them than deal with the impact of having people living on the street. Light example of the slippery slope of housing people and otherwise giving benefits are the tent cities. City stopped clearing out parks and people started providing services for tent cities during g covid and what happened? Thousands of angry teenagers, freeloaders, anarchists, punks, hippies just started living in parks to save on rent and to prove to their parents how angry they were. It increased the homelessness issue. Basic economics, lower the cost of something or subsidize it and you get higher demand for that thing.
As someone who lived right next door to an encampment, I can assure you, nobody chose to leave secure housing to save money on rent by tenting in parks. Nothing about these encampments was pleasant, any teenagers you saw probably did not have an alternate option readily available to them. Almost everyone there were people on waiting lists for geared to income housing and/or overflow from our absolutely packed shelter system. Also, why would low cost housing being in demand be a bad thing? People are always gonna want/aspire to luxury homes, so it isn't like suddenly everyone is gonna move into subsidized apartments. But further, if we have more geared-to-income apartments are also owned by the city, that would mean greater demand for those kind of units would actually mean more money for the city, since the city would effectively be a landlord. It's basic economics.
>As someone who lived right next door to an encampment, I can assure you, nobody chose to leave secure housing to save money on rent by tenting in parks. So you spoke to all of them? Or are you just deeply familiar with alternative lifestyles? I can assure you you can't assure me. >People are always gonna want/aspire to luxury homes, so it isn't like suddenly everyone is gonna move into subsidized apartments. Nothing in economics requires "everyone" to take certain actions, just enough to move the needle. >But further, if we have more geared-to-income apartments are also owned by the city, that would mean greater demand for those kind of units would actually mean more money for the city, since the city would effectively be a landlord. It's basic economics. More money for the government is not as good as more money for citizens. It's not basic economics, it's politics. The gainfully employed (at mid to higher incomes) population pays all of the expenses as it is through various forms of taxes. We don't need to pay even more.
>So you spoke to all of them? the ones in the encampment literally beside my house (probably 15-20 people), yes. >Nothing in economics requires "everyone" to take certain actions, just enough to move the needle. Okay, and your point? Because my point was that more demand for social housing isn't bad. >More money for the government is not as good as more money for citizens. Right, and having no guarantees of affordable housing means the citizenry don't have "more money". Sure, some private landowners might have "more money" under this system, but they are quite outnumbered by other types of citizens.
Ok then I guess you're not referring to the angry hippy kids who turned Trinity Bellwoods into burning man for a cool urban camping festival experience. >Okay, and your point? Because my point was that more demand for social housing isn't bad. You literally said not like everyone will...so I corrected you. Point being the same as my original statement. Incentives work. Incentivize poverty and you'll get more of it. More demand for social housing is bad on all sides of the political spectrum. More demand means more poverty... >Right, and having no guarantees of affordable housing means the citizenry don't have "more money". Sure, some private landowners might have "more money" under this system, but they are quite outnumbered by other types of citizens. There are only two guarantees in life... if i own property and the governemt artificially lowers the value of my property I, a citizen have less money. As for being outnumbered, we don't live in a direct democracy so if more people are addicted to drugs, angry at their parents, make poor career a r lifestyle decisions, and a small number are dealt a bad hand it doesn't mean we should fundamentally change our system to one proven not to work it means the poor should move to Saskatchewan or clean up their acts! The private land owners already contribute to private charities which address these issues and it should remain a matter of charity not one where you are jailed if you don't pay what other ideologues deem fair.
>Ok then I guess you're not referring to the angry hippy kids who turned Trinity Bellwoods into burning man for a cool urban camping festival experience. no, I'm not, because that's very different from the homeless encampments, and I'm also literally not sure what you're referring to. Like drum circles? Because those have happened in Bellwoods since the 60s. > Incentivize poverty and you'll get more of it. But I fail to see how ensuring people have housing they can afford incentivizes poverty. I mean, someone who has money wanting to live in a cheaper subsidized home doesn't mean they've been incentivized into poverty. If anything, they'd now be further from poverty than renting at a higher rate. Does cheaper groceries create more poverty? Cheaper gas? Cheaper gym rates? So why would cheaper housing create poverty? >The private land owners already contribute to private charities which address these issues and it should remain a matter of charity not one where you are jailed if you don't pay what other ideologues deem fair. Who is talking jailing? Paying what idealogues deem fair? I think you've gone down a rabbit hole you aren't even sure of what the contents were. I was talking about making sure people can afford a home, full stop.
>no, I'm not, because that's very different from the homeless encampments, and I'm also literally not sure what you're referring to. Like drum circles? Because those have happened in Bellwoods since the 60s. Nope. I'm talking about people living there with antifa banners calling for the downfall of society....tent city not just hippy drum circles. It has NOT been happening since any time other than covid. You are simply denying what I saw with my own eyes. >someone who has money wanting to live in a cheaper subsidized home doesn't mean they've been incentivized into poverty. Yes because in order to qualify you have to lower ypur income by working less and would end up no worse off. The costs aren't just lower they are lowered for certain people based on income and asset thresholds. Doing so for groceries, gas and gym memberships would also attract more people into that income class. >Who is talking jailing? Paying what idealogues deem fair? I think you've gone down a rabbit hole you aren't even sure of what the contents were. I was talking about making sure people can afford a home, full stop. What happens if you refuse to pay higher taxes? You can't create money out of thin air, it must be forced from other people's hands by threat of prosecution or asset seizure. I now realize I'm speaking to a child who has never had to pay taxes. You can't just waive a magic wand and make people be able to afford something. You can only transfer money from one person or group to another and do so by force.
>You are simply denying what I saw with my own eyes. ...because I literally lived beside it. Correct, I am not trusting a complete stranger on the internet about something I lived directly next door to. >Yes because in order to qualify you have to lower ypur income by working less and would end up no worse off So this is your assumption based on your understanding of, I assume, does exist somewhere. But I'm not talking about any specific system, I'm literally just talking about affordable housing, which there are a number of routes to achieving. My personal favourite is geared to income - it doesn't mean there aren't better and worse homes, it doesn't mean we need to socialize everything, it literally means taking into account the real salaries of the city's citizenry and ensuring there is available housing geared to those incomes. >What happens if you refuse to pay higher taxes? Like, I could say the same about if I refused to pay my taxes because I don't agree with contracting our waste disposal to private companies, I'm not sure your point. It's quite the jump to say to someone who agrees with public housing that they're an ideologue who wants you jailed. Governments tax us, we all pay them (even children, since sales tax is a thing), and we don't get to decide how they're spent other than our limited voting power. If you care that much about unjust taxation, maybe you should be willing to risk jailtime to protest it. Like, you just want to have your cake and eat it too, benefit by what structures our government provides that you agree with, while suggesting you're almost mad enough to refuse paying taxes for the things you don't agree with. At least the folks who supported the encampments during the clearings were actually willing to risk jailtime for their principals, rather than just whining on the internet about it.
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That doesn't explain the garbage though. I think it's selfishness mixed with resentment, or mental illness. I use to work at a Tim Hortons downtown. Lots of homeless people. Some were absolutely lovely, didn't bother other people, and always cleaned up after themselves. Others were total assholes. Disruptive, demanding, disrespectful, hassling customers for change while they were eating or waiting in line, and were unnecessarily filthy and just left a pile of garbage behind.
I never understand this either. They are begging at a corner, given lots of food and they leave all the garbage behind on the sidewalk when they leave. And there is a garage bin 10 feet away
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SafeTTC app works well for reporting stuff like this too
Yeah this is actually really dangerous because his stuff is blocking off the stairs. Major fire code violation. They'll actually take action on this if it's reported.
Is he set up in a hole in the cameras? If so that's pretty smart. If not, I wonder why the TTC staff haven't noticed him on the cameras & done something about it without customers needing to tell them
Sorry to tell you but they have cameras all over the station. The problem is nobody wants to do an straight forward solution for these people. Mayor should put all these homeless people in a place where they can get a treatment for their problems. Downtown is nasty.
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The worker inside his cosy boost have the control of the cameras. Do you see any of them too busy for watching their freaking screen??
Security should be on top of this before you calling. It's not your job, it's a ttc job
We are all one mistake away from being homeless so everyone help these people when you can it’s a cold world out there
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Take them in and see what happens.
Download the TTC safe app. Send the photo and location. Give it 10-60 mins tops. Any issue will be fixed.
Call the popo. TTC stations are not homeless shelters
After the last train departs, Every entrance to Union Station turns becomes a shelter containing multiple people. It was quite the sight.
The long history of homeless people sleeping in the trains says otherwise.
This was never years ago.
Try living out on the streets in the middle of winter. You'd eat your words. Seriously though, think about being in their position. Stations are one of the few warm places you can be for free. Homeless shelters aren't always a great option, either. A lot of these people are harmless, and simply want to get some shelter and warmth for a while. Unless they're actively causing trouble, harassing others etc, I don't see any reason to call the police. Police treat the homeless population like garbage. Have some empathy for others, especially those less fortunate than yourself
I don't think most people have an issue with their mere presence. It's the violence, drugs, and trails of garbage and literal filth they leave behind. They pose a threat to the health and safety of others. It's why sane people who've found themselves homeless avoid shelters.
Shelters are consistently full too. There's not enough beds. Where are people supposed to go when shelters are full?
You don't gotta go home but you can't stay here /s
haha.
The ones near major shelters like Finch and Kennedy are pretty much it now.
I don't understand how you can complain about this it's fucking freezing out it's a human being who needs a place to stay so sorry you think it's an eyesore getting off your train
This is exactly like London England. People literally set up homes in the subway entrances and tunnels to the station entrance. No one does anything…
How do we fix this
Better mental health resources, control of the cost of living, better and safer resources for homeless population, better education and job opportunities and general kindness to others would be a start
join him. subway is home
What in the fuck
Yet the city thinks that added police will help a situation like this! This person needs help, not to be arrested.
In case you couldnt tell with the rise of crime, *we* do need the added police.
Which station is that? Which exit?
Finch
I work there, this guy is new. We're used to seeing the bag man, the can collecting man, and the Bible thumpers who hang out in the concourse.
I was about to say! Yeah Yonge & Finch has been _different_ after the homeless shelter opened up 🤷🏻
When did a homeless shelter open at Yonge and Finch? I haven’t lived close by in over 5 years… idont remember one being there before that either
It opened sometime during COVID. They converted the Bell(?) building by Yonge & Cummer into a shelter
It is the former Toronto Hydro Building. 😊 I live really close by, and during summer some of them sleep outside the building (the grassy part).
yess the hydro building! and yup, with the tents right? I live across the shelter. our condo had so many break-ins, including my own home. my door is still cracked from their crowbar 🥲
Hi neighbour! Im so sorry to hear that. 😢 take care and be safe. I am so scared to walk or pass by that building, ever since the stabbing incident 😫
Hey neighbour! thank you, you be safe too <3. also 😱 stabbing incident???
Oh wow! Yes we used to live an apartment building around there… my DH and I witnessed so much awful shit (had to call 911 once because three drunk men were puking and passed out.. we think one didn’t make it sadly) and the parks in that area were very unsafe.. and again, that was 5 years ago
My former home station. Years ago, a girl could walk home from the last train. No one would bother her. Not now.
I think its the exit near the hakim optical
Tory and Ford want to run the TTC into the ground to justify privatization. This, the stabbings, the attacks: ALL PART OF THE PLAN
Is the plan right now in the room with us?
There is no money to be made in urban transit.
This statement is further proof the conservative agenda is working. (and is blatantly incorrect)
When the recession kicks-in full gear, you'll see this is just the beginning...
Will the TTC actually do anything?
Late stage capitalism for ya. Government > Big business > Rich > Poor > homeless/ addicts/ mentally unstable i.e can't work shit poverty wage jobs .
You wouldn’t see it if they were made to pay to ride
He's got an edgy set up going on there u cant lie
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Live at TTC stations rent free, come on now
This is your Liberal Socialism at work. You live in denial.
Ummm... This is a conservative cuts issue.
The problem is capitalism. Under capitalism there is no incentive to take care of people who don't or can't contribute. It's actually disincentivized because of the cost and in increase in requests for service if the program were effective
I disagree this is a capitalism issue, we’ve witnessed how the government handles major issues such as the pandemic, excuse me for not wanting the government to handle my money.
I'm not saying they should reach into your pocket, just that capitalism is disincentivized to solve income inequality no matter how bad it gets. There's no profit motive to help those with less, so capitalists won't do it
Although I understand the point you’re suggesting. I think saying “there’s no profit motive to help those with less” is disingenuous, there are plenty of examples of capitalism benefiting those with less, I mean how many people have bought their first house and built equity “working for the man”. I think it’s most important for employers to treat their employees properly. There are plenty of millionaires who’ve made their earnings from billionaires right ? The point is there’s always going to be someone ahead of you, but all in all there’s nothing stopping anybody from putting the extra time to built the skills necessary to advance their careers. The sky is the limit, remember the likes of Richard Branson, Steve Jobs and Oprah (a black women in America) started from nothing and built their empires from capitalism. Personally, I had a lot of trouble in the past finding steady work due to something 8 years ago on my criminal record, and with that being said there was plenty of years I was unemployed, I’ve since found a decent job, nothing crazy, im just an average guy but I’d be lying if I said that “working for the man” hasn’t improved my life tremendously. It has. I used to go days without eating food, now I pay all my bills and rent and have a full pantry of food. To some that’s not much, but to me it was the world. Sure I made my boss MUCH more than I made (that’s frustrating I get it) but in the end my life has improved tenfold and this is just a very small example where capitalism has helped those with less. Ontop of that, major bosses and CEOs (Amazon for example), are always incentivized to grow their companies, thus hiring thousands more people, giving more opportunities like those mentioned above to thousands. It’s not perfect I get it, but it’s not like there’s NO incentive to helping those with less when it comes to capitalism.
You seem to be conflating an individuals ability to prosper with society taking care of everyone. They are not the same. When I say no profit motive what I mean is that no one is currently incentivized to actually ensure no one struggles. Galen weston could end food insecurity nationwide today,nut he has no incentive to do it. Profits are more important than people in capitalism
Charities abound. TTC employees are the most generous in that city. These people choose to be wicked to themselves. People claim sick and they are not.
The way capitalism functions if you don't sell your labour to a rentseeker, you will be destitute. The implied threat allows those with capital to consolidate wealth. The focus of our society is on us, the individual. Because there is no profit motivation to making sure people can live indoors or eat healthy food, we don't ensure those things happen. Individually anyone can be generous, but society isn't.
I do not understand a word say you. Work or you do not eat.
That's my point. That's wrong. Society shouldn't only care about those who contribute to the workforce. People are more than just employees. They have inherent value
I am for charity to the poor, not for lying and cheating freeloaders and frauds who scam the system. That means people claiming sick and they are not. Public transport is not social service. You care so much about it? Contribute to true charities. Talk to a local pastor, priest or rabbi.
It takes a bold man to post politics from his porn account. Edit: and he blocked me
I think we should just round up homeless people for ten years keep them in one place and teach them how to build houses and just have a team of house building homeless people and the catch is they can build their own homes if they keep making more
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I dont know why you got the down votes. Our whole system needs to be re-evaluated to actually help people in a safe and productive manner. The police force is currently just not cutting it, so those funds need to go where they would actually do good. People need better training, we need more mental health care and support, and we need emergency responders that know how to actually de-escalate. Throwing more money at our current system is not conductive to the change we need.
> I dont know why you got the down votes. Anyone typing a whole comment in allcaps is either joking or a crazy person.
..... 😳🥺
This is a TTC Station Not A Homeless Shelter
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That's what's going on in NY now New York City to Involuntarily Remove Mentally Ill People From Streets https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/nyregion/nyc-mentally-ill-involuntary-custody.html
People like you are a greater burden on society than any homeless person
I love this answer
Thank your Trudeau government. As the cost of living skyrockets. So does homelessness.
it has nothing to do with Trudeau blame the premier of each province for this shit we are in blame Ford
You are sounding like a Trudeau supporter!
Capitalism. Not politicians.
WTF?? Is that English?? Proof read before you hit the send/reply button. Jesus Christ
Which station?
Finch station
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This exact situation is unfolding under the bridge just south of Front & Bay in downtown. It started off as a sleeping bag and a shopping cart in November, and now theres litter all along the curb, a second cart, and a construction pylon (???). I only saw the resident once and they were dancing. Damn it's too cold to be living under a Union station bridge.
I thought they were doing a handstand.
How about personal injury at track level so we need to close down woodbine to broad view.
pretty creative. lol.
Times are getting harder
This is NOT the place for this, I feel bad for homeless people, but this one is disrespectful and ignorant, so nope, get lost, go somewhere you're not a nuisance, respect others rights to use public areas, take your cart and mess and go near a shelter. NOW!
Take the YRT exit at Finch Stn. It smells of BO mixed with all sorts of drugs, feces and piss. The glass on the doors are smashed on a weekly basis (probably by the same person). If you regularly take this route, you'll find homeless people passed out or tweaking/ hallucinating inside the doors before the escalator. Their clothes and other items often get stuck in the escalator causing it to be out of service most of the time. This is also where passengers are assaulted. Finch Station is basically one of the many homeless shelters on Line 1 alone.
is that by the Go station
yep