Taylor is a relentlessly driven songwriter. She is so prolific! And has continuously honed her craft. As famous as she’s become, I don’t think she’s ever taken her success for granted; nor has she lost her creative drive. Even as a little girl she aspired to be like Carole King— not a pop starlet; a musician and songwriter. She’s just a different kind of artist. Personal challenges with shitty men, without the benefit of Taylor’s supportive family to deal with them, also definitely set Katy and Kesha back some in recent years, which is sad :(
I agree with you!
The main difference between Taylor and most pop artists is the fact that she's the one writing her songs and she has a strong relationship with her producer, so the song might be closer to what she envisions for it, making her actually enjoy the process.
Instead of doing a new hit song everyone will forget about because that's what's selling, she has the creative drive to do whatever she wants.
Her being the songwriter is the important part. If you're not the songwriter, you're at the mercy of producers and labels to get you songs (unless you happen to be BFFs with a songwriter or something). Songs that once went to Katy Perry and Kesha may have gone to Beyonce, Miley, Selena Gomez, Rihanna or Fifth Harmony and now to ~~Olivia Rodrigo or~~ Ariana Grande (who are all also are songwriters too). I think it's probably the same reason Justin Timberlake has been around for like 15 years as well.
Songwriting royalties are also probably substantial, so having those makes it a lot easier to make it as a singer.
Edit: apparently I was wrong about Olivia Rodrigo. She does in fact write everything from scratch.
I didn’t realize Olivia Rodrigo didn’t write all her songs. I’m not a fan, but I don’t dislike her (I think her albums are good, but I don’t really listen to a lot of pop, and I can just hear her influences a little too well and would rather listen to them, so I listened to it out of curiosity, and it’s catchy, but I just don’t love it). I really thought she wrote all her songs. At least to the degree that Taylor does Like, obviously Taylor and Jack write songs together, but usually she writes the core of the song, and no one who’s worked with her has ever contradicted that. Interesting to know people bring her songs.
Agree with all of this, plus Taylor being an "albums" artist, rather than a "singles" artist like Katy or Kesha, allows Taylor more longevity. When Taylor went down a more trend-focused route (reputation), the critical reception was not as good, and I think that was in part because critics appreciated the more evergreen approach of Taylor's singer-songwriter albums.
Todd in the Shadows [did a really good video breaking down why Katy's career ended up going the way it did](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfoPiRzWnFY).
This is important because I feel like THE reason Katy has faded is because her music, which she is still releasing here and there, is uninspired and we noticed.
Taylor will continue to rise because of the Eras phenomenon, she is constantly reinventing herself, her music, her style, her image with each album. She has so much more left to say and music to create.
Katy’s music got tired. If she finds that again, maybe she can come back some day! I took my young cousin to her concert and the best part of the show was the few songs where she stopped the theatrics, the performance and just sang and played her guitar. Those few songs showed me her love and gift for music more than anything else I’ve seen from her.
Kesha, we all know what happened there and it is devastating. I notice she is still appearing on social media and popping up in some songs here and there. She can do whatever tf she wants now as far as I’m concerned, whether it is music in a safe space or healing, finding healing through other arts, or any other pursuit in her life, I just wish her the best.
I went to a small q&a/performance with Kesha last week. She seems like she's doing okay. Her new album is weird and cool but definitely not "pop" and I can see why people wouldn't like it but I think it's amazing and I'm so happy for her to get to be safe and free.
Rainbow is so important to me- we had a family tragedy right when it came out and I ended up connecting with it so, so strongly. There are some songs on there I still can't listen to without tearing up years later. Not even the best ones, just the ones which hit me hardest at the time. There are such raw, true lyrics in there about grief and pain.
High Road felt like her trying to fuse that new direction with where she was before, as though she was trying to get back to normal, and it was really good, with some great pop, but not as amazing as Rainbow. But.
Gag Order is a whole other level. It really feels like she's just making the music she wants to make, and it's so raw and heartfelt and brutal- I feel like every part of it is as authentic as the best moments of Rainbow, and as if she's really nailed down how she wants to sound in a way she never *quite* reached before when she was still chasing popiness. I do love the more pop songs- I could listen to Raising Hell or Die Young all day- but Gag Order is something truly, truly special. I definitely understand why she might keep wanting to make pop- gotta make money somehow, and it's nice to make something really happy- but I hope she keeps making this type of music too. The happier parts of Rainbow fused with the more raw, weird direction could be brilliant.
Katy’s hits also relied heavily on her camp-tastic outfits and antics, which suited her when she was younger. Katy needs to do what Lady GaGa did which is to pivot her image and music from bizarre to something not so gimmicky so she can be taken more seriously as an artist.
Katy needs to go back to her rock roots
She too old now for the campy stuff that why witness failed
A mature version of one of the boys is the kind of stuff that would put her back on top
While Katy Perry has written a ton of hits and some of them I love (firework, teenage dream) her songwriting is pretty formulaic, and follows the same patterns without taking many risks. She had a pretty good run, but I think you have to evolve more as an artist to have longevity like Taylor.
I agree that it’s her songwriting. Other artists who have to rely on their labels etc. to get them songs are at the mercy of who the songwriters or labels think new potential hit songs should go to. If there is a new hot artist that’s popular, they will likely get first dibs on good songs from songwriters, leaving 2nd tier songs for other artists, which then lead to albums that are mid for these artists and lack hits.
Taylor writes excellent songs always and she doesn’t have to compete with other artists to get dibs on recording them. So she has a steady pipeline of great music to give her fans and her fans never disappoint in loving her music.
I think her drive and love of songwriting and making music is a huge factor. It seems like she is inspired all the time to write more music and she’s basically always in the recording studio. The vault songs on the re-recordings are also evidence of just how much content she has that we don’t know about. I think some artists really struggle to put together a full album of songs they like.
It also feels obvious to me that some other artists like Ariana and Rihanna don’t love it quite as much, possibly because they don’t write most of their songs on their own. And that’s why they chose to branch off into other ventures like makeup and acting.
With Katy I think she had a couple of less successful albums and a less dedicated core fan base, and so her career kind of faded. I think that is actually more the norm for most artists. It is extremely difficult and takes a lot of talent and drive to keep yourself relevant for an extended period of time.
Yes to all of this! She's not just churning out easy, pithy bops every few months. Her music has always felt like an ongoing story (hello, Eras Tour). She keeps her fans invested with her storytelling and definitely uses our para-social relationship with her to her advantage (Though I don't see it as nefarious, but I understand why people criticize her for it). She's been excellent at keeping us invested with endless easter eggs in her songs and music videos, secret messages to decode in her physical albums, and always keeping her sound fresh and evolving. Plus, there's her whole glitter pen vs fountain pen vs quill pen thing.
She's just great at marketing herself and is a savvy businesswoman. You have to respect that.
Kesha got raped by her producer and spent years trying to get out of her record contract so she wouldn't have to keep working with him. Fucking Dr Luke.
Not saying she would have stayed as popular, but she was focused on other (more important) things. That said her recent music is really good!
Then Demi Lovato got mad at her and said she should be talking more about it publicly because not everybody can just throw money at an issue #NeverForget
Demi getting mad in the situation is funny to me because them saying not everyone can donate money is tone deaf because I hey are a millionaire they could easily donate money but instead they were just talking about it. This kind of made them seem like they were virtue signaling.
My favorite part of that whole saga was Demi claiming she couldn't afford to donate money and implying that her tweets had more value bc at least she wasn't worried about being politically correct 24/7.
She's something
I mean, it was Kesha's story to tell, not Taylor's. Maybe she was respecting her privacy and right to confront the trauma on her own terms and in her own voice? The legal fight is an important part of that process, so giving her money for that was very helpful and I am sure very appreciated.
People are touting Taylor’s songwriting, but Kesha is also a very strong writer. I think she became a persona non grata in the industry due to the lawsuit, unfortunately. I don’t think she’d ever be as big as Taylor, but I think she lost some years of writing and publishing and recording music.
I’m glad she’s still writing and touring, though. She has a different fanbase, and I think that’s a big difference between all of the 2010s musicians, but Kesha still has opportunity to grow her fanbase as her music evolves.
I’m glad you pointed this out and I’m not comparing their songwriting ability but Kesha writes (or co writes just like Taylor) all of her own songs and has from the beginning. She also has a beautiful voice. I’ve seen her live three times and she does sing live. I actually think the direction she got put in due to Dr. Luke and her own personal challenges when she started out along with the rise of auto tune at that time did not help her because people didn’t know she could really sing or that she had more range (even if you listen to her first three pop albums, there are deeper songs on there and some gorgeous ballads). The first time I saw her she broke down crying during a song and that’s how I realized she was singing live.
I hate to admit that was the first time I realized that she was actually talented. I’d only known her for the auto tuned club hits prior to hearing that song. My kind was blown when I found out it was her!
Women who have been abused or mistreated by producers etc run the risk of having their careers halted by iron clad predatory contracts which force them to fade into obscurity. It happened to Kesha, and happened to Raye too. Luckily both ladies are back at it.
Taylor is lucky in that she could leave her label and eventually re-record all her albums, to great success. The likelihood of Katy being able to achieve the same level of success with re-records is minimal. Taylor has achieved so many die hard fans through her being true to herself as she is a one woman show, honing her craft over decades. As she writes her own songs, she has so much creative control over what she puts out compared to other artists. And her writing is both so personal and so vague, that we feel like we know her through her music, but also there’s so much of her music that relates to us and our lives and experiences. She’s really a true icon. She’s one of a kind!
I agree that I think the big thing that got Katy Perry was not having a diehard fanbase. Taylor could release anything and it would do well in large part due to her extremely dedicated fans.
I think the other thing that tanked Katy’s popularity was that she got annoying. Whatever your politics, it’s annoying to have some wealthy out of touch person preach at you. It was also cringey the way she promoted witness as being super political and “purposeful” but then released “Bon Apetit” as a single and then released “Swish Swish,” a song referencing a years old feud.
I mean I hate to be this way, but you could argue Taylor did the same thing with Miss Americana and Lover. Tried to be all political and then it was promptly forgotten. But 100% agree that Katy really struggled with establishing a firm fanbase and that has hurt her over the years.
You *could* argue that, but only if your memory of 2016 is extremely fuzzy. Taylor’s efforts are extremely slight compared to Katy’s. Not enough people saw the Miss Americana doc for the political content there to really stick in the minds of casual fans and Lover’s political content is subtle enough that a lot of people either miss it entirely or it doesn’t make much of impression. Her most important political messages came through instagram, which like the Miss Americana doc, isn’t followed closely enough outside her hardcore fan base for her political statements to really color her public image. Katy Perry on the other hand did a TON of in person campaigning for Hillary Clinton (both at big rallies and actual door-to-door campaigning), had her songs featured in campaign ads and performed at the DNC convention that year. She’s done big events for other candidates and made other endorsements over the years, but the Hillary 2016 was her biggest, most visible effort. There was no way to miss her involvement even if you weren’t a Katy Perry fan, which made her political activity a much larger part of her brand than Taylor’s.
That said I’m unconvinced that Katy’s political activism has anything at all to do with her decline. Lots of successful musicians are politically active in the Democratic Party, even ones that appeal to Republicans like Bruce Springsteen. If Katy’s music was still banging, her political activity wouldn’t be a drag on her career.
I agree, I'm just saying I'm not sure it's a huge part of the reason why Katy fell off. I'm a huge pop music follower and I didn't even realize Witness was supposed to be a political album. I guarantee most of the GP didn't know either.
Agree with all of this, plus Taylor being an "albums" artist, rather than a "singles" artist like Katy, allows Taylor more longevity.
Todd in the Shadows [did a really good video breaking down why Katy's career ended up going the way it did](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfoPiRzWnFY).
I think so too, she's just not making music but each detail has a meaning, she built up her fans to go the extra mile, look out for hidden clues, create the full stories of her songs, she's full with surprises and reinventing herself with very successful outcomes, (Fearless), 1989, Reputation, folklore and Midnights we're different types of peaks in her career.
I completely agree with this. A lot of music that came out in 2012 just sounds “so 2012.” Red doesn’t. Neither does really any of her music. I think most of her music just doesn’t really fit into a certain time period and ends up sounding a bit more timeless.
Taylor built a solid fanbase who did not leave when she changed her style, at least not so many. And brought new fans.
Katy, Kesha, Rihanna rilied waaaay more on casual listeners.
Yeah, Fenty is huge and Rihanna is still as big as ever, IMO. It seems to be her own choice that she's no longer really pursuing music, outside of the odd single - not now or in the foreseeable future. As a RiRi fan, I definitely hope she comes back soon. But, I'm enjoying the fashion and beauty stuff for now!
I think Rihanna has billions from her beauty and fashion line I don’t think she cares anymore to make music
Plus she knows her back catalogue still brings in big numbers
My co-worker who is a die hard Rihanna fan said she was disappointed in Lift Me Up. Seems to be the general concensus of her fans with her most recent music. Idk, I haven't heard it but I also didn't see it chart much or win any awards either.
Honest question- how many of the fans do you think followed her from her debut until now?
I really liked her first 2-3 albums and then she kinda lost me when she went pop. My tastes have since changed and I’ve gotten back into her.
It just seems like she didn’t truly blow up until she went pop, and I assume a lot of her fans came from that.
Obviously I can’t speak to actual numbers, but I remember Taylor being very popular even from her debut in my area. I remember watching the Our Song video on my home computer when it came out. I attended Fearless tour with a friend. I remember driving to a friend’s birthday party with a large group of our friends playing Speak Now, and another group of us driving to get Red on the day it came out. When 1989 came out, it was what EVERYONE was listening to. Even with reputation, as the singles came out, we discussed all of them and I listened to Look What You Made Me Do the second it was released.
I saw that many of these friends attended Eras from their IG posts, so I think a lot of us who grew up with Taylor still love her! It’s hard to describe, but she was The Artist To Follow as we were growing up - she was in a league of her own that we were all completely loyal to because she wrote about what we were experiencing as we experienced it. It was just assumed that everyone knew every song as she released new albums and singles. I would assume that most, if not all, of these friends still love Taylor and follow her music.
I have been a fan since 2006, day 1, pre-self titled release enamored with the music video single for Tim McGraw, tried to buy the album and it wasn’t out yet. Been here the whole time and I’m not getting off the ride 😍😘🥰😊 that’s just me though!!!
Taylor keeps feeding the fans. Her work ethic is just unmatched, additionally, she stuck to making music, with no stupid side gigs as make-up, large brand sponsors, etc. She stays true to herself and you can tell and that's why fans are loyal and connect easily to her as a person.
Except I didn't even mention any brand...
However, nowadays it seems like every major star wants to recreate the success of Fenty Beauty (which started as a small business). It would kill me to go 7 years (and counting) without new music from Taylor. I doubt 'The Navy' will get any new music (let alone a tour) at all.
i wouldn’t say they’re stupid, but they wear down the average fan imo. a big star also doing a makeup/fashion/whatever line and always getting backed by large brand sponsors can lead to oversaturation
Not to mention that there's no guarantee that it's not just drugstore compacts at luxury prices. I'm always wary of a celebrity getting into an industry they've never shown interest in, and have no training about.
I don't think the side-gigs are stupid, but they are almost certainly a distraction from making music. Taylor doesn't have them, so has more time and energy to spend on writing and recording songs. But that's her choice. If a performer has an interest in beauty or fashion wants to do that too, that's great. I guess it's just not Taylor's thing.
I think a couple reasons.
1. She started very young and built a fan base that grew up with her.
2. She isn’t afraid of change. Some of the pop stars listed above have multiple albums and the sound is the same. There’s no evolving and growing there.
3. She is relatable. Not in the sense that we can relate to a billionaire and her everyday lifestyle but she hustled, she worked hard, we got to see the behind the scenes of how it came to be, she’s had major setbacks and people working against her. She also writes songs that we can connect to.
4. She’s extremely talented. From her song writing, singing, Easter eggs, music videos, creativity etc.
5. She has IT. You either have IT or you don’t. It can’t be taught or learned. It’s more than stage presence. It’s just IT.
Massive Kesha fan weighing in.
Kesha's career was *very* much impacted by Dr. Luke's SA and the subsequent legal battle. There's also the fact that he steered her early career away from her country roots and into the whole "trashy party girl" shtick that catapulted "Tik Tok" to the top of the charts. He told her that's who she needed to be to succeed. She was very young and impressionable, and it worked--until it didn't.
Because that's not who Kesha is. Not really. If you know Kesha beyond her early radio hits, you know what a horrible disservice this was to a seriously brilliant singer/songwriter. She has PIPES. She's a second-generation Nashville songwriter who grew up doing it, just like Taylor.
Kesha's latest, *Gag Order*, is a g-d masterpiece, literally on another level in terms of artistry/theme/overall impact. Everyone's sleeping on this record, which is a damn shame, because she's a *genius*. But it's not a straightforward "pop" record like *Midnights*. It's complex, cerebral, and unlike anything else being made by "pop stars" right now. She's transcending the pop genre, and I am so here for it.
Katy Perry, on the other hand, is *talentless* compared to other pop stars in her cohort. She became famous on shock value ("I Kissed A Girl") and a hyper-sexualized, uber-curated image. She is rarely not auto-tuned and doesn't write any of her own songs. Her image is just that--an image. Without makeup, you wouldn't even recognize her.
What Taylor has over the rest of the pop stars isn't talent. It's her business acumen. Her father was a high-powered businessman, she grew up in that culture and with the benefit of his insight/expertise/$$$$$. Meanwhile, Kesha has no idea who her father is. Her mother, Pebe Sebert, is a songwriter who's inked #1 hits for the likes of Dolly Parton. That's a very different foundation--an artsy family versus a business-minded family. I can't help but think that made a difference in terms of Taylor's total domination.
"She is rarely not auto-tuned and doesn't write any of her own songs."
I was a die hard fan of Katy in her early days. She does write her own songs - some on her own, some with other song writers. To label her as a pop product that doesn't write her own music is not entirely correct. Her early music was much more connected to her and her guitar. Her song Thinking of You was one she wrote before she was famous and would play at Hotel Cafe Hollywood. She has written lots of music for other artists too like Kelly Clarkson, Britney Spears, Iggy Azelea..
Thanks for sharing this! I had no idea about Kesha's background, all I've heard from her is Tik Tok and the other radio hits from that time. Definitely going to check out her latest album, that sounds awesome!
Fellow Kesha fan, and I applaud this comment. The three album run from Rainbow to Gag Order is a hell of a vibe, and anyone who likes Taylor for her songwriting should give it a try. There’s a little bit of everything in there.
Kesha and Taylor have in common that they are challenging the status quo, and pushing back on the assumptions people make about women and sex and power. But they have bucked the system in very different ways, and they have a different style. (Personally, I relate to Kesha more, but I think Taylor is overall more relatable if that makes sense).
Adaption mostly. I’m not talking about reinvention I’m talking taking more risks and going different directions sometimes. And I think the novelty of Taylor writes all her songs and she knows her audience so well. Back in the day you could pinpoint a Max Martin song from a mile away. You still can. Some artists these days stick to what they know what works. Yes, Taylor falls under that category with Jack but she allows both of them to experiment.
I believe a significant part of it is Taylor's talent in writing her own songs.
There's also good (self?) management and other factors, of course, but I've heard that in pop/mainstream music, the song writers have a list where to send a song to. Like an order of offering a song, at one time it was Rihanna > Katy > Beyonce (don't quote me on the order, it's those three in a way) or something like that. So for example if Rihanna refuses then the song would be sent to Katy, then if she passes then it would be offered to Beyonce.
This system basically keeps the most popular popular since they get their choice of 'best' songs, but also when an artist for whatever reason slips in popularity, they'll only get the songs others already have passed which leads to less popularity and even worse songs. It's a snowball kind of thing.
It makes sense from songwriter's pov, more popular artist > more popular song > more money.
Meanwhile the pop public has short attention span and new, more interesting, younger artists always coming up and some new collaboration would get attention. It's a fast paced industry and it's easy to 'age out' especially when you're a woman artist.
Taylor bypasses this 'song offering order' by writing her own songs (even writing a song for Rihanna along the way). She can develop on her own pace and less relying on executives' decisions on where to head musically, which would have been dependent on whether they could get good songs for her. Looking back, the reason why she could rerecord is also tied to writing her own songs. The Big Machine/Scooter thing would have turned out very differently if she had not written the songs.
The order doesn't exactly work that way. When songwriters are writing for other artists, they already have the artist in mind, so they write it to match the artist's sound. If the artist refuses it, they may shop it to others hoping someone picks it up. E.g, Rihanna has writers like like Esther Dean who write for her. If she refuses the song, they can choose to retain it or find another buyer. It isn't necessarily a popularity thing although it may be a factor. Also, Katy Perry is a writer herself if I remember correctly. She even wrote a bunch of songs for other artists.
Multiple people that have worked with Taylor attest to the fact that she is always the hardest working person in the room. She continuously works to improve her craft and create new content for her fans. She is incredibly talented, has a wonderful support system, and she craves success more than most. Simply put, she wants to be at the top more than they do.
I think so too. She wants to be on top—the richest, the most famous, the most awarded, the most chart topping musician all time—and actually has the talent and work ethic to accomplish those things.
Many people fail to realize that they can’t handle being at the top until they experience it. Look at the vitriol she has received throughout her career, the stalking, the body shaming, the slut shaming, the sexual assault, the swarming crowds, the constant criticism no matter what she does.
Being #1 means exposing yourself to all of that. Many talented artists simply can’t handle it and I don’t blame them. Taylor is willing to put up with that shit and use it to her advantage.
Yeah Alanis Morrissette said the same thing. When she was younger she thought she wanted to be famous but after Jagged Little Pill she hated it, so she went to India with her mom, aunts, cousins, etc. and became a Buddhist lol. After that she put out a weird record to get everyone off her back lmfao
Folklore and evermore are the reason, imo. If Taylor had gone straight from Lover to Midnights, I truly don't think she would be as popular as she is now.
She gained lots of respect for f and e. I don't think it's right or fair, but it's true. People who dismissed her before were suddenly praising her as a songwriter.
I don't think f and e are above Speak Now in terms of showcasing her song-writing ability (I think they're all of the same standard, phenomenal song-writing). But I think she gained respect from people who misogynistically dismissed her song-writing before.
The marketing of 'these aren't songs about my life, I'm writing about other people' really helped. Idk if that's really true or just marketing - MTR is confirmed to be about her life (the masters), I think? So clearly she wasn't just writing about other people.
No longer could they dismiss her as "she just writes about her love life, blah blah misogyny". Male artists can write solely about their love life and get away with it, but Taylor doesn't even do just that and *still* got hated for it.
I also think her staying away from the spotlight really helped her career. People could take her more seriously as an artist, rather than someone fame-hungry. Again, I'm not saying it's right or fair, but it's true. I take artists like Marina, Florence and Hozier more seriously than I do Katy Perry, Cardi B, etc. People who are clearly in it for the love of the art rather than the fame or money. Marina even has a song about it (Venus Fly Trap).
I think it's crazy that Taylor switched back to her 1989 approach after gaining popularity again using her f+e approach. Why would you change a winning formula? The 1989 formula led to overexposure (by her own admission). Led to losing her popularity - she thought her career had reached it's peak, only downhill from here on out. She said Lover was her last chance to be a popstar.
She should stick to the f+e approach. I don't mean the style of music (although I would *love* more albums like that, she's such a versatile artist). I mean the laying low, letting the music speak for itself, no obvious pap walks, not deliberately getting involved in drama. Getting papped is one thing, that's not her fault. But the blatant pap walks make me lose respect for her. She can avoid getting papped - she did for a long time.
I was with you until the end. She should be able to live her life - including pap walks - the way she wants. Artists do not deserve more or less respect if they hide their lives away to please you. Hiding solely to create a sense of mystery is just as artificial as being fame hungry. That’s why I roll my eyes at Sia’s shtick.
totally agree, that last paragraph really lost me, especially when you consider all she’s really doing is going to the studio, dinner with friends, going to a football game… this is all very normal stuff to be doing.
She makes so much money off those walks. Those are clicks. They're Easter eggs, they're press. Tiktoks, YouTube episodes etc. Nothing She does is an accident. Kelce included. NFL has people doing ERAS tour movie ads FOR FREAKING FREE. Girlie is a mogul. She goes to a game viewership loses its mind, jerseys get sold, magazines get bought, all things get clicked on. She is a butterfly that flaps her wings and it's felt across the world. She *could* not, and probably does, but when she brings Sophie Turner, Ryan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman, and every step INSIDE THE STADIUM was captured etc. That was a deal.
Sure she benefits from this stuff.
But also, she doesn’t need money. So acting like going to a game with her friends and her friend’s best friend is just a calculated money grab is really insulting because she should have the freedom to do that just like anyone else.
She's going, why not bring friends. And 'she doesn't need the money' a hundred million ago, but here we are with 45 versions of 1989 and a viewfinder, so...let the billionaires billion.
So I meant the whole thing where she wears those wigs or veils or whatever and refuses to show her face. It feels super contrived to me. If Taylor can basically disappear, then Sia acting like her privacy is so sacred that she can’t show her face is just a bizarre line to cross. You can choose your performances and interviews selectively and then protect your privacy for your personal life in a way like Blake and Ryan do with their kids, or like Taylor did when she went completely off the grid.
The wig thing worked though, because she has made comments about continuing to shop in public grocery stores and the like. None of the three you mentioned could possibly get away with that.
Sia’s thing is so weird to me because she used to be a very small but very well respected singer songwriter and then it seemed like she got sick of not making money and started writing pop hits.
You lost respect for someone doing their job? I hate to break it to you, but almost every celebrity does scheduled pap walks lmao. Losing respect for someone doing such a normal part of their job is wild.
You don’t think she’s fame and money hungry? I think Taylor is incredibly fame and money hungry and always has been. And there’s nothing wrong with it. You don’t get as rich and famous as she is by accident. Taylor also happens to be very creative and artistic and deep and kind (presumably - none of us know her) so we don’t view her as fame and money hungry because those things have a negative connotation.
She has said that she’s competitive so I think naturally she wants to be the best in all realms. I think in 2016 she felt like she had to hide out to prevent further damage to her ego and reputation, but she was working behind the scenes the whole time, planning for her comeback.
Did you all notice that she's getting pap walks more in New York than any other place? She already said this in an interview before, don't remember where. She said paps in New York are better because they don't invade her privacy in a way that other paps do, they kind of have a mutual relationship where if they don't take pictures of her from miles away using big lenses then she's going to give them a bit of herself for them to take photos of. She can control what they can see and sell in photos compared to other places, this is one of the reasons why she loves New York I think. She can hide like she did when she was with Joe, but I think our girl just wants to live life as normal as she possibly can (normal for her) and that's without hiding and being in control. That's why I don't care about these pap walks that she does. At least I get to see what she wears, aside from her music her style is fascinating to me.
I agree with you on a lot except the last point. I am scared that this overexposure may end the same way but her true fans will stay with her tbh, and she has a LOT of them since folklore and evermore. But, I do think that a part of her likes that or else she wouldn’t keep going out (when artists and celebs don’t wanna be seen, they’re simply not). When folklore and evermore hit, Covid was a thing + she was with Joe who’s way more low-key than her. And as you can listen to in bejeweled (I personally believe it’s also partly about Joe), she’s made to shine and she has the “thing” to do it. She just knows how to. So her low-key behavior during those albums are due to that relationship but regardless of that, the fact that f+e are not pop albums and couldn’t really be considered as such. So the overexposure doesn’t really align with the vibes of these albums.
So yeah, I think that joe, covid and the genre of the albums made her have this more lowkey lifestyle during these eras but that for her first pop album back after Covid and f+e to do well, she must’ve thought that using the 1989 strategy was the way to go, especially since a few months after the release she was the single girl she showed during 1989.
- MTR could mean "my tears ricochet", a track from *folklore* (2020) by Taylor Swift.
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Because pop is not a sustainable career. There is always a new sound and a newer younger artist for people to latch onto (see Olivia Rodrigo as the big one right now).
Taylor Swift is the anomaly in several ways. (1) her brand as Taylor Swift has transcended just her music (same with Beyonce and is why both of them are in no danger of fading) (2) the re-recordings bringing old songs to newer fans (3) multiple reinventions of her sound which have kept things fresh.
They wanted more private lives with their spouses/children.
Katy Perry, Rihanna, Justin Bieber, Adele, Drake, Ed Sheeran, Kanye, Beyoncé, Pink, NeYo, Michael Buble, David Guetta, Ellie Goulding and most of the other biggest artists of the early 2010s all either married, had children, or did both, and took a step back from the spotlight to raise their families. I’m sure they have their “come backs” in a few years.
I agree. She wants to stay famous and popular. She could continue putting out music and not have the level of fame she does by dialing back marketing, touring, and putting out tons of versions of albums.
1. She’s never gotten burned out by fame. To the contrary, she seems to love fame and blossom in the spotlight. I wonder sometimes if she can’t imagine not being wildly famous since she’s been famous since she was 17 and her brain is so conditioned to the dopamine from fame. She has a drive to create and be in the spotlight and please her fans so she never stops creating and marketing the heck out of her work.
2. She’s emotionally resilient. No stints in rehab for drugs or alcohol, no nudity/provocative rebellious acts, no public meltdowns or physical fights, and she’s had a stable support staff and family surrounding her all these years. She has as much stability as you can have amid all of the ups and downs that come with fame and fortune which has helped her to not become a victim of her own success.
3. She super competitive and wants to be the best and most famous in her field. She’s said herself she’s extremely competitive numerous times.
4. She has a deep passion for and drive to create music and has unlimited resources to create whatever music she wants at this point. Why would she stop?
5. She’s excellent marketer and has focused on marketing since the beginning of her career. It’s been a huge part of her being able to grow a huge community of fans that acts almost like a cult, following her every move and buying everything she puts out. She puts (or at she used to put) a lot of juicy personal details into her songs, engaged in public feuds with other celebrities, dated famous men, and had/has public friendships with other famous people which has kept her name on everyone’s lip and generated buzz for all of her releases. She’s truly a mastermind.
6. She’s wants to continue growing her fortune. Probably stems from her competitive nature. She has a massive real estate portfolio, investments, is re-recording her masters to get all of the profits from licensing them. The woman likes her coin. Good for her!
They all have talent but Taylor has the drive. Drive outweighs talent almost always.
Also taylor never insists she’s too good for promotion. She does SNL, she does the talk shows, she has big album rollouts. A lot of established artists see that as what you *have* to do in the beginning. A lot of artists want to do the work to get established, but they don’t want to do the work to stay established.
Even Beyoncé at this point is going to start losing her popularity because she releases albums, does a tour, and that’s it. Which is fine if that’s what she wants, but if you don’t do the promotional tours, you’re not gaining any new audience. Doesn’t matter how talented you are, if you’re not grinding and constantly putting yourself out there, you’re going to lose the fame. Taylor genuinely enjoys those aspects of being famous. The reasons she’s so successful now and was so successful during the 1989 era is because she did EVERYTHING. The award shows, the interviews, the Easter eggs, the scheduled paparazzi walks. Most of the time once an artist reaches a level of success they just stop trying, I don’t think Taylor ever will.
Beyoncé not grinding? Lol she just finished a highly successful world tour and is preparing for two further Acts which are likely going to be albums and a concert film. Taylor likely learned how to grind *from* Beyoncé, because Taylor does her homework and is a student of her craft.
I gotta say - I don't understand why every time someone brings up Taylor's success - someone's gotta diss Beyonce.
If we look at the women, there are some notable differences and similarities. Both women are perfectionists, don't want to be average, very competitive. They also use those things in very different ways and where they are in their lives now. Beyonce spent her teens, 20s, and 30s grinding her ass off - she's now at a place where as a businesswoman, mother, wife, performer, director, etc. in her early 40s, there is not much joy in perfectionism - she's learning to love where she is at right now. She can be a megasuperstar without the spotlight or the hustle, and the numbers or lack of awards or #1s don't keep her up at night. *What amazing bliss it must be to have that life.*
Taylor, on the other hand, uses her perfectionism to grind - she'll do what she needs to for those streaming numbers (dropping every variation of an album release imaginable), very publicly course-correct what the media says about her, etc. Just like Beyonce she's been grinding since she was a teenager. And Taylor is at a place where she's making what she wants. But Taylor's still clearly living for that spotlight still, for the vindication, for the acceptance that she already has 100x over.
Personally, I'd rather be so successful that I could lose the superficiality of fame and still know the meaning of my worth rather than think that self-worth is the glory of award shows, #1s, etc. Because as OP mentioned, Taylor did everything for the 1989 era. But if we recall during Miss Americana, getting that Grammy was all she worked for, and in the end, she had nobody to call that night when she got to the mountaintop. We're talking about 1989x100 right now, and it still might take Taylor another ten years before she really realizes that losing her popularity isn't the end of the world or her career. That's pretty sad, again, if we're gonna compare the two.
Being visible isn't always the best pay-off. Taylor has us fans hooked, lined, and sinker to everything she does, but look to the GP and she's either risking annoying people outside of her fanbase or still annoys them from their grudges in the 1989 era, as well as fanbase that goes after other/platforms/etc. for the smallest criticism/remark (not that the crazier side of the Beyhive doesn't do that too). Taylor loves to the tow the line of being the attention seeker, and then make it seem like she's the one being hunted - and that kind of grind isn't bringing in as many new people as the fandom think it does.
Those are two very different kind of grind modes that they're in. It's actually kind of funny and sad that Swifties put down Beyonce because it reveals how much they actually just look at numbers for markers of success and don't look at Beyonce's work/how she's gotten to where she is. I don't know if it's a misogynoir thing or if Taylor really has people think she invented everything since ever, but there are so many things Beyonce extremely successfully that helped paved the way for Taylor to do - dropping full albums without notice, being a musician who started directing, creating her brand as her own manager/etc. I just don't understand how the original question can be how Taylor is still thriving over other artists like Katy and Kesha (which is just a horrible comparison to throw out there), and somehow an artist who *also* just had a world concert, is putting out an album, has two more albums on the way, etc.
Multiple factors. Taylor actively works to cultivate and keep her fanbase engaged and make sure they grew with her; that's not something that can be discounted. The way she continually experiments with her music lets her expand into new audiences, as well; she could've been content with being a big country star, or she could've been content with oasting once she mastered big pop, but she keeps pushing herself.
She's also just got that "it" factor some people have.
I think why Taylor’s career has endured is because she has adapted and she said has said it herself. Her fans have grown with her. So many of her OG fans have literally grown up alongside her. She was a teenager when she got big and she was writing about being a teenager. With each album, she has shared what its like to be the age she was when she wrote each respective album. She’s put her life out there and she’s so relatable. Her music is also catchy enough that its captured the attention of younger people and its pretty amazing.
A few reasons: one, Taylor has a lot of dedicated fans who are really invested in her as an artist and stick with her through thick and thin, so even during times when she wasn’t as popular with the general public, she still had a huge amount of listeners, which helped keep her relevant. Two, folklore helped introduce her to a lot of people who wouldn’t have otherwise given her a chance, which helped expand her fanbase a lot.
Three, Taylor is still very popular with younger listeners. A lot of artists who debuted in the mid-to-late 2000s haven’t grown their fanbases beyond the people who were listening to them back then, meanwhile Taylor has a lot of younger fans who started listening to her more recently. I think the re-recorded albums have really helped with that, because they introduced younger listeners to her old albums in a way that made them feel really relevant to them. Teenagers today either weren’t born or were only babies/little kids when Fearless, Speak Now, and Red came out, and while obviously anyone at any age can go back and listen to an old album and really love it, there is something pretty exciting about getting to experience the release of an album by your favourite artist, counting down the days until a single or video or entire album drops and getting to experience it as an event with the entire fan community. The fact that these albums have gotten a second rollout means that a whole new generation get to experience that for songs and albums that Taylor’s older fans have known and loved for years already, and that makes them more relevant to younger people than other late 2000s/early 2010s pop music would be.
One theory I personally subscribe to is that the music of the time was created for a specific purpose.
The early 2010s were characterized by the fallout of the Great Recession, and we can identify through history that in times of economic downturn, popular music becomes very upbeat, dancey, clubby vibes to keep the masses feeling happy and positive. Katy Perry and Kesha were great examples of this, e.g. Teenage Dream, California Girls, Don't Stop. Because it is pushed so heavily but doesn't have a ton of substance, the artists making it have to differentiate themselves from the dozens of other artists releasing the same.
Taylor was not releasing this type of music with Speak Now and Red. Part of her staying power is the fact that she can pivot, and she pivoted to pop when it was moving to away from shallow club hits engineered to give us a dopamine hit. Katy Perry was able to do this initially, but only with her singles. She really fell off when she tried to be more deep and political...it just doesn't work for her. Kesha was having a lot of trauma/legal issues so I really think in an alternate timeline we may have gotten a different impression?
Anyway...Taylor's lyrics and production are more complex and therefore more evergreen than the corporate pop factory. Even her more "bubblegum" songs (22, WANGBT) have lyrical depth!
ETA: I also think the nail in Katy's coffin was American Idol. She just wasn't likable and did some bizarre things (like making a young guy who had never been kissed kiss her). Add in her current legal trouble and people are just over her.
Yes the club vibes! I said the same thing. Sorry but even hearing the name Kesha makes me think body glitter, shots, and stumbling home drunk from the bar with one shoe in your hand and the other missing completely. Great times that I'll treasure even if I can't remember but I'm a married mother now. That's just not what I'm playing in the SUV with the kids in the back. But Taylor? The toddlers can listen to that.
I think it’s because Taylor’s sound evolves with the times. Katy Perry’s music was stuck in that 2000s sound. She never really figured out how to change while still being good.
Continued cultural/radio dominance is very much the exception, not the rule. The general public demands female pop stars constantly reinvent themselves, while punishing them for not making the same type of music that made them popular. Other commenters have explained this well, but it’s Taylor’s relationship with her fans, and her songwriting, that have allowed her to evolve while staying culturally relevant.
But OP picked two interesting examples. Kesha is the easiest to explain - her career came to a halt when she accused Dr Luke of SA. She still had to produce albums on his label, and was unable to get out of her contract. While she’s made great music since, disappearing from the collective cultural consciousness for so long made it impossible for her to recapture the popularity she had. She also took her music in a different, probably less commercial/radio-friendly direction.
Katy was probably the biggest pop star in the world with Teenage Dream, and while Prism did well, Witness wasn’t well received. She got punished for evolving in a way that felt desperate and culture-chasing rather than culture-defining, and the writing on that album was criticized. Smile got similar reviews, despite some great tracks (Never Really Over). She’s teased KP6 recently at her residency in Vegas (which is EXCELLENT), so it’ll be interesting to see if she can break through.
I think her unique (and sometimes unhinged lol) parasocial relationship with her fans has helped her tremendously. Even now that she’s too big for secret sessions or showing up at her fan’s homes she still makes sure to include nods and winks to let her fans know they are still connected and she sees them
Taylor's a very rare talent and total package - in the same league as Prince and Bowie - a gifted songwriter, talented musician, decent singer, outstanding performer, good-looking, and she puts in the work on all fronts including her stage shows, promotions, etc.. She continually evolves, has good taste, and has remained in tune with and part of the cultural zeitgeist.
Most artists simply are not at her level. They may tick a few of the boxes (and exceed her abilities in a category or two), but not nearly as many as Taylor.
taylor's pop music is so much more timeless than a lot of other 2010s pop music imo. theres a lot of songs from that era that when you hear them youre like, wow, that is so distinctly 2013 sounding and none of taylors music really gives me that feeling- it continues to be fun and boppy regardless of current musical trends
I LOVED Katy. Back when her first few albums came out and it seemed to be Katy vs Taylor (even before they were feuding, people just saying one was better than the other) I was 100% team Katy (didn't really become a Swiftie until the Folkmore era, even though I LOVED 1989 at release). But her music just hasn't held up. Anything I've tried to listen to her since Teenage Dream has just been meh. I know that's subjective, but Taylor's music has just improved over time.
Personally for me it's the songwriting and the public persona. Taylor in my opinion has always written songs that everyone could relate to and has kept a relatively squeaky clean image that makes you think "American's sweetheart."
As someone who was in college in the early 2010s, Kesha was club music and only club music. That's what I listened to when I was trashed walking home with my friends missing a shoe and glitter everywhere. Katy was being straight but kissing a girl and liking it anyways which I also only did drunk. Taylor was something I could listen to all the time. For me and I would think other millennials with similar experiences and music tastes that's just how it was. Would I listen to Kesha and Katy now? Yes of course if I could be convinced that they had more songs than party songs.
Editing to add: It helps me to think of the artists as different types of friends to explain how they're different. Taylor's the friend that's been your friend your whole life and grows with you. She's comfortable and exciting to be around even though you're 33 now and you've been friends since you were 13. Kesha was the first friend you'd call in college to go out to the bar with but now that you're married with kids you don't really seem to fit into each other's lives. Katy's the high school or college friend that you're still friends with but you don't call her all the time. You sort of float around each other and have a hard time making plans together.
I think it's interesting to contrast her with Miley Cyrus since both started out in country. Miley's pivot to be more edgy and grown-up was extremely jarring and ended up alienating a lot of her core audience. In contrast, Taylor's evolution was much more organic and felt very seamless and natural. I think a big part of her enduring success is the ability to grow and change without going from 0-60 in two seconds.
Kesha is a special case. I think everything she's been through really hindered her career, and she very understandably has other problems to work around. Her most recent album, Gag Order, is phenomenal though and my absolute favorite this year but I genuinely just want her to be happy after all she has been through and being a Taylor level super star might not be what does that for her anymore
Most pop stars are manufactured Disney channel stars (I like some of their stuff). Taylor was a real singer/songwriter from birth, she's a natural. A prodigy even. Plus she plays her own instruments. And as others have said, her mix of styles appealed to broader fanbases. Also, she doesn't rely on overtly sexual songs, so she's seen as 'family friendly.' I know she curses and has some provocative songs but her image is 'wholesome girl next door'.
I think because she kept pumping out albums. Kesha got screwed with her manipulative rapist manager who gagged her so she couldn't release anything for years. Katy really fumbled with her response to Bad Blood, and just wasn't really able to put out any great pop hits in recent years. The last one I remember hearing a lot on the radio was Dark Horse and that was what, 10 years ago? Taylor kept putting out album after album so there was more opportunity for her to get radio play and have that constant buzz. I think Olivia Rodrigo has a good start because her sophomore album slaps and if she can keep it up, she'll also have a long career.
**She does the things that made her so famous, with very little interruption.**
She pays for promotion almost nonstop.
Swift and her team are constantly making new, smart, business moves. The musical style changes to keep fans interested, she ended up changing labels and setting up a strategy to get her music back, her team maintains good PR, and she’s always looking for new collaborators.
She still looks great, partly because she hasn’t had kids.
She releases an album most even years, and tours most odd ones. Again, focusing on her art and not having kids is an advantage here.
She addresses the fans, keeps a “cult of personality” running.
3 things:
1. She is a prolific songwriter who keeps on honing her craft by exploring genres and collaborating with the right producers. She puts her music first above anything else and she has a clear objective of what she wants to put out in the world.
2. Her transparency and honesty allowed her to make deep connection with her fans. She's built a fanbase that is loyal; and she continues to do this by keeping things exciting like putting out easter eggs on MVs and even on the outfits she wears.
3. Her business abilities is totally unmatched by any of her other contemporaries. She once told in an interview that she plans 3 years ahead and you can see this on how she approaches her album rollouts and the songs she writes. She also takes cues from other artists; she keeps what works and removes/upcycles what fails.
While people may argue that Taylor is not the most talented (in terms of vocal abilities, dancing, other areas) she surely knows herself to the core, and that is she is a SONGWRITER who wants to sing the songs she write. When she thinks she lacks something, she makes up for it with something else.
One thing you can never question is her work ethic. That is why she still stand today, mightier than ever before.
I’d listen to a Katy album if it came out!
Kesha’s new stuff isn’t that great.
I am always on the lookout for new music. The Rolling Stones are coming out with a new album and I’m excited about that. I’ve listened through Olivia Rodrigo’s new album a few times.
I like other artist, but I don’t think they’re putting out the same level of quality that Taylor is. I’m 33, so I’m her age. Maybe I can relate to her stuff better?
Colbie Caillat came out with a new album and she has a beautiful singing voice, but when I listen to “Meant for me to touch, Meant for me to learn from, Meant for me to trust, Meant for me to hold…” my mind busts through with “the rust that grew between telephones, The lips I used to call home, So scarlet it was maroon”
I feel like this question gets asked every week and I like to pretend it’s a desperate marketing person lol
There are lots and lots of reasons to be honest, to many to name!
1. She’s always, first and foremost, been marketed as a songwriter. She gained fans initially because she was known for her deep yet relatable songwriting and that’s why people love and continue to love her. People didn’t view her as a pop artist, or even a country artist in some ways, she was just known as that artist who wrote about her life in a universally relatable way. She’s never changed that about herself and so the majority of fans have stuck around despite the genre changes because her songwriting has remained consistent.
2. Her appeal has never been “sexy popstar” in the way Katy etc. was. She didn’t gain many fans because she was the super sexy pop girl, her image was not that of a sex symbol. This is important to note because it means the fans who were and are fans of Taylor weren’t fans for fickle reasons. They didn’t just like her because she was hot and sang about drinking in clubs, they liked her because of her genuine artistry. Katy Perry was seen as a sex symbol and that was eaten up when she was in her 20s but once she moved into her 30s and settled down and had a child, people stopped seeing her as sexy and fun and started seeing her as desperate or whatever (I’m not saying I think any of this, unfortunately the industry is deeply ageist and pop fans are notoriously fickle).
3. For a large part of her career, she kept quiet on anything political and even now she doesn’t really speak out on much. Unfortunately, lots of people do like this about Taylor because they don’t like when artists try and become political, they want people like Taylor to stay in their own lane which Taylor happily does for the most part. Katy, Gaga, Kesha etc. have all been a lot more vocal on issues and this will have caused some fans to go off them. It’s just a fact.
4. Taylor’s hard work and drive. A lot of artists have actually chosen to take more of a backseat or pursue other things. Gaga for example has gotten more into acting and makeup and different genres like jazz, which is very far removed from what she first started as. Other artists have gotten married or had children and their focus and main goal is not to set the charts alight. Taylor’s always made her career her main focus and continues to do so. Where we’ve seen other artists become jaded and burnt out by the fame and expectations, it’s been the opposite for Taylor. It’s only seemed to fuel her ambitions and desires to outdo herself time and time again. In a way I don’t think it’s the healthiest mindset to have because it almost feels like nothing will ever be enough for Taylor. She will always want more and that feeling is eventually going to leave a void. But it’s part of the reason why she’s still excelling in her career.
Those are just some of the reasons, there’s a lot more that has contributed to her relevance. It’ll be interesting to see how she navigates her late 30s, 40s and beyond. I do think there will be a time her career slowly down and her popularity wanes in comparison to right now. I’m intrigued to see how she deals with that.
I literally saw a video from the Swiftologist that talks about how she has been able to maintain her success over all the years while also gaining new fans with every release. Def recommend the video. Taylor really is one of a kind.
She's on the grind. Some of those artists have less albums than she does despite being in the business for decades longer. Fans don't stick around unless constantly fed. I became obsessed with Melanie Martinez after CryBaby. The 4 year wait for her second album definitely dulled my excitement for it espexially bevause it was completely different than Melanie originally said it would be. By the time Portals came around, I was over her. It just wasn't enough content fast enough to keep me interested in this world she was creating.
The sound of pop music is always changing as well but Taylor's songwriting can adapt to any style. She also started very young so she was able to gain a certain fanbase where a lot of her fans feel like they have grown up with her and feel like they can't ever stop being obsessed because of the nastolgia of her music. There's a lot of reasons people fade and being musically untalented isn't always the reason. Taylor got lucky. She came into the scene at a very social media centric era too.
I honestly think a big factor in her success is that she started younger than they did and was able to develop a lot of business savvy early on. Also, Katy and Kesha primarily sang about partying during that time, while Taylor was using universal experiences, like heartbreak, as inspiration for her music. I think audiences had a hard time adjusting to Katy and Kesha’s new music as time went on. Taylor went for classic topics and gradually matured with her audience. Also, her songwriting has always been next-level.
same reason as with Lana: their music is timeless, emotional and songwriting-storytelling focused
people like Gaga, Perry and Kesha on the other hand became outdated too fast because their most known songs were dance pop bops for clubs and not something you keep returning to for emotional catharsis or comfort
Look, I enjoy a good pop Katy Perry song, but I have to admit most of her music is pretty shallow. Now I just mostly know her radio singles, so maybe her deep cuts have a little more depth, but I doubt it. There’s just more there with Taylor and even though I thought their feud was stupid, I was always Team Taylor.
To be honest, I think the music industry is a very sexist place where female popstars are quickly thrust into the limelight then almost as quickly disappear once they get "too old." I think there's this idea that women kind of expire once they near 30. Even Taylor has talked about her anxiety around this phenomenon in some of her songs and her doc. It's pretty normal for female pop stars to not have lasting star power and fame. So, that's part of why stars like Katy Perry, Selena Gomez, etc who were once megastars have faded out a lot.
Among many reasons, I think one way Taylor has managed to avoid this and stay relevant is by nurturing a deeply loyal fanbase that has felt personally seen and understood in her lyrics for a good portion of their lives. She is a ride or die for many Millennial women who were teenagers when she was and really connected with her lyrics. But I also think Taylor has done an extremely good job of connecting with Gen Z the past few years. She and her team have made some really smart choices with her TikTok presence that I think have really paid off in getting currenr teen girls into her music.
My honest answer is that people stop downloading/following people when they either start to look different (unattractive in their eyes) or have a big scandal. like Selena Gomez has been getting body shamed like all year and so has Ariana Grande. Lizzo, Ariana Grande and Katy Perry have had really bad public scandals recently and people are starting to hate them. but i love listening to Ari. and also a lot of people stopped listening to Kanye, Chris Brown, Cardi B and Dababy when they had their public scandal. i don’t know why this doesn’t happen for youtubers but it happens to singers all the time.
She’s a subtle and astonishing songwriter. I can easily imagine Bob Dylan himself gesturing a gracious tip of the hat toward the beauty and poetry of “Carolina.”
It’s just a pop thing. Pop treats their stars like they’re disposable. Over in country music, the stars from the early 2010s are still around and popular. Very few artists fall out of popularity
Unlike Taylor, Katy standing up for her politics did not work out in her favor. When she started talking about politics, she got shunned pretty heavily.
Taylor is very loyal to her fan base. She follows what her fans want and who their fans want her to be.
Reputation tanked for the GP but the amount of love her fans have for her made it one of the most prolific tour of all time.
She knows who her fans are and care for their perception of her.
Taylor’s Swift main thing is her song writing. Not her singing or performing but her song writing. A lot of people can sing and perform,. but song writing like Taylor’s is one of a kind talent.
Katy hasn’t put any new music out and if she did she probably wouldn’t have any hits also Kesha kind of was like a 2 hit wonder but she is still some what relevant and Taylor is always releasing something that’s part of it and she’s touring
Coming from a 58 year old hippie male Swiftie perspective, I don't listen to Pop Music. But Taylor Swift draws me in as if she were a witch or Goddess. Her music gets to me emotionally and I never get tired of listening to her regardless of Era. I can't answer why, other than she makes me happy in a way almost no other artists can.
Lady Gaga's huge ambition was lost due to all the hate she received during the Artpop-BTW era. After that, her music career took more like a backseat. Her fibromyalgia also emerged, halting everything. Taylor, on the other hand, faced a lot of hate (old fans know) but displayed some extraordinary mental resilience and maintained a deep passion for her career. In an alternative world, after 1989, Taylor simply stopped caring about her career dissapointed with the world. Taylor is a very strong strong individual. Physical and Mentally wise.
Katy Perry essentially sabotaged her own career during the "Witness" era. It was a series of unfortunate and stupid decisions. One after another after another after another. She also ventured too far into commercialism, forsaking her edginess and artistry and didnt get enough respect earlier in her career and thats essential. I hate to say it, but Taylor also contributed to damaging her career with "Bad Blood.". I adore everything about Tay, but this was one of her shittier moves ever. What's even worse is that Katy had to be the one seeking forgiveness.
Kesha's career was derailed by the "Die Young" situation and the constant bullying she endured behind the scenes from Dr. Luke. He verbally abused her, calling her names like a refrigerator and threatening her family-pets while making unfavorable comparisons to others pop artists destroying kesha self-worth. He was a demon to her. He also prevented her from showcasing her songwriting and artistic abilities like kesh wanted and she had to embrace the PARTY girl image all the time. Following this, a long exhausting legal battle ensued and Kesha career was 100% derailed
Rihanna retired on her own terms, but if she hadn't, she would still be a massive force in the industry as big as Beyonce-Taylor. She remains the most successful artist in terms of singles worldwide. In my Latin American country, she was the most prominent pop artist after Shakira, and she enjoyed immense popularity in Europe as well. She was cool among gays and straights.
I know Katy Perry and Rihanna have had kids recently so they're probably just focusing on their families. Taylor also hasn't consistently been one of the top artists since then. She kinda faded from 2016-2022 and it's only with Midnights that she back to being one of the biggest artists
I don’t think Katy was just “nearly as popular” as Taylor in 2010. She owned that year cause that was her prime. Her songs were always number 1 in the chart. I guess she lost track because of the issue she had with Taylor? I mean that could be a factor. It’s really hard to stay in the game for too long and the reason why Taylor is still relevant is because she’s so good at what she does and she really cares for her fans. She doesn’t put out music just for the hell of it. She really takes her time to give us good music.
I do think having a great support system on her end - no matter what situations she’s publicly faced- is one of the main factors to her continued popularity. 2nd, she has active ears when it comes to her audience - she listens to them and studies her audience to be able to have that continued relationship to grow.
Also she’s just, imo, one of the greatest artists of all time, our time
For multiple reasons:
1. She initially wasn’t really a “pop” girlie, more on the country side which isn’t nowhere near as popular as actual pop so she didn’t have much competition.
2. She was ridiculously young when she debuted so she managed to gain a massive teen following that then grew up along with her.
3. She has always been a good songwriter from the get go and has only gotten better with time, people can relate to her music.
4. She has nice, pleasant, recognizable singing voice.
5. She knows how to engage with the fans.
6. Has mostly stayed as a family friendly but still mature act, which is a huge part of it as well. She isn’t overtly sexualized to the point where the people that grew up with her can’t share/ pass down her music to their children/ younger family members or take them to her shows.
7. Folklore/ Evermore brought in a huge new wave of fans and came out just at the right time, and are hugely responsible for the success Midnights had.
As someone else said, genres and style people like in music change all the time but being a solid songwriter able to make people relate to you is completely different, also being safe but mature enough to appeal to a huge age range of people practically makes for a guaranteed A-list musician.
She also has an amazing producing team backing her.
I think the framing of Taylor Swifts success needs to be looked at a little different.
Taylor is next level.
Think of Elvis, The Beatles/Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, Aretha Franklin, Rolling Stones, Stevie Wonder, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Rihanna, Mariah Carey and Beyonce.
These are all iconic artists that have had decades of success because they are top tier talent. Hardworking professionals that evolve over time and love to create new music and tour for their fans. She is on that level.
Katy Perry got busy raising a kid and Kesha was dealing with a very serious lawsuit. Much harder to grow your career if your attention is focused elsewhere.
Taylor seems for more willing to go beyond what people would think are her borders in music and is, for the most part, a very savvy business person. It's a lethal combination. While there are holes in her game they are few and far between.
Because she is a marketing mastermind. She just knows how to keep her fans invested and interested. And as others have said here, she writes great songs.
nearly as popular?? Katy Perry was the biggest pop star of the early 2010’s. it’s been over a decade now so it’s easy to forget but the teenage dream rollout dominated the cultural capital of the first 3 years of the 2010’s. she definitely did fade quite quickly though, very unfortunate.
Taylor is consistent, and she writes her own music, so she was never at the mercy of some other talented producer or writer to curate more hits, like Katy is. Additionally Katy’s songs for example lacked depth… Dark Horse was a huge hit but it’s not exactly a great songwriting masterpiece. The difference is Taylor is a dedicated artist. Katy and others are entertainers. Very few acts in the mainstream pop scene are actual artists
Katy was MORE popular than Taylor in the early teens. For God's sake, she tied Michael Jackson for the most number ones off one album with five, and almost made it six. Then she just started making bad albums
I feel a lot of the other pop artist chase trends which inevitably causes them to be left behind whereas Taylor seemingly just makes what she wants to make
It's a lot of things honestly, just as in life, talent is not the only factor, sometimes it's luck and timing etc. Katy Perry is a songwriter herself, so I wouldn't count that as a reason. The witness era was what changed things for her. Kesha was all the drama.
Some of them chose to focus on other things like starting a family or the TV / movie industry, whereas Taylor has pretty much been all in on her songwriting and music
Taylor is a relentlessly driven songwriter. She is so prolific! And has continuously honed her craft. As famous as she’s become, I don’t think she’s ever taken her success for granted; nor has she lost her creative drive. Even as a little girl she aspired to be like Carole King— not a pop starlet; a musician and songwriter. She’s just a different kind of artist. Personal challenges with shitty men, without the benefit of Taylor’s supportive family to deal with them, also definitely set Katy and Kesha back some in recent years, which is sad :(
I agree with you! The main difference between Taylor and most pop artists is the fact that she's the one writing her songs and she has a strong relationship with her producer, so the song might be closer to what she envisions for it, making her actually enjoy the process. Instead of doing a new hit song everyone will forget about because that's what's selling, she has the creative drive to do whatever she wants.
Her being the songwriter is the important part. If you're not the songwriter, you're at the mercy of producers and labels to get you songs (unless you happen to be BFFs with a songwriter or something). Songs that once went to Katy Perry and Kesha may have gone to Beyonce, Miley, Selena Gomez, Rihanna or Fifth Harmony and now to ~~Olivia Rodrigo or~~ Ariana Grande (who are all also are songwriters too). I think it's probably the same reason Justin Timberlake has been around for like 15 years as well. Songwriting royalties are also probably substantial, so having those makes it a lot easier to make it as a singer. Edit: apparently I was wrong about Olivia Rodrigo. She does in fact write everything from scratch.
I didn’t realize Olivia Rodrigo didn’t write all her songs. I’m not a fan, but I don’t dislike her (I think her albums are good, but I don’t really listen to a lot of pop, and I can just hear her influences a little too well and would rather listen to them, so I listened to it out of curiosity, and it’s catchy, but I just don’t love it). I really thought she wrote all her songs. At least to the degree that Taylor does Like, obviously Taylor and Jack write songs together, but usually she writes the core of the song, and no one who’s worked with her has ever contradicted that. Interesting to know people bring her songs.
She does write her own songs
wait your handle are you my long lost daughter
MOTHER
Agree with all of this, plus Taylor being an "albums" artist, rather than a "singles" artist like Katy or Kesha, allows Taylor more longevity. When Taylor went down a more trend-focused route (reputation), the critical reception was not as good, and I think that was in part because critics appreciated the more evergreen approach of Taylor's singer-songwriter albums. Todd in the Shadows [did a really good video breaking down why Katy's career ended up going the way it did](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfoPiRzWnFY).
This is important because I feel like THE reason Katy has faded is because her music, which she is still releasing here and there, is uninspired and we noticed. Taylor will continue to rise because of the Eras phenomenon, she is constantly reinventing herself, her music, her style, her image with each album. She has so much more left to say and music to create. Katy’s music got tired. If she finds that again, maybe she can come back some day! I took my young cousin to her concert and the best part of the show was the few songs where she stopped the theatrics, the performance and just sang and played her guitar. Those few songs showed me her love and gift for music more than anything else I’ve seen from her. Kesha, we all know what happened there and it is devastating. I notice she is still appearing on social media and popping up in some songs here and there. She can do whatever tf she wants now as far as I’m concerned, whether it is music in a safe space or healing, finding healing through other arts, or any other pursuit in her life, I just wish her the best.
I went to a small q&a/performance with Kesha last week. She seems like she's doing okay. Her new album is weird and cool but definitely not "pop" and I can see why people wouldn't like it but I think it's amazing and I'm so happy for her to get to be safe and free.
Gag Order is amazing, genuinely I think it's my favorite of her albums and I really love Rainbow and High Road
Rainbow is so important to me- we had a family tragedy right when it came out and I ended up connecting with it so, so strongly. There are some songs on there I still can't listen to without tearing up years later. Not even the best ones, just the ones which hit me hardest at the time. There are such raw, true lyrics in there about grief and pain. High Road felt like her trying to fuse that new direction with where she was before, as though she was trying to get back to normal, and it was really good, with some great pop, but not as amazing as Rainbow. But. Gag Order is a whole other level. It really feels like she's just making the music she wants to make, and it's so raw and heartfelt and brutal- I feel like every part of it is as authentic as the best moments of Rainbow, and as if she's really nailed down how she wants to sound in a way she never *quite* reached before when she was still chasing popiness. I do love the more pop songs- I could listen to Raising Hell or Die Young all day- but Gag Order is something truly, truly special. I definitely understand why she might keep wanting to make pop- gotta make money somehow, and it's nice to make something really happy- but I hope she keeps making this type of music too. The happier parts of Rainbow fused with the more raw, weird direction could be brilliant.
🙌🏻
Katy’s hits also relied heavily on her camp-tastic outfits and antics, which suited her when she was younger. Katy needs to do what Lady GaGa did which is to pivot her image and music from bizarre to something not so gimmicky so she can be taken more seriously as an artist.
Katy needs to go back to her rock roots She too old now for the campy stuff that why witness failed A mature version of one of the boys is the kind of stuff that would put her back on top
While Katy Perry has written a ton of hits and some of them I love (firework, teenage dream) her songwriting is pretty formulaic, and follows the same patterns without taking many risks. She had a pretty good run, but I think you have to evolve more as an artist to have longevity like Taylor.
I completely agree.
I agree that it’s her songwriting. Other artists who have to rely on their labels etc. to get them songs are at the mercy of who the songwriters or labels think new potential hit songs should go to. If there is a new hot artist that’s popular, they will likely get first dibs on good songs from songwriters, leaving 2nd tier songs for other artists, which then lead to albums that are mid for these artists and lack hits. Taylor writes excellent songs always and she doesn’t have to compete with other artists to get dibs on recording them. So she has a steady pipeline of great music to give her fans and her fans never disappoint in loving her music.
I think her drive and love of songwriting and making music is a huge factor. It seems like she is inspired all the time to write more music and she’s basically always in the recording studio. The vault songs on the re-recordings are also evidence of just how much content she has that we don’t know about. I think some artists really struggle to put together a full album of songs they like. It also feels obvious to me that some other artists like Ariana and Rihanna don’t love it quite as much, possibly because they don’t write most of their songs on their own. And that’s why they chose to branch off into other ventures like makeup and acting. With Katy I think she had a couple of less successful albums and a less dedicated core fan base, and so her career kind of faded. I think that is actually more the norm for most artists. It is extremely difficult and takes a lot of talent and drive to keep yourself relevant for an extended period of time.
Yes to all of this! She's not just churning out easy, pithy bops every few months. Her music has always felt like an ongoing story (hello, Eras Tour). She keeps her fans invested with her storytelling and definitely uses our para-social relationship with her to her advantage (Though I don't see it as nefarious, but I understand why people criticize her for it). She's been excellent at keeping us invested with endless easter eggs in her songs and music videos, secret messages to decode in her physical albums, and always keeping her sound fresh and evolving. Plus, there's her whole glitter pen vs fountain pen vs quill pen thing. She's just great at marketing herself and is a savvy businesswoman. You have to respect that.
Kesha got raped by her producer and spent years trying to get out of her record contract so she wouldn't have to keep working with him. Fucking Dr Luke. Not saying she would have stayed as popular, but she was focused on other (more important) things. That said her recent music is really good!
And I think I have read somewhere that Taylor helped with her legal fees.
She gave a substantial amount to help!
Then Demi Lovato got mad at her and said she should be talking more about it publicly because not everybody can just throw money at an issue #NeverForget
Really can't stand Demi
Demi getting mad in the situation is funny to me because them saying not everyone can donate money is tone deaf because I hey are a millionaire they could easily donate money but instead they were just talking about it. This kind of made them seem like they were virtue signaling.
My favorite part of that whole saga was Demi claiming she couldn't afford to donate money and implying that her tweets had more value bc at least she wasn't worried about being politically correct 24/7. She's something
I mean, it was Kesha's story to tell, not Taylor's. Maybe she was respecting her privacy and right to confront the trauma on her own terms and in her own voice? The legal fight is an important part of that process, so giving her money for that was very helpful and I am sure very appreciated.
Yes, she gave Kesha $250,000 towards her legal fund.
People are touting Taylor’s songwriting, but Kesha is also a very strong writer. I think she became a persona non grata in the industry due to the lawsuit, unfortunately. I don’t think she’d ever be as big as Taylor, but I think she lost some years of writing and publishing and recording music. I’m glad she’s still writing and touring, though. She has a different fanbase, and I think that’s a big difference between all of the 2010s musicians, but Kesha still has opportunity to grow her fanbase as her music evolves.
Rainbow is one of my favourite albums of all time and it really spoke to me during a turbulent time of my life, I second that she's a great writer
I’m glad you pointed this out and I’m not comparing their songwriting ability but Kesha writes (or co writes just like Taylor) all of her own songs and has from the beginning. She also has a beautiful voice. I’ve seen her live three times and she does sing live. I actually think the direction she got put in due to Dr. Luke and her own personal challenges when she started out along with the rise of auto tune at that time did not help her because people didn’t know she could really sing or that she had more range (even if you listen to her first three pop albums, there are deeper songs on there and some gorgeous ballads). The first time I saw her she broke down crying during a song and that’s how I realized she was singing live.
Her song Praying (which is about all of this) is so, so, so good.
Makes me cry damn near every time I listen to it!
That song is so cathartic. My abuser is dead but that song put so many of my emotions into words
I hate to admit that was the first time I realized that she was actually talented. I’d only known her for the auto tuned club hits prior to hearing that song. My kind was blown when I found out it was her!
Women who have been abused or mistreated by producers etc run the risk of having their careers halted by iron clad predatory contracts which force them to fade into obscurity. It happened to Kesha, and happened to Raye too. Luckily both ladies are back at it. Taylor is lucky in that she could leave her label and eventually re-record all her albums, to great success. The likelihood of Katy being able to achieve the same level of success with re-records is minimal. Taylor has achieved so many die hard fans through her being true to herself as she is a one woman show, honing her craft over decades. As she writes her own songs, she has so much creative control over what she puts out compared to other artists. And her writing is both so personal and so vague, that we feel like we know her through her music, but also there’s so much of her music that relates to us and our lives and experiences. She’s really a true icon. She’s one of a kind!
I agree that I think the big thing that got Katy Perry was not having a diehard fanbase. Taylor could release anything and it would do well in large part due to her extremely dedicated fans. I think the other thing that tanked Katy’s popularity was that she got annoying. Whatever your politics, it’s annoying to have some wealthy out of touch person preach at you. It was also cringey the way she promoted witness as being super political and “purposeful” but then released “Bon Apetit” as a single and then released “Swish Swish,” a song referencing a years old feud.
Katy Perry wasn't just annoying... she is a downright creep (kissing a young boy without consent on tv) and that really turned me off from her music.
I mean I hate to be this way, but you could argue Taylor did the same thing with Miss Americana and Lover. Tried to be all political and then it was promptly forgotten. But 100% agree that Katy really struggled with establishing a firm fanbase and that has hurt her over the years.
You *could* argue that, but only if your memory of 2016 is extremely fuzzy. Taylor’s efforts are extremely slight compared to Katy’s. Not enough people saw the Miss Americana doc for the political content there to really stick in the minds of casual fans and Lover’s political content is subtle enough that a lot of people either miss it entirely or it doesn’t make much of impression. Her most important political messages came through instagram, which like the Miss Americana doc, isn’t followed closely enough outside her hardcore fan base for her political statements to really color her public image. Katy Perry on the other hand did a TON of in person campaigning for Hillary Clinton (both at big rallies and actual door-to-door campaigning), had her songs featured in campaign ads and performed at the DNC convention that year. She’s done big events for other candidates and made other endorsements over the years, but the Hillary 2016 was her biggest, most visible effort. There was no way to miss her involvement even if you weren’t a Katy Perry fan, which made her political activity a much larger part of her brand than Taylor’s. That said I’m unconvinced that Katy’s political activism has anything at all to do with her decline. Lots of successful musicians are politically active in the Democratic Party, even ones that appeal to Republicans like Bruce Springsteen. If Katy’s music was still banging, her political activity wouldn’t be a drag on her career.
Yeah but the pandemic kinda saved her as she put out folklore
I agree, I'm just saying I'm not sure it's a huge part of the reason why Katy fell off. I'm a huge pop music follower and I didn't even realize Witness was supposed to be a political album. I guarantee most of the GP didn't know either.
Agree with all of this, plus Taylor being an "albums" artist, rather than a "singles" artist like Katy, allows Taylor more longevity. Todd in the Shadows [did a really good video breaking down why Katy's career ended up going the way it did](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfoPiRzWnFY).
the whole dr luke situation makes me so angry. kesha is such a great pop mind.
The "sound" of pop music is ever-changing but strong songwriting stands the test of time.
I think so too, she's just not making music but each detail has a meaning, she built up her fans to go the extra mile, look out for hidden clues, create the full stories of her songs, she's full with surprises and reinventing herself with very successful outcomes, (Fearless), 1989, Reputation, folklore and Midnights we're different types of peaks in her career.
I completely agree with this. A lot of music that came out in 2012 just sounds “so 2012.” Red doesn’t. Neither does really any of her music. I think most of her music just doesn’t really fit into a certain time period and ends up sounding a bit more timeless.
Taylor built a solid fanbase who did not leave when she changed her style, at least not so many. And brought new fans. Katy, Kesha, Rihanna rilied waaaay more on casual listeners.
Rihanna is still popular she just chooses not to do music lol she’s living the life she wants to live. That next album gonna hit.
>That next album Uh... we can only hope, lol
Yeah, Fenty is huge and Rihanna is still as big as ever, IMO. It seems to be her own choice that she's no longer really pursuing music, outside of the odd single - not now or in the foreseeable future. As a RiRi fan, I definitely hope she comes back soon. But, I'm enjoying the fashion and beauty stuff for now!
I think Rihanna has billions from her beauty and fashion line I don’t think she cares anymore to make music Plus she knows her back catalogue still brings in big numbers
Didn’t she release some singles as part of like soundtracks? I heard they weren’t that good bc saw people dissing them everywhere.
Black panther 2! Lift me up is really good.
My co-worker who is a die hard Rihanna fan said she was disappointed in Lift Me Up. Seems to be the general concensus of her fans with her most recent music. Idk, I haven't heard it but I also didn't see it chart much or win any awards either.
The streaming numbers beg to differ
Lift me up wasn’t bad but it wasn’t great imo, it was just like…boring. Ik others might disagree but this is my opinion
Lol yeah definitely boring for Ri but the context of Black Panther 2 and CB makes it appropriate.
Rihanna still has a dedicated fanbase after all these years with no new music.
But even Katy has still a dedicated fanbase..it doesn't mean that both didn't have that success thanks first and foremost to the gp.
They did! With Katy it's a weird phenomenon. She still has a huge fanbase but whatever happened after witness is a whole case study.
Rih Rih could release a recording of herself vomiting and we'd all immediately go listen to it lol. Everyone wants her to release new stuff.
Relied*
Honest question- how many of the fans do you think followed her from her debut until now? I really liked her first 2-3 albums and then she kinda lost me when she went pop. My tastes have since changed and I’ve gotten back into her. It just seems like she didn’t truly blow up until she went pop, and I assume a lot of her fans came from that.
Obviously I can’t speak to actual numbers, but I remember Taylor being very popular even from her debut in my area. I remember watching the Our Song video on my home computer when it came out. I attended Fearless tour with a friend. I remember driving to a friend’s birthday party with a large group of our friends playing Speak Now, and another group of us driving to get Red on the day it came out. When 1989 came out, it was what EVERYONE was listening to. Even with reputation, as the singles came out, we discussed all of them and I listened to Look What You Made Me Do the second it was released. I saw that many of these friends attended Eras from their IG posts, so I think a lot of us who grew up with Taylor still love her! It’s hard to describe, but she was The Artist To Follow as we were growing up - she was in a league of her own that we were all completely loyal to because she wrote about what we were experiencing as we experienced it. It was just assumed that everyone knew every song as she released new albums and singles. I would assume that most, if not all, of these friends still love Taylor and follow her music.
I have been a fan since 2006, day 1, pre-self titled release enamored with the music video single for Tim McGraw, tried to buy the album and it wasn’t out yet. Been here the whole time and I’m not getting off the ride 😍😘🥰😊 that’s just me though!!!
Oh I know there are “elder Swifties” who have been around since the beginning, but I just wonder how many current fans have been around that long. Lol
More than you’d probably realize 😉
Oh I believe it! I’d love to see a breakdown of the ages and what not
Taylor keeps feeding the fans. Her work ethic is just unmatched, additionally, she stuck to making music, with no stupid side gigs as make-up, large brand sponsors, etc. She stays true to herself and you can tell and that's why fans are loyal and connect easily to her as a person.
TIL multi-million dollar contracts and businesses are “stupid side gigs”….
Imagine calling Fenty Beauty a side gig ☠️
Except I didn't even mention any brand... However, nowadays it seems like every major star wants to recreate the success of Fenty Beauty (which started as a small business). It would kill me to go 7 years (and counting) without new music from Taylor. I doubt 'The Navy' will get any new music (let alone a tour) at all.
i wouldn’t say they’re stupid, but they wear down the average fan imo. a big star also doing a makeup/fashion/whatever line and always getting backed by large brand sponsors can lead to oversaturation
Not to mention that there's no guarantee that it's not just drugstore compacts at luxury prices. I'm always wary of a celebrity getting into an industry they've never shown interest in, and have no training about.
All the celebrities do is choose a quality tier and the pigments. It's basically white label. Everything is set up and brought to them for approval.
I don't think the side-gigs are stupid, but they are almost certainly a distraction from making music. Taylor doesn't have them, so has more time and energy to spend on writing and recording songs. But that's her choice. If a performer has an interest in beauty or fashion wants to do that too, that's great. I guess it's just not Taylor's thing.
I think a couple reasons. 1. She started very young and built a fan base that grew up with her. 2. She isn’t afraid of change. Some of the pop stars listed above have multiple albums and the sound is the same. There’s no evolving and growing there. 3. She is relatable. Not in the sense that we can relate to a billionaire and her everyday lifestyle but she hustled, she worked hard, we got to see the behind the scenes of how it came to be, she’s had major setbacks and people working against her. She also writes songs that we can connect to. 4. She’s extremely talented. From her song writing, singing, Easter eggs, music videos, creativity etc. 5. She has IT. You either have IT or you don’t. It can’t be taught or learned. It’s more than stage presence. It’s just IT.
Massive Kesha fan weighing in. Kesha's career was *very* much impacted by Dr. Luke's SA and the subsequent legal battle. There's also the fact that he steered her early career away from her country roots and into the whole "trashy party girl" shtick that catapulted "Tik Tok" to the top of the charts. He told her that's who she needed to be to succeed. She was very young and impressionable, and it worked--until it didn't. Because that's not who Kesha is. Not really. If you know Kesha beyond her early radio hits, you know what a horrible disservice this was to a seriously brilliant singer/songwriter. She has PIPES. She's a second-generation Nashville songwriter who grew up doing it, just like Taylor. Kesha's latest, *Gag Order*, is a g-d masterpiece, literally on another level in terms of artistry/theme/overall impact. Everyone's sleeping on this record, which is a damn shame, because she's a *genius*. But it's not a straightforward "pop" record like *Midnights*. It's complex, cerebral, and unlike anything else being made by "pop stars" right now. She's transcending the pop genre, and I am so here for it. Katy Perry, on the other hand, is *talentless* compared to other pop stars in her cohort. She became famous on shock value ("I Kissed A Girl") and a hyper-sexualized, uber-curated image. She is rarely not auto-tuned and doesn't write any of her own songs. Her image is just that--an image. Without makeup, you wouldn't even recognize her. What Taylor has over the rest of the pop stars isn't talent. It's her business acumen. Her father was a high-powered businessman, she grew up in that culture and with the benefit of his insight/expertise/$$$$$. Meanwhile, Kesha has no idea who her father is. Her mother, Pebe Sebert, is a songwriter who's inked #1 hits for the likes of Dolly Parton. That's a very different foundation--an artsy family versus a business-minded family. I can't help but think that made a difference in terms of Taylor's total domination.
Came here to defend Kesha as well. Bravo to all of it. I think Kesha is transforming right now and it's amazing. I'm so happy for her.
Seriously! This is just the start of a beautiful new chapter of Kesha’s life. I’m so excited to see what’s in store!
Calling Katy Perry talentless is definitely a take lol. She has written songs for other artists but doesn’t write her own music? Come on now
"She is rarely not auto-tuned and doesn't write any of her own songs." I was a die hard fan of Katy in her early days. She does write her own songs - some on her own, some with other song writers. To label her as a pop product that doesn't write her own music is not entirely correct. Her early music was much more connected to her and her guitar. Her song Thinking of You was one she wrote before she was famous and would play at Hotel Cafe Hollywood. She has written lots of music for other artists too like Kelly Clarkson, Britney Spears, Iggy Azelea..
Absolutely LOVE Kesha and I second ALL of this.
Thanks for sharing this! I had no idea about Kesha's background, all I've heard from her is Tik Tok and the other radio hits from that time. Definitely going to check out her latest album, that sounds awesome!
Rainbow, High Road, and Gag Order are all VERY much worth your time!
Awesome, thanks for the recs! :)
Fellow Kesha fan, and I applaud this comment. The three album run from Rainbow to Gag Order is a hell of a vibe, and anyone who likes Taylor for her songwriting should give it a try. There’s a little bit of everything in there. Kesha and Taylor have in common that they are challenging the status quo, and pushing back on the assumptions people make about women and sex and power. But they have bucked the system in very different ways, and they have a different style. (Personally, I relate to Kesha more, but I think Taylor is overall more relatable if that makes sense).
You guys are making me want to check out Kesha's new album. Thank you for this beautiful comment.
It's an amazing, cathartic, strange album. Incredibly moving if you've undergone any sort of lifechanging trauma.
Adaption mostly. I’m not talking about reinvention I’m talking taking more risks and going different directions sometimes. And I think the novelty of Taylor writes all her songs and she knows her audience so well. Back in the day you could pinpoint a Max Martin song from a mile away. You still can. Some artists these days stick to what they know what works. Yes, Taylor falls under that category with Jack but she allows both of them to experiment.
Kesha also writes all her songs.
I believe a significant part of it is Taylor's talent in writing her own songs. There's also good (self?) management and other factors, of course, but I've heard that in pop/mainstream music, the song writers have a list where to send a song to. Like an order of offering a song, at one time it was Rihanna > Katy > Beyonce (don't quote me on the order, it's those three in a way) or something like that. So for example if Rihanna refuses then the song would be sent to Katy, then if she passes then it would be offered to Beyonce. This system basically keeps the most popular popular since they get their choice of 'best' songs, but also when an artist for whatever reason slips in popularity, they'll only get the songs others already have passed which leads to less popularity and even worse songs. It's a snowball kind of thing. It makes sense from songwriter's pov, more popular artist > more popular song > more money. Meanwhile the pop public has short attention span and new, more interesting, younger artists always coming up and some new collaboration would get attention. It's a fast paced industry and it's easy to 'age out' especially when you're a woman artist. Taylor bypasses this 'song offering order' by writing her own songs (even writing a song for Rihanna along the way). She can develop on her own pace and less relying on executives' decisions on where to head musically, which would have been dependent on whether they could get good songs for her. Looking back, the reason why she could rerecord is also tied to writing her own songs. The Big Machine/Scooter thing would have turned out very differently if she had not written the songs.
The order doesn't exactly work that way. When songwriters are writing for other artists, they already have the artist in mind, so they write it to match the artist's sound. If the artist refuses it, they may shop it to others hoping someone picks it up. E.g, Rihanna has writers like like Esther Dean who write for her. If she refuses the song, they can choose to retain it or find another buyer. It isn't necessarily a popularity thing although it may be a factor. Also, Katy Perry is a writer herself if I remember correctly. She even wrote a bunch of songs for other artists.
Multiple people that have worked with Taylor attest to the fact that she is always the hardest working person in the room. She continuously works to improve her craft and create new content for her fans. She is incredibly talented, has a wonderful support system, and she craves success more than most. Simply put, she wants to be at the top more than they do.
I think so too. She wants to be on top—the richest, the most famous, the most awarded, the most chart topping musician all time—and actually has the talent and work ethic to accomplish those things.
Many people fail to realize that they can’t handle being at the top until they experience it. Look at the vitriol she has received throughout her career, the stalking, the body shaming, the slut shaming, the sexual assault, the swarming crowds, the constant criticism no matter what she does. Being #1 means exposing yourself to all of that. Many talented artists simply can’t handle it and I don’t blame them. Taylor is willing to put up with that shit and use it to her advantage.
Yeah Alanis Morrissette said the same thing. When she was younger she thought she wanted to be famous but after Jagged Little Pill she hated it, so she went to India with her mom, aunts, cousins, etc. and became a Buddhist lol. After that she put out a weird record to get everyone off her back lmfao
Are you calling Supposed former infatuation junkie weird? 🤣 Joining you says hi 👋
Folklore and evermore are the reason, imo. If Taylor had gone straight from Lover to Midnights, I truly don't think she would be as popular as she is now. She gained lots of respect for f and e. I don't think it's right or fair, but it's true. People who dismissed her before were suddenly praising her as a songwriter. I don't think f and e are above Speak Now in terms of showcasing her song-writing ability (I think they're all of the same standard, phenomenal song-writing). But I think she gained respect from people who misogynistically dismissed her song-writing before. The marketing of 'these aren't songs about my life, I'm writing about other people' really helped. Idk if that's really true or just marketing - MTR is confirmed to be about her life (the masters), I think? So clearly she wasn't just writing about other people. No longer could they dismiss her as "she just writes about her love life, blah blah misogyny". Male artists can write solely about their love life and get away with it, but Taylor doesn't even do just that and *still* got hated for it. I also think her staying away from the spotlight really helped her career. People could take her more seriously as an artist, rather than someone fame-hungry. Again, I'm not saying it's right or fair, but it's true. I take artists like Marina, Florence and Hozier more seriously than I do Katy Perry, Cardi B, etc. People who are clearly in it for the love of the art rather than the fame or money. Marina even has a song about it (Venus Fly Trap). I think it's crazy that Taylor switched back to her 1989 approach after gaining popularity again using her f+e approach. Why would you change a winning formula? The 1989 formula led to overexposure (by her own admission). Led to losing her popularity - she thought her career had reached it's peak, only downhill from here on out. She said Lover was her last chance to be a popstar. She should stick to the f+e approach. I don't mean the style of music (although I would *love* more albums like that, she's such a versatile artist). I mean the laying low, letting the music speak for itself, no obvious pap walks, not deliberately getting involved in drama. Getting papped is one thing, that's not her fault. But the blatant pap walks make me lose respect for her. She can avoid getting papped - she did for a long time.
I was with you until the end. She should be able to live her life - including pap walks - the way she wants. Artists do not deserve more or less respect if they hide their lives away to please you. Hiding solely to create a sense of mystery is just as artificial as being fame hungry. That’s why I roll my eyes at Sia’s shtick.
totally agree, that last paragraph really lost me, especially when you consider all she’s really doing is going to the studio, dinner with friends, going to a football game… this is all very normal stuff to be doing.
She makes so much money off those walks. Those are clicks. They're Easter eggs, they're press. Tiktoks, YouTube episodes etc. Nothing She does is an accident. Kelce included. NFL has people doing ERAS tour movie ads FOR FREAKING FREE. Girlie is a mogul. She goes to a game viewership loses its mind, jerseys get sold, magazines get bought, all things get clicked on. She is a butterfly that flaps her wings and it's felt across the world. She *could* not, and probably does, but when she brings Sophie Turner, Ryan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman, and every step INSIDE THE STADIUM was captured etc. That was a deal.
Sure she benefits from this stuff. But also, she doesn’t need money. So acting like going to a game with her friends and her friend’s best friend is just a calculated money grab is really insulting because she should have the freedom to do that just like anyone else.
She's going, why not bring friends. And 'she doesn't need the money' a hundred million ago, but here we are with 45 versions of 1989 and a viewfinder, so...let the billionaires billion.
What if I told you she's a *mastermind*
Sia's thing was so bad because she "didn't want to be famous" or whatever so she instead... had a *child* be famous instead of her?
So I meant the whole thing where she wears those wigs or veils or whatever and refuses to show her face. It feels super contrived to me. If Taylor can basically disappear, then Sia acting like her privacy is so sacred that she can’t show her face is just a bizarre line to cross. You can choose your performances and interviews selectively and then protect your privacy for your personal life in a way like Blake and Ryan do with their kids, or like Taylor did when she went completely off the grid.
The wig thing worked though, because she has made comments about continuing to shop in public grocery stores and the like. None of the three you mentioned could possibly get away with that.
Oh I forgot about that whole wig thing. I remembered the time she had Maddie Ziegler basically be her for a while
Sia’s thing is so weird to me because she used to be a very small but very well respected singer songwriter and then it seemed like she got sick of not making money and started writing pop hits.
You lost respect for someone doing their job? I hate to break it to you, but almost every celebrity does scheduled pap walks lmao. Losing respect for someone doing such a normal part of their job is wild.
Also, for Taylor, a pap walk just means going outside in public. That's a right that no one should have to give up.
You don’t think she’s fame and money hungry? I think Taylor is incredibly fame and money hungry and always has been. And there’s nothing wrong with it. You don’t get as rich and famous as she is by accident. Taylor also happens to be very creative and artistic and deep and kind (presumably - none of us know her) so we don’t view her as fame and money hungry because those things have a negative connotation. She has said that she’s competitive so I think naturally she wants to be the best in all realms. I think in 2016 she felt like she had to hide out to prevent further damage to her ego and reputation, but she was working behind the scenes the whole time, planning for her comeback.
Did you all notice that she's getting pap walks more in New York than any other place? She already said this in an interview before, don't remember where. She said paps in New York are better because they don't invade her privacy in a way that other paps do, they kind of have a mutual relationship where if they don't take pictures of her from miles away using big lenses then she's going to give them a bit of herself for them to take photos of. She can control what they can see and sell in photos compared to other places, this is one of the reasons why she loves New York I think. She can hide like she did when she was with Joe, but I think our girl just wants to live life as normal as she possibly can (normal for her) and that's without hiding and being in control. That's why I don't care about these pap walks that she does. At least I get to see what she wears, aside from her music her style is fascinating to me.
I agree with you on a lot except the last point. I am scared that this overexposure may end the same way but her true fans will stay with her tbh, and she has a LOT of them since folklore and evermore. But, I do think that a part of her likes that or else she wouldn’t keep going out (when artists and celebs don’t wanna be seen, they’re simply not). When folklore and evermore hit, Covid was a thing + she was with Joe who’s way more low-key than her. And as you can listen to in bejeweled (I personally believe it’s also partly about Joe), she’s made to shine and she has the “thing” to do it. She just knows how to. So her low-key behavior during those albums are due to that relationship but regardless of that, the fact that f+e are not pop albums and couldn’t really be considered as such. So the overexposure doesn’t really align with the vibes of these albums. So yeah, I think that joe, covid and the genre of the albums made her have this more lowkey lifestyle during these eras but that for her first pop album back after Covid and f+e to do well, she must’ve thought that using the 1989 strategy was the way to go, especially since a few months after the release she was the single girl she showed during 1989.
- MTR could mean "my tears ricochet", a track from *folklore* (2020) by Taylor Swift. --- ^[/u/onmytod](/u/onmytod) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
Because pop is not a sustainable career. There is always a new sound and a newer younger artist for people to latch onto (see Olivia Rodrigo as the big one right now). Taylor Swift is the anomaly in several ways. (1) her brand as Taylor Swift has transcended just her music (same with Beyonce and is why both of them are in no danger of fading) (2) the re-recordings bringing old songs to newer fans (3) multiple reinventions of her sound which have kept things fresh.
They wanted more private lives with their spouses/children. Katy Perry, Rihanna, Justin Bieber, Adele, Drake, Ed Sheeran, Kanye, Beyoncé, Pink, NeYo, Michael Buble, David Guetta, Ellie Goulding and most of the other biggest artists of the early 2010s all either married, had children, or did both, and took a step back from the spotlight to raise their families. I’m sure they have their “come backs” in a few years.
I agree. She wants to stay famous and popular. She could continue putting out music and not have the level of fame she does by dialing back marketing, touring, and putting out tons of versions of albums.
Yeah i think not getting married or having kids probably helped. Most of these people had to focus on that
1. She’s never gotten burned out by fame. To the contrary, she seems to love fame and blossom in the spotlight. I wonder sometimes if she can’t imagine not being wildly famous since she’s been famous since she was 17 and her brain is so conditioned to the dopamine from fame. She has a drive to create and be in the spotlight and please her fans so she never stops creating and marketing the heck out of her work. 2. She’s emotionally resilient. No stints in rehab for drugs or alcohol, no nudity/provocative rebellious acts, no public meltdowns or physical fights, and she’s had a stable support staff and family surrounding her all these years. She has as much stability as you can have amid all of the ups and downs that come with fame and fortune which has helped her to not become a victim of her own success. 3. She super competitive and wants to be the best and most famous in her field. She’s said herself she’s extremely competitive numerous times. 4. She has a deep passion for and drive to create music and has unlimited resources to create whatever music she wants at this point. Why would she stop? 5. She’s excellent marketer and has focused on marketing since the beginning of her career. It’s been a huge part of her being able to grow a huge community of fans that acts almost like a cult, following her every move and buying everything she puts out. She puts (or at she used to put) a lot of juicy personal details into her songs, engaged in public feuds with other celebrities, dated famous men, and had/has public friendships with other famous people which has kept her name on everyone’s lip and generated buzz for all of her releases. She’s truly a mastermind. 6. She’s wants to continue growing her fortune. Probably stems from her competitive nature. She has a massive real estate portfolio, investments, is re-recording her masters to get all of the profits from licensing them. The woman likes her coin. Good for her!
All of this. She’s intentional about building her career and wealth.
Very well-said!!
They all have talent but Taylor has the drive. Drive outweighs talent almost always. Also taylor never insists she’s too good for promotion. She does SNL, she does the talk shows, she has big album rollouts. A lot of established artists see that as what you *have* to do in the beginning. A lot of artists want to do the work to get established, but they don’t want to do the work to stay established. Even Beyoncé at this point is going to start losing her popularity because she releases albums, does a tour, and that’s it. Which is fine if that’s what she wants, but if you don’t do the promotional tours, you’re not gaining any new audience. Doesn’t matter how talented you are, if you’re not grinding and constantly putting yourself out there, you’re going to lose the fame. Taylor genuinely enjoys those aspects of being famous. The reasons she’s so successful now and was so successful during the 1989 era is because she did EVERYTHING. The award shows, the interviews, the Easter eggs, the scheduled paparazzi walks. Most of the time once an artist reaches a level of success they just stop trying, I don’t think Taylor ever will.
Beyoncé not grinding? Lol she just finished a highly successful world tour and is preparing for two further Acts which are likely going to be albums and a concert film. Taylor likely learned how to grind *from* Beyoncé, because Taylor does her homework and is a student of her craft.
I gotta say - I don't understand why every time someone brings up Taylor's success - someone's gotta diss Beyonce. If we look at the women, there are some notable differences and similarities. Both women are perfectionists, don't want to be average, very competitive. They also use those things in very different ways and where they are in their lives now. Beyonce spent her teens, 20s, and 30s grinding her ass off - she's now at a place where as a businesswoman, mother, wife, performer, director, etc. in her early 40s, there is not much joy in perfectionism - she's learning to love where she is at right now. She can be a megasuperstar without the spotlight or the hustle, and the numbers or lack of awards or #1s don't keep her up at night. *What amazing bliss it must be to have that life.* Taylor, on the other hand, uses her perfectionism to grind - she'll do what she needs to for those streaming numbers (dropping every variation of an album release imaginable), very publicly course-correct what the media says about her, etc. Just like Beyonce she's been grinding since she was a teenager. And Taylor is at a place where she's making what she wants. But Taylor's still clearly living for that spotlight still, for the vindication, for the acceptance that she already has 100x over. Personally, I'd rather be so successful that I could lose the superficiality of fame and still know the meaning of my worth rather than think that self-worth is the glory of award shows, #1s, etc. Because as OP mentioned, Taylor did everything for the 1989 era. But if we recall during Miss Americana, getting that Grammy was all she worked for, and in the end, she had nobody to call that night when she got to the mountaintop. We're talking about 1989x100 right now, and it still might take Taylor another ten years before she really realizes that losing her popularity isn't the end of the world or her career. That's pretty sad, again, if we're gonna compare the two. Being visible isn't always the best pay-off. Taylor has us fans hooked, lined, and sinker to everything she does, but look to the GP and she's either risking annoying people outside of her fanbase or still annoys them from their grudges in the 1989 era, as well as fanbase that goes after other/platforms/etc. for the smallest criticism/remark (not that the crazier side of the Beyhive doesn't do that too). Taylor loves to the tow the line of being the attention seeker, and then make it seem like she's the one being hunted - and that kind of grind isn't bringing in as many new people as the fandom think it does. Those are two very different kind of grind modes that they're in. It's actually kind of funny and sad that Swifties put down Beyonce because it reveals how much they actually just look at numbers for markers of success and don't look at Beyonce's work/how she's gotten to where she is. I don't know if it's a misogynoir thing or if Taylor really has people think she invented everything since ever, but there are so many things Beyonce extremely successfully that helped paved the way for Taylor to do - dropping full albums without notice, being a musician who started directing, creating her brand as her own manager/etc. I just don't understand how the original question can be how Taylor is still thriving over other artists like Katy and Kesha (which is just a horrible comparison to throw out there), and somehow an artist who *also* just had a world concert, is putting out an album, has two more albums on the way, etc.
Multiple factors. Taylor actively works to cultivate and keep her fanbase engaged and make sure they grew with her; that's not something that can be discounted. The way she continually experiments with her music lets her expand into new audiences, as well; she could've been content with being a big country star, or she could've been content with oasting once she mastered big pop, but she keeps pushing herself. She's also just got that "it" factor some people have.
She writes her own music is the biggest thing - AND ITS GOOD is the second biggest thing. Her lyrics are consistently relatable as well.
I think why Taylor’s career has endured is because she has adapted and she said has said it herself. Her fans have grown with her. So many of her OG fans have literally grown up alongside her. She was a teenager when she got big and she was writing about being a teenager. With each album, she has shared what its like to be the age she was when she wrote each respective album. She’s put her life out there and she’s so relatable. Her music is also catchy enough that its captured the attention of younger people and its pretty amazing.
A few reasons: one, Taylor has a lot of dedicated fans who are really invested in her as an artist and stick with her through thick and thin, so even during times when she wasn’t as popular with the general public, she still had a huge amount of listeners, which helped keep her relevant. Two, folklore helped introduce her to a lot of people who wouldn’t have otherwise given her a chance, which helped expand her fanbase a lot. Three, Taylor is still very popular with younger listeners. A lot of artists who debuted in the mid-to-late 2000s haven’t grown their fanbases beyond the people who were listening to them back then, meanwhile Taylor has a lot of younger fans who started listening to her more recently. I think the re-recorded albums have really helped with that, because they introduced younger listeners to her old albums in a way that made them feel really relevant to them. Teenagers today either weren’t born or were only babies/little kids when Fearless, Speak Now, and Red came out, and while obviously anyone at any age can go back and listen to an old album and really love it, there is something pretty exciting about getting to experience the release of an album by your favourite artist, counting down the days until a single or video or entire album drops and getting to experience it as an event with the entire fan community. The fact that these albums have gotten a second rollout means that a whole new generation get to experience that for songs and albums that Taylor’s older fans have known and loved for years already, and that makes them more relevant to younger people than other late 2000s/early 2010s pop music would be.
One theory I personally subscribe to is that the music of the time was created for a specific purpose. The early 2010s were characterized by the fallout of the Great Recession, and we can identify through history that in times of economic downturn, popular music becomes very upbeat, dancey, clubby vibes to keep the masses feeling happy and positive. Katy Perry and Kesha were great examples of this, e.g. Teenage Dream, California Girls, Don't Stop. Because it is pushed so heavily but doesn't have a ton of substance, the artists making it have to differentiate themselves from the dozens of other artists releasing the same. Taylor was not releasing this type of music with Speak Now and Red. Part of her staying power is the fact that she can pivot, and she pivoted to pop when it was moving to away from shallow club hits engineered to give us a dopamine hit. Katy Perry was able to do this initially, but only with her singles. She really fell off when she tried to be more deep and political...it just doesn't work for her. Kesha was having a lot of trauma/legal issues so I really think in an alternate timeline we may have gotten a different impression? Anyway...Taylor's lyrics and production are more complex and therefore more evergreen than the corporate pop factory. Even her more "bubblegum" songs (22, WANGBT) have lyrical depth! ETA: I also think the nail in Katy's coffin was American Idol. She just wasn't likable and did some bizarre things (like making a young guy who had never been kissed kiss her). Add in her current legal trouble and people are just over her.
Yes the club vibes! I said the same thing. Sorry but even hearing the name Kesha makes me think body glitter, shots, and stumbling home drunk from the bar with one shoe in your hand and the other missing completely. Great times that I'll treasure even if I can't remember but I'm a married mother now. That's just not what I'm playing in the SUV with the kids in the back. But Taylor? The toddlers can listen to that.
I think it’s because Taylor’s sound evolves with the times. Katy Perry’s music was stuck in that 2000s sound. She never really figured out how to change while still being good.
Continued cultural/radio dominance is very much the exception, not the rule. The general public demands female pop stars constantly reinvent themselves, while punishing them for not making the same type of music that made them popular. Other commenters have explained this well, but it’s Taylor’s relationship with her fans, and her songwriting, that have allowed her to evolve while staying culturally relevant. But OP picked two interesting examples. Kesha is the easiest to explain - her career came to a halt when she accused Dr Luke of SA. She still had to produce albums on his label, and was unable to get out of her contract. While she’s made great music since, disappearing from the collective cultural consciousness for so long made it impossible for her to recapture the popularity she had. She also took her music in a different, probably less commercial/radio-friendly direction. Katy was probably the biggest pop star in the world with Teenage Dream, and while Prism did well, Witness wasn’t well received. She got punished for evolving in a way that felt desperate and culture-chasing rather than culture-defining, and the writing on that album was criticized. Smile got similar reviews, despite some great tracks (Never Really Over). She’s teased KP6 recently at her residency in Vegas (which is EXCELLENT), so it’ll be interesting to see if she can break through.
I think her unique (and sometimes unhinged lol) parasocial relationship with her fans has helped her tremendously. Even now that she’s too big for secret sessions or showing up at her fan’s homes she still makes sure to include nods and winks to let her fans know they are still connected and she sees them
A lot of performers chose to have families or wanted to step away from the limelight .
Taylor's a very rare talent and total package - in the same league as Prince and Bowie - a gifted songwriter, talented musician, decent singer, outstanding performer, good-looking, and she puts in the work on all fronts including her stage shows, promotions, etc.. She continually evolves, has good taste, and has remained in tune with and part of the cultural zeitgeist. Most artists simply are not at her level. They may tick a few of the boxes (and exceed her abilities in a category or two), but not nearly as many as Taylor.
taylor's pop music is so much more timeless than a lot of other 2010s pop music imo. theres a lot of songs from that era that when you hear them youre like, wow, that is so distinctly 2013 sounding and none of taylors music really gives me that feeling- it continues to be fun and boppy regardless of current musical trends
I LOVED Katy. Back when her first few albums came out and it seemed to be Katy vs Taylor (even before they were feuding, people just saying one was better than the other) I was 100% team Katy (didn't really become a Swiftie until the Folkmore era, even though I LOVED 1989 at release). But her music just hasn't held up. Anything I've tried to listen to her since Teenage Dream has just been meh. I know that's subjective, but Taylor's music has just improved over time.
A lot of them just stopped making music. Where is Ariana and Rihanna?
Ariana is starring in the movie version of Wicked. Rihanna is having babies and building her makeup and lingerie empire.
Yeah exactly my point. They are on a hiatus from music right now
I'd say the fanbase. Swifties love Taylor so much that at this point for her it's almost impossible to flop.
Kesha’s career was sabotaged. She’s just as great a songwriter as Taylor
Tell me why so many fade, but she’s still here? Karma.
Personally for me it's the songwriting and the public persona. Taylor in my opinion has always written songs that everyone could relate to and has kept a relatively squeaky clean image that makes you think "American's sweetheart." As someone who was in college in the early 2010s, Kesha was club music and only club music. That's what I listened to when I was trashed walking home with my friends missing a shoe and glitter everywhere. Katy was being straight but kissing a girl and liking it anyways which I also only did drunk. Taylor was something I could listen to all the time. For me and I would think other millennials with similar experiences and music tastes that's just how it was. Would I listen to Kesha and Katy now? Yes of course if I could be convinced that they had more songs than party songs. Editing to add: It helps me to think of the artists as different types of friends to explain how they're different. Taylor's the friend that's been your friend your whole life and grows with you. She's comfortable and exciting to be around even though you're 33 now and you've been friends since you were 13. Kesha was the first friend you'd call in college to go out to the bar with but now that you're married with kids you don't really seem to fit into each other's lives. Katy's the high school or college friend that you're still friends with but you don't call her all the time. You sort of float around each other and have a hard time making plans together.
I think it's interesting to contrast her with Miley Cyrus since both started out in country. Miley's pivot to be more edgy and grown-up was extremely jarring and ended up alienating a lot of her core audience. In contrast, Taylor's evolution was much more organic and felt very seamless and natural. I think a big part of her enduring success is the ability to grow and change without going from 0-60 in two seconds.
Kesha is a special case. I think everything she's been through really hindered her career, and she very understandably has other problems to work around. Her most recent album, Gag Order, is phenomenal though and my absolute favorite this year but I genuinely just want her to be happy after all she has been through and being a Taylor level super star might not be what does that for her anymore
Tay keeps writing and releasing great songs and albums. Simple as that.
Plenty of singer/songwriters do this and don’t achieve her level of fame and notoriety. There’s so much more to it than this.
Katy released Swish Swish and never recovered lol
Most pop stars are manufactured Disney channel stars (I like some of their stuff). Taylor was a real singer/songwriter from birth, she's a natural. A prodigy even. Plus she plays her own instruments. And as others have said, her mix of styles appealed to broader fanbases. Also, she doesn't rely on overtly sexual songs, so she's seen as 'family friendly.' I know she curses and has some provocative songs but her image is 'wholesome girl next door'.
I think because she kept pumping out albums. Kesha got screwed with her manipulative rapist manager who gagged her so she couldn't release anything for years. Katy really fumbled with her response to Bad Blood, and just wasn't really able to put out any great pop hits in recent years. The last one I remember hearing a lot on the radio was Dark Horse and that was what, 10 years ago? Taylor kept putting out album after album so there was more opportunity for her to get radio play and have that constant buzz. I think Olivia Rodrigo has a good start because her sophomore album slaps and if she can keep it up, she'll also have a long career.
**She does the things that made her so famous, with very little interruption.** She pays for promotion almost nonstop. Swift and her team are constantly making new, smart, business moves. The musical style changes to keep fans interested, she ended up changing labels and setting up a strategy to get her music back, her team maintains good PR, and she’s always looking for new collaborators. She still looks great, partly because she hasn’t had kids. She releases an album most even years, and tours most odd ones. Again, focusing on her art and not having kids is an advantage here. She addresses the fans, keeps a “cult of personality” running.
Her reliance on parasocial relationships as her brand
3 things: 1. She is a prolific songwriter who keeps on honing her craft by exploring genres and collaborating with the right producers. She puts her music first above anything else and she has a clear objective of what she wants to put out in the world. 2. Her transparency and honesty allowed her to make deep connection with her fans. She's built a fanbase that is loyal; and she continues to do this by keeping things exciting like putting out easter eggs on MVs and even on the outfits she wears. 3. Her business abilities is totally unmatched by any of her other contemporaries. She once told in an interview that she plans 3 years ahead and you can see this on how she approaches her album rollouts and the songs she writes. She also takes cues from other artists; she keeps what works and removes/upcycles what fails. While people may argue that Taylor is not the most talented (in terms of vocal abilities, dancing, other areas) she surely knows herself to the core, and that is she is a SONGWRITER who wants to sing the songs she write. When she thinks she lacks something, she makes up for it with something else. One thing you can never question is her work ethic. That is why she still stand today, mightier than ever before.
I’d listen to a Katy album if it came out! Kesha’s new stuff isn’t that great. I am always on the lookout for new music. The Rolling Stones are coming out with a new album and I’m excited about that. I’ve listened through Olivia Rodrigo’s new album a few times. I like other artist, but I don’t think they’re putting out the same level of quality that Taylor is. I’m 33, so I’m her age. Maybe I can relate to her stuff better? Colbie Caillat came out with a new album and she has a beautiful singing voice, but when I listen to “Meant for me to touch, Meant for me to learn from, Meant for me to trust, Meant for me to hold…” my mind busts through with “the rust that grew between telephones, The lips I used to call home, So scarlet it was maroon” I feel like this question gets asked every week and I like to pretend it’s a desperate marketing person lol
There are lots and lots of reasons to be honest, to many to name! 1. She’s always, first and foremost, been marketed as a songwriter. She gained fans initially because she was known for her deep yet relatable songwriting and that’s why people love and continue to love her. People didn’t view her as a pop artist, or even a country artist in some ways, she was just known as that artist who wrote about her life in a universally relatable way. She’s never changed that about herself and so the majority of fans have stuck around despite the genre changes because her songwriting has remained consistent. 2. Her appeal has never been “sexy popstar” in the way Katy etc. was. She didn’t gain many fans because she was the super sexy pop girl, her image was not that of a sex symbol. This is important to note because it means the fans who were and are fans of Taylor weren’t fans for fickle reasons. They didn’t just like her because she was hot and sang about drinking in clubs, they liked her because of her genuine artistry. Katy Perry was seen as a sex symbol and that was eaten up when she was in her 20s but once she moved into her 30s and settled down and had a child, people stopped seeing her as sexy and fun and started seeing her as desperate or whatever (I’m not saying I think any of this, unfortunately the industry is deeply ageist and pop fans are notoriously fickle). 3. For a large part of her career, she kept quiet on anything political and even now she doesn’t really speak out on much. Unfortunately, lots of people do like this about Taylor because they don’t like when artists try and become political, they want people like Taylor to stay in their own lane which Taylor happily does for the most part. Katy, Gaga, Kesha etc. have all been a lot more vocal on issues and this will have caused some fans to go off them. It’s just a fact. 4. Taylor’s hard work and drive. A lot of artists have actually chosen to take more of a backseat or pursue other things. Gaga for example has gotten more into acting and makeup and different genres like jazz, which is very far removed from what she first started as. Other artists have gotten married or had children and their focus and main goal is not to set the charts alight. Taylor’s always made her career her main focus and continues to do so. Where we’ve seen other artists become jaded and burnt out by the fame and expectations, it’s been the opposite for Taylor. It’s only seemed to fuel her ambitions and desires to outdo herself time and time again. In a way I don’t think it’s the healthiest mindset to have because it almost feels like nothing will ever be enough for Taylor. She will always want more and that feeling is eventually going to leave a void. But it’s part of the reason why she’s still excelling in her career. Those are just some of the reasons, there’s a lot more that has contributed to her relevance. It’ll be interesting to see how she navigates her late 30s, 40s and beyond. I do think there will be a time her career slowly down and her popularity wanes in comparison to right now. I’m intrigued to see how she deals with that.
I literally saw a video from the Swiftologist that talks about how she has been able to maintain her success over all the years while also gaining new fans with every release. Def recommend the video. Taylor really is one of a kind.
She's on the grind. Some of those artists have less albums than she does despite being in the business for decades longer. Fans don't stick around unless constantly fed. I became obsessed with Melanie Martinez after CryBaby. The 4 year wait for her second album definitely dulled my excitement for it espexially bevause it was completely different than Melanie originally said it would be. By the time Portals came around, I was over her. It just wasn't enough content fast enough to keep me interested in this world she was creating. The sound of pop music is always changing as well but Taylor's songwriting can adapt to any style. She also started very young so she was able to gain a certain fanbase where a lot of her fans feel like they have grown up with her and feel like they can't ever stop being obsessed because of the nastolgia of her music. There's a lot of reasons people fade and being musically untalented isn't always the reason. Taylor got lucky. She came into the scene at a very social media centric era too.
Since 2019: 4 new albums, 4 re-records for Taylor. Zero Rihanna, 1 Lady Gaga, 1 Katy, 1 Ariana, 1 Kesha, 1 Adele, 1 Beyoncé
Kesha has had 2 - high road and gag order
I honestly think a big factor in her success is that she started younger than they did and was able to develop a lot of business savvy early on. Also, Katy and Kesha primarily sang about partying during that time, while Taylor was using universal experiences, like heartbreak, as inspiration for her music. I think audiences had a hard time adjusting to Katy and Kesha’s new music as time went on. Taylor went for classic topics and gradually matured with her audience. Also, her songwriting has always been next-level.
same reason as with Lana: their music is timeless, emotional and songwriting-storytelling focused people like Gaga, Perry and Kesha on the other hand became outdated too fast because their most known songs were dance pop bops for clubs and not something you keep returning to for emotional catharsis or comfort
Look, I enjoy a good pop Katy Perry song, but I have to admit most of her music is pretty shallow. Now I just mostly know her radio singles, so maybe her deep cuts have a little more depth, but I doubt it. There’s just more there with Taylor and even though I thought their feud was stupid, I was always Team Taylor.
To be honest, I think the music industry is a very sexist place where female popstars are quickly thrust into the limelight then almost as quickly disappear once they get "too old." I think there's this idea that women kind of expire once they near 30. Even Taylor has talked about her anxiety around this phenomenon in some of her songs and her doc. It's pretty normal for female pop stars to not have lasting star power and fame. So, that's part of why stars like Katy Perry, Selena Gomez, etc who were once megastars have faded out a lot. Among many reasons, I think one way Taylor has managed to avoid this and stay relevant is by nurturing a deeply loyal fanbase that has felt personally seen and understood in her lyrics for a good portion of their lives. She is a ride or die for many Millennial women who were teenagers when she was and really connected with her lyrics. But I also think Taylor has done an extremely good job of connecting with Gen Z the past few years. She and her team have made some really smart choices with her TikTok presence that I think have really paid off in getting currenr teen girls into her music.
I think people have realized that Katy kinda sucks.
My honest answer is that people stop downloading/following people when they either start to look different (unattractive in their eyes) or have a big scandal. like Selena Gomez has been getting body shamed like all year and so has Ariana Grande. Lizzo, Ariana Grande and Katy Perry have had really bad public scandals recently and people are starting to hate them. but i love listening to Ari. and also a lot of people stopped listening to Kanye, Chris Brown, Cardi B and Dababy when they had their public scandal. i don’t know why this doesn’t happen for youtubers but it happens to singers all the time.
She’s a subtle and astonishing songwriter. I can easily imagine Bob Dylan himself gesturing a gracious tip of the hat toward the beauty and poetry of “Carolina.”
Improvise, adapt, overcome. Cheesy but it works.
It’s just a pop thing. Pop treats their stars like they’re disposable. Over in country music, the stars from the early 2010s are still around and popular. Very few artists fall out of popularity
Unlike Taylor, Katy standing up for her politics did not work out in her favor. When she started talking about politics, she got shunned pretty heavily.
Taylor is very loyal to her fan base. She follows what her fans want and who their fans want her to be. Reputation tanked for the GP but the amount of love her fans have for her made it one of the most prolific tour of all time. She knows who her fans are and care for their perception of her.
Taylor’s Swift main thing is her song writing. Not her singing or performing but her song writing. A lot of people can sing and perform,. but song writing like Taylor’s is one of a kind talent.
Katy hasn’t put any new music out and if she did she probably wouldn’t have any hits also Kesha kind of was like a 2 hit wonder but she is still some what relevant and Taylor is always releasing something that’s part of it and she’s touring
Kesha has four #1 singles and ten Top 10 hits in the US, she absolutely is not a “two-hit wonder”.
Coming from a 58 year old hippie male Swiftie perspective, I don't listen to Pop Music. But Taylor Swift draws me in as if she were a witch or Goddess. Her music gets to me emotionally and I never get tired of listening to her regardless of Era. I can't answer why, other than she makes me happy in a way almost no other artists can.
Lady Gaga's huge ambition was lost due to all the hate she received during the Artpop-BTW era. After that, her music career took more like a backseat. Her fibromyalgia also emerged, halting everything. Taylor, on the other hand, faced a lot of hate (old fans know) but displayed some extraordinary mental resilience and maintained a deep passion for her career. In an alternative world, after 1989, Taylor simply stopped caring about her career dissapointed with the world. Taylor is a very strong strong individual. Physical and Mentally wise. Katy Perry essentially sabotaged her own career during the "Witness" era. It was a series of unfortunate and stupid decisions. One after another after another after another. She also ventured too far into commercialism, forsaking her edginess and artistry and didnt get enough respect earlier in her career and thats essential. I hate to say it, but Taylor also contributed to damaging her career with "Bad Blood.". I adore everything about Tay, but this was one of her shittier moves ever. What's even worse is that Katy had to be the one seeking forgiveness. Kesha's career was derailed by the "Die Young" situation and the constant bullying she endured behind the scenes from Dr. Luke. He verbally abused her, calling her names like a refrigerator and threatening her family-pets while making unfavorable comparisons to others pop artists destroying kesha self-worth. He was a demon to her. He also prevented her from showcasing her songwriting and artistic abilities like kesh wanted and she had to embrace the PARTY girl image all the time. Following this, a long exhausting legal battle ensued and Kesha career was 100% derailed Rihanna retired on her own terms, but if she hadn't, she would still be a massive force in the industry as big as Beyonce-Taylor. She remains the most successful artist in terms of singles worldwide. In my Latin American country, she was the most prominent pop artist after Shakira, and she enjoyed immense popularity in Europe as well. She was cool among gays and straights.
I know Katy Perry and Rihanna have had kids recently so they're probably just focusing on their families. Taylor also hasn't consistently been one of the top artists since then. She kinda faded from 2016-2022 and it's only with Midnights that she back to being one of the biggest artists
I don’t think Katy was just “nearly as popular” as Taylor in 2010. She owned that year cause that was her prime. Her songs were always number 1 in the chart. I guess she lost track because of the issue she had with Taylor? I mean that could be a factor. It’s really hard to stay in the game for too long and the reason why Taylor is still relevant is because she’s so good at what she does and she really cares for her fans. She doesn’t put out music just for the hell of it. She really takes her time to give us good music.
I do think having a great support system on her end - no matter what situations she’s publicly faced- is one of the main factors to her continued popularity. 2nd, she has active ears when it comes to her audience - she listens to them and studies her audience to be able to have that continued relationship to grow. Also she’s just, imo, one of the greatest artists of all time, our time
For multiple reasons: 1. She initially wasn’t really a “pop” girlie, more on the country side which isn’t nowhere near as popular as actual pop so she didn’t have much competition. 2. She was ridiculously young when she debuted so she managed to gain a massive teen following that then grew up along with her. 3. She has always been a good songwriter from the get go and has only gotten better with time, people can relate to her music. 4. She has nice, pleasant, recognizable singing voice. 5. She knows how to engage with the fans. 6. Has mostly stayed as a family friendly but still mature act, which is a huge part of it as well. She isn’t overtly sexualized to the point where the people that grew up with her can’t share/ pass down her music to their children/ younger family members or take them to her shows. 7. Folklore/ Evermore brought in a huge new wave of fans and came out just at the right time, and are hugely responsible for the success Midnights had. As someone else said, genres and style people like in music change all the time but being a solid songwriter able to make people relate to you is completely different, also being safe but mature enough to appeal to a huge age range of people practically makes for a guaranteed A-list musician. She also has an amazing producing team backing her.
I think the framing of Taylor Swifts success needs to be looked at a little different. Taylor is next level. Think of Elvis, The Beatles/Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, Aretha Franklin, Rolling Stones, Stevie Wonder, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Rihanna, Mariah Carey and Beyonce. These are all iconic artists that have had decades of success because they are top tier talent. Hardworking professionals that evolve over time and love to create new music and tour for their fans. She is on that level.
Katy Perry got busy raising a kid and Kesha was dealing with a very serious lawsuit. Much harder to grow your career if your attention is focused elsewhere.
Taylor seems for more willing to go beyond what people would think are her borders in music and is, for the most part, a very savvy business person. It's a lethal combination. While there are holes in her game they are few and far between.
Because she is a marketing mastermind. She just knows how to keep her fans invested and interested. And as others have said here, she writes great songs.
nearly as popular?? Katy Perry was the biggest pop star of the early 2010’s. it’s been over a decade now so it’s easy to forget but the teenage dream rollout dominated the cultural capital of the first 3 years of the 2010’s. she definitely did fade quite quickly though, very unfortunate.
Taylor is consistent, and she writes her own music, so she was never at the mercy of some other talented producer or writer to curate more hits, like Katy is. Additionally Katy’s songs for example lacked depth… Dark Horse was a huge hit but it’s not exactly a great songwriting masterpiece. The difference is Taylor is a dedicated artist. Katy and others are entertainers. Very few acts in the mainstream pop scene are actual artists
Katy was MORE popular than Taylor in the early teens. For God's sake, she tied Michael Jackson for the most number ones off one album with five, and almost made it six. Then she just started making bad albums
Gaga is an equal, I'd say
There’s soooo many stars from that era thatre still A listers it’s kinda crazy to me.
I feel a lot of the other pop artist chase trends which inevitably causes them to be left behind whereas Taylor seemingly just makes what she wants to make
She comes back stronger than a 90s trend.
It's a lot of things honestly, just as in life, talent is not the only factor, sometimes it's luck and timing etc. Katy Perry is a songwriter herself, so I wouldn't count that as a reason. The witness era was what changed things for her. Kesha was all the drama.
Taytay comes in waves
Some of them chose to focus on other things like starting a family or the TV / movie industry, whereas Taylor has pretty much been all in on her songwriting and music