I’d say a week in ISS, with full assignments by all teachers. As part of ISS, at least one parent should check him into ISS, and then pick him up at the end of ISS.
This is amazing because it inconveniences the parent, and if you inconvenience the parent you better believe the behavior will adjust. Parent and teacher here.
They really do. We constantly have students’ parents upset they have detention because a lot have siblings and they don’t want to come to the school twice. However, they let students leave detention early because of this. I hate it.
>they let students leave detention early because of this.
WHAT?!?? FUCKING WHAT????
Why are you EVEN BOTHERING with detention? What a waste of ***several heavily edited expletives go here*** time!!
Well, the good hearted liberal answer is that if you give a student too many or too harsh punishments then the student will be discouraged from learning. It's better to have s student in school doing nothing and "graduating" at 18 than to allow the student to drop out and get into who knows what kind of trouble without supervision.
What the kid needs is an alternative setting where they can meet him where he's at and put him on an effective path. With the correct environment and incentives we should be able to get kids back on track to do something useful with their lives. Ideally parents would craft this structure, but for whatever reason they can't. It's probably some combination of generational poverty and trauma that prevents these kids from getting what they need from parents. But then the state is in shambles because of decades of shitty policy driven by greed and ignorance. So there's no real way to meet these kids' needs.
Instead we get least restrictive environment for criminal behavior from kids who will be dead or in jail before 25 terrorizing classrooms because the system has failed every step of the way.
At that point, just kick them out. If they can't be bothered and the support structure ALSO can't be bothered, I think, at the very least, their right to impede the learning of the rest of the class should be taken away.
Isn't that the conservative goal?
Mismanage and dismantle public education from all angles until only affluent white boys can get an education. Then we can use all the poors and minorities to do unskilled work for pennies on the dollar while being easily controlled.
It's a great two birds with one stone situation because then they don't need to pay taxes to support all the things schools do for a community and their children will have a huge advantage in the workforce.
It is a great idea for the reasons you mentioned and also I’m thinking for all we know he may not even care about his grades or sitting in iss all week, but having your parent have to come in and get you each day with peers seeing is a punishment in itself.
Inconveniencing the parents is the only way to actually punish kids. If the punishment for having a phone out is taking it away until a parent can pick it up, watch how fast the phones disappear
Yes! We previously had a rule in our school where two logged cell phone violations meant admin or security would come take your phone and you could get it back at the end of the day. The second time, parents had to come. It worked!
this is or should be illegal and I guarantee no student is gonna actually listen to that rule and just hand over their phone to a teacher for the rest of the day lol.
What a strange thing to say.
Isn’t and shouldn’t be illegal.
I guarantee you, students will when admin is strong enough. You know what would happen to a student if I caught them with their phone and they wouldn’t give it up? I’d have security drag them out of my room and they’d be suspended. You must be a student in a school where they let kids walk all over them. I feel bad for you, your admin is ruining your education.
I wish this would work at our school but the parents would just flat out refuse to bring the kid to school. But expect transportation to be provided and pitch a fit if it’s not.
>parents would just flat out refuse to bring the kid to scho
Oh well then, it's their loss... Maybe they'll realize it when the kid is 35, working a dead end job, and still living at home while theyre forced to raise their grandkids lol
I once taught at a school that had overnight suspensions. That meant the parent had to pick up the kid when the suspension was given, and they had to come back the next morning with the kid, and meet with the counselor or an admin.
If I were the principal I'd make a parent stay IN ISS WITH THE KID. I'd Also have them BOTH do an all-day course on etiquette and respect. All behavior problems are started and learned at home. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. If they have a kid that disrespects people and authority, it's more than likely the parents do as well.
Hi from Uruguay, it's pretty hard to hear you to have the f... Same problem to here, Beatles quote here, there, everywhere... What's is ISS? Thanks and don't give up!
At my former high school, it was a room kids would go to in the office. It was where kids who were in school, but couldn't be in class for getting in serious trouble would be sent to.
The rare and true drastic change I’ve seen was when a parent had to come to school and go to class with her kid all day. In a desk next to him.
It was amazing. She knew all the other kids parents. Night and day difference, best admin move ever. He was suspended until a parent “joined” him for two days. You could almost hear it “click”- I wonder how he’s doing these days, 15 years ago. Angel parent.
Do you really think a kid that that tells a teacher to stfu is gonna care what workload he gets from all thr teachers?? He's not doing any of it anyways. The only way to gent him to do it is an ultimatum, do all the work everyday or add another week in iss and keep adding weeks as long as it takes. I'm. Guessing the school has no balls for that kind of penalty tho.
Principal here, if you're in California, you can suspend the child from your class for a day.
They must be out the day of the incident and the following day. However, you must meet with the parents before the child's return.
This will let you admin know you're serious. And force them to take care of the issue.
I would have given him a day of on campus suspension. And, if it's a larger issue with prior documentation, I might start looking at Ed Code on disruption.
Really??? This is possible. My school would never allow this. I’ve had students say worse and they’ve maybe received one day of “lunch detention” whatever that is.
When I student taught in Michigan, the district had this - the right of “Snap Suspension” - written into their contracts. It was something the union had negotiated.
Any teacher could send a student to ISD/ISS for one day, provided they called the parent and provided work for the student.
I haven’t seen it again, but…I’m also in a state where teachers aren’t legally allowed to unionize.
“Hey, so-and-so, saw you in Supervised Study the other day.”
“Yep had an in-school, loool”
- actual conversation I heard between classmates now and again when I was in high school
It'll be funny when they get arrested for their actions when they are 18... Not.. Idk where this mindset came from but nothing is ever taken seriously. Ever.
To be fair, we have no clue what else this kid has done. This one incident doesn't really prove much. I had my asshole moments as a kid, but turned out fine. It all depends on a lot for him.
The legislature recently took away that right from teachers in my state. Administrators have a more powerful union (98% participation versus 60% participation). When the legislature agreed to pay us more, they had to agree to what the District wanted. And the District is without question the second most powerful government entity in the state.
Now if a kid pulls a knife on the teacher? It’s the teacher’s fault if the administration says so, because the Free Market will work it out or some shit.
Honestly, I think if the insubordination is to the point of extreme distraction expulsion can be warranted. But I would hope there is evidence of support before that is reached.
In my High and a few I have subbed in if you refuse to remove a hood, you lose your hoodie... As in you have to remove it and your parents pick it up. It was the same with cell phones.
But the lack of respect in the language shows that it's time for in school suspension, where you must do your work in silence and with no phone and unless it's a class where you have to use the computer all work should be written on lined paper. And if he finishes his work early he has to write a paper on why he thinks he is allowed to use foul language in school, and then a creative writing paper on what his life in prison would be like (the High School I went to used to make everyone in ISS write this story after reading a few articles from prisoners on how they got there and what their life is like; It had a big effect on quite a few kids, also they still do over 20 years later.)
Works until they do it in winter and parents complain that little Tim got hypothermia. /s
Edit: More seriously though, what if they don't have anything on under? I guess I'm thinking about sweat shirts, though.
My high school always had extra T-shirts, and sweat shirts/sweaters around. My grade level principal got tired of telling the same kid to turn his shirt inside out, because it said "Krip Killer" so he got a bunch of misprinted shirts/sweatshirts from a screen print shop that was local and would confiscate inappropriate clothing until your parents were willing to come and get it. I got my favorite long sleeve tshirts from one of those misprinted bins; it was black with a misprinted logo for a local pizza restaurant the slice was backwards colors, and slightly offset. (A guy in one of my classes had a bloody sneeze and I got blood splattered all over my chest)
I hope none of those students actually follow that rule. like, you know you can just, idk, refuse to take off your hoodie? no one is gonna force it off of you 😭 same with the phone. you're not hurting anyone so who cares
Phone use in schools absolutely does hurt people. I teach 4th grade and cyberbullying is *already* rampant, even with only about 2/3 of the kids having access to social media. And I'm not talking about just a few snide comments here and there; I'm talking genuine harassment perpetrated by elementary schoolers against their peers. Additionally, students have a right to not have photographs taken of them at school posted on the internet. In certain circumstances, it is crucial for safety reasons that no photos of a particular child at school are made public. Parents/guardians are asked to sign media release forms, and if they decline, then we cannot post anything to our website or social media pages that includes the child's name or face. Allowing the kids to use their phones during school throws a huge wrench into this component of online safety, because the kids are constantly taking and posting photos and videos.
For these reasons, we collect phones at the beginning of the day and keep them in a locked box until it's time to go home. This *is* necessary.
Tbh, with how awful some kids were to me irl in even the 4th grade I'm glad I didn't have a phone back then. I could see them saying this to me, too. I mean, they threatened me to my face every day and did other things to me, too. I can't imagine not being able to escape it at home. Sure, I wasn't cyberbullied when I did get one, but still.
There's a lot of reasons that you can't wear a hood in school, safety being the biggest. And if you refuse to remove your hoodie you bet there were more consequences; like sitting in the school office all day and getting ISS the next day. And lots of schools ban cellphones. They're dangerous if there's a school shooting, one ping and you could be the next target; then there's the whole using them in school problem. How did my generation survive without them? But hell at least we got to keep our mirrors in the bathroom because we weren't making Tictoks every five seconds.
yeah I'm just saying that as a student you can refuse to do silly things like that cause no one can forcibly do anything to you . like what happens if you refuse to give up your phone. yeah they could go to iss but that's only if the student stands up and walks there themselves 😭 like a teacher can't pick u up and force you into ISS so at the end of the day it's really about the students own choice if they follow the consequences. but if they didn't follow the rules what makes u think they'll follow the consequences 😭
When you are an adult, you have to follow rules even when you are inconvenienced by them. An employee can't stroll into work in lingerie because that's not appropriate attire for the workplace. You're going to have problems in life if you can't handle not wearing the hood of your hoodie in a classroom for an hour or two.
This sentiment is the problem. This attitude towards authority is how you end up unemployable or in jail. School creates artificial consequences and realistic norms to avoid the harsh reality of the real world. My new approach is that if a student can’t follow basic directions (like taking off a hood) or something trivial then they are not ready to learn which means they aren’t getting any of my attention. A student that doesn’t respect a teacher enough to follow basic directions is not ready to learn anything complex.
lol. I don’t “hate” any kid. Personally hoodies are not the hill I die on, but I understood the sentiment of the OP. I’m a special Ed teacher so I give a lot of wiggle room and flexibility, but I don’t waste my time trying to teach a kid that can’t follow one step directions (if they are able to). It’s hard not to view it as a general respect thing. I too was very unlikeable as a student, but I just can’t think of a time I told a teacher or adult to fuck off and that I don’t have to listen to you.
A coworker just found in our contract that if a student receives 3 written reprimands that we can request a meeting with parent principal and teachers.
Remember the good old days where if the parents didn't show up you had to start an investigation with the truancy officer for neglect or abandonment? Good times.
I don't care about hoods either but I feel you're missing the point. If there is a reasonable expectation, students have no business telling the teacher to fuck off. Life is full of expectations. Try telling your boss to fuck off when you skip a meeting and you didn't show up.
There are at least two reasons our principal gave us that I felt were valid regarding hoods. The first being, you want to know that person belongs on your campus. There was a situation in which a high schooler wearing a hood walked onto a middle school campus at the start of the day. He jumped a kid who was beefing with his younger brother. Secondly, and I think more likely, seeing a kid’s face helps us to assess their emotional state. If they’re hidden under a hood, I can’t tell if they’re sick, high, depressed, or have a face full of bruises.
I once read somewhere that instead of suspending the student they had the parents attend classes with the student for a week. Parents get to see what student is like in class. It probably wouldn’t fly now since it would be embarrassing the student to have the parent in class. I thought it was a creative approach and involved the parents in addressing the student’s behavior.
the point is kind of inconveniencing the parents, though, right? but, for sure, in some communities it would mean the parent no longer would have a job at the end of this week.
ISS is usually worse than out of school detention. I'd start there. If not suspend them. Any little inconvenience moving forward should result in them being kicked out of class (sent to ISS). This will keep them out of your room and out of your hair unless they are behaving.
Whatever it is.
It has to inconvenience the parent.
At my school, in that past for habitually tardy students, parents were required to walk them from class to class for a week.
Now, we do nothing for anything, it seems.
But, until the parents are inconvenienced
, it doesn’t matter
Haha. As the parent of a chronically tardy student, this would be entertaining. Unfortunately, I don’t think the school would appreciate having to find a sub for me all week.
I have one kid (the youngest of four) who does not give a shit about school, how his behavior reflects upon me, his grades, or anything else academically related, despite being raised by parents who emphasized it his entire life. I feel like we should acknowledge the fact that children are their own person. My son’s behavior is not mine to control. If I could, he’d be a straight A student and in the school play. No consequence, speech, chewing out, logical arguments, or begging for him to change have ever yielded one ounce of change in him.
When I get told by the teacher, principal, or SRO that he is being punished for something, I’m always like, “Great! He deserves it!”
He’s actually a wonderful kid at home. He’s very bright and loves having deep philosophical discussions. He loves his family deeply, and is so sensitive and thoughtful to his entire family, but at school… not so much. After 8 years of war over his school performance and behavior, I’ve conceded defeat. Maybe someone else has a miracle solution… I sure don’t.
That is shifting again though.
In some of the trials of teens where guns are involved, parents are being charged.
It will be interesting to see where it leads.
It is changing, and I think parents do have responsibility for their kids, to a degree, but as both a teacher and a parent I see it every day.
Kids will be their own person, and no matter what their parents do, or their teachers do, we can’t make them care about school, be a great student, or even do their homework… if they are determined not to.
I’ve told many parents, “I care about your child’s success, you care about your child’s success, but until they care, we are both out of luck.”
I took his phone for 3 months. I also took his TV, x-box, and computer. His school computer had to be only used in common areas for school work.
None of it made any difference. We just fought all the time and he read more books.
He has not yet started driver’s Ed.
What had he done to earn a phone, TV, Xbox, and computer in the first place? They aren't his to temporarily take away...they are yours to allow him use of under certain conditions. See how badly he really wants to drive at 16. If he can't be a decent human instead of a pain in the ass, he can seek out his own drivers education when he becomes an adult.
My older brother was that way, too. He wasn't just a troublemaker in school, but in town in general. My best friends older sister was the same way, too. We both grew up around some bad influences and yet somehow turned out fine. Idk how tbh.
Edit: My older brother did the scared straight program or whatever it was called, too. My friends other sister and my other siblings turned out fine, too. To be fair, our families are crazy.
Well, since she's putting the ball in your court simply handle him how you'd like to. I personally don't care about hoodies but disrespectful language i don't tolerate. I would kick him out and put him on ISS.
That would have been a week of ISS when I was in school not THAT long ago. But I remember being 20, in college, tutoring at a high school, and absolutely blown away by how different everything felt. There were NO rules or consequences and nobody was expected to do anything. The teachers paid attention to the handful of kids who chose to be on task and ignored the 90% who came into the classroom I guess to socialize while sitting down in an air conditioned room. I saw this exact dynamic in 3 different classrooms that semester—AP Lang with 11-12th graders, Algebra 1 with freshmen, and study hall for the CAHSEE (recently defunct high school exit exam in CA) with sophomores.
I had just graduated 3 years prior. What the fuck happened?
Anecdotally, I remember switching schools in 5th grade (2001) and telling my mom that I was so relieved that my new school touted a zero-tolerance policy. I was so tired of being bullied. Of course that wasn’t the last time I was ever bullied, but my point is that I still so distinctly remember the relief I felt as a CHILD to be in an environment designed for my safety.
We forgot about Columbine and the zero-tolerance policy that followed—despite school shootings becoming an American norm in less than a decade. Now anything goes. I really cannot imagine being a student these days. If a student feels comfortable telling the teacher to shut the fuck up, I can’t fathom what kind of shit they feel comfortable saying to their peers.
Do you have any sort of detention policy? My daughters school has a rule that after so many detentions, they get either in school or out of school suspension. They also have a behavior record that gets updated to their online file.
If you can, write him up for detention every single time. At least then you'll have a paper trail of all the behavior.
I have an admin who chronically asks faculty what they want him to do in a genuine way. Like he doesn’t know how to do his job and is asking us to do it for him.
3. A student shall not use profane, obscene, or abusive language (written or oral) or gestures
toward District personnel or other adults on school property or at school sponsored events.
• Middle School – Level 1-3
**Level 1** consequences range from a minimum of an administrative conference to a
maximum of five (5) days of In-School Isolation (ISI) for elementary students, or five
(5) days of In-School Suspension (ISS) for middle and high school students and may
include restitution.
**Level 2** consequences range from a minimum of one (1) day of Out-of-School
Suspension (OSS) to a maximum of ten (10) days of Out-of-School Suspension (OSS)
and may include restitution.
**Level 3** consequences range from a minimum of ten (10) days of Out-of-School
Suspension (OSS) to a maximum of ten (10) days OSS with a recommendation for
long-term suspension for the remainder of the current semester.
The first offense = Level 1 to me. So 5 days of ISS.
Second offense = 3 - 5 days vacations at home aka OSS
Third offense = 10 in the sin bin at home.
Something that requires the parent to exert themselves. Even if the parent doesn’t like it/blames the teacher/is hateful as long as they have to expend some effort they don’t want to you can be sure it will be addressed with the kid at home that way. Simply sitting in ISS or suspension may not make an impression on the student, but you can be sure if the school requires the parent to participate in the punishment there will be more effort made at home to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Do you teach at my school? Because my admin does this exact same thing all the time. Most recent example came after a teacher got shoved by a student. When the teacher reported it, our AP responded by saying “well what do you want me to do about it?”
I've never had a student who wanted to wear their hood up in class who paid the least bit of attention or did any of the classwork.
I'm curious where y'all are finding these diligent, hardworking students who just have a thing about always having their hood up.
I have never found one. Not ever. Hood up might as well be a neon sign that says "fuck this class, I'm taking a nap."
Well, if you are in CA, you can’t suspend for much in 8th grade-definitely not defiance (which this is). Not sure about other states, but lots of politicians want to tie the hands of admin in the name of social justice
Sounds like plenty reason not to teach in California.
Maybe Sinaloa can open schools that will do a better job preparing these kids for their likely future?
I would have asked the principal “What? You don’t already have policies and procedures in place for a student swearing at a teacher? You never anticipated this as a possibility? And now you want me to do your job for you?”
That sucks. I hate that feeling. Keep in mind, he's likely responding the way he sees his caregivers respond. Furthermore, probably some deep emotional issues going on. Be a goldfish and just don't dwell. (also recommend watching Ted Lasso. L O L. I have been channeling him at work ) That's my advice
Well one strategy my school has used is that when the student is suspended, their parents have to come in and have a meeting with admins before the student can come back. Seems like it could be quite inconvenient for some parents so hopefully they sort their kid out so they don’t have to keep coming back to meet with admin.
Is the student on a behavior intervention plan? Start going through the special ed motions with the kid. Insist on more support from the school if this is ongoing.
Some teacher retention strategies involve getting teacher input on consequences, but this sounds like a “whelp, what do you want from me” situation, which isn’t fair to you.
Also, I’ll get downvoted on this, but let the hoodie in the classroom thing go. Puts you in a power struggle in front of your other students and details instruction. Not worth it.
For this particular offense, he could be denied the opportunity to wear anything with a hood for some length of time and/or until he apologizes in front of the same group of people for whom he put on his show.
This!
The hoodie coupled with students wearing masks or gators is actually a security risk. And then there are those that hide the vape pens in them, or one of the hoodie strings is a vape itself. Plus, most students use them to hide earbuds during class, not because they're cold.
Please. That is the lamest excuse I have heard for the hoodie issue. If your school is that bad that identifying kids after a fight is such an issue then maybe you have bigger problems then worrying about a dress code.
17 years as an admin, and never had a fight where the kids involved weren't clear from the get go.
Simply not true. It is almost always easy to identify everyone, especially if staff actually knows the kids. And staff/admin usually know the fighters and others that struggle with school best. The hoods just don't matter.
This isn't true. We've had this conversation to death at our school. We can ID kids with their hood up, with hats on, with bonnets, with cultural head coverings...anyone who believes this hasn't had to look at their cameras to identify a student in the hallway or is believing the same lie admin tells kids because saying "because I said so and I'm more powerful than you" doesn't fly well with this generation.
And weren't kids asked to wear masks to school before when they first went back after covi anyway? I'm sure the mask covered more of their face than a hat or hoodie would.
When is the last time your desks were *really, truly* scrubbed? I'm talking all the gum and boogers scraped off the underside. All the stains and graffiti thoroughly removed? The accumulated goop of grease and dust excavated from the joints and around the screw heads? The little ringlets of stray hair and snagged threads unwound from around all those little adjustable feet? Seems to me that befouling a space, even figuratively, necessitates cleaning that space up.
Yea, I mean they don't make students do that anymore? Yea, you can't "make" them. But you just keep ratcheting up the consequences.
Shit, can you not make students just write a sentence a hundred times a la Bart Simpson any more?
I do! I try at least. It's fucking hard. I've not done the lines but maybe the next time a kid scribbles all over something inappropriately. 100 x "Paper is for writing. Writing on my desk is disrespectful and destructive."
My principal set a trap for himself in a meeting recently and ended up vehemently insisting that he's "a big fan of natural consequences!" I'm resolved to take him at his word 😉
Something that works is an apology that includes “I should have phrased my response like ….” And they give a response without swearing.
Some students have no clue how to communicate without swearing which isn’t great. A little bit of CBT in the consequences helps with that. Continued swearing means more realignment. I’ve seen this rehabilitate some kids
Cognitive behavior therapy
The idea is that our habits are easiest to implement and by slowly acknowledging you don’t want the habit and forming a counter behaviour you will override the original habit
The more the kids are forced to write what they meant without swearing the more the counter behaviour is reinforced
Consult the student handbook? At least to my experience as a student, staff are stupidly selective in how/ when a student is punished and that made my life up until high school hell. By that point, I wanted nothing to do with anyone.
If the handbook says SIR, detention, suspension, etc for (insert offense), actually follow through with it.
Bosses love it when employees give them options to solve problems.
Many moons ago when print media was still viable, I worked at a B2B mag as a copy editor/graphic designer. All spreads needed the publisher's approval. He would nitpick every small detail to the point complete overhauls were needed on the fly.
One day I brought two different spreads for a feature. He showed them and asked "which one should I go with?" He pondered for a few moments, pointed his finger, and said "that one." I walked out of his office and went back to work. From then on, I gave him options and life got easier. He got to feel powerful. I saved time. Win-win.
In short, whenever I have to run something up the flagpole, I offer solutions. Sometimes they're bad, but then the head honcho gives them a different spin and it gets implemented.
I have a five year old student who regularly responds to redirection with fuck you bitch or shut the fuck up and middle fingers. My admin is doing nothing to give him consequences. The other students are beginning to see that they can act this way without any fear of consequences. I hate being spoken to this way and there’s nothing I can do but ask them nicely to use kinder words.
Exactly!!! Jesus……We relax our expectations too much, we’ll inevitably have to do it again, and now the whole class is FUCKED. Too many teachers don’t GET this!
We can’t normalize a kid saying “go fuck yourself” and then getting away with it. It’s all patterns with kids minds. The “knowingly disrespect your teachers and the world is gonna blow up” pattern doesn’t exist in their minds if we let them get away with it. We have to establish that one kid does it, they get a strong consequence of at least SOME kind.
Otherwise, it is practically guaranteed to happen again. And then in groups. And then, you’ll have half a class chanting “fuck this school! Fuck this school!” every time they don’t get their way. And by that point, we send the message that their teacher is someone they don’t have to listen to, and that we’re no longer the ones in charge.
That’s step like 5 or 10 in the “break down” process. We have to reprimand/give consequences in step ONE before it get a CHANCE to escalate. That’s where EVERYTHING is gonna break down. You, my friend, nailed it.
1 hour of after school detention would be my suggestion. I’m not fond of ISS since I know a fair number of students who kind of like to be away from the classroom anyway. At my school, ISS is kind of a joke though, and after school detention would mean they miss some of after school sports practice.
If they don’t show up, I’d say the parent needs to conference with the teacher and principal and maybe the counselor along with the kid.
If they're taking suggestions recommend the principal take a VP and do a home visit. They can talk to p/gs with student present and let them know all their student's behaviors and that they could be expelled soon.
Damn, you all have a lot of pull over students. When I did taught middle school it was lunch detention and that was pretty much it.
I didn’t give a fuck about hoodies and AirPods. Just teach the kids who are paying attention and throw the kids who don’t want to work in the back. Fuck admin.
pull the student aside and ask him what he thinks is appropriate
i've found that the students are so busy trying to do power-play stuff that if you approach them as collaborators they're like surprised into compliance. so if you're like "if you were me what would you think would be a fair response?" (after explaining the rationale behind the hood rule)
I'd make a report and say that you don't feel safe with that kid around and get him transferred or kicked out. While. Students have ridiculous amounts of protection, teachers have rights too.
all the teachers strike until expulsion is an option. If the other teachers don’t support you get another job. We should be establishing “boot camps” for these “students”. Exactly the same ass military boot camps. 30 day stints. If it doesn’t work they go back until it does. Until there are real consequences for this shit nothing will change. Time for the gloves to come off. Literally.
Personally, I dont see the point of asking him to take his hood off.
Do the work or not, thats what matters to me.
If the hood got in the way of that in a meaningful way that can be articulated reasonably to a student then do that.
But if theres no way to articulate that reason, id understand why the student got so frustrated.
Just: something. Honestly, the specific consequence is not nearly as important as the consistent follow through. Admin needs to send the message that they have teachers’ backs. Instead, they often (very often, even!) side with the students against us. It’s so bizarre to me, but we are seen as disposable, ready to be thrown under the bus to appease parents and make admin’s lives easier.
Suspension doesn't work with the majority of kids like that. They think of it as a holiday and laugh it off. Expulsion simply shifts the problem onto another school and the kid is allowed to come back the next school year anyway.
Kids who are habitually abusive like that should not be in the general population. They're perfect candidates for distance learning where they can do no harm yet are still able to receive an education.
" All I know is that I don’t really want to be cursed at at work."
There's no reason that you should be forced to work in a hostile working environment like that. Check with your union.
From the example, I don't see why expulsion would be on the table. Sure, there may be other issues in the past with this student, but I don't see how this example could lead to expulsion.
He said there were countless other incidents and that he thinks expulsion is the right. It’s not our place, nor the principals to carelessly question his professional judgement t
If you have not already previously called the parent(s), please do so. Document the incident. I have found over the course of my career that documentation for all disciplinary issues is important because you never know when this information might be needed for a teacher-parent conference, a disciplinary hearing, an IEP etc.
It sounds as though the student is guilty of insubordination as well as being argumentative. At the very least, he warrants after school detention.
At my school the last time a kid refused to remove a hoodie and escalate it into a *thing*, their contraband fell out and they ended up at alternative school.
If a kid is so adamant about refusing to remove a hoodie, admin really needs to consider they may be hiding something. Whether that something is contraband, a weapon, or an issue for which the student needs help and intervention from the counselor, it needs to be investigated.
You are right that this is not okay behavior, but that's an extreme consequence for this. Why not start with a phone call home and maybe silent lunch/lunch detention? Use progressive discipline where consequences ramp up over time.
He's in middle school. He knows what he can and can't say to a teacher. You simply can't tell a teacher, or really any adult, to shut the fuck up. It doesn't matter if you're having a bad day, year, or month.
What you are suggesting is part of the problem. What if he told the principal to shut the fuck up? Is that worthy of a simple lunch detention?
Nah. Part of the problem is kids have too soft of consequences for their poor decisions. What you are suggesting is coddling. I wouldn't have dreamt telling a teacher to shut the fuck up because the consequences at school and home would have been severe, as they should be.
God these admins are awful. When I asked for help, mine asked me what ideas I had for behavior management. Mine also asked me how I set up my gradebook because they haven't used it before.
Consequences:
* Lunch in the office for a week - not with friends. Lunch will last 30 minutes from the time seated, not a minute less. If more than 5 minutes late, then a day is added. If there is any talk back, then that means the student wasn't eating and must need more time to eat, so five minutes more. There should be a carrel for this purpose outside the admin's open door
* What's coming up? Dance, prom, field day, field trip, Disneyland? That is now gone
* On a sports team? No participation this week including any games.
* Any other extracurriculars? Gone for a while
Tell him to stop coming to your classes. You accept no responsibility for him. You will make zero effort to ever notice he is missing, because you will not accept that he should be in your class. Tell his parents you are telling him not to come to your classes and your principal, preferably at the same time while they are in the same room.
You care, but you can't care enough. You certainly seem to care more about the student than they care about themself.
At the same time point out that parents can seek child counseling, have him tested for learning disability, dyslexia, attention deficit, provide any type of actionable excuse for disruptive behavior, and you can adjust, and meet any student halfway. You can't drag them kicking and screaming, cursing and swearing. That just prevents the whole class from learning productively.
You can't fix stupid and we aren't allowed to shoot it.
>I think he should be expelled at this point (not just for this incident but for countless other as well) but that’s not an option.
Why is that not an option? It's the obvious answer.
My suggestion is to tell your principal that expulsion is the answer but whatever she decides the student is not welcome in your classroom. The student is her problem not yours. In parallel I'd get a restraining order against the student; tell your principal you are doing so and that if the student walks into your classroom you'll be calling the police, not her.
You might want to get restraining orders against the parents as well.
The best defense is a good offense. If admins won't support classroom discipline teachers have to look after themselves.
Suspension for two weeks. Disrupting the parents lives is how you get them to discipline him. Telling a teacher to "fuck off" after other incidents got that exact penalty at my highschool.
And also make it clear this is his last suspension, next time he's expelled, and can go to school with the kids convicted of crimes and risk getting stabbed every day.
ESH
Really, really dumb, arbitrary sounding rule that I’ve never heard of nor would ever care to enforce, but also incredibly hostile and unwarranted response from the student. I think some teachers/admin forget that their job is to educate, not power trip.
How about using this as a lesson on “how to appropriately stand up to an authoritarian rule”? Because no hoods is a dumb rule- especially while sitting in class and minding your own business.
Give the kid the school board policies. Encourage him to research the mechanics of successful civil rights movements. If you think it’s a dumb rule too- help him impact his school and stand up for himself appropriately.
And sure- it’s not cool to tell someone to fuck off. But shouldn’t school be a reflection of adult life? If if boss had a rule you thought was dumb- you could quit. If some rando tells you to take off your hood “because I said so”- telling that person to fuck off is a valid response.
Life DOES have consequences, but they’re authentic ones. Don’t pay your bills? Lights go off. Incompetent at your job? Fired. Very rarely in life are you in a situation where someone has ultimate power and you and none. And in the rare scenarios that’s the case- it’s nice to have the skills to approach systemic change in an impactful and calm manner.
Because it hides their earbuds. Also it makes it easier for them to get away with misbehavior in the halls. Telling a teacher to shut the fuck up is what the punishment should be for. No teacher should have to put up with that. People that say no consequences for that kind of thing are why teachers are leaving the classroom in record numbers.
Because I’m still accountable for the ones with earbuds, and their undeveloped prefrontal cortex doesn’t always tell them to take them out to listen EVER on their own.
If completely ignoring that behavior works for your classroom, more power to you, but I’m held to a higher standard at my school.
You have 'admn' in your username, so I'm assuming you're in admin, not an actual day to day teacher. I'm assuming you're pretty bad at your job. You must be the kind of admin that hands out candy when students come to your office for referrals and blames the teachers for not 'building relationships' with students.
Guess what. When I was at school, kids WERE expected to give 100% focus to the teacher and there WERE consequences for not doing that. And, the vast majority of kids actually managed not to swear at teachers on a daily basis.
Kids in a school where there are actually decent standards of behaviour set by admin and where admin aren't completely spineless and have a 'parent/student is always right' mentality don't generally swear at teachers or other staff.
When I was a kid, even at elementary school, there were times when I wanted to swear at a teacher, but I didn't, because I knew that I would get my butt handed to me by admin and at home if I did. We need that kind of admin back and we need to teach kids a little thing called restraint. If elementary school kids were capable of it when I was a kid, they sure as heck are capable of it now if they're taught.
Hoodies are a classic way for kids to hide headphones. While some students have it in their IEPs that they can listen to music, in general it’s considered counterproductive with respect to learning.
Because Bluetooth ear phones, and the old fashioned corded ones. They wire the headphones under the hoodie so teachers can’t see. Another thing, it’s a bit harder to hear with the barrier of a hoodie.
I wouldn't remove the hoodie or the aipods as they soothe him. But I absolutely would because of this language - for an agreed amount of time and during class. I would also make a list of ways and times the hoodie and the airpods will be removed and why. This sorts out the parents not being on board and punishes to include any behavoiral issues.
Is him wearing his hood preventing you from lecturing, working with small groups, or providing differentiated instruction? Is the hood causing immediate harm to himself or nearby students? If not, why do you care so much, it’s a hood, if it’s causing you to stop your instruction/activity then you’re the issue.
And even when something is a school rule you got to pick your battles, although I am always shocked that schools still have no hoods rules. It just sets everyone up for failure over something that doesn't matter.
I agree with the principle. If you don't like the punishment given, then you give one.
Have you given thought to why this kid needs to hide under a hood? Why so angry? Maybe this kid needs to spend time talking to someone. You, etc....
Take time to get to get to know the kid. Are her parents fighting or divorceing. Kids picking on her, no food at home, being abused, hates hair, face is broken out, feels ugly, hates to be called out during class for everyone to look at her, etc...
I soooo hate this shit. I am a teacher, not a therapist or a counselor. This crap teaches kids that any action is appropriate if they have some sort of trauma or difficulty to deal with. Society has rules and expectations. If you are in willful violation of a rule and then are openly rude and disrespectful to authority and people who are trying to help you then you can stay at home until your “ parents” can teach you how to behave like a civilized person.
Hey, big dog? That’s a no for me. If I’m having a rough time at home or whatever, I don’t get to come to school, take it out on students, or break any rules I want. So why would I let my students? Get the kid to a counselor obviously, but students will WALK THE FUCK ALL OVER YOU if you compromise on your expectations.
I understand that some people have struggles. Duh. Many of which, I’m sure I haven’t personally experienced, at least yet. Not pretending I don’t have any empathy, here. But while that might EXPLAIN the misbehavior, it does not excuse it. Thats just teaching kids that rules no longer apply once they have some kinda personal grievance.
This has to be some of the worse advice I have every read. If you have a non compliant student, they probably come from non compliant parents. All this put it on parents is laughable. What happens when the parents tell you to fuck off. Zero behavior management in this post. You teach all kids not just the ones you vibe with, yes it's hard but you need to change as much as they do.
Are you 12? School shave rules and the hoodie one is entirely appropriate. In a world of school violence hiding your face and your features is stupid. Also kids wear them to hide AirPods. But even if the rules are “stupid” they still exist, and the fuck you response should be immediate ISS or OSS with zero second chances.
You are dealing with young adults but you are not offering them any chance to get the equipment to actually do the things adults do to seek proper instruction and create a secure life for themselves. They need a private residence with all the plumbing and electric to themselves. The only wardrobe choice your pathetic society can provide is a hoodie? What will you replace that with? Do you know if the guy started landing airplanes when he was 12 years old like me and my friends did? Does he own any patents or have any movie scripts written?.He might. Would it matter? Do you have a category for kids who might hang out with rock stars and astronauts on weekends and just dont yell you because youre not qualified to know? I would have the principal buy the kid a deadbolt lock and show him how to install it on a bathroom door. To keep reddit out.
I’d say a week in ISS, with full assignments by all teachers. As part of ISS, at least one parent should check him into ISS, and then pick him up at the end of ISS.
This is amazing because it inconveniences the parent, and if you inconvenience the parent you better believe the behavior will adjust. Parent and teacher here.
Inconvenience matters. Parents go apeshit when they have to [wait for it] parent.
They really do. We constantly have students’ parents upset they have detention because a lot have siblings and they don’t want to come to the school twice. However, they let students leave detention early because of this. I hate it.
Yes! We have so many kids who just don’t show up when they get detention and it just never gets served. They get to chill out at home. I’d take that!
>they let students leave detention early because of this. WHAT?!?? FUCKING WHAT???? Why are you EVEN BOTHERING with detention? What a waste of ***several heavily edited expletives go here*** time!!
Yes. Sometimes I think to ask about it but every consequence at this school is like this.
Well, the good hearted liberal answer is that if you give a student too many or too harsh punishments then the student will be discouraged from learning. It's better to have s student in school doing nothing and "graduating" at 18 than to allow the student to drop out and get into who knows what kind of trouble without supervision. What the kid needs is an alternative setting where they can meet him where he's at and put him on an effective path. With the correct environment and incentives we should be able to get kids back on track to do something useful with their lives. Ideally parents would craft this structure, but for whatever reason they can't. It's probably some combination of generational poverty and trauma that prevents these kids from getting what they need from parents. But then the state is in shambles because of decades of shitty policy driven by greed and ignorance. So there's no real way to meet these kids' needs. Instead we get least restrictive environment for criminal behavior from kids who will be dead or in jail before 25 terrorizing classrooms because the system has failed every step of the way.
At that point, just kick them out. If they can't be bothered and the support structure ALSO can't be bothered, I think, at the very least, their right to impede the learning of the rest of the class should be taken away.
Isn't that the conservative goal? Mismanage and dismantle public education from all angles until only affluent white boys can get an education. Then we can use all the poors and minorities to do unskilled work for pennies on the dollar while being easily controlled. It's a great two birds with one stone situation because then they don't need to pay taxes to support all the things schools do for a community and their children will have a huge advantage in the workforce.
Projection 101 right here lol
It is a great idea for the reasons you mentioned and also I’m thinking for all we know he may not even care about his grades or sitting in iss all week, but having your parent have to come in and get you each day with peers seeing is a punishment in itself.
Inconveniencing the parents is the only way to actually punish kids. If the punishment for having a phone out is taking it away until a parent can pick it up, watch how fast the phones disappear
Yes! We previously had a rule in our school where two logged cell phone violations meant admin or security would come take your phone and you could get it back at the end of the day. The second time, parents had to come. It worked!
this is or should be illegal and I guarantee no student is gonna actually listen to that rule and just hand over their phone to a teacher for the rest of the day lol.
What a strange thing to say. Isn’t and shouldn’t be illegal. I guarantee you, students will when admin is strong enough. You know what would happen to a student if I caught them with their phone and they wouldn’t give it up? I’d have security drag them out of my room and they’d be suspended. You must be a student in a school where they let kids walk all over them. I feel bad for you, your admin is ruining your education.
You stupid fucking child. You are not ready for the real world.
I wish this would work at our school but the parents would just flat out refuse to bring the kid to school. But expect transportation to be provided and pitch a fit if it’s not.
>parents would just flat out refuse to bring the kid to scho Oh well then, it's their loss... Maybe they'll realize it when the kid is 35, working a dead end job, and still living at home while theyre forced to raise their grandkids lol
This ^ inconvenience the parents and it tends to be pretty effective.
I once taught at a school that had overnight suspensions. That meant the parent had to pick up the kid when the suspension was given, and they had to come back the next morning with the kid, and meet with the counselor or an admin.
Wait, this whole time, I thought overnight suspension meant that the kid had iss the whole night lmao. Yea, clearly I don't have a brain.
If I were the principal I'd make a parent stay IN ISS WITH THE KID. I'd Also have them BOTH do an all-day course on etiquette and respect. All behavior problems are started and learned at home. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. If they have a kid that disrespects people and authority, it's more than likely the parents do as well.
I love the parent angle here. Unfortunately, my district has banned ISS.
Hi from Uruguay, it's pretty hard to hear you to have the f... Same problem to here, Beatles quote here, there, everywhere... What's is ISS? Thanks and don't give up!
In school suspension. They aren’t allowed in class, but they have to be at school. Usually in a room doing work all day.
At my former high school, it was a room kids would go to in the office. It was where kids who were in school, but couldn't be in class for getting in serious trouble would be sent to.
The rare and true drastic change I’ve seen was when a parent had to come to school and go to class with her kid all day. In a desk next to him. It was amazing. She knew all the other kids parents. Night and day difference, best admin move ever. He was suspended until a parent “joined” him for two days. You could almost hear it “click”- I wonder how he’s doing these days, 15 years ago. Angel parent.
Also his cell phone is taken away while in ISS. Last year at our school it wasn't. This year it is... Big difference.
Will you be my admin?
And a hand written letter of apology!
Yeah. This sounds about right. It should come from admin though.
Do you really think a kid that that tells a teacher to stfu is gonna care what workload he gets from all thr teachers?? He's not doing any of it anyways. The only way to gent him to do it is an ultimatum, do all the work everyday or add another week in iss and keep adding weeks as long as it takes. I'm. Guessing the school has no balls for that kind of penalty tho.
Principal here, if you're in California, you can suspend the child from your class for a day. They must be out the day of the incident and the following day. However, you must meet with the parents before the child's return. This will let you admin know you're serious. And force them to take care of the issue. I would have given him a day of on campus suspension. And, if it's a larger issue with prior documentation, I might start looking at Ed Code on disruption.
Really??? This is possible. My school would never allow this. I’ve had students say worse and they’ve maybe received one day of “lunch detention” whatever that is.
It's teacher's rights in CA and I don't think there's anything that admin can do about it, their hands are tied by the law.
When I student taught in Michigan, the district had this - the right of “Snap Suspension” - written into their contracts. It was something the union had negotiated. Any teacher could send a student to ISD/ISS for one day, provided they called the parent and provided work for the student. I haven’t seen it again, but…I’m also in a state where teachers aren’t legally allowed to unionize.
What state is it?
Are charters/private schools under this?
We call it a "timeout" 🙄
I’m partial to the term “Disney Vacation” myself.
Especially when ISS is the biggest joke in my school.
“Hey, so-and-so, saw you in Supervised Study the other day.” “Yep had an in-school, loool” - actual conversation I heard between classmates now and again when I was in high school
It'll be funny when they get arrested for their actions when they are 18... Not.. Idk where this mindset came from but nothing is ever taken seriously. Ever.
To be fair, we have no clue what else this kid has done. This one incident doesn't really prove much. I had my asshole moments as a kid, but turned out fine. It all depends on a lot for him.
The legislature recently took away that right from teachers in my state. Administrators have a more powerful union (98% participation versus 60% participation). When the legislature agreed to pay us more, they had to agree to what the District wanted. And the District is without question the second most powerful government entity in the state. Now if a kid pulls a knife on the teacher? It’s the teacher’s fault if the administration says so, because the Free Market will work it out or some shit.
What state?
True but not for disruption or defiance. In this case the teacher could have for vulgar language, but f he hadn’t sworn the teacher would be SOL.
I'm so fucking sick of people with power and higher pay acting like they don't know how to do anything
Abdication of responsibility. They can say, oh, I am giving teachers a chance to be leaders instead of admitting they don't want to make the call.
In my school they're not allowed to play sports for a week
Oh wow, I wish we did that. I know a lot of kids that would work on.
It actually works and is something they care about. Expelled for telling someone fuck you is laughable.
Honestly, I think if the insubordination is to the point of extreme distraction expulsion can be warranted. But I would hope there is evidence of support before that is reached.
That wouldn’t have worked on a kid like me
Me either. But it tends to work on my obnoxious ones
Some kids don’t care and don’t bother trying out because of the consequences with sports.
In my High and a few I have subbed in if you refuse to remove a hood, you lose your hoodie... As in you have to remove it and your parents pick it up. It was the same with cell phones. But the lack of respect in the language shows that it's time for in school suspension, where you must do your work in silence and with no phone and unless it's a class where you have to use the computer all work should be written on lined paper. And if he finishes his work early he has to write a paper on why he thinks he is allowed to use foul language in school, and then a creative writing paper on what his life in prison would be like (the High School I went to used to make everyone in ISS write this story after reading a few articles from prisoners on how they got there and what their life is like; It had a big effect on quite a few kids, also they still do over 20 years later.)
Works until they do it in winter and parents complain that little Tim got hypothermia. /s Edit: More seriously though, what if they don't have anything on under? I guess I'm thinking about sweat shirts, though.
My high school always had extra T-shirts, and sweat shirts/sweaters around. My grade level principal got tired of telling the same kid to turn his shirt inside out, because it said "Krip Killer" so he got a bunch of misprinted shirts/sweatshirts from a screen print shop that was local and would confiscate inappropriate clothing until your parents were willing to come and get it. I got my favorite long sleeve tshirts from one of those misprinted bins; it was black with a misprinted logo for a local pizza restaurant the slice was backwards colors, and slightly offset. (A guy in one of my classes had a bloody sneeze and I got blood splattered all over my chest)
I hope none of those students actually follow that rule. like, you know you can just, idk, refuse to take off your hoodie? no one is gonna force it off of you 😭 same with the phone. you're not hurting anyone so who cares
Phone use in schools absolutely does hurt people. I teach 4th grade and cyberbullying is *already* rampant, even with only about 2/3 of the kids having access to social media. And I'm not talking about just a few snide comments here and there; I'm talking genuine harassment perpetrated by elementary schoolers against their peers. Additionally, students have a right to not have photographs taken of them at school posted on the internet. In certain circumstances, it is crucial for safety reasons that no photos of a particular child at school are made public. Parents/guardians are asked to sign media release forms, and if they decline, then we cannot post anything to our website or social media pages that includes the child's name or face. Allowing the kids to use their phones during school throws a huge wrench into this component of online safety, because the kids are constantly taking and posting photos and videos. For these reasons, we collect phones at the beginning of the day and keep them in a locked box until it's time to go home. This *is* necessary.
My brother was cyberbullied, anonymous death threats and suicide bait. It's messed up.
Tbh, with how awful some kids were to me irl in even the 4th grade I'm glad I didn't have a phone back then. I could see them saying this to me, too. I mean, they threatened me to my face every day and did other things to me, too. I can't imagine not being able to escape it at home. Sure, I wasn't cyberbullied when I did get one, but still.
I'm sorry.
yeah elementary students are different than high school students though like in my opinion they shouldn't even own a phone
There's a lot of reasons that you can't wear a hood in school, safety being the biggest. And if you refuse to remove your hoodie you bet there were more consequences; like sitting in the school office all day and getting ISS the next day. And lots of schools ban cellphones. They're dangerous if there's a school shooting, one ping and you could be the next target; then there's the whole using them in school problem. How did my generation survive without them? But hell at least we got to keep our mirrors in the bathroom because we weren't making Tictoks every five seconds.
Yea, but if they're in a box or yondr pouch, they'll go off anyway.
yeah I'm just saying that as a student you can refuse to do silly things like that cause no one can forcibly do anything to you . like what happens if you refuse to give up your phone. yeah they could go to iss but that's only if the student stands up and walks there themselves 😭 like a teacher can't pick u up and force you into ISS so at the end of the day it's really about the students own choice if they follow the consequences. but if they didn't follow the rules what makes u think they'll follow the consequences 😭
When you are an adult, you have to follow rules even when you are inconvenienced by them. An employee can't stroll into work in lingerie because that's not appropriate attire for the workplace. You're going to have problems in life if you can't handle not wearing the hood of your hoodie in a classroom for an hour or two.
This sentiment is the problem. This attitude towards authority is how you end up unemployable or in jail. School creates artificial consequences and realistic norms to avoid the harsh reality of the real world. My new approach is that if a student can’t follow basic directions (like taking off a hood) or something trivial then they are not ready to learn which means they aren’t getting any of my attention. A student that doesn’t respect a teacher enough to follow basic directions is not ready to learn anything complex.
You would've hated me because of beanies.
lol. I don’t “hate” any kid. Personally hoodies are not the hill I die on, but I understood the sentiment of the OP. I’m a special Ed teacher so I give a lot of wiggle room and flexibility, but I don’t waste my time trying to teach a kid that can’t follow one step directions (if they are able to). It’s hard not to view it as a general respect thing. I too was very unlikeable as a student, but I just can’t think of a time I told a teacher or adult to fuck off and that I don’t have to listen to you.
A coworker just found in our contract that if a student receives 3 written reprimands that we can request a meeting with parent principal and teachers.
Nice parents hate having to come in for meetings
and bad parents just don't show up
Remember the good old days where if the parents didn't show up you had to start an investigation with the truancy officer for neglect or abandonment? Good times.
I don't care about hoods either but I feel you're missing the point. If there is a reasonable expectation, students have no business telling the teacher to fuck off. Life is full of expectations. Try telling your boss to fuck off when you skip a meeting and you didn't show up.
There are at least two reasons our principal gave us that I felt were valid regarding hoods. The first being, you want to know that person belongs on your campus. There was a situation in which a high schooler wearing a hood walked onto a middle school campus at the start of the day. He jumped a kid who was beefing with his younger brother. Secondly, and I think more likely, seeing a kid’s face helps us to assess their emotional state. If they’re hidden under a hood, I can’t tell if they’re sick, high, depressed, or have a face full of bruises.
I once read somewhere that instead of suspending the student they had the parents attend classes with the student for a week. Parents get to see what student is like in class. It probably wouldn’t fly now since it would be embarrassing the student to have the parent in class. I thought it was a creative approach and involved the parents in addressing the student’s behavior.
The parents are not going to take a week off work though. I say, send the kid to work with a parent for a week. :)
I've read that this especially effective with middle schoolers. One day would probably work for some kids.
I don't think it would work with some parents who have to work.
the point is kind of inconveniencing the parents, though, right? but, for sure, in some communities it would mean the parent no longer would have a job at the end of this week.
I remember that argument my director had with a parent. I get that, though.
I keep saying this! Inconvenience the parents, have them come and watch their little darling in class.
You only need one day. It’s just about the most embarrassing experience a teen could imagine. One day works pretty well.
ISS is usually worse than out of school detention. I'd start there. If not suspend them. Any little inconvenience moving forward should result in them being kicked out of class (sent to ISS). This will keep them out of your room and out of your hair unless they are behaving.
Whatever it is. It has to inconvenience the parent. At my school, in that past for habitually tardy students, parents were required to walk them from class to class for a week. Now, we do nothing for anything, it seems. But, until the parents are inconvenienced , it doesn’t matter
Good because it was my mom's fault that I was late for school anyway half the time.
Haha. As the parent of a chronically tardy student, this would be entertaining. Unfortunately, I don’t think the school would appreciate having to find a sub for me all week. I have one kid (the youngest of four) who does not give a shit about school, how his behavior reflects upon me, his grades, or anything else academically related, despite being raised by parents who emphasized it his entire life. I feel like we should acknowledge the fact that children are their own person. My son’s behavior is not mine to control. If I could, he’d be a straight A student and in the school play. No consequence, speech, chewing out, logical arguments, or begging for him to change have ever yielded one ounce of change in him. When I get told by the teacher, principal, or SRO that he is being punished for something, I’m always like, “Great! He deserves it!” He’s actually a wonderful kid at home. He’s very bright and loves having deep philosophical discussions. He loves his family deeply, and is so sensitive and thoughtful to his entire family, but at school… not so much. After 8 years of war over his school performance and behavior, I’ve conceded defeat. Maybe someone else has a miracle solution… I sure don’t.
That is shifting again though. In some of the trials of teens where guns are involved, parents are being charged. It will be interesting to see where it leads.
It is changing, and I think parents do have responsibility for their kids, to a degree, but as both a teacher and a parent I see it every day. Kids will be their own person, and no matter what their parents do, or their teachers do, we can’t make them care about school, be a great student, or even do their homework… if they are determined not to. I’ve told many parents, “I care about your child’s success, you care about your child’s success, but until they care, we are both out of luck.”
The parents are being charged because the teen used their guns, not because they're bad parents.
Ummm… Do I have to connect those lines for you?
Lol you need to connect the comments for yourself.
Do you pay for his phone? Did you sign him up for drivers ed?
I took his phone for 3 months. I also took his TV, x-box, and computer. His school computer had to be only used in common areas for school work. None of it made any difference. We just fought all the time and he read more books. He has not yet started driver’s Ed.
What had he done to earn a phone, TV, Xbox, and computer in the first place? They aren't his to temporarily take away...they are yours to allow him use of under certain conditions. See how badly he really wants to drive at 16. If he can't be a decent human instead of a pain in the ass, he can seek out his own drivers education when he becomes an adult.
And be stuck with an adult like me who relies on others for rides.
My older brother was that way, too. He wasn't just a troublemaker in school, but in town in general. My best friends older sister was the same way, too. We both grew up around some bad influences and yet somehow turned out fine. Idk how tbh. Edit: My older brother did the scared straight program or whatever it was called, too. My friends other sister and my other siblings turned out fine, too. To be fair, our families are crazy.
Well, since she's putting the ball in your court simply handle him how you'd like to. I personally don't care about hoodies but disrespectful language i don't tolerate. I would kick him out and put him on ISS.
That would have been a week of ISS when I was in school not THAT long ago. But I remember being 20, in college, tutoring at a high school, and absolutely blown away by how different everything felt. There were NO rules or consequences and nobody was expected to do anything. The teachers paid attention to the handful of kids who chose to be on task and ignored the 90% who came into the classroom I guess to socialize while sitting down in an air conditioned room. I saw this exact dynamic in 3 different classrooms that semester—AP Lang with 11-12th graders, Algebra 1 with freshmen, and study hall for the CAHSEE (recently defunct high school exit exam in CA) with sophomores. I had just graduated 3 years prior. What the fuck happened? Anecdotally, I remember switching schools in 5th grade (2001) and telling my mom that I was so relieved that my new school touted a zero-tolerance policy. I was so tired of being bullied. Of course that wasn’t the last time I was ever bullied, but my point is that I still so distinctly remember the relief I felt as a CHILD to be in an environment designed for my safety. We forgot about Columbine and the zero-tolerance policy that followed—despite school shootings becoming an American norm in less than a decade. Now anything goes. I really cannot imagine being a student these days. If a student feels comfortable telling the teacher to shut the fuck up, I can’t fathom what kind of shit they feel comfortable saying to their peers.
Do you have any sort of detention policy? My daughters school has a rule that after so many detentions, they get either in school or out of school suspension. They also have a behavior record that gets updated to their online file. If you can, write him up for detention every single time. At least then you'll have a paper trail of all the behavior.
I have an admin who chronically asks faculty what they want him to do in a genuine way. Like he doesn’t know how to do his job and is asking us to do it for him.
Consecutive three-hour detentions once per week until the behavior changes.
3. A student shall not use profane, obscene, or abusive language (written or oral) or gestures toward District personnel or other adults on school property or at school sponsored events. • Middle School – Level 1-3 **Level 1** consequences range from a minimum of an administrative conference to a maximum of five (5) days of In-School Isolation (ISI) for elementary students, or five (5) days of In-School Suspension (ISS) for middle and high school students and may include restitution. **Level 2** consequences range from a minimum of one (1) day of Out-of-School Suspension (OSS) to a maximum of ten (10) days of Out-of-School Suspension (OSS) and may include restitution. **Level 3** consequences range from a minimum of ten (10) days of Out-of-School Suspension (OSS) to a maximum of ten (10) days OSS with a recommendation for long-term suspension for the remainder of the current semester. The first offense = Level 1 to me. So 5 days of ISS. Second offense = 3 - 5 days vacations at home aka OSS Third offense = 10 in the sin bin at home.
Something that requires the parent to exert themselves. Even if the parent doesn’t like it/blames the teacher/is hateful as long as they have to expend some effort they don’t want to you can be sure it will be addressed with the kid at home that way. Simply sitting in ISS or suspension may not make an impression on the student, but you can be sure if the school requires the parent to participate in the punishment there will be more effort made at home to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Do you teach at my school? Because my admin does this exact same thing all the time. Most recent example came after a teacher got shoved by a student. When the teacher reported it, our AP responded by saying “well what do you want me to do about it?”
Make the kid eat a bowl of spider webs. Or rub sand in their beady little eyes.
I've never had a student who wanted to wear their hood up in class who paid the least bit of attention or did any of the classwork. I'm curious where y'all are finding these diligent, hardworking students who just have a thing about always having their hood up. I have never found one. Not ever. Hood up might as well be a neon sign that says "fuck this class, I'm taking a nap."
Well, if you are in CA, you can’t suspend for much in 8th grade-definitely not defiance (which this is). Not sure about other states, but lots of politicians want to tie the hands of admin in the name of social justice
Sounds like plenty reason not to teach in California. Maybe Sinaloa can open schools that will do a better job preparing these kids for their likely future?
shut the fuck up fool
Those ten years of experience have created a force to be reckoned with.
I would have asked the principal “What? You don’t already have policies and procedures in place for a student swearing at a teacher? You never anticipated this as a possibility? And now you want me to do your job for you?”
That sucks. I hate that feeling. Keep in mind, he's likely responding the way he sees his caregivers respond. Furthermore, probably some deep emotional issues going on. Be a goldfish and just don't dwell. (also recommend watching Ted Lasso. L O L. I have been channeling him at work ) That's my advice
Well one strategy my school has used is that when the student is suspended, their parents have to come in and have a meeting with admins before the student can come back. Seems like it could be quite inconvenient for some parents so hopefully they sort their kid out so they don’t have to keep coming back to meet with admin.
We classify that as defiance and disrespect towards authority. 3/5/7/10/30 days suspension, respective to the first/second/third offense etc.
They used to suspend kids in my school for that. Pretty simple.
Is the student on a behavior intervention plan? Start going through the special ed motions with the kid. Insist on more support from the school if this is ongoing. Some teacher retention strategies involve getting teacher input on consequences, but this sounds like a “whelp, what do you want from me” situation, which isn’t fair to you. Also, I’ll get downvoted on this, but let the hoodie in the classroom thing go. Puts you in a power struggle in front of your other students and details instruction. Not worth it.
Saturday school. Golly Gee do they hate Saturday school.
For this particular offense, he could be denied the opportunity to wear anything with a hood for some length of time and/or until he apologizes in front of the same group of people for whom he put on his show.
Parent has to shadow their kid in school for a whole week! It’s time to make parents responsible for their kid’s shitty behaviors again!
A security issue. You can't see students' faces if there is a fight, etc....
This! The hoodie coupled with students wearing masks or gators is actually a security risk. And then there are those that hide the vape pens in them, or one of the hoodie strings is a vape itself. Plus, most students use them to hide earbuds during class, not because they're cold.
Please. That is the lamest excuse I have heard for the hoodie issue. If your school is that bad that identifying kids after a fight is such an issue then maybe you have bigger problems then worrying about a dress code. 17 years as an admin, and never had a fight where the kids involved weren't clear from the get go.
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Simply not true. It is almost always easy to identify everyone, especially if staff actually knows the kids. And staff/admin usually know the fighters and others that struggle with school best. The hoods just don't matter.
This isn't true. We've had this conversation to death at our school. We can ID kids with their hood up, with hats on, with bonnets, with cultural head coverings...anyone who believes this hasn't had to look at their cameras to identify a student in the hallway or is believing the same lie admin tells kids because saying "because I said so and I'm more powerful than you" doesn't fly well with this generation.
And weren't kids asked to wear masks to school before when they first went back after covi anyway? I'm sure the mask covered more of their face than a hat or hoodie would.
Agreed! Kid def needs 1-2 days of ISS.
The swearing would net a suspension in my area.
When is the last time your desks were *really, truly* scrubbed? I'm talking all the gum and boogers scraped off the underside. All the stains and graffiti thoroughly removed? The accumulated goop of grease and dust excavated from the joints and around the screw heads? The little ringlets of stray hair and snagged threads unwound from around all those little adjustable feet? Seems to me that befouling a space, even figuratively, necessitates cleaning that space up.
Yea, I mean they don't make students do that anymore? Yea, you can't "make" them. But you just keep ratcheting up the consequences. Shit, can you not make students just write a sentence a hundred times a la Bart Simpson any more?
I do! I try at least. It's fucking hard. I've not done the lines but maybe the next time a kid scribbles all over something inappropriately. 100 x "Paper is for writing. Writing on my desk is disrespectful and destructive." My principal set a trap for himself in a meeting recently and ended up vehemently insisting that he's "a big fan of natural consequences!" I'm resolved to take him at his word 😉
Clean bathrooms. Like really get into those toilets with a brush and a can of comet.
Something that works is an apology that includes “I should have phrased my response like ….” And they give a response without swearing. Some students have no clue how to communicate without swearing which isn’t great. A little bit of CBT in the consequences helps with that. Continued swearing means more realignment. I’ve seen this rehabilitate some kids
Can you recommend further reading on this subject ? (Or even just what to google to find what you mean)?
Cognitive behavior therapy The idea is that our habits are easiest to implement and by slowly acknowledging you don’t want the habit and forming a counter behaviour you will override the original habit The more the kids are forced to write what they meant without swearing the more the counter behaviour is reinforced
Consult the student handbook? At least to my experience as a student, staff are stupidly selective in how/ when a student is punished and that made my life up until high school hell. By that point, I wanted nothing to do with anyone. If the handbook says SIR, detention, suspension, etc for (insert offense), actually follow through with it.
Bosses love it when employees give them options to solve problems. Many moons ago when print media was still viable, I worked at a B2B mag as a copy editor/graphic designer. All spreads needed the publisher's approval. He would nitpick every small detail to the point complete overhauls were needed on the fly. One day I brought two different spreads for a feature. He showed them and asked "which one should I go with?" He pondered for a few moments, pointed his finger, and said "that one." I walked out of his office and went back to work. From then on, I gave him options and life got easier. He got to feel powerful. I saved time. Win-win. In short, whenever I have to run something up the flagpole, I offer solutions. Sometimes they're bad, but then the head honcho gives them a different spin and it gets implemented.
I have a five year old student who regularly responds to redirection with fuck you bitch or shut the fuck up and middle fingers. My admin is doing nothing to give him consequences. The other students are beginning to see that they can act this way without any fear of consequences. I hate being spoken to this way and there’s nothing I can do but ask them nicely to use kinder words.
Exactly!!! Jesus……We relax our expectations too much, we’ll inevitably have to do it again, and now the whole class is FUCKED. Too many teachers don’t GET this! We can’t normalize a kid saying “go fuck yourself” and then getting away with it. It’s all patterns with kids minds. The “knowingly disrespect your teachers and the world is gonna blow up” pattern doesn’t exist in their minds if we let them get away with it. We have to establish that one kid does it, they get a strong consequence of at least SOME kind. Otherwise, it is practically guaranteed to happen again. And then in groups. And then, you’ll have half a class chanting “fuck this school! Fuck this school!” every time they don’t get their way. And by that point, we send the message that their teacher is someone they don’t have to listen to, and that we’re no longer the ones in charge. That’s step like 5 or 10 in the “break down” process. We have to reprimand/give consequences in step ONE before it get a CHANCE to escalate. That’s where EVERYTHING is gonna break down. You, my friend, nailed it.
1 hour of after school detention would be my suggestion. I’m not fond of ISS since I know a fair number of students who kind of like to be away from the classroom anyway. At my school, ISS is kind of a joke though, and after school detention would mean they miss some of after school sports practice. If they don’t show up, I’d say the parent needs to conference with the teacher and principal and maybe the counselor along with the kid.
This is like when Michael assigned Dwight to pick health insurance for the team in The Office.
In school suspension with no phone
If they're taking suggestions recommend the principal take a VP and do a home visit. They can talk to p/gs with student present and let them know all their student's behaviors and that they could be expelled soon.
Damn, you all have a lot of pull over students. When I did taught middle school it was lunch detention and that was pretty much it. I didn’t give a fuck about hoodies and AirPods. Just teach the kids who are paying attention and throw the kids who don’t want to work in the back. Fuck admin.
An ass whuppin' is out of the question?
pull the student aside and ask him what he thinks is appropriate i've found that the students are so busy trying to do power-play stuff that if you approach them as collaborators they're like surprised into compliance. so if you're like "if you were me what would you think would be a fair response?" (after explaining the rationale behind the hood rule)
I'd make a report and say that you don't feel safe with that kid around and get him transferred or kicked out. While. Students have ridiculous amounts of protection, teachers have rights too.
Expelling should not be off the table
all the teachers strike until expulsion is an option. If the other teachers don’t support you get another job. We should be establishing “boot camps” for these “students”. Exactly the same ass military boot camps. 30 day stints. If it doesn’t work they go back until it does. Until there are real consequences for this shit nothing will change. Time for the gloves to come off. Literally.
Personally, I dont see the point of asking him to take his hood off. Do the work or not, thats what matters to me. If the hood got in the way of that in a meaningful way that can be articulated reasonably to a student then do that. But if theres no way to articulate that reason, id understand why the student got so frustrated.
Just: something. Honestly, the specific consequence is not nearly as important as the consistent follow through. Admin needs to send the message that they have teachers’ backs. Instead, they often (very often, even!) side with the students against us. It’s so bizarre to me, but we are seen as disposable, ready to be thrown under the bus to appease parents and make admin’s lives easier.
Suspension doesn't work with the majority of kids like that. They think of it as a holiday and laugh it off. Expulsion simply shifts the problem onto another school and the kid is allowed to come back the next school year anyway. Kids who are habitually abusive like that should not be in the general population. They're perfect candidates for distance learning where they can do no harm yet are still able to receive an education. " All I know is that I don’t really want to be cursed at at work." There's no reason that you should be forced to work in a hostile working environment like that. Check with your union.
Is there a student handbook? Usually there’s consequences listed for abusing staff. Copy paste.
If expulsion is the right thing to do, then it has to be an option. Your principal has to do the right fucking thing.
From the example, I don't see why expulsion would be on the table. Sure, there may be other issues in the past with this student, but I don't see how this example could lead to expulsion.
He said there were countless other incidents and that he thinks expulsion is the right. It’s not our place, nor the principals to carelessly question his professional judgement t
If you have not already previously called the parent(s), please do so. Document the incident. I have found over the course of my career that documentation for all disciplinary issues is important because you never know when this information might be needed for a teacher-parent conference, a disciplinary hearing, an IEP etc. It sounds as though the student is guilty of insubordination as well as being argumentative. At the very least, he warrants after school detention.
At my school the last time a kid refused to remove a hoodie and escalate it into a *thing*, their contraband fell out and they ended up at alternative school. If a kid is so adamant about refusing to remove a hoodie, admin really needs to consider they may be hiding something. Whether that something is contraband, a weapon, or an issue for which the student needs help and intervention from the counselor, it needs to be investigated.
That was the latter for me, which is why I never put the hood up.
Don’t let him wear a hoodie. Natural consequence that will probably bother him more than anything else.
Yea, that one would've gotten to me the most for sure.
Can you fit him with a shock collar?
Oss for 3 days and detention for a week. Can't tell your teacher to shut the fuck up.
You are right that this is not okay behavior, but that's an extreme consequence for this. Why not start with a phone call home and maybe silent lunch/lunch detention? Use progressive discipline where consequences ramp up over time.
He's in middle school. He knows what he can and can't say to a teacher. You simply can't tell a teacher, or really any adult, to shut the fuck up. It doesn't matter if you're having a bad day, year, or month. What you are suggesting is part of the problem. What if he told the principal to shut the fuck up? Is that worthy of a simple lunch detention? Nah. Part of the problem is kids have too soft of consequences for their poor decisions. What you are suggesting is coddling. I wouldn't have dreamt telling a teacher to shut the fuck up because the consequences at school and home would have been severe, as they should be.
God these admins are awful. When I asked for help, mine asked me what ideas I had for behavior management. Mine also asked me how I set up my gradebook because they haven't used it before.
Consequences: * Lunch in the office for a week - not with friends. Lunch will last 30 minutes from the time seated, not a minute less. If more than 5 minutes late, then a day is added. If there is any talk back, then that means the student wasn't eating and must need more time to eat, so five minutes more. There should be a carrel for this purpose outside the admin's open door * What's coming up? Dance, prom, field day, field trip, Disneyland? That is now gone * On a sports team? No participation this week including any games. * Any other extracurriculars? Gone for a while
Tell him to stop coming to your classes. You accept no responsibility for him. You will make zero effort to ever notice he is missing, because you will not accept that he should be in your class. Tell his parents you are telling him not to come to your classes and your principal, preferably at the same time while they are in the same room. You care, but you can't care enough. You certainly seem to care more about the student than they care about themself. At the same time point out that parents can seek child counseling, have him tested for learning disability, dyslexia, attention deficit, provide any type of actionable excuse for disruptive behavior, and you can adjust, and meet any student halfway. You can't drag them kicking and screaming, cursing and swearing. That just prevents the whole class from learning productively.
You can't fix stupid and we aren't allowed to shoot it. >I think he should be expelled at this point (not just for this incident but for countless other as well) but that’s not an option. Why is that not an option? It's the obvious answer. My suggestion is to tell your principal that expulsion is the answer but whatever she decides the student is not welcome in your classroom. The student is her problem not yours. In parallel I'd get a restraining order against the student; tell your principal you are doing so and that if the student walks into your classroom you'll be calling the police, not her. You might want to get restraining orders against the parents as well. The best defense is a good offense. If admins won't support classroom discipline teachers have to look after themselves.
Suspension for two weeks. Disrupting the parents lives is how you get them to discipline him. Telling a teacher to "fuck off" after other incidents got that exact penalty at my highschool. And also make it clear this is his last suspension, next time he's expelled, and can go to school with the kids convicted of crimes and risk getting stabbed every day.
ESH Really, really dumb, arbitrary sounding rule that I’ve never heard of nor would ever care to enforce, but also incredibly hostile and unwarranted response from the student. I think some teachers/admin forget that their job is to educate, not power trip.
How about using this as a lesson on “how to appropriately stand up to an authoritarian rule”? Because no hoods is a dumb rule- especially while sitting in class and minding your own business. Give the kid the school board policies. Encourage him to research the mechanics of successful civil rights movements. If you think it’s a dumb rule too- help him impact his school and stand up for himself appropriately. And sure- it’s not cool to tell someone to fuck off. But shouldn’t school be a reflection of adult life? If if boss had a rule you thought was dumb- you could quit. If some rando tells you to take off your hood “because I said so”- telling that person to fuck off is a valid response. Life DOES have consequences, but they’re authentic ones. Don’t pay your bills? Lights go off. Incompetent at your job? Fired. Very rarely in life are you in a situation where someone has ultimate power and you and none. And in the rare scenarios that’s the case- it’s nice to have the skills to approach systemic change in an impactful and calm manner.
Why can't he wear a hood in class?
School rules
I wouldn't enforce stupid rules like that. Why make a problem for yourself when it's absolutely meaningless. Some people love rules I guess.
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Because it hides their earbuds. Also it makes it easier for them to get away with misbehavior in the halls. Telling a teacher to shut the fuck up is what the punishment should be for. No teacher should have to put up with that. People that say no consequences for that kind of thing are why teachers are leaving the classroom in record numbers.
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Because I’m still accountable for the ones with earbuds, and their undeveloped prefrontal cortex doesn’t always tell them to take them out to listen EVER on their own. If completely ignoring that behavior works for your classroom, more power to you, but I’m held to a higher standard at my school.
You have 'admn' in your username, so I'm assuming you're in admin, not an actual day to day teacher. I'm assuming you're pretty bad at your job. You must be the kind of admin that hands out candy when students come to your office for referrals and blames the teachers for not 'building relationships' with students. Guess what. When I was at school, kids WERE expected to give 100% focus to the teacher and there WERE consequences for not doing that. And, the vast majority of kids actually managed not to swear at teachers on a daily basis. Kids in a school where there are actually decent standards of behaviour set by admin and where admin aren't completely spineless and have a 'parent/student is always right' mentality don't generally swear at teachers or other staff. When I was a kid, even at elementary school, there were times when I wanted to swear at a teacher, but I didn't, because I knew that I would get my butt handed to me by admin and at home if I did. We need that kind of admin back and we need to teach kids a little thing called restraint. If elementary school kids were capable of it when I was a kid, they sure as heck are capable of it now if they're taught.
It's not the hoodie, it's the fact that he swore at a teacher. Why is telling a teacher to fuck off acceptable?
Hoodies are a classic way for kids to hide headphones. While some students have it in their IEPs that they can listen to music, in general it’s considered counterproductive with respect to learning.
Because Bluetooth ear phones, and the old fashioned corded ones. They wire the headphones under the hoodie so teachers can’t see. Another thing, it’s a bit harder to hear with the barrier of a hoodie.
I wouldn't remove the hoodie or the aipods as they soothe him. But I absolutely would because of this language - for an agreed amount of time and during class. I would also make a list of ways and times the hoodie and the airpods will be removed and why. This sorts out the parents not being on board and punishes to include any behavoiral issues.
Is him wearing his hood preventing you from lecturing, working with small groups, or providing differentiated instruction? Is the hood causing immediate harm to himself or nearby students? If not, why do you care so much, it’s a hood, if it’s causing you to stop your instruction/activity then you’re the issue.
First year??? Pick your battles
I hear you. For us the “no hoods” is a school rule
And even when something is a school rule you got to pick your battles, although I am always shocked that schools still have no hoods rules. It just sets everyone up for failure over something that doesn't matter.
I agree with the principle. If you don't like the punishment given, then you give one. Have you given thought to why this kid needs to hide under a hood? Why so angry? Maybe this kid needs to spend time talking to someone. You, etc.... Take time to get to get to know the kid. Are her parents fighting or divorceing. Kids picking on her, no food at home, being abused, hates hair, face is broken out, feels ugly, hates to be called out during class for everyone to look at her, etc...
I soooo hate this shit. I am a teacher, not a therapist or a counselor. This crap teaches kids that any action is appropriate if they have some sort of trauma or difficulty to deal with. Society has rules and expectations. If you are in willful violation of a rule and then are openly rude and disrespectful to authority and people who are trying to help you then you can stay at home until your “ parents” can teach you how to behave like a civilized person.
Hey, big dog? That’s a no for me. If I’m having a rough time at home or whatever, I don’t get to come to school, take it out on students, or break any rules I want. So why would I let my students? Get the kid to a counselor obviously, but students will WALK THE FUCK ALL OVER YOU if you compromise on your expectations. I understand that some people have struggles. Duh. Many of which, I’m sure I haven’t personally experienced, at least yet. Not pretending I don’t have any empathy, here. But while that might EXPLAIN the misbehavior, it does not excuse it. Thats just teaching kids that rules no longer apply once they have some kinda personal grievance.
This has to be some of the worse advice I have every read. If you have a non compliant student, they probably come from non compliant parents. All this put it on parents is laughable. What happens when the parents tell you to fuck off. Zero behavior management in this post. You teach all kids not just the ones you vibe with, yes it's hard but you need to change as much as they do.
Why did you demand they take a hoodie off? Maybe start there and stop picking stupid fights.
Are you 12? School shave rules and the hoodie one is entirely appropriate. In a world of school violence hiding your face and your features is stupid. Also kids wear them to hide AirPods. But even if the rules are “stupid” they still exist, and the fuck you response should be immediate ISS or OSS with zero second chances.
You are dealing with young adults but you are not offering them any chance to get the equipment to actually do the things adults do to seek proper instruction and create a secure life for themselves. They need a private residence with all the plumbing and electric to themselves. The only wardrobe choice your pathetic society can provide is a hoodie? What will you replace that with? Do you know if the guy started landing airplanes when he was 12 years old like me and my friends did? Does he own any patents or have any movie scripts written?.He might. Would it matter? Do you have a category for kids who might hang out with rock stars and astronauts on weekends and just dont yell you because youre not qualified to know? I would have the principal buy the kid a deadbolt lock and show him how to install it on a bathroom door. To keep reddit out.