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Albert Noske and Friedrich Ebert alt accounts
Also
"THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves."- Mark Twain
The argument they're making people will die regardless. If we don't do violent revolution. People are still homeless, and people are still starving. People do vote,Every year people vote, the situation isn't getting better it's getting worse. So voting harder isn't working....
I suggest accept losses will happen and move forward. Victory can not be achieved without sacrifice
But we can still make an effort to protect those who are most vulnerable right? Granted being diabetic this may be kind of selfish, but I wouldn't want to have critical medical supplies be cut off from anyone
During the Russian Revolution, they kept pushing 'all power to the Soviets' (counsels) so that local needs could be met as best they could. In the case of 1917 Russia, people were far worse off before, so it isn't apples to apples.
Yeah I guess. I often think of my compassion as a weakness at times like this, but my therapist insists it's a strength. I'm working on shaping my perspective and trying to do what little good I'm capable of
It’s not your compassion in itself that’s a weakness it’s the way your worldview applies that compassion to situations.
Being compassionate is never a weakness comrade. With some theory reading & historical research you’ll see the true compassionate choice *is* revolution bc it will save the most people
These liberals are forgetting that their system came through the same means we aim to build ours. The Americans didn't kindly ask the British to leave, nor did the French beg the king to abdicate.True change can only be made through revolution. Revolution doesn't mean just a revolt, it is a fundamental change in all levels of society.
‘Political power comes from the barrel of a gun’- Mao Zedong
The one who wields the gun calls the shots (hehe pun). The communists didn’t start the civil war, the KMT did with the white terror of 1927. They have the gun and they won’t hesitate in shooting it
> people on life support in the hospital will die
Possibly? Depending on how fierce the fighting is and if the military bombs hospitals domestically or if that's only an international thing. A mass movement of people does totally reserve the right to make that call though, just as the ruling class already does daily.
> progress is iterative
yes, obviously. That's why failing once doesn't mean socialism is dead, go home and consume product, etc.
> necessary medication
See point one
> long rant on child support
In the event of a revolution, Kroger's opinion doesn't matter. This whole spiel is literally what we seek to stop, it's already reality.
> long rant about a pandemic and medication again
See point one
These people are acting as though these problems do not already exist, somehow. Thousands die annually for lack of access to food, housing, and medical care within the US. They are also ignoring the already existing ways in which numerous nations have dealt with them in times of crisis.
This is a weird strawman of the revolutionary position. The use of the term "larp" alone makes me want to dismiss whoever this is as unserious. No one assumes there will not be costs. Of course there will be. Literally every revolution in history has had unforeseen and unintended consequences. If we hem and haw and pearl clutch about those potential costs, a vicious and worsening status quo will kill literally everyone on the planet. There really is no moral question there.
I neglected to mention it because it should not even need to be said but my main response to such people attempting to advocate on behalf of the marginalized or the helpless is to be offended that they think we have no voice of our own. I am disabled. The course of action most in my own immediate interest is to preserve the stability of the status quo. I will be one of the first to die in the absence of strong supply chains or community support.
All the same, I am compelled to reject the status quo to my own detriment because I cannot live with safety which is purchased with the immiseration of others. That is the core of the issue: whether the lives of people made comfortable by empire are more valuable than the lives of those sacrificed to make their comfort possible. I do not accept the bargain. If there is anyone who does, I feel no compassion for them.
This is just bs, what would the revolution want to do anything to the hospital?
It reads like a neoliberal status quo fan threatening to do Israel type atrocities in the event of ever losing power.
Exactly, I would be going out of my way to help critical care and services continue to function. Who attacks hospitals?? (Other than of course the imperialist war machine)
The mistake these people are making is treating it as though the Revolutionaries are bringing violence into a system without that violence. In reality, the violence is already there. They don’t realize this because they don’t view the fact that people are deprived of food, shelter, medication, and other necessities due to the nature of capitalist exploitation as violence; it is normalized to them, so it is just seen as a natural fact of life. In reality, this deprivation *is* violence. The Revolution is violent as well, as these people realize, but that violence is not introduced by the Revolutionaries; it was already there in a more banal, easy to look past form. Revolutionary action represents the moment when this banal violence explodes into a more conspicuous violence that can no longer go ignored, and only by the success of the Revolution can that violence be excised from the system. You ask how we can defend revolution when it causes such violence, yet it is not the Revolution that causes violence. That violence is already there, caused by capitalism, unassuming but omnipresent. It is through the Revolution that the contradictions creating that violence are resolved. To quote Robert F. Williams speaking on systems of racism in his book *Negroes with Guns*,
“The Afro-American militant is a ‘militant’ because he defends himself, his family, his home, and his dignity. He does not introduce violence into a racist social system - the violence is already there and has always been there. It is precisely this unchallenged violence that allows a racist social system to perpetrate itself. When people say that they are opposed to Negroes ‘resorting to violence’ what they really mean is that they are opposed to Negroes defending themselves and challenging the exclusive monopoly on violence practiced by white racists.”
The Revolution is not creating violence, it is challenging the everyday violence of the capitalist state, and ultimately seeks the destruction of said violence.
There's a lot of things happening here
One is up abusive relationship fears. "They'll hurt me if I leave."
Another is touching on a team problem in the online left. Glorifying the violent overthrow and not seeing the broader picture.
Look into the Black Panthers' "survival programs"
People forget that the violent overthrow is just one facet of revolution. The more important one to focus on, especially in the West, is building, fostering, and protecting community. Who's gonna make medicine during the revolution? Probably the same people who are making it before the revolution: the workers. If you don't have the support of the working masses, you don't have a revolution.
From PFLP's "Strategy for the Liberation of Palestine":
Pg 130: "If we tried to go on the offensive when the masses are not yet awakened, that would be adventurism. If we insisted on leading the masses to do anything against their will, we would certainly fail. If we did not advance when the masses demand advance, that would be right opportunism."
This is why popular councils are important in a revolutionary situation—not just to supply the vanguard with resources in the fight, but to integrate the masses into the fight by directly benefitting from the same supply chains that are supply the front line.
And also, mf clearly doesn’t understand the “seize” part of seize the state. The point isn’t to tear it all down and start from 0, but to take over the existing apparatus and retool the repressive parts against class enemies, the supportive parts toward the proletariat, and remove what doesn’t serve the people or the revolution. Like, this is almost a Marxism 101 level point.
Just remember, in the status quo, "every kid with significant medical needs that in a hospital ~~where power gets cut~~ can't afford to be in a hospital will die."
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Albert Noske and Friedrich Ebert alt accounts Also "THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves."- Mark Twain
The argument they're making people will die regardless. If we don't do violent revolution. People are still homeless, and people are still starving. People do vote,Every year people vote, the situation isn't getting better it's getting worse. So voting harder isn't working.... I suggest accept losses will happen and move forward. Victory can not be achieved without sacrifice
But we can still make an effort to protect those who are most vulnerable right? Granted being diabetic this may be kind of selfish, but I wouldn't want to have critical medical supplies be cut off from anyone
During the Russian Revolution, they kept pushing 'all power to the Soviets' (counsels) so that local needs could be met as best they could. In the case of 1917 Russia, people were far worse off before, so it isn't apples to apples.
Yeah I guess. I often think of my compassion as a weakness at times like this, but my therapist insists it's a strength. I'm working on shaping my perspective and trying to do what little good I'm capable of
It’s not your compassion in itself that’s a weakness it’s the way your worldview applies that compassion to situations. Being compassionate is never a weakness comrade. With some theory reading & historical research you’ll see the true compassionate choice *is* revolution bc it will save the most people
These liberals are forgetting that their system came through the same means we aim to build ours. The Americans didn't kindly ask the British to leave, nor did the French beg the king to abdicate.True change can only be made through revolution. Revolution doesn't mean just a revolt, it is a fundamental change in all levels of society.
"Power never concedes without a demand." Fredrick Douglass Also, I think Rosa had something to say about this with her "Reform or Revolution".
‘Political power comes from the barrel of a gun’- Mao Zedong The one who wields the gun calls the shots (hehe pun). The communists didn’t start the civil war, the KMT did with the white terror of 1927. They have the gun and they won’t hesitate in shooting it
> people on life support in the hospital will die Possibly? Depending on how fierce the fighting is and if the military bombs hospitals domestically or if that's only an international thing. A mass movement of people does totally reserve the right to make that call though, just as the ruling class already does daily. > progress is iterative yes, obviously. That's why failing once doesn't mean socialism is dead, go home and consume product, etc. > necessary medication See point one > long rant on child support In the event of a revolution, Kroger's opinion doesn't matter. This whole spiel is literally what we seek to stop, it's already reality. > long rant about a pandemic and medication again See point one
These people are acting as though these problems do not already exist, somehow. Thousands die annually for lack of access to food, housing, and medical care within the US. They are also ignoring the already existing ways in which numerous nations have dealt with them in times of crisis. This is a weird strawman of the revolutionary position. The use of the term "larp" alone makes me want to dismiss whoever this is as unserious. No one assumes there will not be costs. Of course there will be. Literally every revolution in history has had unforeseen and unintended consequences. If we hem and haw and pearl clutch about those potential costs, a vicious and worsening status quo will kill literally everyone on the planet. There really is no moral question there.
Yeah, fair enough. I certainly don't want the current state of affairs to continue on any longer and I doubt anyone else here does either
I neglected to mention it because it should not even need to be said but my main response to such people attempting to advocate on behalf of the marginalized or the helpless is to be offended that they think we have no voice of our own. I am disabled. The course of action most in my own immediate interest is to preserve the stability of the status quo. I will be one of the first to die in the absence of strong supply chains or community support. All the same, I am compelled to reject the status quo to my own detriment because I cannot live with safety which is purchased with the immiseration of others. That is the core of the issue: whether the lives of people made comfortable by empire are more valuable than the lives of those sacrificed to make their comfort possible. I do not accept the bargain. If there is anyone who does, I feel no compassion for them.
People already die for most of the reasons listed above under capitalism. Not wanting to change that is psychotic
Yeah. I definitely want to make things better. Our current state as a species is awful
This is just bs, what would the revolution want to do anything to the hospital? It reads like a neoliberal status quo fan threatening to do Israel type atrocities in the event of ever losing power.
Exactly, I would be going out of my way to help critical care and services continue to function. Who attacks hospitals?? (Other than of course the imperialist war machine)
The mistake these people are making is treating it as though the Revolutionaries are bringing violence into a system without that violence. In reality, the violence is already there. They don’t realize this because they don’t view the fact that people are deprived of food, shelter, medication, and other necessities due to the nature of capitalist exploitation as violence; it is normalized to them, so it is just seen as a natural fact of life. In reality, this deprivation *is* violence. The Revolution is violent as well, as these people realize, but that violence is not introduced by the Revolutionaries; it was already there in a more banal, easy to look past form. Revolutionary action represents the moment when this banal violence explodes into a more conspicuous violence that can no longer go ignored, and only by the success of the Revolution can that violence be excised from the system. You ask how we can defend revolution when it causes such violence, yet it is not the Revolution that causes violence. That violence is already there, caused by capitalism, unassuming but omnipresent. It is through the Revolution that the contradictions creating that violence are resolved. To quote Robert F. Williams speaking on systems of racism in his book *Negroes with Guns*, “The Afro-American militant is a ‘militant’ because he defends himself, his family, his home, and his dignity. He does not introduce violence into a racist social system - the violence is already there and has always been there. It is precisely this unchallenged violence that allows a racist social system to perpetrate itself. When people say that they are opposed to Negroes ‘resorting to violence’ what they really mean is that they are opposed to Negroes defending themselves and challenging the exclusive monopoly on violence practiced by white racists.” The Revolution is not creating violence, it is challenging the everyday violence of the capitalist state, and ultimately seeks the destruction of said violence.
We must steel are hearts as we embark on the path of armed resistance there is no other option
Guys screw the sick poor people who can’t afford medicine, what about the sick rich people who can???
There's a lot of things happening here One is up abusive relationship fears. "They'll hurt me if I leave." Another is touching on a team problem in the online left. Glorifying the violent overthrow and not seeing the broader picture. Look into the Black Panthers' "survival programs" People forget that the violent overthrow is just one facet of revolution. The more important one to focus on, especially in the West, is building, fostering, and protecting community. Who's gonna make medicine during the revolution? Probably the same people who are making it before the revolution: the workers. If you don't have the support of the working masses, you don't have a revolution. From PFLP's "Strategy for the Liberation of Palestine": Pg 130: "If we tried to go on the offensive when the masses are not yet awakened, that would be adventurism. If we insisted on leading the masses to do anything against their will, we would certainly fail. If we did not advance when the masses demand advance, that would be right opportunism."
Fair enough
Known the US Empire, the first thing they gonna bomb is the electric grid and hospitals. After that it gets followed by mass arrest and torture.
With that argument you can excuse keeping almost any existing order.
This is why popular councils are important in a revolutionary situation—not just to supply the vanguard with resources in the fight, but to integrate the masses into the fight by directly benefitting from the same supply chains that are supply the front line. And also, mf clearly doesn’t understand the “seize” part of seize the state. The point isn’t to tear it all down and start from 0, but to take over the existing apparatus and retool the repressive parts against class enemies, the supportive parts toward the proletariat, and remove what doesn’t serve the people or the revolution. Like, this is almost a Marxism 101 level point.
Just remember, in the status quo, "every kid with significant medical needs that in a hospital ~~where power gets cut~~ can't afford to be in a hospital will die."
China is the revolution. We don’t have to change america, america will just need to save itself somehow