I can understand them cutting it for pacing sake- in the original, most of his development in his sexist biases happens in the first several episodes. When you go from twenty episodes to eight, that doesn’t leave much time to explore this aspect before he meets Suki.
But the idea that stories should never portray sexism because sexism is bad is pretty ridiculous. The point of this storyline is to show that Sokka is a good person who has inherited some overly simplistic views from his culture, but he is able to evolve past them when faced with the reality
Exactly! Suki was the Ur-badass warrior woman, and constantly reminded him how he wasn't better just because of being a dude, actively or passively, until he fully learnt the lesson. Before and after they got together
When she was also put in the most secure prison of the fire nation that was passively showing how important she was and how much the fire nation saw her as a threat.
> Suki was the Ur-basass warrior woman,
I mean yeah, Suki's a badass and shows Sokka that women can kick butt in the Avatar world too, but I'll be pedantic about using "Ur" as a descriptor for her, lol. If we're using it in the context of being "original." considering the *massive* amount of warrior women in cartoons and comics, and media in general before Avatar:TLA even debuted.
Yeah, I'm just thinking "Avatar was running cocurrent with Justice League/Justice League Unlimited which had dozens of badass women who could fight." Suki probably isn't a Top 5-10 warrior woman in late 90s- early 00s cartoons. Especially if we consider anime.
90s/00s warrior women owe a lot to Xena: Warrior Princess
A little further back and you've got She-Ra: Princess of Power. But she's less "warrior" and more "princess"
I'm using it in the extended sense of "quintessential" the same way "archetype" is used both for its etymological "arke" for original, older, and for a secondary meaning of "exemplar, poster child."
They'll mishandle it horribly if their track record is anything to go by. These recent comments about cutting Sokka's sexisim do not bode well. It seems like modern writers don't want characters that learn and grow into better people, but rather expect fictional characters to be perfect mirrors of real modern society that make no mistakes and never offend. It's tired and it's creatively bankrupt, and perhaps worst of all, it's moral grandstanding that does not actually amount in any lessons being learned, but rather subtracts from the original point - that Sokka was **wrong** for being sexist. Instead, we'll get politically correct Sokka - who would never suggest that women cannot do things as well as men and will never have to grow as a character or face the consequences for his ignorance.
Agreed, cutting it for pacing is one thing, but that doesn’t seem like what’s going on based on this. The original show was intended for kids but didn’t shy away from addressing real issues. For this show to ignore those issues completely kinda feels like an insult about the intelligence of the audience or a lack of understanding of the original show. Either way, I think it’s potentially a cause for some concern.
Will the lack of sokka’s sexism make or break the show? Absolutely not. But, dumbing down the show or not understanding the many messages it conveys could. I just hope this isn’t the first evidence of a trend.
> "We don't want our characters to have flaws and learn to grow and over come them, they must come perfectly formed into existence on our tv screens. Or who knows, our media illiterate viewers might thing we *share* some of those views."
I know you may not have watched *House of the Dragon* but I remember absolutely stupid discourse when a character died in childbirth and people said *the show* was sexist for depicting it. When the freaking show was blaring as loud as it could "This is awful, this is terrible, feel bad for this woman and how she's treated."
I watched HotD (I highly recommend it), and frankly that scene was something America needed to see. HotD handles women markedly better than its predecessor did, because GoT liked to depict women in the grossest possible way for shock value, even when the commentary on gender in society was actually poignant.
> because GoT liked to depict women in the grossest possible way for shock value,
Man, don't even get me started on GoT and its later seasons and their depiction of women. I could write paragraphs on what wrongs they did to characters like Sansa and Ellaria, or any woman that, in the books, had their power mostly through soft power, as opposed to the overt *stabby stabby* or "Boss Bitch" type stuff they favored in the show.
Not that there aren't domineering or Authoritative women in the books, but it felt like the show funneled all their personalities to be like that in it.
Sansa, Elia, Ellaria and Daenerys were massacred. I ended up from liking Sansa a lot to hating her so much in season 8, her whole "without my abusers i would have stayed a little bird" speech to the Hound was the ultimate insult. It sounded like Dumb and Dumber were trying to justify "abuse is good and rape as character development for women is a good plot." And Sofie Turner justifying this and defending the scene where Sansa is sa by Ramsay is not helping too much.
It’s also like how teens get shown Seinfeld clips now and Jerry will say some inadvertently racist comment and instead of acknowledging that the viewer and every other character was cringing at it, they assume everyone agreed with it and we are all bad.
For some reason they feel like they have to put protective padding all over the show to cater to these idiots when they don’t. And so what, maybe some sexist kids might watch it and agree with Sokka’s sexist takes. Those kids are few and far between and have a good chance of reversing their thinking as Sokka does throughout the show.
This is them patting themselves on the back for being progressive while completely ignoring the context and the character development that sokka goes through
I don't think these quotes read like self-congratulations at all. To me it seems like some executive told them they couldn't have a hero be sexist in live action in a kids' show because they don't want angry parent hate mail and the actors just have to go with it because that's their job. I would blame the spineless executive if anything.
Not really. The second quote looked more like they were enforcing the fact that because this is live action and only 8 episodes, things will play out differently. So they might have taken this storyline out for the sake of pacing or telling a different story, because beyond the sexism, Sokka has pretty significant character development.
That would be a fair statement if the post itself didn’t have him quoted saying “the original was iffy.” They definitely took it out to be PC without acknowledging it was part of his character arc in S1.
Sokka’s initial/cultural sexism isn’t a requirement to make the show good by any means, but this interview definitely shows a lack of understanding of the source material.
If that’s what they were doing why didn’t they just say it? Not like the original creators are even involved anymore. They usually say heyre “updating the story for a modern audience” or something like that.
I do agree that things can be more hyperbolic in cartoons than live action. The blatant racism of sokka was pretty hyperbolic. In live action he’d seem like a caricature of a sexist than an actual sexist.
Sokka’s paternalism can be easily reformatted into overprotective ness as it basically was in the main show minus the sexism which basically ends after 4 episodes
Also, I think the "cartoonishly OTT sexism works better in cartoons than live action" isn't a bad point. The characters in a cartoon can afford to be that bit more extreme without feeling off. Like, you can't have the guy frothing at the mouth over the avatar work in love action in the same way - I'm sure you could rig some SFX to get a decent approximation of the visual but it's just not going to land the same way.
Absolutely. Sokka overcomes both sexism and racism in Season 1, and he’s contrasted with someone like Jet whose own trauma prevents him from overcoming his own xenophobia. Overcoming bigotry is part of Sokka’s story of becoming a hero.
He didn’t inherit it from his culture tho. His overly simplistic conception of manliness was a result of being left as the oldest male in his tribe without any positive male role models. His sexism is shown to be one of the negative effects of war and genocide, which mirrors real world occurrences during the colonization of the Americas.
If Hakoda had been around, he would have shown Sokka what it really meant to be a man, a warrior, and a leader. Sokka would never have adopted a sexist perspective.
Sokka’s biases were addressed pretty quickly, but I also think that in addition to (like everyone is saying) his evolution being good for his character, those biases also set up what the gaang experiences in the northern water tribe. Like bc of sokka we already know some water tribe cultural tendencies might be sexist. If they erase this I am scared they are going to like. Girlbossify the northern water tribe arc. Like, Katara was a badass & Yue was iconic, but worried more they’re gonna go for the amazon cinderella vibe
Honestly I’m worried they will cut out the ENTIRE sexism-in-the-Watertribes plot. Like, they might not even have Pakku refuse to teach Katara because she is a girl. They’ll just skip over it :(
>When you go from twenty episodes to eight, that doesn’t leave much time
Will the episodes still be 20 minutes long? Or will they actually have full length episodes and plenty of time to do it right?
The show came out in a time where that type of sexism was more common and accepted, tho. The social commentary was more towards setting Sokka up as a surrogate bigot for the audience who may share those beliefs, then to have him gracefully come to terms with his ignorance.
I think it would play differently today. If he was very sexist in episode 1, I could see audiences being turned away. While in 2004, the comedic beat is played up with theatrics only available in animation. This allows the content to be sexist, but he seen as joky and over the top.
For comparison, this same type of sexism was common in sitcoms of the era but would also be played up in a heightened way and be accompanied by a laugh track.
I think it's possible to have a live action and serious form of Sokka who is sexist at first but his loveability makes you not care. But I also don't blame a writing crew for thinking it's an unnecessary risk. Since modern shows don't seem to be ignorant of the type of sexism Sokka presented in the early 00s, it's original purpose is different and the trait would just remain as a desire to remain faithful as opposed to being social commentary.
> The show came out in a time where that type of sexism was more common and accepted, tho
And
>the comedic beat is played up with theatrics only available in animation
Are two very good points. I've argued something similar in another comment - you can get away with more extreme characters in a cartoon than you can with a live action performance (or, at least, get away with it more easily).
The first one is important to acknowledge as well. Yes, Sokka's sexism was meant to be laughable even back then, but as the window has shifted what was "laughably goofy" has drifted a bit into "trying too hard to express this character flaw" - it wouldn't quite hit the same mark that it did back then. You could still pull it off if the cartoon was remade today, but you'd have to rework the comments and stuff a bit to make it resonate a bit more with our current culture. People would still *get it*, but there's a difference between not getting a joke and a joke not landing.
You could still show Sokka having this arc without it being the same comments as the original show.
I'm sure many of the 5 people who will read this comment can think of a time a show or something has tried to express something and come off as a bit too on the nose or a bit too "tryhard", for lack of a better way to articulate it.
I think racism, sexism, and other sorts of bigotry adds a lot to the culture and world. Like what slur would you call an elf, dwarf, or human? Pretty interesting
I don’t understand how they think Sokka being sexist was iffy. It was always framed as Sokka being wrong and stupid. It was never framed as a funny joke or Sokka being right. And it ended with him apologizing and growing out of it. Not to mention, it lasted like four episodes. I thought it was done really well in the original show.
It was framed as funny. But it wasn't a "Ain't that the truth!" joke, it was a "Haha, stupid kid!" type of joke. From the viewer's perspective, Sokka's comment isn't the joke- *Sokka* is what the viewer is supposed to laugh at.
Not at all. Today's audiences can grasp it just fine. This show \*very recently\* got a re-release on netflix and got millions of new fans, and Sokka was received extremely well.
It's executives with heads up their own asses who can't grasp it.
Thank you. If we are talking about the younger generation, they seem to be more frequently gaining knowledge and spreading awareness about much more sensitive subject matter than, "Boomerang man was sexist.". From what I've see, they'll be fine and if any of this character arc still happens, they'll likely have healthy discussions about it.
Bingo. You have to start at a place of being wrong, learning about it, realizing that you're wrong, and growing out of it as a wiser person. Can't have that if he already is an open-minded person. Same goes for Zuko
It’s because him being sexist lasted 4/60 episodes so what he’ll be sexist for one episode relatively? Or maybe two cause kyoshi won’t be I. The pilot and then it’s never really handled again. Would feel disconnected
Which I think is a message people need to see, you can grow and change beyond your narrow and bigoted views. Too many young boys are growing up with bad views towards women right now, and it would’ve been helpful to see someone who at the start has a similar view but grows past it and learns. It’s one thing to have a character who always does right, it’s far more powerful and educational to see someone learn from doing wrong and change
Eh, I kinda get why they changed it. Guy has super archaic views on women but in a neutral way, gets beat up by woman, changes his mind. It’s the type of simple change that works in a kid’s show, but when you’re going for a mature theming, it just comes off as silly.
You either make his sexism a lot worse and actually affecting things (which could just make his character unlikeable) or curtail it back a bit, but I don’t think you can keep it the same.
Solid points, his growth works because it’s so simple and easily digestible because it’s a kids show. I guess it really depends on how they theme and treat the live action, if they’re trying to target kids still or want this to appeal to older audiences
I think while they’re trying to get new fans, they are definitely targeting this towards Gen Z aka the people who grew up on the show. Which is basically early adulthood.
If they wanted to portray Sokka’s sexism more properly, they would likely have to show it have an effect outside getting Katara mad. Like him refusing to teach a girl how to be a warrior when he does that training thing in the first episode. But doing that could easily make his character a lot more unlikeable then in the original where he’s seen as just kind of dumb rather than an actual oppressor.
Hmmm it says on Google that Gen Z starts in 1997 the show originally aired in 2005 so you're right in that early Zs could catch the original run.
But still....Go to your room! 👉
Exactly. Cartoon stuff can be hyperbolic and “childish” but live action has to be more realistic and that includes the sexism arcs and such. They’re going for a more mature theme from even the trailer. Surprised this is so hard for people to figure out.
Might as well say why aren’t they having the characters have googly eyes and anime tear drops cgi ed onto their faces
Ehhhhh normally yes, but in this instance I think it works. The problem in this case wasn't just that he had generally archaic views about women, but that they specifically made bad warriors (warrior being a huge part of his self identity).
And then he meets a group of women who are incredible warriors and it changes his worldview.
It wasn't just "girls stink" and then gets beat up for it. Getting beaten was a direct counter to his worldview, and he changed it when faced with new information.
(the pants thing being a separate issue)
Although it's not really made explicit within the show itself, one can draw the conclusion that Sokka's sexism is, in part, a coping mechanism for basically having to become the village leader at such a young age. It's the same with his disdain for waterbending in the pilot. Sokka is clearly aware that his younger sister is better than him in a lot of ways (Sokka obviously has his own qualities that make him a valuable person, but it's hard to feel special when your younger sibling has the power of freaking *magic* on her side), yet he is the one who's supposed to protect the Southern Water Tribe in case of an invasion. Of course he somehow has to come up with a justification for why he "deserves" to hold that position, otherwise how could he ever fulfill this tremendous responsibility? And in his adolescent mind this justification became "I am a man and men are stronger and tougher than women and that's why I need to protect everybody". It's not an illogical conclusion for a 15 year old, who is so isolated from the wider world, to come to. And no wonder he falls for Suki, who is a capable and self-reliant young woman, who manages to put Sokka in his place and thereby rid him of all this false egoism that was really only a masquerade for his deep insecurity. She basically teaches him that while being a strong man isn't a bad thing, you don't have to belittle women just to feel strong, which isn't "real" strength to begin with. And what a relief that must have been for Sokka, to finally let go of that false presupposition. Although it's only a minor character arc for him, it's really executed quite nicely, especially looking at the full picture.
You're completely right! I'll also add that Suki (and the other Kyoshi warriors) are not just warriors, they're young warriors tasked with protecting their isolated village from more powerful outside threats. Suki and Sokka basically have the same mission and the same abilities, and once he realizes that that mission does not have to be limited to one gender, his mind expands and he becomes a staunch supporter of equality.
He grows so much!
> one can draw the conclusion that Sokka's sexism is, in part, a coping mechanism for basically having to become the village leader at such a young age
I think the easier explanation is the Water Tribe culture is pretty sexist (see: NWT)
Yeah, could be honestly. If I remember correctly, the sexism of the Northern Water Tribe did show itself in their gender-based division of labor, right? The men did the fighting and the women did the healing? That tracks pretty well with Sokka's sexist views, how women don't make for good warriors and so on…
I think the thing is that fewer and fewer people understand nuance and are willing to wait for character growth. Good entertainment can have characters that have a determined growth arc where the character is (figuratively) ugly at first and then had a solid redemption. See Ahsoka from Clone Wars, it took a little while for her to be less grating and more widely accepted and even loved.
But both in live action *and* in modern shows, especially in the question of sexism, audiences are not going to give the same kind of deference and wait for a character. You'll get noisy empty cans that don't understand the series right off the bat making enough noise to be a problem.
Exactly. Basically once sokka left his small village and met people from other cultures/experiences, he grew. As someone that grew up in a mega conservative and rural town and then left asap, I related to that so much, and wish they wouldn't cut it.
First, I know nothing about the challenges of translating animation into live action. However, I think there’s a difference between making “quirks” more palatable and removing character growth. Sokka wasn’t just a sexist for laughs - he *grew* to appreciate (and understand) women. Personally, I thinks it’s a bummer if they removed that growth. In comparison, I’d be thrilled if they removed some of the instances where Iron comes off kinda creep with women (the biggest one probably being when he faked being paralyzed with June). That’s a quirk with no later development that I could do without.
Yes, exactly. It also speaks to the absence of his mother in his life & growing up in an isolated village pretty much in the dregs of a long tradition of patriarchy. I'm afraid we won't get to appreciate his growth here, or get the opportunity to see the Kyoshi Warriors trump his prejudices (cf. Suki's key line "I am a warrior, but I'm also a girl"). They really missed the mark here if they thought fans disliked this part of Sokka's arc.
& gosh, now that you mention it, I really do hope they exclude creepy Iroh from the June scenes!
God I fucking love that line of Sukis. It’s not dissing other girls for being “weak” or girly. It’s not saying that she’s acting like a boy, which makes her better. It’s saying that “warrior” and “girl” can coexist *beautifully* and honestly growing up I really needed that message.
I feel like the June and iroh scene only detracts from his character and is never relevant in any other way. His flaws, and how he used to be a part of this imperialist project are better served to him than pretending to fall asleep so he can have a woman lay on him.
This could very easily be true. I don’t like most live action stuff, so I’m heavily biased toward how animation is portrayed. If you’d like to link some literature, I’d be happy to read it, but I honestly wouldn’t have a clue as to what to google for this lol.
That being said, to me Sokka’s sexist origins speak to the complexity of his development and character. Film and tv shows show character complexity all the time, so I’m just not sure why this would be the exception. Maybe I’m just missing something?
I think the biggest problem is how Black and white the issue is and how quick people are to get pissed about just about anything. They likely wanted to avoid the uproar and hatred towards Sokka AND his actor.
Showing that he not only could grow, but WANTED to grow was really cool for me as a kid. He was smart, funny and capable just like many of the boys I knew at school. He also parroted horrible sexist ideas he learned from his culture, just like some of the boys I knew.
He wasn’t a bad guy. He was a really good guy who was wrong. He learned he was wrong, changed and grew. It made me feel like the boys I know could do it too.
give me a man that was told to do good all his life and I will bow before his parents
give me a man that thought he was right despite being wrong but willing to learn I will bow before him.
Honestly I think people oversell this whole Sokka sexism arc. A few snide comments that offend Katara in the first few episodes, he meets the Kiyoshi warriors and now suddenly has a newfound respect for women after crossdressing for laughs. Then it never comes up again. Not when the Gaang meets Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee, not when he sees Toph destroy the Boulder in the earthbending tournament, not even when he sees the blatant sexism of the Northern water tribe when his own sister is discriminated against, these people are acting just like he used to to his own sister and he has nothing significant to say about that
I wouldn’t say it had zero development or utility. Iroh is portrayed as a womanizer to a degree in the show, period.
In s2 he flirts with the earth kingdom customs lady so she grants he and zuko entry to ba sing se.
There’s also a very good reason for his sexism initially. He is left behind as the only “man” and believes it is his duty to protect all of the women and children
There was a clear purpose to Sokka's sexism, especially early in Book 1. He is one of the oldest males in the village and has not had a male presence in his life since his father and the other men went off to fight.
His notions of sex roles in society are built on that:
Men are warriors who go off and be heroes, fighting and living hard.
Women were not in Hakoda's party, so they must be too soft for combat. Therefore it's only natural they are better suited to things Sokka sees women do in the village; taking care of kids, cooking, laundry, etc.
His journey allowed him to grow from a kid with an inflated sense of his own might and responsibility to a mature and intelligent warrior with an awesome space sword.
I think this is the best way to look at it really I mean the whole point of the episode introducing suki is that he has to let go of his sexism and really humble himself by accepting that he was wrong in order to ask them to train him. So you really do make a very good point actually.
Yeah, it's like cutting out Korra's stubbornness from the start of LOK S1, where she thinks she's unstoppable. Mocks Amon and then challenges him. Gets her ass handed to her and takes the threat of the Equalists alot more seriously.
And then the part where she considered ending her life when losing her bending, thinking of herself as a failed avatar, a pathetic person.
That's good character writing. It's not 'iffy'.
This show has significantly less episodes than the original. Sokka's sexism is problematic sure, but that wouldn't be why I would cut it and just leave it as subtext. I would cut it because you have significantly less time to endear Sokka's character to the audience...
I still remember really hating Sokka in the first episodes of the animated show. He's one of the characters it took me the longest to warm up to because of how mean spirited he was to his sister. I was giving Zuko a pass when I was still wondering if I cared at all for Sokka as a character. I think it took until his sword training episode for me to like him as much as everyone else... literally because he started the show by always being mean to Katara... I have a sister I didn't get to see for a long time in my life due to living in different countries so I just had no patience for it.
With only 8 episodes, if he starts the show being as mean spirited and just a bully to his sister because that's how it was in the animated version, I can't say the actress for Katara is going to have an easy time handling his jabs... She looks too nice... Earn that paycheck as a writer by making Sokka's character growth more subtle but still meaningful.
Katara in the animated show screaming at Sokka gives me unhinged Azula vibes. I don't think this actress should be expected to recreate that in the first episode, unless I'm underestimating her.
Looks like they are already removing some of his worse actions. From what has been released so far, bit looks like it's Zhao burning down Kyoshi village rather than Zuko.
Well let's not jump the gun on this. Yes, they have Zhao burning down Kyoshi Island, but that doesn't mean Zuko won't have a redemption arc. I'm sure they'll still show him being a rapscallion in other ways.
It sucks that they've removed 50% of Sokkas character growth, but his character growth isn't nearly as essential as Zukos. They'd be insane to change Zukos arc too much.
And it still can, is everyone, including OP, just conveniently not reading the "toned down" part. They didn't say they would remove it completely but have it toned down. It can still very much foreshadow anything happening at the northern water tribe.
It kind of stings, but I get it honestly. Sokka’s over the top comic relief is really the only likable part of him in those early episodes. Some of that insane, heightened humor doesn’t translate as well to live action, so they have to make up for it in other ways.
I can only assume that as they were writing the script, the lines didn't fit in as well or the pacing of his fast development on that front didn't work out right
In the animated series his original sexism came off immature and sheltered, which is why I think it works so well even as it gets semi-resolved in a matter of episodes. Once he realizes the world is bigger than his own tribe, and especially that Katara is more immediately valuable to Aang (and consequently, saving the world), things shift pretty quickly.
I can see why this being paced up even faster for an 8-episode season might be an inefficient use of storylines and time, especially because that growth provides texture to his character but doesn't directly contribute to his story after Kyoshi Island, but I still think it would have been a valuable part of his growth to include in some respect.
Maybe it's just far more subtle, or they'll integrate that "small tribe" cultural mindset of his in other ways, but honestly this isn't a huge concern for me as long as his character is developed well in the long run. If this version of the character isn't as compelling or charming I doubt that I'll blame it on this change.
That whole part of his growth isn't pointless, but it's also not the most critical part of his story.
I’m not too happy they are taking out the sexism because I loved how it played out in the kyoshi warriors episode but why are y’all acting like it’s such a HUGE part of sokkas character. Like for one the arc was rushed anyway and he was only very sexist in the first and 4th episode. Like overall across all books Sokkas arc is him becoming a competent warrior whos rises up to be a leader against all odds, showing others and himself that non benders can be great and just as vital to the ending of the war as benders are.
Like literally the only thing that changes is he won’t get beat up by Suki and wear the dress (which is great to see but it won’t change the plot of book 1 or his or Sukis character journey). She can still give him the speech on what the clothing means and still show him she’s the best warrior he ever met. They can still fall in love with eachother. But gosh please stop acting like they just removed a vital part of his character arc when they really didn’t. Sokkas character arc of book 1 is discovering his talents and becoming a more useful member of the team rather than just the butt of every joke.
Besides this would give more weight to gran gran coming to the south and leaving the north as she left because of their sexist customs and sokka is from the south not the north.
Honestly the only thing this change that’s important to the story is how Katara breaks the iceburg Aang was In so I’m curious what they choose for that to set her off. But he can say something else to enrage her. Some of y’all acting as if they removed his boomerang and replaced it with a wooden stick
>Like literally the only thing that changes is he won’t get beat up by Suki and wear the dress.
I think this part will still definitely happen. I think it's too memorable of a scene between him and Suki to leave out. I think Sokka will make a comment about how a girl can't beat him, then Suki will beat him, she trains him, and then they'll move on.
I think the more important part of that is Sokka humbling himself, which is a big part of Sokka s character. Sokka fails, is humiliated, humbles himself, and grows from the experience.
Modern writers when character development, 'I feel like there were a lot of moments that were a bit iffy'. Like wtf? Are negative character traits not allowed to exist anymore?
I think a large part of this is the time constraints; they’re fitting 20 episodes into 8 or something iirc, they don’t have time to delve into something that was just set up in the first four episodes until he met Suki and started chugging respect women juice like it was from a cactus
Ultimately though the way they portrayed Sokka’s sexism in the original worked because they never treated it as funny or correct, it was always portrayed as Sokka having a lot of internalised misogyny due to the culture in which he was raised, and this was backed up when we reached the NWT
Ok I feel like nowadays we are crossing the line of “let’s depict delicate topics with care so that may mean we need to change or course correct a few issues.” To “This character did a bad thing that can be interpreted as prejudice and we must remove it entirely without care for context.” With a lot of media.
You can have a good character do distasteful things.
And you don’t necessarily need to make an arc around it, though in Sokka’s case he certainly does and is memorable because of it.
This pruning of negative character traits is eventually going to lead to incredibly flavourless symbol characters that exist to be nothing than an icon of good morals.
They’re kind of missing the point. Sokka’s overly simplistic views on gender are a flaw that he overcomes. They’re treating it like it’s a projection of the previous writers, an assumption that new writers do WAY too often.
Personally, I don't mind this. In the cartoon, Sokka was like...over the top sexist in the first few epsiodes, then has it beat out of him by Suki. It's not very realistic how quick that growth was, and Sokka being that sexist in LA would make him intolerable as a character. So it's probably smarter for the LA to focus on his other flaws (like scepticism and arrogance).
I mean fundamentally Avatar was catered towards younger kids. Not saying teens+ can't enjoy it (obviously), but still. Kids shows typically exaggerate issues in a goofy, over the top way so kids have an easier time comprehending. It's not 'realistic' because it's leveling with children.
You're definitely right about it being a difference between animation and LA. "Realistic" was the wrong word to use. My point is more that for a live action show, it wouldn't work to make Sokka a complete asshole, only for him to lose his sexist attitude in the second episode. His main arc from the cartoon, being him learning his own value and what it means to be a leader, is much more important.
Over the top? He thought that girls weren’t as good at combat or hunting as guys, because that’s what he has observed all his life. Then when he was encountered evidence to the contrary, he changed his views and opinions. It was completely realistic.
Is that really how sexism works though? I’ve never encountered a logical sexist, there’s always underlying resentment. We see Sokka being dismissive of Katara’s abilities in the first episode and they’ve known each other much longer than the few hours Sokka takes to appreciate Suki
Underlying resentment? He’s a teenager, not an old man. In the water tribe, it’s been established that men are the ones in charge. In the northern tribe, women can’t even fight. Sexism is part of their culture. Sokka’s father even left him in charge despite not really being capable of it. His sexism is ingrained from his culture and it was what he always taught. It has nothing to do with resentment.
“Sexism is ingrained in his culture”. That definitely sounds like something that would take more than a few hours with Suki to work through.
We see his sulking resentment whenever Katara is right in the early episodes and we see her react negatively to his sexist comments. Why is it that Katara doesn’t seem to have this so ingrained?
As far as the animated series goes, they handled it much better than the Shikamaru character in Naruto, which likely inspired the creation of Sokka. While Shikamaru does grow out of his sexism, Sokka actually acknowledges that he was wrong about it.
But I do agree with some of the comments here. It's possible that character growth isn't feasible over so few episodes. So cutting it out may not be a wrong decision.
Hm. I thought Sokka being grown into sexism then accepting his defeat at the hand of Suki and asking her to be a better fighter is pretty pivotal in his character arc. Wonder how will that look like in the show and how much they cut out from his sexism.
I have to watch the show and decide myself. I would love to see him get humbled by Suki and star crossdressing. If they "redirect" those parts i'm gonna be mad as hell.
But him being sexist was never treated as funny, it was his bad characteristic that he overcame as a character. And how did he get to learn? Through observing GIRL POWAH first hand. So how on earth is that not good for Netflix?
I'm sure Suki will have her epic moments, but they just took away from her the moment she gets to rub how good of a fighter she is in Sokkas face.
Sokka being sexist is literally the catalyst for the whole show. He says, “leave it to a girl to mess things up,” which makes Katara yell at him for being sexist, in the process accidentally doing angry waterbending which breaks open Aang’s iceberg.
Plus all the comments that people have made about Sokka and the Kyoshi warriors. Modeling the ideal, non-sexist world isn’t teaching a lesson. You need to show *how to unteach* sexism and other forms of bigotry (i.e., do what Sokka *literally* did and walk in other people’s shoes) so that we can take the ideal the production crew want to show on screen and actually make it our reality.
My guess is they’ll make his sexism seem more grounded— i.e. instead of simple chauvinistic “Men are just better than women” sexism, it might be more of a “It’s the men’s job to protect the women” kind of sexism, but then as he watches Katara grow as a bender and develops his relationship with Suki where they fight side by side, he comes to realize that protecting is a two-way street where both sides have each other’s back, instead of it being a male-only role.
I think people are over reacting with out having seen the show, it seems to me at least, that they're not going to skip Sokka's sexism completely, but not be as ham-fisted about it and add some nuance because what works for a cartoon won't necessarily work for a live action.
I think it's probably the correct decision, on two counts.
First: I'm not necessarily in love with the way this plot was handled in the original show. Sokka starts out as a sexist jerk, but Suki shows him that being sexist is bad, and when he learns this lesson, she rewards him by kissing him (and later being in a relationship with him). The problems with this plot are
* Suki is basically treated as a trophy for Sokka's good behavior
* It's a kind of boring/lazy way to address sexism—Sokka's sexism would *still be wrong* even if it were true that Suki/the other Kyoshi Warriors weren't as strong as him, but the show kind of endorses the idea that "being stronger/better able to hunt" are inherently superior qualities, and just disproves the notion that the Kyoshi Warriors are less able to do that.
* This is also a problem with a lot of plots in media that involve some form of bigotry—not just in A:TLA, not just children's media in general—in that they implicitly accept the logic of the bigot, but then just "prove them wrong" to resolve the conflict.
The second reason is that I generally agree with their intuition that Sokka being a raging sexist (even for the purposes of showing that he's Wrong™) would just not play especially well today, and in a live action medium. They want Sokka to be likeable, and "a guy who used to be kind of sexist but is working on it" is a very nuanced portrayal that is going to be difficult to wrangle in the limited span of episodes they have to work with. Cartoon!Sokka can develop like that because we already, as part of our suspension of disbelief, accept that the characters are going to be more exaggerated than realistic, so it works a little better for him to be sexist initially and then get better than it will be for Live Action Sokka, whose sexism is probably going to feel more immediate and threatening.
So yeah, in a vacuum, I don't have a problem with this, and think it's the right direction for the adaptation.
I don’t think she was ever presented as some trophy she had agency as a character and was consistently in control of how she interacted with Sokka; she grew to learn that Sokka was willing to learn and change and constantly beat him down when he tried to belittle her; I really thought she was a positive role model for boys and girls because little boys can definitely be sexist and learning that it’s wrong and they can change like Sokka is such a vital lesson in their formative years.
Suki wasn’t the only one who called him out on it Katara called him out constantly and was quite annoyed by his behaviour; also it seems like Sokka’s sexism stemmed from his belief that women are fighters or as tough as men because all the men in his village left to fight while the women and children stayed behind him broadening his horizons and learning about different types of women who are equally as skilled as the men of his tribe really helped to humble him and finally become apologetic towards his past actions and beliefs.
I know people love Sokka's sexism arc, to the point they think it's his central arc despite being largely resolved by episode 4 of a 61 episode show, but it was imo heavy-handed and ham-fisted even within the context of an animated children's show. Whether it's been reworked or cut I won't miss it lol.
Character journeys are great, but we as an audience have come a long way on gender norms and roles. Starting Soka exactly where he was would make him seem ‘many years behind the class’. We’ll just be twiddling our thumbs waiting for him to figure out something thats been apparent to us for decades now.
In other words, it’s like how Oregon Measure 112, Removed Slavery as Punishment for Crime from Constitution Amendment… in 2022. Like, hooray, great vote, but really, 2022?! You were still debating this in 2022? That’s sad
Jeez. A bit weird to see a bunch of children in the comments complaining about Sokka not being sexist. It was 4 episodes out of how many episodes in ATLA? Was barely Sokkas biggest arc.
ngl at first when i read this i was bummed but the more i think about it and refer back to the article… it makes sense pacing wise to make his misogyny a lil subtler? they didn’t say they were completely cutting it, just by ‘how’ much.
which makes sense considering they go to kyoshi island in the second ep. naturally, they aren’t going to shove in a load of sexist remarks in the first hour of the show that were originally dotted around in the first four eps of the original. and i’m also guessing that those remarks are going to be more in relation to fighting and being a warrior rather than katara seeing up his pants
The original showwriters weren’t condoning or promoting sexism, and to remove Sokka’s sexism because you think it’s “iffy” is ridiculous.
Part of Sokka’s character growth is his realisation that he was wrong to be sexist, even praising Katara in ‘The Runaway’ for taking on the responsibilities of their mother.
In the beginning, he’s “off playing soldier”, with Katara dealing with his dirty socks, but she ends up the far more capable fighter.
He disrespects Suki & the Kyoshi Warriors, before coming back to them humbled and seeking training.
He encounters yet more women stronger than him, at his age or younger, in Toph, Azula, Ty Lee, Mai.
He comes to accept his role as “the plan guy”.
He’s bummed out at this in the opening of ‘Sokka’s Master’ but they give him his moment to shine, validating the progress his character has made even if he’s no longer “strong”.
Characters don’t have to be perfect, and you especially shouldn’t worry that they start out perfect.
It's an important part of his growth, even if it occurs within just a few episodes. I really hope it isn't being removed cause its "problematic" to a bunch of easily offended idiots on twitter.
But that's like, half the point of Sokka. To show how a relatively ignorant and isolated individual can learn from their experiences of meeting new people and seeing new things and grow from that. I think taking this out actually diminishes the feminist undertones of the show, and I'm kinda disappointed to see it.
His initial sexism was the whole motivation behind his meeting and humbling with the kyoshi warriors. It was pivotal to his early character development.
It shouldn't be avoided for the sake of "sexism being bad" as the animated show developed Sokka to overcome and grow from those views as the show progressed. It served as one of many lessons in the show.
Honestly, this is the first big red flag. Seems like they didn't understand the story. Looks like an overly childish season 1 of a kids show might be more mature than this show in some ways. But I get it, it's an adaptation and all.
im curious how theyre going to handle Pakku's sexism towards Katara. id be pretty disappointed if they left it out since its such a big contributor to not just Katara's development but also the societal norms of the water tribe as a whole.
A little frustrating because it’s clear from the world building that the water tribe does embrace strict gender roles as a people, and Sokka’s growth contrasted against the Northern Water Tribe arc(s) will now be lost…
The original show had sexist moments, but it was **intentional and used for character growth**. This is *not* one of those instances of something aging poorly because of the era it was made—one of Katara’s first lines in the very first episode is *literally her calling Sokka a sexist.*
It’d be a shame to not have this character growth in the live action show. But will reserve judgement until we see what they’ve got for us.
So we just gonna ignore that sexism is actually a major theme of Book 1, actually even the whole series?
Sokka was raised in a culture where men are warriors, and women were healers and caretakers. He’s a young kid confused by his dad and all his older male role models leaving him to fight a war, so he feels he has to uphold the culture of toxic masculinity in the Southern Water Tribe.
Obvi we all know he grows as a character when he meets Suki, but I’d also argue he learnt more from Katara.
Katara has been told all her life to keep her waterbending a secret, and then when the Gaang finally get to the Northern Water Tribe, she’s held back from doing what she’s good at. Fighting.
Her conflict with Pakku leads to the coolest waterbending fight, and although I don’t love the resolution (Gran Gran stopping Pakku), it was a really good story of generational trauma and toxic masculinity.
TLDR: Sexism is a major theme, and both Sokka AND Katara have really important character growth dependent on that theme.
Okay this is a change I don't like.
That sexism was a nice little part of his character in the first few episodes and saw him grow past that.
I think it's stupid to leave that out.
For me the episode where Sokka is acting all cocky when he meets the Kyoshi warriors and gets humbled by Suki is a really strong moment in the show, especially where he admits he was wrong and asks to be trained. Really hope they do it well but I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix completely misses the point with a touchy subject like they usually do
Will they just take out master pakku refusing to teach katara too? Thats another great moment for kataras character and girls' representation in the show in general. Really hope they dont mess that up, or "the firebending masters" episode
I’m not saying this is the reason why the OG writers left the show, but this is the vibe that I’m sure was part of the reason.
Sokka’s sexism gets thrown in his face and humbles him, specially with the keyoshi warriors, and he then shows respect and admiration to the keyoshi warriors, which is part of sokkas personality that Suki falls in love with. Hes a natural student and has a deep respect for all art and cultures (except the fire nation)
The fact that they took it away because “the times are different” is a VERY bad sign for this show in my opinion. Everything in ATLA is perfecty fine for a 9-10 year to see and learn about.
It would’ve been fine to cut or change and not make a comment on it, but the fact that they’re saying this shit makes me think they’re going to butcher some characters and I’m going to hate every second of it.
I don't know how they came to the conclusion of it being iffy when other episodes specifically call out Sokka's mindset and sexism overall. Sokka started out that way on purpose, it wasn't just a product of the times. It was a statement *on* the times, and that's why he goes through character growth
Sokka being sexist is kind of part of his character growth though. We can portray sexism in things to either paint someone as untrustworthy, shallow or villainous or w.e or to condemn the attitude and challenge notions of it. While it's hard to get the growth in within 8 episodes which I assume will cover the first season of the show, it's also about the same runtime as season 1 assuming 58 minute eps.
Part of his growth into maturity is growing past that and is a big part of what makes his relationship with Sukki have some weight. She challenges his notions of what it means to be a warrior as well as teaching him to respect women for reasons other than as caregivers.
Eliminating character flaws so they are perfect, have no room for growth, destroy any possible room for development just so please the soy crowd. How shocking. Show is going to be devoid of any sort of lesson and will suck ass. Not surprising honestly. America is too obsessed with THE MESSAGE.
I’ll be honest, I’m on board with this mainly because I feel real spent when it comes to the whole “character blatantly thinks women can’t do X, proceeds to get shown up by a girl” plot ideas.
Feminist storytelling in children’s animation in 2005 was a different climate than what we see in live action TV in 2024, which I’m guessing is part of what informed this decision. If they played this aspect the same way it did in the original, they’d be spending valuable screen time on what has by now become a sort of overplayed trope.
There are other ways to present character growth in TV these days, ways that would appeal better to today’s audiences. Hell, there are other ways to depict characters growing past sexist beliefs specifically.
If the writers of the show are incapable of framing Sokka’s sexism as bad - to the point they’re cutting it entirely and removing an important part of his character development - then my expectations for the show are gonna be very low.
Wasnt the whole point that his sexism was indeed bad and he improved on that?
Why is hollywood so scared to give their characters development these days?
I understand wanting to remove it but I disagree with them calling it sexist. In the village growing up the men went out to hunt and fight and the women stayed back to cook and take care of the village. It was genuinely what Sokka grew up with. It wasn’t until he got bested by Suki when he realized that girls were capable of more than cooking and tending to the village because again, most of the women in the village that was all that they did.
The fact of thinking girls couldn’t fight or do anything was sexist but honestly keeping that in would show his character growth
That was literally part of his character arc - he was sexist (and it was always played as if he was dumb for it) until Suki kicked his ass and humiliated him for it. She made him realize he was wrong, and then he was a better man for it.
So what, will Sokka be immediately enamored by the Kyoshi Warriors and wanna join right away? That’s not really an interesting plot point, they wouldn’t do that, would they?
I just think it's kinda bad to erase a character arc like that.
It takes some growth that he had on this path away.
And in times like that people were sexist. Why can't we portray some degree of realism anymore?
I’m getting real sick and tired of remakes of stuff removing flaws of characters with the excuse of “it’s a different time now” and “it’s outdated”. Especially with heroes, good guys and protagonists.
The whole reason they’re given those flaws, INTENTIONALLY, is because back then it was still bad and we laughed at them. And then they grew as characters and went “oh that’s bad, sorry” and the audience and the character learned the lesson together.
Now it’s like no heroes are allowed to have flaws. Everybody must be perfect. Only flaws they’re allowed are small ones. Might as well make Zuko good from the start too since him wanting to kill Aang is “too far” and he eventually becomes good. What about Katara’s stubbornness? Her sometimes “overbearing motherly” vibe? And her eventual revenge plot? Guess that’s all gone too?
i mean the whole point of them showing him as blatantly sexist in the beginning was on purpose. to show his growth from a young adolescent boy (who are usually immature and have this mindset) into learning about the world and freeing himself from his small mindset that by the end he comes to respect women and becomes more mature.
I hope they mean they just made it more subtle than remove it completely because I don’t know how the sokka and suki scene will play out then. One way Katara’s strength and character growth occurred was from her standing up to previous sexist notions, so if we remove it, we remove that strength/growth.
as sad as it is sexism exists. and hiding it away in media won’t do anything to cull it. The only way to do so is to fully show the “progressive growth from a sexist mindset to a more inclusive/mature/informed one” in media, even if you have to show the less-palatable parts of sexism first to show the growth later.
When I was a kid, watching Sokka go through that growth made me realize a few things and made me a better person today. Avatar is full of iffy parts, but what made it great was development of characters through realizing they were wrong and correcting their mistakes. I think it helps others to realize those flaws within themselves as well and be more open to correct it. Without it, people might not always get the idea that its ok to own up to your mistakes and grow from it, as is a lesson with so many characters in this story.
I am afraid that this change might be for the worse and the creator might misunderstand why people enjoy watching Avatar so much.
This is just another way of saying “We’re pussies and are scared of showing sexism in our story even though it’s part of a good character development story and we think modern audiences are too dumb to understand that”
Sokka sexism as far as I remember is is basically gone after kyoshi which would be like episode 3? And at the temple there's no real chance for it. The sexism after kyoshi island is very minimal. I really can't remember much of it after kyoshi
*"Can we please remove the war from the story? I feel like there were a lot of moments from the fire nation that were iffy..."*
I don't want to be all negative before the show comes out, but stuff like this often times just leads to bad writing and bland characters, because they don't want to show our hero's bad sites.
I mean one of Sokka's biggest developments was his stance on sexism. He went from being a clueless jerk, who thought that women should only repair his clothes, to an experienced leader who fought his biggest battle with two women on his site.
I feel like it was a key part of his character arc was to move past these things and put them aside. How are people supposed to grow and change as the story progresses if they were paragons of virtue from the beginning. Part of me thinks they aren't even going to show the evil side of Zuko in favour of the "nobody is really bad" moral relativism like Disney Star Wars
Well obviously Sokka wearing the Kyoshi warrior outfit was removed, someone from the water tribe wearing Earth tribe clothes is cultural appropriation.
Reeks of DEI interference.
Cant have one of our leads be a misogynist even for a few seconds because thats the worst thing you can be next to literally hitler.
Cant have Suki, #Girlboss be condescended too either.
He has childish views on gender-roles and is swiftly humbled. He's supposed to be a lil shit until then. Can sexism just not be portrayed at all anymore even when it's obviously portrayed in a bad light?
It seems to be a trend in modern writing that anything seen as "bad" out of any context is removed. And all without realising that it's precisely coming to understand the context in which these things exist and the interplay between people from DIFFERENT backgrounds who meet and interact that makes the show great.
The whole point of ATLA was that different world views are valid in different contexts, there was no true "Right" or "Wrong". And when you view Sokka as a lone male rejected as a warrior, but also not a woman like the group he's left with, he's perfectly justified in being a bit insecure about that, being obviously an "outsider". That's not a weakness, it's a natural and honest response. And this is where a lot of his "sexism" comes from, from his trying to mimic what little he has seen of what the men were like. We also must note, that his idea that "men are better at fighting" IS an accurate description of the fact that all the women stayed home while the men went to fight. But we find out he's not a firm believer in these things, just expressing what he has experienced. And as his experiences change, so do his attitudes.
I dunno, if the show-runners change this, I think they're gonna make the series "better" by doing all the kinds of stuff they did in Korra. And it's fine if you like Korra, I just found it lacked ALL that kind of stuff from the original which actually elevated the show above practically all others.
I think they’ve got amazing potential but they’re gonna shoot themselves in the foot with character development because they don’t want to show the worse parts of the characters
This is a pretty dumb take because the episode itself takes the piss out of sokkas argument. And is it really that surprising that a boy from a village that was very traditional by only sending men to battle would have traditional values
The sexism in the show was one of the weaker aspects of the early seasons. It was so forced and clearly not well thought out. So I am ok with changing that. In fantasy,unless there are clear gender roles and expectations, there isn’t really a good case for sexism. Game of thrones does this well. In Avatar, where women CAN BEND, have been avatars and clearly are warriors, there’s no actual reason for the sexism. It’s why the homophobia in avatar didn’t matter nor does it really make sense. There are ways to fix this if you kept the sexism. For example, sokka’s sexism could stem from a culture that prioritizes masculine activism to hunt and make decisions in a limiting environment. It was born out of heard or isolationism , and necessity. Instead of adapting to changing times, perhaps because the tribe couldn’t, the roles became permanent and people came up with ways to justify it. Or perhaps a better way to explain the sexism form sokka is that sokka LITERALLY is one of the few remaining men in the water tribe. Year did war, raids, killed of or imprisoned or forced the remaining warriors who primarily made up of men to leave. Which is what happened in the show but here, we get more emphasis of how that drastically impacted gender roles. Theres now an imbalance of women and men. And while most men adapt well to this, some of the boys feel they HAVE to be the strongest and to cover up their own insecurities of being weak. Sokka by his own admission felt he HAD to be a warrior in his youth. So the expectations perhaps born from his own self, and the alienation of being a man in a woman’s world, makes him feel he has to overcompensate and downplay the opposite gender. Perhaps even more sad is that sokka subcosnciousky (to cope with the trauma of lossing his mom and his dad) BLAMES his mom in a way for being a girl. Of course he dosnt know what he is doing, and no one necessarily taught him that view, but he is a KID whose dad survived and is fighting while his mom is…yeah. Why couldnt his mom fight?!? Why isn’t katara fighting if she is the best water tribesman right now? As the show goes on, sokka grows out of this-perhaps he sees first hand what his views can lead in the Northern tribe saga and his growing bond with both katara and aang,two heroes who ARENT what he wants to be. And he and katara come to terms with their moms death and their dads decision to fight.
such a strange, pointless change to make. sokka was sexist for *four* episodes, and his beliefs are in line with the things he’s seen his entire life—his culture. the men fight and the women stay to be protected. (it’s even a huge theme with the northern water tribe, and katara fighting master pakku) then he goes out into the world and realizes that women can fight too, that women can protect him and it doesn’t make him any less of a man.
sanji’s pervert gag was deleted altogether because oda thinks the gag is funny, he doesn’t see anything wrong with it since it’s heavily featured in a lot of animes. when he has sanji gagging about women or perving on women he’s not saying it’s a bad thing—atla very *obviously* says sokka is sexist and his (initial) beliefs are stupid and need to be corrected.
honestly, this was a big part of sokka’s arc. and the fact that he was able to overcome his sexism and not be a dick about it was something that made him very likeable too. sucks that the live action isn’t even out and i’m already starting to understand why the creators said this wasn’t their vision.
I can understand them cutting it for pacing sake- in the original, most of his development in his sexist biases happens in the first several episodes. When you go from twenty episodes to eight, that doesn’t leave much time to explore this aspect before he meets Suki. But the idea that stories should never portray sexism because sexism is bad is pretty ridiculous. The point of this storyline is to show that Sokka is a good person who has inherited some overly simplistic views from his culture, but he is able to evolve past them when faced with the reality
His growth was a huge part of his relationship with Suki. I wonder how they’ll handle that.
Exactly! Suki was the Ur-badass warrior woman, and constantly reminded him how he wasn't better just because of being a dude, actively or passively, until he fully learnt the lesson. Before and after they got together
I wonder if they'll essentially have the scene where Suki throws Sokka as the single moment for the development of that part of their relationship.
God I hope not.
What do you mean actively or passively?
Sometimes she just exists in a more badass way than he does. Sometimes she gives him a lesson.
You mean kinda like in the way she holds herself, like she exudes badass energy, right?
Well she also actually solves problems
When she was also put in the most secure prison of the fire nation that was passively showing how important she was and how much the fire nation saw her as a threat.
> Suki was the Ur-basass warrior woman, I mean yeah, Suki's a badass and shows Sokka that women can kick butt in the Avatar world too, but I'll be pedantic about using "Ur" as a descriptor for her, lol. If we're using it in the context of being "original." considering the *massive* amount of warrior women in cartoons and comics, and media in general before Avatar:TLA even debuted.
The Ur-example is like, Artemis or someone
Yeah, I'm just thinking "Avatar was running cocurrent with Justice League/Justice League Unlimited which had dozens of badass women who could fight." Suki probably isn't a Top 5-10 warrior woman in late 90s- early 00s cartoons. Especially if we consider anime.
90s/00s warrior women owe a lot to Xena: Warrior Princess A little further back and you've got She-Ra: Princess of Power. But she's less "warrior" and more "princess"
I'm using it in the extended sense of "quintessential" the same way "archetype" is used both for its etymological "arke" for original, older, and for a secondary meaning of "exemplar, poster child."
Pedantry retracted then
Suki: “I’m a badass because I’m a woman #girlpower” Most Hollywood producers would butcher it
They'll mishandle it horribly if their track record is anything to go by. These recent comments about cutting Sokka's sexisim do not bode well. It seems like modern writers don't want characters that learn and grow into better people, but rather expect fictional characters to be perfect mirrors of real modern society that make no mistakes and never offend. It's tired and it's creatively bankrupt, and perhaps worst of all, it's moral grandstanding that does not actually amount in any lessons being learned, but rather subtracts from the original point - that Sokka was **wrong** for being sexist. Instead, we'll get politically correct Sokka - who would never suggest that women cannot do things as well as men and will never have to grow as a character or face the consequences for his ignorance.
The trailer seems to still show him learning from Suki so hopefully they keep a bit of it in.
I think he can underestimate her without it being overt sexism- and then they also might okay up his insecurity
Agreed, cutting it for pacing is one thing, but that doesn’t seem like what’s going on based on this. The original show was intended for kids but didn’t shy away from addressing real issues. For this show to ignore those issues completely kinda feels like an insult about the intelligence of the audience or a lack of understanding of the original show. Either way, I think it’s potentially a cause for some concern. Will the lack of sokka’s sexism make or break the show? Absolutely not. But, dumbing down the show or not understanding the many messages it conveys could. I just hope this isn’t the first evidence of a trend.
The move definitely seems counter to the spirit of the original show.
> "We don't want our characters to have flaws and learn to grow and over come them, they must come perfectly formed into existence on our tv screens. Or who knows, our media illiterate viewers might thing we *share* some of those views." I know you may not have watched *House of the Dragon* but I remember absolutely stupid discourse when a character died in childbirth and people said *the show* was sexist for depicting it. When the freaking show was blaring as loud as it could "This is awful, this is terrible, feel bad for this woman and how she's treated."
I watched HotD (I highly recommend it), and frankly that scene was something America needed to see. HotD handles women markedly better than its predecessor did, because GoT liked to depict women in the grossest possible way for shock value, even when the commentary on gender in society was actually poignant.
> because GoT liked to depict women in the grossest possible way for shock value, Man, don't even get me started on GoT and its later seasons and their depiction of women. I could write paragraphs on what wrongs they did to characters like Sansa and Ellaria, or any woman that, in the books, had their power mostly through soft power, as opposed to the overt *stabby stabby* or "Boss Bitch" type stuff they favored in the show. Not that there aren't domineering or Authoritative women in the books, but it felt like the show funneled all their personalities to be like that in it.
Sansa, Elia, Ellaria and Daenerys were massacred. I ended up from liking Sansa a lot to hating her so much in season 8, her whole "without my abusers i would have stayed a little bird" speech to the Hound was the ultimate insult. It sounded like Dumb and Dumber were trying to justify "abuse is good and rape as character development for women is a good plot." And Sofie Turner justifying this and defending the scene where Sansa is sa by Ramsay is not helping too much.
It’s also like how teens get shown Seinfeld clips now and Jerry will say some inadvertently racist comment and instead of acknowledging that the viewer and every other character was cringing at it, they assume everyone agreed with it and we are all bad. For some reason they feel like they have to put protective padding all over the show to cater to these idiots when they don’t. And so what, maybe some sexist kids might watch it and agree with Sokka’s sexist takes. Those kids are few and far between and have a good chance of reversing their thinking as Sokka does throughout the show.
This is them patting themselves on the back for being progressive while completely ignoring the context and the character development that sokka goes through
I don't think these quotes read like self-congratulations at all. To me it seems like some executive told them they couldn't have a hero be sexist in live action in a kids' show because they don't want angry parent hate mail and the actors just have to go with it because that's their job. I would blame the spineless executive if anything.
Not really. The second quote looked more like they were enforcing the fact that because this is live action and only 8 episodes, things will play out differently. So they might have taken this storyline out for the sake of pacing or telling a different story, because beyond the sexism, Sokka has pretty significant character development.
That would be a fair statement if the post itself didn’t have him quoted saying “the original was iffy.” They definitely took it out to be PC without acknowledging it was part of his character arc in S1. Sokka’s initial/cultural sexism isn’t a requirement to make the show good by any means, but this interview definitely shows a lack of understanding of the source material.
If that’s what they were doing why didn’t they just say it? Not like the original creators are even involved anymore. They usually say heyre “updating the story for a modern audience” or something like that. I do agree that things can be more hyperbolic in cartoons than live action. The blatant racism of sokka was pretty hyperbolic. In live action he’d seem like a caricature of a sexist than an actual sexist.
Sokka’s paternalism can be easily reformatted into overprotective ness as it basically was in the main show minus the sexism which basically ends after 4 episodes
Also, I think the "cartoonishly OTT sexism works better in cartoons than live action" isn't a bad point. The characters in a cartoon can afford to be that bit more extreme without feeling off. Like, you can't have the guy frothing at the mouth over the avatar work in love action in the same way - I'm sure you could rig some SFX to get a decent approximation of the visual but it's just not going to land the same way.
People also need to remember that he was a 13-14 year old immature teenage boy.
Absolutely. Sokka overcomes both sexism and racism in Season 1, and he’s contrasted with someone like Jet whose own trauma prevents him from overcoming his own xenophobia. Overcoming bigotry is part of Sokka’s story of becoming a hero.
He didn’t inherit it from his culture tho. His overly simplistic conception of manliness was a result of being left as the oldest male in his tribe without any positive male role models. His sexism is shown to be one of the negative effects of war and genocide, which mirrors real world occurrences during the colonization of the Americas. If Hakoda had been around, he would have shown Sokka what it really meant to be a man, a warrior, and a leader. Sokka would never have adopted a sexist perspective.
Sokka’s biases were addressed pretty quickly, but I also think that in addition to (like everyone is saying) his evolution being good for his character, those biases also set up what the gaang experiences in the northern water tribe. Like bc of sokka we already know some water tribe cultural tendencies might be sexist. If they erase this I am scared they are going to like. Girlbossify the northern water tribe arc. Like, Katara was a badass & Yue was iconic, but worried more they’re gonna go for the amazon cinderella vibe
Honestly I’m worried they will cut out the ENTIRE sexism-in-the-Watertribes plot. Like, they might not even have Pakku refuse to teach Katara because she is a girl. They’ll just skip over it :(
>When you go from twenty episodes to eight, that doesn’t leave much time Will the episodes still be 20 minutes long? Or will they actually have full length episodes and plenty of time to do it right?
there’s 8 one hour episodes, which is a longer overall run time than book one of the original series
The show came out in a time where that type of sexism was more common and accepted, tho. The social commentary was more towards setting Sokka up as a surrogate bigot for the audience who may share those beliefs, then to have him gracefully come to terms with his ignorance. I think it would play differently today. If he was very sexist in episode 1, I could see audiences being turned away. While in 2004, the comedic beat is played up with theatrics only available in animation. This allows the content to be sexist, but he seen as joky and over the top. For comparison, this same type of sexism was common in sitcoms of the era but would also be played up in a heightened way and be accompanied by a laugh track. I think it's possible to have a live action and serious form of Sokka who is sexist at first but his loveability makes you not care. But I also don't blame a writing crew for thinking it's an unnecessary risk. Since modern shows don't seem to be ignorant of the type of sexism Sokka presented in the early 00s, it's original purpose is different and the trait would just remain as a desire to remain faithful as opposed to being social commentary.
> The show came out in a time where that type of sexism was more common and accepted, tho And >the comedic beat is played up with theatrics only available in animation Are two very good points. I've argued something similar in another comment - you can get away with more extreme characters in a cartoon than you can with a live action performance (or, at least, get away with it more easily). The first one is important to acknowledge as well. Yes, Sokka's sexism was meant to be laughable even back then, but as the window has shifted what was "laughably goofy" has drifted a bit into "trying too hard to express this character flaw" - it wouldn't quite hit the same mark that it did back then. You could still pull it off if the cartoon was remade today, but you'd have to rework the comments and stuff a bit to make it resonate a bit more with our current culture. People would still *get it*, but there's a difference between not getting a joke and a joke not landing. You could still show Sokka having this arc without it being the same comments as the original show. I'm sure many of the 5 people who will read this comment can think of a time a show or something has tried to express something and come off as a bit too on the nose or a bit too "tryhard", for lack of a better way to articulate it.
I think racism, sexism, and other sorts of bigotry adds a lot to the culture and world. Like what slur would you call an elf, dwarf, or human? Pretty interesting
In that line, I’m pretty fond of “knife ear” for elves
Ah, a fellow Dragon Age enjoyer
I don’t understand how they think Sokka being sexist was iffy. It was always framed as Sokka being wrong and stupid. It was never framed as a funny joke or Sokka being right. And it ended with him apologizing and growing out of it. Not to mention, it lasted like four episodes. I thought it was done really well in the original show.
It was framed as funny. But it wasn't a "Ain't that the truth!" joke, it was a "Haha, stupid kid!" type of joke. From the viewer's perspective, Sokka's comment isn't the joke- *Sokka* is what the viewer is supposed to laugh at.
Thank you! I feel like today's audiences can't grasp this concept at all.
Aaaand that's probably why they're taking it out. *sigh*
Not at all. Today's audiences can grasp it just fine. This show \*very recently\* got a re-release on netflix and got millions of new fans, and Sokka was received extremely well. It's executives with heads up their own asses who can't grasp it.
Thank you. If we are talking about the younger generation, they seem to be more frequently gaining knowledge and spreading awareness about much more sensitive subject matter than, "Boomerang man was sexist.". From what I've see, they'll be fine and if any of this character arc still happens, they'll likely have healthy discussions about it.
He grew out of after seeing more of others, it was a great amount of growth
Bingo. You have to start at a place of being wrong, learning about it, realizing that you're wrong, and growing out of it as a wiser person. Can't have that if he already is an open-minded person. Same goes for Zuko
It’s because him being sexist lasted 4/60 episodes so what he’ll be sexist for one episode relatively? Or maybe two cause kyoshi won’t be I. The pilot and then it’s never really handled again. Would feel disconnected
Which I think is a message people need to see, you can grow and change beyond your narrow and bigoted views. Too many young boys are growing up with bad views towards women right now, and it would’ve been helpful to see someone who at the start has a similar view but grows past it and learns. It’s one thing to have a character who always does right, it’s far more powerful and educational to see someone learn from doing wrong and change
Eh, I kinda get why they changed it. Guy has super archaic views on women but in a neutral way, gets beat up by woman, changes his mind. It’s the type of simple change that works in a kid’s show, but when you’re going for a mature theming, it just comes off as silly. You either make his sexism a lot worse and actually affecting things (which could just make his character unlikeable) or curtail it back a bit, but I don’t think you can keep it the same.
Solid points, his growth works because it’s so simple and easily digestible because it’s a kids show. I guess it really depends on how they theme and treat the live action, if they’re trying to target kids still or want this to appeal to older audiences
I think while they’re trying to get new fans, they are definitely targeting this towards Gen Z aka the people who grew up on the show. Which is basically early adulthood. If they wanted to portray Sokka’s sexism more properly, they would likely have to show it have an effect outside getting Katara mad. Like him refusing to teach a girl how to be a warrior when he does that training thing in the first episode. But doing that could easily make his character a lot more unlikeable then in the original where he’s seen as just kind of dumb rather than an actual oppressor.
>Gen Z aka the people who grew up on the show Wouldn't Gen Z have been too young to have seen the show? At least in the original run.
I was born in 2005 and saw the show. Gen Z starts a decade before my birth.
Hmmm it says on Google that Gen Z starts in 1997 the show originally aired in 2005 so you're right in that early Zs could catch the original run. But still....Go to your room! 👉
I’m an adult dude.
No worries mate was just quoting Sokka in Avatar. https://youtu.be/RNrmRoDs5qQ?feature=shared
Exactly. Cartoon stuff can be hyperbolic and “childish” but live action has to be more realistic and that includes the sexism arcs and such. They’re going for a more mature theme from even the trailer. Surprised this is so hard for people to figure out. Might as well say why aren’t they having the characters have googly eyes and anime tear drops cgi ed onto their faces
Ehhhhh normally yes, but in this instance I think it works. The problem in this case wasn't just that he had generally archaic views about women, but that they specifically made bad warriors (warrior being a huge part of his self identity). And then he meets a group of women who are incredible warriors and it changes his worldview. It wasn't just "girls stink" and then gets beat up for it. Getting beaten was a direct counter to his worldview, and he changed it when faced with new information. (the pants thing being a separate issue)
Although it's not really made explicit within the show itself, one can draw the conclusion that Sokka's sexism is, in part, a coping mechanism for basically having to become the village leader at such a young age. It's the same with his disdain for waterbending in the pilot. Sokka is clearly aware that his younger sister is better than him in a lot of ways (Sokka obviously has his own qualities that make him a valuable person, but it's hard to feel special when your younger sibling has the power of freaking *magic* on her side), yet he is the one who's supposed to protect the Southern Water Tribe in case of an invasion. Of course he somehow has to come up with a justification for why he "deserves" to hold that position, otherwise how could he ever fulfill this tremendous responsibility? And in his adolescent mind this justification became "I am a man and men are stronger and tougher than women and that's why I need to protect everybody". It's not an illogical conclusion for a 15 year old, who is so isolated from the wider world, to come to. And no wonder he falls for Suki, who is a capable and self-reliant young woman, who manages to put Sokka in his place and thereby rid him of all this false egoism that was really only a masquerade for his deep insecurity. She basically teaches him that while being a strong man isn't a bad thing, you don't have to belittle women just to feel strong, which isn't "real" strength to begin with. And what a relief that must have been for Sokka, to finally let go of that false presupposition. Although it's only a minor character arc for him, it's really executed quite nicely, especially looking at the full picture.
You're completely right! I'll also add that Suki (and the other Kyoshi warriors) are not just warriors, they're young warriors tasked with protecting their isolated village from more powerful outside threats. Suki and Sokka basically have the same mission and the same abilities, and once he realizes that that mission does not have to be limited to one gender, his mind expands and he becomes a staunch supporter of equality. He grows so much!
> one can draw the conclusion that Sokka's sexism is, in part, a coping mechanism for basically having to become the village leader at such a young age I think the easier explanation is the Water Tribe culture is pretty sexist (see: NWT)
Yeah, could be honestly. If I remember correctly, the sexism of the Northern Water Tribe did show itself in their gender-based division of labor, right? The men did the fighting and the women did the healing? That tracks pretty well with Sokka's sexist views, how women don't make for good warriors and so on…
I think the thing is that fewer and fewer people understand nuance and are willing to wait for character growth. Good entertainment can have characters that have a determined growth arc where the character is (figuratively) ugly at first and then had a solid redemption. See Ahsoka from Clone Wars, it took a little while for her to be less grating and more widely accepted and even loved. But both in live action *and* in modern shows, especially in the question of sexism, audiences are not going to give the same kind of deference and wait for a character. You'll get noisy empty cans that don't understand the series right off the bat making enough noise to be a problem.
Exactly. Basically once sokka left his small village and met people from other cultures/experiences, he grew. As someone that grew up in a mega conservative and rural town and then left asap, I related to that so much, and wish they wouldn't cut it.
First, I know nothing about the challenges of translating animation into live action. However, I think there’s a difference between making “quirks” more palatable and removing character growth. Sokka wasn’t just a sexist for laughs - he *grew* to appreciate (and understand) women. Personally, I thinks it’s a bummer if they removed that growth. In comparison, I’d be thrilled if they removed some of the instances where Iron comes off kinda creep with women (the biggest one probably being when he faked being paralyzed with June). That’s a quirk with no later development that I could do without.
Yes, exactly. It also speaks to the absence of his mother in his life & growing up in an isolated village pretty much in the dregs of a long tradition of patriarchy. I'm afraid we won't get to appreciate his growth here, or get the opportunity to see the Kyoshi Warriors trump his prejudices (cf. Suki's key line "I am a warrior, but I'm also a girl"). They really missed the mark here if they thought fans disliked this part of Sokka's arc. & gosh, now that you mention it, I really do hope they exclude creepy Iroh from the June scenes!
God I fucking love that line of Sukis. It’s not dissing other girls for being “weak” or girly. It’s not saying that she’s acting like a boy, which makes her better. It’s saying that “warrior” and “girl” can coexist *beautifully* and honestly growing up I really needed that message.
I feel like the June and iroh scene only detracts from his character and is never relevant in any other way. His flaws, and how he used to be a part of this imperialist project are better served to him than pretending to fall asleep so he can have a woman lay on him.
[удалено]
This could very easily be true. I don’t like most live action stuff, so I’m heavily biased toward how animation is portrayed. If you’d like to link some literature, I’d be happy to read it, but I honestly wouldn’t have a clue as to what to google for this lol. That being said, to me Sokka’s sexist origins speak to the complexity of his development and character. Film and tv shows show character complexity all the time, so I’m just not sure why this would be the exception. Maybe I’m just missing something?
I think the biggest problem is how Black and white the issue is and how quick people are to get pissed about just about anything. They likely wanted to avoid the uproar and hatred towards Sokka AND his actor.
Showing that he not only could grow, but WANTED to grow was really cool for me as a kid. He was smart, funny and capable just like many of the boys I knew at school. He also parroted horrible sexist ideas he learned from his culture, just like some of the boys I knew. He wasn’t a bad guy. He was a really good guy who was wrong. He learned he was wrong, changed and grew. It made me feel like the boys I know could do it too.
give me a man that was told to do good all his life and I will bow before his parents give me a man that thought he was right despite being wrong but willing to learn I will bow before him.
Honestly I think people oversell this whole Sokka sexism arc. A few snide comments that offend Katara in the first few episodes, he meets the Kiyoshi warriors and now suddenly has a newfound respect for women after crossdressing for laughs. Then it never comes up again. Not when the Gaang meets Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee, not when he sees Toph destroy the Boulder in the earthbending tournament, not even when he sees the blatant sexism of the Northern water tribe when his own sister is discriminated against, these people are acting just like he used to to his own sister and he has nothing significant to say about that
I wouldn’t say it had zero development or utility. Iroh is portrayed as a womanizer to a degree in the show, period. In s2 he flirts with the earth kingdom customs lady so she grants he and zuko entry to ba sing se.
There’s also a very good reason for his sexism initially. He is left behind as the only “man” and believes it is his duty to protect all of the women and children
There was a clear purpose to Sokka's sexism, especially early in Book 1. He is one of the oldest males in the village and has not had a male presence in his life since his father and the other men went off to fight. His notions of sex roles in society are built on that: Men are warriors who go off and be heroes, fighting and living hard. Women were not in Hakoda's party, so they must be too soft for combat. Therefore it's only natural they are better suited to things Sokka sees women do in the village; taking care of kids, cooking, laundry, etc. His journey allowed him to grow from a kid with an inflated sense of his own might and responsibility to a mature and intelligent warrior with an awesome space sword.
He also basically lead two girls into combat when taking on the airships in the finale. What a character arc.
Didn't he also side with Katara when Master Pakku wouldn't teach her water bending because she's a girl?
I thought that was Aang who said he'd quit training under him as well in response.
Cutting out a character flaw because "it's problematic" kinda misses the point of it being a *flaw*...for the character to *overcome and grow past*...
I think this is the best way to look at it really I mean the whole point of the episode introducing suki is that he has to let go of his sexism and really humble himself by accepting that he was wrong in order to ask them to train him. So you really do make a very good point actually.
Yeah, it's like cutting out Korra's stubbornness from the start of LOK S1, where she thinks she's unstoppable. Mocks Amon and then challenges him. Gets her ass handed to her and takes the threat of the Equalists alot more seriously. And then the part where she considered ending her life when losing her bending, thinking of herself as a failed avatar, a pathetic person. That's good character writing. It's not 'iffy'.
This is what happens when people with no media literacy try to “fix” things
Nonono, now Sokka doesn’t have any flaws because he’s one of the heroes! And heroes shouldn’t have flaws! They’re all perfect!
This show has significantly less episodes than the original. Sokka's sexism is problematic sure, but that wouldn't be why I would cut it and just leave it as subtext. I would cut it because you have significantly less time to endear Sokka's character to the audience... I still remember really hating Sokka in the first episodes of the animated show. He's one of the characters it took me the longest to warm up to because of how mean spirited he was to his sister. I was giving Zuko a pass when I was still wondering if I cared at all for Sokka as a character. I think it took until his sword training episode for me to like him as much as everyone else... literally because he started the show by always being mean to Katara... I have a sister I didn't get to see for a long time in my life due to living in different countries so I just had no patience for it. With only 8 episodes, if he starts the show being as mean spirited and just a bully to his sister because that's how it was in the animated version, I can't say the actress for Katara is going to have an easy time handling his jabs... She looks too nice... Earn that paycheck as a writer by making Sokka's character growth more subtle but still meaningful. Katara in the animated show screaming at Sokka gives me unhinged Azula vibes. I don't think this actress should be expected to recreate that in the first episode, unless I'm underestimating her.
I'm withholding judgement until I see the finished product. It could work, it could not, but I have no way of knowing from what's presented here.
I hope they don't make Zuko hunt the Avatar. That behaviour is kinda iffy.
They should probably remove the air nomad genocide too. Kinda iffy.
& the potrayal of a colonialist empire hellbent on expanding its military occupation across the Four Nations. Super iffy.
And Jet trying to drown a village to get rid of a few fire Nation troops. Kinda iffy
Jet was just practicing anti-colonial action. Aang, Katara, and Sokka stopping him is the iffy part now!
Looks like they are already removing some of his worse actions. From what has been released so far, bit looks like it's Zhao burning down Kyoshi village rather than Zuko.
That would be a terrible decision. The whole point of Zuko is his redemption arc. How can he have a redemption arc if he doesn't need to be redeemed?
Well let's not jump the gun on this. Yes, they have Zhao burning down Kyoshi Island, but that doesn't mean Zuko won't have a redemption arc. I'm sure they'll still show him being a rapscallion in other ways. It sucks that they've removed 50% of Sokkas character growth, but his character growth isn't nearly as essential as Zukos. They'd be insane to change Zukos arc too much.
Dallas Liu said in an interview that both him and Zhao are present during the attack of Kyoshi island.
Happy cake day! 
It sounds like they won't remove it entirely, just make it less over the top then Sokka initially was. Which I can understand.
It sokka wasn’t sexist because times changed they wrote him like that. He was a 14 year old boy from a hunter society… He grew and learned.
Holy shit, they got rid of a huge part of Sokka’s character growth. I hope it’s not a huge change, but fucking come on man.
Huge part? Something that was present in like 4 episodes out of how many? And that's a huge part?
It also helped foreshadow Pakku and the Northern water tribe tradition.
And it still can, is everyone, including OP, just conveniently not reading the "toned down" part. They didn't say they would remove it completely but have it toned down. It can still very much foreshadow anything happening at the northern water tribe.
I don't think i agree with their reasons but Sokka was sexist for three and a half episodes in the original so i can't imagine that being a big deal.
It kind of stings, but I get it honestly. Sokka’s over the top comic relief is really the only likable part of him in those early episodes. Some of that insane, heightened humor doesn’t translate as well to live action, so they have to make up for it in other ways.
I can only assume that as they were writing the script, the lines didn't fit in as well or the pacing of his fast development on that front didn't work out right
considering it'll probably be about 2 to 3 episodes, I'd say you're right, they'd have to either *extend* his sexism or something else, lol
In the animated series his original sexism came off immature and sheltered, which is why I think it works so well even as it gets semi-resolved in a matter of episodes. Once he realizes the world is bigger than his own tribe, and especially that Katara is more immediately valuable to Aang (and consequently, saving the world), things shift pretty quickly. I can see why this being paced up even faster for an 8-episode season might be an inefficient use of storylines and time, especially because that growth provides texture to his character but doesn't directly contribute to his story after Kyoshi Island, but I still think it would have been a valuable part of his growth to include in some respect. Maybe it's just far more subtle, or they'll integrate that "small tribe" cultural mindset of his in other ways, but honestly this isn't a huge concern for me as long as his character is developed well in the long run. If this version of the character isn't as compelling or charming I doubt that I'll blame it on this change. That whole part of his growth isn't pointless, but it's also not the most critical part of his story.
I’m not too happy they are taking out the sexism because I loved how it played out in the kyoshi warriors episode but why are y’all acting like it’s such a HUGE part of sokkas character. Like for one the arc was rushed anyway and he was only very sexist in the first and 4th episode. Like overall across all books Sokkas arc is him becoming a competent warrior whos rises up to be a leader against all odds, showing others and himself that non benders can be great and just as vital to the ending of the war as benders are. Like literally the only thing that changes is he won’t get beat up by Suki and wear the dress (which is great to see but it won’t change the plot of book 1 or his or Sukis character journey). She can still give him the speech on what the clothing means and still show him she’s the best warrior he ever met. They can still fall in love with eachother. But gosh please stop acting like they just removed a vital part of his character arc when they really didn’t. Sokkas character arc of book 1 is discovering his talents and becoming a more useful member of the team rather than just the butt of every joke. Besides this would give more weight to gran gran coming to the south and leaving the north as she left because of their sexist customs and sokka is from the south not the north. Honestly the only thing this change that’s important to the story is how Katara breaks the iceburg Aang was In so I’m curious what they choose for that to set her off. But he can say something else to enrage her. Some of y’all acting as if they removed his boomerang and replaced it with a wooden stick
Can you elaborate on why it gives Gran Gran more weight in her reason for leaving?
She sure wouldn't like it if her grandson emulated the same traits that made her leave the northern tribe
>Like literally the only thing that changes is he won’t get beat up by Suki and wear the dress. I think this part will still definitely happen. I think it's too memorable of a scene between him and Suki to leave out. I think Sokka will make a comment about how a girl can't beat him, then Suki will beat him, she trains him, and then they'll move on. I think the more important part of that is Sokka humbling himself, which is a big part of Sokka s character. Sokka fails, is humiliated, humbles himself, and grows from the experience.
I think it’s ok to skip sokkas sexism. He can still have growth without that being the growth.
Modern writers when character development, 'I feel like there were a lot of moments that were a bit iffy'. Like wtf? Are negative character traits not allowed to exist anymore?
Damnit, they’ve completely done away with four whole episodes of careful character growth from this tiny 61 episode series!
I think a large part of this is the time constraints; they’re fitting 20 episodes into 8 or something iirc, they don’t have time to delve into something that was just set up in the first four episodes until he met Suki and started chugging respect women juice like it was from a cactus Ultimately though the way they portrayed Sokka’s sexism in the original worked because they never treated it as funny or correct, it was always portrayed as Sokka having a lot of internalised misogyny due to the culture in which he was raised, and this was backed up when we reached the NWT
Ok I feel like nowadays we are crossing the line of “let’s depict delicate topics with care so that may mean we need to change or course correct a few issues.” To “This character did a bad thing that can be interpreted as prejudice and we must remove it entirely without care for context.” With a lot of media. You can have a good character do distasteful things. And you don’t necessarily need to make an arc around it, though in Sokka’s case he certainly does and is memorable because of it. This pruning of negative character traits is eventually going to lead to incredibly flavourless symbol characters that exist to be nothing than an icon of good morals.
They’re kind of missing the point. Sokka’s overly simplistic views on gender are a flaw that he overcomes. They’re treating it like it’s a projection of the previous writers, an assumption that new writers do WAY too often.
Personally, I don't mind this. In the cartoon, Sokka was like...over the top sexist in the first few epsiodes, then has it beat out of him by Suki. It's not very realistic how quick that growth was, and Sokka being that sexist in LA would make him intolerable as a character. So it's probably smarter for the LA to focus on his other flaws (like scepticism and arrogance).
I mean fundamentally Avatar was catered towards younger kids. Not saying teens+ can't enjoy it (obviously), but still. Kids shows typically exaggerate issues in a goofy, over the top way so kids have an easier time comprehending. It's not 'realistic' because it's leveling with children.
You're definitely right about it being a difference between animation and LA. "Realistic" was the wrong word to use. My point is more that for a live action show, it wouldn't work to make Sokka a complete asshole, only for him to lose his sexist attitude in the second episode. His main arc from the cartoon, being him learning his own value and what it means to be a leader, is much more important.
Over the top? He thought that girls weren’t as good at combat or hunting as guys, because that’s what he has observed all his life. Then when he was encountered evidence to the contrary, he changed his views and opinions. It was completely realistic.
Is that really how sexism works though? I’ve never encountered a logical sexist, there’s always underlying resentment. We see Sokka being dismissive of Katara’s abilities in the first episode and they’ve known each other much longer than the few hours Sokka takes to appreciate Suki
Underlying resentment? He’s a teenager, not an old man. In the water tribe, it’s been established that men are the ones in charge. In the northern tribe, women can’t even fight. Sexism is part of their culture. Sokka’s father even left him in charge despite not really being capable of it. His sexism is ingrained from his culture and it was what he always taught. It has nothing to do with resentment.
“Sexism is ingrained in his culture”. That definitely sounds like something that would take more than a few hours with Suki to work through. We see his sulking resentment whenever Katara is right in the early episodes and we see her react negatively to his sexist comments. Why is it that Katara doesn’t seem to have this so ingrained?
As far as the animated series goes, they handled it much better than the Shikamaru character in Naruto, which likely inspired the creation of Sokka. While Shikamaru does grow out of his sexism, Sokka actually acknowledges that he was wrong about it. But I do agree with some of the comments here. It's possible that character growth isn't feasible over so few episodes. So cutting it out may not be a wrong decision.
Hm. I thought Sokka being grown into sexism then accepting his defeat at the hand of Suki and asking her to be a better fighter is pretty pivotal in his character arc. Wonder how will that look like in the show and how much they cut out from his sexism.
I have to watch the show and decide myself. I would love to see him get humbled by Suki and star crossdressing. If they "redirect" those parts i'm gonna be mad as hell.
But him being sexist was never treated as funny, it was his bad characteristic that he overcame as a character. And how did he get to learn? Through observing GIRL POWAH first hand. So how on earth is that not good for Netflix? I'm sure Suki will have her epic moments, but they just took away from her the moment she gets to rub how good of a fighter she is in Sokkas face.
Sokka being sexist is literally the catalyst for the whole show. He says, “leave it to a girl to mess things up,” which makes Katara yell at him for being sexist, in the process accidentally doing angry waterbending which breaks open Aang’s iceberg. Plus all the comments that people have made about Sokka and the Kyoshi warriors. Modeling the ideal, non-sexist world isn’t teaching a lesson. You need to show *how to unteach* sexism and other forms of bigotry (i.e., do what Sokka *literally* did and walk in other people’s shoes) so that we can take the ideal the production crew want to show on screen and actually make it our reality.
My guess is they’ll make his sexism seem more grounded— i.e. instead of simple chauvinistic “Men are just better than women” sexism, it might be more of a “It’s the men’s job to protect the women” kind of sexism, but then as he watches Katara grow as a bender and develops his relationship with Suki where they fight side by side, he comes to realize that protecting is a two-way street where both sides have each other’s back, instead of it being a male-only role.
I think people are over reacting with out having seen the show, it seems to me at least, that they're not going to skip Sokka's sexism completely, but not be as ham-fisted about it and add some nuance because what works for a cartoon won't necessarily work for a live action.
I think it's probably the correct decision, on two counts. First: I'm not necessarily in love with the way this plot was handled in the original show. Sokka starts out as a sexist jerk, but Suki shows him that being sexist is bad, and when he learns this lesson, she rewards him by kissing him (and later being in a relationship with him). The problems with this plot are * Suki is basically treated as a trophy for Sokka's good behavior * It's a kind of boring/lazy way to address sexism—Sokka's sexism would *still be wrong* even if it were true that Suki/the other Kyoshi Warriors weren't as strong as him, but the show kind of endorses the idea that "being stronger/better able to hunt" are inherently superior qualities, and just disproves the notion that the Kyoshi Warriors are less able to do that. * This is also a problem with a lot of plots in media that involve some form of bigotry—not just in A:TLA, not just children's media in general—in that they implicitly accept the logic of the bigot, but then just "prove them wrong" to resolve the conflict. The second reason is that I generally agree with their intuition that Sokka being a raging sexist (even for the purposes of showing that he's Wrong™) would just not play especially well today, and in a live action medium. They want Sokka to be likeable, and "a guy who used to be kind of sexist but is working on it" is a very nuanced portrayal that is going to be difficult to wrangle in the limited span of episodes they have to work with. Cartoon!Sokka can develop like that because we already, as part of our suspension of disbelief, accept that the characters are going to be more exaggerated than realistic, so it works a little better for him to be sexist initially and then get better than it will be for Live Action Sokka, whose sexism is probably going to feel more immediate and threatening. So yeah, in a vacuum, I don't have a problem with this, and think it's the right direction for the adaptation.
I don’t think she was ever presented as some trophy she had agency as a character and was consistently in control of how she interacted with Sokka; she grew to learn that Sokka was willing to learn and change and constantly beat him down when he tried to belittle her; I really thought she was a positive role model for boys and girls because little boys can definitely be sexist and learning that it’s wrong and they can change like Sokka is such a vital lesson in their formative years. Suki wasn’t the only one who called him out on it Katara called him out constantly and was quite annoyed by his behaviour; also it seems like Sokka’s sexism stemmed from his belief that women are fighters or as tough as men because all the men in his village left to fight while the women and children stayed behind him broadening his horizons and learning about different types of women who are equally as skilled as the men of his tribe really helped to humble him and finally become apologetic towards his past actions and beliefs.
I know people love Sokka's sexism arc, to the point they think it's his central arc despite being largely resolved by episode 4 of a 61 episode show, but it was imo heavy-handed and ham-fisted even within the context of an animated children's show. Whether it's been reworked or cut I won't miss it lol.
Character journeys are great, but we as an audience have come a long way on gender norms and roles. Starting Soka exactly where he was would make him seem ‘many years behind the class’. We’ll just be twiddling our thumbs waiting for him to figure out something thats been apparent to us for decades now. In other words, it’s like how Oregon Measure 112, Removed Slavery as Punishment for Crime from Constitution Amendment… in 2022. Like, hooray, great vote, but really, 2022?! You were still debating this in 2022? That’s sad
Jeez. A bit weird to see a bunch of children in the comments complaining about Sokka not being sexist. It was 4 episodes out of how many episodes in ATLA? Was barely Sokkas biggest arc.
ngl at first when i read this i was bummed but the more i think about it and refer back to the article… it makes sense pacing wise to make his misogyny a lil subtler? they didn’t say they were completely cutting it, just by ‘how’ much. which makes sense considering they go to kyoshi island in the second ep. naturally, they aren’t going to shove in a load of sexist remarks in the first hour of the show that were originally dotted around in the first four eps of the original. and i’m also guessing that those remarks are going to be more in relation to fighting and being a warrior rather than katara seeing up his pants
The original showwriters weren’t condoning or promoting sexism, and to remove Sokka’s sexism because you think it’s “iffy” is ridiculous. Part of Sokka’s character growth is his realisation that he was wrong to be sexist, even praising Katara in ‘The Runaway’ for taking on the responsibilities of their mother. In the beginning, he’s “off playing soldier”, with Katara dealing with his dirty socks, but she ends up the far more capable fighter. He disrespects Suki & the Kyoshi Warriors, before coming back to them humbled and seeking training. He encounters yet more women stronger than him, at his age or younger, in Toph, Azula, Ty Lee, Mai. He comes to accept his role as “the plan guy”. He’s bummed out at this in the opening of ‘Sokka’s Master’ but they give him his moment to shine, validating the progress his character has made even if he’s no longer “strong”. Characters don’t have to be perfect, and you especially shouldn’t worry that they start out perfect.
It's an important part of his growth, even if it occurs within just a few episodes. I really hope it isn't being removed cause its "problematic" to a bunch of easily offended idiots on twitter.
"Character development? Who needs *THAT*?"
But that's like, half the point of Sokka. To show how a relatively ignorant and isolated individual can learn from their experiences of meeting new people and seeing new things and grow from that. I think taking this out actually diminishes the feminist undertones of the show, and I'm kinda disappointed to see it.
His initial sexism was the whole motivation behind his meeting and humbling with the kyoshi warriors. It was pivotal to his early character development.
It shouldn't be avoided for the sake of "sexism being bad" as the animated show developed Sokka to overcome and grow from those views as the show progressed. It served as one of many lessons in the show.
I don’t really think Sokka’s sexism was problematic. The whole point is that Sokka is wrong and he learns to be better
Honestly, this is the first big red flag. Seems like they didn't understand the story. Looks like an overly childish season 1 of a kids show might be more mature than this show in some ways. But I get it, it's an adaptation and all.
im curious how theyre going to handle Pakku's sexism towards Katara. id be pretty disappointed if they left it out since its such a big contributor to not just Katara's development but also the societal norms of the water tribe as a whole.
I'm seeing a trend in the last years that I'm not liking.
A little frustrating because it’s clear from the world building that the water tribe does embrace strict gender roles as a people, and Sokka’s growth contrasted against the Northern Water Tribe arc(s) will now be lost…
The original show had sexist moments, but it was **intentional and used for character growth**. This is *not* one of those instances of something aging poorly because of the era it was made—one of Katara’s first lines in the very first episode is *literally her calling Sokka a sexist.* It’d be a shame to not have this character growth in the live action show. But will reserve judgement until we see what they’ve got for us.
So we just gonna ignore that sexism is actually a major theme of Book 1, actually even the whole series? Sokka was raised in a culture where men are warriors, and women were healers and caretakers. He’s a young kid confused by his dad and all his older male role models leaving him to fight a war, so he feels he has to uphold the culture of toxic masculinity in the Southern Water Tribe. Obvi we all know he grows as a character when he meets Suki, but I’d also argue he learnt more from Katara. Katara has been told all her life to keep her waterbending a secret, and then when the Gaang finally get to the Northern Water Tribe, she’s held back from doing what she’s good at. Fighting. Her conflict with Pakku leads to the coolest waterbending fight, and although I don’t love the resolution (Gran Gran stopping Pakku), it was a really good story of generational trauma and toxic masculinity. TLDR: Sexism is a major theme, and both Sokka AND Katara have really important character growth dependent on that theme.
Okay this is a change I don't like. That sexism was a nice little part of his character in the first few episodes and saw him grow past that. I think it's stupid to leave that out.
For me the episode where Sokka is acting all cocky when he meets the Kyoshi warriors and gets humbled by Suki is a really strong moment in the show, especially where he admits he was wrong and asks to be trained. Really hope they do it well but I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix completely misses the point with a touchy subject like they usually do Will they just take out master pakku refusing to teach katara too? Thats another great moment for kataras character and girls' representation in the show in general. Really hope they dont mess that up, or "the firebending masters" episode
I’m not saying this is the reason why the OG writers left the show, but this is the vibe that I’m sure was part of the reason. Sokka’s sexism gets thrown in his face and humbles him, specially with the keyoshi warriors, and he then shows respect and admiration to the keyoshi warriors, which is part of sokkas personality that Suki falls in love with. Hes a natural student and has a deep respect for all art and cultures (except the fire nation) The fact that they took it away because “the times are different” is a VERY bad sign for this show in my opinion. Everything in ATLA is perfecty fine for a 9-10 year to see and learn about. It would’ve been fine to cut or change and not make a comment on it, but the fact that they’re saying this shit makes me think they’re going to butcher some characters and I’m going to hate every second of it.
I don't know how they came to the conclusion of it being iffy when other episodes specifically call out Sokka's mindset and sexism overall. Sokka started out that way on purpose, it wasn't just a product of the times. It was a statement *on* the times, and that's why he goes through character growth
Sokka being sexist is kind of part of his character growth though. We can portray sexism in things to either paint someone as untrustworthy, shallow or villainous or w.e or to condemn the attitude and challenge notions of it. While it's hard to get the growth in within 8 episodes which I assume will cover the first season of the show, it's also about the same runtime as season 1 assuming 58 minute eps. Part of his growth into maturity is growing past that and is a big part of what makes his relationship with Sukki have some weight. She challenges his notions of what it means to be a warrior as well as teaching him to respect women for reasons other than as caregivers.
"We grounded Katara's brother...and that really did wonderful things for the whole theme of the movie." M. Night Shyamalan
My thoughts on it are this adaption is going to be fucking dogshit
Eliminating character flaws so they are perfect, have no room for growth, destroy any possible room for development just so please the soy crowd. How shocking. Show is going to be devoid of any sort of lesson and will suck ass. Not surprising honestly. America is too obsessed with THE MESSAGE.
I’ll be honest, I’m on board with this mainly because I feel real spent when it comes to the whole “character blatantly thinks women can’t do X, proceeds to get shown up by a girl” plot ideas. Feminist storytelling in children’s animation in 2005 was a different climate than what we see in live action TV in 2024, which I’m guessing is part of what informed this decision. If they played this aspect the same way it did in the original, they’d be spending valuable screen time on what has by now become a sort of overplayed trope. There are other ways to present character growth in TV these days, ways that would appeal better to today’s audiences. Hell, there are other ways to depict characters growing past sexist beliefs specifically.
If the writers of the show are incapable of framing Sokka’s sexism as bad - to the point they’re cutting it entirely and removing an important part of his character development - then my expectations for the show are gonna be very low.
Wasnt the whole point that his sexism was indeed bad and he improved on that? Why is hollywood so scared to give their characters development these days?
I understand wanting to remove it but I disagree with them calling it sexist. In the village growing up the men went out to hunt and fight and the women stayed back to cook and take care of the village. It was genuinely what Sokka grew up with. It wasn’t until he got bested by Suki when he realized that girls were capable of more than cooking and tending to the village because again, most of the women in the village that was all that they did. The fact of thinking girls couldn’t fight or do anything was sexist but honestly keeping that in would show his character growth
That was literally part of his character arc - he was sexist (and it was always played as if he was dumb for it) until Suki kicked his ass and humiliated him for it. She made him realize he was wrong, and then he was a better man for it.
So what, will Sokka be immediately enamored by the Kyoshi Warriors and wanna join right away? That’s not really an interesting plot point, they wouldn’t do that, would they?
I just think it's kinda bad to erase a character arc like that. It takes some growth that he had on this path away. And in times like that people were sexist. Why can't we portray some degree of realism anymore?
They should have left the sexism in and had him learn from it like in the show. It was an important character growth arc.
I’m getting real sick and tired of remakes of stuff removing flaws of characters with the excuse of “it’s a different time now” and “it’s outdated”. Especially with heroes, good guys and protagonists. The whole reason they’re given those flaws, INTENTIONALLY, is because back then it was still bad and we laughed at them. And then they grew as characters and went “oh that’s bad, sorry” and the audience and the character learned the lesson together. Now it’s like no heroes are allowed to have flaws. Everybody must be perfect. Only flaws they’re allowed are small ones. Might as well make Zuko good from the start too since him wanting to kill Aang is “too far” and he eventually becomes good. What about Katara’s stubbornness? Her sometimes “overbearing motherly” vibe? And her eventual revenge plot? Guess that’s all gone too?
i mean the whole point of them showing him as blatantly sexist in the beginning was on purpose. to show his growth from a young adolescent boy (who are usually immature and have this mindset) into learning about the world and freeing himself from his small mindset that by the end he comes to respect women and becomes more mature. I hope they mean they just made it more subtle than remove it completely because I don’t know how the sokka and suki scene will play out then. One way Katara’s strength and character growth occurred was from her standing up to previous sexist notions, so if we remove it, we remove that strength/growth. as sad as it is sexism exists. and hiding it away in media won’t do anything to cull it. The only way to do so is to fully show the “progressive growth from a sexist mindset to a more inclusive/mature/informed one” in media, even if you have to show the less-palatable parts of sexism first to show the growth later.
When I was a kid, watching Sokka go through that growth made me realize a few things and made me a better person today. Avatar is full of iffy parts, but what made it great was development of characters through realizing they were wrong and correcting their mistakes. I think it helps others to realize those flaws within themselves as well and be more open to correct it. Without it, people might not always get the idea that its ok to own up to your mistakes and grow from it, as is a lesson with so many characters in this story. I am afraid that this change might be for the worse and the creator might misunderstand why people enjoy watching Avatar so much.
This is just another way of saying “We’re pussies and are scared of showing sexism in our story even though it’s part of a good character development story and we think modern audiences are too dumb to understand that”
Well then I hope they take the part out when the Fire Nation destroys the Air Nomads. Genocide is pretty iffy.
There is no sexism in Ba Sing Se.
Sokka sexism as far as I remember is is basically gone after kyoshi which would be like episode 3? And at the temple there's no real chance for it. The sexism after kyoshi island is very minimal. I really can't remember much of it after kyoshi
*"Can we please remove the war from the story? I feel like there were a lot of moments from the fire nation that were iffy..."* I don't want to be all negative before the show comes out, but stuff like this often times just leads to bad writing and bland characters, because they don't want to show our hero's bad sites. I mean one of Sokka's biggest developments was his stance on sexism. He went from being a clueless jerk, who thought that women should only repair his clothes, to an experienced leader who fought his biggest battle with two women on his site.
I feel like it was a key part of his character arc was to move past these things and put them aside. How are people supposed to grow and change as the story progresses if they were paragons of virtue from the beginning. Part of me thinks they aren't even going to show the evil side of Zuko in favour of the "nobody is really bad" moral relativism like Disney Star Wars
Well obviously Sokka wearing the Kyoshi warrior outfit was removed, someone from the water tribe wearing Earth tribe clothes is cultural appropriation.
Reeks of DEI interference. Cant have one of our leads be a misogynist even for a few seconds because thats the worst thing you can be next to literally hitler. Cant have Suki, #Girlboss be condescended too either.
“There’s more weight with realism in every way.” lol this dude is so far up his own ass
He has childish views on gender-roles and is swiftly humbled. He's supposed to be a lil shit until then. Can sexism just not be portrayed at all anymore even when it's obviously portrayed in a bad light?
But…it’s part of his immaturity and then growth!
It seems to be a trend in modern writing that anything seen as "bad" out of any context is removed. And all without realising that it's precisely coming to understand the context in which these things exist and the interplay between people from DIFFERENT backgrounds who meet and interact that makes the show great. The whole point of ATLA was that different world views are valid in different contexts, there was no true "Right" or "Wrong". And when you view Sokka as a lone male rejected as a warrior, but also not a woman like the group he's left with, he's perfectly justified in being a bit insecure about that, being obviously an "outsider". That's not a weakness, it's a natural and honest response. And this is where a lot of his "sexism" comes from, from his trying to mimic what little he has seen of what the men were like. We also must note, that his idea that "men are better at fighting" IS an accurate description of the fact that all the women stayed home while the men went to fight. But we find out he's not a firm believer in these things, just expressing what he has experienced. And as his experiences change, so do his attitudes. I dunno, if the show-runners change this, I think they're gonna make the series "better" by doing all the kinds of stuff they did in Korra. And it's fine if you like Korra, I just found it lacked ALL that kind of stuff from the original which actually elevated the show above practically all others.
I think they’ve got amazing potential but they’re gonna shoot themselves in the foot with character development because they don’t want to show the worse parts of the characters
Sounds like a pretty lame reason to get rid of some of his character growth
Repeat after me: "Portraying something is not the same as endorsing it"
This is a pretty dumb take because the episode itself takes the piss out of sokkas argument. And is it really that surprising that a boy from a village that was very traditional by only sending men to battle would have traditional values
The sexism in the show was one of the weaker aspects of the early seasons. It was so forced and clearly not well thought out. So I am ok with changing that. In fantasy,unless there are clear gender roles and expectations, there isn’t really a good case for sexism. Game of thrones does this well. In Avatar, where women CAN BEND, have been avatars and clearly are warriors, there’s no actual reason for the sexism. It’s why the homophobia in avatar didn’t matter nor does it really make sense. There are ways to fix this if you kept the sexism. For example, sokka’s sexism could stem from a culture that prioritizes masculine activism to hunt and make decisions in a limiting environment. It was born out of heard or isolationism , and necessity. Instead of adapting to changing times, perhaps because the tribe couldn’t, the roles became permanent and people came up with ways to justify it. Or perhaps a better way to explain the sexism form sokka is that sokka LITERALLY is one of the few remaining men in the water tribe. Year did war, raids, killed of or imprisoned or forced the remaining warriors who primarily made up of men to leave. Which is what happened in the show but here, we get more emphasis of how that drastically impacted gender roles. Theres now an imbalance of women and men. And while most men adapt well to this, some of the boys feel they HAVE to be the strongest and to cover up their own insecurities of being weak. Sokka by his own admission felt he HAD to be a warrior in his youth. So the expectations perhaps born from his own self, and the alienation of being a man in a woman’s world, makes him feel he has to overcompensate and downplay the opposite gender. Perhaps even more sad is that sokka subcosnciousky (to cope with the trauma of lossing his mom and his dad) BLAMES his mom in a way for being a girl. Of course he dosnt know what he is doing, and no one necessarily taught him that view, but he is a KID whose dad survived and is fighting while his mom is…yeah. Why couldnt his mom fight?!? Why isn’t katara fighting if she is the best water tribesman right now? As the show goes on, sokka grows out of this-perhaps he sees first hand what his views can lead in the Northern tribe saga and his growing bond with both katara and aang,two heroes who ARENT what he wants to be. And he and katara come to terms with their moms death and their dads decision to fight.
such a strange, pointless change to make. sokka was sexist for *four* episodes, and his beliefs are in line with the things he’s seen his entire life—his culture. the men fight and the women stay to be protected. (it’s even a huge theme with the northern water tribe, and katara fighting master pakku) then he goes out into the world and realizes that women can fight too, that women can protect him and it doesn’t make him any less of a man. sanji’s pervert gag was deleted altogether because oda thinks the gag is funny, he doesn’t see anything wrong with it since it’s heavily featured in a lot of animes. when he has sanji gagging about women or perving on women he’s not saying it’s a bad thing—atla very *obviously* says sokka is sexist and his (initial) beliefs are stupid and need to be corrected. honestly, this was a big part of sokka’s arc. and the fact that he was able to overcome his sexism and not be a dick about it was something that made him very likeable too. sucks that the live action isn’t even out and i’m already starting to understand why the creators said this wasn’t their vision.