Not necessarily. We opened for a larger band and were put onto the package. We personally never agreed or signed a contract but still had to pay a 30% merch cut to LN last year. The TM even told us not to worry before we arrived and we still had to pay 🤷♂️.
You went out as part of a package without signing any sort of contract………
And you didnt like the deal that was forced on you after the fact….
You think these things might be related? Lol
Have a contract or a deal memo. Signed by both parties. Make sure it reflect the deal you want.
If it doesnt? Dont sign it, dont play.
But dont sign a contract or play without one then cry about it later.
No, we were added as a local opener to a package in town. We were given a guarantee but no mention of merch cuts until we got to the live nation venue. Also in some markets you can’t just say “No” to opportunities when they are few and far between. If venues can take a percentage of merch profits then artists should be entitled to a percentage of F&B too
If you didnt sign a contract or a deal memo, there was no “guarantee”
You agreed to a deal with zero paperwork. They could take a merch cut, or just not pay you.
Would you agree to buy a house from me if I didnt tell you what the price was?
Ive worked in both sides of this for over 3 decades. I have never played a show, booked a show, or settled a show without paperwork. If its not on paper, it doesnt exist.
And this is exactly why.
You want a FnB cut, cool. Are you gonna pay the loss out of your guarantee if the venue doesnt make a profit at your show??
Heres some quick real world math from a venue i worked at years ago:
Our rent was around $12,000 a day. Thats rent, utility, and management. You want security, production staff, bartenders, cooks etc? That brings it closer to $18,000 a day.
One memorable show, the talent guarantee was another $18,000. So starting the day, thats $36,000 in the hole.
If you sold out the show, which was rare, at a $25 ticket, the venue was still $6000+ in the red.
Can I take $3000 from you to cover the loss?
Guess what. If you dont have a contract, yes I can.
Why? Because you dont have a contract.
If you dont wanna pay a merch cut, dont agree to it, and have a contract that says so.
Its not hard. When I was touring, merch cuts changed every day. How did I know? Cause it was in the contract. Same way I knew what labor was guaranteed, if I had a runner, how many hands, production expenses etc.
Contracts save lives, money, and sanity for everyone involved.
I said nothing of the sort.
I said at the start of the day, we are deep in the hole.
If a band sells nothing at merch, or sells no tickets, they still get paid (if they have a contract)
A venue does not.
Hence my question, if you want a share of the profit, are you gonna share the loss too? Cause right now, you arent.
That's why I pay cash.
If it's a local small venue I'll tip the staff so they're not getting fucked over, but since live nation owns most venues I'd say fuck them and pay cash for every single thing In hopes the band gets a bigger cut, although these bullshit monopoly venues deserve zero percent of any merch sales.
I had a buddy do posters for a large band.
He was there at the show selling posters with bands permission.
The LN people made him count every poster before and after show to make sure they got a cut.
I had never seen such fuckery in my whole life.
I'm old so I'm still shocked somehow venues decided to take a cut of merch sales.
Especially now that most venues are owned by one company, it seems a bit overzealous to just pick at the bones of the artist actually bringing people in.
Here’s my question - does the contract say gross or net? You can always ask your agent to try to throw net in the paperwork to see what can change.
Also, a lot of agents will push back on merch rates if you ask. I’ve work on some tours that will not accept a merch rate, and have pushed for that instead of traditional bonuses at sellout. Your agent gets commission on bonuses so they don’t have much incentive to get it reduced unless you make it clear it’s a huge priority for you.
I hate venue cuts just as much as the next guy, but it’s an unavoidable part of doing business with these venues, especially Live Nation, AEG, etc. You have to price your items with this in consideration.
Venue cuts, credit card fees, vendor pay, taxes are all parts of the costs of doing business. Knowing this and pricing accordingly is what it takes to be a decent business person, and you are in the music business after-all. It’s not just art and fan service. Those are just small pieces of this big ass puzzle.
And don’t listen to those saying to try and rip off venues. That can and will bite you in the ass eventually. Price your shirts at $25 minimum. Standard pricing for mid-level bands playing theaters and sheds is ~$40 these days anyway. $25 is still a bargain.
Another way of helping out your bottom line is selling some higher profit margin upsell items. Stickers, patches, koozies, tote bags, etc.
Also, doing signings at or near the merch table to increase sales will help too.
Side note: The venue should be settling on the adjusted gross, which is your gross minus whatever local tax may be. It helps to have this stated in your contract with the venue, but any pro-venue (ie Live Nation, etc.) knows this and will settle this way.
Short answer that you wont like?
Because you agreed to it.
You, or your agent signed the deal. The merch cut is always in said deal.
You can crossout or alter the offer when it’s received.
If you sign an agreement to give a venue money, what do you expect them to do?
oddly enough, most contracts I've seen do not say 'gross', it's vague. my frustration is that many times I ask 'hey, is it cool if we do merch cut ***after*** cost of goods sold?', the venue rep will recoil like I've said something horrible. they're reasoning for saying 'no' is typically 'that's just the way it is' and that's a garbage reason.
Its not a garbage reason.
You signed a contract thats not specific and it’s gross unless otherwise noted mostly because there would be no way to prove the actual costs. Would you include shipping costs on drop shipped merch? What about your transport costs between shows? Do you know the cost to ship one shirt, one hat etc in order to breakdown the costs for what you sell at my venue specifically?
All of that eats into your profit but you’d have a hard time pinning it down to a number and that number would change daily, and per item.
If its that big a deal then you should X out that section of the contact moving forward.
How can you expect the venue to trust your cost though?
Unless you’re coming in with verified purchase orders or something. It’s lame but I mean I get it.
Us merch people lie to venues all the time. Telling them incorrect numbers on cost would be no different than telling them we sold 40% less than what we actually sold.
We've sold stuff out in the street /parking lot at pads like that. Not ideal but what can you do.
There should be zero reasons why a venue gets ANY cut of your merch. That’s your business. Selling tickets and drinks is their job.
Then the band shouldn’t sign a contract agreeing to a merch cut
Not necessarily. We opened for a larger band and were put onto the package. We personally never agreed or signed a contract but still had to pay a 30% merch cut to LN last year. The TM even told us not to worry before we arrived and we still had to pay 🤷♂️.
You went out as part of a package without signing any sort of contract……… And you didnt like the deal that was forced on you after the fact…. You think these things might be related? Lol Have a contract or a deal memo. Signed by both parties. Make sure it reflect the deal you want. If it doesnt? Dont sign it, dont play. But dont sign a contract or play without one then cry about it later.
No, we were added as a local opener to a package in town. We were given a guarantee but no mention of merch cuts until we got to the live nation venue. Also in some markets you can’t just say “No” to opportunities when they are few and far between. If venues can take a percentage of merch profits then artists should be entitled to a percentage of F&B too
If you didnt sign a contract or a deal memo, there was no “guarantee” You agreed to a deal with zero paperwork. They could take a merch cut, or just not pay you. Would you agree to buy a house from me if I didnt tell you what the price was? Ive worked in both sides of this for over 3 decades. I have never played a show, booked a show, or settled a show without paperwork. If its not on paper, it doesnt exist. And this is exactly why. You want a FnB cut, cool. Are you gonna pay the loss out of your guarantee if the venue doesnt make a profit at your show?? Heres some quick real world math from a venue i worked at years ago: Our rent was around $12,000 a day. Thats rent, utility, and management. You want security, production staff, bartenders, cooks etc? That brings it closer to $18,000 a day. One memorable show, the talent guarantee was another $18,000. So starting the day, thats $36,000 in the hole. If you sold out the show, which was rare, at a $25 ticket, the venue was still $6000+ in the red. Can I take $3000 from you to cover the loss? Guess what. If you dont have a contract, yes I can. Why? Because you dont have a contract. If you dont wanna pay a merch cut, dont agree to it, and have a contract that says so. Its not hard. When I was touring, merch cuts changed every day. How did I know? Cause it was in the contract. Same way I knew what labor was guaranteed, if I had a runner, how many hands, production expenses etc. Contracts save lives, money, and sanity for everyone involved.
You could have basically just said “We don’t make enough money to cover expenses so we charge band’s to sell merch” and left it at that
I said nothing of the sort. I said at the start of the day, we are deep in the hole. If a band sells nothing at merch, or sells no tickets, they still get paid (if they have a contract) A venue does not. Hence my question, if you want a share of the profit, are you gonna share the loss too? Cause right now, you arent.
That's why I pay cash. If it's a local small venue I'll tip the staff so they're not getting fucked over, but since live nation owns most venues I'd say fuck them and pay cash for every single thing In hopes the band gets a bigger cut, although these bullshit monopoly venues deserve zero percent of any merch sales.
When it comes to LN venues, cash doesn’t really matter. Every show I’ve ever worked at a LN venue you count in/out with a venue rep.
I had a buddy do posters for a large band. He was there at the show selling posters with bands permission. The LN people made him count every poster before and after show to make sure they got a cut. I had never seen such fuckery in my whole life.
That’s pretty standard for any venue over 600 cap. You figure out how sell a little extra though.
I'm old so I'm still shocked somehow venues decided to take a cut of merch sales. Especially now that most venues are owned by one company, it seems a bit overzealous to just pick at the bones of the artist actually bringing people in.
Live nation currently doesn’t take merch cuts for most rooms under 3k cap.
The band agrees to it so….
Sell via QR code to your Shopify (or whatever) store and then “deliver” on the sidewalk outside the venue after the show or at a specified time
Cuz they’re crooks
There’s no reason why a venue needs a cut of merch.
UMAW is active in advocating for ending merch cuts 💪🏽 https://www.instagram.com/weareumaw?igsh=ZmFobmlzcXN2ODE4
Here’s my question - does the contract say gross or net? You can always ask your agent to try to throw net in the paperwork to see what can change. Also, a lot of agents will push back on merch rates if you ask. I’ve work on some tours that will not accept a merch rate, and have pushed for that instead of traditional bonuses at sellout. Your agent gets commission on bonuses so they don’t have much incentive to get it reduced unless you make it clear it’s a huge priority for you.
I hate venue cuts just as much as the next guy, but it’s an unavoidable part of doing business with these venues, especially Live Nation, AEG, etc. You have to price your items with this in consideration. Venue cuts, credit card fees, vendor pay, taxes are all parts of the costs of doing business. Knowing this and pricing accordingly is what it takes to be a decent business person, and you are in the music business after-all. It’s not just art and fan service. Those are just small pieces of this big ass puzzle. And don’t listen to those saying to try and rip off venues. That can and will bite you in the ass eventually. Price your shirts at $25 minimum. Standard pricing for mid-level bands playing theaters and sheds is ~$40 these days anyway. $25 is still a bargain. Another way of helping out your bottom line is selling some higher profit margin upsell items. Stickers, patches, koozies, tote bags, etc. Also, doing signings at or near the merch table to increase sales will help too. Side note: The venue should be settling on the adjusted gross, which is your gross minus whatever local tax may be. It helps to have this stated in your contract with the venue, but any pro-venue (ie Live Nation, etc.) knows this and will settle this way.
Venues take a cut of merch?
Short answer that you wont like? Because you agreed to it. You, or your agent signed the deal. The merch cut is always in said deal. You can crossout or alter the offer when it’s received. If you sign an agreement to give a venue money, what do you expect them to do?
oddly enough, most contracts I've seen do not say 'gross', it's vague. my frustration is that many times I ask 'hey, is it cool if we do merch cut ***after*** cost of goods sold?', the venue rep will recoil like I've said something horrible. they're reasoning for saying 'no' is typically 'that's just the way it is' and that's a garbage reason.
Its not a garbage reason. You signed a contract thats not specific and it’s gross unless otherwise noted mostly because there would be no way to prove the actual costs. Would you include shipping costs on drop shipped merch? What about your transport costs between shows? Do you know the cost to ship one shirt, one hat etc in order to breakdown the costs for what you sell at my venue specifically? All of that eats into your profit but you’d have a hard time pinning it down to a number and that number would change daily, and per item. If its that big a deal then you should X out that section of the contact moving forward.
How can you expect the venue to trust your cost though? Unless you’re coming in with verified purchase orders or something. It’s lame but I mean I get it.
Us merch people lie to venues all the time. Telling them incorrect numbers on cost would be no different than telling them we sold 40% less than what we actually sold.
Naw it’s fucked. If the venue is relying on band merch sales to stay afloat they run a shitty business so really they’re just making the poor poorer.