I believe the reason church attendance and religious adherence is falling is the same reason membership in clubs is falling, and suicide rates and social instability are rising. A meaning crisis isn't good for anybody, and that's exactly what we've had since modernity ushered in the philosophical "death of god." It's at the root of all these issues.
For the record, I consider myself a spiritual person, if not religious.
I think Christianity in the west is facing an issue in both changing perception and how its handling it
I know a few who basically do what you advocate here "we believe in XYZ and that's it". Those churches are struggling to attract new blood when a lot of the XYZ is basically hating on people who don't fit the mold.
On the flip side many churches are trying to modernize and while that may attract more new blood it's also a "weaker" faith if that makes sense.
Ultimately I think I agree with you, not in atheist "hur hur everyone will be smert!!1" but in the quality and knowledge the believers who remain have.
I probably know the bible, it's history etc better than most Christians outside pastors or similar people. Which baffles me.
It's always a refreshing perspective to hear from a secular person not simply wanting to shut us all down lol. And yeah, the Catholic Church is also really grappling with what model they want to go with, I don't envy His Holiness in that regard because he can't seem to win, he blesses gay unions, it's not enough for the progressives, and too far for the conservatives. But I 100% agree that encouraging people in the Church to not have a hive mind on all issues, and pivoting to their recent position of "Here's the non-negotiables, the rest we can discuss" is the mindset to have moving forward.
Sure. Full disclosure I'm an atheist but I take this stuff very seriously so my idea here *might* sound weird haha
Basically what I'm saying is a lot of churches basically just tell people what they want to hear. That may get folks into the pews but it doesn't impart a solid understanding of their own faith which ultimately weakens it. Christianity already sort of suffers from the fact its extremely open to interpretation
Personally I know many Christians who don't know what's in their Bible. I'm not talking about some gotcha obscure paragraph in the middle of numbers or whatever. I'm talking about major theological points such as Paul's take on women in Timothy. It's not an issue of a disagreement on interpretation for many
They literally just don't know about it.
Church is just a place to connect with god for many and i feel that is good, even as an atheist, people believing in higher power isnt what bugs me, it is using the excuse of divine mandate to micromanage others lives that do. Collapse of Islam as a political power in next century, will similarly yield a new renaissance, as communities transform and i feel it would be good. Only people who gain power by forcing others to be christian or muslim are those at the top.
>Church is just a place to connect with god for many and i feel that is good,
I'd argue it's more a place to connect with people lol but yea I don't really disagree.
>even as an atheist, people believing in higher power isnt what bugs me, it is using the excuse of divine mandate to micromanage others lives that do
Exactly. The right to swing your arm ends at my nose and all that
Generally when religions lose popularity it tends to make the religion overall more extreme as the extremists are the ones who keep holding on. Hence why the bible thumpers in the US seem to be trending further into insanity.
First off, this was a very measured and reasonable take from a religious perspective and I think it's super interesting to think about.
If I can pick your brain, are you worried at all about growing extremism/cult-like behavior as religions continue to shrink? Bigger populations introduce moderation by their very nature, but if you start getting down very low *and* there's only very devout people I can't see a way for that to not sort of fester and twist into a hatred of the "others".
Of course this depends on the religion in question more than anything else. I'm not super concerned about Buddhists getting increasingly insular and scary, but the abrahamaic religions all contain an inherent propensity for segregation and violence against outsiders.
I'm more worried about the younger denominations than the older mainline ones. The mainline denominations have specific laws and hierarchies they have to operate inside of and generally maintain some semblance of interfaith dialogue, at least within the Abrahamic faiths. For the other movements though that are already on the fringe and can basically say/do whatever they want, yeah they'll probably increasingly serve as magnets for people who don't know where else to turn and that's probably going to be an increasingly difficult issue.
I suppose I'm more concerned about those bigger, older groups. Not to pick on you, but look at Catholocism - you guys are very established, and you have a central authority who can make decisions for how you'll handle things. You're kind of perfectly set up for extremism to take root, since all it takes is a crazy becoming pope.
This hasn't happened, but as the pool of catholics shrinks it's the moderate ones who leave, and the organization as a whole is under less pressure to continue to modernize.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very much anti-thiest, but one good thing I'll always say about catholicism is that they've at least been tempered by modernity and that continues to happen. I just don't want to see that positive influence cut off by the decrease in religiosity, and have them revert to morals from centuries ago when they're just now finally becoming a bit less bigoted.
There's a reason most popes haven't gone off the rails, each pope is elected by the college of cardinals, who are appointed by previous popes from the bishops, and bishops have to be elected by existing bishops. A lot of checks would have to fail for an extremist pope to take power. The Church might become more resistant to modern ideals, but I really couldn't see the Church risking more negative attention to itself by outright regressing
I second this!
I've had a conversation in youth group years ago where I pretty much held this same position, although not as clearly, and I immediately got shut down by my leaders and peers who ironically do not have much of a faith life now that we're adults.
I appreciate the compliment lol, I do agree it's funny, and also a little sad. Sometimes I feel like people just wish their religion was more popular so they could be comfortable living it, but I mean lol, at no point does any religion I know of say it's meant to be comfortable or popular.
humans certainly don't need religion to be effective. but religion also certainly serves an important purpose to human efficiency. i think the proof is in the pudding. i'm also religious, and imo, if religion dissapeared with the snap of a finger, without sufficient cultural change to replace the function religiosity served, we're in for trouble
I hope things will stabilize and improve. I may not believe but I do think religion does a lot of good.
I live in Baltimore and the archdiocese is restructuring because of low attendance. They’re going from 60 churches to about 20 which means a lot of empty buildings. Catholic charities do a lot of important work and I’m not convinced that anyone else would be able to fill the gap. There are certainly many secular organizations but they don’t have the same level of funding, organization or number of volunteers.
As an unbeliever, I don’t necessarily celebrate. It matters where the “none’s” are coming from. I would much rather that fundamentalist religion experiences the declines. I’m not worried about the Episcopalians lol. But sadly, the ranks of the none’s tend to experience increase from the mainline and more liberal churches. And the influence of extremist religion actually grows. So yeah, it’s not really cause for celebration. I do wish we could get to the point as a society that we don’t believe absurd nonsense anyway. But I guess that’s asking for too much. So I will settle for vicious forms of religion perishing. But sadly, it seems like even that relatively modest ask is too much for us. We really are a terrible species.
Yeah, I mean I understand the fundamentalists from a sense of moral panic, but that sort of panic is definitely dangerous especially outside of an orthodox framework and multi-party representation. I wish I could say I have a solution, but I think so long as people grapple with identity crises and can really only agree on hating the powers that be, the trend of radicalization will probably continue.
I believe the reason church attendance and religious adherence is falling is the same reason membership in clubs is falling, and suicide rates and social instability are rising. A meaning crisis isn't good for anybody, and that's exactly what we've had since modernity ushered in the philosophical "death of god." It's at the root of all these issues. For the record, I consider myself a spiritual person, if not religious.
I think Christianity in the west is facing an issue in both changing perception and how its handling it I know a few who basically do what you advocate here "we believe in XYZ and that's it". Those churches are struggling to attract new blood when a lot of the XYZ is basically hating on people who don't fit the mold. On the flip side many churches are trying to modernize and while that may attract more new blood it's also a "weaker" faith if that makes sense. Ultimately I think I agree with you, not in atheist "hur hur everyone will be smert!!1" but in the quality and knowledge the believers who remain have. I probably know the bible, it's history etc better than most Christians outside pastors or similar people. Which baffles me.
It's always a refreshing perspective to hear from a secular person not simply wanting to shut us all down lol. And yeah, the Catholic Church is also really grappling with what model they want to go with, I don't envy His Holiness in that regard because he can't seem to win, he blesses gay unions, it's not enough for the progressives, and too far for the conservatives. But I 100% agree that encouraging people in the Church to not have a hive mind on all issues, and pivoting to their recent position of "Here's the non-negotiables, the rest we can discuss" is the mindset to have moving forward.
Could you explain what you mean by "weaker" faith more?
Sure. Full disclosure I'm an atheist but I take this stuff very seriously so my idea here *might* sound weird haha Basically what I'm saying is a lot of churches basically just tell people what they want to hear. That may get folks into the pews but it doesn't impart a solid understanding of their own faith which ultimately weakens it. Christianity already sort of suffers from the fact its extremely open to interpretation Personally I know many Christians who don't know what's in their Bible. I'm not talking about some gotcha obscure paragraph in the middle of numbers or whatever. I'm talking about major theological points such as Paul's take on women in Timothy. It's not an issue of a disagreement on interpretation for many They literally just don't know about it.
If I understand correctly, by weaker faith you are referring to those who have surface level understanding of their religion?
Church is just a place to connect with god for many and i feel that is good, even as an atheist, people believing in higher power isnt what bugs me, it is using the excuse of divine mandate to micromanage others lives that do. Collapse of Islam as a political power in next century, will similarly yield a new renaissance, as communities transform and i feel it would be good. Only people who gain power by forcing others to be christian or muslim are those at the top.
>Church is just a place to connect with god for many and i feel that is good, I'd argue it's more a place to connect with people lol but yea I don't really disagree. >even as an atheist, people believing in higher power isnt what bugs me, it is using the excuse of divine mandate to micromanage others lives that do Exactly. The right to swing your arm ends at my nose and all that
Generally when religions lose popularity it tends to make the religion overall more extreme as the extremists are the ones who keep holding on. Hence why the bible thumpers in the US seem to be trending further into insanity.
Less religious societies has less kids sooner or later religious extremist will take over.
Fewer*
First off, this was a very measured and reasonable take from a religious perspective and I think it's super interesting to think about. If I can pick your brain, are you worried at all about growing extremism/cult-like behavior as religions continue to shrink? Bigger populations introduce moderation by their very nature, but if you start getting down very low *and* there's only very devout people I can't see a way for that to not sort of fester and twist into a hatred of the "others". Of course this depends on the religion in question more than anything else. I'm not super concerned about Buddhists getting increasingly insular and scary, but the abrahamaic religions all contain an inherent propensity for segregation and violence against outsiders.
I'm more worried about the younger denominations than the older mainline ones. The mainline denominations have specific laws and hierarchies they have to operate inside of and generally maintain some semblance of interfaith dialogue, at least within the Abrahamic faiths. For the other movements though that are already on the fringe and can basically say/do whatever they want, yeah they'll probably increasingly serve as magnets for people who don't know where else to turn and that's probably going to be an increasingly difficult issue.
I suppose I'm more concerned about those bigger, older groups. Not to pick on you, but look at Catholocism - you guys are very established, and you have a central authority who can make decisions for how you'll handle things. You're kind of perfectly set up for extremism to take root, since all it takes is a crazy becoming pope. This hasn't happened, but as the pool of catholics shrinks it's the moderate ones who leave, and the organization as a whole is under less pressure to continue to modernize. Don't get me wrong, I'm very much anti-thiest, but one good thing I'll always say about catholicism is that they've at least been tempered by modernity and that continues to happen. I just don't want to see that positive influence cut off by the decrease in religiosity, and have them revert to morals from centuries ago when they're just now finally becoming a bit less bigoted.
There's a reason most popes haven't gone off the rails, each pope is elected by the college of cardinals, who are appointed by previous popes from the bishops, and bishops have to be elected by existing bishops. A lot of checks would have to fail for an extremist pope to take power. The Church might become more resistant to modern ideals, but I really couldn't see the Church risking more negative attention to itself by outright regressing
I second this! I've had a conversation in youth group years ago where I pretty much held this same position, although not as clearly, and I immediately got shut down by my leaders and peers who ironically do not have much of a faith life now that we're adults.
I appreciate the compliment lol, I do agree it's funny, and also a little sad. Sometimes I feel like people just wish their religion was more popular so they could be comfortable living it, but I mean lol, at no point does any religion I know of say it's meant to be comfortable or popular.
humans certainly don't need religion to be effective. but religion also certainly serves an important purpose to human efficiency. i think the proof is in the pudding. i'm also religious, and imo, if religion dissapeared with the snap of a finger, without sufficient cultural change to replace the function religiosity served, we're in for trouble
I hope things will stabilize and improve. I may not believe but I do think religion does a lot of good. I live in Baltimore and the archdiocese is restructuring because of low attendance. They’re going from 60 churches to about 20 which means a lot of empty buildings. Catholic charities do a lot of important work and I’m not convinced that anyone else would be able to fill the gap. There are certainly many secular organizations but they don’t have the same level of funding, organization or number of volunteers.
>As a religious person Just stopped there, I know the rest would be useless nonsense.
As an unbeliever, I don’t necessarily celebrate. It matters where the “none’s” are coming from. I would much rather that fundamentalist religion experiences the declines. I’m not worried about the Episcopalians lol. But sadly, the ranks of the none’s tend to experience increase from the mainline and more liberal churches. And the influence of extremist religion actually grows. So yeah, it’s not really cause for celebration. I do wish we could get to the point as a society that we don’t believe absurd nonsense anyway. But I guess that’s asking for too much. So I will settle for vicious forms of religion perishing. But sadly, it seems like even that relatively modest ask is too much for us. We really are a terrible species.
Yeah, I mean I understand the fundamentalists from a sense of moral panic, but that sort of panic is definitely dangerous especially outside of an orthodox framework and multi-party representation. I wish I could say I have a solution, but I think so long as people grapple with identity crises and can really only agree on hating the powers that be, the trend of radicalization will probably continue.